Transcription
look at it from a business perspective, they're just trying to maximize their profits. They want to create a product that people will buy, and unfortunately, that often means adding more sugar because it makes the product more appealing to consumers. It's not necessarily a conspiracy; it's just how the market operates.
The challenge is that these companies are incentivized to prioritize profit over health, and that leads to a food environment where unhealthy options are more accessible and appealing than healthier ones. This is why education and awareness are so crucial. If consumers understand the impact of sugar on their health, they can make more informed choices, which could shift demand towards healthier products.
Ultimately, it's about creating a culture that values health and well-being over convenience and profit. We need to advocate for better food policies, support local and healthier food options, and educate ourselves and others about nutrition. It's a complex issue, but change is possible if we work together.
Just break something down to the incentives a company has: a key KPI, an OKR, and a metric of making more money. They are publicly listed; they've got investors. If they don't make more money, they die, so that's their incentive. If they find out that 42 grams of sugar in a drink is going to result in that goal being met, then that's what they're going to do.
Totally. I used to think, when I was younger, that diabetes was sort of invented by the food industry and the pharma industry. Because when you think about it, it's a perfect disease. Diabetes is caused by eating too much junk food over too long, and then once you have diabetes, instead of saying, "Hey, stop the junk food," they just give you medication that allows you to keep eating the junk food and manage your condition. Then you need more medication, you're eating more junk food, and then you die. So I thought this is like the perfect conspiracy if big food and big pharma were like, "How are we going to make the most money possible?" But actually, it's way more complicated than that. It's a very tough situation. I don't have the answer, but I'm hoping that in my lifetime we see some progress because I really do believe that the people in these companies want to do better. They don't want people to die; they don't want people to get sick. But they also have to make sure that the company is making money. So how do you bridge those two? That's a really interesting question.
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What about menopause? Interested in this? I've talked a lot on this podcast about menopause, but is there any link between glucose spikes and menopause?
Yeah, so unfortunately, once you go through menopause, your glucose response to the same food becomes higher. So your body is less good— I know you're making a sad face; I know it's difficult. Your glucose levels naturally increase; your glucose spikes naturally increase. What I have found in the studies, which is interesting, is that in females going through menopause, when you reduce the amount of sugar in the diet and reduce their glucose spikes, you do get some relief from your symptoms, whether it's insomnia or hot flashes. You do see that food can impact how bad of a time you have when you go through this process.
Have I depressed you?
No, no, I just—so, okay, so I've got the hacks. I kind of understand the impact that glucose is having on my body now. I guess it's funny because there's a whole spectrum of people that listen. There are some people that listen to this who will be on one side of the spectrum where they're really struggling with sugar; maybe they're clinically obese, and maybe they just can't get out of that roller coaster of cravings. It's probably somewhat emotional; there are probably some kind of trauma there or something. Maybe there's a genetic predisposition or whatever. But for those people, I don't know what to offer them, really. What can I offer them? What can we offer them?
So, people who are stuck in a craving cycle, that are at the extreme end of the craving cycle—okay, so when you're at the extreme end of the craving cycle, you are a victim to your sugar cravings throughout the day. You'll be like, "I need sugar, I need sugar," and you go grab it, right? Yes, this can be due to emotional factors, but also it probably means that you're on a big glucose roller coaster. It means you're activating that craving center in your brain multiple times every two hours.
If before you eat something sweet, next time you have a craving, if you do one of these things—either you have a tablespoon of vinegar in water, or you have something else before it, like a little bit of broccoli, some cherry tomatoes, a carrot, or some almonds—something that's going to put some clothing on those carbs, you'll be able to get the dopamine from the cravings. Sorry, you'll be able to get the dopamine from the sugar with less of a spike and less of a crash, so less activation of the craving center in your brain. If you do this throughout the day, you're going to feel a little bit less urge for that sweet food.
I don't think we can say these people are not going to benefit from studying their glucose levels; I think that would be misguided. You must have so many people that message you, though, that have just tried and tried and tried and tried.
Yeah, listen, for some people, they just can't do it. It's just hard for them. You know, they're in a difficult economic, social, or relationship situation, and they just can't do the hacks right now. Maybe they'll be able to in a year, but most people who try and who are able to get their hands on savory breakfast ingredients, on vinegar, on some veggies, they see really good impact. And that's what drives me, really.
And I guess much of what might motivate them or give them the discipline to stick is— I mean, this is certainly the case for me—getting really clear on why all this stuff matters. You know, I don't think humans are particularly good at thinking too far into the future. I think we're good at dealing with prevention; it's not sexy, right? Like, if you tell somebody, "Oh, these glucose hacks are going to be good for you so you prevent Alzheimer's," nobody really cares unless you have a parent with Alzheimer's. But this stuff not only helps you long term, but even just forget about that; it will help you feel better today, have fewer cravings for sugar today, have more energy today to go and get your to-do list done, sleep better tonight. That's the stuff that motivates people.
And it's easy, Stephen; it's easy! Savory breakfast, vinegar, veggie snacks—it's easy, and you feel the impact immediately, so you want to keep going.
And on that point of today, if I'm doing a podcast episode and I'm sitting here for three, four, five hours sometimes, do you recommend that I avoid glucose before I do the podcast to make sure my cognitive performance is optimal?
100%, yes! Studies show that when you have a big glucose spike for breakfast before you do a cognitive task, you are not as good on the cognitive task as if you have steady glucose levels. Because your brain also uses glucose for energy, it feels the ups and the downs and the inflammation and the glycation. If you want to really fuel your brain, have a nice savory breakfast or eat nothing if you don't feel like eating.
Well, you said that my brain uses glucose for energy, so if I have a massive bowl of sugar right before this conversation, isn't my brain going to be like—
No, it's like your mitochondria; it's like the plant. Some glucose is a steady supply; good. Too much glucose at once? Stress. Stress in your mitochondria, stress in your body. Too much water at once in a plant? The plant dies. You want to make sure the supply is nice and steady. The variation is what causes issues.
You gave me this blue tube that's in front of me. What is this? It says "anti-spike formula." I can't even pronounce it; that's not English.
Oh, did I give you a French one?
You gave me a French one. Okay, in English, it should say, "Makes the glucose spike of carbs and sugar up to 40% smaller."
What is it?
Okay, it's like—so for anybody that's just listening on audio, it's this little jar of tablets, little capsules. On each capsule, it says "anti-spike." Half of the capsule is green; the other half of it is this sort of beige color, and it's got a powder in each capsule. There are 60 capsules in this little jar.
What is it?
This is just me putting some cutting-edge science into capsules so people can use it. There have been two big scientific realizations that I wanted to share with people. The first one has to do with GLP-1. So you know those little cells that are sensing food and that produce GLP-1 in your body that I was mentioning? Nice!
There's a molecule in lemon—look at me!
Look at you, Steve! Who would have thought? Who would have thought? Look at us! There you go, the glucose goddess himself, drinking vinegar in this hand, anti-spike formula in this hand. We're going to live forever!
You're going to live forever! We're going to live forever! I really want to live until like 150, mostly because I want to see if they find aliens. Anyway, that's a sidebar.
So, do you know what I just did? Did you recognize it?
Where?
That guy—guys, I think it's Hot Ones. And I like, "Look at us! Look at us! Look at us!"
Who thought?
You're perfect, Stephen. I'm so proud of you!
Wait, wait! So I want to tell you this because it's really cool. So you know lemons? They're really yellow, yeah?
Okay, so the reason they're yellow is because of a substance called arocitrin. It's an antioxidant; it's really good. Arocitrin has been discovered by scientists to be really good at increasing the amount of GLP-1 your little L cells make. So on the one hand, you have extreme pharma drugs giving you way too much GLP-1, and then on this side, you have natural stuff that can naturally increase GLP-1, which helps your glucose levels, your cravings, and your satiety.
So this lemon molecule, if you have enough of it, is going to increase the amount of GLP-1 your cells produce. The thing is, Stephen, you need to have a lot of it. You need to drink like one and a half liters of lemon juice per day to get enough to impact your cells, or you can extract it and concentrate it, and that's what I've done and put into anti-spike. So this is a really cool natural molecule that I want people to have access to to do the natural GLP-1 increase. So this could lower glucose spikes by up to 40%.
So the lemon extract doesn't do the glucose spike; it does the GLP-1 thing. The other thing that I've put in anti-spike is an extract from mulberry leaf. So mulberry leaf contains a molecule called DNJ—super cool molecule. When you have it before a meal, it goes and interacts with those little scissors I was telling you about that vinegar acts on, and it prevents up to 40% of the glucose in your meal from being absorbed into your bloodstream. So it just cuts by 40% the glucose absorption—just the glucose. It doesn't cut the vitamins, the protein, the minerals—nothing.
So I've put these two amazing scientific discoveries into this bottle with the best quality extracts, etc., because they were not on the market, and I wanted people to have access to them. Again, you can just do the food hacks; you don't need this. But if you want supplement health, don't go for berberine; don't go for vinegar capsules. This is what you need.
What is the most important thing we haven't spoken about that you think we should have?
There's a new study that I wanted to mention on depression, which I think is really interesting. It has followed people for 10 years. So it followed 300 people; none of them had insulin resistance or depression at the beginning of the study. Insulin resistance, as I explained, is just a consequence of lots of glucose spikes over a long time. They followed these people for 10 years, and they found that in the people who developed insulin resistance within those 10 years, there was almost a twofold increase in the development of major depression as well. So insulin resistance is correlated to major depressive disorder. I'm not saying it's causing it, but for me, the connection between glucose and mental health is truly fascinating. And as you know, and we discussed in our previous episode, that's the reason I got into this in the first place. Seeing more studies come out like this linking the two, I think we're going to learn so much in the next few years.
I mean, I think as you were saying that, I was thinking about, you know, if I have a high glucose diet, then it has a ton of downstream consequences, one of which is like my sleep is going to be terrible. If my sleep is terrible, I'm probably going to be more likely to be depressed.
Yeah, absolutely. Do you think much about sleep and glucose? Has anyone ever—
I do, yeah. There are some studies showing that if you go to bed after dinner, that that has caused a big glucose spike, you're going to have less restorative deep sleep. And for me, if I go to bed with a big glucose spike at dinner, in the morning I wake up and I'm so hungry. It's always like I inevitably, if my dinner causes a big spike, I'm hungry as soon as I wake up—like gargling hunger. So I think sleep and food are more related than we think. And then if we're tired, our glucose spikes will be higher the next day, which means we'll have more cravings because if your body's tired, it can't manage glucose as effectively.
In fact, another study I want to mention, which is really cool—so you're a coffee drinker now?
Mhm.
Coffee, in some people, causes glucose spikes, even black coffee, because of the stress response. Have you ever seen a glucose spike from coffee?
I've not looked.
Okay, then let's hope you don't. But in some people, it causes a spike, especially in people who feel a bit jittery and anxious when they drink coffee. Here's the study: it showed that if you're tired and you didn't sleep well, you should drink your coffee after your breakfast instead of before, and it can cut the glucose spike of your coffee by up to 50%. And also, I think it makes sense from a cortisol standpoint. If you're exhausted and you just have a bunch of coffee first thing when you wake up, it might be a lot for your body to handle.
So even black coffee can cause the glucose spike?
Yeah, in some people.
Yeah, in me, it never caused it. It didn't prevent me from becoming way too addicted to coffee, but in some people, it caused a spike.
Yeah. Have you stopped drinking coffee, did you say?
Yeah, 31 days ago. Tracking the day.
Really? Why?
Yeah, because it was a habit that I was dependent on but that didn't serve me, and I knew this for years. Every time I had a coffee, I then didn't feel so good, and I was like, "Why did I drink that coffee?" The crash is really intense for me; my brain is very sensitive to stuff. So it would just make me have a bit of brain fog; I would not think super clearly. But yet every night when I went to bed, I would be dreaming about my flat white in the morning, and it was something I really wanted to solve.
And I don't know why, you know, a month ago I was drinking coffee. I was like, "That's it; that's the last one for a while." And then I didn't have one the next day or the next day, and then after five days, you just don't even want it anymore.
And what have you noticed since you've stopped drinking coffee?
It's so much easier for me to fall asleep at night. I just get in bed, and within 10 minutes, I'm asleep, whereas before I would think and be in bed and just, you know, think about stuff, have lots of thoughts, and just spend an hour awake essentially. And then my brain works better. I don't have those big bursts of energy where I would get super productive and like get all my stuff done, but I feel more consistent throughout the day, and I feel more like myself. I think that's the biggest part, and I feel proud of myself for having done this. I know it's not a huge deal, but for me, it meant a lot. I've been trying to drive this coffee conspiracy for so long, and no one will take it.
What's the conspiracy?
I just think it's hailed as this superfood and this super drink that really has no impact on us other than if we drink it past 12:00, then it's going to impact our sleep because life is 12 hours. But I just think like something that has such a big clear positive impact, or at least in the short term of productivity and focus, that people are so dependent on in culture must be at somewhere having equal and opposite costs.
What's weird is that all the studies show that people who drink more coffee have fewer diseases.
I know! It's like so weird. How could this be?
Because I live by the principle that everything has like an equal and opposite cost. I think that's like Einstein's theory of relativity or whatever. I totally butchered that because I have no idea about anything to do with physics, but just this idea that you can't— isn't it like E=mc²?
Where it's—
I don't know; even what I'm talking about. Look at me! Mass and energy, yeah. Like you can't destroy—every force has an opposite effect, equal and opposite effect. And so with coffee, okay, if it brings me really, really up and it really makes me focused and productive, then there must be an equal and opposite downside. Maybe the downside is just you spend a lot of money on it; I don't know. But it can't be that simple.
It's not like a find-out; it's got to be—there's got to be—listen, maybe it's just one of those things that's actually not too bad for us. I don't know.
I think one of the downsides is that people often put a lot of stuff in their coffee, like sugar, oat milk—things that are not good for you. You know, oat milk is pasta juice!
Anybody listening, oat milk is not good for you; it's just starch.
So maybe that's the downside; I don't know.
No, I don't believe it. It's got to be—again, looking at all the studies: longevity, health, disease, weight loss, you know, everything—it says it's a super thing.
But maybe we're not focusing—don't you think it disconnects you a little bit from yourself? Maybe that's the downside, that you're less grounded, you're less in your body, you're a bit less authentic to you. You get a bit more like supercharged?
Yeah, supercharged. Maybe that's why. Maybe it is. Maybe people just value the downside.
Totally! Because in our society, we love this stuff. We love just being in our brain and having a big to-do list.
How are you dealing with all this attention?
I'm in a good place now, but it was really tough because I'm such a sensitive person. At the beginning, I had no idea what I was doing. I had like a Google alert set for my name, and I was getting things every day.
Yeah, and nobody teaches you how to deal with this stuff.
True. You have to learn the hard way.
Yeah, so now I protect myself. You know, I don't read anything, and my team filters stuff to me that's important. All in all, like the quote-unquote attention, I just keep coming back to the fact that, you know, I believe in what I'm doing. It's helpful; it's easy. I see proof every day that it's helping people. It's scientific; it makes me happy. And so all the noise, you know, all the haters and stuff, you just kind of—it's part of the package, I guess.
I think you're all—having met you and spoken to you for a long time on and off, we go way back now.
Tell me about it!
You are one of the most well-intentioned, pure, wonderful people I have ever met. And in fact, when I saw that we were having this conversation today, I think oftentimes it's a good gauge of the person because I was really just excited. It was like expansive knowing that you were coming here because you're such a beautiful soul and human. And so anybody writing bad things about you, I just think doesn't understand who you are as a person, and that's okay; we forgive.
Thanks, Stephen. So kind of you to say.
We have a closing TR on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question that's been left for you is: "Tell us about an occasion that comes to mind when a complete stranger did a surprising act of great kindness to you."
Oh yeah, I know exactly. It was a year and a half ago; I was in London, and it was just before this book was coming out. I was in a phase where, you know, when you get burnt out and it's just a lot, and I was like, "Why am I doing this? I just want to quit."
And I got into a black cab, Stephen, and the driver—I think he was an angel or something—he just looked in the mirror and looked at me and started saying—this is going to make me cry—he just looked at me and he said, "Whatever you're doing, it's important." He just said that. And he just said, "Whatever you're doing, it's important; keep going."
And it's so crazy that this stuff happens. There was the universe sending me a message or something. He was definitely like, I don't know, yeah, that really stuck with me because it really felt like a—and I'm a very spiritual person—it really felt like a message from the spirits, you know, trying to help me in this difficult moment.
So it was not so much a personal thing somebody did, but it was something that someone channeled that really impacted me.
Why did it matter so much at that moment?
Oh, because I go through ups and downs. It's hard, you know? It's hard to drive this idea, this project by myself and to manage all the people and to care so much about the placement of the broccoli on the cover of the book. And it's just—it's a lot. It's a lot of stuff that I care about so deeply, and sometimes it just eats at you. It's so much.
And I think it mattered to me so much when he said that because it felt like, okay, there's something going on that is beyond what we understand, beyond what science understands. This was a message from the universe. This person had—I didn't say a word, Stephen; I didn't say a word! And he said that to me.
Yeah, I mean, what I took from what you said is just how a total stranger saying a couple of words can really have such a tremendous impact. Like, I interpret it as like a message from God, but actually, whatever—maybe he says that to everybody. Maybe, but regardless of the fact, there's something so beautiful about how you never really know at any given moment what anyone's going through, and just a couple of well-placed words can have such a profound impact.
And just imagine, like, so say this is exaggerating the scenario slightly, but you were really going to quit. Yeah, and him saying those couple of words—someone that has no idea whatsoever pushed you to carry on on your mission, and pushing you to carry on on your mission saves thousands and thousands and thousands of people's lives and extends their health span. And all it was was a couple of words.
Wild! And all of that's going on at all times in our society, and we don't even know the sort of butterfly effect of the impact it's having on people. But we can bet on the fact that it's just better to be kind.
Exactly! And we can bet on the fact that if we want to say something nice to somebody, we should. You know, when you see somebody in the street on crutches or whatever, just say, "Get well soon." That kind of stuff is powerful. Just see them, you know? It's just being seen, I think, which is so powerful because you get into your own head.
Jesse, thank you!
Thank you so much! I'm very, very excited by your anti-spike formula—very, very excited! And my partner is going to be thrilled when I bring this home, so thank you for that. And I highly recommend, because this book is so beautiful and it's been such a smash hit all around the world. I think it sold what, more than three million copies or something staggering like that? So congratulations on all your success; long may it continue.
And I have to say, what you're doing is important, so please do keep on doing it.
Thank you! You're going to make me cry again. You're the worst; you always make me cry!
No, I don't do anything! What are you talking about? You always give me body vinegar!
Thank you, Stephen!
Thank you so much! Thank you for being here; I appreciate you.
Thank you!
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