Microgreens Soil Science: Maximizing Production With Pro-Mix

You start to grow your plant, it's it's immediate the effect. It's, you know, within I don't know, 24 hours or something like that, the effect is there for the plant. Um, and what it can do, it helps with, uh, it does help with certain nutrients absorption. Uh, and it also creates a biofilm all around the roots, and that is like a protection against any little, uh, plant pathogen or thing like that in the soil.

Welcome to the Micin Mastery podcast! I'm your host, Jonah Croc Malal. Together, we'll explore the art of turning tiny seeds into a thriving micin empire, sharing insights, coveted secrets, and strategic wisdom from building one of Canada's largest micin farms. Stay tuned for thought-provoking conversations with leading figures in the world of microgreens.

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Welcome to the podcast everyone! On today's episode, we have Susan Parent from Premier Tech, who is the company behind the ProMix line of products that most of you guys are familiar with. We're going to do a deep dive into the benefits of different bio-additives for micin and edible flowers, the different ProMix products that are best suited for growing, the sustainability of peat moss, soil storage recommendations, and so much more. I learned a lot in this episode, and I know you all will as well. Let's get right into it.

Hey Susan, welcome to the podcast! I'm really excited to have you on today.

Hi, nice to be here!

Awesome! So, it'd be great to start just kind of understanding what sparked your personal interest and passion for horticulture.

Well, uh, I don't think it's just one thing, you know. It's a combination of many things. Um, I always did like gardening; like, you know, when I was a teenager, I liked to see things grow. Um, I lived in Montreal for a good part of my young teenage years, and Montreal has really awesome soil for gardening, so it was a lot of fun and you can be successful.

When I went to school, I did a degree in biology. Um, I think during that, it's like a three-year bachelor's in science, and I really got… we have, you know, an incredible botanical garden there in Montreal, and I was really allowed to study plants a lot. I discovered this really incredible world of plants and how they are so incredibly adapted to live in, you know, different circumstances.

That's obviously where I learned about, you know, all the beneficial microbes, you know, in the soil and all that, which led me to do a master's degree at Laval University in Quebec City, specifically on mycorrhiza and the soil microbial biology and forest and agriculture-type soils. So, all that kind of put together and doing experiences—well, that's when I started to work way back then here at Premier Tech in horticulture applications of mycorrhizal inoculant, and that's how my official journey in the working world all started.

Cool! Yeah, I guess back then, there must have not been a whole lot of like, you know, like when I started farming 10 years ago, mycorrhiza was like this hot topic that, you know, everyone was really interested in how to utilize it for higher yields and stuff like that. Um, when you started, was it just like in the beginning of that research in application, or was it already being used in horticultural applications?

Well, there was, um, you know, in the scientific community, it was known. There was, you know, like a North American research group on mycorrhiza. So, yeah, in the scientific world, there was knowledge about mycorrhiza, but in the, um, let's say in the gardeners or the growers, mycorrhiza was really not actually known at all. Rhizobia back then was known because of the benefits for the different types of crops; that was better known, but not mycorrhiza.

Also, back then, to produce mycorrhiza on an industrial basis, it was like almost impossible at that time. So I think that was maybe one of the major, um, how you say roadblocks for this inoculant or this mycorrhiza, this type of symbiosis to get known better because we couldn't—we could produce it, but not in the ways we can produce it today.

Yeah, so yeah, that's really interesting. I never even thought about the production side of like growing mycelium to be able to use it. Whether it's—is it generally like the mycelium or is it spores that are added to products?

It's spores because the spores have a really good viability, and when you're adding it, let's say, in a growing media like peat moss and stuff, you want something that's going to survive. You know, you don't want something that's going to be dead after a month. So we had to use the spores, but I would say the major roadblock with mycorrhiza is that there's like, there's many, many types of mycorrhiza, but let's say the one that's good for most herbaceous types of plants that we're growing, so be it soybeans, potatoes, or greenhouse greens, you know, sunflower, and all these different types of plants, is this type of mycorrhiza called arbuscular mycorrhiza. It cannot grow without a plant root.

So, you know, normally these fungi, you know, they need sugars, you know, to be able to grow. Um, normally molds or other types of fungi, you know, you just put it on a petri plate, you know, and you have a sugar-based agar or gel there, and it just grows on it. Um, this one, one of its major challenges was to make it grow alone without the root. Until this day, 2024, we still cannot grow it alone without the presence of a root that will provide the sugars it needs to grow.

Wow! That was—yeah, that was a big thing. So, yeah, we found ways of going to, you know, research allowed us, with collaborations with other universities, allowed us to find a way to grow it.

Yeah, and I'm really excited to get deep into the conversation with mycorrhizal bio-stimulant biofungicides. I think that's a really interesting topic that, um, I'm just curious about, and I'm sure a lot of listeners as well, um, that are micin growers would like to understand if there's potential benefit for them as farmers to use those types of products.

Um, but uh, like, so what is your current role at Premier?

Well, I worked for a long time in research and development, and now for the past, I guess, 10 to 15 years, I'm more involved in the commercial teams to help with the introduction of new products or to answer growers' needs, and how our products can help them out in order to, I don't know, if they want to convert, let's say, to organic growing. Well, how can I advise them to do so, and how can they make the best of our products?

So I do a lot of, um, kind of trial work with the growers to see how it works in their greenhouses. And if they have issues, well, I'll go and support the commercial teams to, yeah, try to come up with some kind of a suggestion of a new product or something that can help or do soil analysis and try to understand a bit better what the problems are.

I'm sure you've seen a whole wide range of issues and solutions to problems for farms over that period of time, which is really cool, and I'm guessing it must be quite rewarding to be able to work directly with growers and farmers to help solve those problems.

Oh, definitely, yeah. It's, uh, well, because, you know, we all have a c—I have a certain amount of knowledge, but there's always something new to learn. And so, so it's a, on ProMix, it's a progress. It's always a progress, you know, to be able to gain knowledge and share knowledge. So it's a give and take, you know, it's not just me that gives it; I do benefit a lot.

Yeah, working with them, yeah!

Yeah, I learn a lot over that period.

Okay, that's a great starting point to know. So Premier makes the ProMix line of products, which is, you know, a very—very, very—I would say—I don't know if it's the most popular, but as far as I know, it seems to be the most commonly available, um, at least on the more retail small grower side. ProMix is what most mic greens growers use and what, you know, what I recommend.

What would you say like the breakdown of customers between, you know, commercial growers, retail stores, garden centers, or any other sort of customers you have? What that kind of breakdown looks like for your product?

Well, we have products that are packaged really for commercial growers and then we have other products that are packaged more for retail use, um, so would what you could find in garden centers. But a lot of our customers that are homeowners, for example, or, you know, not Master Gardeners, but almost, but they work on a smaller scale, a lot of them will use our professional products because there is a little bit of difference between the two.

The professional products will dry down a lot faster, so they're kind of easier for a greenhouse grower to use, whereas the retail products, a lot of our customers are growing outside, and they don't want it to dry down too fast. So we've got like two categories of products, and they're labeled that way.

So if I'm to make a breakdown, I would say maybe 50% of our products just go to commercial growing, and then another 50% goes to garden centers, box stores, and, um, home Master Gardeners, if I can say, or also like with the cannabis, um, a lot of people are growing at home, so there's a lot of professional products that are sold to that type of hobby for the cannabis customers.

When you say professional product, is it like ProMix HP or MP? Are those considered professional products?

Okay, yeah. Yeah, from what I've seen, most of the micin growers use the professional products, um, and the retail products there. So they would be more like a darker kind of peat moss, like they hold more water, sort of.

They'll hold more water, and a lot of times, there's compost added to that because people like when it's got this earthy feel to it. The homeowners don't really like the dryness of the professional or the commercial growing type of media, and a lot of times the commercial one is in a compressed bale, so a lot of customers don't like it to have to fluff up the bale.

Yeah, that makes sense. But there's still a lot that prefer the professional, you know, especially if you're growing, you know, really things like microgreens or if you're growing, uh, leafy lettuce and things like that. It's, you know, when you're almost like a semi—not industrial, but even though it's a small little greenhouse you have in your backyard or something like that, you want something that you can control, you know. If you wet it, and then you've got like 10 days of overcast and you can't seem to give it enough fertilizer because it was wet, so a lot of the homeowners will prefer using the commercial products.

Awesome! Out of the commercial products, um, what would you say is the most, uh, like best-selling soils that you produce for commercial growers?

Well, I would say there's two best sellers. There's what we call the ProMix HP, which is high porosity, so that's if you want something that's really going to dry down rapidly. You don't want it, for plants that don't want to have their feet in water; they don't want to have their roots in too much water. That's our HP—it’s a big seller.

And the other one is BX that dries down a little bit less fast. It has less perlite in there. Perlite is like a little aggregate; it's like a little stone that has been expanded, and that does give aeration to the mix for the plant's initial growth. Those are the two best sellers. That's in conventional; it's not made for organic.

Do you have some that are certified organic as well?

Yeah, that's a good point. So in terms of… so what would be the best comparisons? Because I get this question a lot, and I'm not—like, I think I know the answer, but I'm not certain. What's the best comparison on the organic side for HP and BX for those that want the two different options?

Okay, well, on the organic side, we do now have an HP that's organic, so that would be your equivalent. Uh, yeah, there’s a big difference because in the organic ferti, we don't add any organic fertilizers to that, so it's a product that they have to add their own organic fertilizers to it. But when it comes to drainage and all that, it's—it's comparable, those two HP organic and not comparable.

And then on the organic side, for the BX, the comparison would be what we call MP, like multi-purpose organic mix that has—that will probably dry down a little bit less fast than the BX, but it’s the equivalent pot in what we call like our potting mixes.

Yeah, see, I always thought the MP was like a closer to HP, but there was no— I think when you know when I used MP, there is no organic HP. Does the organic HP also have coconut coir in it like the MP?

Okay, interesting! Yeah, okay, well, we have to put the coconut coir to help with the water management because peat alone, once it dries out, it's really hard to wet up. When you get into organic, we have organic surfactants to help, but they're not quite as good as the ones in conventional, so that's why we put the coconut coir in there.

Yeah, yeah, like if you just take a bale of peat moss that's dry and just add water to it, it'll just literally float there. It's super hydrophobic. Um, and it's one of the—one of the challenges with growing with peat moss is that if things dry out too much and you don't have, um, like a good surfactant in there that will reabsorb the water easily, it can be a challenge on the watering side sometimes.

Um, so yeah, it makes sense that to have the coir in there for that, because I've noticed that as well, is that the coconut coir makes it water a lot closer to what something like HP would than if you just take straight peat moss and try to water it. It can be quite challenging without the coir. One challenge I've had with coconut coir in general is that it doesn't—it often comes from places where they water it with brackish water, so it can be a bit salty.

Do you guys have any procedure or anything to kind of get rid of the salt, or do you purchase coir that already has the salt eliminated or removed?

Yeah, the coir we get is already pre-washed; that's what they call it. We're part owners of that company, and it's coming from Sri Lanka, so it's really tailored to our needs. Um, and it has a low—really a low what we call electrical conductivity; it's really, really low.

But when you're working with coir, you know, you have to adapt, and you have to, you know, make sure you're not putting too much fer, you know, too much fertilizer, for example, because it can, you know, it can make that EC go up a little bit more than if you're just working with straight peat, so you have to, you know, keep an eye on things when you're working with it.

But, um, what we're getting is really working very, very well.

Awesome! Yeah, that's pretty much the biggest concern I've had with using coconut coir. I think it's a great growing medium, and it works well in sync with peat, I've found, like in the MP product. But the salt content, when you just buy the bricks, can be very challenging to work with from an EC perspective, especially as an organic, or I was adding in organic fertilizer, which can often increase EC, not in direct proportion, because you have, you know, you can't just add in nitrogen or just add in phosphorus. That comes with other things in organic fertilizers, because it's just—that's the way natural fertilizers work.

Um, so, I found it in the early years when I was using coconut coir; it was more challenging to manage the fertilizer from an organic perspective. So that's great that you guys are having washed coir.

Another question I have that I think a lot of people that use ProMix might be interested in hearing is like, what—as someone who uses like a ProMix HP or MP or whatever it may be, what services are available from Premier to kind of help growers out in terms of if they're having any challenges with, uh, you know, growing their mic greens or edible flowers or whatever they're growing?

Well, we have—um, I don't know if we can say like it's like a grower services where you can, on our website, you can ask questions and someone will answer them. So you can do it online, you can phone. We've got a grower services 1-800 number where you can phone. You can phone also our customer service, um, which is another 1-800 number or email them and say about your problem, and they'll direct you to the proper grower services person, all depending on where you're living.

Like, I cover the Maritimes, Quebec, and Ontario and Canada, but we have someone else that does the U.S. Eastern, U.S. Western Canada. So, uh, there's many ways you can reach us, but on our website, I think even our—I'm pretty sure you can contact us directly, even on the website, uh, just go to the section that's called grower services or whatever.

Awesome! So, like, the way it kind of would work is they—like if let's say it's not a simple problem that can be solved with like an online chat sort of thing, then they'll direct you to one of, um, like either yourself or someone else, um, that has a similar role that can help diagnose the problem and try to figure out what—how to solve whatever it is, whether it's, you know, could be a disease issue or, you know, maybe something with the soil or something like that. So you can help kind of direct them in the right direction to solve those problems.

Yeah, well, we can do some, you know, resolution—problem resolution. We can do some—there's a limit, you know, at some point if it's a—I don't know if we're talking about a huge, huge greenhouse, uh, well, you know, maybe we'll have to go and go and visit, you know, like a grower that's having an incredible issue and he doesn't know what it is.

You know, but if he's using—especially if he's using our products, I mean, if he's using someone else's product, well, we'll encourage him to go and contact whoever sold them his growing media. But, um, yeah, we can even go visit the customer, get some samples, get them analyzed, because we work also with independent labs that, um, service us and Canada, all depending, you know, where you're living. And then we get—that helps a lot.

Oh, yeah, or if our local sales rep, um, you know, we have independent sales reps that are located, you know, throughout Canada, so you can contact them, and they will reach out and try to find someone to help you, that's for sure.

Yeah, for sure! I've—in my years of farming, I've had many soil tests done, uh, and found some very interesting results. There was once we had a, um, a brassicaceae; I can't remember the exact name, but it was like one of the first reported cases in Canada, and we were really struggling with keeping it under control on our, like, mustard greens.

And, um, luckily, we were able to actually finally eliminate it after a couple years, but it was only after, like, diagnosing it and knowing what it is that we were able to try to find solutions to the problem because I think a lot of growers will spend a lot of time just being like, okay, it must be pythium or it must be, you know, fusarium or whatever, you know, whatever diseases, uh, it appears to be.

But if you actually go and do a soil analysis or a leaf analysis, then you can actually figure out what it is, and there's some great labs now. For example, University of Guelph, they do like full DNA analysis, um, and it's relatively affordable to figure out what—you know, what is actually the disease because, as an example, I didn't know that there's multiple types of pythium, so there's some that are really dominant in cold temperatures, and there's other ones that are much more suited to warm temperatures.

And because we were like an indoor vertical farm, we were having the high-temperature one. And in my experience in a greenhouse, I was used to dealing with the cold-temperature pythium, thinking that I need to increase the water temperature to reduce its ability to spread when it was actually the opposite.

So having the actual data on what disease or pathogen, if that's what it is, uh, makes it so much easier to solve the problem than just trying to play guesswork and being trying to be a plant doctor without proper diagnosis tools.

True, true. Yeah, a lot of times, you know, if you have—if you have insects, well, if you don't, you know, put them on the—if you don't put those sticky cards, you don't know what your populations are. And, uh, so you really need to have that type of information for sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's actually a good point. Because I think a lot of micin farms are indoors, they don't have a lot of pest issues, so I haven't really talked about, like, IPM much on the podcast, but integrated pest management for those that haven't heard of that.

But yeah, in a greenhouse, that's like a really important part of keeping things going smoothly because greenhouses have a whole different set of challenges than growing in like an indoor kind of vertical farm situation.

True, yeah. Um, in terms of peat moss, uh, which is the main ingredient in most of, uh, the ProMix product lines, um, I've learned a lot in the COVID years because, um, we had a lot of challenges. I'm sure, uh, you guys did as well with sourcing peat moss, and then I found out that there's so many different grades of peat moss, um, which I thought was fascinating. So I’d love from, you know, your more expert level of understanding of this, um, what the kind of different, you know, grades of peat are and what their use cases are for different growers.

Okay, well, peat moss—it comes from a bog. So, okay, and there's different types of bogs, but the preferred type of bogs that we're using to harvest this peat moss is coming from the north, so it's what we call, um, they're more acidic type of bogs than those that you will find in the south.

So, without getting into big detail, uh, bogs are a wetland, and in nature, it's an accumulation of sphagnum over years. So, you know, it can be mixed with some wood, like, um, especially here in North America. There are a lot of trees and tree roots and things like that that you can find in a bog.

But, so a bog can accumulate over hundreds of years sphagnum peat moss. So, the sphagnum peat moss on the top layer is the most fibrous one, and as you go deeper and deeper in the bog, the peat will eventually, uh, a bit like in a soil, you know, you have that humus, you know, you have the leaf litter, and then you have the what we call the humus or the dark soil or black earth or whatever.

Well, in the bog, it's a bit different. It remains like a litter that’s over, you know, I don't know, 30, 40, 50, 60 feet high, or in meters, you know, 20, 30 meters high. The decomposition process is really, really slow. In soil, it's really, really fast because you've got worms, you've got all sorts of things there that biodegrade the organic matter, but in a bog, it's really, really slow and it's very acidic, so there's not a whole lot of things that can live there.

So when we harvest a bog, um, we have to do like drainage. We have to drain it to remove all the water, and the top layers is what we call the most fibrous fibers, and that is what is mainly used in a growing media for a professional use. When we go down deeper in the bog, so let's say if we go down, I don't know, three or four feet down into the bog, or one meter down or two meters, all depending on so many other factors, uh, but that's where you'll see that the fiber is less—is finer or will break down a little bit more.

So that's when you get into the grades of peat moss that you'll find more in retail—what they will call black earth. It's not really earth; it's actually—it’s decomposed sphagnum.

Interesting!

Yeah, so, uh, so it's not true earth. Well, anyways, 99% out of what's, you know, maybe if you have a landscaper and he has access to some soil, then maybe that’s true, but what you buy in bags, anyways, it's peat moss.

So the greater the decomposition is in the bottom of what is harvested, and the top layers, it's what's really fibrous, and that's what we put into the professional media because that will hold water real fast but will release water real fast.

As you go down, it'll hold water and not—but not as fast and will not release as fast the water. So that's basically the difference—it's really the level of decomposition that has been going on in the bog prior to we started to harvest it.

Interesting! So would you say generally there's a lot more of the retail—like if you were to harvest the average bog, is there a lot more of the retail peat that's taken out compared to the more fibrous peat moss in, like, as a whole of the bog?

No, because we don't—we know—we'll only harvest according to the demand of the market, so we're not going to—and also like the Canadian sphagnum peat moss industry as a whole, so all producers of growing media with peat moss, we have a principle where we don't want to dig where there's nothing left.

So, and we want to restore that environment once we're finished harvesting the peat, so we don't want to just dig up to dig up, you know? We want to make sure that we leave the environment where it will naturally—because we do bog restoration and where we introduce living sphagnum on top of an environment that has been harvested, and it normally takes off after a couple of years; the bog looks almost like it was before.

But yeah, there has been some activity in there, but we can make a bog become alive again by introducing living sphagnum.

Yeah, I think a lot of people, um, to a certain degree, even myself, understand that it takes like a very long time to restore a bog when it's harvested. Are we, as a whole, like the amount of peat moss we're using, are we, um, are we eventually gonna run out of peat moss at the way we're consuming it? Do you know anything about the like that side of the thing?

Yeah, yeah, no, no, I don't think we'll run out. There are a lot of really—there are a lot of bogs in Canada; they're not all accessible. I think that we're presently using 0.1% of all the bogs in Canada for harvesting peat moss, so it's a really small percentage that are being harvested.

Oh, wow!

Uh, so we're not like in—I know like in Europe there’s maybe—you heard about peat being a problem, and things like that. Um, that's more because in Europe, they use it for a lot of other things, not just horticulture; they use it for—to generate—for heat houses with it and all that. So, um, and transform it into some kind of like a fuel.

Here, we only use it for horticulture for sure.

Yeah, no, that's really interesting to know because, like, you know, I feel that even myself I had a misconception that, like, you know, we're going to—at some point, like, kind of like oil, we're eventually going to run out of peat moss. But if we're using, you said 0.1 or 0.11%...

Yeah, yeah, there’s—a Canadian sphagnum peat moss industry has a web page; it has really a lot of information to kind of explain things. And it's not just one company; it's a—it represents the industry. Uh, but it does give true facts, and there's really a lot of research being done on that, so it's, um, it's documented facts; it's not just, uh, greenwashing and things like that.

There's a lot of facts about the peat moss, and, uh, yeah, I think that's helpful for anyone that wants to check it out, 'cause like there's… yeah, there’s—you know, I've experienced a lot of misinformation just over the years, and like someone says something, then everyone believes it, sort of thing.

So I think it's important for people to just kind of, you know, do some further digging if they are concerned about the use of peat in the long run from a sustainability perspective.

Um, so yeah, I just encourage people to do research on that to, you know, make your own educated opinion on that kind of thing.

Yeah! Um, so another thing that a lot of people ask about is storing, um, the bales of ProMix, whether it's HP or MP, um, or BX. Do you have any like specific recommendations for people to, um, to like how they should store the product, how long it'll last stored in the bales?

Uh, yeah, well, overall, um, I would say the peat moss itself can be stored for a long time. Uh, where you'll run into some changes in the product is with the starter charge because we do put a starter charge in it, and we do put, uh, what we call a wetting agent or surfactant, and, uh, some of the starter charge, um, in heated areas.

So let's say when it goes up to 20, 30 degrees, some of that starter charge will be biodegraded by the natural microorganisms in the peat moss. And the same thing with the wetting agent, um, if it's stored at minus 20, like we're getting these days here in January, um, you know, the product that remains pretty well intact.

It's just if it has been stored for many, many months at 20, 30 degrees Celsius, some of the nutrition will change a bit. Some of the calcitic lime, maybe the pH will go up a bit, because we do have to put limestone in the peat moss to adjust the pH so it's not too acidic for plants.

And, uh, yeah, and the wetting agent, after one year, I would say it's starting to show signs of losing its wetting capacity. So, yeah, I would say if you could keep it stored out of the sun, um, that would be the best way to have a longer preservation, I would say, of the wetting agent and some of that.

That's helpful! Yeah, I would guess most growers don't keep product that long, but it’s helpful to know, like, if they can keep it out of the sun as much as they can.

And, uh, that it's—it's not like—like, there are natural bacteria in these bogs, and that will grow when it’s relatively dry. Um, that—that's correct, yeah?

Well, there are some bacteria, but there are some, oh, let’s say mold. So these are saprophytic; these are not dangerous. They can even be beneficial, um, yeah. And they can, uh, all depending on the humidity of the peat, you know, the temperature, all these factors combined, you can have a little bit more some years than other years, and these will kind of eat up some of that nitrogen that you're adding in there, um, which will cause that— is the biodegradation caused by the natural microbes that come with the peat.

I think where it comes that the idea that it’s sterile is that there's no—there are no plant pathogens; there are no, um—like in regular soil where you can have plant—like in agriculture soil where you can have plant pathogens, you can have nematodes and things like—you don't have any of those pathogenic forms in peat moss.

Yeah, that's—that's a good distinction, um, because yeah, like I've never had peat moss be contaminated with pythium or, you know, things like that. It's been quite incredible; like it usually comes from the seed or if you had compost or things like that. That's where it usually comes from.

It's actually a unique benefit of peat is that it's in such an acidic environment where it's grown that most of the typical plant pathogens like just don't survive or don't live in that environment. So it gives a unique opportunity for growers starting seedlings to not have to worry about, you know, all the wide array of potential plant pathogens that can come in from compost, worm castings, topsoil, all that kind of stuff.

True!

Um, and another question I've gotten quite a few times now with mostly new growers, but sometimes there's like a bit of, like, what you'll see is like mold on the MP. I've noticed like a little bit of, like, orange mold that will form where the plastic meets the, um, the bale itself, the compressed bale.

My understanding is that it's completely not harmful at all, but I just wanted to get your take on, you know, what that is and where it kind of comes from.

Yeah, that's one of the different molds that come naturally with the peat moss, and again, the storage conditions. Sometimes there's a bit of humidity between the plastic and the peat, and there's like a perfect site there for them to grow.

No, they're not—they're not, uh, harmful to plants; can be a bit of a nuisance, I would say. Just remove that little crust and throw it away. But I know some people, um, you know, they still have to do the good practices: don't compact your growing media when you're filling up pots, um, because the growing media has to breathe.

So, yes, there are some of these natural-occurring ones, but if the plants are too compact, if they're getting too much water, you can get things growing on the surface. Sometimes it’s algae, sometimes it can be mold. So the idea is to really space out the watering, only water when you need, and especially don't compact, because these natural occurring—algae is not so much a problem; algae comes with the greenhouse and the water.

But some of these molds can also grow on the top of the pots when you're growing, so you have to, you know, be sure you let it dry down enough. That's really important.

Yeah, for sure! When there's moisture between the plastic and the bale, and I've never ever, like, cut off or not used that area; you just mix it in. And then most of those spores will just die or not be able to thrive because they're—you just disturb their environment.

And again, they're not harmful to the plants at all, so just something for people that are new in the industry that have seen that and might be worried about it. It's like, from my opinion, it seems like your opinion as well, it's not something to really be concerned about.

No, normally once exposed to air that will disappear anyways.

Yeah, exactly!

Um, now last question before we get into the part I'm most excited about is, um, what—like I've had people in, you know, some states say, “Hey, they have troubles finding like ProMix HP,” so I was just curious on where you guys sell, uh, the ProMix line of the commercial grade of products in North America and where you don't sell it. Just I think it'll help, uh, people understand, you know, where they can access this product.

Well, I think, uh, any major distribution in Canada, um, or in the U.S., big horticultural supply distributor, they will have it. Um, maybe there's some that don't, but they'll—uh, they can phone us on our—at our customer service and we'll tell them where they can find it.

But I would say the major distribution, like in Ontario and Quebec, they all have, yeah.

Okay, and then, so if someone's in like, uh, you know, the Western U.S., they can still get—like, you guys still will sell to distributors in that area, correct?

Okay, yeah, we sell even to Mexico, so.

Okay, that's good to know!

Yeah, yeah, that's helpful. Okay, so your product is available everywhere; it's just a matter of if a distributor carries it in the local area, sort of thing?

Yeah, well, normally the bigger ones, I don't know about all the little co-ops and all that; maybe they don’t, but, um, but you know, I'm not saying 100%, but the major ones, you know, like in the U.S., you've got big names there like Griffin, and, and in Canada you've got a Terrace and plant products. And these are all, uh, nutrient west, so there's a lot there that, yeah.

Yeah, I believe H Farm is probably the biggest one in the U.S., especially for the, you know, the micin industry. A lot when they're starting out, they're buying from hydroponic stores, so a lot of them will can have access to the product from, um, from Hydrofarm. Now if a grower wants to buy direct from ProMix, is that an option for growers?

Well, it's—there's always an option; it's just that we don't deliver pallet quantities, so—and I think it's better for the grower to go through distribution. He's not going to get it less; he won't pay less if he goes direct with us, and we can't really service very well a couple of pallet customers.

So I would say they're better—they're going to be a lot better serviced with our distribution channel for sure.

For sure! Yeah, it seems like most of the soil companies like to make it economical to ship; it has to be by the truckload, which is like a lot of soil.

Yeah!

Yeah, like I would have loved to be able to purchase, um, truckloads, but in my scenario with Living Earth Farm, we just didn't have storage space. Like, we would go through soil pretty fast, but, um, we just didn't have space to store it, so we couldn't, like—we didn't have the ability to store, like, you know, 8, 12 of just like, because we had a lot of different things we needed to store of just like the soil itself or the peat moss.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, but no, yeah, like I think that's helpful for people to just know, um, that going through distributors is will be the most economical way to get the ProMix line of products.

Now this is the part I'm really excited about, um, which is, uh, the additives because this is something that you specialize in. You actually, you know, like you said, you studied your Master’s in mycorrhizal additives.

So, um, the ProMix products, there's a few different additives, including mycorrhiza, bio-stimulants, and biofungicides. So I'd love to hear more on these additives and their, you know, their benefits for, um, you know, greenhouse growers or micin growers.

Okay, okay! Well, we'll start with mycorrhiza. Mycorrhiza, there's many types of mycorrhiza, but I'll just concentrate on the mycorrhiza for herbaceous type of plants or for microgreens or for tomatoes, cucumbers, uh, you know, that type of plant.

Um, so this is a—it’s a fungus, and it—it really—we can put it into the media—feed it into the growing media so that when the first roots start to grow, they come in contact with these spores, and it colonizes the roots.

And when the plant is getting everything it needs, you know, conditions are ideal, uh, you know, you maybe not see, oh, is there something, you know. Is this mycorrhiza really—is this stuff really working? The fact of adding the mycorrhiza is that you're increasing your rooting capacity to absorb nutrients.

That's one of the benefits, but also you're occupying a part of the soil. So you've got access to water; you have—you help it helps the plants also manage water stress, you know, and wilting points and things like that. So, the advantages are really very long, but I'll just kind of keep it down to a couple ones.

Um, nutrients like nutrients that are non-mobile, like phosphorus, for example, that are non-mobile in the soil, uh, it will help in picking up these nutrients and some of the minor elements. It does help with resistance to water stress, heat stress, um, and so the thing is that when the plants are growing in ideal conditions in the greenhouse, uh, that’s great. But the minute you bring it outside or you bring it to an environment—the—the real world, uh, where, uh, you'll have more stress and all that, that's where the fact of having those mycorrhiza in the root systems will really make the plant a lot stronger, healthier, and more resistant.

Um, when we’re—for example, um, for sprouts or really short time plants in two, three weeks, you may not really see the benefit of adding mycorrhiza for really, really short plant cycles.

Uh, anything over four or five weeks, that lettuce, for example, where there might be some, I don't know, cold weather or stressful weather in the greenhouse, then the mycorrhiza can have a benefit.

Um, and this mycorrhiza is good with almost everything except a couple of plants like that need a specific type of mycorrhiza, like orchids and blueberry plants, as you know, the more acid-loving plants and forest trees like balsam fir and things like that.

They need a different type of mycorrhiza.

Yeah, so it's something that's very general that is really there for the plant.

Um, so you don't need to fertilize as much. You don't—you can really cut back on that, and, um, it's not, you know, if you put it in the desert and you're not giving it any water, I mean, look, you know, we have to be realistic, yeah? But it really reduces stress.

Okay. So that's in—there's a lot of research that's been done on mycorrhiza and in all sorts of applications. Mycorrhiza have been present on the very first plants that were growing on land when, you know, when you go back into the evolution of plants on Earth.

So it's something that plants have really—they need. You know, you go into any forest soils, you've got mycorrhiza on your trees, on your plants. It's only when you go into agricultural soils where there's a lot of, uh, you know, you disrupt the soil, you turn the soil and all that, and that's what really kind of creates, um, less mycorrhiza or less mycorrhiza available for plants.

So it’s in the very intense type of growing conditions where the mycorrhiza will be less available to plants, and in growing media, there's no naturally occurring mycorrhiza, so you—that's why we have to add it to the plants.

Yeah, no, I think that's, um, that's helpful to know because, um, my understanding was that microgreens wouldn't really benefit, and I think you'd confirm that.

But there's a lot of growers that grow edible flowers that are much longer period of time, um, and if you don't—like, you know, as a plant gets bigger in a small pot, like, it's more chance of it being underwatered. So having the mycorrhiza will help prevent that stress from affecting the growth of the plant and same thing with nutrient absorption.

So I think there is an application for the mycorrhiza for— for more long-term crops, like you said. And there's really a lot, but if I—you know, just to draw—I just want to kind of limit to it, uh, because it does help with, um, you know, let's say different secondary metabolites to produce secondary metabolites and things like that.

It’ll increase—it increases flowering; it can, it can—oh interesting!

Yeah, there's a lot of, uh, benefits, uh, but again, you know, you have to make it fit into your growing conditions, and as long as it’s more than two, three weeks, I'd say four weeks, I think that's where it can be—you can see the benefit.

But it won't harm anything if you do use it.

Yeah, exactly! And you don't—so there's never a negative effect.

Yeah, if anything, it would take up more of the soil space that would prevent bad bacteria or bad types of fungus to take over.

Yeah, yeah, true!

Yeah. Now, when we get—when we talk about bio-stimulants and biofungicides in our—in the ProMix products, um, the reason why we've got—is the same organism; it's just that in the U.S., it's labeled biofungicide because it's registered with the EPA, the Environmental Protection Agency.

In Canada, um, the equivalent would be, uh, PMRA, the plant protection, uh, agency. But if you do that—and we have registered our—because, uhm, it's a bacteria. This bio-stimulant or the biofungicide in the U.S., yeah, and what is the benefits?

Yes, it does have something interesting that the mycorrhiza doesn't have is that it's an immediate effect. So you start to grow your plant, it's—it's immediate the effect; it's, you know, within—I don't know—24 hours or something like that, the effect is there for the plant.

Um, and what it can do, it helps with—it does help with certain nutrients absorption, and it also creates a biofilm all around the roots, and that is like a protection against, um, any little, uh, plant pathogen or thing like that in the soil.

But officially here in Canada, we can't claim for that because it's not registered as that, but in the U.S., we have seen on many occasions a reduction of root rotting diseases, for example, like, uh, fusarium, pythium, rhizoctonia, and we've also noticed—and we can't claim that here in Canada—a reduction of certain insects like fungus gnats, uhm, on those yellow sticky cards, you know, that you put in the greenhouses.

When you use this bacteria with the mycorrhiza, for—for example, you get reduction of, uh, fungus gnat populations. It’s not 100% perfect, but it—it will contribute to reducing those fungus gnat populations.

Yeah, wow, that's incredible!

Yeah, I didn't know those because I think those two are really big benefits for microgreens growers because a lot of growers deal with—with— with pythium is the most common challenge that people have. And I have my own, you know, ways to reduce it, including using vermiculite, which is kind of like on top of the seed, works really well.

But for people that were really struggling, that might be a great option. And then I know a few farms that have a ton of fungus gnat issues because they're growing a lot of longer-term crops, um, in—in like edible flowers and longer-term microgreens.

So having something that comes already in the soil ready to go would be an easy way for them to reduce those populations.

Yeah, that—that those are like phenomenal benefits! Now is the—are the products that—because I haven't seen them as commonly available—is that something that like is— is the distributors can can access if they wanted to?

Yes, it's available, yeah.

Okay, it’s not our—because it'll often come in in seeding mixes, but it does come also in VX, in HP. It's with the mycorrhiza, so they'll add the bacteria with to the mycorrhiza, but in the seeding mixes, it will be just just the bacteria alone, so either the bio-stimulant or the biofungicide in the U.S.

Yeah, and is— is there any difference in the shelf life of the product if it has that in it?

No, same thing.

Okay, awesome!

Yeah, actually, the bacteria is very, very resistant to over—for over a year, it's still very, very—very good.

Yeah, it’s kind of interesting. It’s like the—it’s like a similar concept for the soil as like taking a probiotic because basilis is also like I know there's tons and tons of varieties of basilis, right?

It's the same kind of concept where, you know, you take a probiotic; it provides your immune system support to protect against, you know, the COVID virus and, you know, colds and flu and other sort of potential pathogens. And it’s really cool to see like the same concept where it will—it'll literally form around the roots, and protect the roots from, you know, plant pathogens.

I think that's like, you know, a really cool kind of natural way without using pesticides and other sort of chemicals to, um, to improve the quality of the soil for—for the plants and for the growers that are growing them.

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome!

There is a—yeah, there is a similarity there.

Yeah, yeah, I wish—I wish we had more time to go deeper into, um, into all that, that kind of stuff because I'm sure we could probably talk for an hour on just that alone.

Um, but I'm just curious if there's any, like, you know, new or exciting R&D projects that either you're working on or your team is working on that you're able to share with our listeners if there's, you know, because it seems like you guys always have new products on the go.

Well, we have—well, there's a lot of, um, there's always, you know, research on new organisms, new microorganisms that we could use.

Um, like, there's one that's come out; uh, it's not available in growing media yet, but, uh, we sell it alone for the the family of, like, canola family, you know, that doesn't form any mycorrhiza. So, we've come up with an organism that can help that family, uh, have access to nutrients and things like that in—in the soil.

So that—that's something that's—that's coming out, just alone—not in a growing media yet. And we're continuing to look at different other organisms that can help.

Um, we do a lot of research with our research partners, university partners on sustainability, you know, uh, peat moss sustainability. That's a big, um, a big thing that, uh, you know, we want to be better prepared, you know, to do a good job of harvesting peat moss, and to minimize, uh, you know, CO2 emissions and—and things like that. That's a big thing.

And, and in products, well, you know, we would—you know, we are looking at substitute fibers to peat moss because we are aware that it is, um, you know, you know, some people might feel that you know, peat moss is a—it is a carbon emitting activity.

So, you know, could we find something else that has less impact? But that is, um, you know, nothing to come out in the next…. it's a hard problem to solve.

Yeah, for sure!

Well, we use, you know, we do use cocoa fibers, um, but, which is, uh, which is good, but we are looking at other things as well. And also, you know, to in the, uh, for the, um, organic growing media, you know, different things that can be better this then try to find a better formulation or things like that for the organic growers.

Yeah, yeah, that's, um, that would be a fun job but a very challenging job because like I just think about, as an example, in the plastics industry, um, like we use so much plastic to to package our products, and from my research, the corn-based plastic isn't really a— you know, a good long-term solution.

Um, and it's, you know, it’s a big problem to solve to try to find an alternative that works like plastic because, you know, plastic is such an effective, um, you know, material for for packaging. And it's the same thing, like to find a good substitute for for peat moss and/or coconut coir, that’s a—that's a big challenge.

That's, um…

Yeah, so, but it's cool that you guys are are researching that and trying to find alternatives because I think, um, you know, it’s always good to be doing that kind of research.

Um, I love to kind of hear what your favorite part of your job is. Um, you know, it sounds like you've been doing it for a long time and I love to kind of hear like what is, you know, what really brings you joy in the work you do.

Uh, well, I—well, working with the growers I think is really, um, enriching. It’s really interesting. Um, I think they're incredible, you know, to run a business and—and—and grow the plants and manage all that. I think that's really interesting, and it's—and it's interesting to work with them.

But I think also what's good is that there’s always a lot to learn. Um, you know, so you don't feel as if, oh, you know, it's boring. You know, there's always something new that's coming up and how you can integrate that and how you can understand things better.

So I think there's a lot of, uh, there's always a possibility to learn, and I think that's really positive. Um, you know, it's not because I've been around a long time that I know a lot. Yeah, I've got experience, but I need to feel that I'm learning, you know, for sure!

So, so that's another good part of it, and, um, yeah, and, and also this company, you know, there's like a lot of, you know, good ideas. So I keep feeling as if I'm, uh, yeah—adapting, adapting to new ways of thinking is really good, and I think that makes you, you know, more open-minded and so as a person.

And, yeah, I find it's, uh, that—yeah, that’s like more maybe more personal sides of things, uh, that I like working about it. But I think, um, the— the industry as a whole that I'm able to— to follow it and go to conferences and things like that to continue to learn, I think that's one of the good, good parts of this job.

Of my job, anyways!

Yeah, I know, like, I would—like it sounds like a a really rewarding and and fun job to do, and, and it's great that you can continuously learn, um, in a path like that.

I think that's, you know, so important to always be like, you know, having challenges and and learning and, um, you know, it brings a lot of—at least for me, a lot of satisfaction in the work I've done with the farm and what I'm doing now with consulting, is being able to like, you know, have challenges that, you know, push my understanding and learn.

And that's, you know, part of the reason this podcast—like I learned a lot on this episode, and I'm sure a lot of growers, you know, will learn a lot as well.

And I think it's—it’s really valuable to always be in that mindset of always wanting to learn.

Yeah, I hope to plan to do that for the rest of my life, whether I'm working or not, just always want to learn and grow as a person. And, and it's great that you see that in your job, and you get to experience that on a daily basis.

Yeah, yeah, it is!

Yeah, awesome! Um, so yeah, last question, uh, if I ask this to everyone, whether they're farmers or, you know, anything else, is that if you can go back in time to when you started working at Premier and meet the younger version of yourself, what advice would you give the younger Susan to set them up for success?

Oh, that's a tough one! Um, what could I—I would give an advice—maybe be patient. Patience is, um, yeah—it is good. Sometimes, you know, when we're starting, you know, we want to, you know, advance, and, um, and sometimes, uh, it's maybe—maybe good just to step back a bit and—and not just run into things.

Um, some people are more patient than others, but I—I think it’s, yeah, it’s worth it to take time to, uh, maybe also know what has been done before. And instead of doing it all over again, um, a lot of times, because it was done a long time ago, people think it's not so good, but sometimes there's some good things that were done in maybe, you know, 20, 25 years ago. But if you never ask, you won't know what was done and, uh, what was positive and what was negative, uh, out of that.

That's great! I think that's—that's super helpful. Like, it's a good point, like you know, in history, history repeats itself. And like, education, if there's something that someone learns, but there's no, as an example, study published, then no one knows that that information is there.

So sometimes going back in history and seeing what was already done can help you advance in whatever it is that you're doing, like, you know?

Yeah!

So I think that’s—that's great. And yeah, patience is is something that, um, that I think all of us have, uh, you know, to learn over time.

From when we're a kid and we have the least amount of patience to, as time goes on, we learn to, um, to be more patient with—with things and let things kind of go as they—their, you know, the natural flow of things in—in terms of, you know, time because, yeah, like I'm always, I’m still that way where I want things to move faster than than they are.

Um, but it takes it away from like enjoying what you're doing right now. So it's, you know, for me a practice in—and learning that kind of patience.

Yeah!

I don't know, it’s patience or it’s, uh, maybe, uh, you know, don’t talk too fast, you know? Just, you know, when I was a kid, they always tell me, you know, make it go through your head a couple of times and see if is that really the right way, right way to ask you things—are, you know?

Yeah, yeah, no, for sure!

Awesome! This has been a really great interview. I learned a lot, and I know the listeners will as well. So if anyone wants to connect, uh, with you or learn more about Premier, where can they find, uh, you guys online?

Well, you can, uh, go to our website, which is pthhorticulture.com, and if you go to, uh, grower services, you can see who grower services rep in your area.

Awesome! Thanks so much for coming on, Susan. It’s been great having you here, and, uh, yeah, thanks so much!

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