Transcription
The more we come at someone with intensity, the more we actually reduce their IQ points. Their brain gets flooded with cortisol and adrenaline, which diminishes the higher centers of their brain responsible for judgment, reasoning, and problem-solving. As long as we keep them in a defensive mode, we hinder those functions. What we want to do is approach them with empathy, understanding, and listening, allowing them to relax enough so we can speak the truth and have a chance of it being considered. But nobody listens if you're attacking.
I'm excited to have Dr. Henry Cloud with us again for takeaways. Dr. Cloud is a clinical psychologist and a bestselling author. Today, he’s going to guide us through a really helpful topic: how to have a difficult conversation. Dr. Cloud, thanks for coming back and hanging out with us on Tableau.
Now, we’re not going to have a difficult conversation. No, no, no. This is the easy conversation about a difficult conversation. I love that you titled it that way because we all have one that we’re avoiding—a difficult talk with someone we care about. We don’t want to ruin the relationship. Why is it so hard to have difficult conversations? What makes them difficult?
Well, it’s basically a formula. The research shows that we’re having a difficult conversation when three things are present. One is that the stakes are high; in other words, what we’re talking about really matters. It’s not just about the weather. Secondly, when the emotions are high, and thirdly, when we have different perspectives. That’s when we bump up against each other. It really matters to me what we’re talking about, I have strong feelings about this, and you don’t agree with me. Or maybe you have a behavior that I don’t agree with, and it’s hurting me. That makes it difficult.
You said exactly the right thing. There’s something to lose. It might be the relationship. People fear they’re going to lose their relationship or the connection in the relationship. Or they might lose what they’re fighting for. But I believe there’s a cost if we don’t have the conversation.
Absolutely. We’re going to lose honesty. What do we lose if we avoid the conversation?
You’re exactly right about the first one. We lose honesty. A lot of times, it’s the honesty that actually causes the flaws. The Bible is pretty clear that sometimes honesty can cause division. Jesus said he didn’t come just to bring everybody together, but sometimes to divide. That actually happens sometimes. If you have a heroin addict living in the house, they don’t want to hear that they have to get sober or they can’t live there. Sometimes these conversations have real consequences, but without them, we have worse problems.
Generally, people will reach a point where they know they have to have the conversation because letting something continue as it is is like not going to the dentist when you have an infected tooth. That’s not going to get better. Whoever said time heals all things was crazy. Tell that to an infected finger. Time is involved in healing, but it’s time plus the grace of God plus truth and honesty.
I’m sure that over the decades you’ve been counseling people and writing books about challenging relationships, you’ve seen a shift or maybe an increase in the intensity of having tough conversations because of the impact that social media and the Internet have had on people.
A lot of people are coming into difficult conversations without preparing properly. Many people avoid the most important principle. Jesus said we have to get the log out of our own eye first before we go into a conversation like that. The problem with social media is that sometimes we go into these conversations already amped up because of everything we’ve read or what our family tells us about the other family member.
First of all, we’ve only heard half the story to begin with. Secondly, we have our own emotions that will only get in the way. They matter, and we have to listen. The Bible says to be angry, but in your anger, don’t sin. One of the most important things in getting ready is to ask yourself some questions. Why am I so amped up about this? That will lead you to a good list of things you can write down because this really matters to me. This is something I want, this is something I don’t want, this is what I want to get across, and this is what I want to ask for. We have to get clear.
We’re not going to communicate those things clearly or effectively if we’re still angry. Like a sponge, we have to bleed out the water. Go bleed the emotion off before you get there and get clear about what you’re going to say.
Secondly, ask yourself what stories you’re telling yourself in your head about this person or the situation before you go in. If you’re just talking your own stories, you’re going to miss the person, and you won’t be listening.
I can think of potential difficult conversations I have, and I’m thinking to myself, I’m getting amped up about this because it involves truth. It involves what my faith is all about. It involves the word of God. There’s something in me that wants to set the record straight. I’m also amped up because I know that if this doesn’t go well, it could affect my relationship with other people who know this individual, like my wife, my kids, or my boss.
All of a sudden, I’m thinking, wait a minute. I’m having second thoughts about even having this conversation because it’s probably easier just to pray for the person.
It is easier to pray for somebody. But sometimes we’re so amped up that we can’t even pray for them. The Bible tells us to pray for our enemies, and Jonah had a problem with that one. But we need to have conversations, particularly if we want to have honest, authentic relationships and friendships. We can’t have closeness without going through our differences first.
We can’t go through our differences without understanding where the other person is coming from, even when we disagree. God had a great phrase: “Come, let us reason together.” He never went in guns blazing.
You make a good point about how sometimes this really matters, and it might be the truth. We have to remember what John 1 says: “The law came through Moses, but grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.” The law is true, but Paul says in Romans that the law brings about wrath. We know that when solving difficult conversations, we don’t lead with our wrath. That comes after it’s all over, when the judge has the gavel. We have to go into it with grace and truth.
You don’t need to be weak on the truth at all to be graceful.
Are there times when we think a conversation is going to be difficult, but it really doesn’t need to be? Maybe we make it more difficult than it needs to be?
Absolutely. A lot of the time, we plan for it to be difficult because of our own fears and our own perceptions of the other person. I had a situation the other day where I had to bring up something difficult with someone. I was expecting them to be defensive and hurt. You know what they said? “You’re right. I’ve been thinking about that. I did kind of screw up there.” I wasn’t expecting that. I got all worked up for nothing.
What about knowing the difference between whether we are disagreeing with one another—like you’re wrong and I’m right—versus just having different opinions? Can we agree to disagree without it becoming World War III? Are there different approaches?
I think there are different approaches because some things are really matters of opinion. Some things are matters of style and expectations. The problems arise when we moralize our preferences.
How many times has a couple, not that this has ever happened in my house or yours, had one partner who is more structured than the other? One is a little neater, while the other is more spontaneous. The one who is neater tends to moralize that, thinking, “This is the way it ought to be.” The other one might think, “It’s fine to be flexible.”
We have to be careful when we’re trying to speak the truth to someone that we’re not making something an absolute truth when it’s just a preference. The Bible is very clear about this. There are disputable matters, and it says to keep your mouth shut about those and do it your way while accepting that the other person doesn’t. However, there are some things that are right and wrong.
You’ve heard the phrase, “All sin is sin.” Sometimes people say that to justify their particular sin or to accept whatever it is. They act like it’s all equal, but it’s not all equal. Jesus said you tithe mint and dill and cumin, but you’ve neglected the weightier matters of the law, like justice, mercy, and faithfulness.
We have to look at what we’re doing and what we’re going to prioritize. Sometimes, with a teenager or a spouse or family member, there may be a lot to address, but we’re going to let some things slide because one issue could be life or death. If everything is important, nothing is.
That reminds me of a doctor in triage at the emergency room. He has all sorts of problems with a patient who just walked in, but if their lung just collapsed, that’s the priority. Who cares if their finger is broken? We need to pay attention to the life-threatening issue first.
Proverbs says it is a glory to a man to overlook an offense. If I really want someone to know Jesus or if they’re struggling in their faith, there are certainly some issues they need to clean up. I’m not so concerned that they clean up first to get to the one who can clean them up. I want them to get to the one who can clean them up before they clean themselves up.
That’s a great point.
We’re about to get into how to actually have the conversation. But if there’s one thing we need to remember, what is the most important thing to think about when going into the conversation?
Am I ready? That means I’ve really looked at everything inside of me. Do I know what I want? Have I dealt with my emotions? Can I go in there and speak clearly, but with a lot of grace at the same time? I need to be ready to listen before anything else. The Bible says, “He who gives an answer before he hears is a fool.”
Once I know I’m ready to go in and have this conversation, what is my goal? Is it to win the argument, or is it something else?
Are you an attorney going into a courtroom? Not right now. Sometimes it feels like it. Then probably winning the argument isn’t the best goal because when we’re talking about winners and losers, that happens in a courtroom. At the end, someone hears this argument, someone hears that argument, and the jury or the judge hits the gavel. You win, you lose, you pay, you go to jail.
In these situations, sometimes conversations break down, and that’s where we end up. Jesus said something interesting: “Settle things with your adversary before you get to court.” If that’s in the background, we don’t want to walk out of here with a winner and loser. That puts us in a different mindset.
In most of these situations, the relationship is paramount. We have to walk in with a goal, affirming the relationship, affirming the person, and affirming what we really want. For example, “Kurt, our relationship matters to me. You matter to me. I value the work we’ve been doing together. I want to talk about some things so we can do it better.”
There are a few things that could help us do that. I’d like to spend some time to see if we can get to a good place to move forward and do an even better job.
Now, what we just said—somebody write that down. I need to say that.
The goal is not to win or lose; it’s to solve a problem. I want to see that right now, we’re on opposite sides of the table. I want to come over, and let’s get on the same side of the table and put the problem over here. I’m going to try to get to a place where you and I can be teammates in solving that problem.
If I go in wanting to win or lose, I could try to do that. You might be better at it, but we’re not on the same side of the table then. It’s really important to get clear in your head about what you want out of this.
Sometimes what I want is to end something. Sometimes we have to fire someone. Sometimes, as Matthew 18 says, we have to separate from someone. Or maybe you’re breaking up with a boyfriend or girlfriend. You’re ending something.
But most of the time, that comes as the last step after trying to fix the problem multiple times. We need to be clear that we would like to have a good relationship; we just want to solve a problem.
The problem might be in the other person’s behavior, or it might be that you and I want different things, and our needs are in conflict. If we can work together, how can we both get what we need by giving up our particular positions on this?
If we get locked into our positions, we won’t solve anything.
So, I’m ready. I know what I’m looking for, and that’s not to win the argument; it’s to solve a problem together with this person.
What are some tips on how to clearly articulate my goals and my approach?
Let’s say, for example, someone has a bad behavior, like overusing substances or not paying bills. It’s very important that we stay out of the accusatory tone, even though we’re talking about their behavior. I’m ultimately there because something matters to me, as well as because I care about you.
Even if it’s about the other person’s behavior, I could say, “I really want to be close to you, but when you overdrink and pass out like you did last night, or when you start yelling, I go away inside. I want to be close to you. I think you want that too, but I can’t as long as you’re doing that. I want to talk about solving that because I want to be close to you.”
What I’ve done is point out their drinking problem, but I’m making it about what I really want, which is our relationship, and this problem is getting in the way of that. I’ve also said, “I think you want us to be close too, and I don’t think you would want to do anything that makes it difficult for that to happen, but I can’t be close to you if you’re yelling at me.”
What about when tensions are running high, and it’s very difficult for you to fully listen to what the person is saying because they’re saying things that just aren’t true? You want to say, “Wait, hold on. Time out.” You want to interrupt and correct the false statement they made or at least the statement you believe is false.
How do I continue to listen when all I want to do is correct?
The first thing is that we really do have to manage our emotions. If correction is a possibility, that requires the other person to take in new information. As long as they are defensive, their brain won’t let anything new in because it’s trying to get safe first, either by fighting or fleeing.
The more we come at someone with intensity, the more we reduce their IQ points. Their brain gets flooded with cortisol and adrenaline, diminishing the higher centers of their brain responsible for judgment, reasoning, and problem-solving.
What we want to do is approach them with empathy, understanding, and listening, allowing them to relax enough so we can speak the truth and have a chance of it being considered. But nobody listens if you’re attacking them.
The wrath of man does not accomplish the righteousness of God. Sometimes we have to be firm before someone finally gets it, but most of the time, that’s after everything else has failed.
If someone has something that’s just wrong, you can still say it in a non-adversarial way. You can say, “I hear you. I understand that’s how you remember it. The way I remember it is different, and here’s how I remember it.”
But I’ve said it in a way that gives a possibility of them saying, “Well, gosh, you’re right. You did walk through the door first.” There’s a possibility of that.
Sometimes you’re going to hit a log jam on this reviewing the history thing. Generally, the best thing is to say, “You know what? We have different recollections of this for a lot of reasons. Who knows? We don’t have a tape of our conversation, or we should have written it down. But what’s the best way forward? What do we do now?”
Given that you think we agreed to $10 and I think we agreed to $8, where do we go from here?
Again, we want to get on the same side of the table to solve the problem together. I would start with, “Tell me what you really want going forward. There are a lot of different ways we can solve this, but the best way is to figure out a way forward that’s good for both of us.”
Let’s talk about that. What’s the way forward?
That’s where we want to get—to move toward resolution and relationship health again. What I’m not saying is that we go forward by giving in to things that aren’t right. If someone is abusive, for example, we can’t say, “Just because I want to go forward, you get to continue being abusive.”
What we’re saying is that with forgiveness, I can forgive the past. Forgiveness is free, but trust for the future has to be earned.
Finally, what do we do if we do all the things you’re talking about here, all the things you lay out in this book, and we’re doing everything right, but the other person is just going ballistic? They get emotional, they get upset, they say this conversation’s over, or they can’t believe you think that, and they just lay into you.
Well, I’m sorry you feel that way. The last thing I want to do is upset you, and the very last thing I want is for you to leave upset. Even if you leave upset, which is fine if you need some time to think about this, the last thing I want is for us to not be able to revisit this and see if we can get to a better place.
Just because you’re upset doesn’t mean I have to be. It takes two to fight. Always remember that.
It takes two to have a fight. You can pull the plug on a fight just by not engaging.
Here’s a little formula: empathize and stay firm on your limit. I’m sorry that what I’m telling you is frustrating to you, but it is what I need, and I need to hold to that. I really don’t want it to upset you, but if it does, I get it, but I have to say no. I hope we can get past that.
I’m really sorry it upsets you.
Next time I have a difficult conversation, I might show up on your phone and put my wife on the phone for you to talk to her, Dr. Cloud.
Time it correctly when I’m in one of those situations.
We’ll let them talk to each other.
Deal.