Secret Agent: If You’re Easily Offended, You’re Easily Manipulated! This 1 Trick Catches A Lie In 2s

If I'm easily offended, I'm easily manipulated. So, if you are that person who is reactive, reactive, reactive, rule number one: shut the up. Because if you're looking to be respected, you need to manage yourself. But there are times that people are going to cross you and disrespect you. Well, how do you deal with it?

So there's a guy, post it's talked to the intelligence communities, and it really, really helps when you're dealing with people. One of the ways you deal with that kind of behavior is… every… the former Secret Service agent turned human behavior expert from protecting presidents to interrogating the world's most dangerous men, she now teaches people how to develop mental strength and persuasive communication skills. How did they train you as a secret service agent to have that strong mental foundation that you have?

There's a lot of things. So first, one of the biggest things that holds people back is the idea that I'm special. You're not that special. For example, I was one of the first responders on 9/11. I watched thousands of people die, and one of the things that got me through it was understanding I wasn't alone in it. And when you learn that you can get through anything, when you tell yourself, nobody knows what I'm going through, nobody can help you, because it's just you going through it. Now the next thing, what's most important is this tool that we don't pay attention to: our body. There's this study where they started recording people walking, then they laid it to convicted felons, and they said to them, who would you pick as prey? They all picked the same people. They were so… there are simple things you can do with your hands, your voice, how you sit, and I will tell you everything. But also, the other thing that's actually interesting, which you didn't ask, but I will volunteer this information, are the strategies to tell if somebody's being truthful or not. And it's… that's lie detection 101. This has always blown my mind a little bit.

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Evie Pomus, when you think about the books that you've written, the content you produce, and all that you're fundamentally doing for people, in your own words, how do you summarize or define that? What is it that you think you're doing for people with the content, the books you've written, etc.?

It's a great question, and I don't know if I have a clear answer. I think… always… I think about how am I serving other people? I always go back to that. I remember, even when I wrote my book, *Becoming Bulletproof*, actually my book was supposed to launch right at the height of COVID. I mean, it's when the world was shutting down, and I remember I had a PR person, my agent, the publishers, everyone's like, hey, you know, this COVID thing is happening, all the media tours glitched went away, why don't we postpone the launch of the book? And nobody was advising me to launch the book. Nobody. Everyone's like, drop it, don't do it, don't do it. And I remember I was like, all right, I need to kind of tune everybody out, and I… I paused, and I thought to myself, why did I write this book? I wrote this book to help people. Okay, so if the goal is to help people, make them more resilient, help them live less fearlessly, the world right now is in a state of fear. So if I follow that principle, then right now I should launch the book. And I remember, against everybody's advisement, I launched it.

When you get DMs from people and private messages, what is it, the essence of what they're coming to you for? So I was surprised with my book where people began writing in: I'm dealing with this problem, your book helped me find a way out; or I'm dealing with this, can you give me guidance on how to deal with it? What is the essence of what they're struggling with? It's always themselves. It's not the… it's not the world around you. I get it, to some extent, but it's almost always where the problem… we either sabotage ourselves, we get in the way, we make decisions, or we think… I didn't do anything, everything's cause and effect. Anytime you say do, act, or don't act, it has a consequence or an effect to it. And I think sometimes we're so blasé about it. In the Western world, the science shows that we actually downplay our faults. When we make a mistake, it's not that big of a deal. We downplay our stuff, and we actually lift up our positive attributes. It's okay, but to a point. Because when you downplay things and you downplay your involvement, you downplay your choices, you downplay what role you play in your life, then you can't… you… you really are essentially powerless, and you're… you're blaming the world. And I'm not saying that other people can't harm you; they will. They just will.

I think if people made peace with the fact that there are actors out there, some I know, some I don't know, and in pursuit of their self-interest, people are going to make choices that hurt me, period. Bar on the end. If you can live with that and understand that, you will be okay because you just have more awareness. In fact, in the… when I did polygraphs, the interview room after I interviewed so many people, and typically I would interview suspects, um… people that we suspected committing a crime, so… lie detector tests, lie detector test. But I was a lie detector, not the machine. A lot of people think you hook that thing up, oh ping, they're lying. No, like you sit there, you assess people, you read people. What the polygraph does is it tells you when you ask a series of questions to this person… I hook Steven up, I ask him a series of several questions, I look to see what Steven's autonomic nervous system is doing: heartbeat, right? Does that change your electrodermal activity? How much you sweat? You're breathing, the way you breathe. So that's why you have the blood pressure cuff, you have the electrodermal plates, which actually look at sweating. You won't… it's imperceptible to you, but the plates will pick up sweating, the sweating activity, the change in breathing. So if I'm asking you a series of questions, I'm looking at how your body deviates during those questions. Uh… you even have sensors, because sometimes people try to beat the polygraph, and so there's sensor pads that we have to see if they're doing certain movements or not. I personally don't think you can beat it, but again, the test itself means nothing. You can't take it to court. You can't say, judge, they failed their polygraph. That's not what it's there for. It's there to get more information and look… who are you? If you're lying, who are you really, in judgment of yourself? That's why your body is reacting.

A second ago you talked about how victims stay victims and this whole idea of becoming a bulletproof person. Because regardless of what we do in our lives, bad things are going to happen. We're going to encounter narcissists and people that are looking to take advantage of us. There's a certain mental fortitude that you exude. You exude a certain type of mental resilience and strength. What is the found… you know, and I think that's really critical because if you have that strong internal foundation, then all… everything else we're probably going to talk about today becomes much easier and possible. But without that, like strong foundation, when the wind blows, the house falls over. So if we think about step one in building that strong mental fortitude foundation that you have, where does one begin? And especially if we're beginning from a very, very bad place, we're beginning from a place of victimhood, bad things have happened, we're not the most confident person.

It starts with who's around you. That's where it starts. If you have people around you… anybody can break victimhood. Like anybody can. You can. So I want to put that out there. Just because you're locked in a place doesn't mean you have to stay in there. You can. But usually, you're… if you're locked in somewhere, it's because the system you have around you that you also help create and perpetuate, to some degree. We're not completely innocent. We play a role. The system that is built around you keeps you… think of it this way: it keeps you in jail. So you have to look at your environment and say, what about my environment is keeping me here? Usually it's a person or people. Hopefully it's one, and you're not dealing with multiple. Now it can be family, and that's where you know… some… when you deal with children and you deal with certain, you know, crimes and abuse, I… I… I, you know, I always feel like the one population of people that truly have an… like I don't want to say excuse, but you… it's really not their fault, are kids, because there's just so vulnerable, and like they rely on you for their… their livelihood. They need somebody to feed them, clothe them, take care of them, or they can't survive. However, if, as you age, right, as you mature, it's looking at your environment: who's around me, and who is keeping me here? Who… and you know what becomes hard? It becomes hard because you'll have a… let's say… I don't… I… I'm going to use this term: bad actor in your life. That bad actor can be Mom, Dad, sibling, brother, it can be anybody. You can love that bad actor, but the choices and the things that that person does impacts you. It makes you more vulnerable, even if… when you look at… even if you just look at crime… well, they did… they've done a lot of different studies, and what they found is… even let's say if I don't commit crime, but I'm around other people who commit crime, I am more likely to be shot than any other population of people. I could not be involved in any nefarious activity at all. I could be clean, but simply because of who I associate with, that makes me more vulnerable to being… to becoming a victim. So that's what… where you start: who's around you.

Now other really important things… whoever you pick for your companion, if you have one, it's huge. That companion is either going to raise you up, or they're going to sink your ship down. And is that… in the real world, best friends, husbands, wives… if we're talking… I would say first intimate partner, whatever that is to you, husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever that is, companion, that's number one, because that's the person… here's the difference between a… like a partner and a… a friend. Your friend goes home to their home, you go to your home. A companion or partner, you probably live with them. That means you are so overly exposed to that person, and you need to make damn well sure that that person is not contaminating your life. You can still love them, but you can step back and look… there's a problem here, that this person's stuff is contaminating my life, and it's a hard thing to do for folks, because this is why you're with someone. It's like, okay, I'm with Evie, but you know, Evie is this and Evie is that, and so you start to blend my identity with my behavior, and then over the time, too, you normalize the things I do. If I'm a bad actor, well, Evie didn't mean it, she's always hotheaded, you know, she's this, but she did all these nice things for me here, and then what we do is we miss stuff. That's why it's easier for you to look at somebody else's relationship and be like, hey, problem here, problem here, problem here, because you are not tainted by the emotional aspect of being tied to that person. You're able to look at them objectively. This is why… by… it's easy to give other people advice. I can see the red flags in the issues in this person. When you're in it, you can't. It's hard. So I would also venture to say, people may not like this: if you're with someone and there are people around you that you know legitimately care and love you and they're telling you, hey, not the best thing for you, I would say please listen, because they are seeing something that you might not be seeing.

Do you think people just tend to know, like in their gut, they tend to know, but they justify the person's behavior, and they almost kind of gaslight themselves to some degree? They say, well, maybe not, maybe that's fine, maybe they are a friend, maybe they… they're just doing that for my best interest, whereas really that bad actor is acting in their interests and kind of gaslighting you, and then you're gaslighting yourself.

I think it's one thing is you don't… you don't go from zero to 100 overnight when you're in a relationship or you're with around people who are like that. In the beginning, you don't see it, right? Everyone's got their best behavior, but over time you'll start to see little like sneak peeks, little previews, and it's those previews you want to pay attention to. We like to give people the benefit of the doubt. We listen to the excuses that they give us, and you know, there's this ancient Greek saying that says, don't listen to your opponent, look at them; it will tell you everything. And when I say look at them, look at what people do. I need you to drum out what they're telling you. I need you to drum out their "I am sorries," because they probably are; they've hurt you, and they are probably genuinely sorry. That's not the point. The point is, when do you want to learn your lesson? In the beginning or at the end? And at the end, sometimes it's very, very, very hard.

You know, I have a community, and I started after I did the book, and when people started writing in, I said, you know what, let me do this community, I'll call it Beyond Bulletproof, and whoever signs up and it… you know, two years in, have 800 members, and we… a lot of people come in with different scenarios, and they'll come in with… and it's almost always the scenario they come in with… if there's something like this, it's somebody that they're tied to that's just sinking them, sinking them. And sometimes they're the sinker, and they think it's the other person. So sometimes you're the bad actor, and you don't even realize it. So you need to figure out two things: am I the one doing things that's not just hurting myself but other people, but I've justified it to myself in pursuit of whatever self-interest I have; or am I tied to someone who's pulling me down? I'm going to tell you something, Stephen. I sat across people who did a lot of different things, some serious crimes, some not so serious. Every single person sold it to themselves why they did what they did. We're sellers. I can justify anything to myself if I want to. They were turning themselves into, I guess, victims of situations. Why I do that? Well, you know, good people make bad choices, good people make mistakes. The problem is, sometimes the consequences of those mistakes, they last. But you can't vouch for anybody, cuz you don't know who people are behind closed doors. You don't. And two, anybody is capable of anything at any given moment in time, if given the opportunity. If… if you understand that, you will not be surprised or shocked by anything or anyone. It's not that it's a morbid view of people, it's understanding people are malleable, they're susceptible, some more than others. Some may have a either stronger integrity or more… I don't even think it's integrity, it's just a stronger hold on themselves to say, yes, I won't do this, no, I won't do this. Um… and then some people are a bit more malleable, like it's easier to get to them, it's easier to manipulate them, it's easier to mold them to do other things, it's easier to get them to sway in a direction. But if you understand that, then you… you understand human behavior.

There's so many things of interest there. I remember, if we go back to the top of your point around your environment and people having a huge impact on your life, I remember reading a study by a guy called Michael Hman and another study done… done at Harvard University, where they showed that even if at work you sit next to someone who is toxic and does like bad practice… at work, your chance of doing bad practice yourself radically increases, and in some cases that's by 25%, and in other environments that's up to 100%. Your… your probability of then getting a disciplinary against you just because you sat next to that person radically increases. And this is… I think reinforces the case that your environment is… has such a powerful and profound impact on you, for better or for worse. And I think the for-better part is also worth pausing on, because if you're sitting with and you're around people that are lifting you and elevating you and making you believe that the world is valuable and you can do anything, as I've experienced in my own life at times, it's crazy that that almost like rewires the neurons in your brain to some degree.

How do you pick people? Like, how do you differentiate on your own who's good and who's not for you? You know what? This is a really interesting question. Vibes and everything else in my life, I'll tell you data science or this or… here's my framework, but there's some things in life which I think your intuition and your vibes, if you've developed the skill of tuning in enough, is the best indicator. And if you… if you look back through my career: at 18, dropping out of university; even at 60, not going to school; at 20, leaving a business that was going really well; and then at 27, quitting a business that was all over the world and about to do this major second IPO… all this stuff… in all of those moments, the most important thing wasn't my prefrontal cortex, it wasn't logic or facts or figures or the money, it was purely this feeling inside me that I no longer wanted to do this thing because it didn't feel good anymore. And in the moment, you look insane. But when you zoom out on a person's life who is driven by that voice inside, like really driven by it, you go, oh my God, what a life that they have! Amazing! Look at… look at the girlfriend they have and the place they live and the stuff they have and the job they have. They're so lucky. But I actually think it starts with that, like courage to tune into that voice inside. So that's my answer: it's just pure vibes. People… for me… are… vibes just don't feel good, don't want to go. And then careers I've had, as the year where I go, I don't like doing this anymore. That's… that's me done. And there's another part which is on the other end of that is uncertainty, because in all those situations there was really no plan B. There was no good plan B.

That's so interesting. So when you talk about vibes, it's your intuition? Yeah, it's your instinct. I'm bar none. And it's when… when I'm around people, like anybody around, they give off something. And what we don't do is we don't listen to what we feel. You can still do business or talk to someone, but when you feel that, and I do too, I feel my way… even honestly, even whose podcast I'm going to do, I'm like, I don't know if I like this vibe or I don't know if I like this… I just feel it. I feel like who do I want to be around? And even something like whose podcast do I want to be on, because it's… I'm bringing myself into a space, right? Mhm. That person's space. It's like… it's all… it's all interconnected. So it's like I'm choosing what spaces to go into. And if you're right… if it… you don't have to articulate it to yourself, and that's where we go wrong often, because it's like somebody comes in, they say hi to you, and immediately you're like, I just… I don't like this. But they didn't say anything to you, they didn't do anything to you. You can't articulate why. And you know what we do? We dismiss it. We dismiss it. Oh, it's me, oh, I shouldn't… this… no, it's… you know what? It's you. You've got two brains, right? This one and the gut, that's what they call it, your gut instincts. Listen to it always. And I think going back to people who are steady… you're talking about what makes you steady… I think a big part of what helps make you steady is trusting in yourself. You have to trust in yourself, like believe in yourself. And when I say that, I mean trust that what you're feeling is… is… is true. Like, listen to it and not let other people talk you out of things, or being able to say, I feel this way, I don't know why, but I'm going to trust it. And almost, if not all the time, you look back, it's like, I knew better, I felt this, I kind of sensed this, I didn't listen to myself. And if you're wrong, so you're wrong. And that goes back to uncertainty. People are afraid to be wrong, why? Because of what other people might say about me, because how I will look to the world. And you know, from there, from that conclusion, you then jump to… and then they will reject me, and then I'll be alone, and then I'll be lonely, then I'll die. That's kind of like the logical, the downward step. I always find that interesting. I had this conversation with my girlfriend yesterday, which is… it's interesting how one belief is actually connected to like a string of downstream beliefs that then go to… he doesn't love me. And this is such a random tangent, but me and my girlfriend were like scheduling our calendar for the future that we're going to be a part for a little while, so… um… she wanted to like schedule the dates, and I was really busy with something, and so I wasn't like paying as much attention to the scheduling conversation, and she got a little bit upset. And I found it so interesting, cuz the fact that I was half paying attention to the scheduling conversation actually told her that I'm not interested in her, which means I don't love her. And… and so afterwards, I turned her and I said, can you explain to me like how I made you feel in that situation? And I went, why… why… every time… why… why? And we got right down there: you don't love me. And it all started with this little thing at the top. And I think the same here, where if I do something and it goes wrong, there's like a downstream consequence in someone's subconscious that leads them to think… then I'm going to be exiled from the tribe. Do you know what I mean? That's like at the root of it. That's why I think fear… you know, when we… you talk so much about fear and becoming fearless, living fearlessly… because I don't think you can be fearless. Okay, living fearlessly… what's the distinction? Fearlessly means I see things despite being afraid. I'm going to try, I'm going to do my best to like live in it, right, and embrace it to some degree. Whatever you're afraid of, if it's something you want to do, follow it, and then figure out a way to… to do it. But it's okay to be afraid and uncertain during the process. I don't know… when I'm uncertain, too, I'm thinking, all right, I can figure this out. You don't fail until you stop. I… I look at it that way, like even if you're failing incrementally, overall you won't fail until you're just like, all right, I'm done. And as long as you're done cuz you want to be done, that's cool. But you don't want to be done because you keep failing or you're confused or you're… you're… you're leaving because somebody… other people are telling you shouldn't be doing it. It's just because you decided, I don't want to be on this path anymore. I think it's… it always has to come back to you. I… I've always been in the school of thought, cuz… and I love my family, but they were always telling me, do this, and especially cuz my parents were immigrants, everything was job security, get a good job, get a good job, 9 to 5, get a good job, don't try to do anything else, you know, because they struggled so much. And so when I tried to do things outside of that element, they were afraid, they were confused, they thought I was nuts. Even when I started the NYPD, they were not… they were not happy at all. They're like, what is this? Girls don't do these types of jobs. Even in my community, uh… they, you know, I was laughed at, you know, people… people kind of are like, look at Yanni… was my dad's name… look at Yanni's daughter, look… look how silly she is, she is, you know. So this is kind of like those moments where… going back to you… you just have to do what you feel, because afterward you're going to be pissed off as hell because you listen to other people.

And on that point of gut instinct, which you mentioned a second ago, is there a way, do you think, to train and develop your gut instinct? Cuz you strike me as someone that has a pretty astute gut instinct that you trust, but some people don't. And what ends up happening is they just end up living in regret that they didn't listen to their gut instinct, and they, you know, like they only find out after the fact, after they've been mistreated. So I'm wondering if there's a way to like cultivate a better relationship with one's intuition and gut instinct.

Yeah, stop asking everybody what they think. When I have a really big decision to make, like really big, I don't… I don't tally people. In fact, the bigger it is, the bigger the consequences or the bigger the… the pain or the trauma or whatever it is, I go in, because they're going to confuse me. That's what you do. You stop asking people. And if you're going to ask somebody, let's say it's a health decision, you're going to go to a doctor, or you're going to go to someone who has specific knowledge about a decision you are trying to make. You're not going to go to Mom, you're not going to go to Dad, you're not going to go to your brother, you're not going to go to people who don't have that… who, although they love you, their opinions are going to send you like a ping-pong ball. That's how you become unsteady. And you can start small. You can start small. And when I say start small, is start making decisions without running them by anybody: what to eat, where to go, where to vacation. Just… you can start small. It's just… allow yourself to be the decision maker. Allow yourself to be in the driver's seat. But what we do is we invite people in the car. We're like, yeah, yeah, you could drive my car, no problem. They get in the driver's seat, we put them in the driver's seat, then we're in the passenger seat, or we might even get kicked to the back seat, and then we're all pissed off, like, why are you driving like that? Why are you going that way? That's not really where I want to go. Then drive the car and stop inviting everybody in to drive it for you, and then be pissed off when they don't take it the direction you want to go. If you're going to be pissed off, always be pissed off at yourself, because it's like… I chose… I chose wrong. But I chose… that is how you build confidence. You know, going back to law enforcement, cuz I teach it… one of the predominant trains that people in law enforcement have is… they are… they have high confidence because of one reason: they are… they make decisions. They are good decision makers, because when you're out on the street and you're dealing with somebody or situation, there's nobody to look over to and say, hey, how should I handle this? You have to make a choice, and you have to go… making decisions is going to increase your confidence and your ability in yourself, even if they're the wrong decisions. That's not the point. Be a decision maker in your life that is going to move you forward, that is going to increase your belief in yourself and your trust in yourself, and you're going to get comfortable, too. Huh… I read that wrong. You know what I learned here? I should have read it this way. And so this is when you bring in the vibes and a little bit of tactical strategy, because you're less emotional. That's another… that's another hindrance. When you are emotional, you are a bad decision maker. When you are in a space of emotion, make no decision. Avoid… don't text, don't call, don't… I always say, just remove yourself and go… go quiet. When you can go quiet and be in that stillness of you, it will come to you over time. And you know what's another great thing? And when you look at resilient people, they don't have all the answers, and they don't need to have all the answers. I don't have all the answers, but I don't need them to be okay. And this is where you embrace that uncertainty. You don't have to have all the answers, and that by itself is powerful. Like, you don't need to figure it out, you don't need to know what to do right away. Leave it, sit in it, be in it. Then when it's time, you move through.

You're going to end up getting a lot of unsolicited advice, though. You know this. We all do. We get… when we're making… trying to make those big life decisions, we'll have someone who we didn't even ask them, but people will be chipping in, telling you what to think of yourself. And there's an element almost, I guess, of being able to develop stronger boundaries in your life, so that you can keep the outside world outside. Okay, so then how about you stop telling everybody your business? Why do they need to know what you're thinking about doing here or there? Why? Because when you open your mouth to share things, you're going to get advice. So this goes back to… do I open my mouth or do I stay quiet? Because if I open my mouth and I start talking, people are going to start sharing. And so when people… oh, they don't respect my boundaries… you're the one who offered it. If you want to create boundaries, you start with them. I don't share, or… like, if I'm… for example, I'm working on a project or deal, nobody knows until my deal is done. Why? I don't know how it's going to go. I don't want other people's opinions. I'll have the opinions of whoever I'm dealing with specifically in a deal. If it's a project, right, I'm going to talk to them, but I don't want other people confusing me. People confuse you… good intentions, but when you've got too many voices in your head, that's why you can't trust yourself, because you've got all these other voices, you can't hear your own. So I know if I share something with someone, they're going to share their thoughts, and maybe I don't want them. I stay… I will tell you, I usually stay quiet until I'm ready to reveal something. Also, I'll stay quiet until it's either done, like it's happened, because so many times you'll do something and it falls through, and it… you're like… you don't want to have to explain it to other people. It's like, why do I need to put myself in that situation where I'm always talking? I think talking, talking, talking, talking… although I think communication is good, but sometimes it's oversharing and over-putting our stuff out there. How are you going to have boundaries when you yourself violate those boundaries? Like, you just make yourself like open borders, everybody come in. If you're a bit more methodical with who you share what with and why, I think that that's okay. But when you're like literally like tallying everybody, even if it's like what job to do… do… like, for example, there's a woman in the… the community I have, and she's trying to figure out what career to do, and she was kind of like… my mom says this, my dad says this… grown woman… and it was coming from a genuine place, and I like this but I don't like that, and she was ping-ponging everywhere. She's like, Evie, what's… you know, can you… can you share something with me? I was like, stop! I was like, stop talking to everybody! Why are you telling everybody to give you advice? I was like, I want you to think about how insane what you're doing is. You are going to another human being to ask them what job, what career you should do, a job that you're going to wake up every morning to get out of bed to go do, day after day after day, and you're tallying and pulling other people who are not going to be doing that. You're going to be doing that. On what you should do? Do you see a little bit of the ridiculousness of how you are asking somebody else? You're the one who has to get up every morning and go do it. If you say that to her and you ask her to justify why she's doing that, she might say, well, I'm just not sure, I just wanted to hear other people's opinions, I just don't know… you can… she can… you can do that. But if the question is, how do I learn to trust myself? You trust yourself more by listening to yourself more and asking other people less. That… that… that is how you get there. Clearly she doesn't trust herself, though. No. And then maybe… maybe just

Service agents need an instrumental mindset: action, action, action. Make a choice, make a choice, make a choice. Move, go, go, go. What's interesting is that everything was about movement. Don't be still, even when you're getting shot at. They actually teach you to run in zigzags; it's really hard to shoot someone if they're not perfectly still. We'd shoot paper targets. You miss, you're stressed, your emotions are high, you're looking at this guy shooting, that person's shooting, am I shooting? Everyone's looking at each other's scores; if you don't shoot well, they don't want to take you out on the next raid. You've got that adrenaline rush; it's hard. But they teach you: if you're getting shot at, don't sit there like a dummy—move, run, zigzag.

I've taken that premise of always being in kinesis. Kinesis is Greek for "movement." Move, move, always move; create momentum, no matter how stuck you feel. I follow this in my own life: just move, don't sit still. I'm not saying don't grieve, don't be sad, don't feel—it's okay—but don't be completely stagnant. That's where you get stuck; you don't move, you get comfortable, you become afraid. If you can just create movement—a little movement, a decision, another one, another one—if you stay in kinesis, you'll move through whatever you're going through.

I interviewed Jocko Willink, and he said something similar: in the SAS or Navy SEALs, if you're lost, you won't get new information if you stay put. You have to move, even if you don't know which direction. Movement generates information, informing better decisions. If you're stuck, get into kinesis, make a decision, start moving, and you'll learn something. Even reaching out to someone is progress. When you don't move, you get stuck in emotional depravity: "I feel horrible, this is happening." Find ways to move out of your problem. Feel it, but don't bathe in it. You also don't have to figure it out—why did this happen, why did this person do it? Sometimes there's nothing to figure out; sometimes it just is. There's brilliance and freedom in letting go: "This happened. I don't know why, and I don't need to know why, but I can figure out how to move forward." Kinesis: how am I going to move out of this? What's next? The more you analyze, the more pain you put yourself through; you're rethinking, retelling, reliving. Reliving things someone else did to you activates the same part of the brain as cocaine—it becomes addictive.

I always ask: is what I'm doing leading me to the path I want? If not, I relinquish it. It's okay to feel bad, but you'll feel less bad if you keep momentum going. Being stuck in victimhood, fear, or procrastination—is victimhood addictive? I think it becomes a habit. Nobody says, "I love it," but it becomes a pattern of behavior and thinking. What's the reward? I don't know if there's a reward, or if people think about it; they just get stuck, repeating the same thing because they're afraid and uncertain of what will happen if they change. You see this in imbalanced relationships—not just domestic violence. One person is very dominant, high-power, controlling, setting the agenda (not in a good way). The other is low-power, weak, submissive, avoidant. The relationship works because one is up, the other is down; they can't both be high-powered. In severely imbalanced relationships (domestic violence), one person is high-control, the other submissive and avoidant, trying to keep the peace. The more submissive and avoidant you are, the higher the other person goes. They become louder, stronger, dogmatic, demanding, rigid. You end up thinking, "How did I end up here?" Another person keeps you suppressed; how can you trust yourself and make good decisions?

As a woman in the Secret Service, I imagine there was institutional sexism. People might think, "She's a woman; I can push her down, make odd comments, create a power dynamic where I'm above her." Did that happen? How did you deal with it? That stuff does happen. I remember Barbara Pierce Bush went to Tanzania. I was assistant detail leader, the head person. My boss from headquarters wasn't there yet; we were having a briefing. I was protecting the Bush family—Barbara Pierce Bush (George W. Bush's daughter). She went there for philanthropic work, and we were going to unsafe areas. I set up the briefing; I'm in charge. Agents from different parts of the country were coming to help—some I'd never met. One guy walks in, "Oh hey, hi." This is in a hotel room. "Hey, the intern staff room is down the hall; I can show you." He assumed I was staff, an intern, part of the entourage, not an actual agent. "Actually, no, I'm the assistant detail leader. Thank you for joining; what office are you from?" Could I be pissed off? Sure. Did he make an assumption? Sure. I don't care. He looked like a big dummy afterward—not me. It's annoying, but you have to pick your battles. You can't fight everybody. Some people design their lives to fight buffoons. I'm busy; I have things to do. Think about how much time and energy they waste. That's a stagnant life. Choose and fight strategically.

After September 11th, the US Secret Service field office was in World Trade Center 7. When the towers collapsed, we lost our whole office. The New York office needed a new home—office space in Brooklyn. It needs to be designed a specific way—non-descript. I got called into the Sachs office (the head boss). "I need you to design this office. Work with headquarters, get us nice photos; make this look like our new home. We have a lot of briefings here. I'm putting you in charge. Can you do this?" "Yes, sir." There are 250 agents in the office. I get pulled for interior design duty—HGTV, there we go. I said, "All right, no problem." I did it. Some women were like, "Aren't you...?" "No worries. I'm going to do the best damn job I can." It took months; I made a nice office. That same boss put out an open bid for a new polygraph position. Only two polygraph examiners in the New York office, 30 in the whole US Secret Service. A spot opened—rare. Everyone put their names in. One senior polygraph guy said, "Why don't you put your name in?" "Dude, no way. No one's going to confess to me; they'll high-five each other. I'm never putting my name in." "Put your name in; you don't know." I waited until the last half-hour and threw my name in. A week later, I got a call. He said, "I had X amount of people put in—maybe 30. I picked you. Do you know why?" "No, sir." "I gave you that assignment to design the office, and at no point did you complain or say anything to me; in fact, you did a great job. Thank you. This is your assignment."

I have to protect my boundaries, but don't make someone's prejudice my problem, and don't complain. Are these mutually exclusive? Context-dependent. Protecting my boundaries—my boss calls me in and tells me I'm doing the interior design job potentially because I'm a woman—that's not protecting my boundaries. I could have called him out, but I wouldn't have gotten that position. Someone had to do it; he picked me. Maybe he liked my sense of style, maybe not; maybe because of the way I look, maybe because I'm a woman. I don't know. I actually studied Fine Art in college. I wasn't appalled. I looked at the opportunity—I got to work with people in headquarters I never would have met, and with all the historic archive stuff. It was kind of cool. Could I have argued it? Yes, but I chose not to. Long-term, it worked out for me. You can't care so hard; people are going to slight you. You choose how much you care. The less I care, the better I perform. Choose strategically; don't choose just because you're pissed. If you're doing it because you're pissed, you're ruled by emotion; you'll make bad choices. For many, the action after a situation is quick, automatic. Then they relax and think, "Why did I say that?" You're easily manipulated if you're reactive, reactive, reactive. You're not thinking; you have no self-regulation. I self-regulate. There are times when I'll burn a bridge down—I'm good with it—so long as I'm choosing clearly. I'm not doing it reactively; I'm choosing to do it.

How do I train the monkey inside my brain? I used to be less regulated; I made more emotional decisions. Over time, I've learned to make rational prefrontal cortex decisions. I started to shut up. When I'm pissed, I go quiet; I don't say anything. That's the biggest thing I learned. The more you talk, the more you reveal, the more people know, the more confused and indecisive you are. When I learned to stop shooting my mouth off because I was offended...you can only get offended if you allow yourself to get offended. People will cross you and disrespect you, yes, but how often can you be offended? Who cares? I don't have to have everyone's respect. That's exhausting. There were times I worked with people who didn't want me there.

I remember once in the NYPD Queens narcotics unit (true story), I was sent to partner with them to take down a guy doing child porn and counterfeiting money. I'm the lead agent, and they weren't happy to see me. Centerfolds were all over the place. I didn't care, but I knew it would be a problem—for them, not for me. They started leaving information out of briefings, ignoring me during search warrants. My team saw this; no one said anything. My team was all guys, and thankfully, they were respectful agents. We do the arrest. A subsequent arrest happens; they literally ignore you, like you're not even there. We do the arrest, do the prints; they even leave the precinct. We're like, "Where did they go?" They completely ditched us. I went to my group leader, Carl. "Hey, listen, if these guys call again, don't send me out there." "Why?" "It's clear they don't want me there. I don't want to fight, but I'm not going to put myself somewhere I don't want to be. It's bad for the team. Send a dude, don't send me back." Is that letting them win? No. They'll be at the office with their posters and be like, "Yeah, we got rid of her." This is where you choose what circles you want to be in. I didn't want to be in that circle. You can't change the mindset and culture of a group. It wasn't one person; it was the whole group. I'm not going to bulldoze my way in. I learned to navigate—where to fight, where to walk away. I don't need to prove anything to anybody; I've earned it. It was egregious; I felt it was a danger to me and the other special agents. I had a responsibility. If they're not communicating, someone's going to get shot. That's on them, not on me, but I'm not going to partake.

Many will relate to being subtly disrespected. It's from romantic partners, colleagues, etc. Many want to know how to deal with it. The train of thought is to argue, engage, shout them down, win. But if you're being subtly disrespected, what do you recommend? Who is it? If it's my partner (I'm married to another special agent), I might argue it, not to argue, but because I want a healthy relationship. You let things go. What's really not important? What do I want to address, and why? That takes hierarchy—who your partner is. They either raise you up or sink you down. That matters. I'll do my best not to be belligerent. Everyone else falls to the side for me because I understand the value of being with a person you're with 90% of the time; it's an investment. For everyone else, I mostly let it go. I always ask: are you worth my time and energy? I'm busy. Do I need to stop and address you?

Let's play out a scenario. We work together in a call center. This happened to me early in my career. I was answering phones, selling things. I was sat next to someone subtly disrespecting me. I wasn't in any position of authority to do anything about it. That instance shaped my leadership perspective; I have a responsibility as CEO to clamp out disrespect in an organization. You're often powerless at work to do anything about it. I couldn't stop this lady disrespecting me because I wasn't her boss. Now that I have the responsibility, it's a big thing for me that we don't employ jerks. There's a recent example where someone was in our business for a couple of hours, and in my previous company, a guy put up both middle fingers and walked off day one. It was a sign of a character issue.

If we're colleagues and you're late, I say, "First time you've been on time." You do some work; I say, "Not bad, considering your standard." In a meeting, I interrupt you. You submit work; I turn my nose up. I talk crap about you behind your back. How do you deal with that? I'd deal with a specific moment with tangible facts. "Can I speak to you for a moment?" Not in front of others. "You've disrespected me for a while now. You just came off a call, and I said you could have done that better; you didn't close that properly. Next time you get stuck, speak to me, and I'll take the call." What would you do? I might not do anything. It depends. I was very young; I didn't have the tools. The situation made coming to work a misery. Even today, I have money and security, but there's still disrespect potential. I have a good example I can't share—someone I work with who's extremely successful. They were threatened by me. I was told this by an intermediary. I chose a moment when I heard they'd disrespected me. I walked in front of a group of people and said, "I heard what you did in the hallway. In the future, if you want to say something to me, say it to my face." This really big, tough, powerful individual turned into a toddler in front of my eyes. "Oh, I didn't say..." I left the room; it never happened again. That's okay too. You came to that place: "Let it burn." You understood the consequences. Bullies flex; they're not very powerful.

I inherited a case; some admin paperwork wasn't filled out. I pushed it aside; I updated it, but I didn't do the admin thing. I'm leaving; the new agent got it. "Here's the case; I didn't get to do the admin thing for the evidence. I can help you." The group leader, in front of the whole group, said, "You didn't do this admin thing; that's on you; I don't care that you inherited the case." I wanted to lunge him by the neck, but I didn't. I let my anger ride. Later, I found him; his name was Jeff. "Hey Jeff, come here. Let me talk to you." I took him into the stairwell. "Earlier, you brought up this case. You're 100% right; I didn't finish the paperwork. I will take care of it. However, if you ever want to address me, don't ever do it like that again. You were very insulting; you did it in front of the whole group to flex. If you want to address me, pull me aside and speak to me. There's no need; we're peers. You may be the group leader, but there's no need to talk to me like that. I'm addressing you; I'm giving you more respect than you showed me." He said, "I'm sorry; you're right; I'm sorry." It never happened again. I wanted long-term good relationships; he was in my squad. I preserved his dignity; if I'd shot back, he would have shot back. I don't want to look stupid. I want to be in control. Yelling back or confronting someone may not be it, especially if I can't keep myself composed. I don't think I was that composed; I didn't shout, but I was articulate. If I was really composed, I would have said, "Please, can I have a private chat with you?" It would have been more effective. You have to point at a specific incident; they're masters of gaslighting. You need specifics. Even if you were pissed, if you articulated yourself, it's okay to own it. "I won't do that next time."

You said something about bullies. They're searching for the weakest link. In the scenario I described, once this individual realized I'd call it out, they never treated me like that again, but they moved on to someone else. That person is thinking of leaving because of the same person. I said, "Why don't you do what I did?" "I don't want conflict." She's suppressing herself; she's going to leave something she loves doing. If you go small, small, small, they go higher, higher. Speaking of bullies, I'll bring it back to crime. When I started interviewing suspects, you watch TV shows and think these predators are intimidating. Nope. When you look at the populations being victimized most, it's children, then women, then the elderly—they're the easiest to victimize. Predators pick easy prey; they don't want fair fights. I'd sit across people who did horrific crimes, and I could eat them for lunch. We build people up in our heads; we think they're high-apex individuals. They're not; they prey on people weaker than themselves.

And why it makes them feel stronger and better, more powerful. Why do you need to do that? Because you feel weak; that's why you do that. That's why you bully; that's why you push. Because you feel a void, and you look to fill that void by taking from other people. And that's what makes you feel strong.

All these predators—I never sat across from anybody, to include terrorists. I never sat across from anyone and was just like, "Oh, this guy's scary." Never. I'm shocked, actually, as I say it. I have never, to this day, sat across from someone where I'm like, "Oof." Not once. Everybody I'd walk in and I'm like—you know, in my head, of course, the inside voice—"You did this."

So I guess, like bullies, I think sometimes we unfortunately give them more weight and gravitas than they really are. Weak. Weakness all the way through.

With that in mind, how do I stop myself from becoming prey to a predator? You stop acting like prey. So the one thing you're not going to be… it depends who it is, first of all. If it's personal relationships, you have to set the intention of the relationship from the beginning—how you want it to go.

So let's do work. Work is an easy one. I'm not there to be your friend. I can be friendly, but I'm not going to be your friend. I'm not there to be super nice to you, or super sweet, or super kind. Like, I can be warm, I can be respectful, I can be compassionate; I can be those things. But I've got to bring the right version of me to a work environment, because then I just get… because then I set the tone of like, "Well, is everyone my friend? Or is everyone my boss? Like, what am I dealing with here?" Like, always keep that level of professionalism, always. And I make a point to do it, because then it just becomes really awkward if… if people are your friends.

Can you balance a relationship like that? You just got to be really, really, really, really good. But like, don't come in and literally like make yourself a doormat, or like overextend to the point… because the more you overextend, even a good person… it's going to be like, "Oh, that's just how she is. That's how he is." They get used to being like that, and people like being catered to; they like feeling like they're above. So now you create this role dynamic of, "I'm subservient, and you're here." So you want to make sure that no matter how excited you are to work with someone or be with someone, that you don't create this disproportionate thing, like the seesaw. You want to keep the seesaw level. It'll go up and down, but… but you want to make sure that you… because you will do it. Everybody assesses everybody; everybody sizes people up. They do it intuitively. People meet you, they size you up. "Oh, he seems like this. She seems like that. She seems like she's going to be this way." Project what you want them to feel. "I'm here, I'm warm, I'm open, I'm happy to be here. Again, thank you for having me. Um, let's talk." But at the same time, you can also think about how you sit, how you carry yourself, your voice, your tone—all these things play a role together.

I know people talk about body language; it does play a role. And the fact that… something as simple as when you go to meetings, are you in the meeting and you're like this—you're small? Maybe you've got your phone out, right? What am I doing? I'm… I'm making myself small. My hands aren't on the table because I don't think I'm worth putting my hands on the table, right? I want to literally make myself disappear. I'm not going to ask any questions. I'm… I'm going to maybe sit like this with my thing here, right? So this is telling your story about me. It is. So it's a really subtle way to be like, "Why don't I sit with purpose? I'm going to sit like this. I'm going to have my arms out. I'm going to have my shoulders back." Something as simple as just my posture means something. There's a study, actually, done in New York City. They put up cameras years ago and they started recording people walking in New York City. Then they took the footage and they played it to convicted felons in prison, and they said to them, "Who would you pick as prey?" They all picked the same people to prey on—all the same people, just by walk. There were three types of walk they found out. One walk was, "I'm walking, I'm sloppy, I'm not paying attention, I'm just like in my own space. I have really no deliberate purpose in the way I'm moving my body." Target. Easy prey. Other easy prey: my walk is small, I'm more timid, I'm kind of like not comfortable, I'm like paying attention. Easy prey. Those two were picked. You know who they didn't pick? The walk wasn't too sloppy, big; it wasn't too small; it was right in the middle, and it's deliberate. I'm in control of my body. I'm looking around. I'm present. I own my space. That person—I want nothing to do with those groups of people. They were not picked to be targets. So we exude vibes, energy, all that stuff. But even this—this tool that we don't pay attention to—our body. Think about how you use it to portray yourself when you're out there. Am I commanding myself, or am I just not paying attention at all? So even subtle things like that. Your voice—it's called paralanguage, and I wrote about it a lot in *Becoming Bulletproof*—your voice. Do I talk like this? "Hi, Amy. So nice to meet you. I'm so glad to be here. Hi, guys. Love it," right? What kind of guest am I going to be, right? But when I find my true voice and I own it, I slow down my speech. I bring down my tone and pitch to my true voice—to at least the most powerful voice—and I'm grounded, and I take my time. And I'm also… when I speak and I take my time, I'm letting you know I deserve to be here. What I'm saying deserves to be heard, and I deserve to take time for you to listen to me, as opposed to when I speak really, really fast, because, "Hey, guys, look, really quick. I don't want to take up anybody's time anymore. I know you're all busy." What did I just tell everybody? Don't listen to me. What I'm about to say isn't really relevant, and you're more important, and what I'm about to say really isn't. I just killed it. How many times do people finish meetings like that? Why are you saying that? You just told them, "Don't listen to me." These are subtle things that if we just pay attention to… you don't have to do a lot. You don't have to do a lot. There's no magic pill; there's no secret to this other than really own yourself and think about what am I exuding with my energy, with my body, with my voice.

Even your voice—your voice captures like so many things. Like your voice, it's like… um… you have to think of it like over your… your… your… your time in your life. Your voice captures the things you've been through. You were told to be quiet, be a good girl, be a good boy, don't talk loud, don't do this, don't do that. And you have to think like, over time, this voice has become a bit mangled because other people around you were telling you how to use it. And often we're actually not using our true voice. It's the voice that we've sort of somehow manufactured and created based off of what everybody else told us it should sound like. And so you want to pay attention to that, like, "How do I sound?" And I even noticed when my husband pointed this out, because… because he's kind of got the same background. He said to me once, he's like, "You ever noticed that when you talk to your mom, your voice goes high?" And I was like, "It does." He's like, "Yeah, it does. 'Cause she's my mom; she's an authority, and also she has a higher voice 'cause she talks with a very high voice." And I'm like, "You're right." And so even with my daughter, 'cause I have a little one, I try very hard to make sure that I don't do like the baby-babbling voice and like the high-pitched voice, because I don't want her to grow up thinking that because she's a girl she has to talk like this all the time. "Hi, Mom!" Because I want her to have a strong, commanding presence. And where's she going to learn that from? Her mom. In fact, even… there are studies done that even in scenarios where a child maybe favors the opposite-sex parent, they imitate the same-sex parent. So my daughter, whether she likes me or not growing up, will imitate my behavior more so because I'm the one she's learning from. And so I have awareness with that.

Do you think your life would have gone differently, and you would be sat here now, if you spoke differently—in the high-pitched, fast way? That I wouldn't be doing news. Who's going to listen to anything I say? "Hi, everybody. Welcome today. We had a mass shooting." Do I sound like I know what I'm talking about? I don't even… if what I'm saying is correct… correct… it's… do I believe in the words that I'm saying? Do I own the words I'm saying? If I don't believe in them and I don't sound like I know what I'm talking about, you won't either. In fact, when you watch any… any news anchor, like… you will hear… they've got a strong, anchored voice. Because even with breaking news stuff changes all the time. You know, I remember I was covering the recent shooting in New Orleans. It's breaking news. I'm getting information as it's coming in, and I'm… I'm doing a breakdown the best I can with the information that's coming in, so… but I still have to convey it in a way where people can trust and believe in what I'm saying. But if I don't sound like I believe in what I'm saying, it's not going to land. This… the way you sound has more impact than the words you actually say. That's a big thing. I didn't… I learned this later on. I learned this as an agent, and then even more so when I began doing TV, because there were times where I'm like, "Man, this… what I sound like…" I don't know if you've ever had that—you ever… maybe when you first started off—"Oh, yeah, of course," where you play yourself and you hear yourself and you're just like, "Oh, yeah, of course," and then you're like, "You know, I need to fix that. I don't need to sound like that. I need to sound a certain way." I'm the host of a podcast; I'm asking these questions; I'm sitting across from these people; I need to match them to some degree to show that like, "Please listen to my show. I deserve to be here. I'm giving you good information. I'm credible."

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Do you use your hands a lot as well? Yes, probably because I'm Greek. No, but it's… it's interesting because it's part of the delivery when you're saying something. A second ago you were going… and you… you were doing slow hand movements that are almost illustrating the point you're making, and it is persuasive because it almost is adding another layer of emphasis to what you're saying. Whereas if your hands were just tucked into the table, I actually might think you're less confident or sure in what you're saying. But because you're… again, it goes to what you're saying—you're taking more space up. So don't hide your hands. Like, just for anybody listening, 101: If you're sitting in a meeting, don't hide your hands. Don't sit on them; don't hide them. Just… one… it doesn't look good; it doesn't send a good message; it sounds like you're kind of insecure; you don't want to be there. Hands out. I'm here; I'm present. And yes… with the… these are called illustrators when you do this with your hands—it's called illustrators. Now there's a couple of things with illustrators. One, it can make it more interesting to watch someone speaking when you use an illustrator. That's more emphasis you said it; it adds another layer aside from me just sitting still, right? It engages people and pulls in the viewer a bit more; it's more engaging. That's one. The other thing with illustrators is it can be a cultural… cultural thing. I'm Greek; I'm from New York, so I've got a massive problem with these things. I actually work very hard to put them away. The other thing that's actually interesting, which you didn't ask but I will volunteer this information, it's… another way I would use to tell if somebody's being truthful or not. Again, everybody is different; everybody's body language is different. But when you're speaking to someone and they use illustrators… when they normally talk… typically when we see illustrators, it's truthful, right? They're telling you a story. "Yesterday, yes, you know, I went out with my friends. We went and we had burgers, and then afterward we went to the store." So when you see somebody doing that, it is very likely they are reliving the event, and you can see the body reliving it with them. So when you see that, positive sign, typically that they're being truthful. Now, if you're talking to someone who uses illustrators and all of a sudden they do this—this—they put their hands away during a certain part of the story… "So tell me who you went out and had dinner with." "Eie… oh… um… you know, it was just some people from the office." In that moment, what you're going to do is say, "Okay, Evie's used illustrators this whole time. I shifted the conversation; I asked her something else—not her hands—away." Why? That's it. Why? That's lie detection 101. Now it doesn't mean I am lying, because everybody lies differently; everybody's behavior is different. We're not going to put people in a box, 'cause that's just dumb. However, what you're noticing is a deviation. Whenever she tells stories, she uses her hands, and then, for whatever reason, I asked a question—that question prompted something in Evie—and Evie put her hands away. She did a shift. And now you, having caught that, you're going to ask me more questions. You're not going to move on to the next topic. You're going to find a way to say, "I need to get Evie to talk more about who she went out with last night, because clearly something just happened." And is that because they're… they're going from their natural state of flow and whatever to more calculated, and they're… they're like overthinking part of… with lying, right? If we're just using lying… or if you ask me something, for whatever reason, let's say I don't want to tell you who I had dinner with last night, right? When I feel that I'm overwhelmed… I'm… in… in… dating… lying is hard. Lying is hard. You have to think of what you're saying; how am I going to say it? Is it going to be believable? I want to move the topic on; I don't want to get caught, 'cause who wants to be a liar? Although everybody lies to some degree, right? So it's overwhelming; it's actually a heavy cognitive load. That's why you have… that's why one of the things… like it doesn't mean it's the only thing, but one of the things we were taught to pay attention to—body language—to people… um… if you read them well, you'll know what to look for. And look for the deviations, 'cause everybody is uniquely different. But you would look at body language to see, "What are they doing with their body?" Because lying is hard, and usually you want to go still, and because you're putting so much of a cognitive load here, all this stuff goes away. So that free-flowing Evie telling you the story about, "I went out, I had dinner, I had a burger, it was great," goes away the moment you're like, "Well, who'd you go have dinner with, Evie?" And now, if in that moment I don't want to tell you, I'm having that "Oh, [expletive]" factor. What am I going to say? How am I going to say it? I'm overloaded, and so I stop moving. The body does less in that moment, in this specific scenario.

A second ago when you were talking about the study in New York where they examined how people walk and tried to figure out who walks like prey, I was… I was wondering, as you said that, I was thinking, "Can you fake it?" Because presumably how we walk is quite a subconscious thing, and it comes from, as you said, like the things we've been through in our life and who we've come to believe that we are. So after I heard that, do I just go out on the street and start walking with a bit more status and with my shoulders back, or am I still going to fail at some point? Yeah, this is… I think when I remember when I was younger and I started learning about psychology and human behavior and stuff, even though I knew the information, I think there was probably 990 other things that I was getting wrong that were projecting low value or… come disrespect me, or I actually don't have a high sense of self-esteem that I couldn't see. So if I can control this one little thing, it doesn't necessarily mean the other 999 things that matter in non-verbal communication are going to be aligned if I'm not truly believing that I'm confident and high value in myself. So "fake it till you make it," or do you have to do some inner work? I don't believe in "fake it till you make it," and I actually don't like that term. You know why? There's nothing fake about me or you. I don't need to be a fake version of myself. But what I can be is a more aware version of myself. And something as simple as just doing one thing… see, just that one thing… it's like, "You know what? I'm just not going to make myself small when I walk. I'm going to take up space. That's it. That's all I'm going to do." I'm not there to solve like a whole puzzle about why I am the way I am and why psychologically I walk this way. But I'm going to do one small thing that's going to make one small difference, and it's going to lessen slightly whether somebody decides to prey on me or not. That's it. And so you know what happens? Habit. You're going to break the habit of walking like this and being invisible to just creating a very simple habit of, "I just walk with my shoulders back." Now, shoulders back, shoulders back, when you go down the street. In fact, when I started doing the news and pay attention to my posture and I would sit and do the news, I'm like, "Shoulders back," like in my head, I'm like, "Shoulders back, shoulders back, shoulders back," because there were times I watch myself or even during commercial break my husband would send me a text. He's like, "Jesus Christ," he's like, "Sit up straight. You look terrible." He's like, "No one's going to believe…" he's like, "Stop slouching." And I'm like, "Oh, you're right." It's just… what am I projecting? So you… simple things you can do. So it's not one big thing we do over time; it's like… and… and I follow this too; it's like over life, it's like one small thing for me to change a habit of something that I do. Just start small, and then conquer that thing, and then move to the next thing, and then move to the next thing. But at the same time, be… be kind to yourself. Like, we can't just beat ourselves up. "I'm not this; I'm not that; I'm not confident." Like that narrative just takes you down, down, down, down, down. And you can literally… I'm also not telling you to be like, "I'm fantastic; I'm great; I'm this." It's just… just be here; just be like somewhere in the middle, you know? And speaking of which, it reminds me of—and this is kind of something a little bit different—but we talked about steadiness earlier, like how do you stay steady? And the one thing I also learned about steadiness and just kind of finding that space where you're… you're… you're in control, it's something called neutrality mindset. And actually the person who brought it more to my attention—you've had her on—Gabrielle Lyon. Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. She's married to a SEAL. Now, Gabrielle, who's actually my doctor—a Navy SEAL, she's married to a Navy SEAL—Dr. Lyon… when her book was coming out, she was asking me all these questions. She's like, "You know, my book's coming out…" you know, she was asking me questions. Smart woman, because I had a book come out. So she's like, "Let me ask Evie, who's had a book come out, her opinion on a couple of things." And at one point she said to me, "You know, were you nervous about whether it would perform well or not, or how it would do?" And I said, "No." And she's like, "No?" She's like, "You weren't worried it wouldn't make this list or that list?" I was like, "No, I didn't think about it." And she laughed. "Why are you laughing?" She's like, "'Cause you're all the same—you, my husband, all these Navy SEALs—she's like, 'You're all in the middle.'" And what she was talking about is we have a neutrality mindset, which means we don't celebrate high highs, but we also don't fall down on low lows. We're always in the middle. So going back to my book, if my book did well, it would do well because it was a good book and people liked it. That was it. And if it didn't do well, it didn't resonate. I wasn't tied to the fact that, "Oh my God, it's doing great; it's selling." I didn't celebrate that. Now you would look at like, "Why wouldn't you celebrate a high?" I can. But what I start to do is I cultivate a habit where I'm not tied to the external world. And when the external world is giving me this… this… this thing that I want, I'm happy. But the flip side is that when the external world is going to give me things I don't want, I'm also going to be tethered to that, and I'm going to sink down. But if I'm in the middle, I don't have high highs; I don't have low lows. I'm always somewhere here—neutrality mindset—which means emotionally I'm always stable, more than likely 99 or 90% of the time, whatever. That's neutrality mindset. I don't have high highs; I don't have low lows. Nothing destabilizes me to that point.

How do we get there? How did you get there? It's just… it's… well, you don't get… it sounds terrible, but one—you don't get overly excited when something happens outside. I'm not saying not to celebrate, but I'm also not going to be tethered—like I can only be happy now 'cause this thing outside of me happened—because now I'm training myself and my mind to be… when external things happen, then I can be truly, truly happy. Or when external things happen, I'm going to be truly, truly sad. But if when these external things happen, they don't pull me all the way up and they don't pull me all the way down, I won't have those highs and lows that other people will have. I can stay here. So I make sure that when something great is happening—very small example—I won't go out and tell everybody. I allow it to happen, right? And then people… if people congratulate me or give me good news, I say thank you, you know? But I don't like that to be the source of my happiness, 'cause it comes from here. Because let's say I did my book and it bombed. So what? So now, according to that theory, I should… what I should plummet and be like, "Oh my God, I'm a failure. I wrote a book; it was the only chance I had; it tanked; who am I? I'm this." So now my value is tied to… what… my emotional state is tied to what… how well or not well my book did. That's the problem. So the more stressful situations you can put in, the more places of uncertainty, the more you can manage these highs and lows, the more you're going to live here. And you know what else? Going back to who is in your inner circle, I don't like to be around people who lose their [expletive] when things break bad. I don't… as steady as I am, they will destabilize me; they just will. So I do my very best to try to keep a circle of people around me, as much as possible, of people that I know are steady. So going back to partners—I happen to have a partner, a husband, who's like that. Something can blow up, and he'd be like, "All right, let's go." He's not going to destabilize. So that is infectious on me. Now, can we have people around us that are… severely impacted? My mom—love you, Mom, sorry—but my mom, who's like very… at times can be emotionally impacted by the outside world. Yes. So I have to work very hard to compensate for that—to not let that impact me where I go high high and low lows. It's just awareness. But it's just… it's the external world; the external environment cannot be the thing that either brings you up or brings you down.

I completely agree. I mean, like, obviously running businesses and stuff is a prime example where you're just getting [expletive]—great news or bad news all the time—and to even try and move emotionally with whatever the news is today in your inbox would just be… I'd be like killed over on the floor, dead. However, there's so many people listening that would say, "Evie, I agree, but my nervous system just seems to run the shop. Like, I just seem to just get dragged around by good things and bad things, and I catastrophize when something bad goes wrong, and I just… I know what you're saying is true, Evie, but like, how do I get there? What's like… what's step one in becoming that person that isn't swung up and down on the roller coaster of life?" Do you know… I wish people gave themselves more credit. Like, they… they think sometimes people… like, "I'm not…" it's like, "You are!" Like, you have so much more authority and regulation over yourself than you realize. And I… I think sometimes the narrative out there is like, "Oh, this happened to you; it's not your fault. Or that happened to you; it's not your fault. Or this person did this to you; it's not your fault." And so what happens is the narrative that we hear right now is this external world is fluctuating you… it's not your fault. And so if it's not my fault, how can I stabilize it? So that's one thing. So I'm not saying it's your fault, but I'm saying you have the ability to self-regulate. Please stop listening to everybody else that's telling you it's not your fault; it's out of your hands; it's this; it's that. No. Everything always starts and ends with you. If you can just keep that… "I… it starts and ends with me." One, you're right there. Two, in those moments when you start to catastrophize or you start to feel yourself go that… where… stop. Literally just say out loud to yourself, "Stop it. Stop it." Talk to yourself; like, interrupt that thought. Just interrupt it; don't let it finish. Even if you're having a high high with something great happening, I'm not telling you not to be happy, but also don't over-sensationalize it. Don't go tell everybody, because then you're pulling yourself up; you're being tethered by that, right? I'm trying… what I'm saying is don't be this up-down yo-yo. Cut it. Just be like, "Oh, no…" like, literally just… just tell yourself… there's moments where I… like I talk to myself all the time. I… I'm… I'm my own voice. And so if there's moments where I think my voice is drowning out, I will say, "Hey, no, this is what we're going to do now." Talk yourself through it. It's such a powerful thing to really just stop the thoughts; just stop them and take ownership and say, "Stop thinking that." No. There's this… uh… person who used to tell me that one of the things that she used to say to herself was, "Cancel, cancel." And it was a negative thought or something bad, she would say to herself, "Cancel, cancel," out loud. So find something that interrupts it. That's where you just start. Like, we're not trying to do the whole feat; we're just trying to… to break these habitual patterns. And also, sometimes, I quite honestly… this nonsense stuff that we're fed that really keeps us… like… it just keeps us from being able to take ownership over ourselves.

I think what's really interesting as well in that "cancel, cancel" example is you're almost talking to someone, and that person is yourself. And as you were saying that, I was thinking, "Yeah, I think the… the fundamental underlying belief that you demonstrate and that that person's demonstrating is that they are not their thoughts." It's like they're talking to someone else, whereas most of us go through our life thinking that our thoughts are us. So if my brain starts going, "Oh my God, this is going to go so badly, and then it's going to happen like this, and then I'm going to lose my job…" you think that's yourself, and you don't think you could have a conversation with that voice. You know what I'm saying? But you can interrupt that voice. Like, you have the ability to say, "Stop." I remember speaking to Mo Gawdat on the podcast, and he says that he's named his brain Becky, so that he can do that, so that he can kind of detach from the thoughts. And so he'll say, "Becky…" he'll have a conversation with Becky, which I think is kind of smart, now I think about it. It's not a bad… bad way of detaching from your toxic thoughts. Talking yourself through things is actually good, even in… you know, going back even in training when we… we… they would… they would simplify things… like in some scenarios… like, "Hey, step one, this. Step two, this. Step three, this." Or they would create acronyms, like, you know, I'm going to make one up because I can't think of one, like, "Stop, target, move, shift." And they would teach you just say that to yourself as you're… as you're in this stressful situation. Like, if they created… they would create scenarios where there would be explosions, attacks… all right, talk yourself… and like, literally when you… we would do… let's say a scenario in Beltsville, and we do an ambush on… they create a… a system where they do ambushes on us. All right, fight yourself out of it. They're… because you're so overloaded with the stress of what's happening… um… and even though you know it's training, you don't want to look like… you don't want to look bad in front of your peers; you don't want to look like you don't know what you're doing; you want to do a good job. And sometimes, even though it's training, the body doesn't know it's training and thinks it's real life. There's moments… and literally like you'd be in these tactical scenarios and you would talk to yourself in your head, and sometimes you could do it even out loud. "Stop, shift, move, target, move, target, take…" you know… so I'm giving like a hypothetical example, but this ability to talk yourself through movements is also a very powerful thing. It can… it can stop like this… this… this mass amount of like the muck in your head and kind of clear it out. So I… I actually learned that in training, and they taught us like just tactical… uh… words, sentences, things to say to ourselves that would just help us habitually move through problems. Kinesis—just keep… just keep moving; keep moving through the problem.

There's an element of what you just said there, though, that raises another question, which is… there's a reason why they were doing explosions in training because they are trying to fully simulate and put you through the real-world examples that you're going to go through so that you develop some resilience. And I was thinking then, you know, we can talk about tactics and tricks and tips to do this all we like, but you've literally had to go through it in order to be able to deal with it. That's like the essence of the training you described. So is there not an element of this—everything we're saying here—where unfortunately you're just going to have to go through some [expletive] in

Negative connotation; it's not as powerful. I don't like it. To me, it feels like I lived through, survived this thing. This is how it feels because I'm trying to articulate it. It feels like I survived through it. It's like, no, I thrive through that; I live through that; I thrive through it. "Survive" makes me think I barely made it, which technically I kind of did, but I don't care.

One of the things that helped me get through it was when people, you know, there's trauma. Like you're watching, truly you're watching thousands of people die—people jumping, and like you can't do anything. Like you tried, we tried, I tried. So, and then after that, we had search, cleanup, and rescue efforts. I will tell you one of the things that got me through it, to the point where I barely dealt with any type of real aftermath, like PTSD or anything like that. I'm not saying I didn't get anything, but what helped me through is I wasn't that special; I wasn't alone in it. When you know you're not alone in the world, like you can get through anything. But when you tell yourself that you are that unique and that what is happening to you is just happening to you, then all your pain is special, all your problems are special, your trauma is special, and then nobody can help you, because it's just you going through it. How alone is that? And it's that mental shift of when you can hear other people's stories or see what other people are going through, and then you—that helps pull you through your stuff. I will tell you that "I'm not that special" has got me through so much.

I can see it in your face as you talk, and it's making me curious as to why this is so personal. Because I'm not special. I think, I don't know, I think it's a detriment when people think that they're that special. I think it takes you down. There's a story here you're not telling me. I feel like I don't think it's a story. We all think we're the sun, right, and everything moves around us. And when you are in that space, when you think you're that special, you self-analyze, you self—you go in a lot more. And you would probably say, "Well, that's good." Is it? Is it really that good for me to sit and analyze everything going on in my life? Or when I overanalyze, I overassess, I'm overly critiquing; I'm so focused on myself. Do you know what that actually does? It actually—you have higher rates of anxiety and higher rates of depression because I am so self-focused. Now, I'm not saying when I say you're not that special, I don't mean that you're arrogant or narcissistic or self-absorbed. I mean that you are so self-focused that the outside world fades, and it's just you and whatever it is you're dealing with. How can you get out of that? That's a very hard headspace to get out of. Why do they stay in that space, in your opinion?

I don't think that they realize that they're in that space. They're not listening. Like sometimes you can even talk to people; they're not listening to you. Why don't they want to listen? Like, why aren't they listening? I—because they don't think anything's wrong. Or sometimes they'll look to you and be like, "Oh, you're—you're—you like you don't know what I'm going through, or you don't realize…" Here's the thing: you and I talking about stuff from a place where we're trying to understand it objectively; we're looking to not live that way; where we're looking to understand it so we can share it with others. But the only people that are going to receive it are the people that watch this podcast and want to. And even then, when they watch this, they're going to pick and choose the parts that work for them, or the parts of this podcast that fit the narrative that they tell themselves.

Yes, and I was reading something over Christmas, which is really—a friend of mine, and I think it's part of why I'm so interested in this subject. It was called *The Courage to Be Disliked*, and in the opening chapter of the book, it confronts this. It's this kid basically arguing with this philosopher, and the kid is saying to the philosopher kind of exactly what we've said: "No, I'm a victim of my life; the things that happened to me, my trauma—this is the way that I am, and I don't believe I can change." And the philosopher is making the case to the kid that you can, in fact, change. And really the—like insight, the thing the philosopher ends up saying to this kid, which spun my brain for a while, and it's spinning my brain a little bit, is this idea that what happened to us doesn't determine our lives, but we use what happened to us to achieve a goal that we have today.

Now, to put this into like a practical, real example: if I am a kid that is 27 years old and I'm still in my mom's basement and I'm not going out there and getting a job, I might say, "Yeah, I want a job," but actually, being in my mom's basement is actually serving me in some way. And it might seem to be self-destructive to someone looking in, but my mom's bringing me my food; they finally show me attention. If I change, I lose the sympathy; if I change, I lose the attention. And actually, this attention has gotten a little bit addictive. This sympathy, this place of victimhood has gotten a little bit addictive to me in a way that I don't even know—in a way that's actually self-destructive in the near term and the long term, but at some subconscious level, I'm actually like addicted to my pain and suffering. And it's funny because when I was—so I read the book, and then I started writing because I like to read things then try and write them into my own like language. And I started thinking about someone in my own life, and uh, it's just—I finally figured out this individual in my life that's been in my life for a long time, who, when you look at the actions, you go, "They're ruining their own life," but when you dig deeper into their identity, being a heroic victim is everything to them. And actually, if this person walked into this room now and introduced themselves, it would take 60 seconds for them to get to a story of how they've been hard done by and how they've overcome it. But this means that help, aid, good decisions have had to always be secondary to protecting this narrative that they're a victim. And actually, sorry, going a bit of a rant here—at one point they were a victim; at one point, objectively, they went through some really horrific, horrible things. But the predator's gone now, so now they're looking for a predator, and it's ruined their entire life—it's ruined their home, their family, their financials—because even when good things come—good people come by, they find a way to make this person a predator, and they find a way to make them the heroic victim. And so it really shifted my brain about like even my own trauma and the narratives and this hero story I tell about myself. I'm like, "Maybe I'm using what happened to me to serve a goal I have today of projecting to the world that I am—filling the gap—whatever gives me validation and you know, reinforcement from people." So anyway, you know, it reminds me a little bit of, um, histrionic disorder or, um, where you pretend you're sick. It's like one of the disorders—you pretend either you're sick or your child is sick, um, because when you do that, you get a lot of attention. And so if I'm a victim of something or I'm going through something—"Are you okay? Are you alright? Do you need something?" And it does cultivate this attention, whereas if everything's okay, that all goes away. And so I—I think all of it—it's people—I think it's so many different things. People get comfortable; they don't want to get out of it; they don't think anything is wrong; it serves them; nothing's wrong with my life; who are you to tell me? It's like all these different layers. And and when it's people close to us, it's hard, and I just have surrendered that to things. Who am I to tell somebody else how to live? So if they think that that's the way they life needs to be—I do have a little bit—"I'm not that special"—so who am I to tell you that you should live this way? There's a little bit of—or a lot of—rather, let people live how they want to live.

It reminds me of what you were saying earlier about identity, and I was thinking of something I read recently that said, "Swaths of the effective people would go to great lengths to destroy things, including themselves, before they dare edit their own identity." There's a real element of truth in that. You're talking about identity and instrumental mindsets, and I wonder if there's a real risk to developing an identity because you've got an identity—Now, Secret Service agent, NYPD, strong woman, doesn't take [ __ ], says it how it is. Well, you know—so in the context of identity, the identity mindset, if we go back, it's—it's that "I'm special" mindset. I'm in an emotional state; I'm special. That's like identity mindset. That's how you know when you're talking to someone if they're instrumental or identity. If they're instrumental, they're task-oriented; they're moving; they're trying to solve problems. If they're identity, they're stuck; they're emotional—"I can't believe this; I can't believe this happening to me." So with that, when you can figure out what mindset somebody is in, then you can talk to them, but you talk to them in the mindset that they're in. If somebody is instrumental, I'm going to know this is a person that's just like, "Tell me what to do; just get to the point; I just wanted this, this, and this." There's no feelings; there's no stuff involved; there's no emotions. Somebody's identity, right? They are—it's about them; it's how it's affecting them. Typically, again, when we're very self-focused—higher depression, higher anxiety because overanalyzing things; we're in an emotional state. So when someone's there, it's good for you to know because you know, in that moment, they're not listening to what I'm saying; they are stuck in their space. Now, if I'm looking to progress the conversation, let's say they work for me, I'm going to sit and listen to them, let them offload to a point to get them where I need them to be, or to get them to get to—um—this instruction, this instrumental space. Like an agency—like the US Secret Service—it was very instrumental. Nobody wants to hear you complaining; get it done; fix this; do this. Because they didn't really have the luxury of being like that, because if you are like that, people die. It's just like you got to—you got to move on. But if your identity and where it's like you're really wanting other people to understand you—I'm not saying that we don't visit Identity Land once in a while—but you—it's not a great place to live, either, because you're so self-focused that you can't function. It's—it's me, me, me, me, me. But if you can master this—which you can easily do when you talk to people—you'll know that person's instrumental; they just need X, Y, and Z. That person's identity; your friend is Identity; the thing with them is their identity almost all the time. Yeah, that's when it becomes a problem. And I've got great empathy and sympathy because defense can become someone's personality, especially if at a younger age that defense was their survival.

Do you know what's interesting? Um, and the Harvard Business Review did a—a study on this; they wrote about this. Do you know that the more you go through, the less empathy you have? So you would think, let's say you've been through your hardships, you would think that because you've been through that stuff you would have more empathy, but as you rise through the ranks, you actually have less empathy because you've been through it; you've overcome it; and you kind of look at people like, "Can you please get it together?" So yes. And if you think about it, it makes sense because it's like, "Get through this; you—I've gotten through this," whereas if you're dealing with someone who hasn't gone through it or is in the lower—uh—ranks at work—they've got more empathy. Cuz also think of it, too—as you're going up in business, you're dealing with so—so many more people; you don't have the cognitive space or load to deal with everybody's stuff. So sometimes when people come to me—my boss—my boss—and my—my response is, "Do you know how much your boss is probably juggling?" It's not that they're a jerk; they're instrumental; they're just trying to get stuff done. And you being where you are—kind of lower in the hierarchy—you're not dealing with as much—trying to juggle as much, and so you're looking for more empathy; you have more space, more time. This person's up here; they're trying to keep that ship from sinking. So that's where a lot of people sometimes get lost with their supervisors. So it's interesting, too, because you know, I even noticed that for myself—I try to have empathy, but there's moments where you're like, "Man, I'm—"you know—it—it can be—you want to control it on the inside, but be like—there's times where you're like, "Can we please just get it together? Like it's—it's not that big of a deal."

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On our previous conversation, funnily enough, the most replayed moment in the conversation was where you talk about the dangers of victimhood. Stop, really? Yes. Yeah. The most replayed moment. Wow. I was quite surprised. I think people don't—I—I think most people don't want to be there anymore, you know, because it's not working out for them. It's not—that's why I think most people—most people—they're trying really hard. Most people who will watch this podcast or—or watch things similar to this, they're really trying hard, and they're trying to—to do better. I do believe that, and I think that's why a moment like that—because they're like, "I don't want to be here anymore; just help me get—get the [ __ ] out." You know, I respect that because they're trying—like they're trying really hard, as opposed to somebody who's just like, "I'm checked out." That really speaks to people—just saying like, "I know this isn't working; this isn't where I want to live; this isn't where I want to be," and it—it—it's—it's not getting me ahead in life. You know, I always—again, I live by this credence: if I go tomorrow, am I okay to go? And if it always sets things right for me. If you've lived in a way where you're like, "I've done or tried to do these things," then you've lived a full life. But being a victim prevents you from being—from living a full life. If everyone is hurting you, if everyone's out to get you, if everyone's doing something to you, if everybody is sliding you, if—if this person and that person—how are you living a full life if you're fighting everybody or pissed off at everybody because they disrespected you, they're not giving you what you need, they didn't validate this, validate that? How will you ever get anything done? How will you ever be instrumental? It doesn't mean you need to be a CEO or a Secret Service agent; doesn't mean you need to be anything like that—it—whatever your journey is like—how will you ever achieve that if you're so easily distracted by all this nonsense? Who says you have to have respect by everybody? It's nice; I—I welcome it, but I'm not always going to get respect. I can sit and check every single box off—"I'll be respectful to you; I'll be kind to you; I'll hand my things in on time; I'll show up on time; I'll do all these things; check all those boxes"—there are still no guarantees you'll give it to me. I know—I was a former cop, former agent; I didn't always get it. I was like, "I hope I get it, but I don't need it." But we tell people you need this. Who says—who—who says I need—I need everybody's respect? Who—and who am I to demand it? Who says I need everybody to like me? I don't want people to dislike me; I'm not going to do things to make people dislike me, but I'm also like—"I can't navigate my ship like that." And then, at the same time, if you stop and think about it—when people like—"Oh, get everyone to like you; be charismatic"—pause. Who are you making that about? You don't really care about the other person; it's me—"I want you to like me; I want you to think I'm charismatic"—comes back to me, me, me, me, me, me. How about there's a little less me and more of—"How can I be of service to this person? How can I help this person? How can I be more generous—generous to others? How can I give more instead of take so that I can feel fulfilled?" It's all about me and my fulfillment, my identity—"Where am I going? Me, me, me." I think we need a little less of that, and how about us, us, us? How about—"How can I help—help other people? How can I be of service? How can I be genuine?" And that rigs this whole thing—"Give me tips so everybody likes me; give me tips so I'm the smartest person in the—the room." If I'm the smartest person in the room, Stephen, I'm—I'm in trouble. I want to be the biggest dummy, like—because I'm not learning anything from other people. And who might have—think I'm this—why—why would you want that? You know, you see this marketing stuff come up, and we feed people garbage, and then we wonder why everybody's confused, why everybody has a void—because telling them—"You need more; you need more; you are enough; you are steady; you are good"—stop listening to all that; be a genuine human being; try to do the right thing by people; be careful, because not everyone's out to do the best thing for you, because people in pursuit of their own self-interest, they will screw you over. And that's okay; just don't be shocked when it happens; it happens. But move through steady and focus on being of service to others. Everything—like bring it back—and it's like—"Stop thinking about you; I promise you, you will have a better life; it'll be calmer; it'll be quieter; you'll be less depressed, less anxious, less—just because it's not all you; you're in it with everybody else."

There's something really interesting—I mean, there's so many interesting things you said there. I mean, the two kind of highlight points for me were this idea of playing the long game—of just trying to serve other people, and you'll achieve your objectives—versus trying to do the short-term game of maybe being nicey and caring too much about how you appear, which might help you maybe in the moment, but it's almost a form of long-term sabotage. And I guess this brings me to the question, which is like—"Should we try and make people like us?" No, because it's fake; because it's manipulation. That's why—who am I doing it for? If I'm trying to get you to like me, is that who you want? Or do you want the person who's going to come on this podcast and just have a genuine conversation and do her best to give you some valuable information to help people? Who do you want? You want me to be like—"I hope Stephen likes me; I hope he thinks I'm smart; I hope Stephen thinks I'm a good guest; I hope Stephen invites me back"? Is that what you want? And who did I just make all that about? Do I give a [ __ ] about you and your podcast? No, clearly I just care about Evie. That's the problem, because I'm manipulating you to fulfill myself. That's where it goes wrong. If somebody likes you, it'll be genuine; we don't manufacture it; it's disingenuous; people feel it. I'm trying to be charming and charismatic—first of all, major red flag for narcissistic personality disorder, number one. Really? Sure. A lot of them are. In fact, when you see that, always ask yourself—"Why is—what is motivating this person?" I always think like—"What is motivating this person?" So if, as I—I sit across from you, what's motivating you is you want to do a good podcast; you have millions of people who listen; you want to give them good content. Period. The end. You—you seem to be a big fan of being authentic, right? As a person, I just want to be genuine, and I don't want to be a [ __ ] artist. Nobody wants to be bullshitted; I've experienced it; nobody likes it. And it's not being authentic; it's just being genuine. Because also, like, you can't just walk into a room—"I'm like, 'I'm going to be me, and whoever likes it, likes it.' Like, good luck with that," right? You want to adapt to the environment and to people you're with and what mindset that they have and talking to them in a way that they understand—not you. So adapt—that's a bit more adaptability and—and connecting with people. Even when I talk to businesses, a lot of times one of the big things is—and they're learning this—a lot of businesses are moving away from being transactional—making the sale and just trying to get these short-term goals—and what they're shifting toward, which is smart, is long-term relationships with people. Because if you have a long-term relationship with a client and they genuinely like you—not because you charm them or you trick them, but because they genuinely like you—they're genuinely going to want to stay with you, and they're not going to want to leave and go do business somewhere else. That's why being genuine works, and you can be genuine and disagree with someone, too. That holds better—people—people vibe other people quite a bit, and they feel it. And if they feel your nonsense and they feel like you're tricking them or, you know, using tactics—even when I—sometimes I give keynotes—and I'll tell them—"I'm like, 'I'm not here to give you tips, tricks, or techniques; I'm not here for that.' I was like, 'Can I ask you a question? Do you like when people use techniques on you?' No. 'Do you like it when people use tricks on you?' No. 'So why would you do that? And why would you think that's going to take you places?'" It'll take you somewhere short term; long term, people going to drop you.

I was—um—watching your BBC Maestro recording, which, by the way, is fantastic, and I highly recommend anybody who hasn't seen it to go and check it out. Um, it's basically like a—it takes everything you're saying; it kind of turns it into a bit of a course. And there was a line you said in it which I thought was quite interesting, which is—"I wish you as much rejection as possible, because that will increase your self-confidence." You also saying that in the BBC Maestro piece that confidence is the number one thing you get asked about. "I wish you as much rejection as possible"—that kind of goes back to what we were saying earlier about how like going through difficult [ __ ] is—um—the best way to build a thicker skin. But who on Earth wants to go through rejection? Who—who on Earth—what kind of psychopath is going to self-elect to go through rejection? A person who wants to build their resilience. Because when you deal with it—so the BBC Maestro course is the art of influence—how to influence others. So going back to the ethos of that course was—and I—and I say it at the beginning—"I'm not here to give you tips, tricks, or techniques, because that's not going to influence people; we're not trying to trick people or manipulate people to get things out of them, because that's not going to help anybody in the long term; it won't help you in the long term." Influence is having the ability to have people to want to be around us, to have people to want to work with us, to have people who—to want to talk to us. That's what influence is—genuine influence. And like how we push that out there also in—in the class where I talk about rejection, because we split it up into certain parts—and one of the parts was your ability to understand yourself—kind of like you can't influence other people if you don't understand yourself. And so part of that is—"How resilient are you? How steady are you?" And you don't build those things unless you deal with rejection, unless you deal with people pushing back. Maybe be a psychopath and embrace the things that everybody else is too terrified to embrace. Everyone's so scared of being rejected, so why don't you be the deviant? Don't be like everybody else and be like—"I'm ready for it; I'm good with it"—because the more you deal with it, the better you are at dealing with it, and you're going to get it anyway.

On that point of better understanding yourself, the—the other thing I found was this thing you talk about, which is the Animal Wheel, which is a framework that helps people understand themselves by finding out what their communication style is. I'll put this Animal Wheel on the screen for people that are watching on video, but for people that can't see, because they're listening—Spotify, Apple, or somewhere else—what can you explain to me what this Animal Wheel is? So that was created by researchers—Dr. Lawrence and Emily Allison; they're actually in the UK—and they created a way to break behavior down—behavior of people. They actually watched thousands of hours of interview tapes—law enforcement, intelligence—and they were coding people's behavior. So basically, they were like—"What behavior is this person?" So there's two important things: one is we don't label people; we label behavior. You label behavior because people change; people are fluid, for the most part; people are fluid. So I need to look at—"Who do I have across from me in this moment?" So how they identified behavior of people, they—they gave them four animal archetypes: Lion, Monkey, Mouse, T-Rex. Lion is someone who's in charge, setting the agenda—"I'm in control"—that's Lion. When you have your meetings with your team and you're the one talking and your team sitting listening, you're Lion in that moment; he's in charge, setting the agenda. Mouse is a person who is patient, looking to learn; they're trying to get information; they're eager; they're humble, seeking guidance. It can be the people on your team who are sitting quietly because they're trying to learn—probably in some sense right now, you and I switch back and forth from Lion, and then our viewers, they're all Mouse; they're all here, humble, seeking guidance—"What can I learn?" That's—that's that. But it's fluid. Now, a person who is Monkey—Monkey is an animal where you're social; you're warm; you're talking to people—"Hi, how are you? Good, how are you?" That's what that is, right? And then they're probably going to be that back to you, right? Bad Monkey, which you probably—you probably get a lot, is—"Hey, Steve, I got a great idea; can I just share it with you? Hey, let me just put you something real quick"—uh—that's pleading; that's desperate; like that's really wanting something. Now, the other animal is T-Rex. T-Rex, which is something I tend to lean a little bit more towards, which I work very hard not to be, but that's a person who—um—is direct, frank, and forthright. It's also a person who's like—sounds just like the animal—you're more ready to fight. Like something happens, and you're like—"Let's go." Um, there's a good version of that; there's a bad version of that. All of these have a good and bad version, but that's T-Rex. The key to people is not for you to dominate; the key to people is for you to identify the person in front of you in that moment and then adapt to that behavior. So if I've got, for example, if you're a Lion and I'm trying to be Lion, we're both competing; nothing's going to happen; like you're going to be talking, and I'm going to be trying to talk over you; it doesn't work. But if I see—"Okay, right now Steph's Lion; he's the one talking; he's guiding the conversation; he's doing this meeting"—I'm going to go Mouse; I'm going to be humble, seeking guidance—"Yes, Stephen, I'm listening; I want to learn." So the wheel actually helps you identify who you have in front and then where do you go based on what you have in front. Now, if I'm dealing with someone who's Monkey, I go to this event; you're going to this event; people are talking to you. When you have Monkey, you also display Monkey, which is warm, social, respectful. However, you want to be aware of like when people are the bad version of that, which is they're trying to sell you something; they want something from—from you. You maintain that warm, social, respectful, but you realize—"I've got Bad Monkey in front of me; I need to keep distance." And T-Rex is—if I've got someone who's T-Rex—uh—it just means being direct, frank, and forthright. But it also teaches you how to deal with another T-Rex. That story you told me earlier—that guy that you checked—that you had checked—he was being T-Rex; he was attacking you behind your back; he's still attacking you, because you can attack somebody not to their face but behind their back—you gossip, you slander, you hurt their reputation—that's T-Rex; that's Bad T-Rex, by the way. So you had Bad T-Rex, and then you came in—I don't think you were Bad T-Rex—you came in as Good T-Rex, but you were frank, forthright, and direct—"Hey, I heard about that stuff you just said outside to this person; if you have something to say, please say it to me." You actually—Good T-Rex—you address them. And what happens is when you have T-Rex, you have to be T-Rex, too. You just can't be Bad T-Rex, where you're patronizing, sarcastic, and insulting people. But you come in and you be direct, frank, and forthright, and you address the person. It's okay to address people; it's okay not to let stuff slide, so long as you are regulating your behavior. But the way you do this is these animals help you realize—"Who do I have in front of me?" It also helps you realize—"Who am I more?" I know when I see this, I'm T-Rex, hands down; I have to work on it. But some people—when we talked about people who are very subservient or weak or dismissive or avoidant—for them, their Mouse—Bad Mouse. And when you realize—"I go Mouse a lot"—then that tells you—"You know what? I need to be a little bit more Lion in my life." So on this wheel, the reason why it's a wheel is because the behavior that I'm getting is on the outside, and the response that I should give them is the thing on the inside. Is that—is that right? There's four animals; each animal has a good version and a bad version. Good version Lion is—"I'm in charge; I'm setting the agenda; I'm a boss who's really just trying to guide and lead his team," okay? Bad version of Lion, which is outside that outer perimeter, okay—dogmatic, demanding, rigid—"This

I need a psychology test, something similar to the MMPI-2 (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory). They try to identify behaviors like narcissism or hypochondria, underlying issues I might have. To avoid such scenarios, you must remain steady. People will try to bait you into their nonsense. In law enforcement, you can't be baited; if you are, it's a problem. You shouldn't be wearing the uniform or badge. I'm not saying you should be hurt or take physical abuse, but you must control your words and behavior. You mentioned an important point earlier—it doesn't mean being passive; it means intentionally choosing your battles, not being controlled emotionally.

Nobody's happy to see law enforcement. They're not happy because someone's getting arrested, something bad happened, or you're about to arrest someone they care about. It's all bad news. You have to go in understanding that. If you're offended because you're not respected, remember, the badge isn't for that; you're a peacekeeper, and you must manage your behavior.

I remember at the NYPD Academy, they'd take us to the FDR Highway, which runs along the East River in Manhattan. We'd run long distances while cars sped past at 50-60 mph. Pre-9/11, people would spit on us, curse, and call us names. The first time this happened, I yelled back. My instructor stopped me, saying I shouldn't react that way. He said I needed to manage myself because people will hate you, and if you can't control yourself, you can't manage the job. That's when I learned that's not how you earn respect. Controlling others begins with self-control.

That study about animals showed that the most successful interviewers could switch communication styles and understood both their own and the suspect's style. To be successful, do I need to adopt all communication styles contextually? I know people who are always "Mouse"—passive and agreeable. I can't imagine them being demanding or direct like a "Lion" or "T-Rex." How can those people be successful? They'll struggle because they suppress themselves. There's nothing wrong with being "Mouse"—in fact, it's often best. "Mouse" is humble, seeks guidance, listens, and gathers information.

If I'm trying to understand Stephen, I'll learn more by asking good questions than by talking. Many think they need to be in charge, but you can be, and there are times for that. However, "Mouse" gets the most information. Be a good "Mouse"—humble, seeking guidance. Ask Stephen what he wants, what matters to him, and then listen. Understand his values and beliefs. Speak intelligently about what he cares about, not what you care about. Don't be a bad "Mouse"—weak, submissive, and avoidant; that's when people will victimize you.

I can be "Mouse," but I don't want to become so conflict-averse that I'm steamrolled. Can mice be leaders? No. It would be irresponsible to make someone a leader without some "Lion" in them. They need "Lion" to withstand challenges calmly. You want a balance of all the animals—the good versions. You need to know when to be "Lion." If you're a leader or selecting someone for a leadership role, they need some "Lion" in them. They can't all be "Mouse."

If negotiating a pay raise, come prepared with facts. Don't say, "I deserve a raise." Say, "I closed this deal and made this much money." Facts are hard to argue against. If I'm asking for a raise, I'll be "Lion"—in charge, setting the agenda, presenting my facts methodically. But even then, let the person feel heard, even if you say no. What if they say no? Do you become "Mouse"? No. I'd ask why. That would be "T-Rex." Bad "T-Rex" is attacking and sarcastic; good "T-Rex" is frank, forthright, and direct. You can address people directly without being ugly. You can't control their behavior, but you can control yours. Stay on the good wheel, and don't be afraid to deal with difficult people. Think of it as practice. It helps develop your "T-Rex."

One in 25 people has antisocial or narcissistic personality disorder—buckle up.

Our closing tradition is for the last guest to leave a question for the next. The question for you is: On your deathbed, what do you want your legacy to be? I want to have given to the world, added value, not taken from it. I want to have lived a full life. Listen to my BBC course; it's fantastic. My book, *Becoming Bulletproof*, is also easy to read and covers overcoming fear, mental resilience, influencing people, and much more.

Thank you. You remind me of things I quickly forget. You're helping millions, and your legacy is on course. There's relatability, wisdom, frankness, and nuance in your approach—the truth is often in the middle. Thank you for being you.