Transcription
Thank you for joining us for this special risk management training opportunity for all of our Assemblies of God pastors and ministers. Our hearts are saddened by the events that recently took place in Sutherland Springs, Texas, and certainly our prayers and our thoughts continue to be with that local congregation. But for those of us who are involved in church ministry, we also wonder, “What can we do? What are some best practices and some preventative steps to address this situation if it ever comes to the place where we minister and steward?”
I’m privileged today to be joined by the Assemblies of God legal counsel, Dr. Richard Hammer, as well as our risk management counsel, Jerry Sparks. And together they’re going to share with you some best practices, some legal advice on how you, as a local minister, can best prepare yourself—proactively prepare yourself—for an event like this.
Dr. Hammer, I’m gonna start with you. I know you have recently addressed this subject, and some previous videos have gone deep into some of the legal ramifications and best practices for prevention. But could you once more address our pastors and our constituents at a high level on some of the legal liabilities of an event like this?
Of course. In terms of legal liability, I’m not aware of a church that’s been sued, much less found liable, in the dozens of shootings that have taken place on church property over the past several decades. For a church to be liable, it’s going to be on the basis of what is called negligence. And for a church to be negligent in responding to an active shooter or not preventing it, the basic concept is foreseeability. The risk of an armed assailant on your premises must be reasonably foreseeable for the church to have a duty to do something about that risk. And what does that mean? It means there have been similar incidents of armed violence on or very near your premises in recent history of which you were aware. And that’s the key issue right there. And so the vast majority of churches can’t say that. You haven’t had an armed assailant near your church, in your church, in recent history of which you were aware. And so it’s not a legal risk; it’s not a legal duty that arises for churches just in general to do something about this issue.
I’d like to put it this way: although there may not be a legal duty to act, there is a theological and an ethical duty to act. Because we know something about people, about others, that the world doesn’t know—that they’re made in the image of God and they’re deserving of our highest and best efforts to preserve and to protect their lives and their safety. And so, whether or not there’s a legal duty, there’s certainly a theological duty and an ethical duty for us to do something.
So, Rich, what I’m hearing you say is a church doesn’t have to go out right now and engage in some securities company to protect themselves for this unforeseen, ill act; that they’re not liable. But you did talk about this moral—and you know people are our greatest resource in a church—so maybe, Jerry, I’ll pitch to you: what are some best practices that a church can do to minimize the risk of this kind of unforeseen accident happening on their campus?
Well, probably the first thing I would say is, actually, if you hire uniformed police officers or you have people that are actually working for the Sheriff’s Department that are off-duty, if you actually use those for doing security, that is your best practice for the church. Having people with concealed carry—and just let’s back up there if I may. I want to not run over that too quickly here. The best practice, okay, in terms of mitigating this risk—and by the way, we can’t eliminate the risk. You know, in all the armed shooting situations in churches over the last half-century, I don’t think any one of them could have been prevented. An armed assailant, especially someone who is intent on committing—so there’s nothing you can do to prevent it. The issue is one of control once an incident erupts and deterrence. And I think what Jerry said is exactly right: the best practice is uniformed police officers on your premises with their squad car out front, highly visible. That’s the deterrent. And you know what is it about uniformed police officers? They’re highly trained in the use of firearms and in crisis management. They have continuing training, and most importantly, perhaps, they are considered to be on duty when they’re responding to criminal activity, which eliminates the risk to the church for liability for excessive or inappropriate or negligent response on the part of the police officer.
Can, Jerry, and your experience, is that a private security company—or can they go to their local police and sheriff’s offices and inquire that help our pastors?
So, actually, it is—actually, in my opinion, is they can go to their local police or Sheriff’s Department and actually get them. They will normally wear their uniforms; you hire them and you pay—pay them. However, they’re still in their uniforms. What most people don’t realize is, once they pull a gun, they’re actually operating as a police officer and not as a security agent. So my nephew is actually a sheriff here in Missouri, and he actually is supposed to carry his gun 24/7. Once he pulls that gun, he is operating as a law officer and not as a security agent for the church. So, to Rich’s point, that is the best of practices. If a church doesn’t have that ability to do that, walk down some other scenarios that might be proactive to minimize the risk.
Let me just interject something here if I can interrupt you, and that is the biggest response I get to this best practice: “It’s cost too much.” Well, you know, let’s take a look at that. These people aren’t on your premises 24/7; they’re there for a couple hours on Sunday morning. And so don’t assume that the cost is going to be astronomical or unaffordable—that that is even for the smallest church. I think you can afford one or two hours of police protection.
So one of the things that I would suggest, even if you do not hire police officers, what you need to do is get your local law enforcement contacted and actually ask them for help in developing your security practice and your policy, so they know exactly what your policy is going in. At a large church here in southwest Missouri, they have—they actually have people that have concealed carry, and I can go through what you need to do when people have concealed carry and you’re allowing that. But I said, “Well, we need to get the Sheriff’s Department involved,” and the Sheriff’s Department basically said, “If I see people with guns, we’re shooting and asking questions second.” So you want to make sure that you have law enforcement involved in your training and have some parameters set up where they’re not shooting your security. And that’s why I think it’s important for them to have distinctive clothing, yes, so the police officers know who they’re looking for. And so when someone is walking around with a gun that’s a part of your security staff, they’re not going to shoot him.
Yeah. So what—one of the things that we did with this exact situation is, before a person pulls a gun—a security officer pulls a gun—they have some distinctive clothing that the Sheriff’s Department knows about, and they have to put that on before they pull their gun. The other thing, too, is just simple things: if somebody is an officer’s—a security person for the church, they need to go through training just like an officer of the law does—so same training—the same training. So if they—if—if the local sheriff’s department says you have to have 20 hours of education and you have to have three hours of shooting a year, our people are gonna go through that also. So there’s—there’s a lot of things that happen in order to make the church a safer place.
What else would you recommend? I know you’ve fielded several calls since this horrific event has taken place. Can you just share at a high level some—some steps that some pastors can go through to better assure their people that their house of worship is—we’re looking out for their interest while they’re on our campus?
Yeah, it—you know, when it comes to risk management, first of all, people need to realize—does their insurance company—would it even cover them having armed security? So a lot of times people say, “Oh my goodness, this has happened; we need to do something about it,” and they want to rush into it, and they actually may be causing more liability by having armed people in the church than not. Because if you do not have a policy in place, the church is not going to be held liable, like Dr. Hammer was saying. It would be very hard for the church to be liable for a shooting that’s happening unless there’s force—you know, was a foreseeable. There are policies that actually have written into the policy—insurance for such events. A lot of times you have to notify the insurance company because there could be an exclusion. A lot of policy—a lot of insurance companies actually exclude that kind of coverage where—or they’ll have to add that back—so add a—add in a security guard endorsement, basically. So when you have armed security guards, then the insurance company is going to know—want to know, “Are you taking proper training?” One of the things if that I—that we do with security guards, if we allow people to have their concealed carry, if they—anybody sees their weapon, they lose their privilege to ever carry. So we take that—you know, this is the only—the only time you’re gonna actually ever show anybody that gun is when something happens, and you’re—again, you’re gonna put the distinctive clothing on before that happens, so they don’t end up being shot because of what happens.
Look, Jerry, if I could interject a comment here, and that is we get some feedback from some churches that are just insistent, “You know, we’ve had people that are highly qualified and using concealed weapons,” and that may be true. But what we have found is there’s a vast disparity between churches, but even among concealed weapons permit holders. I’ve got one, and I’m the last person you’d want, you know, tracking down an armed assailant. I’d be running the other direction. So, all right, who knows who I’d hit if I started shooting? And that’s the way it is. Some are highly confident; they may be ex-military, ex-law enforcement, or just avid hunters or something, and hey, that’s wonderful. But on the other end of this extreme, you have people like me that are incompetent and using a firearm. I was able to hit a door from 3 feet, you know. And so you don’t want that person. So you—you can’t rely entirely on concealed permit holders. You’ve got to have uniformed law enforcement that are going to supervise the—the conceal. You can use them. I like to use the term auxiliaries. There are zillions—they’re working with—under the direction of law enforcement, and I think that’s the best arrangement, but not on their own. Because when it’s crisis, that deals with a whole set of emotions that come into play that can cloud judgment. So again, we’re talking best practices. Let’s find persons who are trained in that kind of crisis response. And if you decide not to use uniformed law enforcement, like what we’re recommending that is the best practice, you know, you mentioned private security firms, and the problem with that is, you know, you’re gonna end up in about the same with a private security firm. And furthermore, there’s a wide variety of competency among those people. Some have to be licensed; some can be licensed but aren’t. And so you need to check that out. You need to check out the cost, and they do not become on duty when they’re responding to criminal activity. So the risk of the church is higher actually using those people.
If a church has a law enforcement person as a part of their church, can they be a part of a security team and can they do both? Can you explain what your experiences have been with them?
Yeah, actually, that is normally the best person to put in charge of your security because they already are a licensed, uniformed—normally police officer. So they already know the training that needs to happen. So what we’ll put on our website is—I’m—if you’re going—if you insist on having a security team and you want to have concealed carry, what I’ll do is I can put some bullet points together that can—that need to be met if you’re going to do this. And I have—I have churches—I will tell you that call me all the time and they say, “Well, you know, Jerry, if I ask—if I have a policy for concealed carry people, you know, 90% of my people raise their hands that they’re already concealed carrying,” and I said, “Then you probably don’t need to have a policy in your church because you’re gonna have everybody pulling their gun if something happens.” But for churches that want to have a good understanding and set up a program where you know who is carrying a gun, who is not carrying a gun, and make them part of your security team, there are certain things that you need to put in place to protect everybody. So those are the things that I’ll actually—I’ll lay out one by one on—on how to do that, so you can have a security team.
So at the end of this presentation, we will put email addresses and websites where you can access both best practices for a security team, the construction of a security team, and any legal concerns that you might have. But let me pitch it back to the two of you: what would you—would you communicate to our pastors right now who—they do want to do their very best in protecting their assets—called children and people—but perhaps nothing has been put into place? What can you share with them—how to go forward from here?
I would say number one: take your time; don’t rush into anything. So the big thing is know what you’re trying to do and how to do it. Seek legal—seek legal advice, seek management advice. If you’re going to set up something, the big thing is documenting everything that you’re doing. So if you’re going to have a security team and you have specific training documented—who came, the date, when it happened—if you take the privilege away from somebody carrying a gun, you also document that. So what you’re doing is you’re never going to be able to stop this from happening, but you can minimize the liability once something does happen. And what we want to do is actually give you the protections that will help you in the future if something does happen; it gives you a defense, and it shows that the church is doing their due diligence.
Yeah, and I think having that Crisis Response plan that we’ve talked about is critical. Having that reviewed by law enforcement professionals—and what are you going to do if there is an armed assailant? And of course, having one or two police officers that are on duty as your security guard is going to help tremendously. But again, that needs to be coordinated with your security response team, and rehearse and rehearse this multiple times per year, so everybody knows what their responsibilities are and what our steps are gonna take if something like this should happen.
I might also mention the issue of technology. You know, a lot of public schools have gone to technological responses to this issue of armed assailants on their premises. Some churches are considering it, but in my experience, there’s really no technological device that—that’s going to be workable. The Department of Justice says for them to work, they must be affordable; there must be acceptable—and is it acceptable to have a metal detector or you have people lined up outside waiting to get in, and Grandma’s got a big purse, it sets the thing off, and you have to have secondary screening by competent, trained adults, and it gets to be time-consuming and very expensive. So technology is probably not—it can work as a supplement, but usually that’s not a standalone response. But that crisis response plan and rehearsing that plan, I think, are critical components. The other thing is have a—have a vetting process where you don’t allow just everybody to carry a gun if you’re going to open it up to concealed carry. So have an important vetting process. So haven’t—you know, I have some churches that actually, if you want to carry a gun on premises, you’ve got to go through an application and process, and it has to be approved by the church. But have a vetting process so you don’t let Rich here carry a gun because he can hit a target at 5 yards and hit it 9 times out of 10, because most likely you’re gonna be shooting at somebody a little bit further than 5 yards away. So you—you want to have a vetting process to know that these people can actually do what you want to do. The other thing is to put—this will help protect them because if something does happen, you want to actually protect them from a liability standpoint. That’s the reason why you check with your insurance company that the coverage would be afforded. The other thing is is that these people actually—we don’t want another Sheriff’s Department or somebody else coming in and shooting the wrong people.
Sure.
So, you know, if I could add one—one final comment, and this may be a way to sum up our presentation today, but back in 1999, there was another shooting in a Texas church that left seven people dead and seven people wounded. I remember Bill Clinton spoke to the nation following that event; he was president at that time, and he said these words among others: “There is nothing we can do to assure that this will never happen, but there is a lot more we can do to assure that it will happen less frequently.” And that’s what we’re talking about your day. We can’t prevent these horrible tragedies from happening, but we can take steps to deter them from happening and to respond once they do. And that’s what this video blog is all about today—is to take some steps to assure our church and our people that we are thinking through their safety. At the bottom of the screen right now, you see both the email addresses to Dr. Hammer and Jerry Sparks, our legal counsel and our risk management specialists. If you have any questions regarding your policies or your practices or perhaps a desire to put a crisis response plan together, please contact either one of them. Also, on AG Financials website, if you go to their video archive, both of these gentlemen have talked about these subjects in depth in previous recordings, and I encourage you to take a look at that and allow your leadership to sort of audit the teachings that have been done on these subjects and do our best to not only shepherd carefully the people that God has entrusted to us but to steward their lives from a risk management standpoint. Again, thank you for taking the time to view this today.