The Role of the Holy Spirit in Scripture | John Bergsma w/ Dr. Mary Healy

Rano Contel Mesa said, "Sometimes we pray, come Holy Spirit, come Holy Ghost, and but in effect we're saying, and please sit in the back and behave yourself." So come, but not too close. Come and don't do anything.

Um, but if we really mean it, we really want him to come, we're giving up control to the Holy Spirit. We're saying, "Holy Spirit, take over my mind." And that includes, "Show me my illusions. Show me my um puffed up ego. Show me my hidden fears. Um, show me the the things inside that I haven't wanted to deal with."

Dr. Mary Healey, it is wonderful to have you on the show.

Thanks so much for having me, Dr. John B.

No, that it is, the honor and the benefit is all mine. Uh, no, no, I should take at least some of it.

So, just we're we're all so tickled that you uh you know, made the time to come down uh all the way from Detroit um to uh to hang out with us uh for this afternoon and uh enlighten us on uh a whole bunch of different matters.

I don't know about that, but we'll try.

Grace of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, absolutely. And that's one of the one of our big topics. We're going to get into that uh hopefully and and u let you uh discourse somewhat on very important topic which is the role of the Holy Spirit in scripture uh which could be you know a whole book series uh on that uh and we'll get to that but um as always on the show um Dr. Healey, we like to begin with the guest uh sharing their personal spiritual journey.

And uh this will be uh wonderful for me because I do not know uh your whole personal journey. I know bits and pieces.

Um, but uh but I'd love to hear you know, how how did you get to be where you are? Um, uh one of the most respected uh Bible scholars, Catholic Bible scholars in America. How does such a thing happen? And uh where did your faith life begin? You know, take us back to your childhood and walk us through the steps.

Yeah, I'm still wondering.

Um, well, I grew up in a Catholic family, but it was a Sunday Catholic family. Okay. Um, at the beginning, the faith wasn't a huge part of our life. We went to church on Sunday. That was about it.

I do remember when I was about 5 years old, we were staying in a cottage on Fire Island, New York.

Okay. And I woke up before anybody else woke up and I saw a sunrise that was unbelievably spectacular.

Wow.

The sky just filled with all these colors that were changing and it was just magnificent. And I think my little heart fell in love with the God who made that.

Really?

At that moment.

Mhm.

At at age five.

At age five. Yeah. Still just a a profound memory like you know who could create so much beauty for us.

Mhm. And then um I think when I was about six, I had a dream where um I was I had fallen down and Jesus came and picked me up and he kind of came over from around behind me or on the side and I only saw his arm um and he was wearing a watch. So it wasn't biblically realistic, but um he picked me up and that's all I remember. But my mom tells me that I ran downstairs and said, "Mommy, Jesus must love me so much." So again, I think the Lord touched my heart at that age.

Um, and then when I was 12, my parents both had huge conversions through Cercio weekends, weekend retreats where um, you know, it's designed to help people encounter Christ. And right, they really did and it radically changed their lives and they became um really uh authentic disciples of Christ and um we really saw the changes in their life and the new joy, the peace, the freedom.

And by we you mean the siblings and how many of you?

I'm the oldest of four.

Okay. Okay.

Yeah. And we grew up in mostly in Connecticut. New York and Connecticut.

Okay. What part of Connecticut? Because I lived four years in New London.

Oh, okay. Westport.

Westport on the coast.

Yeah. Very nice.

Yeah. Yeah. I love Connecticut.

Yeah. It's beautiful. It is.

So, um, they uh became deeply committed to the Lord and and I was all my siblings and I were deeply impacted by that. And I became involved in in retreats in high school and lots of Bible studies. I loved Bible studies. There was a time when I went to three a week.

Wow. Was this a Catholic high school?

No, I went to public high school, but it was through the parish.

Okay.

And through a team of adults who were involved in various retreats and many of them in the charismatic renewal.

Okay.

And so, um,

So your parish was sponsoring Bible studies?

Yes. I don't know how officially they were connected by with the parish, but probably to some degree. And they were held in homes.

Okay. So I just enjoyed the fellowship, you know, going to different homes of friends and um

And this was in the '70s?

You really want me to?

Um, well, I graduated in high school uh from high school in '82. So this would have been late '70s, early '80s.

'70s, early '80s. Okay. Okay. Interesting. Because that was not a great time for catechesis.

No. Looking back, we were so resource poor compared to what Catholics have today. The abundance of riches, the embarrassment of riches they have today.

Right?

No, we had very little.

Um, uhhuh.

But there was a lot of hunger.

Yeah.

And um I and my friends as as teens, we really wanted to know the Lord. We we loved studying scripture.

Wow. Um, but

You're friends from high school and uh all Catholics and you're like, "Yeah, we want to know the Bible."

This is very interesting because I, you know, I had Catholic friends, you know, growing up in Hawaii where I went to high school. And um they went to CCD class, but didn't get much, you know, it was really thin.

Yeah. And um, you know, and there I would not describe them as being hungry for scripture.

Yeah. Well, it I I wouldn't say it was the majority of kids in my parish or in my high school by any means.

Found kindred spirits.

Yeah. Through these retreats, Emmaus retreats.

Sure.

Um, you know, it awakened faith in kids and those who were involved really wanted to learn more. But I do remember being very disillusioned at a few points when it turned out um many of them were not living a life in keeping with their faith.

Sure.

Um, you know, smoking pot on retreats and drinking.

Okay.

Things like that. Yeah, that happens.

Yeah. Uh, so I'd say my faith was growing, but it wasn't super strong. Um,

I went to college at Notre Dame and it was similar there.

At least, um, for from my perspective, it wasn't a super strong environment for faith there. They did have daily mass in the dorms, many of the dorms and things like that. I didn't go to daily mass. I went to weekly mass. Sorry. They had weekly mass in the dorms and daily mass many places on campus.

Sure.

Um, but by the time I graduated, I I really I knew that I could never find happiness without God.

Okay.

I knew that much. I mean, that's a pretty important thing to know.

Yeah. Thank God.

And um I also knew by that point that one place where I could find God was Stubenville, Ohio.

Okay. Because um my younger sister went to college here and she had a dramatic conversion and transformation of her life. She was uh a sophomore when I graduated. Yeah. At Franciscan University and um, you know, when the family visited her on campus, I saw a campus alive in the Holy Spirit.

Right.

And one of her classmates was a guy named Dave Pavanka.

Okay. You might know him.

Father Dave Pavanka, president. Okay.

Um, so I I decided to come here for graduate school because I I knew I could find God here.

Okay. And uh back then they only had two graduate programs.

Okay. Theology. I think it was theology and Christian ministry or education.

Okay. And I knew I didn't want to do education.

Okay. So I chose theology by default because that's the only other option.

Seriously? What did you What did you major in in at Notre Dame?

Poli sci and government.

Oh, you're Oh my gosh. Really?

Yeah. Oh goodness. So, so you didn't go to Notre Dame with the intention of getting into a theological career?

Not at all. Not at all.

Okay. So, what were you envisioning that you were going to work in?

I actually wanted to be a I wanted to be a medical missionary.

Okay. Okay.

Yeah. I didn't know that even as a freshman in college, but by junior year, I really wanted to be a medical missionary.

Medical missionary. Okay. That's a noble.

Yeah. Yeah. So, it's interesting what God has done with my life. That's not exactly that, but

Well, you're not healing similarities, right?

Yeah. I travel all over the world. I pray for healing.

That's right.

Different kind of missionary.

Medical missionary. Yeah.

Um, so, but by the time I graduated, I I could tell that medicine wasn't for me.

Okay.

Um, so, that's why I I decided to come here. I really didn't know what I wanted to do with my life.

Um, but decided to come here. And

Yeah, many many people go to graduate school not knowing.

Yes.

Exactly what they want to do with their life.

It's true. It's true.

Myself as well. Uh,

I I Yeah, I went to do a doctorate in scripture because I was having theological difficulties with Protestantism and didn't know what to do with myself. I had too many theological doubts to receive ordination, which is what I had been preparing for.

Wow.

Uh, for so many years. And then ended up going to Notre Dame just to kind of uh stall for time and have something on my CV so I didn't have a big blank on my CV. Um, get a doctor of scripture anyway, but um, but your story is what's important here.

Yeah. So in a way you could say it was stalling for time here um yeah, I didn't know what I was doing.

So you had two graduate programs you just wanted to be at Franciscan and you didn't want to do education so well I'll do theology.

Mhm. Wow. That is just remarkable how the Lord works.

How he is. Goodness. Yeah.

Yep. So really from the start here, um the Lord dramatically changed my life. It was like a second conversion, a deeper conversion.

Wow.

Um, I was so hungry for God. I was just soaking up the spiritual life.

Um, there was a rosary group I prayed with every day. There was daily mass that practically all the students went to. Daily adoration that lots of people went to. Um, and we were really encouraged back then to have a daily time of prayer with scripture.

Wow.

We didn't call it Lexio Divina back then. I mean, of course, the church did, but we didn't even know that term, but reading scripture in conversation with God. So, so I just soaked it all in and the Lord did so much in my life then.

Now, was that um well, but you had you had gone to Bible studies um in in high school. So, you'd had some experience with devotional reading of scripture that had been part of your life.

At at what you know, did you did you start like a daily practice uh earlier or when when you came to Franciscan was that when you began to develop kind of?

It was only when I came to Franciscan. Yeah. I I definitely lacked that discipline in my life. I I really lacked any spiritual discipline. I had never really been taught spiritual disciplines. Yeah. And that's why I think my faith was weak.

Um, sure.

When I came here and and then was greatly greatly strengthened here because I learned that.

And um back then, Father Francis Martin,

Okay.

Would teach periodically on campus. He lived in Maryland, but he would commute here. And um he was famous for asking students randomly as he walked across campus and he saw somebody he knew. So what did the Lord say to you in your prayer time this morning?

So you better be prepared to answer that. And sometimes students would see him coming. They'd cross to the other side of the street to avoid it, you know, if they hadn't had their one hour with with Jesus in the Bible.

Right?

But it was the culture. It was it was the culture of campus that you you have that daily time.

Sure.

Personally with the Lord and you expect to hear from him.

You know, that's a beautiful thing. Um, you know, what you're touching on there is how important having a supportive culture is.

Absolutely.

For for individuals to develop their faith life. So, when you're living in an environment where people are going to ask you, you know, what did you get out of the word today? you know, it creates a, you know, kind of a cultural expectation and a a rising tide lifts all boats and um that's that's so important. And uh, you know, that's that's not present in so many places around the country, around the world, within the church.

Some places it is present. That's great.

Um, but yeah, we need to think in terms of that. How do we develop that in in our parishes? is how do we develop that in in uh institutions of learning whether they're Catholic high schools or Catholic universities and so on.

Absolutely. I can't even overestimate the importance of that kind of culture of conversing about what the Lord has shown you or revealed to you, what you hear him say about your life, especially for young adults who are figuring out their life.

Right?

To um for that kind of conversation to be normal.

Right?

In retrospect was a huge grace for me. I probably never would have developed lifelong habits of prayer and study of the word without that.

Sure. Sure.

But uh yeah, that that ought to be present in every parish, every Catholic high school and college.

Yeah, we should pray for the day that that comes about. But uh thankfully, you know, that was here at at Well, I'm saying here we're at the St. Paul Center, but at in Stevenville, okay. Broadly speaking, at Franciscan University, you encountered that. You encountered that culture and that culture was life transformative.

And so you're you're doing you did the was it a two-year degree, a two-year MA. And

Yeah. Um, back then it was a lighter degree than it is now. And it was just a year and a half for me.

Okay. I I kind of compressed it a little bit. So it was a year and a half. But one thing I have to mention because otherwise I'd be leaving out the most important thing is the Holy Spirit.

Okay. He was so so present on campus and of course that's still the case. Um, but back then it was so tangible and practically all the students went through what was called a life in the spirit seminar.

Okay. Which is seven weeks to learn more about the Holy Spirit, how he works in our lives, how to how to hear God's voice, how to um how to live in the power of the Holy Spirit. And then you receive prayer for baptism in the Holy Spirit. So I went through that in my first semester and

It's not that anything um huge happened experientially when I was prayed over, but something absolutely evident did happen that became very clear in in the following days and weeks that um the gospel became far more real to me.

Sure. The love of God the Father, the personal uncontestral love of God the Father for me became very real. Um, and then over time the power of the Holy Spirit for holiness like it's not about my self-striving and mostly failing. You know, it's it's not about my effort. It's about his power at work in me. That all um dramatically changed the whole way I I saw myself, the way I lived my life.

And the way I read scripture.

Sure.

So, I'm I'm eternally profoundly grateful for that.

Wow. So formative. So, in in that process, were you starting to discern that maybe you were called to be a theologian, to go further in theology, etc.?

Well, I can pretty clearly pinpoint that because um after my first year here, I took a summer course with Father Francis Martin.

Okay. Uh, three-week course on the Gospel of Mark.

Okay. And it totally blew my mind. It was just such an amazing course. And

What what about it?

Well, I just discovered that the depth and the richness like every line of scripture has this inexhaustible depth and it connects with so many other things and it speaks directly to our lives. And the more you read it, the more you you see. And um how you know more more connections that you discover.

Yeah, this is interesting because Mark is often considered well it's relatively simple as as the gospels go and so but but even in Mark you know I know that's that's a cliche but

But even in Mark you were finding all of these and and

Father Martin was very good at not only showing the literary illusions and how you know prophecies are being fulfilled and and referenced through you know uses of phrases that Mark will skillfully do, but also like bringing that home to a personal application and

Right.

In our daily daily lives and

Right. And so

But even more than that, it's not only a matter of of seeing um its literary intricacy although that is amazing or its application to life and that is amazing but its power. It's spiritual power to give us life.

Okay.

To bring us from darkness, confusion, discouragement, sadness, guilt, whatever it might be, into freedom and peace and joy and and knowledge of God and becoming who we really are, who we were created to be. I think I was kind of discovering all that that this word really is unlike any other word.

Okay.

And as fathers of the church, like St. Augustine pointed out, you know, in terms of literature, most of it is not great literature.

Uhhuh.

Um, you know, Koine Greek is just street Greek. It's

Street Greek.

Poor grammar sometimes.

Um, especially in Mark.

Yeah. Especially in Mark.

Um, you know, so literally it doesn't compare with classical Greek literature.

Right?

But spiritually there's no comparison of these human earthly works to the power of the word of God.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It makes me makes me think of uh what St. Paul says that you know I didn't come with great eloquence but I came with power, right?

Yes. Demonstration of spirit and power.

Yeah. Yeah. So you're experiencing that through Father Martin's expositions and teaching on the Gospel of Mark. And that's interesting. You would you didn't realize I'm sure at the time that you would go on to write a commentary on Mark one day.

No, I sure didn't. Never dreamed of it. Never, you know, at that point never even dreamed of becoming a biblical scholar. But I think the seed was planted then.

Sure. And um a little bit like what what you said, it was almost like I felt like I had such poor habits of scripture study.

Um, you you know how some people say they go into psychology to fix their own neurosis, right?

Um, I kind of went into Bible study to fix my own lack of discipline and um knowledge of the word of God.

Uhhuh. Okay.

Because I felt like I really needed it. But of course I fell in love with the word of God too. So um

Yeah, I gradually began to have this idea of going on to study to a terminal degree.

Yeah. Absolutely. So you know this is so fascinating and I'm so enjoying listening to you uh you know recount this um uh Mary because um you know you're swimming against the tide. You know, this is a a period in our country's history and in our church in the American church's history where lots of people are leaving the faith. Lot, you know, a massive exodus. I think of my friends from high school who um were still practicing in the '80s and then, you know, uh I don't know any of them actually that are still in the church. And so it's so sad because I I came uh I came into the church in 2001 and I excitedly tried to reach out to my high school friends that were oh wow Catholic and found that um none of Well, no, I take that back. There there was one one friend who remained staunch and and he's done well and actually sent some of his kids to Franciscan and I had the pleasure of teaching some children of one of my high school buddies but I think he's the only one that I that uh that remained in the church. So were you being affected by the cultural currents uh in in the church and in the world or you know or do you feel like the Holy Spirit had you in a kind of a bubble that was moving in the other direction?

Um, I was very much in a bubble moving in the other direction. Okay. First by being here in an environment of such deep and authentic faith, right? Um, second through father Francis Martin who didn't only remain you know absolutely devoted to the lord and the church in the midst of many crises crises in the biblical scholarship world as well as the ecclesial world. Um, but he also reflected philosophically on it and theologically wrote articles and I became very familiar with his work um pointing to the problems in biblical scholarship.

Sure. That were um undermining faith that were based on bad philosophy.

Sure. So that was a protection. But I'd say most of all being baptized in the Holy Spirit and experiencing the power of the Holy Spirit to make the word of God come alive, right? And then living that in a cultural environment of faith here. And then later I I lived in Mother of God community in Gaithersburg, Maryland.

Okay. Um, where Father Francis was one of our resident priests and members of the community. Um, that again was an environment of very rich faith, very intentional living of the Christian life.

Um, and you know, coming to recognize the underlying theological philosophical problems with some of the scholarship that was being done. All of that was uh protection for me, kind of um antidote to what was out there. And

And I saw that when I when I later went on for further studies in Rome, um some of my fellow students, not all of them, but some of them I think really struggled with their faith because what they were learning in their biblical scholarship seemed to be incompatible with faith, right? Seemed to throw doubt on on scripture itself, on its veracity, on its historicity.

But I I had had that protection before him. Yeah. That I was inoculated.

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm so thankful to God for that protection.

Thank God for Father Martin. Absolutely. And his ministry. Sounds like he had a very powerful impact on you and so many others. So many others.

Um, but let's go step by step here. So you you finished the um the MA in theology here and then you went to Catholic U was it?

Well, actually uh not quite then. I then after finishing here um taught high school in Massachusetts for a year.

Okay. I worked in New Hampshire for Sophia Institute Press.

Okay. For six months.

Okay. And I also had this um deep love for the country of Russia.

Okay. And I kind of had the idea of going to Russia as a missionary.

Okay. Um, and so my thought at the time was I will find a religious order that has a mission in Russia.

Sure. And join them.

Okay. And so as I was kind of discerning this while teaching high school in Massachusetts, working for Sophia, um I was speaking with Father Francis who was, you know, over the phone kind of helping me discern and at one point it looked like everything was falling into place for me to go get a degree in Rome, join a missionary order, go to Russia.

Okay. Um, but he really challenged me. He he said, "How deeply is the gospel rooted in your own heart and your own life? Are you ready to go preach the gospel in a very difficult place, in a difficult situation? Like how deeply conformed is your mind to the truth? In in what ways do you have an unrenewed mind?"

And I I I knew it was true. Not that I was worse off than other people, but we grow up in a deeply secularized culture, even if we're Catholic.

Yeah. And we absorb so much of the worldly philosophies of our culture that inhabit our minds and influence our thinking. And as much as we think we are fervent, devoted, um, committed Catholics, Christians, um, we actually have many corners of our mind that are not renewed, not transformed.

Yeah. Not converted.

Because if that were not the case, we would never be dominated by fear. We would not be dominated by anger in certain circumstances. We we would not feel like the sky is falling in certain circumstances. We would not, you know, fall into all the things we fall into because we have unrenewed minds.

Yeah.

So, he was really challenging me that way. And through a whole series of circumstances, I was led to um instead of going to study in Rome to go study at Catholic University and live in Mother of God community in Maryland.

Okay. And so I did go there. I did an MA in philosophy there. And um

And why did you choose philosophy?

In order to go the ecclesial route. Um, because to get an ecclesial degree in theology, you first need philosophy.

Oh, and you hadn't had enough philosophy.

I hadn't had enough. No, I hadn't had any.

Which is not enough.

Which is not enough.

None is not enough.

Right. Okay.

Yeah. So, you basically need two years of philosophy in order to pursue pursue a theological degree in the church.

Wow. So, I did that there. And

And was was that a just just as an aside was this uh you know, a lot of classical stuff like Plato Socrates or modern stuff or

Mostly classical. It was a very very good philosophy program at Catholic University.

It still is. A lot of Thomas Aquinas.

Okay. Um, a lot of the Greek.

Was mostly prescribed for you or electives or?

Probably about half and half.

Half and half. Okay. So you could tailor it a little bit but they made sure that you got a solid grounding.

Yeah. That's great. That's great.

Yeah. And I think that was that was also an inoculation that people who get uh a secular PhD, a regular PhD in biblical studies often don't have.

Do not have a philosophical. Yeah. They're some of them are not able to be metacritical because

Exactly.

They have they they can't intellectually kind of step out of the bubble of biblical studies and analyze it from the perspective of a different discipline for example.

Right. Analyze what's the philosophical grounding. What what what are the metaphysical truths that we are kind of unthinkingly assuming?

Yeah. What in the whole way that we make arguments and

Yeah.

Yeah. That that's fantastic. So that was another Wow. You can really see the hand of God in in the your intellectual

I would never have been smart enough to figure out a path like that.

Yeah. Yeah. So you got the philosophy under your belt and um and that was preparing because at it sounds like at this point you were thinking then you're going to go on and get an ecclesial degree.

Yes, I was I was thinking that and um my initial plan was to do that right after I finished the MA at Catholic U. But at that point I was being so blessed in Mother of God community, which as I said was um a group of people very intentionally living the Christian life.

Okay. Seeking to grow in holiness, seeking to, you know, dive deep into the new life in Christ. You know, what is it that God has given us in Christ that is revealed in the scriptures.

So, I was living in a household with other young women where every evening we would be like sitting around the living room studying scripture together, pouring over the scriptures. And we all had regular jobs and, you know, ordinary people.

Right? But there was such a um such a zeal and a hunger to know the Lord. And

Sure. What a unique circumstance.

Yes.

Yeah. Young women together looking to the scriptures for guidance for their lives. This is not something that many people

Exactly. Experienced. So,

Yep. And there were households of young men doing the same and married couples and I mean it's not that it was perfect. did have many many imperfections to say the least but nevertheless it was um really a tremendous grace of God to be in that kind of a culture of faith.

Uhhuh. So intellectually you're growing with um a very solid program in philosophy at Catholic U. And then in your personal life you're u you're growing with uh this uh uh community of very intentional discipleship and

And uh daily meditation on the word and and then where did that go from there?

Well, um, by the time I finished the degree at Catholic U, I realized I was being so fundamentally transformed at a deep level that I didn't want that to stop. I felt like it wasn't ready for it to stop. And so, um, I got a job. I got a job at a manufacturing company.

I, um, I actually told them I would only work half-time.

Okay. I spent every morning in prayer.

Wow. And again, looking back, I can see how foundational that was. I did that for a couple years.

Wow. Wow. I took the morning working half time and praying halftime.

Yeah. Wow. And that was enough to provide your needs, but it gave you that opportunity. My goodness.

Yep. Wow. So, so much time in prayer.

Yep. And in the crucible of that prayer, were things becoming clearer to you of like your personal calling and

Yes. I mean, it was mostly getting to know the Lord. It wasn't, you know, praying about my future, right?

Per se. Um, you know, a little bit of that, but mostly just reading scripture, getting to know the Lord, getting to know, you know, seeing seeing all the flaws in myself and allowing the Lord to change me little by little.

Um, ongoing obviously.

Sure. Yeah.

Um, and so then I I ended up teaching at the the community had a Catholic elementary school. I taught there half-time, fifth grade for a couple years.

Uhhuh. Wow. And then I ended up being a director of religious education at a parish.

Okay. Again, half-time for a couple years. I was both the director of religious ed and the youth minister.

Half-time today. That would happen in most. Yeah. Half

Time. These ministry positions that are half-time, you know, they they tend to expand though.

Uh, did Yeah. Did did you have to fight against that? I mean, I was I was in part-time ministry, which just became all-consuming. I don't know if

Maybe you were better able than?

No, I really did have to fight it. And I, you know, I just I guess I had this internal drive that I I I will not budge on my halftime. And at one point, the pastor of the parish came to me and said, "We really need you to be full-time."

And I said, "Okay, I think it's time to look for somebody else."

Okay. And by that time um the community was going through a lot of struggles and I I discerned that it was it was the right time to finally go on to finish my studies in scripture.

Sure. So I I went to Austria.

Okay. Where um Franciscan University had um just founded their campus abroad in Gaming Austria. And then uh on the same campus was the International Theological Institute.

Um, okay. Both of which my dad happened to help found.

Um, okay. So I was one of the first class at the international theological institute in Gaming and did my STL degree there.

Okay. Now there's several famous Healey's which is your father?

He's Nick Healey.

Okay. He actually hired Mike Healey.

Okay. Um, and it can seem like nepotism but it wasn't. They're not related at all.

For sure. But um but they're good friends and um

Yeah. Okay. So So you're so you went out and you're in Gaming and you're studying at the ITI and that that was also uh as I understand uh uh co-founded by uh Bishop Schonborn right at the time and um

Yep. So he was a very invested. Was was he already archbishop of?

No, he was an auxiliary bishop of Vienna at the time. Yes. We were very excited when he was named archbishop.

Yes, I'm sure.

Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. And so what was what was that environment like? And

That was an amazing environment. It's You've probably been there. It's a

I haven't.

Okay. Okay. Well, hopefully one day. It's a a beautiful restored Carthusian monastery.

Okay. Um, extremely important to the history of the Habsburg dynasty of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

Sure. Um, magnificently renovate uh renovated by an architect who also was pretty involved with the founding of the ITI, Walter Hildebrand.

Okay. Um, and so it had a kind of monastic feel to it.

Okay. And there were probably about a hundred Franciscan University American students there.

U, most of them filled with the Holy Spirit on fire for God, you know, full of zeal for their faith. And then um there was a third institution there, the language and catechetical institute um which my sister co-directed.

Okay. With Bobic who lives here now um and that was for students from Eastern Europe.

Okay. Where the iron curtain had just fallen the post-communist Eastern Europe to come and study theology and study English.

Nice. So they came these students who had lived under persecution.

Okay. For their whole lives basically.

Wow. Uh, the same campus with American FUS students, right?

And then a few graduate students like me at the ITI.

So it was these three things on one campus and it was um just a marvelous environment.

Powerful mix going on. So I'm sure there were some dramatic testimonies of faith from these.

Absolutely yes from the Eastern from the Americans as well. My good friend Patrick Rice had a big conversion at Gaming.

Okay. Wow. So, so again another uh very uh you know, kind of powerhouse of the Holy Spirit environment there and that was great for the gestation of of high aspirations and uh uh and zeal and so on. So

Boy, as we're talking, I'm thinking to whom much has been given.

Yes. Of much will be required.

Right. Yeah. You've gone from strength to strength.

Well, it doesn't look that way from my perspective.

Sure. Um, in these different places. Um, so that the so you got an STL there um at the ITI and was that a general theological STL or?

Okay. So very broadly prepared and that's fantastic actually because um, you know, I've witnessed u uh folks um and very good people um but nonetheless get into biblical studies and it's all Bible, you know, so it's like uh you know, a a BA you know, at a Bible college and then an MA in Israel you know, in Bible and then a PhD in in scripture and there's no patristics there's no moral theology. There's no systematics and so on, right? And then the person becomes a teacher and and they can do linguistics and they can do religious history.

Um, but it's kind of thin when when you get to like as if we're starting from square one as if there hasn't been 2,000 years of the church, saints and scholars and pastors meditating and living these this revelation for 2,000 years.

Yeah. Yeah. And my own formation is, you know, I I feel the the weakness of certain aspects of it. I had a good education uh on the other side of the state of Michigan as you're I'm sure you're familiar with in Grand Rapids at Calvin College and Seminary. And it was it was very good. I mean one of the I I think really looking back one of the best um uh evangelical Protestant seminaries in in the country in terms of its academic preparation and we had a decent exposure to church history and systematics. But then when having become a Bible scholar and now teaching, I feel, oh my goodness, I wish I had more time to go back and do more patristics and and uh, you know, appropriate the medieval doctors better because they find out that those guys are oftenimes more valuable than than the modern commentators when you're trying to deal with the the substance, you know, the spiritual substance of the scriptures. you know, I'm more interested in what Augustine thinks about this than, you know, what the latest German, you know, uh, researcher is is saying. But uh, not to derail this, but so you did a a broad STTL at the ITI. What a great preparation.

And then were you thinking specifically scripture at that point?

Definitely. Yeah. Even before I went to the ITI, I knew I wanted to study the Bible.

Okay. Yeah. So um after the ITI I went to Rome and studied at the Greg.

Okay. Gregorian University.

Sure. Why the Greg? What was involved in that decision?

It had the best reputation for scripture study and biblical theology.

Sure. Um, now of course there's the biblical but the biblical is right next door to the Greg. And so you can take courses at the biblical but the biblical is more technical.

Yeah. Um, you really do a deep dive into not only Hebrew and Greek but Coptic, Aramaic and other ancient languages and critic.

Yeah. Yeah. You learn more about textual criticism and all those things. And those are extremely important, but they're auxiliary, you know, to studying what is God revealing through his word. So, I was really happy to be able to do biblical theology at the Greg.

Okay. And with some excellent professors and then take course a few courses here and there from the biblicalum.

Okay. Fantastic. So um, you know, and now many um, you know, many people sadly um who go into scripture and and often do so out of uh, you know, zeal for their faith both evangelicals and Catholics and then they hit you know, maybe in their master's program for some, it's in their doctoral program, they they run into the headwinds of critical theory and either lose their faith altogether or seriously weakened uh in their faith and then kind of limp along for the rest of their career, you know, get out of grad school, kind of a damaged soul.

Yeah. And then end up teaching others.

That's so sad.

It is. It is very sad. But I'm sure you've seen it. I've seen it. This is a this is a known phenomena. That didn't happen to you. How why not?

Yeah. I I remember meeting two guys from the Far East who came to Yale to study scripture because they had so much zeal. I think they were both converts, had come to know the Lord, couldn't wait to learn his word so they could teach it. And by the time they were about to get their degree, they said, "We have no idea what we're going to do with this because we don't believe it anymore."

Yeah. What could be more tragic?

Yeah. So why that didn't happen to me, I mean, thankfully there was an environment of faith at the Greg. Um, like any institution of higher learning, it's a mixed bag. But there was there was genuine faith. That's great. But I think more more than that, the baptism in the Holy Spirit, the um, you know, years of intentionally seeking to live life in the spirit with another group of people and seeing the the fruitfulness of the word of God, how it's how it's alive, how it it has um revelatory power for discovering who God is, who we are, what life is about. You know, I couldn't deny that if I wanted to. I couldn't deny that. And so,

So your own experience of the power of scripture in your formation up to that time was so powerful that even when you're running into critical theories and JEDP and Q and you know, I'm sure you know folks that didn't believe there ever was a Moses and stuff like this and you're running into all of that and you're like, it's it's it's rolling off your back because you're like, I know that I exper have experienced God through the power of this of this word and and so you're able to deal with these um criticisms and and secular perspectives.

Yes. But I should say both because of that and because I had the critical tools and one thing I I didn't mention is that um besides the influence of father Francis Martin which was a huge influence on my life in 1988 I went to a lecture given by Cardinal Ratzinger in New York.

You were there. I was there.

You were there for the epic lecture. The epic Erasmus lecture.

The Erasmus lecture to talk about this. Yeah.

Yes. Um, my friend Alice von Hildebrand brought me um and I'm forever thankful to her. Um, you know, I was just a young person at the time and um, you know, just beginning to think about biblical studies. I think I had just gotten my degree here. Yeah, I just got my degree here. And um, and the cardinal was so eloquent and so persuasive and clear on the crisis in biblical interpretation.

Okay? And and you know, he was learned enough to know what he was talking about. He wasn't spouting off. you know, he he knew critical biblical scholarship very well and he pinpointed the problem with it. And ironically, the problem is it's not critical enough.

Right? It's not self-critical.

It isn't. It criticizes everything in the Bible.

Right? And basically, it raises doubts and questions about everything. Did Jesus really say that? Probably not. Did that really happen? Probably not. Did Moses really do this? Probably not. But it never turns its critical scalpel toward itself and says, "What are the presuppositions that we are simply assuming are true and founding all our work upon?"

And once you recognize those, you you realize um some of them are very flawed and very biased.

And as as Roger, what what are some what are some that immediately come to mind? You know, those these flawed or biased presuppositions?

The I'd say the main ones are that God is not an actor on the stage of history.

Okay?

God is behind the scenes. And so wherever scripture narrates something miraculous, something where God intervened, God spoke to somebody, God did something, God did a miracle, anything supernatural, obviously that's not what really happened. That's not what really happened. We have to find a human explanation, a purely worldly explanation.

Sure. So, you know, the the classic one is if it says that Jesus multiplied a few loaves and fish and fed 5,000 people with it, what it's really trying to say is that he inspired so much generosity in the crowd that everybody pulled the sandwich out of their pocket and shared with their neighbor and it was like a miracle, right? The best answer to that I heard is from a a a Palestinian tour guide in the Holy Land. She said, "That's so ridiculous. In our culture, that wouldn't be a miracle for everybody to share. That's just normal, right? That's just expected. It's a culture of hospitality. It's a culture of hospitality. That's what everybody would expect to do."

My guide was uh insulted by that because he's like, "What you're saying is that we in the near east are so stingy." Yeah. Exactly. that it it it took the God man to get us to to share our food. I mean, and there's many problems with folks in the in the near east, but lack of hospitality is not really an issue for them.

Absolutely. Absolutely. That's interesting. Yeah. So, that that underlying premise that um the dism is is is true that God is remote, uninvolved. The the universe is a closed system where God does not actually speak or act. the supernatural is um is not real, right? Um that has animated so much biblical scholarship over the last 100 to 200 years. And so many of the conclusions, you know, garbage in, garbage out, many of the conclusions if you start with that premise, right, your conclusion is going to be incorrect.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's it becomes question begging um or uh circular reasoning because you you what what you think you're proving is actually what you assumed all along. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So that was Wow. So that was an epic event. I mean that has gone down in in history.

Yes. That lecture has gone down in in history and been talked about and and just uh um just last week at our at our St. Paul Center uh Gayla um uh Bishop Baron and Dr. Scott Han were talking about the influence of that lecture and it's kind of reverberations >> down and by the time I became Catholic um that was already you know kind of an established you know turning point in >> uh you know Catholic intellectual life and people were looking looking at that in the rearview mirror and >> um things were were already developing but uh but you were there for the lecture that's amazing Mhm.

It's amazing. So, okay. But but now we're we're talking about you doing the doctorate. Now, what did you end up dissertating on and and why did you choose that topic? And >> um I dissertated on a passage in 1 Corinthians chapter 2. >> Okay. >> Verses 6-16. >> Um and I'm sure you know it by heart. >> No, I don't. >> Um but it part of it is the famous verse, what no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived. what God has prepared for those who love him, he has revealed to us through the spirit. >> Okay? >> And so it's e explaining why the things of God, who who he is, the whole plan of salvation, you know, Christ, the crucifixion of the Lord of glory are things that go way beyond the capacity of our human pin brains to understand. And we can't understand them without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit searches the depths of God because he is God. >> So he he knows the infinite depths of the fire of divine love that led God, the creator of the galaxies to send his beloved son, his eternally begotten son to become flesh, one of us, to give his life for us on the cross >> and to rise from the dead and pour out the Holy Spirit. only the Holy Spirit can give us understanding of that. So I wanted to expound on it because um so much of the scholarship I read on that passage was saying that Paul is just being rhetorical here. >> He generally means the opposite here of what he's saying. Um he's just picking up the Corinthians language and throwing it back at them ironically. He doesn't actually mean what he says. And >> yeah, and to me that that that made no sense. So I wanted to um give a more traditional interpretation of that passage. >> Yeah. So you're dealing with uh this view of of his letters that attribute certain sections. He's just kind of quoting >> material that was sent to him and then he give then he replies to that with his own view. But you're like no this is this is Paul the apostle teaching >> under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit about how the Holy Spirit >> Exactly. Exactly. And he's actually teaching about the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and only the Holy Spirit can enable us to communicate the things of God to interpret the things of God. >> And he talks about the spiritual person versus the unspiritual person. >> So, and he's talking to Christians >> and he's saying you guys were unspiritual because otherwise you wouldn't be fighting with each other so much and creating divisions in the church. >> And um so many of the commentators that >> kind of spirituality still around. >> Yeah. Isn't there Um, but so many of the biblical scholars commenting were saying, "No, he doesn't really mean that. It's not that there really are spiritual and unspiritual people." He would never say that. He would never create categories. >> But of course, he he is not. The point is not to say there's an elite. It's to say you're all called to be spiritfilled. You're all called to have your your minds filled with the Holy Spirit, to understand what God has given, and not to act according to the flesh. M this is great. Let me let me pause a minute to emphasize this. So what what you're saying is that what St. Paul is saying is uh you know this is not for an elite. There's not like a 1% of the church that's called to live some kind of rarified life in the Holy Spirit. >> Exactly. >> This is this is for the Hoy Poy. This is for the proletariat. This is for the bajgeoa. This is for everybody. Uh every person in the church is called to live this fullness of life. >> Absolutely. Um >> not a matter of intelligence, IQ, degrees. >> Uhhuh. >> Or anything like that. >> Yeah. So life, >> in fact, sometimes getting the degree can be a disadvantage. >> Right. Right. It can because we overthink it. And um and and also uh because knowledge puffs up. That's because the danger of pride. >> Yep. >> Um as as one grows in the intellect. Um, so wow. So, uh, this is so beautiful because in, you know, in a few minutes we're going to get into and I'm just like, yes, uh, you know, I was right to bring you on to talk about the role of the spirit because you've been working on this for so long, the the role of the spirit and interpretation, which is so important. Mhm. >> Um so you really in you know you did your dissertation on this um on this idea. >> Mhm. >> And uh Okay. So I mean can you give us uh I mean uh just in a nutshell where did you wind up you know concluding or saying about this passage in in your work on it? >> Um that that St. Paul is saying that the Holy Spirit alone can reveal to us the depths of God >> which is the heart of God like who he is in his inmost being >> which he revealed in Christ crucified. So you know the the crucifixion of the son of god >> is the high point of divine revelation right at at the very low point >> where the most unimaginably um glorious person >> uhhuh >> who has ever lived >> as a as a human >> right >> is humiliated tortured put to death. Mhm. >> It's right there. That is the It's the >> the greatest moment of revelation. >> Yeah. Yeah. It it's the the high point of God's self disclosure, >> right? >> Who he really is. >> Yeah. >> And yet um that would have no meaning to us. It it would mean nothing would do nothing for us if not for the Holy Spirit imparting to us what God gave. Mhm. >> The divine love that was poured out, >> right, >> for the forgiveness of sins, for for our divonization, for our our becoming God, >> uh, >> is applied to us, so to speak, by the Holy Spirit. >> He imparts to us the gifts of God. That's what Paul says there. >> So, the objective self-disclosure of God is present there in the passion of the Christ. But even to comp even for us to comprehend what's objectively there, what's revealed to us requires a further work of God. It requires this work in our hearts of the Holy Spirit to open us up to be able to see. And then there's the an experiential component like a personal knowledge or interpersonal knowledge. >> Um because it's not a merely intellectual >> self-disclosure. There has to be a kind of like an onlogical contact with with God. >> Yes. So it's not even a matter of just understanding of the heart or the mind but actually receiving the grace >> of that divine gift >> is only through the Holy Spirit. >> Otherwise he would be a mere memory >> right >> he would be you know the tragic death of our dearly departed founder of our religion >> um >> you know a heroic martyr's death because he stood for God and truth or something like that. But what what does what does that man's death 2,000 years ago have to do with me? >> Right? >> How does it have anything to do with my life now or my eternal destiny? >> It's because the Holy Spirit imparts to us, gives us what he poured out on the cross, which is himself. Yeah. Essentially, >> divine life. Divine life. >> Divine life. >> Beautiful. Wonderful. So, uh, what a great topic. Um, I did the Jubilee year first. >> That's a great one, too. It's not bad. Yeah. >> No, I love what you say about the Jubilee year. >> Yeah. As as it's uh as I've you know, I hopefully matured a little bit, I begun to realize um you know, depths to the Jubilee. Well, because uh you know um in in um Ezekiel sees the future temple uh in at the end of his book and you know Walter Zimmerly, the great Ezekiel commentator noted that there's all these multiples of 50 in the construction of the temple. >> Of course, St. John the Apostle applies Ezekiel's temple um uh meaning to the body of Christ, John 2:21, the temple of his body. And um so Jesus is our Jubilee temple. He is our Jubilee. And then and then the the Holy Spirit flowing from his side under forms of blood and water at the cross. John 19:34. That's the >> that's the river of Jubilee, you know. So it it ties from the temple. Yeah. The Holy Spirit all ties back together. >> But this is great. So you had a good experience at the Greg and uh that's great. And and in Rome and you picked up Italian, I'm sure. and and that's uh served you well and in >> Well, I'm my my Italian is pretty poor. I way out of practice now, but >> but um but you you got some contact in the in the holy city and uh would later serve on Vatican committees and so on and >> and uh all that. So, okay. So you complete the that was an STD ecclesial degree >> um >> broadly in systematics but with the concentration in biblical through the >> Greg >> and then where from there what what happened from there? >> Well I um o over a long period of time I was led to consecrate my life to the Lord. >> Okay. >> Um to be celibate lifelong celibate and I did that in March of 2000. So it was um just before I finished the doctorate. >> Okay. I was able to do that in the church of the holy separ in Jerusalem. >> Wow. >> At a mass in the chapel of the crucifixion. >> Wow. >> Which was an amazing grace. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> That's that's blowing me away. >> Wow. And uh >> you know is is there um uh there's a right for that uh in the church? >> Well, there is the order of consecrated virgins. Um I considered that but I I didn't feel led to do that because I was a member of mother of god community >> and there was a single for the lord sisterhood or consecrated sisterhood there. Um >> it it eventually broke up um before actually before I joined it but um >> I thought it would restart >> and at that point I thought I would stay with mother of god community. Sure. And you know the Lord eventually led me on a different path but >> um I wanted to I wanted to do that consecration in the community. It was Father Francis Martin was there. Father Mike Scan was there too because it was a gigantic pilgrimage from Franciscan University. Thousand people. >> Wow. So >> Oh my goodness. Are you serious? >> Yeah. Yeah. For the Jubilee. I think it was like record-breaking pilgrimage at least from here. And uh my family was able to come and friends and uh other people I knew. >> It's like 20 buses. >> It was 20 buses. >> My goodness, that's unimaginable. >> And you're all in the Church of the Holy Supplar. >> Well, just our bus. >> Oh, just your bus. >> Yeah. I think they had to have the buses in different places and so on. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> My goodness. What a beautiful grace. Wow. >> Yeah. So, that was such a blessing. That was in March of 2000. Then in June, I finished the doctorate and then I I came back to Mother of God community. >> Okay. >> And uh served in leadership there. >> You know, these Jubilee years are a big deal. >> They are. That was huge in your life. >> Yes. I know you've made that point. >> Yeah. I was I was so true. >> Uh while you were um consecrating yourself to the Lord and uh the Lord was doing a thing in my heart and um before that Jubilee year was ended. Wow. So many things were in motion >> at that point. And then you you then you you finished the doctorate >> and and came back and did you begin teaching right away or? >> No, I um I served in leadership in the community. It was really struggling at that point and we'd been through a very difficult time and so um I devoted myself mostly to that but I taught part-time at the Notre Dame Graduate School of Christendom College. >> Oh, okay. Sure. Tim Gray was a young teacher there at the time. >> We ran into Tim there. Yeah. >> Yeah. Before he was a known, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, our paths crossed a little bit there. Um, that was very part-time. And then I taught part-time at the Institute for Pastoral Theology, >> which was like a a roaming graduate program in theology that uh would spend a few years in different dascese >> and and people could um study on the weekends. >> Sure. So, uh, did that in, um, Ipsilante, Michigan. Okay. >> And in a Maria, Florida for a while. >> Okay. >> But that was just like one course a semester, something like that. >> Um, >> and then, um, in 2008, Father Francis Martin's position at Sacred Heart Seminary in Detroit came open. >> Okay. He was actually commuting from Maryland to Detroit at the time teaching scripture >> and he retired from that. So there was an opening there. Um my good friend Peter Williamson got that job and I got Peter's job. >> Okay. >> So I came to Sacred Heart. >> So a little musical positions. Yeah. Okay. And so that's so 2008 was your start teaching at Sacred Heart and you've been there ever since. >> Wow. Forming. >> Now tell us about your work at Sacred Heart. Um uh there do they is there still a lay program at St. Mart? There very much is. >> For most seminaries they they need that to stay afloat. Um >> Okay. Yeah. >> They have not just seminarians but lay students getting graduate degrees and >> Sure. And and your student mix is some of both. And uh >> I think probably roughly twothirds of our students are lay students or deacon candidates and then we also have some priests getting uh STL degrees. >> Okay. Okay. >> And then the rest are seminarians. >> Sure. Sure. And so you teach uh so about a third of your students are the seminarians? >> Um I teach mostly graduate courses. So it's more seminarians and then I teach in the STL program for priests. So I I probably have a higher percentage of priests and seminarians than Okay. some of the other faculty. >> Sure. And what kind of courses do you do you teach? >> Well, mostly Bible. Um and I love teaching both Old and New Testament. Um >> Okay. >> Uh we have a scripture Old Testament scholar who came on a few years ago. Andre VNOV was a wonderful wonderful >> Old Testament scholar. >> But it means I get to do less of the Old Testament than I did unfortunately. >> Oh. >> Um but I loved teaching on the Pentatuk. Yes. >> Uh loved doing prophets. Um enjoy teaching on Paul synoptic gospels and then also sometimes the undergrad intro to scripture >> and um a course called evangelization and spirituality. >> Okay. >> So those are my main courses. >> The main ones. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. You know, there's a it's a grace, I think, to be able to teach across the testaments uh broadly um for us as teachers um because you you see so many insights um when you're um teaching in different parts of the canon. >> Absolutely. >> I learned much more about the gospels when I taught Penetuk. >> Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I would >> I learned what's behind >> fully affirm that. Yeah. And um you know the um the my program at Notre Dame could be very specialized if one wanted to and then folks would leave and then sometimes just teach in a very narrow >> uh part of the cannon for the rest of their career by going to a research university where I just do prophets or I just do penetuk or something like that. And uh I guess you know, there's a place for that and there's a place for specialization but there's also a little bit of an impoverishment there. And I'm sure you have this experience too of um of going to academic conferences and you listen to someone who's only in one very narrow area >> and you think to yourself um boy that talk could have benefited from >> uh the person being more broadly exposed to what's going on in the rest of scripture. >> For sure. So um yeah um but uh but they don't have a specialization in generalization unfortunately or at least not yet but um but that's that's great. So you're teaching broadly uh in in the scriptures. Um wow. Uh so uh Dr. Healey a couple of things before we leave this um uh you know your your own personal journey. Um, uh, would you encourage young Catholics to go into Bible scholarship? >> What do you think? >> I don't know. >> Absolutely. Obviously, not everybody's called to that, but um, as Father Francis Martin used to say, >> if you've got a brain and you've got faith, >> you are a theologian. It's not a question of whether you're a theologian or not. It's only whether you're a good one or a bad one. >> Okay? So for people, young Catholics who have a capacity for academic work, >> who enjoy studying scripture, studying languages, and who have faith. >> Uhhuh. >> We need good biblical scholars. Mhm. >> We we need biblical scholars who are unabashed about their faith, >> who who are willing to fully integrate robust Catholic Christian faith into their scholarly work. >> And then what what institutions would you recommend that would foster That's a little bit of a delicate question. You don't want to know. That's a tough one. >> Um no institution is perfect. >> Uhhuh. Um, but some I'd say of the strongest ones these days would be Catholic University, a Maria University, um, Notre Dame. Uh, you can go to Rome, >> study at the Gregorian University, um, I'm probably missing a few. >> Missing a few, but those would be some >> some candidates. Okay. For for, uh, >> for doing further studies, doctoral work. Yeah. >> Yeah, definitely. Um, and uh, what is your favorite part of scripture >> to read, study, teach on? >> Well, I probably I I might have said Mark at one time. This is writing a commentary on it. >> Um, I have a special love for Luke Acts, especially Acts. >> Okay. >> Um, >> I love St. Paul as well. >> Yeah. The Holy Spirit is, you know, should be called the Acts of the Holy Spirit. >> Yes. Um, but I've thoroughly enjoyed going in depth in Genesis as I've been writing that commentary, too. >> Nice. >> Um, probably overall, like stepping back from all of it, I I I think I would I would say Luke Acts, probably my favorite. >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of wonderful material in there. I can definitely see what what the attraction would be. You know, it was interesting in in writing my my book on um Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls. I didn't anticipate this, but um I thought, well, you know, let me there's there's certain parts of the New Testament that are often said to, you know, be related to the scrolls and there's, you know, phrases in John and then the scrolls that are parallel and so on. >> I thought, you know, but I always conceived of Luke Acts as like the well Luke as the gentile gospel, you know, for educated Greco Roman >> uh citizens and so on. but discovered all these fascinating ties with the scrolls and it just changed my perception >> of what was going on with Luke Acts and think this is a much more Jewish gospel than I realized. >> Huh. >> So do you think he was a Jew? >> I do now. Yeah. I've come over to um >> uh to Father Pablo Gadenza's position. He thinks that Luke is the Lucius. That's that Paul Lucio in Acts 13. >> Yes. Yeah. that's what he thinks and I've I've come to favor that myself. But >> you know there's nothing dogmatic hanging on that. But um but yeah, what do you what do you think actually around that? >> I honestly don't know. I have a whole list of questions for when I get to heaven, God willing and can meet Luke and many other figures, right? >> Um yeah. So what's going on? Who are you? >> Right. Who are Yeah. Yeah. that we'll uh yeah there's going to be a lot of in interesting reveals big reveals when we get to heaven. Um let me think here um now subsequently in your career you've been invited to work on on Vatican committees um as well as for the USCCCB. Have you done work for them as well? >> Sure. So, what what has that been like? And I know I know you have to be discreet and >> there's there's all of that, but are there, you know, some some helpful things that you might be able to share uh for, you know, Catholic ley about, you know, what what's an what's what it's uh what the experience is like working for the bishops and working for the Vatican. >> Okay. Well, uh why don't I start with the bishops? Um, I think that was the the first kind of ecclesial >> commission I was appointed to is the um the board of editors that has been revi that did revise the New Testament for the New American Bible. >> Okay. You were on that. >> Yes. Which is about to come out um >> next year, God willing, and will be the New Testament that we hear in the lectionary. >> Okay. >> And >> is that what's the Catholic American Bible? >> Yes. They just announced the new name, the Catholic American Bible. >> CAB. Okay. >> The CAB. Okay. >> Yeah. And it's just >> because otherwise it' be too many news. The new revised, newly new new >> American Bible, >> right? The cab. Take a cab. >> Yeah. The cab >> to visit your good neighbor. >> Yeah. Up to now, it's been your neighbor, >> right? >> Um, yeah. I think that started back in 2014. And uh it was by far, you know, at least according to people who are familiar with these things, by far the most um hardworking, frequently meeting committee in the USCCCB. >> Okay. >> Many many hours of Zoom meetings online and inerson meetings as well where we literally went over every word, every line in the New Testament multiple times. >> Wow. And we tried to make the the translation of every individual word as consistent as possible. >> Um, you can't do 100% consistent because then words wouldn't fit in the context every time. But, um, we tried to make it as consistent as possible. We had lots of battles >> over the ways to translate various things. We wanted to make it absolutely faithful to the Greek and yet uh intelligible to the average reader knowing that not only Americans will be reading this Bible but people in Nigeria, Philippines, India, other places >> countries >> probably the biggest language group in the church right now, right? >> Yes, I think so. >> In English because you got to it's not just the US and Britain, but you got to think of Canada, India. >> Well, not that Canada and England and a few other going to use this. They're not all I'm talking broadly about English speaking Catholicism has become very big. >> Yep. >> Um because of you know the influence of the British Commonwealth all over the world and and so on. >> So you're thinking of all these things and the influence it's going to have. >> So I I like the way you enumerate what you you got the several goods that you're trying to accomplish in this translation and sometimes they can come into competition. You get the competing goods phenomena. >> But what are those what are those goals that you're aiming at? I think you were you're almost listing them off there. >> Yeah, we're aiming at fidelity to the Greek. Okay. >> So, if a particular Greek word like uh heros >> uh appears um throughout the New Testament as often as possible, we want to translate it with the same English word. >> Okay. >> Um the current NAB has temple area. >> Okay. >> And uh we went back and forth. Should it be called it should we call it the temple area or should we just say temple? And then there's another word, Naos, >> which um more the sanctuary. >> Yeah. >> And we eventually settled on just temple >> which I think is better even though most people don't realize that that's mostly outdoors. >> Um the part that has a roof over it was only a >> smalish part in the middle. >> Anyway, you know, things like that. We wanted to make make it consistent >> or say a very important word in the Gospel of John, the verb men to remain. to remain >> to abide. >> Yeah. Which what do you go with? >> To dwell. Um >> you guys decide on >> abide. >> Abide. Okay. >> Yeah. Which I think is is because there's more depth to that. It's there's a there's an indwelling. We're supposed to indwell the Lord in a >> abide is a little bit more uh personal than than remain can be a little bit sterile. Right. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Yeah. Nice. Nice. Okay. >> Yes. Um there were literally dozens and dozens of >> and John >> with what >> what did he do with Udios? Did he go with >> Oh, we had debates about that as well. And we actually had guidance on that I think from the USCCCB and even from a biblical commission document in the Vatican >> um back in the 90s >> um that they should be called Jews. >> Really? >> Yeah. Even though sometimes it means Judeans. >> Okay. >> Um >> really that was that was preferred. I would I would have thought that they would say don't do go that direction because of the danger of anti-semitism and not >> understand John can some people can interpret John as being anti-semitic which he isn't of course. Um >> but there are problems of consistency if you translate it Judeans and John but Jews in other texts. So >> right. Yeah. Okay. So, there's a lot of different um uh considerations to be brought to bear for how you do that if you're thinking of the New Testament as a whole. Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. >> And other things you you would never think of, but um ease of lurggical proclamation. >> Sure. >> I mean, for an ordinary audience that won't know um you know, academic terms or scholarly terms or words that are easily mispronounced. >> Sure. Um I remember one team member insisting we cannot use prostate yourself >> because it will be read that way. >> Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Okay. >> Um you know, we may have all been to a mass where somebody talked about >> prostrating >> rather than prostrating yourself. >> Exactly. >> Um >> so we avoid prostrate. Yeah. I think you know, we put fell face down or >> something like that. Even that could be misunderstood. There's certain biblical expressions that are >> Yeah. >> hard to render in English, >> right? Right. Wow. Well, God bless you guys. That that what a lot of work goes into that and what a what a challenge to try to render it. Were you also concerned with trying to keep to maintain some continuity where possible with the tradition of Bible translation in English? um you know going back to the King James and >> um no because the NAB the New American Bible you know that we were revising has been in like a different current uh Bible translation. It's not in the King James RSV Catholic RSV family. >> Um it's in a you know it began as an entirely new Catholic American translation and >> um our mandate was not to radically revise it. It was to update it, correct it, improve it where we could. I mean, it's a pretty significant revision still, >> but um >> yeah, >> we didn't change into a different family of translations. >> Still still in that. >> It is however closer to the RSV than it was before. >> Okay. >> Partly because um the current NAB uh you know, current soon to be former >> um tends to paraphrase sometimes. >> Okay. and tends to be very literal at other times. >> Okay. Yes. I've noticed this like an inconsistency in >> this inconsistency and uh very often when I'm reading it, I think that's a weird turn of phrase and I'm I'm more familiar with the RSV and think that gosh, why did they render it that way? And I look up the Greek and I realize, oh, it's actually more literal. >> Ah, >> so it is actually more literal than the RSV in many cases, but in other cases it paraphrases. So >> yeah, >> now it's more consistent and more literal kind of across the board. >> Okay. Okay. Wonderful. Well, thank you for your labor on that. That's a uh a lot of work and uh and you don't get much uh in the way of uh monetary or um uh academic uh remuneration for that. It doesn't look impressive. >> We did get an annual stipen, but didn't didn't add up to too much too much. Literally thousands of hours. >> Yeah. Of all the time that you put into that, right? So, it's it's really uh so it's it's just a a work of service for the church. So, thank you. >> You're welcome. >> For for all your work on that. That's u you know, stars in your crown, as we say. >> So, okay, Dr. Healey, maybe we'll transition to talking about the Holy Spirit and scripture. What a huge topic. And we could write an encyclopedia on that or you could um and so um you know let's start at at the beginning maybe. You know I have heard some Bible scholars claim that there isn't even a Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. I'm not sure exactly what they mean by that because the Ruach, >> you know, the Ruach Elohim is everywhere, but I I don't know. So, um, and I I haven't, you know, gotten into I didn't want to get into finding out what they were trying to claim there. >> Uh, I don't think that's accurate. >> But, um, >> you know, maybe we could start with uh uh a a a brief narrative of the spirit's work in salvation history as you see it. you know, there's a there, >> you know, >> but uh but you know, there there may be misconceptions out there that, you know, um well, Jesus brings the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit wasn't as active or something like that. But anyway, give give us your view of the narrative of the spirit in in scripture. >> Yes. Yeah. Who knows what somebody could mean by saying that, but um >> I mean, he's there from verse two of the Bible, right? >> Right. Um in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the deep. So right from the beginning, the spirit is active in creation along with the word of God. >> Sure. >> Like St. uh Erynaeus said, there are the the two hands by which God created the universe. >> And so there's this hint that it's the spirit of God that turned the chaos of the you know original um stuff >> right >> into cosmos into a a beautiful ordered world as God was speaking his word >> so right from the beginning the the spirit is essential in God God's whole work of creation >> sure >> and then um as you go on uh there's one interesting verse where in the story of Joseph Pharaoh says about Joseph who is a recently incarcerated Hebrew slave um you know who has been sold into slavery by his brothers >> and then thrown into falsely accused thrown into prison. >> He interprets Pharaoh's dreams. >> Yes. >> So he's a dream interpreter and he explains to Pharaoh how God has been revealing something to Pharaoh in a dream >> in order to save his people. And Pharaoh says, "Who can find such a man as this? In whom is the spirit of of God?" Right. >> So, um >> it's also tied to wisdom there. He has such wisdom because he's indwelt by the spirit and >> yes, >> it's beautiful wisdom is always you know connected with well I should say always but frequently connected with the gift of the spirit throughout >> right so he has a he has a supernatural understanding of the dream >> plus a gift of wisdom as to what to do about it >> how to store up food and get ready for the famine that's coming etc. So already in Genesis, you you see the activity of the spirit in bestowing wisdom, right? >> And um hidden revelation from God. >> And then in the book of Exodus, um as the Israelites have escaped Israel and they're journeying through the desert, God is present to them in the form of a pillar of cloud >> by day and by night. It appears as a pillar of fire >> and there's a mysterious quality to it because the pillar reveals God and yet it conceals God. >> Yeah. >> Because whenever the pillar of cloud descends upon the tabernacle which is the tent in the desert that house the ark of the covenant. >> Whenever the cloud came they knew God was there. They knew he was present. It was his holy presence. The shikina as the Jews later called it. Um, but when you saw the cloud, it's not that you saw God. >> So, it hides him as well. It reveals and it hides him. >> And so, in in Jewish tradition, the cloud is the Holy Spirit, a symbol of the spirit of God. So, God is accompanying his people in the desert, but not only accompanying them, he's leading them. >> Because when the cloud rises and moves, they know it's time to move. It's time to break camp and go. And when the cloud stops, it's time to stop and set up camp. >> How are they going to find their way to the the promised land that God has for them? The, you know, beautiful inheritance, the the abundant life that God has for them >> by following the presence of God in the cloud. >> How are we to find our way home to the kingdom, to the father, >> except by following the Holy Spirit? >> Holy Spirit. Yeah. And then it also Exodus describes how this spirit inspired the lurggical artisans >> who built the tabernacle >> ornamented it made it beautiful with gold and precious gems and the vestments of the priests and um all the accutraments they needed for worship. >> So the spirit prepares us for worship. You could say enables us to give God fitting worship. gives artistic gifts, gifts of of beauty, um you know, inspires artists, um you could say art of every kind, >> including drama, literature, um etc. And then um throughout the well actually be before even moving on there's a key passage in Numbers 11 the book of Numbers >> when Moses getting tired and fed up with the um complaining um grumpy groaning people of Israel who are always you know crying out >> like Catholics. >> Yes. Yes. And uh he says God, you know, I'm fed up. I don't want to do this anymore. God says just hang in there, Moses. I'm going to take some of the spirit that is on you and put it on 70 elders and they're going to share the burden of leadership with you. >> So he appoints 70 elders from the tribes of Israel. They go out to the tent and sure enough the spirit comes upon them and it says they prophesied but they did so no more. M >> so it seems like there was a something manifest something like prophetic behavior something very clear something supernatural happened but it was temporary >> but it was enough for the people to say whoa those those guys have what Moses has >> we better follow them we better obey them you know they they've got the juice >> sure >> but there were two guys who remained in the camp and they were on the list but they didn't go out to the tent with the others. And lo and behold, the spirit of God fell on them, too. And they prophesied. >> And somebody runs and tells Moses, "Hey, those two guys in the camp, Eldad and Mad, they're prophesying, too. Stop them." Or Joshua says, "Stop them." Moses says, "Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all God's people had would that the spirit of God were on all the people? Would that all the people would prophesy?" Mhm. >> In other words, why are you upset that two more >> got the spirit of God? The, you know, the the hope the the amazing dream would be that the every member of the people of God would get the spirit of God with the ability to prophesy, which means to to speak God's word under divine inspiration, >> to to speak the the word that comes from God with authority and power. Um, you know, you should be happy that two more guys got it. >> Sure. >> So then centuries later in the time of the prophets, the prophet Joel has this passage where he says, "In those days, says the Lord, I will pour out my spirit on all flesh >> and they will prophesy." >> In other words, what Moses wished for, >> God is now promising. >> Yeah. And then centuries after Joel, the day of Pentecost, >> the spirit falls on the early church on the 120 gathered in the upper room and Peter stands up and he gives his famous Pentecost speech and he says, "Look, this is what just happened. God has just fulfilled what what Joel said would happen and what Moses long for. >> The whole people of God has now gotten the spirit of God, which means the whole people of God are now prophets. prophetic empowered to understand and speak God's word. >> Yeah. You know, I I I love this. Um I've told my students at Franciscan, if if we are not baptiz if we are not partakers of Christ's office of prophet, then the scriptures have not been fulfilled. >> Good point. >> We we must be prophets otherwise it's a false religion. And um um but uh but also there's there's a beautiful line from the uh sermon on the mount well at the conclusion of the biatitudes you know rejoice when you are persecuted for so they treated the prophets who were before you >> and we usually just think well the prophets are before us and that's all that that means but no your prophets before you I never never thought of it that way. Yeah, I I think it's possible. >> That's how they treated the earlier prophets. So, don't be surprised if they're treating you that way. >> Because you're you stand in the in the chain of the prophets as it were. Um, you're a prophetic people. >> So, but not to interrupt you, but uh but 100%. Yeah. So we we share in that and I think you know this is um you know the the catechism 900 through 909 you know talks about us sharing in the three offices of Christ the kingship the priesthood the propheta but >> this is a really undeveloped area of Catholic spiritual theology >> and uh I know that you've done a lot in in in developing the the prophetic aspect I think the priestly aspect is also very much underdeveloped. Um, >> St. Joseia contributed to development of that and of course other saints as well. >> Um, but yeah, I mean I feel like um >> the the the richness of what we've been given uh through the gift of the Holy Spirit is so often just latent. You know, there's >> this richness of what we're supposed to be exercising. And I don't even uh uh feel like I'm living the fullness of it yet. I just feel like there's so much more. >> We're all living a sub Christian life. >> Yeah. >> Only the saints give us a glimpse of the full Christian life, >> what this really looks like. Yeah. >> Um but anyway, so so um so you gave us a a beautiful narrative and you got up to uh Peter um and the famous Pentecost sermon and the spirit being poured out. And then anything else you want to say? Uh >> well, of course, there are many foreshadowings of the spirit in the Old Testament. Um really everything that speaks of the spirit is is all in hint and and clue. There isn't a revelation of the personhood >> of the son and the spirit until the New Testament. But um in many passages in the prophets, God promises water will be poured out on thirsty ground. Uh, and in Ezekiel, I will sprinkle clean water on you and you will be cleansed of all your iniquities. >> Yes. >> And so, um, all of that water, you know, lifegiving, cleansing, thirst quenching, it all points to the Holy Spirit. >> Yeah. >> Um, but then you could say a whole other trajectory of foreshadowings of the spirit are fire. >> Fire. Yeah. It's kind of ironic. >> I know. It's ironic. They seem opposite. They they both can be lifegiving and um fatal. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> If misused, >> right? >> But if you think of um I love how in the ordination of the first priests of Israel in Leviticus, um they they go through the whole ordination process for Aaron and his sons and then they offer sacrifice on the altar, but they don't light the fire. >> They don't strike a match. They don't use a flint. >> Fire comes down from heaven. to consume the sacrifice >> because only fire from God, >> right, >> can make the sacrifice worthy to go back up to God in the form of smoke to make it an acceptable >> offering to him. >> Sure. So they took so seriously the fact that that fire came from God and therefore a solemn duty of the priest was to never let the fire go out >> right >> that same fire which was like a supernatural fire >> had to be kept burning in the tabernacle and that was a sacred duty of priests. >> So what does that have to do with us? >> We are the priests of the new covenant. Right. Right. >> We have to keep the fire burning. And what is the fire? the Holy

Spirit, right? And what does the fire do? It makes the sacrifice acceptable to God. It transforms, you know, the the animal that's literally being grilled on on the altar, which is like a grill, an outdoor grill. Um, transforms it into smoke, but that's only a symbol. In in the ultimate sacrifice, which is Christ on the cross, what was the fire that transformed his whole humanity and made it an a a an a a a sacrifice, an offering of infinite love, infinite trust and obedience to the father that could rise to him as the eternally efficacious all sufficient sacrifice, the holy spirit. And it says that basically in Hebrews, he offered himself through the eternal spirit. Through the eternal spirit. So it it's the Holy Spirit who transformed the humanity of the son of God to to make his sacrifice efficacious for us. So what transforms our lives to make our lives acceptable to God to to make our daily living, you know, our ordinary things are getting to the in the car and going to the store, you know, changing a diaper, writing a biblical commentary on a computer, you know, whatever it might be. What makes it acceptable to God in union with Christ? The Holy Spirit, that fire. Wow. So, we have to never let that fire go out. Yeah. It's a beautiful image of uh the the daily moment by moment role of the spirit in the Christian life. Continually transforming the ordinary matter of our life into a holy sacrifice. Yeah, that's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for that.

Um, so you've given us kind of an overview of of the spirit's work and, you know, from Genesis to Revelation the the Holy Spirit is at work and especially um in uh speaking through the prophets and that's the beginning of scripture uh because the words of the prophets get written down become um inscribed as it were and so the Holy Spirit is uh when We talk about the role of the Holy Spirit in interpretation. It's there from the very beginning because this it's the spirit that inspires.

Um, so many books, so much ink has been spilt on theories of inspiration, the doctrine of inspiration, the technicalities of inspiration. Mh. But what are some uh what are some fundamentals of the doctrine of inspiration uh of scripture by the spirit that you think are are most important for all Catholics basically to know?

Yeah. Well, the key church teaching on that of course was from Vatican Council 2, Dei Verbum. Okay. Which is a very short and easy to read document thankfully. And it's all about how God reveals himself to us. And he reveals himself both in deeds, all his mighty deeds of salvation history, and in words. The words explain the deeds and the the deeds manifest what's contained in the words, right? And it it speaks about how the scripture um transmits faithfully and without error those truths which God uh consigned to the scriptures for our salvation. And that everything asserted by the human authors is asserted by the Holy Spirit. Beautiful. So, yeah, such a such a beautiful clear statement. Yeah, they just nailed it there, I think. Yeah, they nailed it. So, scripture has this dual authorship. Sure. It is the word of God in human words. Mhm. And for other religions and and even for many Christian believers, what that means is the human authors are merely like dictaphones or scribes or um like their their brains don't really come into it. They're just a pen in in the hand of God. Um, and even some Catholic Yeah. auto even some Catholics have have thought that way. But the Catholic view is so much richer that they are fully authors who used their own language, cultural context, their own understanding, their own thought, their own imagery, their own imagination, um, their own um, you know, what they had gotten from eyewitness testimony, all of that. And yet the divine author, the Holy Spirit, used them to say exactly what he wanted said. No more, no less. Beautiful. So, um, God is able to do that without violating human freedom. Only God could do that, of course. So, they they're free as authors, um, using making full use of their own talents, right? Um, and certain weaknesses like, you know, as we talked about before, there's grammatical oddities, right? Yeah. in most books of the Bible, infelicities, you know, misspellings, you know, all those things, um, mixed metaphors, you know, you name it. But nevertheless, >> the Holy Spirit is is using those imperfect human instruments to say exactly what he wanted to say, what he wants. Yeah. So, John sounds like John. Paul sounds like Paul. We uh we can their their personal history and uh even their um personality and their uh talents and their gifts come across uh on the on the written page but nonetheless in such a way that what they consign to writing is what the Holy Spirit wanted and uh and that's beautiful. It's a a great you know kind of a Catholic both and thing. Exactly. It's a both end. Yeah. Where the the intention of the human author is not working against and and not overruled or violated by inspiration, but we could say even inspiration raises their level of freedom and and uh yeah, I think it's fair to say that. Yeah. And and there's been speculation among some scholars were they conscious of writing scripture like say Luke when he writes he starts his gospel with his infancy narrative, right? He's he's deliberately echoing the Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint, right? Yeah. Did Did he Did he ever think I am I am continuing sacred scripture, right? I don't know. It would be interesting to find out. Yeah, it's uh yeah, I kind of feel like he had a sense of that because of these uh dimensions of his writing that that you mentioned and and maybe John as well had a sense that yeah, I think this is, you know. So, um, yeah, that's that's beautiful.

Okay, so those are some important things to keep in mind when we talk about the the inspiration of scripture uh for us as Catholics. And uh so that's one dimension of the spirit's role actually inspiring the sacred word, inspiring the human authors to consign this to writing. And then of course the the spirit um superintended the process of editing and collecting uh all these different writings into one book into the book which is what Bible means. Um, so that was, you know, the the spirit working through the church. But now then there's the role of the spirit in the interpretation of what's been uh consigned to writing and Dei Verbum talks about this. I was very >> edified, you know, when I first read >> Dei Verbum uh as a graduate student um at the University of Notre Dame um not yet a Catholic but, you know, thinking I should really, you know, learn what the Catholic Church teaches on these things and so I >> picked up Dei Verbum but was was very pleased that um, you know, Dei Verbum makes clear that the interpretation of scripture is not merely an academic or an intellectual exercise. Yeah. That the grace of God is necessary and of course grace comes through the Holy Spirit. Um, so, you know, let's let's breach that topic. um, what is the role of the Holy Spirit in the now the interpretation of scripture which, you know, the spirit has already consigned to writing? I know that's very broad and it works on different levels, you know, this first, you know, the spirit works through the whole church to interpret and the spirit works through the magisterium and then the spirit's also working in our heart when you and I go to to read the page. So that's like a hopelessly broad question that I throw to you and you could start at any one of those dimensions that you want to, but let me toss it to you.

Well, um, I think a good analogy that I've heard used before is the the magisterium you could say is like the container that gives us very helpful limits within which okay to to drink the wine, okay, of divine revelation. Um, without the magisterium, you know, if it's an anything goes kind of thing, sure, the wine spills all over the floor. It does. But the point is not the wine. I mean, sorry, the point is not the cup. Yeah. The point is the wine that the cup contains. So, um, the magisterium gives us these parameters. No, it would be wrong to interpret that that way or that that way, but within the parameters, there's an infinite richness. Any given scripture passage, but especially the New Testament, has an inexhaustible depth. It's it's not like you you could just read what the catechism says about it or read what this church document says about it and you're done. Don't need to go back to the word. No, the the word is the primary source. Um, well, you say Jesus himself is the primary source, but scripture alone is authored by God. So it has a unique authority and it it remains primary in the communication of Christ's revelation to us. So everything else, every church document is just to help us read scripture essentially. That that's beautiful. And I I want to come back around to what you just said through a different avenue. But I have encountered folks who have even articulated the perspective or the attitude that oh well, we've got the writings of Aquinas and Aquinas basically nailed it for all time. So I've met those people too. Yeah. Right. Right. It's usually Aquinas. I mean, rarely somebody might fixate on another father or doctor like maybe Augustine or something like this, but it's often it's often the Thomas. I love I love my Thomistic brothers and sisters and and most of them are wise enough not to to adopt this view, but we've got Thomas, so why do we need the Bible? Okay. So, um, you know, if you had like a very zealous uh seminary in your class that kind of was in that mindset, you know, it's just like a big fan of of Thomas and so and Thomas distills scripture and everything and he works out all the systems. So now that he's done it all, why do I need to read Genesis? Why do I really need read need to read Tobit? I I can just meditate on on the Summa. I mean, okay. So phrase like that, you know, what would your response be?

First and foremost, the the first to pull out his hair on that would be Thomas himself. Sure. He would roll over in his grave. He would say, "What in the world? How could you misunderstand me so badly?" Yeah. Because Thomas him himself understood his whole theological work as commentary on scripture as a footnote to scripture as something that would help people enter more deeply into the biblical text. And he has a a very interesting statement. I think it might be in his commentary on one Timothy or two Timothy where he says, um, God works both immediately and immediately. He touches the mind immediately through scripture and immediately through every other writing, ah, including church documents and you could say the Summa, sure, writings of Thomas. They are all immediate in other words, they are God, you know, indirectly teaching us, informing us, but when we read scripture, God is touching the mind immediately, directly. It's it's his own word and therefore it has a unique depth, a unique authority, a a unique power. Um, coming back to that, that's something you've really emphasized the power of the word of God. Yes. Yeah. So this is, you know, we don't we don't have four readings from the Summa at Mass. We have four readings from scripture. More than that really, but, you know, when you throw in the psalm on a Sunday Mass and the um the first and the second in the gospel. Um, so yeah, so scripture is unique in that way and and we can't get away from it. Um, so it has and as as the word of God, it just has this unique role in the life of the church. And and getting back to that you were saying that the magisterium gives us the container for the wine. I love that image. Mhm. Uh, another uh image I want to throw in there is um uh they did this experiment a number of years ago uh where they um took down uh all the fencing around uh playgrounds at some elementary schools and then observed how the kids interacted. And what they found out was without the fence around the playground for these elementary school children, they would huddle towards the middle of the playground because they were >> nervous about where the boundaries were. Yeah. Um, but when they restored the the fence around the playground, then the kids would play all the way to the edge. Um, because they felt safe, like this whole area is safe. Uh, we can play anywhere in here. That is so cool. I actually did playground duty yesterday. Did you? And I saw that. I saw exactly that. There was, you know, a group of kids in this corner over here and another group right by the fence over here and another one's in the middle playing soccer. And >> that was amazing. Yeah, that's so true. Wow. And and to me, you know, my journey from being a Protestant to being a Catholic um, what I observed in Protestant in some some uh trajectories of of Protestant theology is a very diverse phenomena. But um, there's no fence, right? There's no fence, right? And so especially in the Calvinism group, there's no no fence. So there's a clustering towards the middle. It's like a fear of the polyvalence of scripture and and wow, we need to constrain the scripture and scripture can only say one thing. So we want to come up with a methodology such that every text will say just one thing because it says more than one thing. We need adjudication and we got no adjudication. We got no adjudicator, you know. So it's fascinating an exegesis of fear in a way and even even the way I was trained or formed in seminary, there was some of that um, it wasn't as bad as maybe in in previous generations, but there was some kind of like a hermeneutic of fear like we got to limit the word of God so and have of a method that keeps us, you know, because we're not sure, you know, we we could get out of bounds. But so the magisterium allows for more. It does richness. That's amazing. It does. And um, you know, Bonaventure will say in um, in his writings that there's an infinite number of meanings in scripture and there's all these layers and it it can be a little bit overwhelming to read Bonaventure on this. But I remember reading reading Bonaventure after having coming into the church thinking to myself um, my former colleagues would just be completely uh frightened by what Bonaventure is saying. But Bonaventure has that freedom because he knows that the church will keep us within bounds. Like if this gets out of control, you know, Holy Mother Church will step in and say, "No, no, you know, yes, stay inside the fence." You know, that's great. So there's actually ironically a greater freedom that the magisterium gives us within these bounds. We know we're safe within these bounds and we can explore within these bounds. And um, and we can even have fun as it were. It's the playground of the Lord. Yeah. And it is fun. St. Augustine talks about that when he was asking the question, you know, why are there so many puzzles in scripture, so many conundrums, things that are hard to figure out? And I forget exactly how he put it, but God wanted us to experience the enjoyment of having to solve the puzzle and having to try to figure it out. And it it is enjoyable. Yeah. I love it when students come to me and said, "I really enjoyed writing that research paper." Oh, sure. Yeah. They discovered a whole bunch of things themselves, you know, and um, yeah, and uh, and there's even a communal dimension. Many many of the best um insights that I've had on the interpretation of different passages have arisen in the classroom environment where uh, we'll be talking about, you know, a certain passage and a student will raise, what about this? What about that? Like, oh my gosh, yeah, I have that too. Yeah, I have I never think of that. I've taught on this for 20 years. I never thought of that. Right. And the spirit gave them um, you know, an insight there.

But just if we can come back for a moment to that that um we're talking about both the magisterium but also what's the role of the Holy Spirit right in interpreting. Exactly. And as you said Dei Verbum is very clear on that too. Scripture must be read and interpreted in light of the same spirit by whom it was written. M. And I think many people don't realize that not only did the Holy Spirit inspire Ezekiel and Paul and James and Luke and all the biblical authors, but he equally has to inspire the reader in order for us to understand what they wrote. Correct? So, it's not a one once and done way back in the past thousands of years ago. Biblical inspiration is now. It it's not only the scripture was God breathed as Paul says way back then. It breathes God now. In order for it to be a complete act of communication from God to us, the Holy Spirit has to be on both ends, so to speak, right? And otherwise, we will not understand it. We we may know everything about the grammar, the the philology, the text, you know, we may be able to do a complete analysis, the sociocultural context and yet not understand Yeah. what God is revealing. Yeah. And this is this is uh precisely uh contrary to how the scriptures are often taught in you know, the higher academy. Yeah. Um, you know, there is very much the attitude that well, if you know all of the ancient languages and you know all the religious history and you know these ancient cultures, then then you have done a complete exploration of of what the biblical text means. And the church says, "No, no, no. There's an ontological dimension here. There's uh the reality of God and God's self-disclosure." And like you said, I like I don't think I've ever heard that phrased exactly that way, but God needs to be at both ends, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There there's a a cool analogy that I read in um an evangelical philosopher, Kevin Vanhoozer. Sure. And he talks about a thin description versus a thick description. And you take the example of a wink. If somebody were to describe that as a rapid contraction of the eyelid, they would be saying something correct. They may even give more detail about what's happening on the muscular level or the neurological level um with with a wink. But if that's all they say, that's a thin description because they're not saying anything about the intention of the person who made that gesture. But on the other hand, what if you say um flirting or uh teasing, right? Or signaling uh an untruth or I mean, there's different ways that a wink it could mean different things, right? And different. But that's a thick description. Sure. Because it's actually describing what a person was communicating. Uh-huh. How many thin descriptions are there of God's word? Oh my gosh. That will tell us lots of things, detailed explanations that may be true as far as it goes. Resolution doesn't refer to thickness because you can give a thin description that's pages and pages long, reams, volumes long and of kind of still not getting at Yeah. of what is really going on, what's really being communicated. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's very important.

Okay. So, um, so the role of the Holy Spirit in interpretation. So that the spirit guides the church and especially through uh the magisterium to give us proper parameters for interpretation. But then how about um when when we as Catholics approach uh the scriptures um to encounter God. Okay. What is the role of the Holy Spirit there? Um, and um, you know, as as a foil for this um, I've witnessed this both in in evangelical Protestant circles as well as in some in Catholic circles. you know, there folks can can know that the spirit is important. So I knew I had some friends in my Protestant circles who just felt that they basically had personal infallibility. So if they prayed to the Holy Spirit before they read that the spirit would inerrantly give them the meaning of scripture. Y. And there's passages in John that, you know, the spirit will guide you into all truth. And they took that as a a a personal guarantee that they would always reach the truth uh provided that they were in the spirit, you know, and and and prayed. And sometimes I've seen that, you know, also in Catholic circles that, well, I prayed and God spoke to me. And sometimes you have some suspicions about that because you observe a pattern over time and you see, huh, this person always seems to get a word from God that confirms what their own interests or desires are. For sure. So, so um, you know, what is what is the role of the Holy Spirit beyond simply well praying for inspiration when I go to do my Lexio and so on. And also how do we guard against just um, you know, hearing the spirit say what we want it to say so to speak um, or, you know, a mental echo of our own desires. Yeah. When we we go to I've run into that quite a lot. Um, first of all, we shouldn't underestimate the power of prayer to the Holy Spirit. Okay. Anytime we open the word and we seek to read and understand a biblical passage, um, you know, if if I can't say a word to you without my breath, um, God doesn't say any word to us without his breath and so we we need the breath of his spirit so to pray to the Holy Spirit for understanding and um, invite him in into your life, welcome him into your life, which means um, you know, as um, I think Father Raniero Cantalamessa said, "Sometimes we pray, Come Holy Spirit, come Holy Ghost, and but in effect we're saying, and please sit in the back and behave yourself." So come, but not too close. Come and don't do anything. Um, but if we really mean it, we really want him to come, we're giving up control to the Holy Spirit. We're saying, "Holy Spirit, take over my mind." And that includes, "Show me my illusions. Show me my um puffed up ego. Show me my hidden fears. Um, show me the the things inside that I haven't wanted to deal with. Um, bring me to repentance. Bring me to the humility of needing others. So coming back to that question of how do you how do you prevent yourself or other people from attributing to the Holy Spirit what he had nothing to do with what's really your own ideas? I think in a way it begins with humility. You know, a healthy dose of realism saying not every thought that pops into my head even when I'm reading the Bible is from the Holy Spirit. Right? Very often it's just my human thought. And even when the Holy Spirit does speak to me or through me, it's mingled with my human thought. Sure. So in anything important um, any major decision, anything that would affect other people, I should get it confirmed by other wise people that I trust who know me, who know me well enough to tell me when they they think I'm off base, you know, you know, just basic human common sense that, you know, we're not all little oracles who are um, you know, going through life making every decision based on direct revelation from the Holy Spirit. So there's a communal you want to be in community. Yes. There's a communal dimension that is so crucial and um, practicing obedience to the Holy Spirit in small things. In small things like, you know, go do that chore that is usually what your family member has to do. You do it for them. Oh, I don't feel like it. I'm tired. Do it. Or go see that person over there. go offer to pray with that person. I don't feel like I'm not going to walk up to a stranger and ask if do it because it's only as we obey the Holy Spirit in so far as we can discern to the best of our ability that it's the Holy Spirit. Only that way do we begin to learn how to discern when it's his word versus our word. It only comes in in practice in in humble, faithful, ordinary daily obedience. Yeah. And the more we do that, the more we are welcoming the Holy Spirit into our life and beginning to live the normal Christian life, which is the supernatural Christian life, which is the spirit-led. All who are led by the spirit of God are sons and daughters of God. Right? So this this obedience to the holy inspirations that we receive uh from the spirit um develops within our personality um uh kind of a habit. Yep. Of um of docility. Yep. And uh and that can give us a a kind of a a discernment where when we follow as it were follow the shepherd's voice, we become more attuned to his voice. Yeah. And we recognize what brings peace and joy and the the presence of God into a situation and what brings agitation, right? Fear, um conflict, tension, whatever it might be. Uh-huh. Um, you know, those are some classic criteria of discernment. What comes from the Holy Spirit and what doesn't. Absolutely.

So, how does one balance uh you know, kind of the need for academic study of scripture and the the linguistic tools and the resources and um the secondary literature and stuff like that with um, you know, with the the direct communication of God's presence with the Holy Spirit. You know, it makes me think of Divino Afflante Spiritu um of Pius XII. He kind of uh engages this in that encyclical because there must have been, I don't know the historical circumstances, but from the encyclical I I can gather that there must have been some controversy in Italy or maybe in Europe more generally around the time of the composition of. I think there was an Italian author who was hyper-spiritualizing the Bible. Okay. So yeah. And it was partly responding to that. Okay. Yeah. So there there were those who are saying, hey, just, you know, the spirit will lead and we don't need academic work. And on the other hand, uh, there were kind of, you know, eggheads and some ivory towers that I know a theologian, so I am the master of the sacred text. And and so you have this kind of conflict between a spiritual reading and an academic reading. Mhm. But um, where is the balance in that?

Well, as you were saying earlier, there's the Catholic both and. Um, they're not in conflict with one another, at least in principle, right? They can be if your academic training is leading you away from faith in the word of God as as a revelation from God and faith in the Holy Spirit. But in principle, there's no conflict. So, whoever has the time and the thirst for it, I think, can do well by studying using making the best use of the resources that are there. And they're they're just so abundant now. Um, you know, on the very popular level to the the more academic level. So um, make the best use of them you can within your the circumstances of your state in life and your other personal circumstances, but without ever ceasing to rely radically on the Holy Spirit. It always needs to be biblical interpretation on the knees before it's biblical interpretation on the desk at the desk. Okay. Um, and I think Pope Benedict was such a model of that. He was clearly so prayerful and so faith-filled even though he was erudite in biblical scholarship and theology in general, and of course many of the saints are like that as well. So, like you said, we have to avoid getting puffed up by our knowledge, right? Um, you know, get smaller as as our knowledge grows. Um, you know, be be aware that knowledge has its pitfalls and besides some of the things that we think we've learned might not be true, right? Um, so we should get smaller in ourselves. Let me decrease. Let him increase. Yes. Get more childlike, get more reliant on the Holy Spirit, not less.

Okay. Now, for uh for lay Catholics, you know, not not every resource out there is healthy and life-giving. Um, so, you know, is there a rule of, you know, a rule of thumb or some rules of thumb to exercise discretion in kind of like what secondary resources one gets to assist in the interpretation of God's word?

That's a great question and I I don't have a ready answer for that. You you might I mean I I certainly can name publishers like um Ascension Press um the FORMED series um podcasts like Father Mike Schmitz's >> "The Bible in a Year" um that are proven as trustworthy and reliable done by people who are fervent believers, faithful to the church. Uh, you can say Bishop Barron's resources, Word on Fire Bible and things like that. Um, and so many other, you know, all the work of Jeff Cavens, um, the work of Scott Hahn. Yeah. Uh, so many life-giving biblical resources to choose from. Um, I don't know of any any given rule that would um, protect you from resources that are not so good. But, you know, if if they contradict the teaching of the church, that's a pretty good red flag, right? Yeah. Yeah. If they confirm you in a sinful pattern, right, that's a big red flag, right? Yeah. But that presumes that one has enough formation. That's the problem. Yeah. Yeah. But um, but yeah, you know, I Well, I think I think you kind of articulated there that, you know, the resources that encourage one's faith life, you know, that that's the the best sign right there is like this is leading me closer to the Lord. If I pick something up and it's creating all kinds of doubts and confusion. Yeah. That's good. And not helping not helping my spiritual life and not not assisting my prayer, it's like, hm, you know, something must be wrong. This is kind of like spiritually toxic. Yep. On the other hand, if it's causing my heart to burn within me. Yeah. And it's causing me to want to run to the adoration chapel or the confessional line, right? That's a pretty good sign. It's a pretty good sign that this is a healthy resource. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Yeah, that that is um that's really helpful.

Um, so I think we've we've touched on this uh as well, but um, and you've mentioned uh some ways, but um, let's return to this question. How can lay Catholics develop an ear for hearing the voice of the spirit? Um, and um, you know, I think you you you tossed out a couple of rules of thumb and some some principles of discernment there. Um, but are there are there any others that maybe we haven't touched on? If we think about this idea of I I want to um, you know, I'm a I'm a lay Catholic or even could be clergy too. you know, we have many clergy that watch this show, too, but any Catholic um that desires to get to know the word of God better. Obviously, there's all these great resources out there and we're living in a in a a good age in English-speaking Catholicism right now uh in terms of secondary resources to help us to get into into scripture. But I want to develop an an existential experiential familiarity with the spirit and learn to let the spirit guide me in the reading of scripture and especially for how the scripture should be applied in in my own life, how I should act on the word. I know, you know, the um, you know, every every Sunday, you know, I've spent a lot of work uh a lot of a lot of time commenting on the lectionary and on the readings uh for each Sunday and every single Sunday in the church's cycle is potentially life-transformative and these collections of readings that we have are so rich and and you'll get, you know, uh, the four readings when you include the psalm. And and I I look at them and I think to myself, "Oh my goodness, any one of these Sundays can and should just transform my life." Um, and it's almost too much because before you know it, we got another Sunday and another set of mind-blowing life-transformative. But I I'm I'm digressing here. But we want to desire, we I'm sorry, we want to develop, we want to cultivate a relationship with the Holy Spirit and increase our docility to hearing the spirit speak to us and helping us to um understand God's word and and apply it to my life. So, you've already touched on some uh some ways that we can do that. Is there anything else that you might like to add to that?

You know, developing that that docility to the spirit with respect to interpreting scripture. Yeah. I would say um, you know, I would invite people to ask this question. Do you have a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit? How real is he to you? Do you listen to him day by day? Do you experience him prompting you, leading you? um both short-term in daily moments and long-term in the course of your life because I think honestly for many many Catholics and other Christians the answer is no. I don't know what you're talking about. But again, that's not what the Lord has for us. It's not what Christ died and rose to give us. you know, a a church who don't even know who the Holy Spirit is, like the believers in Ephesus that Paul found in Acts 19. You know, we never even heard there is a Holy Spirit, who what's that? Um, so many Christians are living that way. And that is so much less than the inheritance the Lord has for us. So, if you find yourself in that situation and you're like, I don't really know what you're talking about, I would say find a group of people near you who are alive in the Holy Spirit. And keep looking until you find them. And if you have trouble finding a group near you, you can find them online. There there, you know, there's the charismatic renewal. Um, there are many parish ministries now who are very alive in the Holy Spirit like Divine Renovation or uh the ACTS retreat, Christ Renews His Parish, um others like that, Alpha program, charismatic renewal, Life in the Spirit Seminar, Encounter Ministries which is um training equipping and activating Catholics to demonstrate the love of God through the power of the Holy Spirit in their sphere of influence. So, I'd say find a group of people like that and hang out with them to catch what they have, but even receive prayer specifically for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit in your life, which is um, it's really a coming alive of the grace of particularly this the sacrament of confirmation. Okay. It's it's you know, those who've been confirmed have the objective, they they have the Holy Spirit. Mhm. But that doesn't mean they have what what the apostles got at Pentecost. Okay? What the 120 got at Pentecost. And that's what the catechism says confirmation is supposed to convey. That same gift of the Holy Spirit. And what happened when they got that gift of the Holy Spirit? They were intoxicated with the sober intoxication of the spirit. They overflowed with praise of God and amazement at what God had done in Christ. They couldn't keep him to themselves. They had to share him. They went out. They had to evangelize. They began to experience gifts of the spirit. So all that happened. If you haven't had that, you need to you need to have that. You're supposed to have that. You know, it's not for some people but not others. It's for everybody. So pursue it. Ask for it. Seek it. Beg, borrow, steal. do whatever you need to do to get that because that's the fullness of Christian life that Christ died and rose to give us. So, um, the the simplest way to get that is to, you know, find a group of people who you you see are living that. And of course, they won't be living it perfectly and they'll have all kinds of problems and flaws, but never mind. Just, you know, ask them to pray for you or, you know, go through the Life in the Spirit Seminar or the Alpha retreat or whatever it might be to get prayer to be filled with the Holy Spirit and have that grace that you received in confirmation come alive in you. The the subjective side. Sure. Yeah.

That that leads to a good question I want to toss to you which is you know what is the relationship between that um you know experience of the Holy Spirit and the sacraments you know baptism and confirmation and you've done a lot of writing on that. Yes. I think the most helpful way to look at it is uh to talk about the objective and then the subjective. Okay. Um, objectively, if you're baptized, you've received the Holy Spirit. Okay? And then in confirmation, you've received a fuller gift of the Holy Spirit. But subjectively, is that manifest in your life? Again, if you read what the catechism says are the effects of confirmation, you know, you you cry out with a filial affection, Abba, Father. You're more closely united with the church. You're equipped to become a witness of Christ in word and deed. you know, all these things, charismatic gifts, all of that stuff. Do you have that in your life? Yeah. So if not, you have the objective but not the subjective. There has to be a personal appropriation of what was given objectively in the sacrament. Sure. Um, because we're human beings. It's not meant, you know, the gift of the Holy Spirit is not meant to be a theological deduction. I was baptized and confirmed, so I must have the Holy Spirit. I Yeah. Therefore, I must. For the New Testament Christians, that would have been unthinkable. The Holy Getting the Holy Spirit is a fact of experience. Mhm. No, that doesn't mean it's necessarily an emotional experience. Many people make that mistake. Oh, you're talking about emotions. You're hyper emotional. It may or may not be emotional. For some people, it is. I mean, how could it not be? You know, God, the all holy who loves you infinitely coming into your life in a very manifest way. How could that not be? But sometimes it's not emotional. It wasn't emotional for me. Um, so it's something deeper than emotions. It's it's God making himself known, revealing himself, the love of the father, the lordship of Jesus, the power of the Holy Spirit in a way that is meant to turn your life upside down. Yeah. Transform you radically. Yeah. That's what God wants for us. And it looks very different for different people. It doesn't mean you need a certain style of worship, a certain style of, you know, praise or liturgy or anything else. It's much deeper than all of that. Yeah. It's like we've been given a a huge infusion into our bank accounts, you know. Yes. And we're not spending it. Yeah. But we haven't written a single check. No. Right. Unless you write a check, you know, you're not drawing on this. So, it's just sitting there. And so we have to learn to write checks on the bank account of the Holy Spirit or like put into use use this gift that's been given to us. Um, that's so that's so beautiful.

Um, now um uh what um what kind of patterns of you know how how how should scripture play a role in the life of the Holy Spirit-filled Catholic? Okay. How Mhm. How much are do do you have some practices that you would suggest? You know, uh should a certain amount of time be set aside each day to uh to read scripture, to meditate? Any like strategies of reading, so to speak? Um, yeah, great question. Getting down to brass tacks.

Well, I'd say absolutely prayer time should be non-negotiable for any Christian. Um, for most people, the best time is the morning. And so setting aside that time in accord with the circumstances of your life, you know, if you're a nursing mom or something, you know, be realistic. But I think for most people, you know, look at how much time do you spend on social media entertainment versus the word of God, probably could use some adjusting of those percentages. Um, so simply spending time in the presence of the beloved who loves you daily is transformative in itself. And then in terms of okay, how do you actually do it? Um, I think in different seasons of life it's good to try different things. Okay. Um, so for a season of life maybe reading the Magnificat, a companion to the daily readings or The Word Among Us or another um good companion to the daily readings for Mass um, which usually has a little meditation, saint of the day, etc. Um, some psalms and prayers. That's one way to do it. But maybe at another season you um, you feel drawn to a particular book of the Bible. Okay. And there's something about going into greater depth and seeing a book of the Bible as a whole, right, that is very significant as opposed to just reading excerpts because the Mass readings are just excerpts, right? you know, as as I'm sure you know, um, because you know the website of Father Felix used um, the Bible is uh only 28% of the Bible appears in the lectionary entire lectionary Sunday and daily, right? So that means 72% is doesn't show up. Doesn't show up at Mass at all. So um, so we don't want to just read excerpts. So you could decide I really love Paul's letter to the Ephesians. I'm going to live in Ephesians for a few months as long as the Lord leads me. You know, read it slowly. Um, get a good commentary. Read along with the commentary. Get a sense of the whole letter. What's what's the main theme of the whole letter? Um, you know, what are the passages that really stand out to you? And then as you're reading, you kind of pause. Don't say, "Well, I have to get through this chapter." But if if something is kind of being highlighted to you, you say that, "Wow, that's interesting. What what could that mean?" Stop there and talk to the Lord. Lord, what does that mean, Lord? Um, you know, see if there's a footnote. Look up the footnote, the cross-reference, and um, just wrestle with it, right? You know, this is an active reading of scripture. Yeah. Yeah. Just chew on it, right? Let it let it sink into your being and and then just spend time in the presence of the Lord just just allowing his word to have its effect on you. Lead us into prayer. And uh, yeah, so this is so we're not just reading to get through a passage. We're um, we're kind of actively reading and and uh, asking ourselves, am I understanding this? Yeah. Am I getting am I getting what's what's here? Um, and and if I'm not, you know, kind of uh wrestling with God and and and uh and asking us to give it to give that enlightenment. Yeah. It's often the passages that um, that bother you um, where the Lord really has something important that he wants to say to you, right? And you come back to it and come back, it doesn't make sense. I don't get it. I don't get it. Right? And

Then eventually the light goes on, and you realize the Lord wanted to show you something really significant through that passage.

Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. Okay. Thank you for that. How about, um, how about the role of the Blessed Mother in in scripture? You know, is that a triad? The Blessed Mother, the Spirit in scripture, in a sense.

Um, you know, so many paintings of our Lady have her reading a book to the Child Jesus. I I love that motif in, um, paintings of our Lady. And of course, it it likely has a basis in real history. You know, who would have taught the infant Jesus, the God-man, to read the word of God? Likely she did. She she herself knew the scriptures, lived the scriptures, and was radically open to the Holy Spirit. And of course, it was at the Annunciation that the Holy Spirit came upon her. The power of the Most High overshadowed her.

So, um, she herself is the model for what it means to fully receive the Holy Spirit. And as St. Augustine said, she she took the word into her mind before she took the word into her body. She conceived the word of God spiritually. And so, um, she teaches us how to be a a fruitful disciple, too, in a sense that the, um, in a in a sense, you could say that the Incarnation is repeated in us, that the Holy Spirit makes Christ present in us through His word. Not in the literal sense in the flesh that occurred with her, but nevertheless, our lives are an extension of the Incarnation. Christ is present anew in each one of His disciples through the Holy Spirit.

So, so Mary is the icon of the Church.

Love that. Yeah. And the way Luke, um, narrates the Annunciation is clearly meant to be a preview of Pentecost. So what happens in her when the Holy Spirit overshadows her and she becomes pregnant with the Word so that she can give birth to Him in the world is what will happen to the Church at Pentecost. The Holy Spirit comes upon them so that Christ is in them in a new way, so they can give birth to Him in the world through their evangelization.

Yes. And and she has effects just like they will have immediately. She has to go share the good news with Elizabeth, right? It's exactly what happens to the Christians at Pentecost. She, um, overflows with praise of God in her Magnificat. That's what happens to the Christians at Pentecost. She prophesies. Yes. There's even a healing in the orbit of the whole story. Elizabeth is healed of infertility, right? Um, and Zechariah is healed of his deaf-dumbness, right? So, it's all a preview of what's going to happen to the whole Church at Pentecost.

Wow. Wow. That's so. She helps us open ourselves to the Holy Spirit.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and in her Magnificat and its relationship to older scriptures and to Hannah's prayer and so on, we see that she herself has meditated on the word of God, and it's coming, it's bubbling naturally up, mixed with the inspirations that she's receiving from the Holy Spirit herself. Um, what a beautiful example, uh, for us of, uh, the the Spirit-infused meditation on the word of God.

Yeah. As a model. Mhm.

Well, we're we're coming to the end of our time, and uh, I I did not leave enough time, or as much time as I would have liked to, uh, talk about your books and, uh, to promote some of them, but, uh, could you share with us, um, commentaries? Um, it's on Mark and, uh, Hebrews.

Hebrews and now Genesis.

Genesis, correct?

Yeah.

Okay. So Genesis is coming out soon.

Yep. So if if folks want to get into the scriptures, you yourself are a guide, uh, and have, uh, written books that will take folks by the hand through Mark and Hebrews and, uh, and Genesis.

And the whole series, um, we designed to do just that. Catholic Commentary on Sacred Scripture, uh, of which you're the general editor, uh, along with Peter Williamson and Mark Giesecke.

Okay.

We are the three general editors of the Old Testament. Now, the New Testament is done. So we're working on the Old, and it's to enable ordinary Catholics and preachers and teachers of the word, priests, catechists, seminarians to, um, understand scripture as the original authors intended it and the original audience would have heard it, but more importantly, to understand what God is speaking through His word today.

Yes.

And how the Church has understood it. So it's biblical commentary in faith.

Correct.

And, um, as we can live it today.

Yeah. So, it's a Catholic Commentary on Sacred Scripture series from Baker Book House in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Grand Rapids. Familiar with. Was originally a Dutch Calvinist, uh, publisher, but now they've branched off. They're doing Catholic stuff.

Yes, they're doing lots of good Catholic stuff. I have a book with on the Bible and marriage, actually, that came out. And so I thought it was just so ironic that, uh, Dutch Calvinism now, right? But anyway, um, and and talk to us about some of your other books. You have a book on healing, and, uh, can you say some stuff about that?

Yes. Well, that was an amazing, um, new adventure with the Lord in my life that came about, uh, starting around 2013, 2014, when the Lord very clearly led me to study healing as a focused topic of research. And not only to study, uh, what people were writing about it, including the Church and the saints and the Fathers and scripture itself, but to actually study what God was doing in terms of miraculous healing. And it led me, um, to go on a mission trip to Brazil with Randy Clark, who's a wonderful Protestant healing evangelist. And, um, his ministry called Global Awakening. It changed my life. I saw so many amazing healings, transformations, conversions, people launched into mission, um, just supernatural power on a scale I had not seen before. And from that time, the Lord made it clear. He wanted me not just to talk about it, but to do it.

Okay?

And that was the scariest thing ever. And meaning to pray for healing in public, in very specific ways for specific conditions, which I never would have dreamed of doing before.

Sure.

But God is so faithful, and it's just been amazing what I have seen the Lord do since then. And, uh, since then, I've become involved in Encounter Ministries, which, as I said, um, teaches, equips, and activates Catholics in in using those gifts of the Spirit for the sake of demonstrating the love of God among those who don't know Him, especially, um, you know, not for our own sake, and, and certainly, you know, not for the sake of of doing spectacles and things. No, for the sake of making Christ known. And now, what I'm seeing again and again is when ordinary people are are taught so that their level of faith is raised, and they are equipped, and they're sent out in the power of the Holy Spirit with, uh, you know, some good basic foundations, they see miracles. I mean, it's not just here and there occasionally, it's like frequently.

Wow.

Astounding miracles are occurring. It's really, it's a return to the early centuries of the Church, and the the supernatural power that was so evident back then is being evident once more today.

Wow.

And I think the Lord is doing it because of the, um, drastic needs of this generation. The brokenness, right, of a culture that has rejected God, right? Um, the Lord is just opening the heavens above us.

Yeah. That's beautiful. Amazing.

It's so exciting.

Makes me want to run right out and and grab your book and get into.

I'll give you a free copy.

Well, thank you. I appreciate. Um, that's fantastic. Uh, so, and and what is the title of your book on healing? And, um,

Healing. Just by Healing. Healing by Healing.

Easy to remember. If you look up Healing by Healing, you'll find it.

Yeah.

And and then I co-authored a book with Randy Clark, The Spiritual Gifts Handbook, which is more broadly about the other charismatic gifts of the Spirit, including prophecy, discernment of spirits, tongues, words of knowledge, etc.

Uhhuh.

Um, which I again believe are meant to be ordinary in the life of the Church. Um, can they be be misused? Absolutely.

Yeah.

And create problems. Absolutely. But does that mean we should avoid them? No way. Neither scripture nor tradition says that at all. Um, you know, we're not to cut off part of our inheritance from the Lord because we have problems in the way we use it. I mean, that's true with everything, right? Everything that we have, sacraments can be misused. Everything can be misused.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I've seen so so many Catholics come alive when they learn to operate in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Uhhuh.

And to use these gifts which are given generously by the Spirit to the Church. Um, and not just to the clergy. The clergy to equip and to guide, but the laity. You know, in Ephesians 4, the the work of ministry is really done by the laity.

That's right. That's right.

It's the building up of the Church. Yeah. That's remarkable.

And, uh, I I didn't realize that this had actually been one of the first things that you worked on in your career, but the Theology of the Body. You have a book on Men and Women Are from Eden, which I, uh, I think that was a counterpoint to Men Are from Mars and Women Are Venus or something like that from some popular author. But, um, talk to us a little bit about that, and and you spent, I think, a decade doing a lot of, uh.

Yes, that was the first book I published back in 2005, and, um, Father Francis Martin contributed a lot to it, as did John Gowski. I kind of organized a series on the Theology of the Body at our prayer meetings, the early 2000s, when nobody knew what Theology of the Body was.

Okay.

Um, Christopher West was part of that community way back then. Um, and I saw how people ate it up and how people said, "Gosh, I I wish you I've been married for 60 years. I wish I had learned this before I got married." Or young couples dating. This is amazing. People discerning consecrated life and priesthood. This is amazing.

Um, so I believe, along with Christopher West and many others, it needed to get out there and popularized. And, you know, the material of Pope John Paul II himself is a bit thick, and it is a bit hard to digest. So I made a very, very digestible, short presentation version, and it's still selling now.

In fact, they just showed me. I was just in Belgium. They showed me a Flemish or a Dutch translation of it that was just published.

Oh, fantastic. The Dutch definitely need to, uh, to, uh, get the get the message on that. I will attest. Um, so that's fantastic. And, yeah, you know, I just checked online before our getting together, and apparently it's a big reprint as of two years ago of, um, of your, your, uh, work on that. And so that's another resource that I would want to encourage our viewers to go out. So your works on healing, on the Theology of the Body, biblical commentaries, um, these are fantastic resources. So, we got to, uh, wrap it up, I think. But, uh, this has been a wonderful experience, and I just want to thank you so much, uh, Dr. Healey, for making the time to, uh, to come down and spend some time with us.

Oh, you're so welcome. It's always a joy to be with you.

Excellent.

We resonate in so many ways. Um.

Yeah, indeed. Yeah, this has been great.

We love the same Lord.

Yeah, we do. In fact, why don't we turn to Him now in prayer? In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Amen. Heavenly Father, we just thank You for the time that we've had together to, uh, converse about, uh, the Word and about Your Spirit, which You've given out to us so generously through the sacraments and in other ways as well. Uh, Lord, uh, take this, uh, conversation that we've shared and, uh, use it, Lord, uh, to touch many hearts and to bring Your people closer to Yourself. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.

Amen. Holy Spirit. Thanks once.

Amen. Thank you, John. Good.