Transcription
Presentation by quoting Shik Tamim: "The goals of development can be achieved only through fighting corruption and based on the government and law." I would love for the successful organization of this forum. Thank you very much indeed. [Applause]
Thank you very much indeed, Mr. San. Now, from the world of Russian energy to the world of Russian diplomacy, or to be a little more accurate, to the world of diplomatic energy, our next session is a highly anticipated newsmaker interview with the world's longest-serving foreign minister. He has been in his post for the past 20 years, previously having served an entire decade as his government's top diplomat at the United Nations. He is well known to everyone, highly admired by friends and foes alike. It is a great pleasure for us to have him with us here today in person at the Doha Forum. Please welcome His Excellency Sergey Lavrov, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation. Please welcome as well my colleague from Al Jazeera, its diplomatic editor, James Bas, who will have the opportunity to interview Mr. Lavrov yet again. So, round two in person this time, and James, maybe you'll be able to get back at the minister. Welcome to you both.
[Music]
My head, the microphone fell off. I'm sorry, Mr. Minister, it doesn't work. Thank you once again for speaking to me. This interview is also going to be broadcast on Al Jazeera. Sergey Lavrov, Foreign Minister of the Russian Federation, thank you for talking to Al Jazeera.
With Syria, those dramatic developments that seem to be reshaping the political map of Syria, I'd like your reaction to things that have happened in the last 10 days.
I have repeatedly stated it's inadmissible to allow the terrorists in violation of agreements which exist, starting with the UN Security Council resolution 2254, which strongly reiterated the sovereignty, territorial integrity, and unity of the Syrian Arab Republic. By terrorists, to disturb the life of Syrians, and which called for direct dialogue between the government and the opposition.
In 2018 and 2020, specifically, two agreements were signed solidifying the common resolve not to allow the rule in Idlib to be thrown out of Idlib, and these agreements have not been implemented. Now they are grossly violated. I watched your channel this morning, and the coverage is very specific. I would say the opposition groups were taking new... this is the theme, which I would say is not very journalistically clean.
Well, there are more than one group, and clearly, Hay'at Tahrir al-Sham (HTS) is an opposition group in opposition to the government in Damascus. It seems a pretty clear description of what they do.
You've been having meetings.
One second, one second. I understand that you defend your bosses who called the shots in Al Jazeera, but could honest journalism provide for a statement like HTS listed as a group by the United Nations Security Council and the United States, by the way, and opposition groups who are not listed? I have been reporting on this for the last couple of weeks, and we are saying that very repeatedly.
But let me get back to what has been going on in terms of the diplomacy. I understand that you've had a meeting with your Turkish and Iranian colleagues here in Doha. Have you reached any agreements?
Yeah, we strongly reiterated territorial integrity, sovereignty, and unity of the Syrian Arab Republic. We stated all of us that we want the resolution 2254 to be fully implemented, and for this purpose, we called for the dialogue between the government and legitimate opposition as provided in that resolution. The main thing is not to say something new; the main thing is to implement everything to which you sign up.
But that resolution 2254, which you... it was a Security Council resolution at the foreign minister level. I remember in 2015, and you were there in Russia's seat. That talks about a new constitution and free and fair elections, and yet the whole... well, it's still a bit less time passed after the adoption of this resolution since the resolutions promising a Palestinian state were adopted. So everything is relative, if you can understand. Nobody is perfect, as the old American movie says, and everything is relative.
Have you spoken to your Syrian counterpart in recent hours? How worried are they about the situation? They've lost a lot of territory.
Well, we are not in the business of checking who is worried and to what extent. We stop bloodshed and make justice prevail. In this particular case, justice is resolution 2254. The other authors of this resolution, including the United States, confirmed to us that they continue supporting this process as described in that resolution, and we hope that promises and assurances would materialize soon.
How much of a blow is it to Russia that so much territory has been lost in such a short period of time? Because Russia and the Soviet Union before it has been such a big backer of Syria. How much of a blow is it, and will you intervene further militarily, not just diplomatically?
Our country has been a very big backer not only of Syria but also of Iraq and Libya. It is not our fault that all the resolutions which were adopted on the Middle East issues, some of them were not adopted. For example, Iraq was bombed out of statehood without any discussion in the Security Council. It is not our fault that the biggest trend of the modern world, namely the fight against those who want to keep hegemony, would like to live in a free world where the United Nations demands respect for the sovereign equality of states, is really implemented, be it BRICS, be it Shanghai Cooperation, be it Gulf Cooperation Council, ASEAN, and many others.
So the fight of these two worlds, one phasing out and another one emerging, is not going without clashes and conflicts, which were aggressive adventures launched by the US and its allies in Iraq, Libya, and Palestine. The behavior of the United States on what is going on in Palestine is absolutely unacceptable. Invading Syria, all this is the repetition of the old, very old habit to create some murky waters.
The Middle East and Europe is not enough already. The NATO under the United States command pronounced last year at the summit that the security in Euro-Atlantic is indivisible from the security in the Indo-Pacific region. So they already eye the entire Eurasian continent, including the South China Sea, the Strait of Taiwan, and the Korean Peninsula. They are creating NATO-like military works; NATO infrastructure is being promoted to the region. This is a reflection of attempts not to allow hegemony to phase out, but this is a fight against history.
So yes, we are very much sorry for the Syrian people who became a subject of another geopolitical experiment. We are absolutely convinced of the inadmissibility to use terrorists to achieve goals, as it is being done now with the organization of this offensive from the Idlib de-escalation area.
But you know what we do in the world? Maybe the mentality is different. The Americans, for them, I know them very well, for them what is important is how they are perceived, and they always want to be perceived as number one. When they tell something, everybody must say, "Yes, sir," whatever Uncle Sam decides. In our case, it's not about being concerned with the impression we make on the people. We do things in which we believe, and if we could help since 2015 to keep the Syrian state apart, if we could organize the process with Iranian and Turkish colleagues, which is called the Astana process, and we met today, as you mentioned, this in itself was a very helpful process.
Nothing goes smoothly in world diplomacy, but the events which we're witnessing today are clearly geared to undermine everything we have been doing during those years. We are sorry not for the image which people see in the person of the Russian Federation or me personally, but we are very concerned with the fate of the Syrian people. We don't want them to follow the fate of Iraqis, Libyans, and other nations who were disturbed by the people desiring to keep domination.
The Russian Embassy in Damascus is now urging Russian nationals to leave Syria. Does that mean that you believe that Assad may not be able to cling on to power? And if that is the case, are you going to try and save him this time?
Well, the Western embassies in Kyiv some time ago suggested for their nationals to leave. The embassies in South Korea are doing the same. It's a diplomatic job. I understand that you need some sensation in your interview. It's a diplomatic job for you as journalists to care about facts. I have, among other things, to care about my compatriots.
Understood, but the sensation surely is the fact that so much of the territory of Syria has been lost in such a short period of time. Do you think militarily Russia helps the Syrian Army?
With the Air Force, which is based... and we held the Syrian Army to counter the attacks of terrorists.
What is the forecast?
I cannot guess. We're not in the business of guessing. We agreed today with Iran and Turkey to issue a strong call, which I described, and we would be doing some specific steps to make sure that this call is heeded.
You say that Russia has been helping the Syrian military; it clearly has. Are you not frustrated then that it seems in many cases the Syrian military just ran away? It's a bit like when the Taliban took over Afghanistan in 2021, is it not?
Well, the Americans have been leaving Afghanistan even more shamefully. I think, you know, if you want me to try to give my assessment of who behaves how and how this is perceived outside, then this is your right. You are interviewing me, and I think I gave my advice.
It seems, however, that you are doing everything to avoid coming to Ukraine.
We'll come to Ukraine, but I definitely want to talk about the issues in the Middle East first.
And I want to come back to the UN blacklist, but their leader, Galani, is now projecting that they are welcome. Do you see if he's telling the truth?
Well, first of all, he is projecting this position. As far as I checked with the Americans, whether he's still on the US terrorist list, in addition to the Security Council terrorist list, already something is... already something.
As for the promises he's spreading, I never... you know, challenge the English proverb: the proof of the pudding is in the eating. But there are other cases, and there's one obvious one: the Taliban were on a blacklist; they were allied to Al-Qaeda, and now in Afghanistan, Russia deals with the Taliban. Things change. We never withdrew our embassy from Kabul. The embassy was staying there throughout the American and Coalition occupation, throughout their shameful departure.
Whenever we withdrew the embassy, the Taliban, by the way, they are not as an organization on the UN terrorist list. Several leaders of the Taliban are on the personal terrorist list, but I understand what you mean. You are basically saying that life is more interesting and more complicated than resolutions and statements and claims and promises.
We'll see how it works. If the opposition, which was mentioned in the resolution 2254, is a responsible opposition, if they care about their country, then they would not allow for this operation to continue. They participate in hostilities as well, and today's call from Iran, Turkey, and Russia should be heard by everybody who is on the ground in Syria.
And on the ground in Syria right now, the focus is the battle for homes. If Homs is taken, then the territory controlled by Assad will be divided in two, and on one side of that will be your big naval base that you were given for 49 years, a sovereign naval base, and also your large air base in Latakia. Is Russia worried about those? Apparently, some analysts say there have been satellite images of Russian vessels already leaving your Tartus naval base.
Well, there is a naval exercise in the Mediterranean. Maybe your satellite images took this for something different. We are... we have... we're lost in Syria. We are so desperate. If this is what you need, let's continue. But my point is I'm not in the business of guessing what is going to happen. We are trying to do everything not to allow terrorists to prevail, even if they say that they are no longer terrorists.
What about the role of Turkey? You met with a Turkish foreign minister here in Doha. Do you think they are controlling the situation or just want to keep on top of the situation?
They are a very influential actor in Syria, and I think you know this. They are concerned with the security of their border with Syria. We discussed it in the Astana format and in the context of Astana plus Syria discussions on normalizing relations between Turkey and Damascus. There are a series of ideas which we want to put into practice to keep Syria territorially integral and united while ensuring security of the border, which has been porous for terrorist attacks on the territory of Turkey.
An agreement of 1986, I think, is an example of how this can be addressed. I have... between Syria and Turkey must be normalized, and we will be doing anything to be helpful.
To finish on Syria, please, Mr. Foreign Minister, you keep mentioning resolution 2254. If ever it got to the stage of the ultimate part of that resolution, free and fair elections, hand on heart, you cannot believe, can you, that the Assad family, the Assad dynasty that's run this country for 54 years, has run it throughout this war when half a million people have died, that they would be elected in free or fair elections?
[Applause]
To get to this point, you said yourself that this is a crowning paragraph of the resolution. Before that, you need to implement what comes before it, including sovereignty and territorial integrity to be respected. The Americans' invasion and occupation of the east of Syria, supporting Kurdish separatists, including on the lands which historically belong to Arab tribes, exploiting oil and food resources, selling them in the world market, and the ISIL building there...
Do you think it is not to Gaza over 45,000 people? You know, back in June, the 10th of June, 14 members of the ISIL...
Is there any valid reason in Russia's view, almost six months later, why there is no ceasefire in place now?
Because this was a resolution of the quality which we could not support. We did not veto it only because all our Arab friends, including Palestinians, did not want us to. They wanted to give it a try. It mentioned a Biden plan, and the Americans were persuading us during the meeting of the Security Council that this Biden plan is supported by Netanyahu. We asked to circulate the Biden's plan. They said, "No, no, no, it's not necessary. Trust us." Trust me, like Schwarzenegger used to say.
So we abstained, and it turned out that the plan does not exist, that Israelis are not committed to anything. So this plan turned out to be one of the rules on which the world order must be based: rules-based world order, nothing specific. So with a resolution intended not to be implemented, how can we expect that it would...
Israel has now killed...
No applause. Israel has now killed many of Hamas's commanders. Do you think it has any real reason to continue fighting, or is it just causing carnage, death, and destruction deliberately of Palestinians?
Well, we strongly condemned the terrorist attack on the 7th of October last year, but at the same time, we strongly condemn the way Israel reacted, basically by starting a collective punishment of the Palestinians. I discussed with some Israeli colleagues this issue, and well, not even in the... I think publicly either the minister of defense or some other official from the cabinet, when asked why you don't take measures to prevent the damage to civilians, peaceful citizens, he said there are no peaceful citizens there in Gaza. As of the age of three, they are all terrorists.
With this philosophy, when Antonio Guterres condemned the terrorist attack and then said, "But it did not happen in a vacuum," you remember what the Israeli reaction was? The former ambassador demanded that Guterres resign. Eventually, he was declared persona non grata. Unbelievable.
I don't think Israelis are doing good for their own interests because this notion that they are terrorists when they reach the age of three... well, this is, of course, a figure of speech, but for almost 80 years, generation after generation is growing in the situation of occupation and the situation of blame. Of course, the parents and the teachers at school, people, and what happened in 1948.
So unless a Palestinian state is created, which as a Palestinian state is created, extremism would be breeding and breeding and breeding in the region. There is no doubt. Just to say that we will exterminate all Hamas members, I don't think it's a serious pledge.
Let's move to Ukraine. There are lots and lots of proposals emerging. Can I put to you President Zelensky's latest proposal? Because it seems to the conflict while still claiming all of the territory that he had before, but with a security guarantee, rather like the East Germany-West Germany situation, with Western Ukraine being brought under a NATO umbrella. What do you make of that? Is that in any way acceptable to Russia?
Some time ago, I stopped following what Zelensky says. He can change his position from A to Z overnight, depending on how he feels at this particular moment. It is not about the Korean option, the German option, or any other option, which he says must be based without any alternative on the Ukrainian terms. Fine, then he should draw a map and see how he can accommodate himself and his fantasies.
Many initiatives have been put forward, including this infamous and stupid peace formula by Zelensky, which says Russia must withdraw to 1991 borders. Putin and myself, by the way, must go to the tribunal. Russia must pay compensation. Russia must reduce the size of its weaponry close to the Ukrainian border, and so on and so forth.
But there are plans not coming from somebody who is inadequate, but from people who would like to help and who are motivated by goodwill, like China and Brazil, who moved the plan which was subject to discussion in the margins of the General Assembly last September. South Africans were circulating some ideas. The League of Arab States visited Moscow a couple of times. Members of the working group they created, the Contact Group they created on Ukraine, none of the initiatives were... they all dictated by goodwill, no doubt. We don't dispute that, but none of them mentions what President Xi Jinping of China proclaimed in his Global Security Initiative, which he made public, I think, in February 2023.
Not about Ukraine; it's a generic initiative on the principles which you must apply when you address any conflict. One of the principles says address and eliminate the root causes of a conflict. This is key to any situation, be it the lack of a Palestinian state and what is going on in the Middle East, or be it Ukraine. The root causes of the Ukrainian crisis are not mentioned in any initiatives.
I met recently with ambassadors accredited to Russia in Moscow, talked about this to them, and whenever I speak to journalists or political scientists, I always raise this issue because, to my amazement, what I'm going to say is not reported by anybody. The root causes: in February 2014, because Ukraine, to understand how the association with the European Union would affect its economic relations with Russia, just, you know, some additional thinking, additional consultations to understand how this would affect.
They wanted to have no tariffs with the European Union, and we have a lot of protection with the European Union for many industries of ours. So we told them, "Guys, if you open up, we have to close the border with Ukraine because we would be flooded by the European goods, which are, on most things, more competitive."
That's why Ukrainians asked for some more time to think. Actually, we suggested to the EU and to Ukrainians to have a meeting at three and to discuss it. The European Union head of the commission, Mr. Barroso, at that time, said, "None of your business. We don't discuss with you our relations with Canada." Anyway, very arrogant.
So the request to postpone the consultations was used as the trigger for this Maidan demonstration, which culminated in February 2014.
Can I bring you back to the present day? Because we're running out of time.
Yeah, I understand that you represent cancel culture. Whatever part of root causes you don't like, you want to switch over them.
I think you...
I'm not going...
Well, if we're running out of time, then I was right. Then I was right. You wanted to run me in Syria. I think these are rather important issues. I address them very seriously.
So briefly, this confrontation between the president and the government was resolved with Germany, France, and Poland witnessing and guaranteeing the deal between the government and the opposition. The next morning, they took all administrative buildings, and the deal signed the night before said we create a government of national unity and go for early elections.
When they took the administrative building, they said, "Congratulate us, we created the government of the winners, not of national unity." Winners. Then they said their first announcement was, "We will cancel the status of the Russian language." They sent armed groups.
But this all is... we were only accused of annexing Crimea. No attention to the fact that Crimeans held a referendum. They said territorial integrity... a few years before that, they announced unilaterally, without any referendum, independence of Kosovo and said this is in line with the UN Charter because which is the right for decolonization, for awakening of the people.
By the same token, the people whom Zelensky, in an interview before the special operation, called not people but species and publicly said those who live in Ukraine and feel associated with the Russian culture should get out to Russia. These people do not consider Zelensky and his regime as legitimate masters.
Mr. Foreign Minister, my final question: we have the ATACMS missiles being used by the Americans. We have Russia now using its new hypersonic missiles. We have lots of nuclear talk. How dangerous is this moment right now, in your view, in your long career as a person at the top table of global diplomacy? And do you hope that the arrival of the Trump administration can turn the page?
Well, I cannot speculate about the policies which the Trump administration would eventually formulate. Many, many rumors, many testing ground statements.
As regards the danger, it is dangerous, and I hope you can at some point interview somebody from the American Biden administration because everything they do indicates that they persuade Europeans, they push them further and further, providing an example, like the British more aggressively involved. They also pressure the Germans with... as far as I understand.
You know, once Mr. Kirby, who is the strategic communicator of the communications at the White House, he was asked whether the US is concerned about possible escalation. He said, "Yes, we are, because if nuclear weapons are used, Europe would suffer mentally." He cannot even think about the fact that the US is concerned with this mentality. It's very reckless for the current administration to push and push and push Europe.
I hope reason would prevail. There are wise people in the United States, and we hope that they would be taking the final decision and not those who play with fire.
Sergey Lavrov, Foreign Minister of the Russian Federation, thank you for talking to Al Jazeera for the 2024 Doha Forum. Thank you for your time.
Thank you very much. Thank you very much, James.
Potentially catastrophic configuration of the war between Russia and Ukraine, a war that could engulf many in the region, that could pit two of the world's nuclear powers, or will cooler heads prevail? Extremely important there to hear the Russian perspective on so many of the world's key crises, from Syria to Gaza and, of course, Ukraine. Minister Lavrov, as you heard, dismissing many of the proposals that have been put forward by the Ukrainian President Zelensky, but highlighting the importance of some of the global principles that have been presented by China on the need to address some of the world's root causes when it comes to tackling and solving some of the many intractable and thorny crises in the world today.