Transcription
What's your experience when you're no longer "making it up" as a data stream from the system? That's what we call an out-of-body experience. You're no longer in this reality; you're in some other reality, and you're no longer processing data here, and that's all an out-of-body experience is. You're not here; you're somewhere else, and the data stream you get is not of your own creation; it's coming from elsewhere.
[Music]
Thank you. Welcome back, guys. I am here with Tom Campbell, the author of "My Big TOE," the trilogy, which I can't get enough of. I've listened to it I don't know how many times on Audible and read it twice. I can't wait to get my hands on Tom's Park, which is a new book coming out that helps us with our imagination as a tool to experience a larger consciousness. Tom, thank you so much for taking the time, sir.
Yeah, you're quite welcome, Trey. Good to be here again.
So I want to give a little recap of what I've learned, maybe a cliff notes version of my interpretation of "My Big TOE," and see what your thoughts are.
We live in a virtual reality. The computer and the player are not in this physical reality. The player is our individuated unit of consciousness, and the computer is the larger consciousness system. This reality was started by the larger consciousness system when it created a construct with rule sets, and then there was a simulation button that was hit. When that was hit, basically this construct turned into, evolved into what we are experiencing now as our evolution or physical reality because of those rule sets.
The body and this avatar are the individuated unit of consciousness's tool for growth and/or being, which results in the lowering of entropy and an increase in love. That is a very short version of your trilogy, but what are your thoughts?
Yeah, well, that was well said. For everybody who's read my stuff, that makes perfect sense, but to somebody who hasn't, it's probably terribly confusing.
I guess my question going with that, right? So going back to the avatar player, the individuated unit of consciousness is the player. How does the player or IUOC make decisions? Is it the IUOC making the decision, or is it the avatar?
Because I feel like when I am playing Sims, I am the player, and I'm making the decision, you know, with my mouse or controller. The avatar follows that instruction, makes the choice, and then has the obviously the impact of that choice. So who's making the decision?
You, the consciousness, are making all the choices and all the decisions. You—the consciousness—is where memory is. So the brain is just a virtual brain; it's not even computed most of the time unless somebody has their head cut open. Then they have to compute what a brain looks like, but other than that, you know, the brain's not even computed. It's not a thing. This is a virtual reality, and virtual characters are nothing more than mathematics displayed on a screen. You know, they don't have memory; they don't make choices. Mathematics displayed on a screen doesn't remember things.
All of that action is going on inside of consciousness—in your individuated unit of consciousness, or if we want to go down one more level in the metaphor, in a free will awareness unit. So the IUOC, I think, is the same thing that Bob Monroe calls the "I." Bruce Moen calls it the "disc," I think it was.
So basically, it is a collection of your experiences here on Earth that reside outside of this physical reality. Is that right?
Yeah, well, it's more than just a collection of your experiences. A collection of your experiences, you know, could be in a library someplace, but your IUOC is more than that. Your IUOC is a piece of consciousness. It has free will; it's aware; it's conscious. It does what consciousness does. It communicates; it connects; it's conscious; it's aware.
And I guess in our own local metaphors, we say it's alive. You know, it’s not just judged as an accumulation of experiences, but it does do that. It not only accumulates those experiences, but it learns from them. Often, you can learn more by looking at a set of things than you can by just looking at each individual thing in that set, seeing the trends, where you're going, what are the problems—all those things. It decides, it looks at, and then decides what to do next.
So the IUOC is us—that’s who we are, the consciousness. But it partitions a piece of it and sends it down to the—I don't know the terminology, just from my own experience and my indoctrination and my beliefs. It partitions a section, a piece of it off, and sends it down into this physical reality where we experience this avatar, this reality for ourselves, where we're using this as a tool for our lowering of the entropy and our progression as a being in love.
That's correct.
So this being that I'm experiencing, this, you know, when I can quiet the mind and I can get to that point of consciousness—that being level. Is that my being as consciousness, or is that my being of the IUOC, or is that, again, the avatar's being?
That's the avatar. The avatar doesn't have a being. No, the avatar doesn’t—isn't conscious. The avatar is just mathematics displayed in a data stream. Now, in your games, that data stream comes to your computer and lights up, say, a million pixels on your screen, and then you interpret that data to be whatever that world is and all the things that are in it.
Well, it's like that. You get a data stream from the larger conscious system and you interpret that data to be this reality. So the avatar itself, you know, if you're playing an elf in World of Warcraft, the elf doesn't remember anything; the elf doesn't make any choices. The elf, um, doesn't exist. It's just a virtual elf that is pixels on a screen. That's all the elf is—pixels on the screen.
And your physical body is just like that. Your physical body is like pixels on the screen. That's why the rendering engine that renders this virtuality does not have to render a brain in your head or a liver or a heart or oxygen in the air or any of that sort of thing. It isn't rendered unless it's actually measured.
Now, if you measure—if you cut open a skull or have some kind of a meter that measures oxygen in the air, then the system will make that meter read 20% oxygen in the air or whatever.
So, the thing that's real is the consciousness. The rest of it is eye candy in order to provide us with interesting choices—choices that have consequences and significance to our, you know, significant choices that we can grow by.
That's the whole point of being here: it's us making those choices and evolving or evolving based on how well we make the choices. So in order to make good choices, in order to have an array of choices, which I call the decision space—everybody has a decision space.
Well, we log on to this virtual reality because now our choices are much more significant. Now, here in this virtual reality, we have life and death choices, we have succeed-and-fail choices, we have a lot of significant choices—moral choices, ethical choices—all the time, relationship choices, how we affect other people, how other people affect us.
And all of that then makes a really fine schoolhouse, a place that you can grow because you have so many interesting choices. If you didn't have this virtual reality, your choices would be, you know, what to communicate, who to get data from, and what data to send, and that's about all of it. There wouldn't be the same level of significance and learning in those choices. It would all stay very neutral almost all the time, whereas here we're challenged almost all of the time.
Yeah, we definitely are. Well, you know, during those challenges, it's like, you know, a lot of people want to call it God or you want to call the larger consciousness system. We usually tend to—we get to a point where the fire becomes too hot, and we need help.
How do we develop a more meaningful relationship with the larger consciousness system or God, whatever you want to call that source? How do we make it to where we are communicating with it and allowing it to know our intentions and, you know, receive guidance from that?
Well, the main thing is to just have that interest, to have that intention that you want to make that connection. You want to grow; you want to lower your entropy; you want to become love; you want to get rid of your fear. And if you have that as a sincere being-level intention—you really do want it, you're not just saying that because you think it's the right thing to say, but you really do mean it—then that basically starts making that connection.
And as you do things, as you make choices in life, it will reflect that desire to grow up and to get rid of your fear. And as you grow, as you succeed in doing that, the system will start working with you. You know, you become—you know, use the phrase out of law enforcement—you become a person of interest to the LCS because you're trying.
Because the larger conscious system wants you to succeed; it needs you to succeed as we are part of it. It's not like we're a separate thing altogether; we're just a piece of that system. So as we evolve, it evolves. We're part of its strategy for its own evolution, so it wants us to succeed.
And in as much as it can be helpful to us and help us succeed, it'll try to do that. But if you're just not interested and you have no idea why you're here, or what the point is, or anything else, and you're just kind of randomly bouncing around, then you're not really so much a person of interest because there's not much help the system can be. Then, even if the system contacted you, you'd blow it off as, uh, you know, just some crazy thing that went through your head, and you wouldn't pay any attention to it.
So you get to be a person of interest to the system just by learning, growing up, and getting serious, trying, and then things begin to happen for you.
I like that—how you show your—like you have to show it that you're serious, right? Like you can't just—I obviously the intent comes through, and you keep going back to, like, to show it that you're meaningful in this, and I like that because it's not like something where—I don't know, I guess maybe I like the challenge, or maybe I like—maybe it's the ego, I don't know—but it's like I like being able to work for something, right?
Like to really show it because I feel like when I do that, like, it's gonna make me work, and the more that I work for it, the more that I shed the ego, the more that I'm able to find out who I am because, like, with that comes frustration, right?
Like, because it's like I'm trying to meditate, get to that point of consciousness, and have these experiences, and be able to get an out-of-body experience or use my imagination to go further into, you know, into these conversations with beings or myself and learn more about me.
But when it—it gives me, like, little synchronicities, right? Like, it is there; it is helping me. But then when I—I know that the out-of-body experience is a one-player game where you can go and you can really use that as a tool to really experience who you are.
And it seems like everyone who writes about it has these experiences that are just life-changing, and that's one of my goals. But I know there are fears there because I haven't been able to experience that. I'm not— you know, for whatever reason, I'm going to continue to work. You know, I keep telling the larger consciousness system that I'm going to keep trying for the rest of my life to have an out-of-body experience. If it doesn't happen, what—it doesn't matter.
Like, I'm not looking at it as a failure; I'm looking at it as me working on myself. That's why, I guess, that's why I like it, is because, like, the more that I want to have—I have this goal, and the more that I work towards it, and the more that I don't receive it, I guess I kind of—it reminds me that I still have things to work on, if that makes sense.
Well, it's important that we distinguish between acting and being. You see, if it was just a matter of intellectually processing information and intellectually going there and saying, "Okay, I'm going to be more loving, more caring, and I'm going to be kind," "See, oh, that little lady there—I need some help. Let me go help her," and "I'm going to join some group of people that volunteer, and I'm going to help them," I'm doing the right thing.
Well, if you do that all from your intellect—in other words, you're doing it because you think you should—it's not gonna help you grow up much. That's not the point. If you're doing it because you really do want to help people, and that little old lady that needs the help really is important to you—not just so you can show what a good person you are, but she's important in herself.
So if all we did was act the part or intellectualize the part, then everybody would be grown up. You know, everybody could grow up real quickly. You can't— you know, that's not the point; that doesn't help. Well, it may help, but it doesn't take you very far. You have to be it. You have to—it has to be sincere, it has to be at the being level. That's the key.
So it's not a matter of just saying, "Okay, I'd like to do this. Come help me." You know, that's you wanting to have an adventure. But if it's like you said more—this is part of my path. This is part of my growing up. I'd like, you know, I'd like to grow and experience these things and develop myself.
That's a totally different thing. And, you know, one of them is kind of playing at growing up and pretending, and the other one is actually growing up. But the growing up takes some time.
It's not a quick process. You grow up by changing who you are. You know, that's true of growing up anywhere. Even if we grow up here physically, and our avatar grows up, you know, we have to change who we are. We change our perspective; we change how we see the world; we become a different person.
We're not just that same, you know, eight-year-old, except we're smarter. We've changed. We don't see the world the way that eight-year-old saw the world. We are different in the way we deal with things. So you have to change yourself as you grow up.
It's not just thinking about it. Otherwise, you could read a book and grow up just because you read the book and you say, "Oh, well, I understand this all right now, and I'm growing up." But reading the book doesn't change anything unless that book motivates you to change yourself—get rid of those fears, get rid of that ego, get rid of those beliefs.
And then if you actually get rid of the fear, now you're a different person, and now you're growing up.
I would agree with your attitude there. Having an out-of-body experience is an interesting thing; it's a fun thing, and it can be educational. You can learn from it. And the practice of being able to do it—practicing to be able to do it—is a way of practicing opening your intuitive side and getting your intellectual side to just sit down and listen. That's an important part of, you know, of growing up.
But it isn't necessary. It isn't necessary. And when you're ready, it'll happen. You just have to get ready. So it's not like, "Well, I've got to get the perfect technique for going out of body. If I just got the perfect technique, then I do, you know, I'd follow the prescription, and I take all the steps, and bingo, I'd be done."
It doesn't work like that. It's not a technique; it's not something you do. It's something that you allow to happen. You start—you let go of your sense data; you stop processing your sense data in the physical world, and you start opening yourself to consciousness—just whatever is there in consciousness.
Then you learn to play with that until you can get around in consciousness. It takes a while. But all of the paranormal things—like out-of-body experiences and remote viewing and seeing auras and, you know, going into the past probable future databases and all that stuff—all happens on the intuitive side. None of it happens on the intellectual side.
You don't think your way into any of that; you have to be it. And it's not that there's something special you have to do. What you have to do is stop doing the things that prohibit it—that get in the way.
So it's not a matter of going out and getting a better technique; it's just a matter of letting go of the stuff that's in the way. That takes time because, generally, what's in the way are our beliefs, our ego, and our fears. That's the stuff that's in the way.
Yeah, so you have to let that go. So the first thing somebody should do is just work on those fears—work on those fears, work on the beliefs, work on that ego. And as you get rid of that, the going out of body gets simpler and simpler and simpler, to where if you offload enough of it, going out of body isn't something you have to really prepare for, and you know, lie down and get into a meditation state to do.
Just do it! You know, in tenths of a second, you can just be someplace else, and you can be here at the same time.
Well, is it the same thing as your imagination? Because I know you said that when you're using—you know, you don't have to be—we have these beliefs about what out-of-body is, right? But can you experience the same phenomena in out-of-body as your imagination?
Yes, it's similar. Let's put it this way: they're not the same. You have—there are three different ways that you can get a data stream, okay? Back to the idea this is a virtual reality. Our reality is generated by a data stream, just like it is for you if you're a player.
Now, you could be playing The Sims and World of Warcraft both at the same time. You could have two computers and two monitors sitting on your desk and you could have both of those games up, and you could switch from one to the other. Go back and forth, all you'd have to do is shift your attention.
You pay attention to the URL—fronting through the woods—and then pay attention to your Sims guy getting a beer out of the refrigerator. You just, you know, it's wherever you put your focus would be the game that you’d be paying attention to. Or you could kind of back off and pay half attention to both of them at the same time.
Well, it's the same kind of thing, you know, with our consciousness. So right now, we're involved in this virtual reality—not World of Warcraft or Sims, but the physical universe. We're here in this avatar called our physical body. All you need to do is take your focus and put it elsewhere, get another data stream.
You know, like the data stream for World of Warcraft, a data stream for Sims. Get a different data stream, and now you are interpreting that data to be a different reality. It's a different place, different space, different rules, different means, and it's just a different data stream.
So, three places you can get data streams from: one, you can get some from yourself. You are consciousness; you can create information. That's what consciousness can do; that's an attribute of consciousness. So, you can create information.
The second is you can get it from some other IUOC because they're conscious too and they can create information. And lastly, you can get it from the larger consciousness system. So if there’s somebody out there thinking about you and sending you a message, well, you will get that message at some level—maybe not in your intellectual mind, but you'll get that at some level.
So that's getting a data stream from some other IUOC. Now, if you get it from the larger consciousness system, then you'd call that an out-of-body. It comes from the larger consciousness system; that's just a different reality frame than this one.
So now you've switched reality frames. And if you get into your imagination, it's a similar thing. Let's say you imagine something, some event, some circumstance, some conversation, or meeting a person or doing something, then you—and you're making that up—well, you're creating that information.
Now if you get involved in that imaginative creating to the point that you stop making it up and it just happens on its own—which typically daydreams are like that. You know, the daydream starts out—the first two or three minutes of the daydream, you're playing all sides. You know, if it's a conversation, you're doing both sides of the conversation or whatever; you're making the whole thing up.
But then as you get involved in it, a couple of things happen. One, the more deeply you get involved in that imagination, you start letting go of physical sense data. You stop being aware of what's around you; you stop being aware that you're sitting in a chair or that, you know, there's traffic in the street outside your home. You just don't process it.
It's still there, and if you thought about it, oh yeah, here's my chair; yeah, I hear the traffic. But you stop processing it—same thing you do when you read a good book. If you read a good book, you stop processing your sense data, and now you start processing all the data that's coming from that book.
You see? So when you get into your imagination in a way that you kind of lose track of the fact that it's your imagination and the story just starts to unfold on its own, well, when that happens, you're no longer making it up. Now you've got a data stream from the larger consciousness system.
It can pick right up on whatever story you were imagining and it can start to send you the data stream. So in a way, the larger consciousness system hijacks your daydream and starts sending you the data stream. And what you—the way you feel about it is you start this daydream and you get more and more involved in it.
The daily stuff, your sense data, starts to fall away. It's just you in the daydream, and pretty soon, the daydream's taking on a life of its own. The character you're talking to says things that surprise you, rather than just you, you know, making up all the conversation.
And it takes twists and turns that force you to make choices. In those choices, you have a chance to grow up. That's what growing up is about—making choices. So it gives you another reality frame in which you make choices.
So a daydream can easily turn into an out-of-body experience just at the point where you stop making up the daydream, and it becomes a data stream from the LCS.
Now, if you try to pay attention to that—if you're into it, like: "Ah, I'm going to catch that transition point. I'm going to be making up this daydream, and then every 10 seconds I'll stop and say, 'Well, is this just me, or is it coming from outside of me?'"
Well, is this just me? And you want to spot that transition point. It'll never happen because your intellect will get in the way. You have to just experience. Let the experience go however it does. Don't try to—you know, don't try to capture it. Don't try to keep testing whether I'm making this up or is it outside of me. Just let that go; just experience.
And if you do that, then what's your experience when you're no longer making it up? It's a data stream from the system, and that's what we call an out-of-body experience. You're no longer in this reality; you're in some other reality, and you're no longer processing data here.
And that's all an out-of-body experience is. You're not here; you're somewhere else, and the data stream you get is not of your own creation; it's coming from elsewhere.
I like that because using my imagination, it's hard at first because you have to use that mental muscle to create that environment or that experience. And sometimes it's hard to hold onto it because you get distracted with other things—like something happens and you hear something, and you're out of it.
I'm assuming, because I've never had an out-of-body experience, but when you make that transition, like, your awareness is totally—I think—I feel like it's different. Just from—like I've had, like, little pockets of success where I'm doing meditation, and all of a sudden I'm seeing things that look holographic.
Like, I'll see—like I remember one time I woke up out of a dream, and it was a guy chasing me. And like, I was waking up in the middle of the night, and as I'm waking up, coming back into this reality, he looks like almost a ghostly figure—almost like floating away, flying somewhere else.
And then I'm like, kind of like, "Hmm, that was so..." It didn't—it wasn't my imagination, because my imagination, like, I feel like it's very hazy and it's not very 3D. This person looked very 3D to me. So I feel like there is a different type of awareness when you're out of body as opposed to your imagination.
Well, mostly that difference has to do with just not being very practiced. You see, let’s say you take your imagination, and it's kind of touch and go because you have to work. If you say it's an effort, you kind of work to put all that stuff out there—well, go back and do it again—same story or similar story.
Okay, do it again and do it again, and pretty soon, after you’ve done it 10, 15, 20 times, you're so familiar with that storyline, you're so familiar with where that goes that you really stop thinking about it. You start to just do it out of habit, do it at a rote, and then now you're having this experience without thinking about it.
Now, at that point, you'll find that your imagination is just as clear and focused as it would be when you're here because you're not really working to produce it; it's just coming. That's when you drift into the out-of-body experience from the imagination.
It's that sort of thing. So like in Tom's Park, what the instructions are is don't expect success on the first time. This is something you have to go do and do again and do again. And as you keep doing these things and you get very used to them, you'll start to let go. Your intellect will get bored and will sit down someplace and take a nap, and then things really start to happen at that point.
But, so it’s an iterative process that you have to keep doing. And I tell people in the Tom's Park thing, I said, you don't have to meditate. You know, you can use binaural beats if you want, but you don't have to. You don't have to relax; you don't have to do anything. Just sit down and start doing it!
You know, start with your imagination, and just naturally, you'll end up letting go of your sense data because you'll be so focused on the daydream. And then pretty soon after that, you'll let go of the daydream too, and you'll just get a data stream, and it'll go off.
But it may not happen your first time; it may have been your 20th time when your imagination story is so familiar that you stop, and your intellect sits down. You don't need your intellect anymore. And then that's about you're 99 percent there. When you get to that point that your intellect sits down and butts out, because then the system can come right in and give you a data stream, and you're off—you're going on an out-of-body experience.
So it's a transition that you'll never notice. You won't say, "Ah, yeah, I found a little bump; that's when I make the transition." You know, it won't be like that. But you'll notice that after a while, you'll say, "Oh, gee, for the last 10 minutes, I've been doing all this stuff and not thinking about it at all."
Well, then you'll know. I'm not in Kansas anymore, you know? This is—I'm in a different reality now. Alright, now where do I want to go? You know, what do I want to do?
So yeah, that's how the imagination and the out-of-body experience are connected. They're two different things. One is a data stream that you're creating, and the other is a data stream that's being created outside of you.
Well, when we start doing these processes, right? Like, I guess one explain to people that are listening: what point consciousness is because a lot of these experiences, this phenomena happens when you're in this state.
Okay, point consciousness is defined as when you exist only as a point of consciousness. It's—I call it the Descartes moment: "I think, therefore I am," or "I'm conscious, therefore I'm aware." You know, it would really be a better way to say it.
So it's a place where you let go of your sense data. You know, you have five senses; you know, you see, you hear, you smell, you taste, you feel, and you just let all that go to where you're not processing any of that data. It's still there if you want to process it. It's not that your eardrums, you know, stop working. You know, somebody honks their horn outside, you know, your eardrum is processing that; it's just you're not paying attention to it.
Just like I say you do when you're reading a really good book. You lose the world when you're reading a really good book, and you don't notice that people are walking around behind you; that things are going on, and even if there's a real quiet conversation, you don't notice it because you're so focused on that book.
So it's the same way. Point consciousness is simply you letting go of your sense data and having no thoughts. In other words, your intellect is not constantly yammering. Your intellect isn't saying, "Oh, am I on point consciousness now? Is this really point consciousness? How do I know?" You know, that's your intellect. Your intellect wants to judge and analyze and assess, and it's constantly doing that stuff. If it is, then that's really not point consciousness.
You need to be able to just not be here, but not have your intellect yammering away. So if your intellect is wondering, you know, "What am I going to have for supper tonight?" And, you know, "What, you know, well my wife's birthday is coming up; I should get her something."
And if you get all this stuff going on in your mind, then you’re not there yet. You just need to have an empty mind and have no sense data. And where does that leave you? A point of awareness floating in a black void. You're not seeing anything; you're not hearing anything; you're not doing anything—you're just a point of consciousness floating in a void.
So it's called point consciousness. Some people have a hard time getting just that specific of a state, but it doesn't matter. The point consciousness is just that— the idea that you let go of your sense data and that your mind is not out of control, yammering about everything going on—that your intellect just sits down.
Your intellect doesn't have to go to sleep; you know, it doesn't have to be blotted out. It could be there; it just isn't saying anything. It's not analyzing or judging or trying to, you know, decide whether you're there or not. So you just exist there.
Now, a lot of people have a problem with that intellect because they are so used to running their lives from their intellect that it's hard for them to just experience. You see, if you're just experiencing, you don't have to say, "Oh, is this real? Am I really experiencing that, or did I make that up? Where—you know, where is that coming from?"
That's the intellect trying to judge and assess. If you just can have an experience and not wonder or care where it is coming from or why am I having that experience, am I doing it right? Just have the experience—that is the way you need to start.
Because until you have done this for a while—many, many times—you can't make those judgments. You can't make that analysis. You know, "Am I doing it right? Is this the right thing? Is this really out of body? You know, what's going on here? How can I tell?"
You can't—you’re not going to be able to tell. So you have to just tell that intellect: stop judging it, stop assessing it, stop trying to figure it out, stop trying to do it. Just experience; let the experience flow.
Now with experience, and you've done this a few hundred times, you will start to get good at knowing where you are and when that transition occurs, and you'll just feel it. And bingo, you'll know you're off. You know, and that stuff will all start to sort out.
Because you'll have enough experience to be able to make sense of it. Where people make their big mistake is wanting to make sense of it and wanting to get it right the first time, but you don't have any experience.
So you want to go talk to your dead Uncle Fred. So you say, "Hey, Uncle Freddie, out there," and you hear a reply back. And immediately your intellect says, "Oh, was that really Uncle Fred, or did I just make that up?"
Well, you've just chased the whole thing away. You've destroyed it. Go ahead; don't worry if it's your imagination. If your imagination is, just go with it! Go with that flow because eventually, when you relax, the system's gonna take over.
And it's not going to be your imagination, and how will I know when that happens? Don't think about it; don't worry about it—just have the experience later!
Now, after you've had 100 experiences, you can start—you can sort it out. A lot of things will make sense. You'll get—you'll get a sense for the fact that it feels very different, you know? And it'll feel different, whether it's another IUOC or whether it's the larger consciousness system or what.
You'll have a sense for how all that is different, just like we listen to somebody's voice on a telephone, and we're good at identifying somebody's voice we know, you know, without seeing them.
And you know that's not necessarily an easy thing to do. You know, if you didn't know—you know, if you weren't familiar with them, you would have no idea. But in time, with enough experience, you can do some—you can sort things through to a very fine, precise level, just like you can pick, "Oh yeah, that's my— you know, that's my mother's voice. Gee, Mom, I didn't know you were in town!"
You can pick things out because—you can't do that on day one. You have to have a lot of experience, and it's the same with the out-of-body experience.
So people want to immediately judge what they're doing; they want to know that it's not just their imagination. They want to know that they're doing this. So their intellect comes along for the ride and questions them the whole time, and that prevents anything from happening.
So just have the experience; let it go. Then have another experience, then another, and eventually, it'll start to form patterns, and you'll be able to pull it together.
I love all of that. I think, you know, the fear, right? The wanting to know—to say, “I need to know if this is true,” because I fear that if I’m going crazy, you know, or a belief—I need to believe that this is true because I have a fear that, you know, I don’t know what really is happening around me, right?
But going back to just allowing it to be, I have synchronicities quite a bit, right? They’re metaphors that I receive, and I don’t want to mention what it is because I don’t know how the law of uncertainty works with the larger consciousness system. So I don’t want to name it, and then it not happen again.
But I see metaphors, or I see images, or I see things that keep reappearing in my reality that are significantly statistically significant in my life because it happens not by chance alone. So is that my higher—not my higher self, but my individuated unit of consciousness giving me signs?
Because like Bob Monroe, when he was talking about his out-of-body experiences, it was him helping him the entire time. It wasn't necessarily something else outside of him; it was him. So how often do we experience or communicate with the larger consciousness system as opposed to our individuated unit of consciousness?
And then the second question—I know there's a lot in there—the second question of that is, do we have to speak in metaphors to them like we receive in our reality? Like when I see something, do I have to—do, I guess it made the dumbest question you ever heard, but can I speak the English language to them, or do I have to give them metaphors too?
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Well, typically, you communicate kind of metaphorically. You know, metaphors work pretty well, but language is not a problem. You can—you can think in any language, you know. Even your metaphors are in language, right? Sure, metaphors in English or French or Spanish or something.
Typically, what you get is metaphorical, but not always. Sometimes you'll hear a voice, and a voice will be speaking your language, and it'll be just as clear as if somebody was sitting in a room next to you talking. So it's not always metaphorical; sometimes it's exact—it's language; sometimes it's written down. You can read things, and but most of the time, your experiences are metaphorical.
That's true of your dreams as well. Most of your dreams are all metaphorical; that's an easier way to communicate. It's a much easier way to communicate. It’s more efficient—it goes direct to the intuitive side, not to the intellectual side. The intellectual side wants all the data in line, you know? It’s all the little logical pieces all sitting in a nice neat line. This one leads to the next, to the next one. But your intuitive side doesn't work that way.
Your intuitive side just won't fall at once—gets a whole paragraph, maybe even a whole book. It's just suddenly, you know, that this is the way it is or this is going to happen or this has happened or whatever, and you just get these downgrades because you get a lot of meaning all at one time—it tends to be wrapped up in metaphors.
It's not like you get 400 pages of text. You know, that would be a little hard to process. It would take a long time. So, you don't get 400 pages of text. You get a just a download where you get an understanding, where you know things. And then you ask questions like, "Oh, well, that's interesting, but what about this?" and "What about the other thing?" Bing—you know that!
So you can ask the questions; you can lead it, and flush it out. So that's typically the way it works; it works in ideas and concepts rather than, you know, written pages or even speech. But not always. I've read things; I've heard any number of, you know, things that were verbal as well as metaphorical.
So the first question was how much is you talking to your IUOC, you, the free will awareness unit, talking to your IUOC, and how much is you talking to the larger consciousness system? I would say for the most part, it's easier if we just say that you're talking to the larger consciousness system and let that go.
Of course, we're all part of that larger consciousness system. So talking to anything, we're really talking to the larger consciousness system one way of thinking of us being a part—if you’re a computer type, and I use a lot of computer analogies in my model just because they're contemporary.
A lot of people understand them, and they just happen to work really well because consciousness is an information system. So information system metaphors just really fit nicely. So think in a computer, what we call a virtual machine—what that is, is you have a computer that can emulate a smaller computer inside of itself.
Now, I remember many years ago, the Macs would have a PC emulator in them so that if you had a Mac, you could run PC software. Because at that time, Mac had a pretty small percentage of, you know, of the software. So, Mac people wanted to run that PC software, so they actually emulated a PC inside the Mac.
So it just means that the Mac was configured so that it looked like and accepted all the inputs of a PC and it would output the things the PC would output. So that means it's emulated the PC inside the Mac.
Well, we are just a small chunk of consciousness that's very much like the larger consciousness system, except a lot smaller. We have free will; we have memory; we have experiences we've been through through this virtual reality entropy reduction trainer a lot of times, and all those experiences are there for us to learn from.
So we have all of this, but we're just a virtual machine inside the larger consciousness system—just a piece. Now here we are, this IUOC—individuated unit of consciousness—just a virtual machine inside the bigger machine, and we do the same thing. We create a little subset of ourselves, and that's then the free will awareness unit.
It's like we create a little virtual machine of ourselves, and that's the one we plug into the avatar because that stays plugged into the avatar all the time. It doesn't have the bigger perspective of the IUOC; it has only the perspective of the avatar.
And that free will awareness unit doesn't have any memory. All it has is quality; it comes in with the quality; you know, with the quality of consciousness—how much it has evolved up to that point. And it takes that with it, but it doesn't take any specific memory.
For the most part, so the first time that baby cries and hears its parents talking, then that's its first memory. So it's easy for that free will awareness unit to think it is the avatar because all the experience that it knows that it ever had was as that avatar.
So it identifies as the avatar. As to our conscious—and our free will awareness identifies as its body, but it’s not. It’s a subset of a piece of consciousness that’s a subset of another piece of consciousness—so it’s the subset of the IUOC, and the IUOC is a subset of the system.
So that's kind of the way it works, but all of it is really the system. So when we say, you know, we'll be talking to the IUOC or the system, we're really talking to the system fundamentally, no matter what we're talking to, because the IUOC is a piece of the system.
So it's just—I just find it easier to just think of it as you're talking to the system most of the time, and that IUOC is just there as a collector of experience. It collects all the experiences that you have as you go through this entropy reduction trainer called the physical universe.
So when our experience packet here ends and we switch data streams, however we're held here in this avatar by whatever restraint, that loosens, and it disappears. Now we are free of this avatar. Did we become that IUOC, or where do we go from there?
Yeah, when we start to try—we, as soon as we die here, that partition that we have between the IUOC and the free will awareness unit—that partition starts to dissolve. So the body dies; the free will awareness unit that was making choices for that body starts to integrate back into its IUOC.
It just disappears. Then when it’s ready for a new incarnation, a new partition is put down, and a new free will awareness unit is created, and that goes and interacts—makes choices for another avatar. So that's the way that works.
Yes, it just disappears. So at first, when you die, for the first few instances, you're very much aware of the life you've just been in and what happened to end it—how you've been sick or you've just been run over by a truck or, you know, something dramatic happened or not—you’re aware of all of that.
But that begins to fade like a dream. It's not something that stays clear for very long. The more you let it go and stop thinking about it, the quicker it fades. If you keep—if you're obsessed with it—if there’s something about that last life you just can't let go of, you're really obsessed with it, then it takes a little longer.
It stays a bit because you stay focused on it, but as you let it go, it just kind of disappears. And pretty soon, you don't think about it at all; it's just gone—just like dreams are like that. You know, you have a dream, and this instance you wake up; it's perfectly clear. And two minutes later, not so clear.
Five minutes later, it's getting kind of fuzzy. You know, three or four hours later, you only got the highlights. And you know, a day later, you kind of remember you had the dream, but you don't really remember much about it.
You know, that's sort of the way dreams work. Well, that's the same way that this works: when you die, you kind of lose your connection with this reality reasonably quickly. It just fades like a dream and goes away.
And then you start thinking about, "Well, what do I want to do next?" And well, that reminds me of like—or that story reminds the part of Bob Monroe's book where he goes to his origination point and somehow reverse-engineers his consciousness to come back, however he did that.
And now, he's starting to awaken from a dream, and now he's in a different reality or dimension where he's like smaller than the rest of whatever they are—units of consciousness, and they're like, "You don't have any, you know, where are your gifts? You don't have any gifts."
And then he experiences the emitter. Like, have you ever had that experience where—
No, no, I wouldn’t. I have not had those kinds of experiences that Bob had. I think Bob, you know, like everybody who gets information, you have to interpret that information. Yes, the system sends you data, but you have to interpret it, and you have to interpret it in terms of what you understand.
So if you have no previous experience, then your interpretation can be a little wild because you don't really have any firm way to interpret it. So you kind of do the best pattern match you can, and the best thing you can make up to make sense of it.
So when you're talking about somebody getting a data stream that's out of body, well, it's very likely they're doing things and running into things that are not common. These aren't things that they do and run into every day. These are things that are right out on the fringe of their experience.
So for them to interpret that, a lot of that interpretation has to do with their own knowledge, their own beliefs, their own fears—you know, who they are as an individual.
So what you hear from somebody who's bringing back that kind of information is always their interpretation based on their fears, their knowledge, their expectations—all of that stuff. They can't help it. I mean, it's not that they're, you know, a bad interpreter because they don't tell the truth. The truth to them is what they interpret. Just like here, you know, we interpret things here, and our reality—our truth is what we interpret—not necessarily what's there; it’s, you know, that's the way it is everywhere.
So Bob didn't have a concept of the larger consciousness system and how it might interact and relate to an individual unit of consciousness. That was not part of his mindset; he didn't have that idea.
And without that idea, he had to come up with other explanations of the things—of the information he got. So it's, um, so no, I—you know, he had himself coming back and interacting with himself, and it was like this chain of his selves trying to help—
You might think older selves helping younger selves or helping other selves grow up again. So he had this chain of events that were really all him, and that was his best interpretation of that.
And I had that exact same experience. I wouldn't have interpreted it that way. It would have been a different interpretation. So that's just—that's this Bob's interpretation.
You know, Bob did create a bit of a controversy and a, can I say, maybe even a, you know, some very negative information just because of the way he interpreted the thing about loosh. I don't know if you remember the loosh part of Bob's book, but he basically said that he realized that, you know, we humans were like farm animals, and we were making loosh and there were these bigger, more superior beings outside of us that were harvesting the loosh.
Yeah, that our reality was nothing more than a loosh farm. You know, that was his interpretation—but you—that was, he missed the point of what they were trying to tell him.
And because he came out of an Ohio farm—that's his—that's his background. He could—that was a metaphor that he could, you know, fit his data. But it was just the wrong metaphor. What he was being told was about the larger consciousness system and us, and we are lowering our entropy. We're increasing the quality of our consciousness, and as we do that, the larger consciousness system—that's the, you know, the big guys up above—the larger consciousness system is evolving and growing too.
And as we evolve, it evolves. So that's the picture that he was getting of the larger consciousness system and us all evolving together.
And we, at our level, are lowering our entropy, but that helps the system lower its entropy as well and that the system created this virtual reality for us just so we could evolve as part of its own evolution.
Well, he took that idea and turned it into we were a bunch of cattle making loosh on the loosh farm, and the big thing up above us was sucking up that loosh and, you know, getting an advantage from it.
He missed the metaphor there; he put the wrong one in. So now you have people, you know, prison planet, and do not go to the light, and all that nonsense basically based on that misunderstanding he had.
So Bob was a good explorer, and he didn’t have a lot of beliefs that warped his, you know, what he saw or warped his interpretation, so he had a pretty good mind—pretty empty of a lot of junk. So he was good at it, but still there were a little—there were a lot of things that were just representative of his belief.
Like he stuck his hand in a hole, right? And he got snagged with a hook. Well, that's fear. That was his fear of the unknown. He got stuck behind a wall; he was out of body, and then he came to this wall, and he couldn't get over it, couldn't get around it, couldn't get under it.
Oh no, that was his fear of not being able to get back through his body. So these things were just his fears. When you're in that—when you're in that out-of-body state, what's in your mind—including your fears—manifests very easily and very quickly.
Anything you think about, any fear that comes up to you, you manifest it. So he was thinking about, you know, the fear of the unknown, the fear of not coming back, and those fears, as soon as he had that fear there—there it was right in front of him, and he had to deal with it.
Well, of course, the hook really didn't hurt him, and of course, he did get back, and, you know, it all works out because none of that's real—it was just a manifestation of his own fears. And the system was letting him explore those fears—that's how you get rid of them yourself, and you explore those.
So no, I don't have all the same explanations that Bob had because I don't interpret them the same way that Bob does. Just like here's a big difference that Bob made—the change the people before him. It was like Sylvan and Muldoon and Fox and a couple of others back in the 1800s, back when theosophy was a big deal.
They were studying out of body, and there were several books written about those studies about an out-of-body experience. Everyone then who went out of body had a silver cord attached to the middle of their back that went into their body that was still lying in the bed. So it's sort of like a deep-sea diver in his air hose.
You know, that's because in that time, they had this belief that it was the soul or spirit body or etheric body that lived inside the physical body—and then it left the physical body and went outside of the physical body and went on exploring.
But that soul or etheric body was critical to the survival of the physical body and vice versa. The physical body was critical to the survival of that spirit; they needed each other because they were bonded together in that body, and they needed this cord to always keep them attached.
Otherwise, there'd be a disaster, just like if the diver under the sea suddenly loses his air hose, you know? It would be a disaster.
So because that was their belief, that's what they saw. Now, that was, you know, half a dozen totally independent people; all saw silver cords because that belief was common. As a matter of fact, that's where the out-of-body came from because you're getting out of your body.
Well, you don't—you're not in your body. There is no body—the body is just like the elf in The Sims character; it's just eye candy—it's mathematical displayed on a screen. Except for us, it's not displayed on a screen; it's just sent to us, and we interpret it.
Sure. So, you know, Bob—because he didn’t have that belief in it, he wasn't a religious guy; he didn't have the need for a soul that lived inside of him that was, you know, attached to him by a silver cord.
And most of the people these days writing their books about their out-of-body experiences don't have silver cords either. That's because Bob didn't have a silver cord. And that idea that the soul lives in your body is kind of an old idea that goes back into the Middle Ages—like Middle Ages, Dark Ages.
Like with our belief systems, are like the prophets or the ascended masters or Jesus or Buddha or Krishna—are they examples of what we can become?
And this is my last question—this is a deep one. Are they examples of what we can become, or are they like NPCs played by the larger consciousness system to help evolve our consciousness as humanity?
For the most part, they're the first; they're examples of what we can become. Now whether they're NPCs or not is probably not really relevant. It doesn't really make any difference. You know, one of them is an NPC means it's being played by the computer by the larger consciousness system.
So the larger consciousness system itself is playing that avatar, making that avatar's choices within the bounds of the rule set in this virtual reality, or it’s some IUOC doing it.
Well, the IUOC is just a piece of the larger consciousness system anyway, so it's really all of the larger consciousness system playing with itself, you know, in these virtual realities and having experiences and making choices, and therefore evolving itself.
So it's all really the larger consciousness system. But I would say that it's probably an example of what we can become, more than anything else from—and I just take that from my own experience.
You know, the system doesn’t play a lot of NPCs to try to manipulate us. The system tries to let us evolve on our own, however we do because the mistakes we make are how we—it's how we learn; there's our learning points. If we keep making mistakes, well, our life gets hard.
We find pain; we find anguish, and that's the carrot and the stick, right? So you make good choices, and you get carrots. You know, life is good; relationships are good; you're happy. You make poor choices, and you get sticks. You know, your life is not so happy; you're miserable; life is hard and harsh; you're angry a lot; you're miserable.
So the system is designed to give us opportunities to make better choices. And if the larger consciousness system was constantly popping in with, you know, with special characters or NPCs to manipulate us to manipulate us into thinking this or thinking that or the other things, it would just pretty much be getting in the way of that natural growth that we need to go through.
Yeah. So for the most part, it doesn't do that. Now, could it do that? Sure! Has it ever done that? Probably. Sure!
But mostly it would like to have IUOCs that have evolved come back and shed that light just because they've already gotten to that level of quality that they, you know, figured out, and they shed that light.
Now, it's all organic; it's all us creating, developing, growing up together. You know, it’s an organic thing. It’s not just the system tricking us into growing up. The system doesn't want to trick us into growing up because if you don’t do it yourself, it isn’t real.
You're just acting grown up; you're not really grown up. Same problem we discussed before. So it pretty much leads us to ourselves—to figure things out.
So it leads us to ourselves when we have people who make terrible decisions and they end up hurting lots and lots of people, and somebody says, "Well, if the LCS, you know, care, then why don't they come in and fix that stuff?" You know, why do they let these awful things happen?
Well, it's not God playing with these pet people, you know, and manipulating us to do what he thinks we should. It's like, "Well, you have free will as long as you do what I want." That's not free will. You know, that's not free will at all.
If you have free will, then you get to do as you please, which means you get to make terrible choices and do terrible things. And the system pretty much lets all that ride because that's our stick that we create now. We have to live with that terrible stuff.
We look at it; we learn from it, and we say, "Oh, we don’t want to go there again; that’s not good." So bad examples— you can learn a lot from very bad examples. So that's why the system tends to let us be—let us do in our own juice because that maximizes our ability to grow up and learn.
Tom, this has been amazing! I can't thank you enough for joining.
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