Transcription
The Joe Rogan experience. Fundamentally. Well, let's talk about what you can talk about to what Neuralink is because the last time you were here, we really couldn't discuss it. And then there was a, I guess, a press release, something that sort of outlined. Yeah.
That that that happened quite a bit after last time you were here. So what exactly is it? How do you do what what happens if someone ultimately does get a Neuralink installed? What will take place? Well, for version one of the device, it would be, it it basically implanted in your skull.
So but it would be flush with your skull. So you basically, take out a chunk of skull, replace put put the neural link device in there. You you put the the electrode you insert the electrode threads very carefully into the the brain, and, and then you, you know, stitch it up and, and you wouldn't even know that somebody has it. And then and and so then it it it can interface basically anywhere in anywhere in your brain. So it could be something that, you know, helps cure, say, eyesight, like, give you returns your eyesight even if you've, like, lost your optic nerve type of thing.
It could Really? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Hearing, obviously.
I mean, pretty much anything that where that that it could, in principle, fix almost anything that is wrong with the brain. And it it could it could, restore, limb functionality. So if you've got interface into the motor cortex and then an implant that's, say, that's like a microcontroller, in in near muscle groups, you you could then create a sort of a neural shunt that restores somebody who is a quadriplegic to full functionality. Like, they can walk around, be normal. Woah.
Yeah. So Maybe slightly better. Slightly better? Over time. Yes.
You mean with future iterations? Like the, you know, $6,000,000 amount. Although these days, that would that doesn't seem much. Yeah. Yeah.
$6,000,000,000 amount. So the the hole would be small. How big would the hole be that you have to drill and then replace with this piece? It's only one hole? Well, yeah.
The device we're working on right now is about it's about an inch in diameter, and your your skull's pretty thick, by the way. So skulls are Mine is for sure. It might actually literally be. I mean, if you're a big if you're a big guy, your skull is actually fairly thick. Skull is, like, is, like, seven to 14 millimeters.
Mhmm. So That's probably a couple inches. A half inch. You know? Half inch thick skull ish.
So, yeah. Yeah. So that that's a fair bit of like, our our we got quite a coconut going on here. It's not it's not like some eggshell. Oh, yeah.
I believe you. So the yeah. You basically implant the device. And so you would be, like, a one inch square or one inch in diameter? Yeah.
Like a So an inch circle. Like a circular? Yeah. I think like a like a smartwatch or something like that or Okay. Yeah.
Okay. So you take this one inch diameter like ice fishing. Right? You ever go ice fishing? No.
But I'd like to. It's great. Yeah. It's really fun. Yeah.
So you basically take an auger and you you drill You take through the surface of the ice. Yeah. And you create a small hole, and then you can dunk your line in there. So this is like that. You're ice fishing on the top of your skull, and then you cork it.
Yeah. And you replace that, say, one inch diameter piece of skull with the this Neuralink device, and that has a battery and a and a Bluetooth and a inductive charger, and then you and and then then you also gotta insert the electrodes. So the electrodes are very carefully inserted, with with our with our robot that we developed, that's look it's, you know, very carefully putting in the electrodes and avoiding, you know, any any veins or arteries. So it's it's, you know, it doesn't create trauma. So through this one inch diameter Yeah.
Device, electrodes be inserted, and they will find their way Like tiny wires, basically. Tiny wires. Tiny wires. And they'll find their way to specific areas of the brain to stimulate? No.
You literally put them where where they're supposed to go. Oh, okay. Yeah. You send How long will these wires be? I mean, they usually go in, like, you know, depending on where it is, like, you know, two or three millimeters.
So they just find the spots. Yeah. Wow. And then, at the end, then you you put the device in and that that gets, that that replaces the the little piece of skull that was taken out, and then you you you stitch up the the hole and and, and you just have a little like a little scar, and that's it. Well, this should be replaceable or reversible?
Yeah. Like, if someone can't take it anymore? Yeah. You can take it. I'm too smart.
I can't take it. Yeah. You can totally take it out. And what is the besides restoring limb function and eyesight and hearing, which are all amazing, is there there any cognitive benefits that you anticipate from something like this? Yeah.
I mean, you could for sure, I mean, basically, it's it's a generalized sort of thing for for fixing any kind of brain injury in in in principle. Like, if you or if you've got, like, like, severe epilepsy or something like that, it could it could just it could just sort of stop the epilepsy from occurring. Like, you could detect it in real time and then fire a a counter pulse and stop the epilepsy. If, I mean, there's there's a whole range of brain injuries. Like, if if somebody gets a stroke, they could lose the ability to speak, that that'll that could also be fixed.
So if you get, like, stroke damage or if you you lose, say, you know, muscle control over a part of your face or something like that, I think and then when when you when you get old, you tend to, if you get, like, you know, Alzheimer's or something like that, then you lose memory, and this could help you with, you know, restoring your memory, that kind of thing. Restoring memory. And what what is happening that's allowing it to do that? Like, the wires these small wires Yeah. Stimulating these areas of the brain.
And then is it that the areas of the brain are they're they're losing some sort of electrical force? Like, what what is happening? Yeah. Yeah? It's it's it's like it's like think of just like a bunch of circuits, and there's some, like, circuits that are broken, and we can, like, fix those circuits.
It's a substitute for those circuits. And so a specific frequency will go through this? Yeah. Just so Specific in that would is the process figuring out how much or how little has to be? How how much these areas of the brain have to be juiced up?
Yeah. I mean, there's still a lot of work to do. So when I say, you know, we got a shot at probably putting in in in a person in, you know, a within a a year, I think that that's that's what that's exactly what I mean. I think we have a chance of putting input into one and having them having them be healthy and and restoring some functionality that they've they've lost. The fear is that eventually you're gonna have to cut the whole top of someone's head off and put a new top Sure.
With a whole bunch of wires if you wanna get, you know, the real turbocharged version, the p 100 d Uh-huh. Of of brain stimulation. I mean, ultimately, if you if you wanna go with full AI symbiosis, you'll probably wanna do something like that. Symbiosis is a scary word when it comes to AI. It's optional.
I would hope so. Yeah. It's just I mean, once you enjoy the Doctor Manhattan lifestyle, once you once you become a god, seems very, very unlikely you're gonna wanna go back to being stupid again. I mean, you you literally could fundamentally change the way human beings interface with each other. Yes.
Yes. You wouldn't need to talk. I'm so scared of that, but so excited about at the same time. Is that weird? Yeah.
I mean, the the I think this is one of the paths to, you you know, like, think like what what are like, AI is getting better and better. So now let's assume it's sort of like a a benign AI scenario. Even in a benign scenario, we're kinda left behind. You know, we're we're we're not we're not along for the ride. We're just too dumb.
Right. So so so how do you go along for the ride? And so you can't beat them, join them. So, and we're we're already we're already a cyborg to some degree. Right?
Because you've got your phone. You got your laptop. Glasses. Yeah. Yeah.
Your drawer. You know, electronic devices. Yeah. And, I mean, we today, if you your phone if you if you don't bring your phone along, it's like you have missing limb syndrome. That's like you know, feels like something's really, really missing.
So we're already partly, part you know, partly a cyborg, or an AI symbiotic, essentially. It's just that the data rate to the electronics is slow. So especially output. Like, you're just going with your thumbs. I don't know.
Like, what what's your data rate? Optimistically, a hundred bits per second. That's being generous. And now the computer can communicate at, like, you know, hundred a hundred terabits. You know?
So so, certainly, you know, gigabits are trivial at this point. So this this is like yeah. Basically, your your computer could do a do things a million times faster. Or you're you're at a certain point, it's like talk the AI has, like, talk into a tree. Okay.
This is boring. You talk to a tree. It's very not very entertaining. So, so if you if you can solve the the data rate issue and you're especially your output input two, then you can improve the symbiosis that is already occurring between man and machine. So you you can improve it in what when you said you won't have to talk to each other anymore, we used to joke around about that.
I I've joked around about that a million times in this podcast that one day in the future, there's gonna come a time where you can read each other's minds. And Well, you'll be able to interface with each other in some sort of a nonverbal Mhmm. Non nonphysical way where you will transfer data back and forth to each other without having to actually use your mouth. Yeah. Exactly.
Noises. Exactly. So when you like, what happens when you when like, let's say you've got some complex idea that you're trying to convey to somebody else. And how how do you do that? Well, your your brain spends a lot of effort compressing a complex concept into words.
And there's a there's a lot of a lot of loss information loss that occurs when compressing a complex concept into words. And then you say those words, those words are then interpreted, then they're decompressed by the person who is listening. And they they will at best get a a very incomplete understanding of what you're trying to convey. It's very difficult to convey a complex concept with precision, because you've got compression, decompression. You may not even have heard all the words correctly, and so communication is difficult.
You know, what we have here is a failure to communicate. Cool. And Luke. Yes. And this is a great movie.
Yeah. Very good. And there's an interpretation factor too. Like, you can choose to interpret certain series of words in in different ways, And they're dependent upon tone, dependent upon Yeah. Social cues, even facial expressions, sarcasm.
There's there's a lot of variables. Sarcasm is difficult. Yes. Yeah. And so one of one of the things that I I've said is, like, that there could be potentially a universal language that's created through computers that particularly young kids would pick up very quickly.
Like, my kids do TikTok and all this jazz, and I I don't know what they're doing. They just know how to do it. And they know how to do it really quickly. Like, they learn really quickly, and they show me how to edit things and Yeah. It's if you taught a child from first grade on how to use some new universal language, I mean, essentially, like a a Rosetta Stone and something that's done with that interprets your thoughts and you can convey your thoughts with no room for interpretation Mhmm.
With clear very clear that where you know what a person's saying and you can tell them what you're saying, and there's no need for noises. No need for mouth noises. No need for Yes. These sort of accepted ways that we've, sort of evolved to make sounds that we all agree. We through our cultural dictionary and Right.
We agree or certain. We we could bypass all that. Yeah. We could still do it for For fun. Sentimental reasons.
Right. Like campfires. Yeah. Exactly. I don't need campfires.
I don't need to roast marshmallows. It's kind of fun. Right. So yeah. Yeah.
I think you would, in principle, you would be able to communicate very quickly and with far more precision, ideas. And and language would I'm not sure what would happen to language. But you you could probably whether in a situation like this that you would be able to just it'll be kinda like the matrix. You you wanna speak a different language, no problem. Right.
That's why it was downloaded the program. Right. So at least for the first iterations, first few iterations, we'll just be able to you like, I I know that Google has, their, some of their pixel buds have the ability to interpret languages in real time. Sure. Yeah.
You can hear it, and it'll it'll play things back to you in whatever language you choose. So it'd be something along those lines? Yeah. For the first few iterations? Well, the first few iterations are I mean, what I'm talking about is, like, in the limit over time, you know, with a lot of development.
The first few iterations really, in the first few versions, all we're gonna be trying to do is is solve brain injuries. So so it's like, don't don't worry that that's not gonna sneak up on you. This this this will take a while. How many years before you don't have to talk? If the if if the development continues to accelerate, then maybe, like, five years, five to ten years.
That's quick. That's really quick. That's the best case scenario. No talking anymore in five years. Best case scenario.
But, ma'am, tens ten years won't like it. I've always speculated that aliens could potentially be us in the future. Because if you look at, like, the size of their heads and the fact that they have very little muscle and they're they're they don't use their mouth anymore, there was tiny little I mean, the archetypal alien that you see in, like, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, they they're like, if you went from, like, australopithecus or ancient hominid to us, what's the difference? Less hair, less muscle, bigger head. And then just keep going.
A thousand, a million, whatever year or five years, whatever whatever happens when Neuralink goes on online, and then we slowly start to adapt to this new way of being Mhmm. Where we don't use our muscles anymore. We have this gigantic head. We can talk without words. You you could also save state.
And Save state? Save state. Like, save your brain state, like like a save game in a video game. Woah. Like like, if you wanna swap from Windows 95 Well to like, you Probably a little better than than that.
But yeah. I think we are Windows 95 right now. Yeah. My my future perspective, probably. Yeah.
But yeah. I mean, you you could save state, and restore that state into a biological being if you if you wanted to in the future in principle. There's, like, nothing, like, from a physics standpoint that prevents us. Now you you'd be a little different, but then you're also a little different when you wake up in the morning from yesterday, and you're a little different. In fact, if you say, like, you five years ago versus you today, it's quite a big difference.
Yes. So you'd be substantially you. I mean, you'd be you would you'd suddenly think you're you. But the idea of saving yourself and then transforming that into some sort of a biological state, like, you could hang out with 30 year old you? I mean, the possibilities are endless.
That's so weird. I mean, these things think, like, how your phone can you can record videos on your phone. Mhmm. Like, there's no no way you could remember a video Right. As accurately as your phone or a camera, you know, could.
So, now if if you've got, like, a, you know, some some, you know, version 10, Neuralink, whatever, and far in the future, you you could you could you could recall everything, but just like it's a movie. Because Including all the entire sensory experience. Emotions. Everything. Everything.
Everything. And play it back. And you and you'll be able to share it. Edit it. Yeah.
So you can change your past? You could change what do you think was your past. Yeah. Well, so if you had, like, traumatic experience. Now could be a replayed memory.
It could be. Yeah. It may be. What's the odds of this being a replayed memory, if you had a guess? It's more than 50%.
There's no way to assign a probability with accuracy here. Right. But roughly. If you just had a just gut instinct. Well, I don't have a Neuralink in my brain, so I'd say right now 0%.
But at the point at which you do have a Neuralink, then it rises above 0%. The idea that we're experiencing some sort of a preserved memory is, even though it's still the same, it's not comforting. Right? For some reason, when you when people talk about simulation theory, they talk about the potential for this currently being a simulation. It even though your life might be wonderful, you might be in love, you might love your career, you might have great friends, but it's not comforting to know that this experience somehow or another doesn't exist in a material form that you can knock on.
Feels real, doesn't it? Feels real. But but if it's not but the idea that it's not is, for some strange reason, disconcerting. Well, yeah, I'm sure it should be disconcerting. Because then if if this is not real, what is?
Right. But but the you know, there's that that old sort of, thought experiment of, like, how do you know you're not a brain in a vat? You know? And now here here's the thing. You are a brain in a vat, then that vat is your skull.
Yes. And everything you see, feel, hear, everything. All your senses are are electrical signals. Everything. Everything is an electrical signal to a to a brain in a bat where the bat is for a skull.
And all your hormones, all your neurotransmitters, all these things are drugs. Adrenaline's a drug. Dopamine's a drug. You're a drug factory. You're constantly changing your state with love and oxytocin and and beauty.
Sure. Changes your state. Great music changes your state. Absolutely. And yet here's another sort of interesting idea, which is, because you say, like, where where did consciousness arise?
Well, assuming you believe the belief in in physics, which appears to be true, then, you know, we the universe started off as basically quarks and leptons, and it quickly became hydrogen and, helium, lithium, like, basically elements of the periodic table. But it was, like, mostly hydrogen, basically. And then and then over a long period of time, you know, thirteen point eight billion years later, that hydrogen became sentient. But so where along the way did where is the consciousness what's the line of consciousness and not consciousness Right. Between hydrogen and here?
Right. When do we call it? When do we call it consciousness? I was watching a video today that we played on the podcast earlier of a monkey riding a motorcycle down the street, jumps off the motorcycle and tries to steal a baby. Yeah.
So that one. It went viral. What is that monkey conscious? It seems like it is. It seems like it had a plan.
It was riding a fucking motorcycle and then jumped off the motorcycle to try to steal a baby. Seems pretty The one that just dragged baby down the street pretty far? Yeah. Yeah. Seems pretty conscious.
Right? There's definitely some degree of consciousness there. Yeah. It's not like it's not a worm. It seems to be on another level.
Yeah. And it's gonna keep going. And that that's the real concern when when people think about the potential future versions of human beings, especially when you consider symbiotic relationship to artificial intelligence, it will be unrecognizable. That one day we'll be so far removed from what this is. We'll look back on this the way we look back now on, you know, simple simple organisms that we evolved from, and that it won't be that far in the future that we do have this this view back.
Well, I hope consciousness propagates into the future and gets more more sophisticated and complex and and that it understands the questions to ask about the universe. Do you think that's the case? As as a human being, as yourself, you're clearly trying to make conscious decisions to be a better version of you. Right? This is the idea of, like, getting rid of your possessions and realizing that you're trying to like, I don't like this.
I will try to improve this. I will try to do a better version of the way I interface with reality. That this is always the way things are if you're if you're moving in some sort of a direction where you're trying to improve things. You're always gonna move into this new place where you look back in the old place and go, I was doing it wrong back then. So this is an accelerated version of that.
A super accelerated version of that. I mean, you don't always improve, but you can aspire to improve. You can aspire to be less wrong. Yeah. This is, like, I think you're good.
The tools of physics are very powerful. Like, just assume you're wrong and you're asked for your goal to be less wrong. I don't think you're gonna if if succeed every day in being less wrong, but, you know, if you're gonna succeed in being less wrong most of the time, you're doing great. That's a great way of putting it. Aspire to be less wrong.
Mhmm. But then when, you know, people look back in nostalgia about simpler times, there's that too. It's very romantic and exciting to look back on campfires. But you can still have a campfire. Yes.
Yeah. But will you appreciate it when you're a super nerd, when you connect it to the grid, and you have some, skullcap in in place of the top of your head, and it's interfacing with the inter international language that the rest of the universe now enjoys communication with people? And we're Yeah. Sure. I I think so.
Yeah. I like that part.