Transcription
Really excited! We're going to get right into this one now with TikTok Shop. We're seeing what I think is the next Amazon. More or less, what route would you advise someone who's just starting out to get to $10,000 a month in income on their own? I am writing checks to some of these kids that are mind-blowing to me. That's what you're saying: your content just sucks. You just got to be better at scripting, delivering, pacing, packaging it up, and making good content. You're trying to win on social. One of the biggest changes for me was accepting that it is a game. 10 out of 10! I've never looked at it one time. Let's make some internet money!
All right, guys, welcome back to Sweat Equity. Today's guest is Robert Oliver. He's a serial entrepreneur who had a $30 million exit before he was 30 years old. He is now a content creator and building multiple brands. Some really awesome stuff you're going to learn today is how to find a winning product, how to actually market it differently than your competitors, and leveraging your content play to build a community in an info product downstream. So, really excited! We're going to get right into this one. Let's make some internet money!
Thank you for having me, W. I appreciate it. Yeah, welcome! Welcome to, I guess, you've been in Austin for a bit, but great to have you in town from Puerto Rico. Yeah, I know I'm happy we got to finally do this, but I want to be on for a bit.
Yeah, so I think what would be really cool for our audience is just kind of giving some context on your background, your come-up, and sort of, you know, I think the headline behind your story is a big exit before 30 years old. So, if you could just frame the story as how you decided to build a supplement company on Amazon and what eventually led to that big outcome.
Yeah, for sure! So, I'll give you kind of the cliff-notes version of this. I graduated college when I was like 22, graduated a little bit early, trying to figure out what I want to do with my life. I like supplements. I was the guy that was always tinkering with my own stuff. You know, being a college basketball player, I was like, I need an athletic advantage. So, that kind of drew me to the whole working out world and all of that.
So, I graduate, and I'm looking for what I want to do next. I remember my uncle is brokering brands on Amazon and consumer electronics. Yeah, and my uncle is like, sorry, he's not the smartest guy, and he's making a [ __ ] ton of money. So, I'm like, huh, okay, something's going on here. I didn't fall into that make money niche as a kid. I don't know, I just wasn't really on social like that. I didn't see the Tai Lopezes. I don't have that background. I ended up on Amazon by total fluke. I see what he's doing, I ask some questions, and I'm like, you know, maybe I can help supplement brands sell on here.
And so, that's what I do. I just go down the bodybuilding.com top list. "Hey, my name is Robert Oliver. I'm an Amazon expert. Can I help you?" Obviously, I'm not an Amazon expert at the time, but these brands, you know, some of them gave me a shot. I find out you put these products up there, and all of a sudden, you are doing meaningful sales with like no work. You just have to get them listed, like the very basics, and all of a sudden, they're making sales.
Were you cross-checking if they were on bodybuilding.com but not Amazon?
Yeah, I was going down like the top... yeah, exactly. And at the time, though, none of them were on Amazon. Like bodybuilding.com and those websites had all their... because they would do all the affiliate stuff, but they weren't on Amazon. That was like the peak of the bodybuilding.com era. If you were a top five brand on bb.com, you were a top five brand in the industry.
Yeah, and so I remember going down this list, and all these guys hated Amazon. But, you know, I was persuasive enough to get some of them to give me a shot. You put the brand up there, and all of a sudden, you're doing sales. I'm getting commission. Now I'm curious. I'm like, you know, I get my first $5,000 a month or whatever, and I'm like, oh, this is interesting. So, I start tinkering. Oh, if you get more reviews, you get... like I slowly started to become the expert.
Where it all broke for me was when these guys were stuck in their ways in the sense that, hey, we've been up on Amazon for four months. All of a sudden, it's 30% of your business. You're not wanting to commit to this channel. You think it's a discount channel. You think it's this, you think it's that. You know, you're going to keep doing Vitamin Shoppe, GNC, bodybuilding.com. I'm screaming at you like your business is growing here.
And long story short, these guys weren't listening to me in a meaningful way. I got closer to these companies. I saw a lot of them were ran kind of like clown shows, really no care for the actual products. And so I go, you know what? I think I can do this better. 24-year-old kid, 24 at the time, and I'm like, I've been fascinated with this industry. I've been studying it. I've been making my own stuff. And so that's what kind of prompted me to start my own brand. I took what little savings I had, poured it in, and just like started two products, like hardly anything.
What were those first two?
The first was Genius Caffeine and Genius Burn. Nice! And the thesis was all fat burners are like trash scams loaded with stimulants. I was like, let me make one with no stimulants whatsoever that actually modestly works, and it costs four times what these guys cost. Like, that's what that formula would cost to actually be effective, right? And so I took that approach, launched it, and it took off. I was like, okay, I got something here. Just kind of kept reinvesting every dollar I made back into, you know, innovation, new products, and I never looked back.
Over like a four-year period, I stayed hyper-focused on Amazon. All the other channels died out, and eventually, like, you know, real money poured into Amazon. Institutional buyers, everyone realized how big of an opportunity it was. The money's real. Obviously, I didn't know that till like the very end, you know? And that's what kind of grew me up.
Yeah, I'd actually taken one of your products probably two years ago, the Genius Joy one.
Yeah, yeah, it was great! And then it was funny because then I learned about you when you came to our meetup, whatever it was, four or five months ago, and you talked... somebody told me about the brand that you built, and I was like, oh [ __ ]! Like, I've bought your supplements before! Like, Genius was great. Great product!
That's another example. That was kind of my thing. I'd look at things in my own life. Like, I had struggled with anxiety and depression. I'm looking at what doctors are prescribing. I'm like, yo, this game's like [ __ ] up. And then you go look on Amazon, and there's no, you know, actual natural products trying to solve that in any meaningful way. It's like little cheap stuff, you know, anxiety pills, 20 bucks. And so Joy, that was a $60 product. It had never been done, but I was like, you know, this will actually make a difference.
And just our repeat business and using that platform as kind of a springboard was able to, you know, build a real brand.
So, let's talk a little bit about the numbers because the headline is you had a $30 million exit. What were kind of the year-by-year jumps in revenue until you ultimately sold the business?
I need to like write this down like permanently because I've said it a couple of times. I mean, first year, yeah, it was like a million. Ballpark is fine. Yeah, we did a million first year, and then I think we jumped to like five, and then it was 10, and then we like exploded to 30.
Oh, really? In the fourth year, 30 rev?
And there were some ups and downs, and it was kind of all over the place. The jump from 10 to 30, we would have done way more that year. We did 10, but Amazon wiped like half of our products out in this like crazy review sweep. And then six months later, they gave us our products back. So, that's why we had that explosive last year. That's also why I was so... I should have held that business. Honestly, it probably could have been a $100 million thing, but I was so fearful after the Amazon issues, right? That when we got it all back, I was like, somebody take this off my hands. Platform risk, platform risk.
And just, you know, not the... I didn't have the foresight at the time, honestly.
Yeah, that's interesting you say that because I think a lot of... so many entrepreneurs do get their first exit, and the immediate thought a few years later is like, oh, now I have all these skills. I could be doing X with that business that I sold. I could have made it so much bigger. And it just seems like that's such a consistent thing. Everyone with an exit is like, damn, I sold too early.
And just one note for everyone watching too, I think as you're building something, it's actually a lot harder. You forget how hard it is to get it off the ground.
Yeah, like that 0 to 1 million, 0 to 5 million is like really taken for granted.
Yeah, because, you know, after that, I started more during COVID, and I had a couple of businesses fail. Yeah, like, you know, same playbook, everything I know, but it's like, it's just really hard to get it from that to that. But once you have it established, you have people that like the products, and like you have some recognition, it's like, no, that's like a really good asset.
Yeah, and if you zoom out, you don't have to be as frantic day-to-day, and you can make strategic decisions, and you can build something even bigger if you set the foundation right. And I just left after the foundation was right. But hey, live and learn.
Was that why you started practicing stoicism? Because of that situation of Amazon pulling products and you being like, this is my whole company?
What got you into it?
My nerves were so fried after that whole thing. And then the process of selling was horrible because you have that in the back of your mind that this could go away. It was literally, to me, by the end of it, it's a six-month process. Yeah, you're selling your business. You're going through due diligence. They're ripping your books apart. You're answering all these questions about why this happened, why that happened. And the whole time, you're like, I could wake up, and this thing could be gone.
And in my head, it becomes, yo, I'm either going to be a multi-multimillionaire, or I'm going to have to lay off my friends and have nothing and be embarrassed. Like, that's the equation I created in my head. And it wasn't rational per se, but I was really living like that. Two weeks before the close too, there was a little glitch on Amazon. I would wake up at like 3:00 in the morning every night just because I wake up at 3:00. I check the products, and all the reviews are gone again on one of them. And I'm like, oh, you know, [ __ ]! Like, it's actually happening. And then it was a glitch, you know?
Yeah, but anyways, do you have to tell the person that acquired you that they pulled all your products, or do you like kind of keep that under wraps?
You know, on something like that, like there's a blip in the financials you have to explain. Yeah, and generally speaking, I think it's good practice. Like, we told them everything we did, and then they have to get comfortable with the risk because if you don't, and there's all these, you know, what do they call them? Just general disclosures. If you don't disclose that stuff and something comes up, they're going to come back and sue you, you know, if they lose their investment.
And the other thing is you're building a machine that they are buying. You're building the engine that drives that revenue versus obviously if you're removed from the business, then everything has to be automated without you. Yeah, you know, like if you tried to sell your community that was very tied to your personal brand, it'd probably be a different equation, right? Because everyone's, you know, following you.
I think it's really cool that you were able to find a lot of these different supplement products at a very good time. And now you've obviously started your new brand, which is Top Shelf Grind. It's really blown up on TikTok Shop. Before we get into the opportunity on TikTok Shop, I'd love to talk about your product selection process. For any of our viewers who are kind of thinking, I really want to start something, but I don't know where to go, you know, how do you look at winning products and find them?
My take is different than most people, just straight up. I think with the internet, you have a really cool opportunity to be able to operate in most fields, in most areas because it really is just a game of traffic and conversion. And like that being said, if you can drive enough traffic to something, even if it's like not a good idea or terrible, but if you for whatever reason can drive infinite traffic, you can popularize an idea.
It's no different than World War II with like all the propaganda. Like if you're the government and you keep saying the same message, it is true. And that actually happens with products. Like I said this at the conference yesterday, a brand like... I don't like to say their name, but apple cider vinegar gummies, like they don't make you lose weight. Scientifically, they don't make you lose weight. But if you go to Instagram and the top influencers are saying that, and you go to Google and the top influencers are saying that, or a review site saying that, and you go to... or something, I mean, at that point, the science is irrelevant nearly.
Exactly! Because the person influencing you is the person you trust more than the science. It is the truth. And they ran that up to a billion-dollar brand before it fell apart at the billion-dollar level because of that inconsistency. That's right! But it just shows how... it shows reality is my point with that.
So, when coming back to choosing winning products, I really... what I did with Genius was something I think everyone should look at doing. You pursue things you're interested in. Like Genius Joy, like that was an issue to me that mattered. And so when you're operating from that place, you get to kind of... I call it live for a living. Like you get to live your brand. You get to be, you know, everything. It doesn't feel like work, right?
And so I think we get that opportunity with the internet, and I think that's where people should focus. Obviously, you can get granular. You can validate things with data and trends and all that, but it's really about finding a way to [ __ ] sell the thing. Yeah, not necessarily pick the right thing.
And at that point too, like because it's a product for you, you're so more into the research and like making sure that you're having the right ingredients for that supplement.
Definitely! Definitely! You're in it, right? You're 100%. I like the idea of living for a living. I think George Heaton from like represents the perfect example. That's one of the few people on social I'm just like, man, he is... and you've seen what it's done for his brand. I mean, they were big, they were successful, but George says, you know what? I'm going to get on social and embody 24/7. I'm going to embody represent.
Yeah, yeah! And like BR, I mean, cult following. I'm part of it. They drop, and I buy all of it. Time!
Yeah, yeah! [ __ ] George! Without a doubt! So, I totally agree with you. I think maybe boiling it down to either like whether it's unit economics or a level of demand that you kind of search for, like are there any key metrics that you're looking for in a winning product though?
Unit economics for sure! If the... that's why my last business failed. I wasn't super interested in the categories either. Food, yeah, and just very low margin. I mean, I think you need to have... it can be different in every category, but like, you know, the likelihood of shipping weights or even shipping energy drinks. You know, I did a video the other day on Chris Williamson. He's here in Austin, right?
Yeah, he is! And I just think what they did with their energy drink is one of the stupidest things you can do if you're not... like is it the neurotonic or something like that? It's a great product. It's a good name. Branding is on point.
Yeah, but shipping drinks over the internet is like impossible. It's crazy unless you have 10... like literally, I mean, like millions and millions of dollars backstopping that.
So, I think... you think that's your way into retail though? Is like you have to show the demand before you could get into retail and solve that problem?
Not really. Like the Prime guys are a great example. They basically... Congo Brands built Alani Nutrition. Yeah, and they started Alani with supplements, created this big bankroll of cash with supplements, launched into energy drinks, took over the world with energy drinks. Now they have this holding company. They're like, hey, we could do this again. Hydration is big. Logan Paul, KSI, what's up? We have these relationships, and then they roll into every single door.
Yeah, and so there's a lot of ways to do it, but I think purely starting like internet... there's just no point.
How would you shift Chris Williamson's strategy?
I would immediately turn that into a stick pack. Yeah, immediately! Same formula, same product. Let's build some cash flow, and then let's go to retail. Let's get the right people in for retail.
Yeah, and that shows that sell-through rate that any distributor... retailers know. Like retailers will just... because of Chris and who's his partner? Jan?
James or something. Another B... I don't know who the partner is. It's another big influencer. I wasn't familiar with him either, but he has a good following.
Yeah, and so those guys alone are enough to get you in retail. Like they would have been better off not launching online and just doing a... like, hey, we are just going to partner with Whole Foods.
Yeah, but Chris and James, yeah! So, Whole Foods loves that. You're G to get people in the door, right? And then that shows, you know, show pull-through there. And then, but even then, then you're going to raise money to go to the next retailer because you're having to frontload, you know, orders for sure.
The beverage category, I know the CEO and founder of Lemon Perfect, Yanni, and I'll never forget, I was like, dude, you guys are perfect for DTC. He's like, stop! Stop it right now! That is a death sentence for any beverage because you cannot win at any sort of cost for acquisition because your margin is all taken up by shipping.
Yep, every time!
Yeah, super! Look at Liquid Death. It's one of my favorite brands, right? And they're either going to be one of the best stories of this decade or the biggest failure or... or... or... I mean, they've raised so much money, and that's how beverage typically goes unless you're like Congo.
Yeah, I mean, I think they're well positioned for this kind of like, you know, reduced alcohol intake that seems to be a very strong trend over the next 10 years. I think they're going to run it up. I think they'll be a multi-billion dollar staple for years to come.
Yeah, for sure! Be IPO!
But yeah, the thing we touched on briefly is you were very early on Amazon, and now you are very early on TikTok Shop with your new brand, Top Shelf Grind. Talk a little bit about what you see the opportunity for TikTok Shop and like maybe some ways that our audience could take advantage of it.
Totally! So, that goes back to my point on you need to be able to sell the [ __ ] thing. Yeah, and so I think entrepreneurs all the time are looking to like optimize all these different levers and like, you know, oh, I got to do meta while doing influencers while getting my website right. And the reality is businesses are often built because you have like one scalable edge.
So, like literally all my time goes to finding those types of opportunities where you can spend a dollar and make five because that's what it was on Amazon. I didn't appreciate it when I was the kid, but it's like, okay, I launched this product, and I'm immediately cash flow positive. And I'm like, that wasn't normal.
Yeah, and so then you realize like, okay, those advantages eventually go away, right? But now with TikTok Shop, we're seeing what I think is the next Amazon, more or less.
Yeah, I mean, it's very early. I think they're projected to do like $10 billion in sales this year. Amazon still does hundreds of billions, but it's just like wide open, completely wide open. And it's a different game, obviously, but it's just one of those windows where I know TikTok's going all in on it. Obviously, there's some potential issues with government. I think that'll largely be noise.
Yeah, but they're positioned in a way too. It's like, hey, the rest of the world shops like that. The rest of the world does video, right? I don't think... I don't want to get too sidetracked here, but I don't think most people realize the shifting uncertainty in the world right now with short form and discovery as a whole.
So, like when we go to... when we went to Tokyo last year, me and my wife, she doesn't go on Google anymore. Yeah, she doesn't Google restaurants. She goes and actually sees what people are eating and what the vloggers are saying on Instagram and TikTok.
On TikTok primarily?
TikTok, yeah! And that is, you know, that new influencers are being found that way. Like new... every piece of society right now is being reshuffled, including brands. Yeah, and so the brands that commit to that and figure that out... like, and it's hard because like all of a sudden your website doesn't matter. Your Instagram aesthetics matter less and less. It's like, how are you optimizing and trying to build an eight or nine-figure thing in this 60-second discovery window?
Yeah, and so we're seeing these different strategies come together of that like very early stages. But like, you know, mine, right? It's like tape models. You're running all these accounts and just trying to maximize.
Yeah, and so I think it's like so exciting because it's one of those actual windows where you can be early.
Yeah, you can be early! I mean, yeah!
Yeah, yeah! That's the biggest thing to your point about discovery. It's something that since I moved to Austin, I've noticed like a tremendous amount is all discovery happens through this core group of 8 to 10 local influencer accounts, which will be like 52 Bytes or Explore ATX. They are... or When What Where Austin. They're these centralized hubs of information where if you're a new player in the hospitality space, you have to advertise with them. You do not have a choice. It is table stakes or else people won't know where you're at.
Yeah, and it's crazy how that has almost replaced word of mouth.
That's the start of word of mouth! You know, you have to have a real do really well, and that real, you know, depending on what dish is served to the influencer, like matters a lot. And then you zoom out, and it's like, will it get more like that or less like that?
And yeah, easily more because all the people that are kind of having that behavior right now are just going to continue to be the people with purchasing power. And that's my thing. I don't have the exact answers, but it feels like we're in the very early innings of a changing world.
Yeah, and it would be wise to pour into that, figure that out. Like at that conference yesterday, people were coming up to me like, well, what about my website and this? I was like, I don't care!
Yeah, like I really... I don't! Like, is it making you money?
Yeah, no? Is it this? No? I mean, I'm extremely familiar with your brand. I know your business partners, and I don't think I've ever gone to the Top Shelf Grind website.
It sucks! It sucks! I've never looked at it one time!
So, what is you guys' TikTok Shop strategy? How are you scaling to do these million-dollar months?
I mean, as you know, ads are great still. Yeah, ads are like for once in a... I mean, like meta, you were doing meta, right?
Oh, yeah! It's hard to make money on there for sure!
It's not possible, but it's like it was certainly a lot easier a long time ago.
It was a lot easier a long time ago. Same with Amazon, right? And so the ad component alone is like super exciting. Our broader strategy is a couple of things, but the main one is like Jimmy's whole creator thing. For people who don't know my business partner, Jimmy Farley, Jim Poppy on IG. Best IG name!
But basically, he changed his IG name and started acting different. It's working! I know it's working! It's a good... we're being our own influencers with that brand because I think influencers are dying.
Yeah, George is like painting the new model of that, I think.
Yeah, so creator-led brand versus, you know, stale influencer.
Yeah, yeah, yeah!
And so on that note, Jimmy trains talent creators who learn how to make brand-specific content, just algorithm-disrupting videos. Yeah, and they operate their own account geared towards our products, right? And we run those at scale. We have 60, 70 creators putting out a video a day at least.
Most of them go nowhere.
Yeah! And then one all of a sudden gets five million views.
What do you think, if you had a guess, what is the hit rate of the video that those creators put out?
I bet you it's probably one out of every 40. I mean, it's a volume game through and through.
And then what does that conversion rate look like on a viral video? Like how much would a million-view video actually create in revenue?
That can be all over the place. It depends on the type of video because sometimes you'll have like, you know, you'll have one get five million views, but it was so loose or like not geared towards the product. You sell 20 units. You're like, oh, that's kind of disappointing.
And then you have one that gets 300,000 views, but it's like hyper towards it, and you sell... you know, it's crazy the disparity between some videos that convert and some that just get attention.
100%! It actually becomes very hard to figure out what the [ __ ] is going on with all this. I mean, seriously, because it's so all over the place, and you don't get direct attribution either.
Yeah, yeah! The view-through window on TikTok is crazy. It's probably a little too in-depth for us.
So, you've obviously built some really awesome businesses on your own as an entrepreneur. Like, what route would you advise someone who's just starting out to get to $10,000 a month in income on their own?
If you are under 25, becoming a freelance content creator is 100% the way. Yeah, you see these methods all the time: make $10,000, this, that. I think most of them don't work, like period, or they grind. This is the one where I'm seeing very young kids making [ __ ]! I make zero off this too. This is all Jimmy, my partner's thing.
Yeah, with Creator's Corner, where you come in, he teaches you how to make these product videos, and then brands like me, like I am writing checks to some of these kids that are like mind-blowing to me.
Yeah, but I'm making money off it. I paid a kid $120,000 last month.
Yeah, 120,000! That's insane!
He was a waiter 50 days ago!
It puts into practice, you know, when we... when everyone's growing up, you always have your funny friend, you know, the one who's just like out-of-pocket funny. And a lot of the times, I think in previous generations, maybe that kid ends up just working a dead-end job, but now he's got this outlet, which is just go monetize your creativity. And it's crazy what it's created for them.
That's like the perfect outlet for them to be able to communicate at scale.
Yeah, for sure! And it's interesting how TikTok rewards that, right? When you really look at videos, you know, Sean Puri, who hosts the My First Million podcast, he has an amazing framework for creating a hook. It has to elicit an OMG, a WTF, or an LOL. If it doesn't elicit any of those emotions, then it's not worth your time. Bonus points if you have two because if you get an OMG and an LOL, it's like, you know, that video's got a very strong chance of keeping someone for a long time.
100%! Yeah!
Yeah, Sean is like... side note, Sean is one of the best thinkers in this social space. I've been with him the last two nights, and he's... when he... like, he's so into this game and thoughtful with it, some really good stuff comes out.
Yeah, he's super, super introspective like that.
You've built a lot of physical product businesses, but you've also built a large following on social. Do you have a framework for how you create your content?
Yeah, so I break it up into five pillars around my personal brand, and the idea is to give people like unique segments of value, connect with you on an individual level, and obviously do something for them, right?
So, my first one that I love to talk about, and again, this is just like authentically me, but brand is number one. Like branding, aesthetics, general vibe, like that is one thing you will always find prevalent in my content in some capacity, even though the videos are shot right. It's always going to be aesthetically good.
I've noticed that you have a very distinct style now.
Yeah, I want to agree! I've noticed that! Like there is a branding aesthetic to your content, even if it's like... I don't want to say it's not talking head content, but it is looking at the camera, but there's...
Yeah, there's like a... no, it helps you. It's... I love to think of it in pattern interruption. Yeah, it's not this like I'm doing this right here. Like when I'm doing my content, the camera's right there. I'm talking. Yours is like you could be doing something, you look, you stop. Like there's... what you're saying, there's a lot of pattern interruption.
It's like visual hooks.
The visual hook! Yeah, exactly! Number two is e-commerce tactics. So, like I will be the first... I will never shill out on something. Like if I tell you a year ago I wasn't talking TikTok because we didn't know, and now I want to be the first person telling you like, hey, I mean, if you're a kid under 25, right? Creator's Corner. If you're over 25, be the one building the brand, creating enterprise value, right? Like those are probably the two windows.
So, e-commerce tactics, I've really leaned into this whole thing called life maxing. Have you guys heard me yell about that?
I've been seeing that! I mean, that's kind of becoming the center of my brand because I look around, there's a lot of people with money that I would never dream of trading my life with.
Yeah! And so I think I want to reframe perspective for younger people in general that like, why are you doing what you're doing?
Yeah! Like why are you? Yeah, take a step back and think about it for a second, and then focus on maximizing every component of life. Like max out your stats, life experiences, like different skills, right? Like training is number one to me. Like how am I going to go to the gym? Am I going to find a Muay Thai coach? Work backwards, right?
So, that's the next pillar. Hybrid fitness kind of falls into that. Like I... that's a big part of what I do. I love fighting. I love different training. I think it's important. Your wall there, Kobe, Muhammad Ali.
Yeah, you love to see it!
And then I'm loosely leaning into fashion as a whole, yeah, just because I find that to be one of the avenues for individualism, which is really important. I think we're in a society where everyone's kind of being forced to, you know, conform.
Conform!
And so how you represent yourself from a... it's one of those avenues you get the opportunity to represent you as you, and I love that.
Yeah, absolutely! Do you see those pillars as like top of funnel, middle funnel, bottom of funnel? You're just like, hey, I'm trying to execute one of these a week. How are you... how are you at this point?
I'm very, very top of the funnel only. I know like guys like Orin, they narrow it down further, which is great. I do a little more like... my deeper connections come from this type of thing where you can hear me articulate a little more, talk longer form, and people get kind of blown away sometimes. They see my short form, and then I get up on stage yesterday, and they're like, oh, you like are a real person. You didn't just like spawn on Instagram with like a loud mouth and a diamond tooth, you know?
And so that's kind of how I think about it. Different avenues to communicate.
Yeah, that's hilarious! That was another thing I wanted to dig into. So, you said you have kind of five pillars. When are you planning out your content in advance? And are you saying, okay, I'm going to write, I'm going to film on this day, I'm going to film on this day? Are you batching content? Like talk about your actual production, and how big is your team? Like do you have a small content team around you?
Yeah, small content team. I have a full-time video guy who's like my brother at this point. He comes a lot of places with me. We got a couple editors overseas that have been with me for a while, and that's really the whole content team.
W, I'm trying to turn my personal brand or the social media business, so not the selling products, but like me, the mentorship, anything that comes with social. I'm trying to turn that into such an actual business so it can scale.
Yeah! Like I don't want to do nothing other than show up and shoot.
Yeah, really! And we're not there yet. Like I don't have a script because I still... it needs to be authentic. It needs to be me.
Yeah! But so like finding like a scriptwriter or a person that sources ideas because how a lot of these big accounts are... people don't know that like a Cody Sanchez, you know, like she... there are people sourcing ideas for her that, hey, this worked, you should do your take on that, and she shows up and films.
Yeah! And then all the pieces fall. Like she doesn't post herself, you know? Like people are uploading those videos, and the machine's going.
Yeah! And so I'm focused on taking that step, and it's just like any other business. You have to treat it like a real business.
Yeah! So what is your process right now? Like, so say next week you got seven pieces of content that are dropping. When do you film it? How is it getting edited? Stuff like that. Are you the idea generator as well?
I'm largely the idea generator still. Yeah, and so it'll largely come based on my ideas. Like I said, my video guy is full-time. We will have weeks where like last week we shot probably 12 videos because I was just rolling, right?
And then we'll have... and then he like... I won't see him for like 10 days. He's like, hey, you good? I'm like, yeah, make sure you edit those photos or whatever, you know?
Yeah, yeah! And that's kind of how it goes largely right now. And that's also because I'm running the brands. That's what so few people understand and why I think there's actual valuable stuff in my content. I don't have just a social media business. Like I'm actually operating, you know, Top Shelf, but we have a couple others. We have the fund, and that's like, you know, if something's going wrong there, I'm usually pulling into that, and that ruins the creativity of like idea sourcing and stuff like that.
So, right now, I'd say what we try to do is shoot once or twice a week, just in general. We try to shoot once or twice a week, and we try to get most of the quality reels out for the next week.
If you aren't scripting, are you just going off the cuff because you know the central idea, and then they're chopping it up?
Yeah, sometimes I've done all... like a year ago, I was only scripting. Prior to that, I was only going off the dumb. And now I'm kind of somewhere in between. I'll do like bullets, you know, where it's like, okay, here's my hook. But you look at like my raw... you see the finished reel. If you see the raw one, there's like 15 mess-ups in there.
Yeah! Because I even try to get like... I'm even focused on things like delivery. Like how am I saying what I'm saying?
For sure! Like that's equally as important. Sometimes I... those are some of the things that like people overlook that you do, like delivery, pacing, the visual hook, the aesthetic.
If you're trying to win on social, one of the biggest changes for me was accepting that it is a game. And that's not to say like be fake or be this or that. No, but it's a game. Like how you present that information and how you communicate it is important. It's an algorithm, and if you don't cater your message to that algorithm, you won't be seen, period.
Yeah! People, oh, I'm shadowbanned, this, that. It's like, no, your content sucks!
Yeah, yeah! For sure! Or talks about... it's like algo market fit. Like you got to be able to put content out there that the algo likes and wants to show to other people. If you don't have algo market fit, it's what you're saying. Your content just sucks. You just got to be better at scripting, delivering, pacing, packaging it up, and making good content.
Yeah, it's almost like that's the first principle. It's like make sure that you're going after something the algorithm's going to prioritize.
So, you seem... you're pretty deep in the weeds on the internet. Like what are some of your fun... like where... what are some rabbit holes or I guess sources of rabbit hole places or inspiration for a lot of your content ideas that you go to?
Because I really try to be original and draw from real life. Yeah, and I think I actually leave a lot on the table because of that. Like I think I'd be better off because I am like a little internet autist at heart. Like I live on some of these, you know, different mediums for sure.
But I try to bring original ideas forward more times than not.
So, gun to your head, which business would you drop first? Your community or your brands?
I would drop community.
And really?
Yeah! And so you would stick with the brands.
There's people that want me... partners on my side that want me to do nothing but the brands at this point.
Yeah! Because, I mean, you look at it like you look at even the biggest info businesses, and like me, we've talked about some of them off-camera, but I mean, you do have people making, you know, $12, $5 million net, right? Which is good money, but it's still ordinary income, and it'll probably go on for a couple of years, and those are the best of the best.
So, say like I nail this completely, you know, you're maybe looking at like a $40 or $50 million opportunity, and then post-tax, like $20 or $30.
Yeah! Whereas a brand, like really, you know, we're aiming for nine figures or a billion-dollar valuation. And so for me, and even for me personally, for my life to change, it is with another zero, and that would be it. It would come from the brands.
That makes a lot of sense! But they're all merging. So even like on that, like maybe my content should look more like George Heaton, represent, and less, you know, make money online guy.
That's an interesting point because I actually remember you did make a video about the pheromone cologne, right? And you were like, I can't keep all these girls off or something.
Yeah! Did y'all end up running that at all on TikTok as a shop ad or anything?
No, we probably should actually. It's not really coherent between both of them, and what I do with my personal brand, I don't know if this is good or bad. I actually curious to hear you guys. I'd love to hear your take. I get caught in between like I'm half doing George-like things because that really is my life, but then I'll come back and talk info and e-commerce tactics and be like, hey, you should join my community.
Yeah! And they kind of feed because it's like you should join my community because my brand's right here, and it's like for real.
So, you know, I'm doing it, but how would you think about that from like a content?
I like the idea of creating content for new followers than creating content for current followers.
Okay!
Creating content for new followers is the e-commerce tactics. Get them in your ecosystem, then make them love you, become fans of you with content that is for them, more George Heaton-like, more represent.
Like that is you doing Muay Thai training, you just doing your life and being you, and that's for the people that want the deeper connection.
But that top of funnel is get followers and then essentially turn those followers into fans.
I'd say you have a nice flywheel right now though where they feed each other because your lifestyle is such that it's paid for by the brands.
Yeah! And so as a result, people should... you're kind of giving game to like the younger generation, and it's because of the social proof of the brands.
So, but I mean, to point you answered the question, come to your head, which one would you choose? And so it's like the info product side of even monetizing into a community. If you just leaned all the way into life maxing and you're like, look, this is the type of [ __ ] you're on. If you get on Top Shelf Grind, and that was just like all you talked about, like that became synonymous with those two things, I do think that could potentially have a better impact on the brand rather than trying to build a community.
Just because, you know, you can only do so much, right? Like if you have seven pieces of content in a week, and people get confused and they get lost.
Yeah, exactly! And I think candidly if I remove myself from the industry because, you know, I see your lower funnel content, and I'm like, oh, that was interesting. He just gave his playbook on TikTok Shop. That gets me for sure!
But the stuff that would catch my eye is definitely the outlandish life maxing. Like I just took a PJ, and it was... or you did a... what was your recent one? The expensive Uber?
That was hilarious!
Yeah! You're like, I took a really expensive Uber, and it was a [ __ ] private jet!
I also think it's like you could reinvent yourself, right? Once you get to a certain level, like you get to past a million followers, it's like I can now go the George Heaton route.
But the e-commerce and like the tactical side is your bridge to that.
Yeah! That's what Sean Puri was kind of saying to me.
What was his take?
Just that he's like, you're going to... the make money online content is going to get you punched down. It's going to get you stuck in like a box you don't necessarily want to be stuck in.
Yeah! And so, I mean, he's a pretty big advocate of reinventing myself, and I'm leaning more into that. Like I'm going to start doing more stuff about just generally what I like, like brands and culture and all of that.
Like it was a... yeah, he's a smart guy. We had a good talk.
Yeah! So if you... you mentioned you want to do everything top of funnel anyway. It's like if the goal is then to grow your audience by an order of magnitude up to like 2 million followers, then you're going to have to continue to get more outlandish, more outlandish, more... that stuff. It's not going to come from any of the tactics.
And which is cool! I find at the end of the day, net-net, it's like just the... right now for me, growth is good. Like I'm activating a couple of levers.
Like what are your KPIs? What kind of sales do you have to be hitting?
Guys, I don't really care! I'm starting to feel pretty confident that if I get them into my ecosystem, and they see like what I'm about in my message, it tends to net out good for me, for sure!
Do you think you have a really strong following? One of the things that when Lucas Paor was on our show, what he was talking about was like, yes, I only have 45 on IG because he has a ton on TikTok. He's got like 450, but his content on Instagram gets such good engagement. Like every video gets really strong, like follow... he has... it's high! It's really, really high!
And it's because everyone that follows him is like looking forward to his videos. Do you feel like you have that on IG versus TikTok at all?
Yeah, my TikTok is like dead. I'm trying to reactivate that. My IG is coming. Like I had to kind of reinvent everything, and there was like a lull there where... but I see it slowly happening.
One of the things I run into too is like I am older, and my... like the people that probably love me, love me, are not the kids that are native commenting every day, if that makes sense.
Yeah!
So, I'm pretty happy with where the audience is getting. Like the people that [ __ ] with me, like [ __ ] with me for sure! It's not cutesy yet!
Like, you know, even like the looks maxing kids, like, you know, Dylan L, them.
Yeah! Like, you know, he posts, and he gets 20% likes every time and a million comments, but it's like 15-year-old kids that aren't able to monetize it at all, right?
Yeah! Like I'm good off that, right? So, I'm pretty happy with where mine is at with loyalty relative to demographic.
Yeah! Do you have a plan to like kind of try to create that cult-like following? Because again, I think George and Represent, they have a run club, right? They could go... and that's like their way of building out this community. But with you, life maxing, you're obviously not... you're probably not going to do a run club.
Is like, do you think about how am I going to bring these people in-house to actually interact with each other and build something out?
No, that's a really good question. I think first you have to like conceptually define it, like, you know, broader terms. Like what... who definitely are you not and who are you?
And then I think you do need some materialization, whether it be in the real world, whether it be an online group. Like you see guys like Luke Belmar, you know, like massive Telegram.
Yeah! When you can micro-interact and make people feel like they're part of something, that's where you get it. But before I make that move, I want to be really strategic on it being the right move.
And it can be a paid-for thing, like Jimmy's thing, right? These, you know, it's only a couple hundred members, but they're making so much money, and they're so happy with him. And like all of that, he has a... I'm watching him create a mini cult, a paid-for mini cult.
Like they pay him, yeah! But then one kid is putting Top Shelf on his life license plate. That's insane! I swear he got a new BMW, and he's putting Top Shelf on his license plate.
Yeah, that's crazy! That's awesome!
Well, dude, Rob, I mean, that was super fun! Really enjoyed having you on the pod. For anyone that, you know, is going to try and follow you on socials, can you just like shout them out? Tell them where to plug.
Rob the Bank on IG. That's where I'm focused right now. Robert Oliver on anything else. But yeah, no, this has been great, guys. We'll do another one again soon!
Such a good username, by the way!
Yeah, me, Orin, and Colin were on a call because we run this cut, like short-form boot camp, and it was in our group chat. It was like, dude, check out Rob's [ __ ] username! This is 10 out of 10 work! And we were just like talking about it the whole time. We're like, we all need to shift our [ __ ]!
We all need to shift it! 10 out of 10! Have fun with it!
Yeah! Well, thank you, guys! Seriously, it means a lot! Eno, this! I appreciate it, man!