Transcription
Yesterday I did a podcast and they asked me what my diet and training looks like. And so I said, "Just know that the way I eat is not the way you should eat, right? So for This is what I do, but it's not necessarily going to give you these results because I'm in a different situation than you are, right? So"
"Totally. Uh it's a It's not a one-size-fits-all."
"Well, last time you were on we talked a bit about your journey. Um so I guess let's just kick-start kick things off there. What What What do you eat now? What are you doing now? What's different from last time we spoke?"
"Um definitely like my my training is I can lift more than ever now. So um Thank you for being such an inspiration in that aspect. Um definitely much higher fat because I am trying to put on weight. I did I go I went to India and some weight loss happened there. People are starving and um I had this issue when we went to Ethiopia to adopt our children when you're in a situation when there's such poverty and hunger. Like I know I'll be able to eat when I get home, you know? And also in this area beef is illegal to eat. Beef is illegal to serve. So that's primarily my diet. Um so they're vegetarians. They're a lot of them are vegans. Uh so food was not I I lost weight. We all lost weight. Everybody on my trip lost weight. Um but it wasn't something that I was trying to do. I was really kind of disappointed when I got home. Um"
"But Is it illegal everywhere in I mean not everywhere in India, right?"
"but in the area we were in, like New Delhi, um Agra and Jaipur, it's it's illegal. We went to those three cities and it's illegal there."
"From like a religious standpoint it's illegal or what?"
"Yeah, cows are sacred. So like cows are just walking around the streets. Pooping and everything. Like they're just in the streets."
"Huh."
"Yeah, so they they honor the cow and um Yeah, it was just a very interesting place to visit. Um I did I really liked it. I think it was cuz the people I was with were so much fun. Um but it was definitely I was hungry when I got home. And so just like increase my protein always stays high. Like that's just a lever I'm not going to lower. But when it came to cuz I had like beef sticks in my carry-on. I was like this is Am I going to get go to prison for this? [laughter] But you know, I just had like a backup of that. Um But um definitely like increasing the fat to put on um you know, some weight. And then also carbohydrates. So I do about I don't know if it's 50 g of carbohydrates usually around my workout. Cuz when I told the world that my journey was to gain weight, my husband, you know, the scientist that he is, he's like, "I'm going to ask you to do something, take it or leave it." Cuz he knows like I'm such a I don't know rebel. And he said, "I think you should add in about 50 g cuz at the time we were carnivore." And he's like, "I think you should add 50 g of carbs." And this is why. Because you're so lean that gluconeogenesis is a real thing. This is what enables people to be carnivore. They They enables people to be ketosis. However, it's a very hard process on the body, right? And if I'm really trying to put on muscle, he's like "You don't have any lean tissue to use. When you're losing weight, you have three fatty acids attached to a glycerol backbone. And that glycerol releases when you lose weight. And you have a little bit of glucose from that glycerol backbone. But he's like, "You don't You don't have that ability. And if you really want to prioritize that protein for building muscle around your workout, just have some watermelon or whatever." So I have watermelon usually. That's my fruit of choice. And I feel better than ever adding in just a little bit of carbs."
"So what does that put your total intake at roughly?"
"Calorie-wise?"
"Yeah."
"I don't know. [laughter]"
"You're doing 50 g carbs and then you know what your grams of protein is fat and fat is?"
"Um my protein is probably 120, 120 g. And then fat, I mean there's really no limit. So um I have you ever tried my carnivore steak sauce?"
"No, but you get me and I'm I'm excited to try it. It sounds delicious."
"It's with brown butter and cream cheese. It's just a bunch of fat and I smother my steak in that. There's no limit. Like I have a little dish, like, you know, a ramekin and I'll eat that whole thing out. Um I eat a lot of full-fat yogurt. Um"
"You doing like fattier cuts of meat in general as well?"
"I do really love a filet."
"Mhm."
"So that's, you know, my downfall. I really like leaner leaner cuts like that. But I do like brisket. We had brisket the other night. Um But that's that's my issue. I have I love leaner cuts and when I make like ground beef stuff, I drain it because I do not like that mouthfeel whatsoever. So I think that's like one of the reasons why I got so lean is because I prefer a chicken breast over a chicken thigh. I just don't like that texture. Um and I don't like the mouthfeel of like greasy meat at all. And a chewy mouthfeel."
"I like the the fatty cuts for sure. Um but my wife's the same way. She likes the leaner cuts. So like she's always trying to have to add fat to it. She put butter on a filet as opposed to getting like a ribeye with the fat already intertwining into it. But man, I I like it all. I eat it all. So it's all good. But your weight training's improving as well. You're lifting weights on a regular basis now?"
"Every single day. I mean, I switch off upper body, lower body, but I'm a creature of habit. So I know I should take like a day off, but it doesn't feel like it's my natural antidepressant, right? So, if things are hitting the ceiling going bad, like getting in the gym just makes the day feel right. Like I get up I'm up like early like you. I'm up before 4:00 so I can get everything in before the family gets up and I do strength training, sauna, red light, all the things all before anybody I have my breakfast right after that and all before anybody wakes up."
"Mhm. That's the way to do it. I mean, if you don't prioritize at the beginning of the day, it just always gets pushed on the back burner."
"I think it's worth it. Cortisol works with cortisol better. Um I don't know. I think training in the morning is ideal. I don't I'd rather do that than I'd rather get up early than watch TV at night."
"Yeah, 100% 100%. As it pertains to gluconeogenesis, there's a lot of, you know, misinformation and confusion around that specifically and like you said it's a natural process. There for a while there it was all about is it demand driven or is it, you know, supply driven? And you can I just speak to that for a bit?"
"Well, in the absence of carbohydrates, you need to make glucose somehow. So, I believe demand driven. And this is again, this is not a bad thing. A lot of people are like, "Oh, too much protein turns into sugar and this and that." That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when you are a carnivore and you're not eating carbohydrates, your body has to go through this process of creating glucose from the protein and that's going to get your brain needs glucose, your thyroid needs glucose, other parts of your body needs glucose and to get that, it's going to get it from somewhere. It's going to get it from protein. And so, some of the protein that you're consuming is not going to go towards rebuilding your muscle, rebuilding your whole entire, you know, your heart tissue, your liver tissue, your hair, skin and nails. It's got to go through that process and I believe it's a bit hard especially on a female's body because I talked to a lot of women who are in their 20s that go on the carnivore diet and it's not a calorie restricted diet. They're not losing weight. It's just for health benefits and they lose their cycle. And I think it has something to do with that process being really difficult. Like it it's a it's a hard process on the body, right? So when they add in, you know, 20, 30, 40 g of carbs, their cycle comes back. So I'm not sure what the science is behind that, but that's my theory."
"Do you feel like there cuz protein's obviously in its getting its like limelight moment right now as well. For a while it was like no protein for fear of gluconeogenesis. Now it's like protein is in everything to the extreme. It's kind of crazy. Um do you have a stance on there being a point of diminishing returns as it relates to excessive protein consumption?"
"Well, so my son started wanting protein shakes, which he was never interested in before. Come to find out his friends they'll drink like two protein shakes a day. And we talked to him about this that you eat real whole food. You eat steak. You eat so much ground beef. You eat things that your friends are not eating, right? And it's much more advantageous to get it through real whole foods. And yeah, sure. If you're doing a couple protein shakes a day, I think it's it's not worth it and it could be maybe harmful. I mean, I'm not afraid of protein, but um when it comes to eating real whole foods, you're not going to overdo the protein. But you're drinking shakes, possibility."
"Yeah. Yeah, I feel like when I I mean I do super high I mean I'm kind of an extremist in nature anyway, so like I can I can consume a ton of food. Like I 8,000 calories the other day, no problem didn't think twice about it. But for me, I could over-consume protein to the point where it hinders my level of fat metabolism from a performance standpoint. If I'm only going to get so much intake to work with, I'll oftentimes like if my energy demands are higher, I'm taking in adequate protein, so preferably opt for more dietary fat. But I know that I'm eating more and putting out more output than the masses for sure."
"Right."
"But I feel like a lot of people they're not consuming adequate protein first and foremost, which is no bueno. Um but then they'll sometimes consume excessive protein relative to other macros, fat, and then they'll have no energy cuz that's not a great substrate for energy. So it becomes this inefficient process for them."
"Right. So here's the thing. Their protein is not a good energy source like you had mentioned. Fat and carbohydrates are. When you're as lean as you are, you don't have your body fat to use for energy. But someone who's 100 lbs overweight, they can use their body fat for energy. So there's where again, it's not a one-size-fits-all."
"Totally. Totally agree. You were speaking at um Meatstock, but you also had a presentation. It was It was one in the the breakout rooms, right? Didn't you speak? Were you on the panel for hormones, peptides, women's health, I forget what all was there."
"that panel. I was in the audience, but I was not on the panel."
"Okay, you were in the audience. So I I tried to get in on that presentation, but I uh had something else going on then, wasn't able to get in on that one. But your latest book spoke deeply on that. So when Craig was on, we talked about that book, and then he's like, you got to get Maria on for the hormones and peptides section cuz she's the one leading the ship on that one. So that's what we're talking about now. How does that How did what you write in that book relate to what the questions being asked and the content being put out in that breakout session consisted like was it a lot of overlap or was it totally different train of thought?"
"I feel it was different in the way that um the peptides are in the biohacking chapter. And I give a lot of free biohacks that people don't even utilize. And I say, "Do not spend a dime on peptides, on red light, on any of these other things, unless you have these three biohack styled in. Because if you are a dumpster fire, you're drinking alcohol, you're not sleeping, you're eating crap, there's no peptide that's going to fix you. I mean where I believe that panel kind of glorified peptides in a way, where I believe it's more important to have your hormones optimized than it is to incorporate peptides. So, if everything else is optimized, yeah, that's just the next biohack that you can do. But, they're expensive. You can spend a lot of money on peptides, and I would just say have everything else in balance, and focus on strength training first. Focus on all the other things first before incorporating those. Does that make sense?"
"Yeah, I completely agree on, you know, focusing on the fundamentals. There's so many people that look for quick fixes and everything. It just pisses me off to no end, but you've been putting out content in this space specifically for how many years has it been now? 20, 25?"
"Yeah."
"A long time. A long time. Longer than most by a long shot. So, when it comes to the discussion around peptides, GOPs, hormones, bioidenticals, like that is all very much so in everybody's conversation right now. If you could just wipe the slate clean, slap everybody, and say, "All right, the blank canvas here, whiteboard time. Let me tell you where the use case for this is."
"Yeah."
"When it makes sense, when it doesn't, assuming you have everything else dialed in. Assuming your sleep is good, your nutrition is good, your training is good. That is all good. What is your workflow in troubleshooting and optimizing next?"
"Um I want to see a hormone panel. I want to see what their hormone levels are. I want to know what their sex hormone binding globulin is. Cuz ironically, the healthier lifestyle that you live, usually the higher that number is. And once"
"case for mine. Mine's elevated."
"Yeah, mine's Yeah. So, what that is is you will have your um total testosterone, your free testosterone, you'll have your um estradiol, progesterone, even men have this. And when you have a high sex hormone binding globulin, it's like pulling all of those numbers down. Okay? So, you can't utilize the hormones that you're making. Does that make sense?"
"Mhm."
"You understand this. But, a lot of people don't even know. I'm like, you don't know your sex Your doctor didn't do this? You need to know this. This is important because if your estradiol's, you know, 30, which is too low anyway, and then you have a high sex hormone binding globulin, you basically are you're not having any bone protection, you're not having any heart protection. Um and the reason why I think hormones would be the first thing to tackle is because we're living in a First of all, a world that's completely different than it was even 100 years ago. A lot of hormone disruptors, microplastics, um just a really toxic world that even though I try to avoid them all at all costs, I'm still getting those hormone disruptors, right? And you'll get these carnivore doctors out there that say just eat a stick of butter and you won't need HRT. Sure, I would say if you eat a keto or carnivore diet with plenty of cholesterol, which cholesterol comes in other foods like lobster, you don't need to eat a stick of butter. But, you might not have symptoms. You might not have hot flashes. You might not have sleep issues. However, you can't feel your brain atrophy, which happens at a certain age. So, even if you're eating this perfect diet, so you're eating a stick of butter um a day, which I I don't recommend for most people, especially when they're postmenopausal and gaining weight. Um you might not have symptoms, but your hormones your ovaries are eventually going to stop putting out hormones, right? So, your brain atrophies, your arteries stiffen without estrogen, uh your bones deteriorate, your body composition is completely going to change. And every single cell of your body has an estrogen receptor. Even ophthalmologists know this. They have uh testosterone eye drops for extremely dry eye and different eye ailments. So, optimizing hormones with HRT and some carnivore experts, doctors, whatever will say, you know, that's so unnatural. I want to do the natural route. Or people say, "Okay, I'll do it for a little bit. But once I'm post-menopause, I just want to stop it." And I'm like, "Why would you want to stop it?" Because once you stop it, you start to have bone loss. You start to have arterial stiffening. You start to have brain atrophy. Like, why would you want to stop this? And if you look into every single ancient civilization, they use some form of HRT. I was just at the new Egyptian Museum in Giza, Egypt, and they had HRT in that museum."
"What were they using?"
"Um adaptogens, herbs, tinctures, different things like that. So, this is not a new phenomenon. And we're living longer than we ever have. So, I believe that women and men deserve better."
"Yeah, it's a it's a tricky topic because so many people in our space kind of want to do things as natural and ancestral as possible. And when you kind of look at all the biohacking moves, you know, peptides, bioidenticals, those all get kind of lumped into that generically speaking. So, it seems very far removed from what is natural. But at the same time, it's like the science is painting a pretty clear picture that from a woman's health standpoint specifically, you"
"You as they go through perimenopausal years, the absence of the estrogen is going to drastically have an adverse response on their bone tissue. Obviously, training, weight training can help hedge against that. But, if you are doing that, you know, the bioidentical hormones seems to be the most viable option to prolong that health span."
"Uh here's the thing, too. Like, a lot of these carnivore doctors, one of them is a fertility specialist, and he's all about prescribing synthetic hormones for fertility. But, yet when it comes to a natural HRT, that's going to kill somebody. That's That's not good, right? So, where is this disconnect that doctors are so quick to prescribe an oral birth control that is synthetic, but yet when it comes to a natural HRT, which is what our bodies are actually making, why is this a bad thing? And again, I believe women deserve better. And unless you are in that situation where things are starting to fall apart, you're starting to have depression, you're starting to have anxiety, you might have sleep issues, um where you can fall asleep, but you can't stay asleep, you deserve better. You become more insulin-resistant without estrogen. So, you're going to be more sensitive to carbohydrates and fat. So, these old tricks I used to do for weight loss may not work anymore. And sure, get in this Go and strength train. But, good luck if you don't have testosterone, because that's another thing that drops with women. People think of testosterone as just this little libido hormone, but no, it's really important for body composition, but it's also important for getting yourself off the couch and getting into the gym. That motivation, that drive, that, you know, wanting to experience life. Um I know this personally, because I was in that situation. And getting on testosterone was a huge game-changer."
"We are definitely living longer, Nate. Do you feel like the rate at which women are going through menopause is happening earlier in their life than it was a few hundred years ago."
"Well, we don't have a lot of data when it comes to that. And um menopause is one day. And it's usually in the 50s somewhere. But s- your hormones start to decline 10 years before that. So, you can be in your late 30s and starting have decline in hormones. So, yeah, I do believe especially like if you look at even our normal lab numbers. So, normal lab numbers, I know you know this, but to the listener, normal labs is just a median of what people are going in to get done, right? So, the lab here in Wisconsin, the normal lab is going to be different from where you are in Tennessee, right? And the levels keep going down when it comes to testosterone specifically in men,"
"Mhm."
"it keeps going down. Does this mean that that's normal? No, this is not I mean, this is not optimal. Maybe it's like normal for society, but this is not optimal. And what's really frustrating is women who are postmenopausal, say they're 60, and they say, "Well, I want to get my hormones done to see if I should get on hormones." Guess what? You're going to be in the normal range for your age because you are postmenopausal. You're going to have basically zero estrogen. Does that mean it's optimal? Nope, but it means that you're normal. So, like a lot of doctors will be like, "Oh, you're in the normal range. You're fine." No, you're not fine."
"Is there a a use case where it would make sense for a female not to get on hormones as they go through perimenopausal years?"
"Not in my opinion. Even if you have um a history of breast cancer, it's actually protective. As long as it's not on oral estrogen. Uh but yeah."
"Oral estrogen's prescribed every single day to a 20-year-old female for birth control."
"Mhm."
"And that's also going to raise your sex hormone-binding globulin."
"Yeah, the the birth control thing is an interesting scenario cuz they don't have there's zero discussion from the doctor about what long-term effects that could potentially bring about. I mean, there's literally zero discussion. And I think honestly that's kind of what's rising causing this rise in like just environmental toxins that we're dealing with like the hormone disruptors and endocrine disruptors like the plastics, the microplastics, what we cook our food in, the conditioners we use, the soaps, the shampoos. Like there's so many things in tandem right now that it's like you can't possibly beat it. You just have to figure out how to live amongst it as best you can, so to speak."
"Right. And I'm not saying everybody has to go on hormones, but if you want to live an optimal life, I highly suggest it."
"What um So, I guess when they go that route, so if if it's established that, you know, getting on hormones, you know, ahead of the game as opposed to once it's too late, quote unquote, is the most proactive way to stay optimized and prolong that performance. Um how often should one like get routine lab work done? Like when they're first getting on this, every 3 months probably?"
"I get every 6 months."
"Every 6 months?"
"Yeah, yeah. Um I would say it's never too late. So, even though you might have the bone loss already happened, you might have some, you know, arterial stiffening, it's never too late. My mom is 78 and just went back on it. Because when she went through menopause, she did get on hormones for a little bit, but the the WHI, which is the biggest tragedy to women in history, um they pulled it right out of, you know, everybody's got taken away. So, she just went back on it at 78 and she feels better than ever."
"Nice. What um what are some other common sense words of wisdom you have for women in that age bracket? Like, obviously if you're getting on the HRT, one thing, but like probably doesn't make sense to go into a massive caloric deficit. Uh obviously if you're morbidly obese, that'd be another conversation, but like that's the time where you really need to prioritize building muscle and bone density and things of that nature."
"Right. So, that's where, you know, strength training is really important. Um protein is going to be key. Your bones are actually mineralized protein. Um you know, a lot of hair loss happens during perimenopause, and your you know, your hair follicles are needing amino acids, so that's going to come from protein. That's going to be a really big game changer for that. Um I forgot what your question was."
"Uh I I mean, you basically answered it. Basically, just don't take that phase in life, that chapter, to like focus on just drastically reducing your intake and not fueling yourself, cuz you want to build up to become more more more resilient, basically."
"I think here's where the big problem is. Instead of focusing on our hormones at 40 40 42 years old, let's say somebody's 42. They have a lot of body changes. They're really frustrated with, you know, the way their body looks. So, they go on a GLP-1."
"That's what I was going for. Yeah."
"So, they go on a GLP-1 rather than getting on hormones. And at this point, when you lower your appetite so much, the last thing you want to do is eat a steak, right?"
"Mhm."
"But yeah, you could eat some Cheetos. W- when you're nauseous, you don't want to eat a steak. So, this is where I feel I understand not everybody's in the situation. They're microdosing, whatever they're doing. And I think you could do it in a proper way with proper guidance and strength training, but"
"[sighs] people love that feeling of not being hungry and not being controlled by food, and so they won't eat for days. And you're going to have compounding hair loss. You're going to have compounding muscle loss, you're going to have compounding issues where HRT could have helped you out with your insulin resistance, your muscle building, and that's where I feel it's more important to be optimized that way."
"Yeah, I think it's unfortunately kind of like a perfect storm, so to speak. Like we we have all the environmental toxins that are new high right now, like we discussed previously. But then you've got, you know, at this stage, 30s, 40s, women have kids. I'm looking at my own life. Like my my wife, we have two kids, you know, they're keeping us busy. She's just turned 34. Like they'll keep us busy for the next 10 years and then some. So like she'll be right in that age bracket as well. So like it's harder to prioritize your own health during that chapter, to eat the right food, to get the food in, to weight train. Like these are all battles that we're personally facing right now. And it's like that's what most of society is going through. So these women put on a little bit more weight, they finally get their kids, you know, pretty self-sufficient. So then they want to take care of themselves, they want to get that weight off. Their hormones are just going in a state of flux, they're down in their testosterone, down in their estrogen. And then rather than focusing on that weight training and eating more food, they're trying to just get, you know, into a smaller pant size. They start jumping on these GLP-1s, and then they're basically just adding gasoline to an already, you know, flame, you know, burning flame. It's like this is the worst thing you could be doing, but this is what the majority of people seem to be doing."
"Right. And I think if you flipped it and in that situation, I understand cuz I was totally in that situation. We home schooled kids, I had a sick husband. Like the last thing I was worried about was what I ate. So I did not eat enough. And I, you know, whittled away to naught and nothing. Then I was like, why strength train? Because I'm already, you know, I'm losing weight. Who cares, [laughter] right? But I was just so weak and just not It's not attractive looking, people, right? It's just not even It's not healthy looking. So, flipping that and focusing on hormones where you can consume more food, you have more metabolism, you can get in the gym, you want to get in the gym, you have the drive for actually getting off the couch and doing something, your depression, your anxiety, and I'm not saying in all situations it goes away, but it really, really helps. The first thing doctors often prescribe is an antidepressant to females in perimenopause. And it's not it's not a dopamine deficiency, it's usually an estrogen deficiency. So, focusing on hormones can be a big game-changer, and sure, there's an investment because a lot of general practitioners are not going to prescribe them. Um like my sister, her doctor's like, "No, no, no, those are going to kill you." So, I had to find, you know, a private doctor that would see her, that would prescribe to her, and um I mean, I paid for it because she's in a situation where she can't. And so, I understand like it's a big out-of-pocket expense, but spending it on that rather than peptides, I think is going to be smart. And I love peptides. I'm just saying like that was going to be a better route. You're going to have better hair, skin, and nails, you're going to have better body body composition, you're going to have better moods, um better sleep. Like it all kind of compounds. It's a big, you know, peeling of the onion."
"Quick interruption to Savage Perspective Podcast here. First of all, thank you for listening. We don't do ads on this show because I don't want to inundate you with a bunch of nonsense products and affiliate links and all that craziness. But, I do want to take a moment to tell you about Keto Brick. You may already be familiar with it, but in case you are not, Keto Brick is my brainchild. I formulated it in 2017 for my first ketogenic competition prep to basically satisfy my own need and scratch my own itch. It's a 1,000 calorie ketogenic meal replacement bar with perfect macros and super high-quality ingredients, high in stearic acid from a fat source that make you following a ketogenic carnivore fat adapted diet and lifestyle way more efficient. So, if you want to streamline your nutrition, head on over to ketobrick.com and stock up. So, speaking on the peptide side of things, you said you love peptides. Flesh that out. Like who Where is the use case where it makes sense? How would you recommend it be done? What does that look like? Actually, before we before we dive into peptides, real quick to kind of round out the hormones, is there any cuz like that's kind of the wild west right now too. Like people can walk in any clinic. I mean, guys especially, it seems like every guy is on some form of HRT whether they need it or not half the time. Um like they'll get one one lab panel drawn, no follow-ups drawn, and they'll be prescribed HRT. Like it's kind of crazy out there. Um but when it comes to the options for hormones, like there's the the pellets, the creams, the injectables. Like is there any wrong way to go with it so people can steer clear of that?"
"So, I would I know some women love the pellets, but I don't recommend them because they originally were designed for a male. And it's such a high dose of testosterone. Some I don't know who which doctor decided to toss this into a female, but once it's in you, it's in you for 3 months and you cannot take it out. And so, sure like the first few women felt great. They told their friends, their friends went on it, and they felt awful. They started having male pattern baldness, facial hair, acne, and you can even grow a clitoris when you have too much too much testosterone. This is not a good situation to be in. But you cannot take that out. You are stuck with it for 3 months. So, once that hair loss happens, it's it's gone. So, doing something else such like a cream where you can slowly work up to that level. Um I do like injectables where you would um do an injectable twice a week. But you have to be comfortable with needles. The only thing about a cream is if you have if you're around young children or little dogs after you put it on, then it could be an issue of cross-contamination. Um, but if you are around kids like later in the day, it's not a big deal. It's going to be washed off by then. It's not going to be absorbed. So, that wouldn't be an issue. Um, so creams, gels, patches, you could do a patch, um, or an injectable."
"What about sublinguals? They're starting to come to the market, too. Like, is there any efficacy around sublinguals?"
"Sublinguals, yes. Um, there's a little bit of um, it's kind of like the wild, wild west. We're not really sure if that sublingual could somehow be um, increasing risk of breast of blood clots or something because it is somewhat of an oral form, right?"
"Mhm."
"So, that's just why I steer clear of it. And they usually have sucrose or glucose or something in there to make them more appetizing."
"Got you. So, the cream, barring the cross-contamination component, and the injectables, as long as you're not afraid of needles, is probably the two best options."
"Right. And like you said, you know, men don't even have to really They just fill out a form online and get testosterone. Once you get on testosterone, your body is going to stop producing it."
"Mhm."
"So, if you go on a low dose, that just means you're going to have low testosterone for the rest of your life because you're no longer making it, you're taking a low dose. You thought that, oh, I was making this much. I'm just going to take a little bit more to boost it a little bit. No, no, no. Your levels go back your natural capabilities are going to go back to zero, and you're just doing this low dose. So, it's like shooting yourself in the foot. Unless you are at the age where, you know, your 50s, 60s, noticing some changes in your body composition, and your testosterone is low, that's when it's a good idea to venture into that, but not before. Not before."
"And there's pretty much no benefit to getting off of it. Uh especially if you're like a like guys that get on TRT and then try and get off of TRT, like I had one guy on the podcast, he's like, man, you you would have to claw it from my dead cold fingers, you know, like it's not going to happen."
"Once women get on HRT, they say, you will you you will I will have that in the grave with me. Because they feel so much better. Right? So, why would you not want to feel optimal?"
"Yeah, makes sense. All right, now switching to the peptides. Um there's a whole range of peptide options now. I mean, it's like there's a new version, new new agonist every single week, it seems. What uh what's your stance on that? Kind of give like a high-level overview of what is out there available currently? Uh cuz there's you got like the BPCs and whatnot, then you've got the GOPs, so yeah, kind of just shed some light on that, if you would."
"Do you know what the first peptide was?"
"Uh enlighten me."
"Insulin."
"Insulin, okay, makes sense."
"We all kind of not all, but a lot of people poo-poo uh peptides. And it's like insulin was a life-saving, life-changing medication for type 1 diabetics, right? It went from being a death sentence to being able to live a healthy life."
"Mhm."
"So, peptides, your body actually makes these peptides. Um there's something like MOTS-c, that's a mitochondrial peptide. You make a lot of that when you exercise. So, this is something where now you can inject it, have a lot of mitochondria benefits. Um there's a peptide for everything. I love them for um Crohn's, colitis, diverticulitis, different gut disorders. Um that's what I usually like BPC 157 and KPV for. They're very anti-inflammatory, and they they heal that gut lining. Some peptides they can be oral, but the bioavailability is obviously going to go down rather than an injection. Um but there's some there's some for your skin health, there's some for human growth hormone, there's some for weight loss, there's some for and there's more than just GLP-1s when it comes to weight loss. There's like testofencing which um that was originally for Parkinson's, but they found that it lowered appetite so much um that people take it for weight loss, but here's the thing, it's like you're on speed, you don't sleep the next night. And it like the last in your body I think three or four days. Uh don't quote me on that, but there's there's peptides for just about everything. Like I'm having um a little bit of a histamine um response when I consume certain foods, and I want to lower that inflammation, so I just started um KPV protocol. And so far, so good."
"Is there like cuz there's not really any long-term studies on any of these most recent peptides because they are so recent? Like is there Do you fear at all about the the long-term implications, or is it pretty pretty negligible?"
"Well, it depends on how I mean some peptides have been out there for quite a quite a bit of time. Um obviously insulin is one of them. And the studies are actually showing cancer protective. Like even have you heard of Retatrutide?"
"Mhm."
"Okay. That one a lot of studies came out the last few weeks about how it's cancer protective. It's anti-inflammatory, it's really helpful for SIRS. Anybody dealing with chronic inflammatory syndrome, so doing like a low microdose um where it's not even affecting your appetite, but it's just lowering that inflammation can be very And I'm not trying to talk anybody into these. I'm just saying they're for I feel very comfortable using these peptides for myself. And I've seen seen the benefits."
"Is there What would the downside be? Or is it just only potential upside? Like is there"
"Oh, yeah."
"See, I would imagine it from like a psychological downside more so than anything. Like people just have this quick fix push the button mentality, I think, already. And I think if peptides allow that to be even more so amplified, it could be detrimental."
"Oh, 100% and there's actually um Do you know what anhedonia is?"
"Uh no."
"It's where So Reda, tirzepatide, they hit the um dopamine receptor where nothing really pleases you anymore. So, this is good for things like alcohol addiction, drug addiction, shopping, gambling. It just you don't get that dopamine hit anymore. But, it's also affecting people in life, in everyday life. Like things that they used to love to do they don't get that dopamine hit anymore. So, relationships fall apart. Um their moods are just kind of lower. So, just being aware doesn't happen to everybody, but it is definitely a possibility. Um And honestly, if you you go on these, you want to make sure your food is dialed in. Start with that because if you're just taking these as a crutch and then you have to go off them eventually. And most people gain all the weight back. And that is because they didn't learn how to eat properly, they didn't learn how to train properly, they were just using that as a crutch. And so, instead of seeing it as a crutch, I would say see it as a tool to change your taste buds, to change your eating habits, to change your training habits. Um because on the flip side there's a lot of people that go on the GLP-3 and their desire for doing all the bad things stop. Their desire for getting in the gym train it changes just their whole entire life. They focus on getting work done. They can focus on good things in their life rather than their bad habits. Does that make sense?"
"Yeah, totally. So, like where is the hormones maybe ideally part of like the daily routine that's just a constant that doesn't really change once it's dialed in. Um, the peptides would be more like goal specific. What I mean, they would be interchangeable based off of the specific goal cuz as goals change as lifestyle factors change, the appropriate peptide would also change."
"Well, here's the thing. Like there's hundreds and hundreds of peptides. If I gave you a list of all these great peptides, you're like, "Oh, I want to do that one. I want to do that one. I want to do that one." And you have a list of 15 that you want to do at one time. That's a terrible idea. Cuz you don't know what's doing what, right? So, I would say pick one goal. Is it mitochondria optimization? Is it gut healing? Is it hair growth? Whatever it is, pick one and we're going to do that because most peptides are cycle. You you don't do them forever, right? You have to do, you know, they're all different. So, like I'll do epitalon and that's a 10-day cycle um maybe twice a year."
"So, why why are they cycled? Is it is it kind of similar to hormones in that your body builds up a tolerance to them and they become less efficacious or what's the cycling component?"
"Yes. So, you don't want to ground downgrade your receptors. So, if you do like a human growth hormone peptide, you don't want to downgrade your receptors. So, you could do it for eight weeks and then you're going to take a four-week break or an eight-week break. Um, just keep those uh receptors sensitized. But here's the thing. Like if you're 50 or 60, I wouldn't even waste your money on growth hormone peptides because your pituitary gland is putting out very little anyway."
"Yeah. Are most peptides kind of following that eight-week cycle?"
"No, not all of them. Um, like I said the epitalon, uh pinealon, those are very short cycles, um maybe 10 days, and you would do that once a year or twice a year. That's it. Um and that helps lengthen telomeres."
"Are there many people cuz I feel like I've I've talked to several people that are on like the GLP-1s, for instance, and there's never any discussion around the cycling off with them. It's like they're just on it and then they never get off of it, it seems."
"Um that one people do often do forever, but their receptors are going to desensitize. So, they are not going to get the lower hunger as much anymore. They're not going to get the appetite suppression, the cravings reduced as much as they were would if they would cycle it. And you don't just go completely off when you're on that. So, if say you're on a like a 4 mg dose, which is much lower than what Eli Lilly suggests. So, if you're on a 4 mg dose, you're not going to just stop it. You would lower it to 2 mg the next week, you know, maybe 1 mg, slowly titrate off, and then after a certain period of time, slowly titrate that in back."
"Got you. Got you. What's the uh What's the future look like in this space? I mean, do we even know? Like it seems, like I said, there's this seems to be the wild west, and then there's seems to be new compounds coming out weekly, it seems. Do we have any clue as to what's going to happen? What's What's the um bureaucratic red tape going to look like from a you know, medical establishment standpoint? Like how are they going to get involved? What's What's going to be the big picture scope, in your opinion?"
"Um Well, I I do know there's a couple of new peptides on the radar. There's like a GLP-5 out there now. Not not necessarily out there, but it's in the works. Um there's a GLP-4, which adds a myostatin inhibitor. And I know you are familiar with myostatin inhibitors where myostatin inhibits you to be able to build a certain amount of muscle, right? And so these myostatin inhibitors, I feel like, well, your heart tissue is going to continue to grow."
"And"
"Use that would not be safe to continue to grow. So I think that can be quite dangerous. Um but again, this would cause the muscle loss equation to be maybe diminished or at least lowered um as they take a GLP-3 or whatever it is. Um I think"
"And on that note, like is there's no way to like test for this, right? It's like when I'm thinking of like natural bodybuilding, all this stuff is outlawed. But like in multiple sports that have like banned substances, like you wouldn't be able to even really test for a peptide after certain length of time, right?"
"Yeah, I mean, I would how do they even test if you're on like Mounjaro or something?"
"I mean, in my federation, they do they do a urine analysis test, but they also polygraph everybody. So like they've got that going for it, but it's like people can cheat on a polygraph, too, you know."
"Yeah, I've never had one done, but interesting. Um I think the future I mean I think it's one out of six people are on a GLP."
"Yeah."
"And that's it's just started."
"Yeah."
"And a lot"
"It's"
Kind of crazy. A lot of people I know are not on it for weight loss. They're on it for SERMs, they're on it for inflammation, they're on it for other addictions. So I think it's, I think it's a very interesting tool. I don't think we should bash it, but I think we should be very careful about how we recommend it, how people do a protocol with it, um, and things like that.
So there is some studies showing that the GLP-3 has more muscle loss because of the glucagon action. So, when you have that speeding up of metabolism and you're not eating that much, what happens? Right? There's more, there's more tissue loss.
And I feel like a lot of that, too. And correct me if I'm wrong, but those studies are relatively short. So, like they're flushing out a lot of fluid, so their lean mass is dropping, not necessarily their skeletal muscle tissue.
Right, exactly. Um, so, but we just don't really know. But, it does make sense that if you're speeding up the metabolism and your appetite is so low that you're not consuming enough protein and you're not strength training.
Yeah, you're going to lose muscle, for sure.
Yeah, just like any weight loss program.
Yeah.
So.
Yeah, it's uh I mean, I'm not trying to poopoo anything. I, at the end of the day, I just want people to, you know, do all the fundamental stuff first and foremost. Like, it's and you got to treat peptides like you would any supplement, like any like creatine, pre-workout, caffeine supplement. Like, that is supplemental to all the other fundamental stuff.
Right.
You look at it through that lens, you're going to be way better off than if you look at it as like a foundational pillar.
It's not the foundation, and that's why I'm very um gentle about how I I don't think, you know, peptides are not going to do anything if you don't have your foundation right.
Yeah. Yep, very true, very true. It is interesting in my sport, though, like natural bodybuilding specific, cuz like it's such a shade of gray. I mean, like the federation takes a very hard-nosed stance, like you don't do anything. Their, their banned list is miles long, it seems. But, like there's so much that people can take now and get away with. There's a new name for everything. Like, there's just I don't know how you could possibly keep up, basically.
Yeah, it is unreal how I mean, AI is just going to take this to the whole next level.
Yeah. Yeah, it's uh It is interesting. It's It's interesting because like when we got I mean, when I started putting out content in the keto carnivore space way back in 2014-15, which is not nearly as long as you have, the rate of adoption for people knowing what keto and carnivore was, maybe they've done it themselves or knew somebody that was on it, like it was pretty quickly. I mean, it it it seemed like over the course of like 3 years, it grew grew in prevalence really profoundly. Whereas now, comparing that like people's awareness around GLPs, like everybody went from not knowing it at all to knowing it pretty extensively to some degree.
Well, here's something that I want people to really sit with. So, these GLPs slow gastric emptying, right? And most people are eating Well, here's another thing, too. Um And I've seen this at events I've been at, people that are on now a GLP 2, 3, whatever it is, they no longer eat carnivore, they no longer eat keto cuz guess what? They don't have to. And they'll still lose weight.
Mhm.
Then you're choosing foods that are not necessarily healthy, probably have glyphosate, GMOs, and those foods sit in your gut longer than they're supposed to. And when you have those GMO foods in your gut, they eat little holes just like they do a bug. That's the whole thing about GMOs, right? They eat holes in the bug stomach and they blow up. They eat holes in our stomach. And especially if it's sitting there longer, I think autoimmune issues will be on the rise. But this is why even if you're on one, you have to be very choosy about what you're putting in your body because that is sitting in your gut longer than it should.
Very good point. Yeah, I was I think I've told this story on the podcast before, but I was getting a haircut the other day and the barber, you know, was asking me what I do and talking about nutrition. She's like, "Yeah, I've lost about 20 lb on a GOP-1." I'm like, "That's great. What are you doing now with your diet?" She's like, "Well, I get my protein from peanut butter. I'm only eating a sleeve of Oreos instead of two sleeves of Oreos." And I'm just like shaking my head. I'm like, "This is the problem right here."
[laughter]
But that's I've even seen people that were strict carnivore, strict keto, no longer eat that way because they do not have to. They can have the french fries once in a while and not gain any weight, so they'll have them. And it's like, "That's not what these were meant to do."
I think the obviously one's weight is a massive component. Um, I mean, I do not subscribe to the health at any weight philosophy. Like, you know, you have to have a healthy weight for sure. But you want the composition of that weight to be right and people should just focus on performance first and foremost. And that may not equate to the lightest weight that you can achieve. And I think when you view the lens through the lens of performance and health and, you know, function as opposed to just fitting into a smaller dress or pant size or seeing a lighter number on the scale every morning, you're going to look better. You're going to feel better. And that will dictate and shape your day-to-day actions in a much more positively influenced way.
Well, I'm glad you brought that up. I'm going to go back to my journey and that I got a mental and I don't want to cry. I got a mental high off of seeing that scale go so low. But I looked terrible. Right? My I couldn't I couldn't even get up from a squat without weights. Like, just getting up from the floor. And I mean, I was down to 82 lb. And I would get such a high off of seeing that number, but so I I mentioned this before, but now I use the scale as data. So, it's not the end all be all, but I do want to, you know, see where I'm at and see how the progress is going. And I have my favorite low-cut like dresses, shirts that I don't wear anymore because I'm still too bony here, and it's not attractive. Nobody wants to see that. And I use the scale as, "Okay, that number that you're at now is still too low." So, I think that a lot of people are afraid of the scale, but it is a truth-teller on both ends. And I just want people to know that. I mean, a lot of people reach out to me and say, "You know, I'm in your situation and it's so hard to gain weight. It's such a mental game." And I'm like, "I I get it. It really is." But everything's better. My hair is better, my skin is better, my strength is better, my moods are better, I sleep better. I mean, I would sleep curled up in a ball face down because I'd be so hungry.
It's um I'm glad you're talking about this and I've talked about this and it's like cuz like in the bodybuilding world, we pretty much all competitors struggle with that to some extent because they see themselves absolutely freaking shredded. They see themselves super lean. Like I literally was the leanest man alive in 2023. Like it's it's a it's a high that you get from that.
Mhm.
But that like I will never suggest that that's the healthiest version of me. You know, like my my testosterone was down. Everything was hormonally down regulated for sure. My metabolism was down regulated and I was hungry. Um and so many women, especially, have a hard time because society puts all this pressure on them to be lighter, leaner, and, you know, weigh less weigh less. And for me, like flipping that script is it's hard for me personally, it's hard for my clients, it's hard for everybody that's trying to actually view the other end of the spectrum as the proxy for progress being a positive thing, but like seeing that scale weight increase and that being a positive, there's a chapter in your life where that is paramount, that is key. And like if you're building more muscle,
Mhm.
then you should see the scale weight increase. You will see better metabolism, better hormonal function, better thyroid health, you'll sleep better, you'll recover better, you'll have more libido, everything will improve in that context. So, we just have to view life through that lens and have this, you know, healthy balance yin-yang relationship between building and cutting, which is why I would argue that everybody should view themselves as a bodybuilder in that context.
Yeah. No, that totally makes sense. And it's just it's hard in this society, but I mean, a while back I had a massage and the therapist, um, there's a little bit of a language barrier. She was from a different country and she's like, "Do you want to be this thin or are you sick?" And it was really eye-opening. Like, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, right?" Like, I was feeling pretty good about myself, but obviously I'm not there yet.
Well, I mean, you're lifting more than you have been, so that's, I mean, obviously it's it's not body fat that's moving that weight. I mean, you're you're building muscle, so that's promising. So, you should be seeing the scale weight increase. You're eating more food, you're not trying to cut calories um, or intake, you know, so like you're doing all the right things.
Thanks. Yeah.
At peace with it mentally, though? Like, that's that's the thing.
I need to just keep going, right? I'm at peace with it, but I just need to keep going cuz like I told you, I don't like fatty cuts. I like the leaner cuts. Um, it's just like my palate. I don't know if I've forced myself to crave certain foods, but, um, like I will never eat a stick of butter. I'll never drink heavy cream. That's just not I won't do that. I don't like it. Um, so yeah, I don't know.
Yeah. Well, you like lobster? I mean lobster does taste pretty good with butter, you know.
Right. Or crab legs, you know.
Yeah, crab legs. All that seafood is good stuff. And you got an abundance of it where you're at. Not in Wisconsin, but when you're in Hawaii.
Right. Yeah, we we eat our body weight in seafood for sure.
Absolutely. Well, you're you're an inspiration. You're a light, Maria. It's awesome to see your journey tran- transpire over the years and just where you're going with things. Um I'm always here for you if you ever need to vent or anything, you know, like I'm rooting for you for sure. Um what what what's got you excited in the future? You just got the book out. I know that was a labor of love for the both of you. Um this is book I book number 27 now or something crazy?
Not quite 27. I think it's 24, but I even lost count for a while.
That's crazy.
So, we just we are both really hard workers and we love to work. We love our job. We love searching for new knowledge and I think that's where I get a little sad with some of the dogmatic uh people in the community where they're not open to learning and they're very stuck in what they believe. And I think it's important to keep learning new ways and keep learning new things about the the body cuz I used to think, you know, higher ketones meant better fat burning. Guess what? Does not mean that. Um and we have to be willing to learn and be able to say I was wrong.
Yeah. Yeah, you got to always be on the pursuit of knowledge and you got to be willing to experiment and just like have an open mind. I mean, I love the podcast cuz it forces me to be open-minded. Like I intentionally bring on people that I think I may be disagreeing with. And often times there's a lot more common ground than not, but it just keeps me open and receptive. I I feel like we all need to be open and receptive.
You're always experimenting. I don't know how you did all those sardines. I'm not eating one.
I do not recommend it. I mean, I like sardines, but yeah, 18 cans a day isocaloric intake of sardines. My arsenic more than quadrupled. Did you see that?
I did not see that.
Yeah, it went from like three to 12 over a 5-day span.
5 days?
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
Another reason not
I did that so people wouldn't have to, basically.
Another reason not to eat sardines. I'm a foodie, so I'm I'm not I'm not eating them.
Yeah, I don't blame you. I am I am tired of sardines myself, for sure.
Oh, but things that I'm excited about. I do retreats around the world, and it's not to make money. It's just because I love making new friends and I love seeing the world. And so, we're going to Croatia in September, Thailand in January, Nepal and Bhutan in March, and more to come.
I need to go to one of these retreats cuz I'm all about traveling as well. And is are they relatively family-friendly?
Oh, yeah. I mean, it depends. I will let you know which ones are more Like, we just went to India. I wouldn't recommend bring kids there. It's too intense. But, no. They're They're so much fun, and I think the biggest advertisement for them is most people that go on one, they go on multiple. So, I have a lot of people that have been on over five retreats because they have made so many friends, they had so much fun, and it's a safe place to eat. There's no judging. People can eat whatever they want. But, if you want to stay keto carnivore, you're going to have the best food. Like, I'm making my flourless chocolate torte in Croatia. Yeah, there's
Unless you go to India where it's illegal to have beef or poultry.
That's That was They reached out to me. They said, "Let's do a keto retreat in India." And my rule is to say yes to everything. So, I'm so glad I went. I'm so glad I went. It was really a great experience. It was just not great for bulking.
Well, I would love to go to one, for sure. I've been to family. Let me know a good family one locationally, and we'll get something booked in the calendar, for sure.
Awesome.
Maria, I'm sure everybody knows where to find you, but in case they don't, where should they look?
Uh, easiest place is ketomaria.com.
And the book, the title of the new book is what?
The Art of Metabolic Health.
Beautiful. Beautiful. Appreciate the advanced copy on that. I've been enjoying it thus far, and I appreciate both you and Craig coming on doing a deep dive on it, for sure.
We appreciate you so much. We better hunt this year.
Yes, I'm all about it. I got to fill the freezer. I got the freezer full of a bunch of pork. We just raised four pigs. I got a little bit of lamb left. I'm about to get some more lamb, but I need I'm about out of elk and venison, so we need more of that.
Freezers do you have?
How many chest freezers? Uh, I think five.
Oh, five? I thought we
Yeah, we got a bunch.
Wow. I mean, we have three chest freezers, but then we have three fridges also with freezers. So,
The more the merrier. The more the merrier.
Well, I've got to put all the meat and the seafood somewhere.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, we'll do we'll get a hunting trip lined up as well. I'm looking forward to it, Maria.
That was good. Thanks, Craig.
Take care.