Voices of Destiny 3

Okay, our unique destiny in our lives. Before we do that, just want to pray, and I will go right after it. Father, thank you for your grace. Thank you for the way that you speak and lead us into health and hope. I pray today that again, you would baptize us afresh in your voice, to give it immerses again in who you are. Would you be to us this day our great high priest, the one who leads us in wholeness and life? In Jesus' name, amen. Amen.

So guys, we're gonna jump in. If you've just joined us, you've missed some wonderful sessions together. Today, we're gonna unpack the voice of the priest. This is the voice of formation in our life. The voice of a friend is the voice of connection. Of course, we started with the voice of the enemy, the voice that brings disruption into our lives. And of course, every voice is necessary in moving towards our destiny and unfolding that in our lives. The voice of the friend is the voice of love, but the voice of the priest is the voice of healing. It's the voice that God stands into our life, particularly in times when we need restoration and wholeness and growth. And so knowing that actually allows us to trigger in ourselves. This is actually when I want to have those kind of conversations. These are the moments when I want to schedule these. Am I hurting somewhere in life? Then I probably want to get around someone who can speak healing into that. Am I feeling stuck in growth, and I'm looking for someone who can begin to activate that growth? Every voice moves us forward, but the voice of the priest is crucial in maturity. Again, thinking that Romans 12 text together of good, perfect, pleasing will. The voice of a friend activates and helps us enjoy pleasures and ensures that we have playful pleasure in life. The voice of the priest is designed to help us move towards perfection, or as it is in the Greek, there, it helps us mature. And so again, we're looking for that voice as a voice of maturity and address these barriers in our character, the wounds in our soul, the offense in our heart, and the missing surrender in our lives. It's a pretty, uh, cutting voice at times, pretty crucial.

I remember the first time really experiencing the voice of a priest in my life. I'd showed up at college. There was a guy there, and I think I was complaining about something, and he looked to me, he said, "Get off the cross, we need the wood." Nobody's ever said that to me. Everybody else has kind of been very gentle in their approach, but he was very direct in cutting through this self-pity that was manifesting in my life in that moment. And the voice of a priest will do that. It'll be pretty cutting with us, but it will be crucial in removing offense from our life. It speaks the truth in love, so that in all things, we can learn how to grow up.

Um, one of the things about the voice of a priest is that while a friend shatters the isolation in our life, the voice of the priest shatters ambition in our life. Priests are people of limited ambition, low ambition. It's one of the reasons historically they've lived far from culture. They've lived kind of isolated lives because they don't pursue the same things that other people pursue. And you can begin to recognize a priest by their posture in that. So they'll shatter false ambition or flawed ambition. He'll expose the shadow missions, the, the things that we go on that we kind of put God's name on, but are really us. Our core. Priests will unpack that. They question our connections. They'll look at the associations we've developed in our life. We'll look at that a little bit later. And, uh, we absolutely need them. We need the invitation of the priests. We need the inspection that they bring into our lives. We need the immersion in the voice of God, and the interruption that they bring to us. And of course, we're learning in this together, the, the voices that safeguard us and that help us move into and schedule the next season.

And if our friends help us give and receive love fearlessly, to feel the wound and grieve the wound, and to rejoice in us for our presence, and don't really pay much attention to our purpose, our priests is a very different kind of conversation. Give me an example in this. While I was writing the notes for this a number of weeks ago, late July, one of my uncles died. And during his life, he had struggled. Before he was a believer, he'd struggled with addiction. And he always had people in his life. Anytime you'd go to his home, his home would just be surrounding with people. One of those people who had tons of friends. But when I look back in his life, I see that he had lots of people who were the voice of a friend, but very few who would set a new foundation in his life, who would question his connections, who would speak into his addiction with a voice that would propel him forward. He had the voice of connection, but he didn't have the voice of formation. And we need new connections for different life foundations.

So we're going to get after this. We're going to jump in together in the conversation in the text and recognize again that this is the voice that signals and triggers the season of restoration. So we start meeting people like this, it's, it's often an indicator that God wants to take us on a journey of restoration. We start, um, when it's a friend speaking like this, it can be really hard to hear because it feels like inappropriate for the relationship. But when God wants to lead us in this, he introduces this. It's invaluable because friends often will weep with us, but they really will struggle to win this. They'll struggle to speak in a way that is at times harsh, but necessary. Or let me rephrase that, that feels harsh, that feels like, oh my goodness, why are you speaking this to me? They'll struggle to do that. They might hold back in the truth because they're afraid to risk the relationship. I think all of us in the call today would say it's never our favorite thing to go into the red zone with someone, into dangerous territory in a relationship, and risk that to actually say something that is a blind spot in their life, an area that in the character that's unaddressed, or in their connections. Um, friends often won't enter that recovery and restoration process with us because they don't want to communicate rejection. That's the last thing they want to do. It's the voice of connection. They don't want to in any way, in any way, communicate a sense of rejection around that.

But you also need to know, we need to know when is the time, okay? When I need to sit with my friends, I can champion and cheerlead my own heart. I need to find someone who's going to help me grow here, and someone who's going to move me forward. So the priest is triggering that season of restoration. You have that there, that in your notes today, the seasons, the season of recovery. Again, is how you're beginning to realize, hey, this is moving towards a season of restoration in my life and a season of resource. And it's clear, isn't it, that the voice that speaks to our pleasure may not desire to or be able to speak to our surrender. But actually, those two things almost feel mutually exclusive. That someone encouraging us to suck in the marrow of life will really speak to us and say, look, you need to surrender who you are. And so they may be ill-equipped, or friends may be ill-equipped to see the barriers in her character. They may be uncomfortable around your new quest for character. You've changed, you're not the same person, you're, you're not as fun anymore, you don't enjoy the same things. And there's an awareness in them that you are changing, that something is shifting in that.

So the voice of the priest, it deals with our inner health and wholeness. Friends help us give and receive love fearlessly. Voice, the priest deals with our inner health and wholeness. They speak to the areas of our soul that are not yet healed, that have the potential to sabotage our future, to God's calling in our life, to derail our destiny. And it's the gift of the priest, and every life needs it. It's one of the reasons, guys, that I wanted to put this together. As I look around the church, I see so many people who are crying out for different friendships, deeper friendships, dynamic friendships, friendships that add dimension to their lives, but also putting an enormous weight upon individuals to fulfill all five of these voices in their life. And then becoming confused and offended and disappointed when someone speaks to them with a particular voice, because they've got no grid or framework for actually, this is how destiny unfurls in our lives, that we need this voice.

Now, the, the primary focus of the priest, then, is because they're people of integrity and purity and surrender. That's the things that hallmark that, just think of that, even characteristically or how it's depicted in cinema and all that stuff. Because that's their primary thing, the primary focus, then, is covenant obedience. That's what the priest is constantly after. That's with that voice, where are you? Where do you stand in relation to covenant? Where are you in relation to the covenant? In this, it's more than a mentor. And, and just the emergence of their voice, I said, it will begin to schedule new seasons, but it will do it by awakening us to the wounds that are within us, the things that can infect our soul. And so the conversation with the priest is a little less natural, it's a little less superficial, too. It'll go deep, and they'll go deep pretty quickly. You know, you're with a priest because they don't really do small talk. They're not really interested in that. They just want to ask some pretty penetrative questions on what's going on in your world. What is the thing? A priest might ask questions like this: What are the three values governing your life today? You know, when your mind wanders, what does it wander towards? They'll just ask you questions that perhaps other people don't even think to ask. You know, how can you be certain that your life mission is on track in this season, uh, rather than, "Hello, hope you enjoyed your coffee. How was the doughnut?" They're, they're going straight to, they're getting straight. And so it feels a little more gear change, it feels a little more awkward in that, because they're concerned about the inner working of your world and rebuilding the broken places of our soul. And so because of that, the conversations typically center around our character and covenant. That's a great thing to know. And when you want to go after character, when God is speaking to you in character development, when you have a sense that all is not well with your soul, that's the conversation to search.

We can actually see this right now culturally. We talk about these voices in different ways, but culturally, you can see, pardon me, that our culture is in a season of surrender right now. There's some things being reset and shifting. There's hard questions being asked. There's some inspection coming. You can see that across the church, even right now. You can see that these things actually have seasons beyond an individual. And the purpose of this course is just to speak into that individually and recognizing, hey, I might be in a season of surrender right now, and I need healthy conversations filled with examination. I said a couple of weeks ago on this, this is a little bit like a doctor's examination. They're going to, they're going to put you through the rigors just to figure out where is the area of disease or this in our soul. They're going to figure that out and work with this in that. They're going to look at the winds of rejection and offense, the sense of entitlement, any dishonor that lurks in the corner of our hearts. I say to our staff around our place, you know, I feel like I've been, we as a church have been in this season for such a long time. And over the last nine, gosh, 12 months now, it's September 29th last year. I feel like the voice of the priest is the voice that I've carried in our house. And those of you who are, uh, speakers or leaders or pastors or whatever you're working in, and that there's times, actually, even in business, where you're calling the company to trim the fat and you're examining things and expecting things and all that stuff. And likewise, in the role that I have, there's an awareness, hey, there's just times when you call the community into deeper surrender. Now, of course, that's always, there's like warfare, surrender is always part of the dynamic in it. But in this way, it's incredibly, um, focused in particular seasons in our life.

And so the priest wins us so that we can enter fullness. Now, because all of that, we typically don't run towards the priest. It's not the conversation we gravitate towards, and not the people we typically like to hang around. They're, um, typically considered far too intense to have much enjoyment around. They're not the people you go to the pub with for a beer. They're not especially relaxing. And friends don't say, "Do you know how we should call up? We should call up the local monastery because we're going for a night out, right?" But you get them in their zone. Remember, I think it was 2008 or 2009, where Catherine and I were doing a retreat in Slovakia with a group of priests, as that happens from, uh, oh gosh, I don't know, it's about 120 of them and nuns. And we get to this retreat, and I don't mean to offend anyone in this, but we, we land at the retreat, and they open up kegs. I mean, kegs of beer that they've brought to the street. And we had some of the best fun that we've had with those people. But they're typically not the people that you would go to in that moment. The, the, they're not especially relaxing. There's a purity and an urgency about who they are, and there's an intensity to their voice. And so particularly in seasons where we're tempted to hide our hearts when things aren't well, and that's probably the worst thing about them. They have like this radar to know, like they just know. And, and you think, like, we're pulling the wool over the eyes of others, but the priest just sees through it. It's like, it's a painful, painful person to be around. And then those moments in our soul when we're hiding a little bit, there's that temptation to avoid that conversation. But in order to get healthy, in order to get full, it's absolutely necessary.

Of course, in our life, they represent the voice of God, our healer, and they help us move towards healing in that. It's often actually the conversation of leaving and grieving, because it is that season of restoration. It's marked with surrender. This is the conversation. If you've been through a transition in your life, and which is partly why it's been so rich in my life in recent years, is when you come through a season of surrender, the priest is invaluable in learning to leave what you've left and to grieve that and also begin to move on to the next part of that. The priest won't let you away with anything else than showing your whole self. Like she will just go after you. And that, in fact, is one of the reasons that Jesus would say again and again, "Go, show yourself to the priest." Remember, he would do this again and again. He says, "Go, show yourself." In order for you to be restored to community and not damage others, you have to go through the priest. That's what Jesus was saying in that moment, because that's what they did in those communities. And it's the same. The priest is the gatekeeper of health in the community. And so the voice of the priest moves us towards that. They will not tolerate anything less. That is how you disqualify yourself from ongoing connection with a priest. If you betray them, if you pretend, if there's any lack of integrity in your life, they'll just close it down. They will not work with someone who represents one thing but really is another. They can cope with anything you've brought them because they deal with confession, so to speak, all day long. They don't mind how dark it is, they just want it to be honest. And the moment there's this honesty, you just close off the voice of the priest in your life. You won't easily win them back in that moment. Uh, they will not entertain an authentic. And in that.

So let's lean into it together. Let's get after the fullness of the conversation in the scripture there. And, uh, you have it with you. It's First Samuel 21. David, uh, went to Nob to Ahimelech the priest. And Ahimelech trembled when he met him. And he asked, "Why are you alone? Why is no one with you?" He's just straight into questions. David answered the priest, "The king sent me on a mission." This is David's shadow mission surfacing. He said to me, "No one is to know anything about the mission I'm sending you on. As for my men, I've told them to meet me at a certain place. Now then, what do you have on hand? Give me five loaves of bread, or whatever you can find." I want you just to notice there, um, just for a moment, that David tried to dodge the questions because he's doing what everyone wants from the priest. They want the insight without the inspection. That's why we go to priests. We know they have insight. We like their insight, and we want what they have in their hand, but we don't want what they go after in our heart. And David is in that place. He's like, "Just give me, give me what I need, and I'll get on my way. I don't want to spend more time with you than I have to." The priest answered David, "I don't have any ordinary bread on hand. However, there is some consecrated holy bread here, provided the men have kept themselves from women." Again, that's that covenant thing. David replied, "Indeed, women have been kept from us, as is usual whenever I say that the men's bodies are holy, even on missions that are not holy. How much more so today?" So the priest gave him the consecrated bread, since there was no other bread except the bread of the presence, being before the Lord. David asked him, "Don't you have a spear or a sword here? I haven't brought my sword or any other weapon because the king's mission was urgent." The priest replied, "The sword of Goliath, the Philistine, whom you killed in the valley, is here. If you want it, take it. There is no sword here but that one." And David said, "There is none like it. Give it to me."

So as we go through this, we see some of the areas here that is pretty clear in the, what a priest, the voice of the priest does. The, it's the voice that questions connections, associations, and motivations. They take an interest in our spiritual journey and in our relational history, all with the goal of helping us connect with our humanity and connect with humanity at large. They do that through the process of inspection. They know that the future of our life never rises above the culture of our hearts. So they're constantly inspecting that, they're constantly looking at that, constantly engaging in that. A friend will let you live within yourself, but a priest won't let you go until you live beyond yourself. So they call us to surrender. You know, the voice of a priest in Christendom, they ever vote, uh, quoting Bonhoeffer, "If Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die." That's the voice of a priest. There's so many people who bring this clarion call to priesthood. I think of, um, my friend Simon, who's out in Burundi, and just the call that he brings in that to priesthood. It's like, you leave everything, you give it all up, you lay it down, and they just go after that again and again because they want us to live beyond ourselves. And a priest can't stand by and watch Wendy by her past or wondering when it comes to her purpose. Other people let you wonder when it comes to your purpose. A priest is just going to speak into that. She's going to go after it. She's going to get into it with you. "You're wasting your life. You're wasting your time." Like it's none of your business. The priest makes it their business. The friend might back off. The priest is always going to make it their business because they care about your destiny, they care about your character, they care about the covenant. And the principle, as we said, first time we gather in this, guys, is the principle that fuels the relationship of the priest is this: For the priest, I must care more about their relationship to God than their response to me. I must care more about their relationship to God than their response to me. And that's a huge thing. That's why they are priests. And they, they're really asking this: Am I willing to be misunderstood in this relationship for the sake of the health of this person? Am I willing for them to consider me a voice of judgment in their life? Am I willing for them to consider me someone who's constantly going after them in order to help them get healthier?

Now, healthy priests, we're going to pick up a little bit of the shadow side of this a little later. But healthy priests have a trembling in their heart. They deal with the holy. And so when they come to people, they recognize that human hearts are holy ground. And so they're, they're not just blase, they're not just like having conversations, would say. They know, probably more than any other voice, they know what it is that they are dealing with on the inside of the human heart, and they know it's sacred ground. And so they don't just barge in on that. But because it's sacred ground, they want to remove everything that is the sacred in that. There's courage in every interaction with the priest because there's a lot of fears that go around that. It's one of the things that I love about the priests in my life. They step over their fear to bring me into healing. And again, blessed is the person who has that voice in their life.

Do you notice that Ahimelech was afraid? He was afraid when David came to him. He was trembling. He's looking at him like, "What's going on here?" And he asked that question, "Why are you alone? Why is there no one with you?" And really saying, "Hey, what are you running from? Like, you're busy with activity, but where are you going? Like, I know, I can see there's a lot of status in your life, but what's going on under the surface? What's happening with you? What's happening in your heart? Are you heading the right direction?" While this connection with the friend, with the priest, there is just this loving confrontation. They're going to bring healthy kingdom confrontation in our life. A king will honor you, and a priest will confront you, just continuously do that. So they look at those areas of our life, and all of that, they're dealing with the inner health and wholeness, helping us on our history, helping us move towards our destiny. And all the while, they're turning up the volume of truth. Like that's all they're doing is just, are you living in truth? Are you living out truth? Uh, yeah. And was that text in 1 John, you know, "walking in the light, we have fellowship with one another." And so they're just pulling it all into the light because they don't believe that it's possible to have authentic relationship until everything is brought into the light.

So the enemy brings adversity, and the friend brings empathy, then the priest brings clarity. They're just turning that up all the time, just the voice of clarity. They help us face up to what's going on, forcing us again into periods of reflection in our life, please of examination. "How did I get here?" Again, taking a scenario of someone, just really any area that we go through in life, but a relational breakdown. The priest will sit with us in our reflections. We ask, you know, "How did it get to this? How did this happen? What went wrong? What was in them? What was in me? Where are we going to go? How do we move this forward?" In a health crisis, a priest will sit with the person, just reflect on them in that. Marital crisis, whatever area it is.

David says to me, says, "Don't let anyone know anything. The king has said to me, don't let anyone know anything of the business which I'm sending you." And he's really saying, "Hey Ahimelech, it's none of your business what I'm doing right now. King said to me, don't tell anyone your business, David." So I'm not going to tell you. And like, and he just doesn't get away with that. He probably would have got away with that with anyone else, but again, not with the priest. And what he's doing there is he's, I wish we were in a room together to chat this through, but he's deflecting. This is classic deflection. This is classic hiding. This is classic avoiding the issue. He's lying. He won't allow the priest into the interior of his soul. So it's like, "Hey, the king has told me this is royal seal. We can't deal with that." And he's lying in a place of accountability. And he says, "Give me, give me what I need. Give me provision." And the priest comes back to him again. He's just robust in his exchange. He says, "I have provision for you, David, but it really depends on covenant. Are you living holy?" And that's how a priest works. A priest will not bless you until they're satisfied that your character is in a good place, because a priest understands the power of blessing. Say this regularly to her, guys. Guys, watch who you bless, because what you bless stays blessed. Because the power that's on your life, recognize that you, this is more than humanity, this is kingdom authority. And what you bless stays blessed. So when you bless poor character, that will stay blessed, and you'll accelerate something in someone that they don't have the character to support the favor. Be really careful with what you bless. And priests know that. They understand the power of blessing because they live in the power of blessings. Part of their worldview.

And so if a friend speaks peace, if an enemy speaks problems, and a friend speaks peace, then the priest speaks presence into her life. That's their task. They again, help us engage with the presence of God, but again, only as they're satisfied that we're living in covenant with. Uh, and notice again, he's just piercing. I know I'm emphasizing this, but he is piercing the soul of David here. He's just straight after all, all the way through. And this is what they do. They ask intimate questions about your life. Who comes to your marriage? And they're asking, you know, "Is, how is the intimacy in your love life? How's your decision making? What's going on in your finances?" They, they don't see that as your domain. They understand that you're connecting to the whole community. They don't buy, um, the, the thing going on in culture that your business is your business. They're after the voice of a priest. And so different to a friend, because a friend is typically often the echo chamber of our heart. They will tell us what we want to hear. But priests don't take that.

So I just want to pause there for a little moment, take a couple of questions on that. We'll dive into the second half of this. A lot to cover today, just in this one. But, um, as we do, I'll speak into one more section. But as I'm speaking into it, guys, just any questions that you have there, then feel free to go ahead and and begin to raise them on the live chat there. We all need that, don't we? We all need somebody in our life who's asking us the hard questions, who's helping us when we are engaged in some missions that we know are just not helpful. We need, uh, we need people who are not afraid to bring confrontation, who hold us accountable in our decision making, we're asking us in ways that actually not the provocation of an enemy in this, but the, the disruption of the voice of confrontation that just stops us dead on track in the missions that they're on. The kind of voice that forces us to take an inventory of our inner world.

So, um, let me just check and see then what we, we have here. Yeah, John, great to have you again, my friend. John, I stole this, uh, phrase from a book by John Ortberg on it. I think it's one of the, it's probably one of his least known books, but for me, it's one of his best books on it. He basically contends that every life has a shadow mission, and, and that often we pursue those, and they lead to great weariness and brokenness in our life. And they don't have to necessarily be negative things. Actually, they can look really positive in that. And I think I might have, for me, I think I might have included that in the bibliography, John, there. But if I haven't, then reach out to his mate, and I'll get you, I'll get you a copy of that. But I won't get you a copy of it, but I'll get you the details of it. You're a long way away in Exeter. But, uh, can you explain what you mean, Stuart? Good to have you, my friend. Can you explain what you mean about pleasure in more detail? Yeah, the, that's just that text, Stuart, that talks about God's will being good, pleasing, and perfect. So pleasure are those things that enliven us and awaken us to the joy of life. That the Bible says that at God's right hand, there are pleasures forevermore. There is this incredible satisfaction. This is the C.S. Lewis quote again of, you know, "We have settled for too little joy. We have sinned and grown weary, and our Father is more joyous than us." And a friend awakens us to the pleasures of the Father, and they bring that deeply satisfying, the kind of pleasure that we ache for, the pleasure that is beyond. Said, good person on that. And you were looking at researching at Moisture, and you probably come across, uh, some of his work. But some of John Piper on that is really good in helping us recognize that God is most, uh, glorified in us when we are most satisfied, most pleasure in Him. Paul, good to have you on, my friend. Paul, can you explain a bit more about how priests question our connections? Yeah, they'll just ask about your relationships in your life. I have a friend right now, Paul, who's on Instagram, and everything in me wants to invade their life as a priest. Oh my goodness, they, everything they keep posting, I'm like, "I'm pretty sure they're having sex with that individual." And, and the priest in me is like, "I want to get after that." I don't want to, I don't want to hold back from that. That's what priests do. If they see someone up to no good in their neighborhood, they're going to question it. It's not an immorality police kind of way, but in, "I love that person. I will not let them wander in their characters." So they'll ask all kinds of questions. "How you seem to be offended by, you know, like, they see your face downcast, and they're like, 'Are you down today because you're offended by this person?'" Because a friend will gently skirt around it. And Paul, they'll, me, a friend might do for weeks. A friend might spend weeks building up to the question. The priests will maybe spend three minutes before they go straight. They're just going to go straight after that question. But they'll ask questions on our connections. And, yeah, your, uh, in-laws are coming. You don't like them, do you? I mean, they'll just go after it. They'll go after every area of our questions. And that, which again, makes them pretty non-relaxing people to be around. It's not all they do. I don't want to paint it that way, but it is the gift of the voice of the priest. It's going to be clear. Not that nobody else will do that in our life, like the friend won't do it, the king won't do it, the warrior won't. It's the only voice that will do it. That's why we diminish ourselves when we don't permit that in our life.

Mention negative and positive side. I think Heidi, so good to see my friend on. Yeah, I think this was in relation to shadow mission a little bit earlier. There's, there's a negative side to shadow missions. There's, there's and areas that are just, they're very clear. We're working in darkness, we're working in secret and hiddenness. We're cultivating maybe in woodley or cultivating pornography or anger or whatever it is. Those are the kind of negative. But some shadow missions are positive in that they're wrapped around the cause, but they're just not what we're called to do. It's like a false mission. We get status from it, but they can look really pleasing, and they can actually look like they're changing culture, and might even be changing culture. They're just not the mission that we're called to do. So some are positive, some are negative. Thanks, James. Any tips? Wow, that is a brilliant question, Hannah. Any tips for growing into a skilled priest and ask good questions? Figure out the questions. Go deep in your own soul. How to deal with the areas of brokenness. Examine it. Do autopsies on your life, like look at the areas where things went wrong. Don't settle for the first answer. And all of that's going to help in that. And then as you are phrasing it with people, I've learned over the years working with people that actually they don't love it when I jump in three minutes into the conversation with the questions. This is particularly difficult if you're, uh, if your voice is priest, prophet, because you can see the, um, you can see some of the stuff clinging to their soul before they walk through the door, almost. And everything in you is biting your tongue in that. And I would encourage you, just be, uh, patient in that, Hannah. And, yeah, happy, happy work with you on that. Hope it's going well. Norwich, there's Cynthia. Great to have you in the call. Current day is the most, is this voice most often displayed as a therapist? Yes, uh, largely, uh, because it's safe. We pay them. There's certain things that they can say. We need somebody who'll peel back the barriers or the strongholds in our life, and we, we know that they won't go too far with us without our permission, whereas the priest will. When we need to have a conversation around this, is it beneficial to go to a therapist and schedule such, um, yeah, it really can be, Cynthia. That can be a helpful thing to do. Um, I think one of the reasons that we're so inclined, I love, uh, people who spend their life really wrestling with issues of the interior and helping us find healing and wholeness and our soul. Therapists, counselors, all those kind of people, spiritual directors is the kind of in vogue, uh, area of this. But really, what we're crying out for is someone who will help us grow and who won't accept, uh, where we are. He'll just keep pushing us forward in that.

This is the voice then moving forward, guys, that it forces us to take an inventory of our inner world. They just, uh, cause again and again, as I've mentioned, they call us on our stuff. A friend causes when or die. When we're done, and a priest calls us on our stuff, or at least the voice of a priest will do that. So they're constantly wondering in the conversation, "What is it that you're hiding that's destroying you?" One of the ways that you discern the voice of a priest is this, at the question of your soul. And we're going to look at these in a few moments, but also the insight that they have for your life. If you find someone like, I, I don't see this with any degree of arrogance, but obviously you guys are on this call, you can see that I operate with a different level of insight in different areas of life. It's a good indicator that that person has a priestly bias. You see someone whose insight is a little different, it's a little unusual, it's not like what you're reading in other books or elsewhere. It's a pretty good indicator of a priest. They spend a lot of time reflecting on that. So when you are acquiring insight, that's a great conversation. These are people to look for. In those moments when you don't know what to do, you're like, "I'm slightly confused." The priest will pierce the confusion. They won't do it all the time, but they bring fresh clarity to your life. I know that for me, at the moment, COVID hit, I contacted Andrea, who's on this call. I contacted her almost immediately because I needed clarity. Like, I need the voice of the priest again. I need someone. Andrea does that beautifully and a lot more gently, but she's just stunning in bringing clarity and helping me even know what kind of questions to ask. I also wrote to another friend immediately because anytime there's confusion, I know the voices in, in the church that are just going to add to whatever conversation is happening there for me as a priest. Those are dissatisfying, not those people, but those voices. I already know. I've read the same books. I can recognize that stuff. What I need is insight. And so priests bring that into her life. They just release that level. So when you're looking for insight, when you're looking for intimacy, you search out the friend. When you're looking for insight, that's when you know I need to trigger a different conversation in this. Both are necessary. Neither is better or greater. They're just different voices that trigger the seasons. Their voice awakens us to her wounds. And again, it's the voice of healing. So all of that helps. Is the same, but also you'll discern them just by the sheer questions they ask. Sometimes a conversation with a priest is like an interrogation. I feel like I'm on an episode of 24 here, followed by, "It's just like, who wants to be a millionaire?" You've got so bad, you've asked me 15 questions in a half hour. This is this is intense with that. And one of, one of the questions that they'll ask is, "What is growing in your heart right now? Where is offense reeling over you? Where are you separating yourself from God? And where are you isolating yourself from others?" And they'll just go after that. And, uh, we need, we need priests. We need them to help us detox from unhealthy relationships. Need them help us, uh, remove ourselves from connections that kill destiny. A priest actually will speak in city, you know, that friendship in your life, that friendship is derailing your destiny. I know you love them, I know they love you, but if you continue that connection, you're going to miss God's calling for you. Now, they won't keep pushing that. If you ignore it, they'll be fine with that. They'll go after, they feel okay once they've said what it is they need to say, they're okay with that. Then it's up to you. It's your responsibility. For them, they just need to discharge their responsibility in that moment. And so they'll, they'll, uh, engage with that in that way. And we need it because without it, we don't move forward.

Let me just, uh, speed this up, guys, conscious of, uh, our time in this. So often this voice will introduce tension into the room. They're rarely, uh, a political voice. You know, they, they will rarely speak into the correct thing to do. They might speak to the right thing to do. They'll introduce tension in the room. And, uh, some of you will do this. Many of your pastors on the call, church leaders, some of you will do this. You know, there's a time where you want to, Jesus would do this again and again with people. He would just introduce tension into the conversation. And it's him just putting on the heart of the priest. And I remember one time when the disciples in the story, one time when the disciples come to him and they say, "Jesus, don't you know that the Pharisees were offended by this?" And Jesus turns to his disciples and he says, "Let them be offended. Everything that my Father has not planted will be uprooted." That is classic priest speak. That's like classic, "Yeah, just let it, let it hang there. That's okay. You don't have to solve them. You don't have to make them feel good." That's what the friend wants to do. Like their feelings are hurt. Priest is like, "Good, good. That's what we're after here." They're not about massaging the feelings. They're about helping people connect in covenant.

So all of that is to set our hearts on growth. These are the voice of healing in the season of restoration, and their heart is set on growth. They're people who will do anything to help us grow because again, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up. So today, the question is this, guys: Who is the priest in your life? Who is the priest in your life? Who is it that you go to who will call you on your stuff? Who will ask you the hard questions? And maybe you're, maybe you're the priest in your life. Maybe you have that kind of thing, and some of you with the voice of a priest, that that's your kind of natural voice, and you do this for yourself. You probably are your own harshest critique. You probably examine yourself way more than you should. You're probably way more introspective with yourself. You're constantly questioning. And you may not need another person. But for most people, who is the priest in your life? Who are you having the awkward conversation with? Who, when other people quieten the hunger, who stirs it in you? Priest will stir it in you. Who loves you enough to lead your soul, to speak to your marriage, to speak to the company you're keeping, to speak to the decisions you're making? Who, who does that in your life? Who respects you enough to go through the tunnel of truth with you and say, "We're, we're going to wrestle this to the ground together. We're just going to go after this together." Who is that friend who won't let you stay stuck? And I'd love for you just to take a moment to write it down. It's wherever you are, just to put a name. The, the person who speaks with the voice of a priest in my life is this one. We're going to go to this at a little moment in that. And if you don't have someone, just ask yourself, is that because I'm hiding? Or is that because I don't know anyone like that? Like, is that because I'm afraid and I'm hiding my heart? I do know people who would do this for me. I'm not talking at all, I should have clarified this upfront, not talking at all about harsh people or mean people or people who have an axe to grind. Like, you don't want to go to an enemy for priest. You don't want to go to someone who's against you as a priest. But think through, you know, is the reason that I don't have many people like that because I'm communicating that this is like David? Am I hiding my heart in this moment? Or maybe you're not yet ready for the season to change. And God won't force it on you. This is the seasonal change moment. The voice of the priest marks a change in the season of our life, marks a deeper surrender, a greater surrender. And because God is gracious, he will give us favor when we're not fully surrendered. Give you a good example of this. God appears to Moses in the, the burning bush. You know the story, and in it, then Moses, in that moment, he meets with the Lord, and he does everything he can to dissuade God from sending him. You know the story. He's like, "God, please don't send me. I barely speak." Like, he's, he's introspective. He's like, "Please don't send me." And God is like, "Moses, you're the man." And eventually, there's almost a note of frustration in the voice of God. He's like, "I'm going to get your brother Aaron, we're going to do this thing." You read the next chapter, you go to, I believe it's Exodus 4:25, and it's never honored fringe magnets, but it says this: "At a lodging place along the way, God met Moses and tried to kill him, or intended to kill him." It's like, "What? You just spent the last chapter inviting him into his destiny and his purpose. He agrees to. He didn't want to go on it. You've convinced him to go on it. And the very next chapter, God, you tried to kill him." And the reason he tries to kill him is there's no covenant in Moses' life. And his wife's very bizarre, very odd.

story in scripture. His wife throws a foreskin at his feet. He's like, "Surely you're a bridegroom of blood to me." And everything is satisfied in that moment because Moses is now in covenant. And the reason God does that is because the favor that's on his life will destroy him if his character doesn't come into covenant.

And that's what priests do. They recognize you have huge favor on your life, so an enemy will confine you and reduce you and will sound like the priest. Because they'll be reducing your territory. A priest will do the same thing, but they do it to bring us to a place of surrender so that our character can handle the favor that's coming on our lives. And so that voice, it just schedules that season of surrender for us.

So I want to take, uh, a few minutes today, guys, and we're going to break into breakout rooms. In this, now, I want to encourage you to stick on the call for this. We're only going to do it for 10 minutes because I realize this is pretty emotional stuff. It's highly relational stuff, and it's highly vulnerable. And you don't know one another. You're suddenly thrust in a room together. In 10 minutes, I'm going to pick up a little bit on the shadow side of this and some other stuff. Enamel of room for questions. But the, the, what I'd love for you to just dialogue together in the room is, is two or three of these.

One, uh, you know, talk a little about the value of the friend that you have, value for friendship, why friends matter to you. And then just ask one another, do you have a priest in your life? And how do they function? You know, what does that look like for you? And, and maybe even if you can, and I realize we haven't done all these yet, but maybe just articulating out loud, here's the season that I'm in right now. You don't have to do that. There's no obligation in that. It's actually for your own benefit in it. But here's the season that I'm in right now. I'm in a season of disruption, of transition, of restoration. Men, a season of exposure, of fresh surrender, or fresh honor, and a season of growth and healing, recovery. Whatever it is, you don't have to use the terms that I've put there. And before you're just defining what season you're in. So we're going to break. We're going to go into those rooms. Hopefully, technology will allow us to do that very thing. And we'll come together again at...

Hey there, guys. Hello. Hi there. Uh, I'll just, uh, I'll kick us off with some intros. So my name's Chael, and I'm from, uh, near the Chicago area in, uh, in the U.S. I'm Roger. I'm from, uh, Indiana, Fort Wayne, Indiana. So I grew up near Chicago area, so I'm familiar with your territory. And I'm Craig, and I am in Northern Ireland, just south of Belfast, but spent a year working on the cosmetic coast with Alan Catherine just before they moved to the States. Awesome. That's great.

So we're supposed to chat about the value of a friend first. It's interesting. I've had one of those mornings where I've had probably be a priest more than I want to be. I've had to have hard conversations between my team, um, and, but friendship came up as part of that. It was to do with the friendship between two people in my team that was probably getting unhealthy. Um, and just within that, recognizing particularly for one of them, their high need for friendship, but also recognizing that I don't particularly have that. Um, I'm not someone who, who needs a big circle of friends around me. Um, if I've got my wife and a couple of old buddies who have had around for a while, I'm pretty good. Sometimes that can lead to me isolating myself, but generally, I'm an introvert by nature, and that just don't have a high capacity for relationship. Thanks, Craig.

Yeah, I would say [Music] that this is all very, uh, all these things are kind of mixing together for me. So honestly, I feel like I've got a not to untangle more, more than anything. I don't, I don't have tons of clarity. Um, we, our church culture, we have a pretty highly relational church culture. So our core group of leaders in our team feel more like family, even more so than friends. You know, I feel like I've got, uh, brothers and sisters, you know, kind of that we're, we're doing this with, or, or I'm more than a spiritual parent kind of mode. Um, and, uh, so on the one hand, I feel like, man, I've got some really valuable friendships that are, I'm really thankful for and really great. But as I'm, this kind of gets into the second question, I, or maybe third, as I feel like I'm shifting in seasons now into different mode, I feel like those relationships feel a little more unstable. I think they're used to me playing the role of a friend, uh, and so now I feel like I'm shifting into maybe, maybe more of a warrior mode or have been. Um, and so now it just feels really un upended. So, well, I feel like in the past, I could have said, yeah, I've got these great friends. At the moment, I'm feeling pretty isolated from those, from those friendships. So, um, so yeah, so there's, I, I would say that there's a sense of a loneliness, uh, that I probably haven't felt in a while right now.

A little bit about what Alan said on Friday, where he told his church, "I can be your pastor, or I can be your friend." Yeah, there's that transition going on where you've been everybody's friend. Yeah, there's like, your, your role, your authority level is maybe shifting than that. Would that be? Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, uh, I'm a pretty relational, uh, person, so, uh, I'm easy to get along with. Uh, I, I don't, I don't mind playing that friend role in, in people's lives. Uh, so, but that's just not where I feel like God's leading me in this season. So I'm, you know, just in, in that shifting role. And because most of the people around me, uh, are used to me being in that friend role more than other things, it's really disorienting for people. Um, and so, uh, and disorienting for me, you know, uh, uh, so yeah, so I'm just kind of in the middle of all that right now.

I'm just subconsciously coming to Roger a second, but just to find this fascinating because, you know, I just, I was thinking today about, and I said, when you receive a prophet as a prophet, you get a prophet's reward. If you want a prophet's reward, you receive them as a prophet. And that stands off. If you want me to be a pastor, and a leader, and a priest to you, or whatever that is, you need to, you need to receive and perceive me as that. Oh, there's that. The only reward you get from me is a friendship reward. How do you then, I guess, when, when it is just, when it's been perceived as a friend, family, are those com, those difficult conversations harder to have? Because you're not really sacrificing, you're not only leaning in on a role, you're leaning in a relationship as well. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, that's a little bit of that stuck feeling now is, hey, you're used to, and people had perceived this change, you know, coming over the last six months, you know, like, why are you driving so hard? Why are you pushing so hard? Why aren't we having fun together, you know, like we used to do this and do these things, and now it just feels like you're focused on. So they're perceiving this, this change, and it's difficult to. So I'm trying to name it more and just kind of do what Alan was even talking about last week, is saying, hey, I'm going to take off the friend hat for a minute, and I'm going to put on this hat. And so I'm just, I think this is helping me have language to articulate something that was, I had a feeling inside, but couldn't quite name it. Uh, but it doesn't make those conversations any easier.

How long have you been there? I'm sorry. How long have you been in your current role? Um, it'll be ten years, uh, this year. Okay. Okay. That's helpful. On Roger, where are you? Well, I'll start with the season I'm in. It's, uh, I went through a season of disruption here and moving through the season of restoration and kind of in a season of release right now, just kind of discerning what's next. And so I'm really glad we're on the voice of the priest right now because I just feel like this is exactly what I need right now. Is just, I need to talk to the priest of my life. And, um, I've, you know, I've got a couple friends. I've got a lot. I'm very outgoing, very relational as well. Um, but to be honest, uh, the friends that we talk about here, the voice of the friend, uh, there's fewer of those. And you really realize, I mean, someone who's really willing to be in that space to hear you. And, um, and I got, just, it's really, it's interesting when you really start kind of going through these grids, like who's really available for these roles in your life. And, um, and, you know, I, I've got a couple, and they're valuable. And, but yet, I think it's really time as we're going through this material for me to just have that voice of the priest to kind of cut through some things and cut through the empathy and ask me the hard questions that I've been trying to ask myself, but sometimes it's just helpful to have someone else.

Do you have that somebody, Roger? Do you have a priest? I do. Yeah. Matter of fact, I'm, I reached out to them in an email just, yeah, while Alan was talking, was like, hey, can I, can I get a time with you on the phone and we need to chat a little bit? So, I'm sorry, can I, do you mind looking for what is that? Is that personal leader? Is it a counselor? Is it a therapist? Or what, what role do they play in your life? Yeah, it's, it's, um, she's, uh, been in our move. I work for Youth for Christ, and she's been a national leader in our movement. And, um, we've talked an awful lot about just spiritual formation, spiritual direction. And she's just one of those ones where she knew what I went through, but she asked some very piercing questions when it first all happened. And, um, I think I need to reinvite her into the conversation just to do that because she just is just one of those people that can ask those questions. And I, I've given her permission to do that, that's for sure. So just because of who she is. So, okay. What's that? You've been through a tough time. Yeah. It has been. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, as a following that's how I kind of ended up at the cosmetic coast, actually. Every year, okay, my recovery and restoration. Yeah. Okay. And actually, I wrote, all right, this isn't a plug at all, but I actually wrote a book on transition, the tension of transition. Beer start off our own journey as a family through burnout, depression, leaving a church, all of that to where I guess where we are a few years later. That's good. But, uh, it's just, yeah, it can be tough. Yeah. Yeah. On our way back. Yep. Pretty much there.

Guys, hope that was, um, I hope that was somewhat helpful. Just hearing and even seeing and meeting one another is always a good thing. And looks like we are, we're still waiting on one or two of us. I wanna, in a moment, just speak into what are some of the questions that highlight the change in seasons? As we go through each of these, you're going to see that there are certain questions that either you're asking personally or discipleship questions that you're asking that are just going to indicate, okay, there's a shift in the season here and help us recognize that and move with that. And it just makes it a little bit clearer for us. So, um, you have most of them, I think you have all of them, actually, in your notes. But one of the, one of the recognitions and discerning when that voice is needed in our life is just simply asking the question, you know, am I sensing God speak about greater purity in my life? Uh, usually we can't find the areas in our life that we need to address in that. And it's very helpful to go to somebody in, in that. Or am I in a season of recovery? You know, if I just come out of something that has been incredibly bruising and painful for me, I just come out of something like David that has outwinded me with rejection or whatever, that need to just take a little while focusing on my inner health before I start the next thing that I need some time to focus on that. And perhaps what led to the breakdown of my relationship, my business, or my health. That's often, that can be an external factor. But is that anything internally that led to that? That's a great, if you're asking those kind of questions, if you're wondering, gosh, what contributed to that? If you're going a little bit deeper in that, what in my character is destroying my future? Why is it I seem to get stuck at the same thing again and again and again? What is there in that? Another great question. Am I, am I overcoming hurt? Is there an area where I'm healing up right now and I'm just overcoming hurt? I'm processing pain. I'm in relational pain, or, you know, I feel wounded or grieved or disappointed or betrayed. Any of those, great time to engage in conversations that help us with inner health and wholeness. Do I need to process that pain again? Is reflection and evaluation required? Is this just a season where I need to do that? And obviously, in all seasons of life, these things are happening. Talking here about a more focused season, a greater awareness, a greater attentiveness to that in, in that way. Do I have the internal resources to move forward? You know, the next season that we're going to talk about in this season foreshadows it, and we'll see in a moment. Next season, we're going to talk about is the season of a king. Well, season of a king is moving into much more a royal identity. It's embracing the impact and the influence of our life in a different way than we have previously. And if that begins to grow externally, and the internal resources aren't in place, that actually wounds as deeply, and sometimes there's no recovery in that. And so one of the questions we ask in this season is, do I have the resources that I need to move forward? And actually, the sign that you're exiting this season is that those resources begin to come into play. And so David receives the sword and the bread as he exits this conversation. And that's the sign that you're exiting this season is, okay, I'm now receiving the resources that I need to move forward in my life. I now have them. I've identified them. I know what they mean to me, and I know what they bring to me. And he receives the, the bread of presence, and then the sword, which is in his life, the memory of previous victory. When you've come through a season where you've, you've been with the priest, you actually start to, it can shake your confidence. That's what confrontation with an enemy does. The friend is great in bringing reassurance, but the priest will shake your confidence a whole other way. They almost deconstruct to reconstruct. They pull things apart to rebuild. In that, I've often wondered, just my own curiosity, and probably shouldn't even introduce it, but if the millennial generation fit in the category of the priest. I've often wondered if that's how they see life. That's everything for their generation is authenticity and transparency and integrity and highly questioning and deconstructing and all that. That's a whole other thing. But it, the, what the priests will do is they'll give us that, that foreshadowing of what's coming. And they still the memory of previous victory. And even in those days where our character is being reformed, you'll have, like we explained last time, like the seasons, you'll have a warm summer's day in the middle of spring, hopefully you will, but you'll also have winter days in that. And so no season is just that. There's always the, the shadow of the previous season and the foreshadowing of the next season. And even when you're in that place of surrender, the Father will continue to speak to you, and occasionally speak to you about the impact, about the destiny of your life, and will stir that by way of reminding your previous victories that might be, um, in tasks, but that might also be in relationship. Again, thinking of someone coming out of a relational breakup or as something that has been incredibly painful where they've realized, man, I contributed to that, and may not feel the confidence right now to go into the next set of relationships in the workplace or in a personal relationship. They'll begin to experience days where their confidence has a resurgence. It's like, I've got this. Or think of it, um, and again, I'm speaking outside my lanes, not my experience, just observational in this. Think about a, a lady who takes time out of work to have a baby and is absolutely wanting to do both, wants to raise her kids, but also wants to develop her career. And that first reintroduction to work again, there's something where the confidence is just that little more fragile than it was. And so you're recognizing in that season of surrender where they've laid down their career so they can embrace this new thing being born, this new baby being born in their life, and they're asking all sorts of questions on competency and ability. Kid is up during that, and all it's brought them into a whole new territory of life. But as they begin to re-emerge out of that, handling that, they've got questions on their confidence moving into the next season. Can I do both of these? Can I do them well? Am I going to be a good mom? Am I good at my job? Can I handle this? Is this going to work for me? And they're asking that question. And actually, what God will often do in that, and what the, uh, will begin to happen is the foreshadowing of the next season will begin to calm voices that speak reassurance into their competence to build confidence. And slowly, they come out of the season with the priest and into the season of the king. I hope that analogy is kind of helpful in that. The priest releases the power of the testimony over our lives. That's one of the things they do. They remind us of the memory of God's victory in our life. And so as David moves on from this conversation, he's got a sword. He's reminding God has moved powerfully in my life in the past. He will again. He's anointed. He knows that that's over his life. He's got the bread of sustenance that will remind him it's the bread of the presence. God's presence is with him. He's got that sense of his character. He's been pierced. He's good when it relates to covenant. And he is ready for the next season in his life, which is the season of the king. At this point in this journey, David has explored the depths of his soul, but he has not yet seen the fullness of his story. All awaits him now. That's why, as we conclude, then we'll do a couple of questions on this, guys. That's why the shadow side of the priest is they will keep you in holy land. Priests are obsessed with holiness. It's all they care about. It is their mantra. And you say, shouldn't every voice be that their mantra? That's probably a good sign that you're a priest, if you're like that. Should be, or that you're in the pre-season right now, that you're surrounded by those voices. But they'll keep you there, and they won't ask questions then about your impact. All they're concerned about is your relationship with the spiritual, your relationship with God. And when we spend too long there, actually, a story gets diminished, and it gets impoverished. It's the shadow side of the priest. They actually create us, as any one of these, they create us in their own image. They make us into many priests. They keep us in that, and they bind them us to them in the conversation. And they're doing all of that with noble desires, but actually, what it does is it restricts your destiny. And so they get really uncomfortable when you begin to experience impact, when you actually realize material things matter in life. Priests are like, no, no, they don't. They don't. And they, they get a little uncomfortable as you embrace a little more of your fullness of your story. They are great for cutting things off. They love, "Seek first the kingdom of God," but they don't really like all these things being added to you. So they live in deserts and monasteries and all of that place. They struggle with the second half of Jesus' statement on it. For the priest, the pursuit is everything, but the pleasure is often lacking. And so the shadow side of that is they, they cut too deep. They cut off desires. They cut off holy ambition. They cut off things that actually do matter in our life. They have crucial conversations that aren't always required. They just go too far in their zeal. They push too far. It's the shadow side of a priest. The healthy priest won't do that. But when operating in the shadow side, they've cut off everything, and they'll become judgmental. They'll become harsh. They'll become mean. They'll have, uh, judgments on everything. And for those of you who are in pastoral ministry, isn't that a huge challenge in that? Because part of my task day in and day out, I'm asked to scrutinize people based on their leadership capacity. I have to make judgments all day long on whether this person is suitable to lead. And that's what you would do. I, I would certainly do it with a babysitter. I'm definitely going to do it with a leader in the church, right? I'm like, if I'm going to, I'm going to ask questions about whether you can babysit my kids. I'm definitely going to have lots and lots of questions about whether you can babysit his kids, whether you can lead his people. So, but judging someone's leadership potential capacity, scrutinizing that, is very different from bringing judgment to their character. Even though the questions you're asking relate to character. And so all that can get a little intertwined. But it's so important to be aware that actually, when that's unhealthy in the priest, they become really judgmental. They write people off rather than writing them in. Their sword cuts their friends as well as their enemies. They just get a little bit too harsh in that.

So we've left a little bit of time there, guys, for questions. Uh, some follow-up questions on that second half of the session. Appreciate your engagement, your conversations, and, and your work in the breakout rooms today. And if you have those questions, go ahead, there, pop them. You know by now what to do. Pop them in. Janet, what a joy to have you on the call. So glad that you're with us, uh, in this season. Which voice do you think is the most valuable for cities to hear from us as leaders? Um, John, I would, I would think it's probably a combination of the friend and the priest in, in this particular season. I think people need us to be reassuring and to come alongside them and to sit with them in their pain. They're going through deeply traumatic stuff at the moment, and I think they need that. But also, I think people are asking the question, why is this happening? I think beyond the surface, and I think they're looking for insight, and I think they're looking for some help for a pathway through it. And so, uh, for our cities, for civic leaders in that, um, I think sitting with them goes a long, a long way in that. For congregations, it's both. It's a connection, it's engagement, it's handling their hearts, letting them know that we feel their pain, we understand the pressure in that. But it's also saying, hey, we believe, we believe, and it's only for us. Um, you guys maybe do it entirely different. We did like this four-week series on Jonah. It was enormously helpful, stunning feedback from our people on it. But really, we were saying, hey, this turn of events, we believe this is from the Lord. We don't believe he sent it, but we believe he's in it. And we believe he has purpose in it. And he is refining, and he is removing, and he is reducing. We had essentially a priest conversation with our guys. And I think some believers have a sense, surely God is at work in this. And if we're only a friend, I think we, we missed something in that. So that would be mild. We know, I'm sure we could ask everyone on the call, wish we could actually do that to the limitations of them. And others would say, no, I'm not sure that is the case. And maybe it's something for me, it would be a friend and a priest. I don't think right now we need a prophet. I don't think we need people baptizing in a fresh imagination. It's too soon. We don't need the, "Here's what's coming next." It's too soon. We do need, "Here's what's going on. Here's what's happening now." And we do need that, "Here's where we're going at the moment as we journey through this." And here's a sense of what God's doing. So I hope that's helpful, uh, Janet, in that. And, um, guys, any other questions? Go ahead and ask them. Otherwise, we, we will finish a little bit earlier today. Uh, Jennifer, good to have you on the call. Most people feel the voice of the priest is harsh, at least from my experience. How do you know when your priestly voice is coming from a shadow side or a place of health? My goodness, Jennifer, you could tie yourself in knots on this one for sure. That's the truth. Because the priest always comes away from the conversation thinking, "I was too harsh with them." Healthy priests do. But actually, they're not at all too harsh. They, they're having a conversation. Here's the thing. Remember we said about humility? And they're afraid. The priest is actually afraid to host the conversation. It's not their favorite thing to do. They do it because they would rather bring obedience to God than anything else in their life. And so out of that courage, they summon their emotional strength and they go into it. And then because they're priests, they inspect the life out of themselves on the back end of it, like, "How did that go?" So you're going to feel your priest. You're going to feel pretty much every one of your interactions, and the enemy is going to leverage that against you all the time. "You're too harsh with people. You're too strong with them." And the truth is, they're always going to feel it as harsh, even if they love you, because it's a sword, right? And there's no way to experience that and that knot wouldn't. There's no way to experience that and that knot cut. And there's a positive people in their life who will speak to them like that way. It's not uncommon for people to say, "No one's ever spoken to me like this before." My wife, Catherine, and I used to joke for years, I couldn't have a conversation. And in the early years of planting a church in Ireland, I, I don't remember having very many conversations with people where they weren't crying at some point in the conversation. It's like, "Why is everyone crying in a conversation with me? What's with that? What's going on there?" And, and there's, there's an incisiveness to the approach of the priest. There's an insight to it. It just cuts, and it's supposed to. The word of God is living and active, sharper than any double-edged sword. It penetrates, and people are going to feel it going in if they're going to be able to carry it in the way forward. And so, um, I don't know the perspective that you're asking that on there, Jennifer, but just in case you are a priest, and, uh, I've been tied in knots with that one myself. And how do you know when it's coming from the shadow side? But there's a, there's a darkness to it. It's not just that it comes across as harsh. It really is being mean. There's a sense of, "I don't like this person. I'm really annoyed that I'm really annoyed at the way they're handling their relationship." And it goes, uh, beyond that. Cynthia, when, when it comes to speaking into cities and culture, do you see the priest's voice, um, and prophet voice similar? They do have similarities. The, the prophetic voice is going to be the voice of reimagination. It's going to baptize us in fresh thinking. It's going to baptize us in fresh solutions. The priestly voice is much more concerned with formation in that. And so, um, the prophetic voice is going to have a supernatural dimension to it, often. Cynthia, and whereas the, the priest is going to deal with the soul. They're going to go after the soul. They're going to work on that. Um, so they are, this, there's overlap, as there is in lots of these. And of course, no one person has any single thing on it. And these two are probably at times really close to one another, um, in, in the way the approach, in their perspective. You know, but they're, they're also, they've got some pretty distinctive, uh, approaches as well. So similar, but distinctive also within that. Len, great to have you in the call. Does a priest have to wait to be asked to speak into something? Um, it's, I, I think what it does, Lin, is it highlights that the person is ready for the change in season. You know, it kind of makes that aware. Okay, when the person invites you into is them saying, "I'm, I'm longing for growth now. I'm longing for this now." And so that's the advantage of that, that they're going to be more responsive. And you have to wait. It just depends. You know, if you see someone drilling a hole in the boat of their soul, you don't sit by and watch it happen. So sometimes there's that intervention. The classic TV moment, this is not a conversation, this is an intervention, right? It's just like, "Hey, we're going in here. You don't want to hear this. We're going to hear it." I had a conversation with my daughter in the car about a year and a half ago now, where, where I was a little concerned as a parent. Now, my daughter is like, her friendship circle is is pretty amazing in this, but I was a little concerned that the friends that she was connecting with just weren't as passionate about Jesus as I would like them to be. That's the priest in me. Look, I'm observing the passion for Jesus. And I figured it was time for me to dial in on her friendships. And she was at that age, I think she was about 14 and a half, 15. She was at that age where her friends that she was dialing in with, if she dialed in further, they would be lifelong friends for her. And I didn't want her to have lifelong friends that weren't passionate about Jesus. I wanted them to be passionate about them. And she wasn't bringing the invitation. She wasn't like, "Dad, would you speak into my friendships?" Strange that, isn't a teenager not wanting us to speak into their friendships? You know, but I, I would just keep prodding and provoking and asking questions around it, probing it, and just saying, "Hey, tell me about your friends. Do they love Jesus the way you love Jesus? Well, do they have a value for?" I wouldn't do it one after another, but pretty much every time she got in the car for a month and a half, I would stagger those questions for, "Hey, tell me about that person. They sound great. They sound like so much fun. How are they doing? Do they love Jesus?" We just go after it. So sometimes you have that invitation where the person recognizes the sublime spot, "I want to grow on this. I want to deepen my character forward in that." Often though, you do have to intervene. Um, what we don't want to do in it is go up to people and say, "I need the voice of a priest in my life. Will you be that voice?" Like, that's just not, that's the same as, um, yeah, it's just not a healthy, healthy approach. You know, um, but brilliant question, Len. Love that. Willie, great to have you, my friend. When you find yourself in the season of being the priest, which voices are most valuable in your own life? Gosh, Willie, it's becoming like inception. It's like riddles within riddles. I love that question, my friend. Um, when you find yourself to see them being a priest, which voices are most valuable in your own life? Do you know what I found in this? Will you actually find the voice of a king valuable to me? Because I'm likely to, and priests are much more comfortable, usually, actually, I'm being very generic here, and I want to be careful in this, um, because I'm learning too in the process, but I speak personally in this. I, I am much more comfortable on the ascetic end of the spiritual disciplines. Fasting for me is not a particularly arduous task. Feasting on the other hand is tricky for me. I don't love peace. I don't love celebrations. I don't love parties. I don't draw Emma. I'm priestly in that sense. I like to be otherworldly, following this worldly. That's an unhealthy thing in me. So what I need, what really helps me is the voice of a king, like people who are just feasting on life, who are helped me do that. And, and they're so far engaged in it that they pull me into just a little. It's like they're living in that in their fullness. So they pull me into just a little. And I find them helpful. At the same time, they're also the people that I have most difficulty with. So that's the juxtaposition in that. But they're the people that I most need. And, uh, they embody spirituality for me. They help me come into my body. They help me enjoy my senses. They help me engage the world around me. They teach me that material things are okay. But it's okay to have a car. And general since, really broken, but you think about it, priests in the desert, living in monasteries, do they have, do they all have cars? Probably not, right? So things teach you it's actually okay to have that stuff. So that for me, Willie, would be a good person having that. And prophets are people who are going to resonate with their heart. Well, they're going to unlock things for them. And friends, of course, people who they can be themselves with. It's going to be a pretty intensive friendship, but someone who gets them and gets the way they see the world and actually enjoys their intensity. Um, I remember being in Holland one time at a gathering, as a conference we were doing, I was doing a Sunday service. At the end of it, the ministry team gathered around me before I was due to speak. Um, one of them spoke, probably one of the best words that I've ever received. And they said this, they didn't know me at all. I'd stepped in. They had no gauge for me at all. I'd just stepped into their church about 10 minutes before. They spoke this word to me. They said, "The Lord loves your intensity." Like, "He loves your intensity." I tell you, that was greater to me than any, like, you could, you could prophesy, like, "You're going to be amazing," or whatever. That word to me was God to me. And I knew I found somebody who saw as a priest. And that's kind of fun too. We like to have other priests around you who just love intensity, who are going after it with the same zeal.

Guys, we are done for the day. Just want to pray. Father, thank you for this amazing community of people. Thank you for the story that you're writing in their life. I pray that you would guard each one today. I pray that you guard them from introspection that is not of your spirit, from examination that is not of your spirit. I pray also that you would guide them and remind them that the unexamined life is not worth living. And I pray that you would help them to create rhythms of Sabbath and solitude and soul-searching that allow them to become all that you've called them to be. God, all that you've called them to be. Father, I pray not only would you operate as the guide in their life today, Holy Spirit, but that you would lead them into growth. And I pray for each one that you would surround them with voices that would immerse them in your courage, that would face the issues right now that are sabotaging. And I pray that you give them voices of priests. And I pray for those who are tentatively exploring being this voice, would you help them, Father? Would you give them the resources and the tools that they need in this season? I want to thank you again in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen.

Guys, I think I'm right in saying it's this time next week, is that right? Or are we? If that's right, just give me a thumbs up. I think that's right, but we might have one on Friday. I'm getting a little confused, but I think it's next week, isn't it? Yes. Brilliant. Guys, can't wait to see you then. God bless you.