Transcription
[Music] What's up everybody? Welcome to another episode of Outside the Box. And as you can see, we have a repeat guest, Jamie Winchip. Um, who, in our first conversation, we went over all things around fear, how everything kind of comes back to that. And, uh, he's one of those guys that we had to have back on because there was just so many different things we could go down on that would be really helpful and valuable to you guys listening here, including myself, because I've, I've rewatched that video, uh, a couple different times, and I, I seem to get something different every single time I watch it. Um, Jamie, how you doing?
I'm doing great. It's really, it's fascinating. So if I could do a plug for you, actually, I just thought of that. Is I was, I was a guy called me yesterday who's, uh, big investment banker, and he decided to shift out of what he's doing into a new industry. Took a lot of courage because he's been in a long time. And he said the motivator was the, the podcast that we did together. Yeah. So cool. Yeah. He just told me that yesterday. He's a guy in Montana. So that is so cool. That's so cool. Well, congrats, uh, to, to the listener there for going towards a, a passion. And, uh, man, I'm, I'm, thank you for saying that. That's awesome.
Um, and, you know, speaking of things like that, I, I wanted to touch on identity a little bit. We, we touched on fear and identity. Um, can you walk us through again, kind of how we start, go about that journey of finding our true identity?
Right. So, um, so briefly, so identity, identity, the definition of identity is, identity is received in community from an external source. Like, that's critical. Um, and because you want to make a distinction between, uh, true identity or true self versus radical individualism. Radical individualism is sort of a counterfeit to identity. Radical individualism is just, I'm going to come up within myself with an identity, and that identity will be very isolated and individual, and it's very subjective. So there's no affirmation to it. It's just my own, and it produces almost immediate conflict.
But when, but when you say that, 'cause I, I can kind of connect with that in the sense of like, you're taking ownership of it. You're taking ownership of who I am versus, you know, I think could be equally as negative, you know, if you go by what your parents told you you were, exactly. Or, you know, uh, your friends growing up, you know, or the place you were born, right? Um, so how do you, how, so it seems there's two ends of the extreme, man.
Yeah, that's right. So as, as a child is developing, a child doesn't have any kind of internal dialogue, internal voice. It's learning that voice. The child is learning the voice from what the voices it hears around it. And as you're saying, those voices can be positive or negative, right? That's true. Regardless, the child is still going to gain a view of him or herself from external observation and comment. So people saying, yeah, you're an amazing this, or you're not very good at this. And they have the option to accept or reject those, those influences. But most kids don't know. They don't have a filter for it, right? They just receive it. So the maturation process is, is where truth-telling is so important. Is to be able to tell the truth. And when we're working with younger kids, our question to them is, what are, what are things you believe about yourself that hurt you? Yep. Right? And then, and then, and then we'll go through those, and where did you learn them? For them to understand that they learned those things about, about themselves.
Okay. I just did it in a university group yesterday, in a, at a college, in a college class. And, um, talking about how many of you believe that in the system that you find yourselves, that you're actually not enough? And all of them, every student in the room agreed that they had some view of themselves as being not enough. My question was, who told you that you're not enough? Because you didn't think of that on your own. You had to learn that. So, and it's not true. They are enough. So identity, whether we like it or not, true identity is received externally. It's why every culture in the history of humanity, until really, um, the industrial revolution, had naming ceremonies that were very clear and distinct for their young people. And even today, Israel is the only one that the Jewish people are still the only ones that really do it with Bar Mitzvah. It's a 14-year-old or a 13-year-old, man and woman, receiving their identity from the community. The community affirming the identity and walking them into it. So that the idea of their identity is their identity is part of a community. It's a gift back to the community, which validates who they are, um, in such a way. It's, it's, there's an accountability. Like, you are this, you are distinct from everyone else in this community, individual. You're an individual, but you're part of the community. Radical individualism produces separation, fragmentation, and isolation.
So, I mean, I've always kind of thought that self-expression was a good thing, too. You know, I always, I always connected with, uh, I had, uh, I got my ears pierced when I was 16, right? And and that was, I think, my way of like, standing out or doing something, uh, that might have be, might be against the grain, because I kind of wanted to be against the grain, but also didn't want to be way against the grain, right? So what do you think about that?
So I think those are, those are attempts, okay? To just, to, yeah, to say, I'm an individual. Yes. Yes. That's what it is. That's what it is. And so that's okay. I mean, that's, we, we are unique individuals. That's, that's who we really are. The, the issue is, how does, and I think this is where we're really seeing this in our culture, how does my identity, how is my identity a gift to the world? I'm distinct, I'm unique, but that mean, that's like saying, uh, when we're talking about the human body, there's a hand and a foot, and they're each distinct. But on their own, a hand laying on a table is not a lot of value. It's distinct, it's individual, but put it with the body, put it with an arm, put it with a leg, where it's not in competition, but it's actually moving with the community. And you have, you have a community, you have a society, you have a family. And I, I, that's a theme in our conversations is always about togetherness, right? And I think that's really something we've gotten away from because there's so much division in our society today, you know, in particular. And I'm sure always, I'm sure there's always been divisive things, but it seems like, you know, you're coming at this with the truth that, uh, we are together. We're in this together. Exactly. And we need to, we need to, um, put our dent on the universe with a togetherness mindset.
100%. As with a community, right? Because humans are relational beings. Yes. Yes. And identity moves us towards deeper, joyful relationship with others. Whereas radical individualism isolates and separates.
It's so, it's just so interesting because, you know, I'm seeing so much myself in my attempts to, to, um, be successful, in to, um, you know, I think all everyone wants to make something of themselves. They want, they want to do good things, um, and and kind of be who they're supposed to be, right? Um, but when I think about what you're just saying, all those attempts I made were clearly out of a scarcity mindset. That's right. And out of a mindset of, I'm, I'm in it on my own, right? And I think that's actually worked against me. Yes. Yeah.
I think no matter where we've worked in the world, and we've worked all over the place, lived in all different countries, um, if, if every group of humans, because they grew up in this culture or this country, are distinct from everyone else, they're a distinct form of humanity, because they're this religion or this ethnicity, then we're in big trouble. But if there's a commonality, because all humans are the same, yeah, then, then we have a lot of hope of overcoming division and war and all of these things, because we realize that each of us really can't function in joy in isolation.
So, so joy is togetherness. It's community, right? And, uh, and a lot of our fears probably stem out of isolation. That's right. Which, you know, it seems like, at least in my own life, uh, we kind of, uh, self-inflict that isolation. Like we, that's right, on purpose, in a way, in order to, you know, I think my ambition was good. You know, I was trying to, you know, be, we talked a little bit about self-mastery before we started recording. I was trying to be my best, right? But I think I left out the togetherness part.
Yes. That's, that's the way to say it right there. I, I, I want to be my best self for who? If it's for me, yeah, then, then it turns inward. It, it isolates, it separates, it it steals joy. But I want to be my best self for the other, for others. I mean, there's just joy built into that. And how often do we see that in our culture? Rarely. Rarely. Yeah. And we can tell by the effects of it, just the division we see and the fragmentation in thinking and in, we can't even really have civil conversations about anything because it's all so self-protective and self-promotional.
So, if, you know, I'm trying to find my, my true identity and the source of joy in that, right? Um, clearly that's not going to be getting earrings or, you know, and there's nothing, I, I had two of them. Nothing wrong. No, it's fine. It's expression. Sure. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as, and I think, you know, my mom did a good job of making sure that that in particular wasn't my identity. But I can see in myself how that was my attempt at standing out, right? Because I do think we all have this desire to be seen, right? Yes. You know, so how, seen as different, you know, in a good way. You know, different, you know, from within a family. So, right? You know, you mentioned the, the Jewish culture with the Bar Mitzvah, which I would love to go to one. I've never been to one, and they seem like a blast. What do you think about, okay, they're affirming an identity on somebody. Yes. What if that identity is wrong?
Yeah, that's, that's a good question. Yeah. So that's, this is why community is so important. Um, in, when you think of identity. So sort of the identity process that we've, that we've discovered across people groups and religious groups and all that, is it's all about receiving. Right? It's not about self-generating. It's about receiving. And so receiving is what humans, when they're, when they're at their sort of highest level, is is where they're the most creative and the most joyful. So if you do, if you do a deep study of the history of the creative process in humanity, like, um, Mozart, or, or Isaac Newton, or any of these, any of these people that that dramatically shift the way we think about the arts or sciences or governance, um, when you go dig into their deep creative process, and there's great research written on this, um, it's called the Eureka process, is what a lot of people call it. What are the, what are the steps that these, how do these people come up with these ideas that no one's had? Right? I mean, there's so an imitator is just, we'll take, we'll take this object and try and make it cheaper, faster, and sell more of them. But a cre, a per, a true creator, which is what humans are, they're actual creators. True creators are creating things that change life. They bring new life. Imitators just create machines that do things faster.
So, but, you know, as we've talked about before, you, you do have to see something first. There has to be that. That's right. Um, and I've always thought that, you know, real creation, I've always thought that there's no real original idea. There's different arrangements. Yeah. You know, like, speak to that a little bit.
Okay. So, yeah, so let's stay in the creative process, because that's what this is about. So, um, so it's true that all thoughts are memory. So, so that's when you're, when we're saying is, is most of what humans are thinking through is all based in memory, okay? There's very few times in the day where we're having these original thoughts that we would use the word inspired. So they're breathed from above, so to speak. So when we say, so Van Gogh's paintings, or like when you're looking at them across time, they affect you. They have a visceral effect on you. We would say that's inspired. It's more that's not just memory happening there. And so inspired, most thought is memories coming from self-protect, self-promote, right? Reptilian brain. Prefrontal cortex is new idea. It's way up here. And it, and it, fear shuts down creativity because of the amygdala. Right? Right.
So how does that actually work? That, so the, the amygdala takes over the, uh, prefrontal cortex? Yes. So it's like a, it's like you have an elevator in your brain that starts down here at the lowest level of human, um, instinct. Is the, is the desire to attach. All humans want to be attached. They want to be attached to each other. They want to be attached to nature. Um, you know, just coming in and seeing your dogs, immediately everything about me wants to attach and to, to that. What, so that attachment idea is constant. It's constant. And so what happens, like I see your dog, and so it's like an elevator. So there's this desire to attach. It goes, it goes up into the assessment center, which is the library of what's happened when we've tried to attach here before, okay? And got it. And that's where the fear goes. It didn't work. The dog bit me, or I tried this and failed.
And it, explain that one more time, because I think that's a, I think that's a really big concept, because, you know, you have that memory of, of something bad with attachment, a bad relationship, exactly. Um, and then go on, just to look, because I, I feel like I'm almost there. So, so I have this longing to attach, even with an idea. Like, I, you know, I'm inspired, inspired. I have this thing way up here. It goes, I got to write a book. And then so I want to attach with that idea. So that the attachment intuition or instinct goes up into the assessment center, which is like, have we ever tried to write a book before? Have we ever? And the assessment center goes, yeah, and it was awful. Or, yeah, in third grade, you wrote a short story and you got a D. It's the, the memory. It's the library of the human experience. It's all the memory gone. And most of the time, that assessment center will shut it down because of fear. It'll, fear will come up. A fear of not being enough. That's right. Yeah.
That's interesting. Yeah, because, you know, I thought about the, the book thing is really fascinating. That my, my grandmother, uh, told always told all of us that, you know, everyone has a book inside them. And I believe that to be true. I think so, you know, and, um, it just seems like that sort of project, it seems like a daunting one, right? And, you know, like, who am I to be able to write a book?
That's the, that's the assessment center. You learned, little, little kids, you know, like my granddaughters and grandsons, they think that they're great singers. They think that they're beautiful. They think that they're great artists. They believe that. But they're going to build an assessment center that's going to tell them, no, they're not, based on someone saying, you're ugly, you're a terrible singer. And once those go into the memory bank, then every time we go to attach with an idea or an experience that's new, the assessment center's job, you know, evolutionarily speaking, is to protect, right? And so it'll say, no, that's dangerous. You got hurt there last time. Yeah. Right. Totally. And it happens in a sixth of a second. In a sixth of a second, that assessment center comes in and goes, you don't want to attach here. But if, if we didn't let the assessment center run our lives, which most people do, if we were, if we were grabbing hold of these thoughts and saying, okay, I have some fear in there. What's it from? Where did I learn it? Then it allows the idea to move forward into the attunement center of the brain, the midbrain, which is like, okay, how are we going to make this happen? Like, what, let's, let's go forward with this. And let's, let's tune ourselves with the idea progressing. And the goal is that it gets all the way up into the administrator of the prefrontal cortex, where it shifts over to like, let's, the executive, let's put this into action, which is a much slower process, okay? The ideas come full, all the way forward. We're going to do it. I'm going to try it. I realize I failed in the past, but failure is not my identity. My identi, my true identity is whatever you've discovered your true identity to be. This is my gift to the world. Um, failure is normal. Failure is okay. What have we learned from the failure? And let's let that thing come forward. This takes very distinct attention and awareness going on as your brain's working. And most humans aren't doing. They're just reacting.
Well, now I know what part of the podcast I'm going to be relistening to. Would be that about two-minute, uh, sound bite there. One thing that I, that I have to ask, because I think a lot of us go through this, you know, what if there's somebody who does want to be a Beyonce or a Michael Jordan, and there's, there's lots of people would say, well, that's not realistic. You know, you're not, like, you're not 6'6", you know what I mean?
Yeah. So that's right. So, like, that's clearly the assessment center, right? And I think part of that assessment could be accurate. It's, it's hugely valuable, but it's not the decision maker. It's the assessment center. It's assessing it. But what we let, then you choose. Then this choice, you, the real you chooses. So it's the idea of like, don't let your brain think. Your brain is doing what it is meant to do. It's assessing, it's warning, it's protecting. But the real you, the true you, is back from that going, right. I get that. Yes. I understand. Yeah. We did fail there last time. What did we learn? What did we do? And joy is what moves you forward.
Okay. So, I, I want to, I really want to dive into the joy part. And, uh, and I think what I caught from that segment is the assessment center certainly has a purpose. Absolutely. And but at the same time, joy is what can move you through that assessment. That's right. Versus fear, right? Fear of failing, fear of not being enough. And then again, and I want to touch on control here in a bit, but I would imagine you would start to feel more in control. It's like, yeah, you know, I went through the assessment, you know, the NBA might not be the best move for me, right? You know, because, you know, and then I'm going to try, I'm going to try this instead. And then I don't feel like a failure or not enough. I feel in control of my direction, right?
Okay. That's right. I'm the decision maker, not the assessment, not the reptilian brain. Okay. Right. I am the real me.
I think so many of us go through life with that happening and have no idea that's exactly right what's actually happening. Exactly right. And then I can see how that would lead to regret. Oh, huge. You know, like, oh my God, you know, like, I didn't go after it. That's what I wanted to do. That's right. Um, and, yeah, I'm getting chill bumps now because like, that's a real thing. I feel like a lot of people, you know, depression, if I, in another life, I would have been a musician or a writer, you know? And so hopefully, you know, people watching can get a lot from that, because you can start now.
That's the other, the other false belief along with that is like, you, is the idea that you missed it. It's never, it's never a true statement. You missed it means that that the idea can be out here and then it passed you and it cannot be retrieved. That is, it doesn't make even any sense in physics. Those, you're walking into events in your life, they're not coming towards you and past you, right? That's wrong thinking. So if I said, wow, when I was, I wish when I was 21 that I had done this, but now I'm 61. Like, that statement's not, has no truth to it at all.
Well, that's still the assessment center. That's right. That's right. You're too old. Yes. But some, I had to learn that. I'm too old. Yes. I would have never come up with that on my own. This society is teaching me. Well, you're too old. It's not true. Yes.
So how do, how do people, like, know, you know, that thing in your head that says, you know, I want to write, write a book, or I want to? How do we get more of that? 'Cause I, I think in my own life, like, had a hard time figuring out, okay, what, what are those things that I want?
So this is where, this is where you, you can call it meditation, prayer. It's where you have to shut down the automated processes going on in your mind and shut it down and let the real you talk come forward and speak. And the real you being the one out of unconditional love that we spoke about last time. Yes. So, so if you, and I did this together, it's very human. Do it. Can do it very quickly because it's humans have the biology of transcendence. Our biology is to go up and out to the stars. Every, this is how our whole biology is built.
Explain that. It's to dream and create. That's, that's what humans can do above any other creature. And so what we teach young kids, the younger they are, the more they are in the prefrontal cortex dreaming away. What, what we do is shut it down on them because that's not realistic. And you can't really live like that. And the world's not going to be nice to you. And we shut down. And we, we build up the assessment center to shut everything down, called risk aversion and all these sorts of things. Almost like a, it's, it's a, we self-protecting, self-preservers. And I think a lot, a lot of parents do that out of love. They do it out of love for their kids, not wanting them to be exposed to the failure, to the ridicule. You want to describe it, right? We would say it's out of love. But if we talk to the parent, which we do a lot, it's really out of fear. Parents really in their own head. It's out of love, you know, I'm protecting you. Right? But what they're really doing is projecting their own fear, yeah, on their children, based on their own failure or their own hurt.
So, so how do you stay or get into the prefrontal cortex, that dreamer creator mode? Yeah. And not be Uber distracted all the time? Yeah. How do, like, how do you pick a lane?
Right. So, so it's very simple. Like, like you and I could do it right now, because every human has the capacity to move into their imagination, right? On the spot. The imagination, the correct definition of the imagination is to image forth the unseen. True. Oh, explain. Okay. Explain. Right. So our imagination isn't going to let us get distracted. Like imagination is tied to ourselves. That's right. The true self. Got it. Right. So the, the, so my imagination is the capacity for my true self to see what is not seen yet, right? And that's, and what that produces in the human immediately is hope. So that's what you want. You want to imagine the unseen. You're seeing it, but it hasn't been seen yet. Yes. Right. And so that all the way back to the creative process. So if you, if you go back and read the research on the creative process, there's a very kind of distinct process that that, um, when you just distill down Mozart and all these people that they go through, is the very first thing they do is they ask a question that hasn't been asked before. They're just asking a question up here. They're not shutting it down. They're saying, they're asking a question. And then once they ask the question, they begin to search for an answer. And the reason they're searching for the answer is because the answer isn't there yet. Okay? Right. So Mozart could hear an entire symphony in his imagination. He could, he actually heard all the instruments. But he couldn't do it unless he was commissioned. So he couldn't just sit there and hear symphonies. He had, he had to say, the Archduke wants you to do a birthday sonata for his niece. And then as soon as he has the question, what would a birth? He, he can hear the answer. But he was already hearing it in his head. Then he had like something to attach it to. That's right. Okay. But, but only his identity could do it. Not other, other composers can't do it that way. Only he could do that unique thing. And then so it moves, it's way up here. And then what he has to do, and he says this, he has to go through the torture of writing down, making it seen, writing down the notes, right? And so Einstein is imagining when he's in eighth grade that he's flying around on a lightning bolt. That's, that's the picture he sees. That's his imagination. Right? But only his identity would be imaging that because it's who the truth of who he is sees those kinds of things. Then he has to develop the idea. Well, what would it look like if I was traveling at the speed of light? And then he has to study physics and all of that to bring that idea into four papers that he wrote that everyone thought was insane until they realized it was the most brilliant thing ever written. So what he's doing is he's allowing, and he had to leave formal school to do it, he's allowing himself to let his true identity come out in his imagination so that he can bring that into truth and into reality.
So you and I could do that right now together. I, I love that. And I, and I can automatically see how, you know, that is bringing your identity into the world as an added value to the world. Exactly. Versus out of a selfish, I want to stand out. Right? That's super fascinating.
Exactly. And so, so what Einstein and Newton and Kepler and, and Mozart, and an artist, artist that, I mean, there was an actual artist because all art was painted two-dimensionally, very flat. And one day there was an artist that just said, I wonder if I stood over here and painted the person from this direction, what that would do for the world? It would make us see the world differently because we'd see it with depth. One person thought of that, where in his imagination, and he started to paint it, and he changed all of art.
You know, it feels like, and I think this might be where a lot of our fear comes from. There are some stories in our heads that we've been taught how those types of people seem crazy, right? And you don't want to be crazy. That's right. You know, right? So that's how the scarcity worldview shuts down creativity. Yes. And so we could, you know, it's the idea that, are we as humans creating things that bring life and joy to our world, or are we just creating things that create profit? Correct. And I think the, the thing that, you know, I'm going to get out of this, and I hope a lot of other people will, is that, you know, these are things that we can do every single day. Yes. You know, and, you know, the theme of this whole episode is going to be joy, right? And, you know, even as you're talking, I can just, I can sense how that would bring joy to everyone's life, you know, yourself, the one who's actually doing it, right? And the people around them, you know, and, uh, you know, it's just, it's just fascinating, but it starts with the true identity. That's right. Right? And you find that with the, you, you asked some questions before to find that true identity. Yes. If I can, I'll, I'll recite what I remember, okay? Yeah. Um, I believe the, the way to find our true identity is to think about, you know, the negative things. That's right. That, uh, you hear about yourself that you've been taught, right? And that you've agreed with, that and that you agree with. So, yeah, you know, without, um, without knowing it, you're acting from a source of, I'm not enough, right? Or, you know, I'm ugly, I'm fat, something like that, right? And then I remember you saying, you go to what unconditional love would say about you. You first get that. And then unconditional love would never say that about you, right? So it rips it up, right? And then, you know, you go to what unconditional love would say about you in placement of it, right? And then you be that, right? Okay. Yes. Is that the, is that the process?
Very simply, that. Yes. And then you're that. You're being that. And then you let your imagination work for you. That's right. Flow from that. Then you start, what is, what is your unique identity? See that other identities will never see. That's your gift to the world. And that's what you were saying about not having your identity tied to a particular job, a particular spouse, right? You know, a particular perception. That's right. Um, because this is something that goes with you everywhere.
And, right. I've, I've, I've always believed. I've, um, told, you know, my family this, and anybody who I felt like was struggling with passion, I've always, I've always felt strongly that, um, you can bring passion to anything. Like your passion is yours. That's right. And then you can find a way to be passionate about, you know, the thing that you're doing. Yes. Would you agree with that?
Yes. And, and so if you think about how much this just declutters our life, if we realize I have a distinct identity, you have a distinct identity. Um, if, if I come to you with the idea that you have a unique identity, that's a gift to the world, it's very hard for me to dismiss you as less than me. You cannot have racism and prejudice in a world where everyone recognizes that everyone has a distinct and beautiful identity, that's a gift to the world. Then you can't form a racist system in that. To form a racist system, you have to believe that some people are less important than other people, some people have more value than other people. And what happens is our kids are growing up, all of us are growing up, going, that poor person is more valuable in the world than me. It's absolutely false, but it creates a hierarchy, it creates a meritocracy, it creates separation. And the whole thing is built on the idea of my identity is not worth it. I need to have the identity of. It's not, it's not like saying, I want to be, when I see someone like Beyonce or someone like that, the right thing to say is, wow, that person understands the depth of who they are and they've pursued it. I want to do that. I don't want to be them. That's the mistake. Yes. I want to do what they're doing. I want to be able to live as they live. Right.
Okay. So, you know, what would, it seems to me that order is still important. Yes. You know, order and I think authority is important. Yeah. All of it. And, um, and I'm, I don't think you're saying that there's none of that. No. You know, I, I think what you're saying is that it's, they're not better because they're in that authoritative position. And we, we all have authority in different ways. Yes. You know what I mean? Right. Expertise. Yes. From the president to the mayor to, they all, it's all different things, right? You know, it could be, you could have authority within, you know, a particular, uh, group. Right. Now, what would you say to that? Like, like, how do you approach being in an authoritative position with this mindset of, because I, because you're, I think it's exactly right. I'm no better than you. They're no better than me. We're all humans. You know, but I clearly have to make the decision here, right? You know, yes, because there has to be some sort of order. I think I don't know.
No, no, you're right. So think of this, this is why identity is again, so important. So, um, just as practically, as there's lots of practical ways to think about this, but so we, we were called in, um, as part of an initiative to, um, counter this terrorist activity in a certain region of the country. There was a team that was sent in to, um, to do that. And this is, this has nothing to do with military arms. This is all, um, peace-building. And so anytime fear is used to gain power and control is a form of terrorism. So you could say the media is terrorist. You know, there's a lot you could say. Anyway, this team was sent in there to do that, and they were unsuccessful. They were not able to do it. So we were brought in to work with the team, the, the team that was sent in to counter the terrorist activity, right? They, they failed. They were unable to do what they were sent to do. So we went to meet with the team. Um, and so what we did with the team was, instead of saying, what did you do? Did you do this? Were you effective in this? We pulled the team out and we walked each team member through identity. They hadn't been through any kind of ident, they were just experts in their vocation, which doesn't really mean anything necessarily. But still, like, there's some, like, I, I really admire people who are good at their craft, right? You know, that's right.
So, so, so how do you make them the best they could be at their craft? So you're saying they're great at their craft, but they're not the best they can be because they're operating out of a, out of the scarcity mindset? Yes. And so, so all we did, we took them for four days and we walked each one of them individually through false identity into their true identity. That's what we did with each team member. Where did their false identity start? Like, what? Well, everyone's, everyone's when I was in third grade. Like, it's always that way. Is it? Is it? Are you seeing any similarities? I'm not enough. Yes. Always the same. It's always, it's always gets down to, yeah, I'm, I'm ashamed of who I actually am, or I feel bad about who I actually am. Yeah. What it always goes. Interesting. Every human in the world. When you get, when we got over to work with the actual terrorist folks, they were all the same. It was the same issue. Yeah. Both sides had the same issue. But when we got with this team, so this team, vocationally, are skilled. You can train a person to be really good at a vocation and to make a lot of money in it. It doesn't mean anything I'm about him is healthy. Got it. Right?
And because I, I think the big question I had after our last conversation was like, okay, is it okay to be ambitious? Is it okay to be successful? You know, and because I, I'm a big, I like, I really connect with the love thing, but I also connect with the, you know, I want to win thing. Sure. Right? We, and we want this team to be successful. We do. And so, so, um, so when we were working with them, um, what we were interested in is not this, how they were functioning together as a team. That's what we were interested in. Yes. Yes. Because again, you can have a very successful corporation where there's blood in the boardroom, as they say, where it's just cutthroat. You either produce or you're out. You can get high production people, but they're not humans, they're creatures. We say, you know, what's interesting is, and I know it is possible, but it seems like in corporations, you know, in lots of different together groups, it's natural to be in self-preservation mode because you want to keep your job. Exactly. Right? If you do too good of a job, you might be out of a job. That's right. So again, so this keeps coming back to the same issue. So we walk through the false identities of each person, and they're like, wow, so a lot of what I'm good at, I'm only good at it because I'm just self-promoting or self-protecting, and it's unhealthy. Right? Exactly. Right. Let's move into the true you. And so, so we did it with them. They don't know. They're, they're not interacting with each other. So when we got to true identity, and we, you know, walked them into, you can't tell someone a true identity. They have to discover it because it's their own identity. So each one of them discovers their true identity, and they wrote it down on a three-by-five card, okay? Their true identity. Then we pulled the team all back together, and I just put all the true, we've done this a lot with corporations. I just put all their true identities up on, in randomly up on a board. And no, no names. No names. Okay? Yeah. And I said, out of these identities, let's build the hierarchy of the team. Which, which, which identity would you want in leadership? And they, they all pointed to the same identity. Of course, we'd want this identity in leadership. Okay? That's the leader. Okay? No names involved. No gender involved. Okay? Um, who, who needs to be like the out-front person? Which is different than the leader. Who needs to be the out-front person? Well, one of the identities in the group was Scout. Okay? That was their identity. And they said, well, we put Scout out front. Right? Okay? So now we, okay, who would be in charge of like, like the inner relationship between the team members? And there was Beloved. Was one of the, Beloved would be in charge of. And so we organized the whole team based on their true identity, instead of on their resume. Yeah. And, and then as we started doing, as we got more into it, they started to say, we know who that is. We know that identity. But it hasn't been in that person. That person, the Scout was in charge. Where's the Scout? All the time. They're never there. Of course, they're not there. They're scouts, right? So they had a great team, but they were all in the wrong identity. So once they organized themselves in their unique identities, we inserted them back in. Phenomenal. But what they did then was, when they worked with the insurgents, they walked all the insurgents through identity. So go crazy. Do you see? They became a highly effective, one of the best teams out there.
Can you do that? Can you treat yourself as that organization? Almost, you know, because most of us, I would say a lot of us are not in a big, you know, organization. We're going to wrap up here just in a minute, but, you know, uh, is it effective on ourselves, you know, going through that? And then if you know, you're the Scout, right? You're going to be doing Scout things. That's right. You know, and when things offered to you, jobs or whatever, that aren't Scout things, you'll say no. Total. You don't have to worry about it, agonize over it. It's like, I don't do it. It's not like I can't do that. It's not who I am.
It's amazing when we say, when we're talking to HR people, and we're saying, did you interview that person's true identity or their false identity for this job? And the HR person is like, I don't even know what that is. That means you interviewed their false identity. And so you're doing bad hires. You're hiring based on self-protection and self-promotion of the person you're interviewing. Yeah. None of it's right. Yeah. And it results in this crazy fragmented world that we're in.
In a season where we can feel especially, you know, in the year 2021, we can feel so disconnected. And we can feel, uh, I feel like around this time, you know, Thanksgiving into December, we feel scarcity more than ever. Wow. Yeah. Do you think, you know, in terms of what people can take home with them today, if they get into this true identity and pass their assessment center, do you think that alone will help the scarcity mindset and the feeling of disconnectedness?
Yes. Yeah. In fact, so like, if, so, so for a Thanksgiving dinner, my family, my in-laws, uh, are, you know, very politically, sure, active. And we have different viewpoints in there. But so if you're going to have a Thanksgiving dinner and you're going to have, can you have a healthy, joyful discussion of it? Absolutely. You can. It's realizing that the person who's the most upset is the person who's in the greatest fear. And so instead of, instead of their fear will attack and project, instead of like fighting back against the fear, it's understand the fear. This person believes if this candidate wins, we're all going to die. That's what they believe. And because of that, they're in panic mode. So you're not trying to debate politics with them. You're trying to help them understand their fear and help walk them out of their fear. When you're, I do this with my people in my family a lot because I know what they're afraid of. And it's not, it's more about, we feel like if this happens in our country, we're going to be left behind. And this is the ultimate fear of people. We're going to be powerless and alone. That's what people are afraid of. To be powerless and alone.
Completely. Because again, I keep going back to this, and I, shoot, I'd like to ask you about control if I have a couple minutes, but powerless, you know, I find myself in my most anxious states when when I feel out of control. That's right. That's a very human, common fear. And it's a, it's very much a, in my head, out of control, not an actual out of your control, right? But is that, so that is our greatest fear? Powerless? Powerless. Powerless and alone. Powerless and alone. Right. I'm not only am I powerless, there's no one with, I'm not in community. I'm alone. So how do you talk to that person? And how do you be that person when you realize it's you, you know, if you're at a family function or, you know, in a team meeting, right?
So one is, is helping the person understand that that is in fact what they're, what they're afraid of. They're not afraid of Democrats and Republicans. That's just how they, that's how they see it or visualize it. It's actually not what they're afraid of. It really, it really kind of doesn't matter who's running the show, right? Because because the truth is, no human is ever powerless, and they're and they're never alone. It's never true. It's a lie. And that's why your whole inner being is freaking out, going, we, we got to stop believing this lie that we're powerless and alone, because powerless and alone people do things that hurt themselves and others, right? And so it's helping the person realize, so what if they win? Like, let's keep going. What if they win? What happens to you? Well, blah, blah, blah. And then just, okay, so, okay, so what, say, let's say that happens. Do you end up, and in some cases, this might be real, do you end up homeless and under a bridge somewhere? Because that's what you're afraid of. That is what you're afraid of. That you're going to be bankrupt, that you're going to be powerless and alone. Where did you learn that that's what's going to happen? You had to be taught that this is going to be the result of failure in your life.
So what do you say to the person who, you know, I know there's people out there who want to be prepared, you know, for, you know, say, if, you know, things go poorly in our country, they want to
Be prepared, and I've always felt like being prepared wasn't necessarily a bad thing. So, being prepared for bad things happening, right? But how do you do that out of like, not out of this source of, you know, powerlessness and aloneness, right?
So whenever, so whenever a, whenever a false structure has been built, it's going to fall one day. And so the people who are prepared are the ones that are, that when it falls, they're going to rise up. I love that. And and they, and so the, the collapse fills them with joy and hope. And they're the ones talking about it all the time. Joy and hope, joy and hope. It kind of goes along with, you know, the best investors, you know, always kind of hope for a, a bare market. That's right. Yeah, exactly. Because they see opportunity where other people see disaster. Yeah, right.
And and so the true identity, the true identity doesn't get its identity from circumstances or from conditions. It stands up. It, it, it's the, you know, it's the one that no matter what the circumstance is, we're going to have hope. We're gonna have joy because we're, we're never powerless and we're never alone, no matter what's going on. So, so how can we prepare for disaster? Understand your identity. Be in community with other people that understand identity. And let's start going against the lie that we're in now. We don't have to wait for a disaster to stay. And the lie being that we're going to end up powerless and alone, that we're in a scarcity world, that it's, that it's all, um, you know, dog eat dog. It's not true.
So in understanding that, I feel like automatically puts you in the control position now. And I've got to let you go here in a second, but like, I feel like often times, you know, you've heard the term control freak, and how that's a negative. Yes, that's a negative perception, right? You know, but at the same time, I understand about myself that I'm closer to my best self when I feel in control. Right. What you're, you're, you're, you're more truthful about the way things are when you realize that things are not out of control. Say that one more time. I got you're in your, you're the truest part of the, your true identity knows all the time that things are not out of control. So it's not a matter we have control. It's just, it's just that things are not out of control. There's no such thing. This is going to go this way. Whatever way this goes, we're going to be okay. That's the perfect kind of sense of control. Interesting. Because I, when I feel like I'm a control freak myself, right, I feel like I'm scrapping, like I'm trying to get everything back into control, right? That, see, that puts all the weight of it on your shoulders. Yeah. And that's not, that's deadly. So it's, it's, it's not like I'm in control. It's just this real that we're in. It's okay. It's for us. It's okay. It doesn't look like it in this season or this situation, but it is actually.
I ask people all the time, do you think, do you believe down here that the universe is for you or against you? And most people believe it's against them, that they're fighting an uphill battle. Is that something that, you know, people can consciously change through? Is it simply through affirmation? Or like, how do you truly believe that when you feel like you didn't actually believe that? And you, and you just said like, people actually don't believe it because, because everything that we believe, we've learned. Yeah. Okay. Right. And so any of it can be unlearned, and new things can always be learned.
And so I just remember, I was walking around with this architect, um, who's a very interesting, fascinating woman. And and we were walking around outside, and she says, "You want to do all your building without moving any of the earth." And I'm like, "That's impossible." And she saids, said, "No, that's the only way to really build. You want to move in unison with the Earth and what the Earth is already doing." What we do is chop the Earth up and subdivide it to try and make money off of it. This is going against the control that's already in place. We're violating it and putting ourselves in control, which creates immediate stress. Well, thinking we're putting ourselves in control, right? Which we're not. Which we're actually not.
So then, so then she said to me, "Do you think anything out in nature thinks it's in the middle of a problem right now?" It never, never. Only humans come up with that idea. There is no problem. Are there things to to grow through and around and over? Are things going to die? Yes. And but is that a problem? No, that's part of the whole beauty of the whole system. Yeah. Is and so to go in that system and introduce the idea, "Well, this is a problem. We got to cut this back and move this over here," is to put control on yourself, which produces isolation and separation, ation and anxiety.
It's like the universe has one goal: all to live. Yes. And will the universe die? It doesn't even. In the black hole, now they think it bounces back into life, right? But it h, why does it die? To create the new. But it's not going into oblivion. And so when you realize the whole system is for life, it's the system's not trying to kill itself. Only humans are doing that, right? The system is for life. And and and challenges, you know, when they had the big oil spill in the Gulf, and it's like, "That's going to ruin it for centuries." The Earth does things that we don't know that it can do. It has ways of dealing with woundedness, and it recovers. It's built, it's created to recover from damage. And so our humans, humans are amazingly resilient, but we, but they're only resilient in moving in what's true, and never in what's false.
And real quick, how do we find out what is true? Like, is there a feeling we have when we know that we're walking in truth? All humans know what's true, and all humans know what's false. The hard things for humans is to tell the truth about their fear. So what we, it's the word to truth, tell to confess. Very first part of of of wellness is to be able to say, "I'm sick." E, right? It's all like what, you know, that's like with Alcoholics Anonymous, exactly. With any, with with any move towards true, you have to be able to say, "What's, what, what's true about you? I hate myself. I'm disappointed in myself." That's the first step forward. And then you realize that that's false. That's right. You have to say what you believe. And then there has to be a way of knowing, "Is this true or false?" So that's always the first step. It's more important that the person is able to tell the truth about the things that they believe that are false, because until they do that, they can never receive what's true. True. So good. Once they, but it's, it's an, it's not a hard process. That's so good. It scares people. That's why they won't do it. But once they start to say the truth, then they realize about themselves. And they realize, "Yeah, but is that really the truth about you?" It's not. Isn't that liberating? Doesn't that give you hope? And that g, that's like that clearly is on the road to believing the truth. That's right.
Jamie, man, this has been a blast. Man, thank you so much. My pleasure. We're going to wrap up there, guys. Thank you so much for hanging out with us today on this episode of Outside the Box. I got Jamie Winchip here. I am Ben Rogers, your host. Thank you for being with us as always. We'll see you guys next time. [Music]