Transcription
The landing pages you're sending traffic to are the most important parts of your funnel. But so often, I see brands focus on just the ads and not this layer down where the conversion actually happens.
As an example, for a company we recently worked with for ghostride ads, they were bidding on all of these keywords that had completely different search intents. But they were sending them to the same landing page that was completely unrelated to the keywords they were bidding on.
So we did a small change where we took the same keywords, put them into separate ad groups, and had them go to landing pages that were related to the keyword search intent. What this did was, overnight, increase their conversion rate.
To take a step back, what you say on your landing page is so important. Often, I see startups as the biggest culprits of saying very abstract things that mean nothing, like "we're revolutionizing finance," but they're a payroll company. The landing page doesn't even talk to the pain points.
On this episode, that is what we're going to be talking about. We're actually going to be dissecting all these different startups' homepages and landing pages from Y Combinator and roasting their messaging to be more effective at conveying what's actually happening.
To do this, I'm having my friend Jordan Mix on. Jordan is one of the partners at Late Checkout, which is a design agency. We're going to be talking about the principles of how to communicate well with copywriting, what landing page structure should look like, and then we're actually going to go in and roast companies page by page.
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Man, how you doing, big dog?
Let's go!
What's up? You know where we're at right now?
Where are you?
We're in the pit, baby!
Yeah, we are!
We're in the pit, baby! I love it!
I love it, dude! This conversation, I'm like, I feel like copywriting is one of the most overlooked things in growth marketing. It's something that people throw hundreds of thousands of dollars of ad spend at, stuff that is just terrible and doesn't say anything.
So I basically, you're going to get a master class today on how to actually talk about the thing that you're building and how to write well and write really concisely. But I don't know where you want to start. I was thinking about jumping in maybe at like, we just go and talk about what I see as common mistakes that founders make, especially in early stage. Where do you think you want to head?
Yeah, I mean, that sounds great. I think maybe given some context on how this combo started, I tweeted last week about a beautiful site that caught me. I got trapped by the beauty of it. I was pressing enter to delay animations, and Cod comes out of the woodwork in the replies.
I might just want to pull it up.
Let's do it!
Let's pull it up here. I'll bring it up right now. Hold on.
Bring it up!
'Cause the reply, like, I had to step away from the desk and just read the reply, you know?
Dude, I hope it didn't feel like I was coming at you about it. I was more just like...
No, I loved it!
Totally!
Yeah, so it's this site, it's called Mainframe. It's beautiful!
Gorgeous, right?
Like, it's unbelievable!
Unbelievable! Totally!
And like, I see this, and I'm, you know, the designer side of me that loves the art and creating this experience is all about it. And then the growth marketer in me immediately is like, "Oh my God, I can just feel the bounce rate on this."
So what I said was, "Me physically cringing thinking about the bounce rate for the funnel that's supposed to generate leads so the company can raise its next round."
And then the designer, having more social equity internally than me, is...
So my gross suggestions get iced, Fox me resting, investing, knowing that in 90 days they'll change to what I suggested.
So anyway, I mean, I think that gives a lot of context to the whole thing. But that is art right there!
Like, I read that, and I was like, "That is just... you're a poet, man!"
I appreciate it, man! I know I always have written your tweets down, and I formatted one of them in my own style, the "met the founder" message.
Oh, nice!
Yeah, you know, met the founder, same founder.
Unbelievable!
We can put that on screen too, but yeah, I just think there's just... we're in a time where with infinite options in an AI world, you think you need to do more with your insecurities, right?
It's like your insecurities just create more, more, more, do more, more, more word salad, more beautiful design. But it's just like that tether between... like, I got trapped by that beautiful design, and then you brought it back down to earth of like, "But the bounce rate though!"
Like, you're living in a fantasy.
It serves different purposes though, right?
That was like, "Oh hey, we're a design studio, and we're trying to show how beautiful of things we can create because that's why you're going to hire us."
That serves its purpose.
But, you know, where I went was like, "Okay, cool, looks like they raised money. I don't know what they do."
Like, I literally, like, I'm like, "I have no idea what they do," number one, off of like the copy that's on the website.
And then number two, it's like if I'm going to try to get people to sign up for this thing, which is typically like why venture-backed companies exist, right?
And like, you know, we try to get them to grow really quickly. This is... there's no way that this is going... I could ever make that work from like a funnel optimization standpoint.
And so I think it's just like, you know, it's two sides of a spectrum. You're just trying to find that cross-section because like good design works, right?
Like we know that the better design this thing is, the more trust that it has, the more, you know, just like basically you can get people to be further down that buying funnel, like from a purchasing decision by having good design versus worse design.
Now, there's a couple caveats with that, with like sometimes really ugly ads work because they stand out within an industry.
And like sometimes, like, you know, being, you know, looking like one out of a hundred, if you line them up, you know, if you have all black squares and one is red, you're going to only look at the red one, right?
So that can be a strategy.
But anyway, yeah, yeah, and that is design too, right?
Like for the audience, like be free in your design.
It's like, yeah, like that one ad that goes viral all the time is like, "Our designer quit," you know, like in paint.
It's like, in a way, that is design, and like it doesn't need to be pixel-perfect design.
So like back to the original, like in an AI world and like where everyone can make stuff very quick, like be free.
You can do way less. You can write way less words. You can write... you can ship way less designs.
Like you can ship a way shorter website, and you're actually going to do way more.
So I think like just like breaking that down would be like good for the audience to like come back down to earth.
I think that's great.
And like a small tactical thing to piggyback off of that, like one of my go-tos now with using these LMs is like give them word count limits on everything that they write.
Like everything that they're allowed to touch, here's this limit basically that they have to hit or like that they have to stay under.
And what this does is it creates like... what's also really effective and really powerful is be like, "Write me a version of this in five words, ten words, fifteen words."
And then, and we'll talk about this more, but like, I mean, maybe actually this is where we go is like this idea of what good copywriting is.
Because I think for a lot of people, they don't like... they hear that and they're like, "Oh, this makes me feel..."
And it's like, "No, that's actually not what good copywriting is."
Like to me, and I'm curious to like hear about how you guys think about it, like Late Checkout and all the companies that you guys run, like how we think about it is like I'm trying to say a specific idea with as few words as possible.
And like that's my filter.
Like if I... but sometimes if I shorten the words, like, you know, say I go down to five, it won't convey the idea exactly how I'm having... need the idea to get conveyed.
And so like your job as a copywriter is basically like what is the idea that's novel, and then what are the fewest amount of words that I can basically say convey that idea in?
And that's how like I think about it, and I always push our team to think about it whenever we're doing writing.
But I'm curious how you guys think about it.
Yeah, we've been thinking about it a ton, and it goes through iterations.
You know, we try to hold ourselves to tweet-sized landing pages, so it's 280 characters, one call to action, one image, one button.
And like we do 280 characters. Sometimes we go over that, but like that's like the constraints that we try to have, and we try to do that on every different page.
So if a site needs two pages, we'll do, you know, multiple things.
And like some of the agencies that we have do need more, but we try to do sections based on this tweet-sized landing page.
So you see this boring, boring ad right here?
It's like we are obsessed over this to be very specific.
Like we don't want to work with every brand running ads.
We want to work with growth-obsessed brands, and like we want to call people out right there.
Like stop gambling. A lot of people with ads say they feel like they're throwing money away, and they're gambling.
So it's like stop gambling, get boring, get consistent.
That feeling, like we try to evoke those feelings in it.
And like really, I think Harry went on how I write with David Perell. Such a good video.
We'll link it below for everybody who needs just a crash course on how to write well.
Watch it once, twice, three times.
You're spending holidays with your family, like watch it.
It is so dang good, and he has these three things that have just stuck in my head.
It's like, and it's all around this principle of like write copy that can't be copied.
It's like can you visualize it? Is it true?
Like can you say it? And like is it undeniable?
Is it unfalsifiable?
Or like can anyone else say it basically?
So it's like the New Balance ad, for example, like the worn by supermodels in Ohio, in London, and dads in Ohio.
Like it's so visual. No one else can say it.
Like Puma can't say that. Nike can't say that.
And so it puts them in a class of their own.
And so it's those three main principles that we use a lot and keep coming back to like every sentence.
And then it's just like how do you cut words?
Like you're saying, how do you cut words out?
If you don't need a word, then get rid of it.
100%.
And if that word doesn't add to the idea, like if you can still convey the same idea without that word, get rid of that word.
That's like how I think about it and how I try to approach it.
And I get this feedback on like how I write a lot.
They're like, "Oh, it's like you sit..."
Like often it's like, you know, I use like fifth-grade writing language, right, to convey very big, hard ideas.
And like that's intentional.
Like I'm doing that because in my experience, like the more letters that I have in a sentence, the more complicated it gets to convey this thing that's complex.
And also, it shows true mastery as well, right?
Like I think that's this other piece that you can convey.
Like if you can say a very complex thing in like ten words, then use some type of analogy or metaphor or whatever that takes to as a vehicle to accomplish that, it shows an expertise that is going to be impossible for somebody else to copy or convey in the same way.
And here's that New Balance ad just to lay it down.
And I mean, just to break this down, right?
It's like, okay, so what's something that's like only they can claim?
The London and Ohio, right?
What's something... what are all the pieces again, Jordan?
The visual, can you visualize it?
So that's like the supermodels and the dads.
Like you see the dad at the grill, you see the supermodel posted up next to Big Ben, like immediately.
They could have said like worn by pretty girls, but that's two words versus like everyone knows the supermodels.
Or like worn by middle-aged men, like not as good.
I want you to... a great breakdown to this though is that supermodel versus pretty girls thing.
Like you can visualize a supermodel way easier than you can visualize a pretty girl, right?
It's like a broader idea in the mind.
And so that more specific idea in the mind, within your mind's eye, is going to have more of a visual impact, like more of that concrete idea.
So yeah, it's like if Tesla was going at it, it was like, "Hey, we go 0 to 60 faster," versus "We go 0 to 60 in 3.2 seconds," or "Faster than you can take a sip of that latte," you know?
Or like, you know, "0 to 60 faster than F1," right?
Yeah, like something like that, right?
That conveys it, compares it to a thing that in their mind has an idea.
And a lot of copywriting, I think, comes down to anchoring it to something that already is in their mind, right?
Like people only dedicate so much space to everything in their mind.
Like you only have so much space for like chapstick, right?
Like you got two brands that you have in your mind for chapstick, right?
Everybody does.
And so when a brand comes in and they're trying to basically like attach onto that or take over that space in your mind, that's what you're fighting for.
That's the game that you're having to play.
You're having to win on.
So real quick, like, and I think like for the audience, like why does this matter?
Like I'm not a copywriter.
I mean, you're talking to like two growth guys right now that also aren't copywriters, but like do you write?
Do you send emails?
Do you send tweets?
Do you like... everybody is a copywriter.
Do you speak to people?
Do you sell people?
This should flow over into every part of your life.
It's everything.
And it's like, I hate to use like the first principles thing, but like I wish I would have started studying this stuff like way... like I mean like ten years ago.
Like I used to be like the hand-wavy guy of like, "Oh yeah, yeah, we'll just sling it up there, you know, like it'll be fine."
But it really like matters, especially in this world where TikTok wants you to have a hook in 1.7 seconds.
Like good luck out there!
I mean, a landing page, you might get seven seconds.
You might!
Yeah, I mean, I think our average is like 2.5 off of like paid traffic, right?
Like I have under three seconds to convey what we do, to convince you of an idea, and to get you to do the action to do the click that I'm wanting you to get, right?
And so like this is why this is so critical.
Also, we see a direct relationship between this and like when we spend money driving traffic to these pages, right?
A classic mistake I see startups make is they go and they set up a homepage landing page that has some like large idea like "We're revolutionizing like accounting."
Like, okay, cool, I have no clue what that means.
What does that mean?
And like it is a classic, right?
They raise a $5 million Series A, they like are like, "We're going to, you know, change the world with this accounting software."
But in reality, what they actually are doing is like, "Hey, this bookkeeper that costs you $1,500 a month, we automate that away for $100."
Right?
That is really what's going on.
But I think that so often, it's like they just get sucked into this portal.
And so anyway, to get back to this, like very... I want to touch on this one specific thing that's like a great way to illustrate this.
So Google Ads, right?
I see this so often, and I've seen like so much ad spend wasted by people bidding on Google Ads, like keywords that are high value to them, but they send them to a generic landing page.
And it's like there's no... like for example, I send them to like "Revolutionizing accounting," right?
But they're bidding on like bookkeeping services, right?
Like the drop-off you're going to see from that is going to be massive.
And like I've done with so many companies where it's like all we did is we're like, "Cool, like these keywords have converted for you previously. Let's just build a landing page that talks directly to those keywords that we're bidding on."
So that there's an alignment between, "Hey, they searched this keyword, the keyword's in the ad, and the keyword's on the landing page that they just landed on."
Right?
Think about that user journey in contrast to they searched this keyword, they saw an ad with the keyword, and they landed on a landing page that's talking about somebody revolutionizing accounting, right?
Your cohesiveness is going to create such a more impactful user journey and a higher sign-up rate, higher activation rate, the whole, you know, the whole thing down the funnel.
So anyway, just wanted to interject, dude, just do less.
Like the same word, if you're finding the demand, you do all the work to find the demand, just go and be like align with the demand every step of the way.
Like the ads that we run, if they look the exact same, the ad copy as the landing page, we get cheaper conversion and we get better intent.
And like we used to not do that because guess what?
We were purists.
We were getting way too cute on this stuff.
It's like we're in it for the art.
We're going to convert.
We have such a good product.
Like it was just for me, me, me, me, me when it's like in the world, it's all for them.
Like you need to be like focusing on them.
It's like for example, if you're running like the book, the bookkeeper to revolutionizing like accounting, that's essentially running an ad against like a bicycle and then taking to the SpaceX landing page.
Like, yeah, it's like we're revolutionizing transportation.
It's like buy this bicycle, right?
And then they land on this thing that is totally unrelated.
It's not talking to the problem that they're facing and that they're searching for.
And there's spaces for both of this.
So because like the pushback I always get is like, "Hey, well, you know, we want to build brand, and we want people to think about it in this way."
That's Google Ads, and Facebook Ads are not how you're going to build brand.
Facebook Ads, you kind of can if you're doing remarketing campaigns with like education content.
We've done this in the past where it's like, "Cool, everybody that touches the site, let's put them into like this funnel basically that gets them into long-form content that convinces them of our ideas, of our beliefs, of our position on, you know, whatever it is in the world."
But like majority of the time, if this is top-of-funnel traffic, like I'm trying to get the person to sign up.
Like I don't care about anything else.
And like I see this in SEO all the time as well where it's like they'll make landing pages like blog posts as an example, and it's like this generic, like it's not even relevant.
It's like a question that's not even related to software, not even related to the product that they're building.
And they're like, "Well, we're not getting signups."
So it's like, "Okay, well, this isn't bottom of funnel."
Like the person isn't even in a mind space to like make a signup decision, right?
Like when they land on this, number one.
Number two, the blog page doesn't even have a call to action to like sign up for this thing.
And like on all of the stuff that we're doing, like we have a popup occur like as a scroll percentage.
So like they hit the 40% scroll percentage on the page, pop up in their face, takes up the whole page, and it's like sign up for this thing, right?
So anyway, just like again, tactical things that we've seen be extremely impactful and like how to think about and like why is this copywriting thing so important and the understanding of what the words mean?
I think that's this other piece.
So, but I'm...
I see you cut you off on a ton of stuff, so I...
Word, this is amazing!
I think like, yeah, I mean, not to get like too esoteric with it, but I think there are these two worlds and like these two... like we talk about this all the time.
It's like there's generalism and then there's purism.
And like the purism is like they let the art and the craft get in the way of the progress.
It's like we raised the $5 million seed, so we should have a beautiful landing page, and like we should build brand versus like where the generalist is in like the craft is feedback and iteration and experimentation and going where the demand lives.
And like really, you should be like maybe toward the generalist path is my recommendation, but like take elements of purism with you to like allow you to have craft and like have it be well thought out and designed.
But I think what you were saying is like more and more there are two sides of the house, and you need like the brand growth side of the house, and you need the funnel growth side of the house.
And those two things should kind of be separate and serve different kings.
Totally!
And I think that they often are like they're two different forms of content.
Like the, you know, short like transactional type of actions that I'm trying to get to happen, it's a lot... most of the time it's short-form content, right?
Like it's a static ad or it's a, you know, here's a 30-second UGC video that I'm running on Facebook ads.
Like in contrast, when I'm doing brand building, I'm looking at like, "Okay, this is a 2,500-word blog post where it like is literally the founder's words conveying their beliefs on what the industry is or like how they view the world."
Or it's a, you know, an hour-long video that's going super, super deep on like the beliefs that the company has.
Those types of things are going to create so much deeper like relationships with people.
And if you're trying to build like this, you know, cult brand, right?
Like that's how you do it.
In my opinion, like a great example of it is Patagonia, right?
They released these... I have some of them.
It's some of the most unbelievable writing that exists on the face of this planet.
But it's literally just like these catalogs, but it's almost a magazine, right?
And it's like, but they don't even talk about the product.
Like the product is just naturally the hero of the journey within the story.
It's like Jim is out, you know, he's fly fishing in southern, you know, in whatever, in Western Montana, and he's like, you know, they're facing super, super cold because it's late April, right?
They're telling the story, but then like naturally, like Patagonia is a part of that story that's being told.
You don't even feel like you're reading about... you're reading a hero's journey that the product is just a part of, right?
And so then people like imagine themselves in that place, like in that mind space where they're like, "Oh, I want to be that."
Like, and this is what people that do that wear, right?
So that's how that brand can attach themselves to this idea that's larger than them.
And you see that like in the copy and the writing that they do, it's always in that form.
So, yeah, I... what are some of your favorite brands right now that you feel like are communicating well or like just historically?
I mean, there's all the classics, right?
Like Apple and etc.
But I think there's all these small ones that people don't think about.
One of them is like I think about, uh, Pcil, the laundry detergent company out of the UK.
Some of the best copy I've ever seen is them, and it's like, "We're more famous than like Victoria Beckham," is like one of their classic lines.
And it's again, it's what... it's just like one of these like visceral things that they create.
But I'm curious if there's any brands that come to mind on your side.
Yeah, I mean, one that's top of mind is Guinness beer right now.
Like I don't know if their copy is super dialed, but like the split in the G thing that they're leaning into is absolutely insane.
And like some of their collabs that they're doing to get women to drink Guinness is wild too.
Like they partner with a cookie company for like a holiday pop-up, and it's just printing.
It's just like a photo op, you know?
I don't even know if the girls are drinking it.
They might be just passing it to the dudes, you know?
But like it doesn't matter.
But like in the UK, there's an insane shortage of Guinness now, and they're making pint glasses that have the G higher so people drink less off rip because they have a supply issue.
Literally insane!
I don't know who manufactured the splitting the G or if they rode that wave, but like I think the splitting the G, like they should be leaning into it.
Like I think they are, but I just haven't like gone to the Guinness website.
That's amazing!
It's amazing!
They're old.
I mean, they're classic though of a company that had just done branding and positioning so well.
So, you know, all the classic... it's like the toucan with like a Guinness on its nose, right?
Like those classic, you know, I'll bring it up just to show it.
So that was actually like the idea of an Irish pub didn't exist before Guinness.
Guinness invented the Irish pub, and it was solely so that they could sell more Guinness.
So when we think about this, like establishment, you go to any place in the world, right?
Like you're in Tokyo, you're in like, you know, south of Portugal, you're in any of these locations, you're going to find an Irish pub there that like feels the exact same.
Where it's like it's got a nook in the back, it's all wood, and there's some bartender behind it playing, you know, like ska music that is just, you know, pissed that you're there basically is what it feels like.
Yeah, and that was entirely manufactured by the brand, like Guinness, right?
And I think that that is such a just interesting thing of like how powerful this is when you think about good copywriting, when you think about, you know, good basically communicating these ideas in an effective way, what it can do.
Like you can make like a global phenomenon with this, right?
So yeah, and like, but here's this, here's this, you know, the classic.
Yeah, this is so good!
Also, the metal sense, the metal sign is just totally the embossed, just incredible!
Totally!
But yeah, I think it's like, what does this matter?
What are we talking about here?
Like we're all... these guys are all over the map.
I really just... it's just that's the wrong way to look at it, I think.
And Cody and I are always like borrowing from the internet and what works, bringing it back to like we're largely in B2B, you know?
Like we're largely in B2B, like what people would call like boring SaaS agency businesses.
But the things that work, all humans are the same, and B2B is made up of a bunch of B2Cs.
Like at the end of the day, you're just selling a giant B2C inside of a collective that we call B2B.
So I think like borrowing from human psychology and behavior, you can learn and craft this stuff to make your brands like so much more dynamic and have such higher potential of success.
So like this stuff matters a ton.
I think it's also like, you know, direct-to-consumer and B2C, like historically, it's way more cutthroat, right?
Like a great example of this is Dyson.
So like Dyson, you know, a cult brand, like you talk to, you know, any woman right now, I feel like their hair thing is going viral.
Like the straightener and the hair wrap, unbelievable!
It's a crazy product!
I... it's one of the most insane things I've ever seen.
Like someone used it like three weeks ago, and it was like, I... you know, you don't really realize until you see it, and it's like in three, you know, three minutes, their hair is done, which would normally take like a professional like three hours.
Yeah, but I think that, you know, when you think about industries that are more cutthroat, that means that the messaging that works in those industries is going to have to be so refined for it to be successful.
So if we can take that and I can remix it in the B2B space, I've already... it's already gone through that filtering process.
And we see this historically, right?
Like why is UGC suddenly taking off within B2B, right?
Like why are B2B brands like doing UGC ads?
It's because it worked the last five years in D2C, and it's now that cycle is just finally getting here.
So again, just this like why is this important, why you should be thinking about this, why you should be taking in all of this, you know, from everywhere and then using it, it's because instead of having to go through the learning cycles yourself, you can skip to the part where it's like, "Oh, we're not 100% of the way there already. Let's just take this and then, you know, transform it so that it's good for us."
And so I think that maybe is a good jump point to start looking at some of these companies if you're down.
Okay, cool!
Let's do it!
Let's live react to some stuff!
I love it!
So what I suggested that we do for this is basically just go to Y Combinator's website and we just look at the brands that have come through the most recent cohorts and just like look at their websites and be like, "What are they saying? Can we understand what they're saying? And does this actually make sense?"
Right?
So let's just go with this one.
Asha Health, we'll do as the first one.
So launch your AI clinic.
Okay, I look at this and I'm thinking, okay, are they speaking to the practitioners?
So we help medical practices spin up their own clinic designed to fill crucial care gaps.
Generate launch my clinic.
So I think this is actually a decent site.
I would want a little social proof, like are there companies that are up here?
Don't... the first thought I had when I saw AI clinic though was like, who is this speaking to?
Yeah, because I don't think any practitioner I've ever talked to likes AI.
Definitely not!
Curious your thoughts.
Yeah, the only thing like that tips it off is like the 100 physicians at the bottom, and it's like what, 22 size font?
Like good luck!
So it's like I think about like am I shopping for this?
Even if I'm not the ICP, you know, or even if I'm not like speaking, it's like is anybody shopping for launch your AI clinic?
Absolutely not!
No!
So what are we doing?
I think they're thinking about the technology rather than the outcome that the practitioner is trying to create, right?
So what they should say is like create better patient outcomes with, you know, a digital assistant or something like that.
Exactly!
Or like doctors care a lot about throughput.
They want to see more.
They're always getting dinged on like how do they do more, you know, meeting with people over their lunch so they can increase their throughput because that's where their incentive lies.
So it's like increase your... like see two times the patients in the same amount of time.
Love that!
Or, you know, so yeah, something like that.
Maybe it's not throughput because they might be talking to like the practice owners.
Oh, what's also... what is this that you're doing?
I'm just basically, I'm just in the inspecting console, just changing the headline to see how it looks on the site and see if like, okay, if we came in and we saw this instead of what it is currently, does this convey more of what is actually like this is trying to accomplish?
Sweet!
That's sick!
I don't think people know that you can do that, so it's an easy way to be like, does this convey the idea and the feeling that I'm experiencing, you know, that I'm trying to get them to experience?
Also, this is a great way to do permissionless projects, people.
If you want and you are a copywriter and you want to do like rewriting hero sections as a service, you can literally do that in design, screenshot it, rip it, film yourself while you do it.
That's another thing that jumps out of me too is that they're referencing Asha Health.
I don't care!
I don't care about your company!
I don't care!
All... yeah, this is... tell me what you're doing for me!
Yeah, this screams for me, you know, it's like for me, me, me, I'm Asha, I'm this, I'm that, I'm that.
It's like you need to be 90% for them and them as your customers and 10% for you.
Also, write less passively.
Like make your medical practice more efficient, right?
Something like that!
Yeah, like make a statement that you believe that you can accomplish for them.
You know, this isn't perfect.
I would, you know, obviously do multiple versions of this, but like just these small things can make a huge impact.
Now look at the contrast between this and what they have currently now, right?
Let's just like do this.
So launch your AI clinic.
Okay, I don't think I really want to do that.
I don't know what that means.
In contrast, see two times more patients in half the time.
Make your medical practice more efficient, right?
That immediately, I'm like, "Oh, like this is enticing to me. I can make more money with that."
But what's your thoughts on this?
I love it!
And then like I would change the call to action to be like, "Get set up in five minutes" or whatever.
Something like, like what do I need to do, right?
'Cause like at every point from hero to sub to the button, you're... you can look at that as a mini funnel, and you're going to have drop-off each way of the go.
So it's like, cool, I'm interested in seeing two times patients in half the time.
I do want more efficiency.
What do I have to give to get that?
And oh, I have to give five minutes?
Alright, I'll get in there in five minutes!
Totally!
And then guess what?
The minute you click that, your onboarding has to be dialed, people!
Totally!
And that ain't it!
Nope!
I would probably just drop them into like name, email, first thing because personally, I always am trying to capture their information as quickly as possible without everything else.
It's just a section of the form basically.
So like, you know, the one of two of the form is name, email, whatever other contact information you want.
And then the second of that form is then where it's like if you need qualifying information, that's the difference.
And this company is probably super early, right?
They're probably just starting to try to have initial conversations with customers.
But personally, like I look at funded companies, I'm like, if you're funded, like you need to be sprinting.
So every part of this needs to be like basically like locked in.
'Cause you need to be focusing on is that the first two pieces of acquisition and activation, right?
Get those people in, get the sign-up to happen.
How do I get them to start using the product?
So yeah!
And so like reducing the requirements that they have to fill out, like this is a huge friction point.
A full-screen, eight-field thing where also no hero shots, no anything.
Like dude, getting bold, new, or lovable and like cook up a user interface you can make.
And there's two and a half frames, right, to complete this form.
Like it's one, two, two and a half frames basically of this whole page.
This can... this should just be a single thing with the only action that you're trying to get them to do.
But yeah, and a lot... I know a lot of these companies just don't have it.
You know, like they... it's like the Joe Biden-Trump meme where it's like, "I don't know what he just said, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't either."
You know, that's kind of how I feel like reviewing early sites is like I don't even think they know what they're building yet.
No, totally!
And that's fine!
Like that could be a part of it, but I think what you said, what I think is the biggest piece of this is like are people wanting this thing that you're trying to get them to sell?
Like so often, I see companies try to sell a thing to people that they're not wanting to buy rather than like it's the same thing just repositioned in a different way on a thing they're wanting to buy, right?
An outcome that they're wanting to buy.
They're not trying to buy your thing; they're trying to buy an outcome that you provide them.
So only three things that people are trying to buy: it's time back, they're trying to get more money, or they're trying to have more status within their community.
So those are the three things that you have to think about, and those are the only three things that you can lean on to sell with.
Yeah, I love that question so much when I'm writing like hero copies or reviewing anything like that.
It's just like does anyone shop for this headline?
Totally!
And that's such a good filter!
Like such a good filter!
Like you will be deleting headlines real quick all day!
I'll be deleting all my headlines!
So I love it!
Cool, let's do the next one.
We can filter these of like which ones we find interesting too.
So Bit Frost, Orbitals building a network of relay satellites.
This one is not as much like... I would say it's more like a hard tech, so maybe we skip that one.
What's your thoughts?
Yeah, let's do something like that has like a chance at PMF in like the next week.
Cool, cool!
So maybe Human Layer or Human in the Loop for AI agents.
Let's rip it!
Yeah, okay!
I like videos!
I'm big on videos right now!
Yep!
So we'll see how long they last, but I do like videos!
Yep!
Contact humans for feedback, input, and approvals.
Okay, so it sounds like what they're doing is basically plugs in, so an agent does work, and then it contacts a human to like okay their work.
Is that kind of what I'm taking from this?
Guess and check system, even in the loop with agents.
It's like it is pretty jargony, I would say.
Yep!
And maybe this is the demographic that they're going after when they have API and SDK.
Like maybe it is for devs, which in this case I would be okay with.
Yep!
And it's a dot dev.
I actually think this is alright.
I don't love this either.
I think that it feels like, you know, what is this?
This is seven words, and six of them are jargon.
Yeah!
I think what would be more probably impactful is something like, um, provide feedback to AI agents' work, you know?
Or something like that!
Or like automated almost, or something, you know?
Like fully automated almost!
I think like that tugs at like how people feel about AI and agents right now too, yeah!
So there is like a, like, you know, I saw someone the other day on Twitter, they were like pumped about my tool, like almost got the spelling right, you know?
Yeah!
It's like dope!
I'm in, dude!
Let me sign up if you're almost getting the spelling!
I know you got something cool!
So I actually think that this personally, if I landed on a site like this, would very... it would intrigue me.
So like fully automated, dot, dot, dot, almost!
And then it's like, okay, this headline makes me go, "Okay, what is this?"
This is very like... this is like speaking to a feeling that everybody has, like you just said.
And then this describes very explicitly, and what I did here too just to show this is like I removed... they're like human layer is an API.
Like they already know what you're here, they're here.
You don't need to say your name again!
Hey, I'm Jordan, and I approve this message!
Exactly!
Exactly!
Instead, it's like API and SDK that enables AI agents to contact humans for feedback and put in approvals.
This to me, brilliant!
Like this is actually, I think, a like something that people are having a problem with and also a way that communicates it.
Yeah, we need to send this to them ASAP!
I think one thing that they could do to let like make this ready to ship is have a better thumbnail on their video where it's like maybe some meme about like a robot and a human, you know, like locking up even slack message that's like, you know, have it be like, "Hey, this like I just completed, you know, this task," and it's like a trolo card that's like attached in it.
Can you give me feedback on what I did?
You know, something like that!
Totally!
It's cool though!
I mean, I'm intrigued!
Might check this out later!
Same!
Sweet!
Alright, fabricate hardw.
Engineers spend a quarter of their time just figuring out how to get...
I actually like that it's a little bit more human of language.
Let's do this!
I think I saw this team.
I'm a mechanical engineering purchasing built for hardware stream.
You're purchasing with intelligent procurement.
Sir, this is a Wendy's!
Okay, so I'm just going to show people like an easy way to like in one sentence.
Did they just put two verbs back to back?
[Laughter]
Yesing!
Simplify!
Only ten words!
Intelligent procurement software!
Yeah, I mean, fabricate helps hardware teams buy parts faster and save engineers time.
Where can we send the Stripe invoice?
Where can we send?
Alright, so let's redo this one just to show how much better it ends up being, right?
And maybe automate logistics or logistics tracking for hardware companies.
Or what's your...
What's your...
I think it needs to be like explicit.
Yeah!
It needs to be like tethered.
So I think about like how do people shop for groceries?
How do engineers shop?
Like Amazon for engineers or, um, yeah!
Like imagine if you had...
I'm trying to think about how to like frame it.
'Cause ERPs, I know like the target audience knows who this is.
Like basically like it's a sourcing dilemma here.
Like, "Hey, I'm trying to make whatever, a medical device, and I need like 20 different vendors."
And it's like I need to be approved suppliers, etc.
So it's like, yeah, sourcing in a click or something.
Or it's like, I don't know, maybe it's like buy parts faster or spend less time buying parts or spend less time tracking parts.
I'm thinking like hardware sourcing, it's for the engineer or, or like, yeah, yeah!
Like sourcing, you don't hate!
Um, you know, 'cause you're like talking to the engineers here.
So you can get like if you're really niche like this and you're like really going to be targeting like this demographic, you can use inside jokes and like inside pain points where you can be like, "Oh, if you know, you know," and your credibility can increase.
So I would have... I would change the subtitle then to buy hardware or buy parts or buy hardware parts faster and save engineering time.
I don't know, something like that.
This isn't perfect.
I don't think this is there all the way, but this I think this is how I would go about it.
But this one's tough just 'cause the design I think is absolutely trash as well.
Like it's just... what are we doing here?
What would you do on the design-wise to make this more represent?
I go left justified with it and then a product video.
Um, like these complex things, like these screenshots, like if you have time, like or if you have interest, like this does absolutely nothing for me.
You know, like you could be clickable prototype in Bolt in like literally one day with like a design that looks dang good.
Like it won't work, like it's not there yet, but that's what I would do.
Yeah!
It's just too like linear, too like dark mode linear.
It's like, yeah!
Are you serving Y Combinator, your peers, or are you serving your customers?
Yeah!
I'd almost go like I would look at like SAP or sorry, look at like SAP.
Yeah!
Or Oracle, you know, it's like who... and then just mirror it.
Yeah!
Like ERPs, like who are the ERP systems?
Like if you can level it up and make it feel even a little bit better.
I mean, SAP, like they're just massive!
They absolutely massive!
Yeah!
I don't even understand how all the stuff they do.
But yeah, so that... that's a cool product though.
No, it probably serves a huge problem.
I think again, it's just like how do you communicate that thing more effectively?
So yeah!
And like show the process of the problem, you know?
Like going from 3D modeling to hardware prints to talking to vendors to getting quotes to sourcing it.
Like that's like a to looking at cost to looking, you know, where each of the, you know, the items that we ordered at, etc.
Yeah, you could go with a simple like us versus them too, like or today versus tomorrow to show as well where it's like today laundry list of tasks, tomorrow like use fabricate.
So I think that's cool!
Yeah!
I think another thing of this too is like traditionally, you know, it's like you if an engineer is spending time having to track products, that's a massive resource like suck.
I mean, and that's probably the positioning of this actually is like, you know, your engineers stop spending time on the procurement and logistics tracking up for, you know, the things they're building.
Like they spend their time engineering rather than, you know, doing all this other almost like paperwork, etc.
Yeah!
Yeah, you could do that!
Like you could do something like that for the headline too where it's like, yeah!
Like your engineers' best-kept secret or something, like the pl... like I don't know!
So yeah, let your engineers engineer!
Yep!
I love that!
[Laughter]
Actually, or engineers should be engineering!
Yeah!
Uh, inspect!
So while he's changing that, that's... yeah, that's something we, you know, we were really critical at the beginning.
Like just speak exactly what it does, but sometimes stuff's boring, and you need to add some levity to things.
So have some fun with it too!
Or even like keep engineers engineering!
Yeah!
That's good!
That's good!
Three words!
See, we just cut three words out, made it three words, and then, you know, buy, track, and audit, you know, hardware parts.
And again, it just depends on like what their actual like product does, but I would try to hit like what are three things it's doing, you know, faster and say, you know, F or...
Yeah, I would just be like faster!
Honestly, I think I would just get rid of that or like 80% faster!
Make it concrete!
We're cooking for real!
I love this stuff, dude!
We're cooking for real!
I love to keep engineers engineering!
Yeah, dude!
I think we just start about... we might do a hero section agency here!
I feel lied!
Limited time only!
Yeah!
Send them in!
Right until we get bored!
We are open for business!
Oh, I love it!
Alright, so roundabout tech, software for AI-powered traffic lights.
Let's... this... this is sick!
Like, okay!
Mmm, oh my God!
Human-centric traffic lights!
Oh God!
Dude, am I a traffic light for Halloween?
Holy God!
Um, so I would change it to something like this.
Never make me wait at a red light again!
But we'll make that like more specific.
Cars are smart, lights are still dumb!
Or something, you know?
Drivers are smart, traffic lights are dumb!
Yeah!
Okay, alright!
Like so maybe it's like not anymore, you know, or something!
They just like, um, until now!
Yeah!
Or it's like you could do... you could do something fun there too.
It's like traffic lights are dumb, and you could cross out R and just like have like a handwritten were!
Yeah!
Like that's a design element that you can copy!
Traffic lights were dumb!
So there's that!
Okay, before we do that, let's... I want to be like what is this in the eighth-grade level?
Oh yes!
Alright, so now do the same for this roundabout.
Uses roundabout uses AI to make traffic lights smarter and CI safer.
Alright, so this is what it is now.
I'm going to open up another window.
We're going to put just the chat GPT version in.
Also, I want to make this tool public where it's... [Laughter]
Like what tool?
Just like that, like you basically just like paste in a website URL, and it tells you what it actually does and like a few words, right?
Yeah!
So roundabout uses AI to make traffic lights smarter and city safer versus human-centric traffic lights powered by AI.
Crazy!
Okay, so to break down the contrast, the only thing that jumps out of me is human... traffic lights.
I'm like, okay, I'm kind of context-oriented with that.
I have no idea what this means!
I have no idea what this means!
Maybe kind of I have what this means!
It's like we're focused on the human experience, I guess maybe!
But in contrast, it's like, you know, AI makes traffic lights smarter and cities safer!
Or AI... and I would... yeah, I don't... I would even be like optimize... uh, optimize traffic lights and make city safer!
You know, how would you get that to be more like, you know, fear text?
What's your thoughts?
Yeah, that would... I mean, we don't have to do it, but remove roundabout out of there for sure!
Before you have an aneurism!
Yeah!
I think it's just like, uh, like the technology is powerful, but our objects are still dumb!
Mhm!
You know, um, so it's like adding AI like... or like AI can be safe or, you know, like something like that!
So we put it in traffic city street safer!
Yeah!
I guess you could call us Batman!
You know, like why don't they name their company to like vigilante?
Like that's such a good name!
Come on, dog!
Roundabout Technologies!
That's such a good name!
Yeah!
Make city streets safer!
And then you can go into the explanation, and I would just do like make this ten words!
This is so underrated of doing this!
Like just sparring with either Claude or Chad GPT!
Like totally!
And just say do less!
Do less!
And then deciding, okay, is this conveying the idea right?
So like let's look at this now contrasting it all right?
Human-centric traffic lights powered by AI, right?
We make AI-powered... yep!
So all I... it lost me!
It lost me right here is where I stopped reading!
Yeah!
Well, it's like look at this too where they're like we human-centric traffic lights powered by AI!
AI-powered traffic lights!
Like it's just like what did you just say?
The same thing twice backwards!
Exactly!
Exactly!
Say new things every time you're writing something!
So make street... city streets safer!
AI traffic signals optimize real-time flow, reducing weights and enhancing safety!
I mean, yeah!
I love it!
I'll buy that now, right?
You're selling it to your government!
Totally!
This is like for everybody, right?
And you can have like your different stakeholders.
You can have different landing pages that speak directly to them, you know?
Totally!
Like if you're speaking to whatever the director of transportation for a said city, like know their pain points and make headlines specifically for them!
You can even ask chat GPT!
Like I think a lot of people get that wrong too.
It's like who said that you're only allowed to have one landing page?
Totally!
I totally agree!
I actually think that the rest of the site, like this showing this is an aha moment, so sick!
Totally!
So, so sick!
I always... or you could do like a today versus tomorrow thing like I was saying, you know?
It's like today, it's just like you're just got a camera.
Tomorrow, it's like... or like a slider would be so sick!
Yep!
Like oh yeah!
Like where it's the image sliders where it's like, yeah, the teeth whitening apps or whatever!
Yeah, exactly!
X-ray vision!
I love it!
Okay, cool!
Let's do... we got time for one more!
We help AI agents learn from data, use synth.
I don't know if that's that interesting.
I feel like we kind of did one already.
Help care AI workers for healthcare works to find, call, and schedule more patients.
Interesting!
We both got a little healthcare in the past!
Mhm!
Little healthcare experience in the past!
So alright, this is a great one!
Oh my... [Laughter]
God!
I mean the visual!
Like okay!
Um, I don't mind the visual!
I think the process... what care more is the first thing though!
I hate when there's a delay on the messaging personally!
I'm curious your thoughts!
Terrible!
Look at all this movement here too!
Like this stuff's flipping, that stuff's flipping, all these people!
Look, AI people, if you're building an AI in healthcare, they cannot look AI!
Like period!
That is the last industry that is going robots!
100%!
They despise it!
Also, I wouldn't message it as AI!
No!
I would message it as like an AI receptionist!
It's funny, the YC description actually says better what this thing does in the homepage currently!
This is... I don't even know how we could change this!
But like, I mean the text can't... you have to... the whole thing!
But the text on this, this though of like AI, I wouldn't call it an AI worker!
I would be like, I would just say, uh, find, call, and schedule, uh, or digital receptionist!
I would say digital receptionist for healthcare!
F... call and schedule more patients automatically!
Digital receptionist for Susan!
Yeah!
Like, you know, sidekick for Susan!
Um, yeah, dude, a lot of these people struggle!
Like AI, if like AI is going to be invisible, stop putting your product messaging around AI!
Yep!
It's GNA!
Go away!
Look at how many of these too!
It's crazy!
I know!
It's like in vogue right now!
And like especially that's how you get funded for YC, blah, blah, blah!
But here, architects!
Yeah!
Alright, let's do this vague!
But I mean at least they're calling out who it is, right?
Yeah!
Yeah, not mad!
I just don't know what it means, and I don't think they do either!
Architects meaning like what?
What are the tedious tasks specifically?
Show me three of them!
So I think the copy's fine here!
It's the visuals supporting that just don't do it at all!
So like you got to have visual copy tether here!
Yeah!
And yeah, what are the tedious tasks?
You know, maybe they like are listed there, and they like funnel down into like the brand or whatever!
Or the AI co-pilot!
So you could have a hero on the left, funnel it down, and then say what it is!
'Cause you're then you're visually showing what you're doing too!
So creating, editing, and optimizing architectural plans in 2D, 3D!
Okay, so this is probably a time-saving positioning!
Yeah!
I'm sure they have to do render the 2Ds, right now, and then render the 3Ds!
And I bet it's like multi-software!
You know, you see the 2D, 3D there!
Why not make like invest in a GIF or like a video that's like literally like it's being sketched?
You know?
You know what this is probably doing?
It's they can design in 3D and it automatically does the 2D!
Yeah!
I bet!
I bet it does that too!
I think that was what fabricate was doing too!
They weren't saying it, but I think it was taking two 3D models and making drawings to make sourcing easier!
Totally!
It's a cool trend!
That is a super cool trend!
It's like do once, get all the versions!
It's funny!
It's actually like it's the same as what's happening in content, right?
Where it's like do one thing and then get all these variations!
Like remix it out!
We're simple beings!
We are simple beings!
Yep!
Yeah, this is really cool!
This is fun!
Yeah, it was really fun!
Hopefully, this was valuable!
I know we were jamming, and we had a blast!
So, I love this, and I think for a lot of founders, like this is like one of the most impactful things that they can do, but it's not thought about, right?
Like they get all obsessed with like product-market fit and like building product and what's my distribution.
But in reality, like what they should be saying is, and really the start of the origin of every company in my mind is like, do people want to buy this thing?
Can I sell it to them?
And what is the language to create that bridge, right?
Like selling is just finding the language to sell the thing that people want to buy to them.
So, and if the language is off, you'll never know if they want it.
So you might as well start there!
Yeah!
And you should meet them too!
I think, you know, the final thing to leave people with is like don't force a viewpoint on like COC!
Can't get people to buy more Coca-Cola, and they're one of the most funded companies in the world!
Like why did they buy all these water brands?
Why did they buy all of these like kombucha companies?
You know, why are those?
It's because these trends are happening, and they have to respond to them!
Business is actually a lot more responding to the market forces, not forcing things on the market force!
But totally, the classic I get is people would be like, "Oh, but what about Cloud?"
You know, like they forced Cloud on people!
It's like no, they wanted cheaper computer and easier!
Like they didn't want to have to have racks that they were doing!
Like that is still a want!
It's still a need!
They're still attaching to a thing that people want!
So that's my final thought!
But any last words?
I love it!
That's it, dude!
Amazing!
Amazing!
A blast!
Jordan, if people want to reach out to you, where can they find you?
Twitter or X is the best!
Jordan Mix, JRDNMX!
Check it out!
Say what's up!
We love meeting friends on the internet!
Amazing!
Yeah, we'll link it in the show notes below!
And thanks again, homie!
Alright, bro!
Thanks for having me in the pit!
Yeah, glad to have you back, man!
Alright, bro!
Cheers!
Peace!