Transcription
Most conversations about aging focus on preventing decline, avoiding disease, preserving function, or extending lifespan. Those goals matter. But today, we're asking a different question. What if the very challenges of aging are shaping us into wiser, more compassionate, and more integrated human beings?
Welcome to the Aging Well podcast, where we explore the science, stories, and strategies that help us live longer, healthier, and more purposeful lives. I am your host, Dr. Jeff Armstrong, an exercise physiologist with a passion for making science simple and life better as we age, with my co-host Corbin Brutin.
Inspired by Pierre Tihar Dishan's seven stages of suffering, the transformative wisdom of Cabala, and our SPICEs model of well-centered fitness, we're exploring what I am calling the seven stages of aging well. These are not seven steps to complete, but seven recurring movements of transformation that help us navigate the journey of aging with purpose, resilience, and hope. Rather than viewing aging as decline, we'll consider how it can become a process of ascension, one that shapes not only how long we live, but who we become.
The Aging Well podcast encourages informed decision-making, and always consult your physician and scientific literature when making decisions about your health.
Hey, Dr. Armstrong, let me ask you this. What inspired you to develop the seven stages of aging?
Well, uh, it stemmed from really some reading I was doing on a recent, uh, family vacation to Korea. We had a long flight, so I took a bunch of books with me. Uh, one of the books was a book called um, Pierre Tihar Derdan, Seven Stages of Suffering. It's written by um Lewis M. Sa Savvery, I believe is how you pronounce the name, and Patricia H. Burn. And I also read, um, kind of interested in kind of understanding a little bit more of Andrew Grin Brown's where he's coming from, who's been on um both of my podcasts, both of the podcasts, and he comes from a perspective of being a uh Cabala Jew. And so I was kind of interested, what is what is all this? And so I was doing the reading and particularly reading the book about the heart. Now, it's not written by him, but it's written kind of synthesizing his writings um and what he, how he broke down suffering into really seven stages. And so, it's based off of that. But as I was reading that, those two books and you having had other conversations and things, it really just kind of struck me as this is a model for when we talk about aging as ascension rather than decline. And you know, a lot of when we look at some of the so-called healthy aging models, they're focused on preventing loss. And that's the whole perspective is just how do we minimize the amount of decline in the third age so that, you know, we don't have a prolonged fourth age and have a lot of illness and be dependent on others and all those types of things. So, it's it's all about kind of minimizing decline, but nobody really talking about how do we ascend in this aging process? How do we continue to grow? And Tiar asks a much deeper question. He talks, you know, when he talks about suffering, he talks about how does adversity transform us? And, you know, we're exercise physiologists, right? Or exercise scientists, we we talk about the overload principle a lot where we talk about in order for a body system to adapt, it has to be stressed to a level greater than that to which it is accustomed. Well, the same thing applies across the SPICEs model. If we want to grow spiritually, physically, intellectually, emotionally, and socially, we need some kind of stressor to prompt that growth. And so growth in the aging process requires some level of challenge. I wouldn't necessarily say it has to be adversity. We don't need to get sick. We don't need to have disease, but we need to have a stimulus to continue to promote growth in the dimensions of wealth-centered fitness. And from the perspective of Cabala, it teaches that resistance is often the doorway to revelation. And so, it's kind of the same thing. If we are struggling against something, it usually opens us up to a better understanding of ourselves, of others, of the universe. And so, how do we apply that in the aging process? And so, you know, reading through that, I just really started thinking on, okay, these seven stages can be applied to aging. And our SPICEs framework really provides a practical framework or model for cultivating this transformation. And so I just got to thinking, you know, we we talk about spiritual evolution. Uh, you know, we could talk about biological evolution, the whole evolutionary process of just growth. Growth is evolution. And so aging can become an evolutionary, a growth process, a process of becoming whole. You know, we we've talked about aging as becoming, not just simply being and declining, but becoming whole rather than simply just growing older. And so, that's what kind of sets the stage for why I um adopted or adapted uh Tihar's seven stages of suffering to be seven stages of aging.
Well, what a perfect segue for my next question. And I want to talk about those seven stages. So the first stage is outer resistance. What does that mean in the context of aging?
Well, I think this is where we focus the most when it comes to aging is when we look at aging inevitably is going to present very external challenges to our body. You know, we we have economic issues to deal with as we get older, health issues, societal issues, changing your, you know, retiring from your job, uh, maybe, you know, moving away from the home you've lived in for 20 or 30 years as you've been raising a family. There are physical challenges, you have illness, you have retirement, caregiving, uh, questions, you have loss. As you get older, you are going to lose loved ones. I mean, it's inevitable. The older we get, the more of our friends are going to die. Uh, we have changing roles. We face ageism in our society. So, there's a lot of these things that we have to face as we get older. And I think that's where longevity, the longevity approach stops. You know, it's just focused on how do we manage these changes? How do we prevent illness? How do we prepare for retirement? You know, how do we approach these different circumstances in our lives? And I believe these challenges in our lives as we age are not necessarily punishments, but they're really invitations for growth. And so when we talk about external resistance, we're talking about creating these opportunities for growth in every aspect of the SPICEs framework. All the different dimensions, the spiritual, physical, intellectual, emotional, and social. And, you know, a lot of times the physical limitations that we face as we age are awakening us to deeper capacities, you know, spiritual, emotional, even social. Um, you know, I think we mentioned in a recent episode about how, you know, we get to the final stage of life and we might, you know, have unresolved relationships that we might, you know, we can still grow because in those final stages of life, we might be able to accept some of the things that we did poorly in life and, you know, forgive ourselves, forgive others. You know, change those relationships up to the very end. And so having this as the first stage, this is where we are shifting the question from how do I stop this? How do we stop the aging process? Which again is the longevity model. Let's biohack our way to 120 years of life. Um, or I get disease, go to my physician, get a pill, you know, what do I have to take to cure this? We are, you know, going from being reactive to proactive. But also it shifts the question to, what is this asking of me? You know, what am I to gain from these present circumstances? And so, how do we turn our circumstances into a stimulus for growth and for a greater, more universal benefit to others?
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You kind of touched on it a little bit, but it's about inner resistance. I'm just, I guess I'm just wondering, how is inner resistance different?
Well, I think it's very different and I think that's one of the foundations of this Aging Well podcast is that we are focused beyond just the outer resistance to aging but now turning inward. And, you know, a lot of what we face as we get older are internal conflicts. You know, you look in a mirror and you're seeing wrinkles. You're seeing a little bit more fat. You're seeing less muscle mass. And we, we look at, I'm getting old. This is this is this is I'm not myself anymore. We fear aging and we hold on to this attachment to our youth rather than looking at, okay, how do we seize the moment and, you know, propel ourselves forward based on the experiences that we've had in life? And, you know, when we age, we start to lose some of that identity. You know, if you were an athlete in your youth, invariably you're going to retire from that sport. Whether you're, you know, just simply a high school athlete or you go into professional athletics, you're going to retire from that. And so, you can't hold on to that. You're going to retire from whatever your career is. You know, I can identify now as a college professor, but in some years to come, I'm going to be retiring from that. Do I continue? You know, I'm 95 years old, I'm a professor. No, dude, you haven't taught for 30 years, you know? So, you know, we lose that identity. And so, when we're dealing with the inner resistance, that's where we're kind of confronting our ego, our need to be controlling every aspect of our lives, this need for perfectionism. And um, again, not to dive too deeply into, you know, whether it's, you know, whatever religious practices it might be or whatever, but Cabala, you know, kind of in reading the way by Michael Berg, um, he talks about how Cabala describes us as kind of confronting the reactive self. And so again, we're we're trying to move away from being reactive to our circumstances and being more proactive. And so as we move into that inner resistance, we're moving toward taking more control, um, being more proactive as opposed to reactive. And when we are looking to transform ourselves, this transformation begins to recognize what we are resisting internally. You know, as we struggle with the aging process, what is it about it that is giving us the greatest conflict? Is it the fact that we're not looking as youthful as we used to? You know, how many people will go on to have plastic surgeries and, you know, different Botox and, you know, take all these biohacks, you know, increase their supplements to, you know, 100 plus pills a day, doing all these things to try and hold on to youth rather than looking at, okay, how can I carry all this wisdom and learning that I have acquired over my life to transform others, you know? So, it moves us from being a much more self-centered to a more other-centered, it's that more transformative self that we talk about. And so, when we talk about the SPICEs model or the SPICEs framework, this encourages a bit more self-awareness across every dimension of our life. And so now we're moving away from, you know, just simply maybe biomarkers and chronological age, moving from, you know, lifespan and health span into more of what, you know, again, we we've underscored a lot what, you know, Dr. Carrie Bernight had labeled as joy span. Um, it's all about getting that greater vitality in our life, great that greater usefulness, getting the most out of our years.
Well said. Well, the third stage, um, is prayer. Now, in your opinion, how should our viewers and listeners understand prayer here?
Well, I want to shift it a bit more away from the prayer because I think, you know, from a spiritual aspect, um, anybody who's maybe tuning in and says, well, I'm an atheist. I don't believe in God. I don't pray. They just shut down there and they're going to stop. Well, there's no, nothing beyond this stage. And, you know, prayer has a differing relevance in across religious practices, but this idea, the third step being prayer, extends beyond religious practice. I, I think we can kind of shift that into a broader sense of mindfulness. Um, you know, this would be where part of our aging process is increasing the degree to which we are doing practices like contemplation. We talk about gratitude with two T's. You know, having that attitude of gratitude, maybe spending a bit more time in nature and just kind of observing the silence and, you know, what's what's our mind and our experience telling us, learning to be more open to new ideas, being able to discern good from bad, you know, and prayer as a practice reorients our perspective from control to participation. And mindfulness kind of does the same thing. It's like we don't want to be trying to control things. And another reason I, you know, I want to kind of move beyond the Tihar's labeling of prayer is that third stage is that, you know, for a lot of people, prayer is, um, a request rather than a conversation. Um, it's a, um, more of a being a recipient as opposed to a participant in our lives. And so when we're talking about prayer or mindfulness from an aging standpoint, we want aging to become something that we are cooperating with rather than fighting against. And so that sense of prayer, mindfulness is, how do we begin to, okay, we've we've tried to fight the aging process through exercise, through proper eating, getting proper sleep, doing all the things on the kind of [snorts] what is it, the five first five pillars that we talk about are more of those first two stages. The third stage kind of then begins to move us into, not quite yet, and maybe into the social connections, but into that purpose. You know, we just recently added our seventh pillar is big P purpose. This is where the third stage comes in is, how do I begin to identify and understand my purpose? And, you know, part of that is going to be from a religious standpoint, prayer and connection to your God, your higher power, but also connecting mindfully to, what is that big P purpose? Does that make sense? It's a, this is an area that's a little bit harder to articulate. And I think this is an area for, you know, much greater exploration on an individual level that, you know, for ourselves, we have to spend time in contemplation, meditation, journaling, mindfulness, just going out in nature, hiking, and just trying to be in that state of peacefulness, that state of shalom where we're just allowing ourselves to just kind of receive what we are to receive. and to take that and and use it in participation with something greater than self.
Well, I think you nailed it. Um, prayer.
Well, good, because I don't know that I...
No, I mean, prayer, prayer is an individualized thing. And and you're right. There's a lot of people out there where they're like, "Oh, please do this and please do that," when they're praying. And then it's just a conversation. That's all it is. It's just a conversation. And sometimes when you're having conversations, it's not just one person talking the entire time. Sometimes you actually have to listen. And when that listening comes in, if you're asking a question, sometimes you just got to be quiet and you got to listen. And with that, I mean, you talked about the big P, big P purpose. If your question is, what's my big P purpose? And I would say you have to look, go with the other P and which is patience, right?
Right.
So while you're listening, you got to have patience, which is part of my next question actually. Why is patience such an essential stage of aging?
Well, yes. So as we get into now this fourth stage of patience, aging is a process. It unfolds gradually. You know, we we don't experience aging overnight. Um, you know, maybe in some, I mean, there's a, one of my favorite, uh, TV shows, Supernatural, they did an episode where they had this, I don't know what the guy was, but he had some kind of magic power where you play poker with him and if you win, you, you know, kind of gain youthfulness. If you lose, you age. And people would lose big and they'd age like 30, 40 years overnight, you know, and then it ended up kind of dying. Age doesn't happen that way. It happens overnight, right? I mean, it happens over time. It takes time for us to age and it's a process that we, we can modify. You know, so when we talk about exercise, you know, you can start exercising any stage in your life. You know, doesn't matter. Oh, I'm too old to start lifting weights. No, you're not. You know, the best time to start is today. And so when we look at, you know, just going back to physical adaptation, if you start exercising, you know, you're not going to lose that weight overnight. You're not going to gain muscle mass overnight. You're not going to drop your cholesterol overnight. You know, you're not going to reverse your heart disease overnight. It takes time. It takes consistency. It takes consistent effort. And, you know, so even when we're looking at emotional healing, you know, you, you can't say, go to a therapy session and, oh, I, I'm healed. I'm, I'm good to go. I've, I've, uh, overcome all this negative emotion or this regret and everything else that we might have. It takes time. We have to make small changes. This is why we talk about baby steps so much on this podcast. You know, baby steps are patience. You know, we're not taking leaps and bounds. We're taking baby steps along the way. And, you know, with age, we talk about wisdom coming with age. Well, that's that comes with lived experience. You know, you don't become wise overnight. Again, I'm going to keep going through that overnight. We, everything is going to take years to accomplish and aging is a long process. And aging well is an even longer process. And so, wisdom develops through life experience. And, you know, kind of going back to Tihar's vision of evolution, that it reminds us that growth is cumulative. You know, we gain from the past. Any experience that we have had in the past has, whether it's good or bad, has brought us to where we are today. And this is where, you know, I, we've talked frequently on this podcast about, you know, the idea of being asked the question, if you can go back in time and change any one thing, what would you change? And my answer is always nothing.
Because if I go back in time and change anything, I'm a different person right now. I haven't grown in the way that I, I would say needed to grow to be who I am and who I am becoming. And likewise, you know, I'm not going to interact with people the same way. People that I have interacted with in the past, they're not going to be who they are. And so if you've had a really crappy life and, you know, you are in a bad situation, you can change that situation. You can, you know, make changes in your life that are going to, you know, maybe you're not going to propel into a more a perfect life. Nobody's going to have a perfect life. And I don't want a perfect life because if everything were perfect, I'd have no growth. You know, if I was born into a perfect situation, whatever that perfect situation might be, you know, it's it's not going to get me anywhere. It's not going to get society anywhere. And so that growth is cumulative. Your growth affects me. My growth affects you. Um, the growth that we have made over our lifetime is just preparing us for the next stage of growth. And so patient, really, patience really just allows the work of transformation to mature over time.
Yeah, I, I would agree. I do think with patients, or situations that we're in, we do have a choice on what we do with that, which ironically is the fifth stage, which is choice. Um, in your opinion, Dr. Armstrong, why is this such a pivotal moment?
Well, I think that, you know, it's it's not ironic. It's it, it is a necessary next step in the aging process and aging well. It's, you know, we're not, as I was talking about with the patients, and again, we're going to see that these stages overlap and we go back and forth between them. They all feed into the next stage. So this isn't necessarily a, we're not talking about a seven-step process to aging well. We're talking about this is the process of aging well. And so as we move our through our lives and we have different circumstances arise, and this is where, you know, I, you know, my blog is titled Carpe Momento, you know, it's seize the moment because whatever's happened in the past has brought us to where we are right now, and we have a choice. You know, we talk about baby steps. What is that baby step going to be? We have a choice to, you know, step forward into things. And I had, you know, a re, recent interview that I had with um Ramona Ror and um Andreas Higgel. Um, it kind of came up, you know, sometimes we have to take a step back. Sometimes that first step is a step back and say, "Okay, where am I at? What do I need to adapt right now?" And so that choice is, what are we going to step into or away from in this moment? So we don't choose every circumstance, but we choose our response. And, you know, we can blame people for our past all we want, but it's not getting us anywhere. But we can't blame anybody for our future.
Whatever happened in the past has happened, you know, you could say for a reason or it could just be random occurrence. It, but it's happened. It has brought you where you are. Are you going to grow from that or are you going to allow it to continue to own you? And so every day presents new opportunities for us to cultivate these these dimensions of the SPICEs framework. And Michael Berg emphasizes that freedom exists between stimulus and reaction. And I believe that was also um part of Victor Frankl's writings that, you know, we have a choice to make in in these circumstances that we are in. And so aging well becomes an intentional practice rather than an accidental outcome. So if we allow ourselves to just be, you know, consumed by our circumstances, we're not going to age well. But if we are intentional about our diet, about our exercise and physical activity habits, about our sleep, about our social connections, about the things that we choose to do, and this is, you know, whether we smoke, don't smoke, alcohol consumption, healthy relationships. If, if we just allow everything to happen to us, we're not going to age well. This is where, you know, disease is going to happen. You know, I, I have a choice. Do I eat healthy and hope for the best outcome? Or do I say, well, you know, there's nothing I can do about it. So, you know, processed foods, McDonald's, those are convenient and that's what's available to me. So, you know, I can't do anything about it. So I'm just going to take whatever circumstances come. And of course, you know, I just go to my physician and my physician will heal me. Um, that's not aging well, you know, and so this is where again, big P purpose comes into play. And that big P purpose is expressed by the choices that we make on a daily basis.
Love it. Ah, that's so good.
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Can you repeat what you said not too long ago? It's not about the past, it's the future. Say that one more time. That was so good.
Okay. What did, what exactly did I say? I, I guess, you know, our, our circumstances not about, um, how did I phrase that? I don't know. You might have to just kind of rewind in this episode because sometimes I'm just inspired. You, I get that divine inspiration to say something. But I think what I was saying is that when, you know, we can't live in the past because that's whatever happened in the past happened to us and we can't do anything about that. But what we can do is how do we use that? So the only thing that we really can control is the future, you know. So we make the choices that, you know, whatever happened to us in the past is for our purposes of our growth and our development and how we use that going forward is our responsibility. I don't know if that was quite what I said.
It was much better. Yeah. It was like, you can make all the excuses about your past, but you can't, can't make any excuse for your future. And it's like, oh, that's so good. So true.
Love it. Yeah, and it is true. I mean, I think, you know, we too often want to blame our past for where we're at right now. And that's fine to kind of blame the past. But again, you still, as you make a choice, you've made that choice. Your past didn't make the choice. You know, you've made it in circumstances you're in. And yes, for some people, the choices that are to be made are more difficult than they are for others because of whatever's happened in the past. But still, you have a responsibility there. You're not a victim. You are...
A victor.
A victor. That's I like that. Yeah. So...
Yeah.
Well, I think with that attitude and that mindset that comes with like, uh, I guess you could call it mental maturity or emotional maturity, but it definitely is a form of spiritual growth as well. And I guess...
Yeah, and again, the big S, spiritual, that we talked about, you know, that...
Spiritual is something greater than self.
Right. So let me ask you this. What does personal spiritual growth look like in the second half of our lives?
Yeah. So now we're up to that, um, the sixth stage of aging well. Um, so personal spiritual growth is more about the integration of the whole person. So this is who am I becoming personally? What, what, what am I, you know, again, it's going back to what we just talked about in terms of patience into, uh, into choice. When we make the choices, we've made those choices. Our past has led us to the point where we're at. The choices that we make are our personal spiritual development. You know, how am I going to use what has happened to me, what's happening to me to make myself a better person so that I can be a whole person? You know, this is kind of like, you know, healing yourself. Um, so when we're looking at growing, we want to grow as a person and that's going to require humility. It brings into play again that attitude of gratitude, our gratitude with two T's. Um, it might require having greater compassion for yourself as well as others. Uh, it's kind of freeing ourselves from our ego and from any external validation. You know, at this point in our life, as we get older, who cares what other people think about you? If you, if you're moving into your 50s, 60s, and older and you're still worried about what people are thinking, you're not a teenager anymore. You know, it's like give it up. Just be who you are, but be who you are for something greater than just, you know, yourself and for, um, what others think, you know? So, it's, you don't need to be validated by others anymore. It's like learn to to grow further spiritually, physically, intellectually, emotionally, and socially and begin to understand how those are all interconnected. So now, you know, as we move into this stage of aging well, we're starting now to apply the SPICEs model in our lives, applying that SPICEs framework and, you know, pulling all of those earlier stages up a little bit more to to just beginning to grow and ascend as a person. I'm not sure if I'm really articulating that as well as I should, but hopefully that's something that people are picking up on this podcast is when we talk about the, this being the Aging Well podcast, it's not about just locking ourselves into the first stage and just living longer, trying to not get sick, trying not to get wrinkles and lose muscle mass and do all those things. It's now becoming. And at this stage, we have recognized a bit more of who we are becoming, who we want to be, who we are supposed to be. And we're making the choices that are leading us further down that road toward becoming. And I'm just going to kind of leave it at becoming because who we are becoming, what are we becoming, is highly individualized.
Totally. It's completely individualized. It's also, you know, you, you mentioned people in their, you know, 40s, 50s, 60s. I'm only in my 30s, but I, I, I can recognize that there are some individuals that do struggle with some of the things where you're like, "Hey, don't do this anymore." And insecurity is, I've learned, a nasty stronghold over an individual. And I think the advice that you're giving is so spot-on. If an individual can find comfort in who they are, or if they're not comfortable with who they are, if they can at least strive for the person that they want to be or the, or have that big P purpose and change and be better than they were yesterday, man, I think as a society or even as a culture all around us, like just striving to be a little bit better makes a lot of changes in the world. And unfortunately, there's some individuals that are out there that they just don't have that mindset and it's, it's, they're almost like held captive by their own self and it's, it's heartbreaking to see sometimes.
Well, I think we all are in that state once in a while. I mean, you know, speaking about all these things on this podcast, I wouldn't want anybody listening or watching this podcast to think, "Wow, gee, Dr. Armstrong really got his together," because I don't. It's this is all very much aspirational. I mean, this, the idea of aging well is something that I feel personally I am just beginning to understand. I mean, we started this podcast four and a half years ago and, you know, we were much more focused on longevity and, you know, I think we were pretty much more locked into stage one, right? And, you know, this podcast has evolved more toward now we're starting to understand a little bit more of all seven of these stages, but doesn't mean that you or I got this together and we're doing it well. It's just we're doing it better than we did yesterday. And maybe today we won't do it as well as we did yesterday. But that's okay because there's always tomorrow. And the decision that I make now, okay, yeah, I really screwed up today socially. I just, you know, I woke up on the wrong side of the bed and I just, you know, I was nasty to my family. I kicked the dog and, you know, I was just really just grumpy all day and I didn't get anything accomplished. Okay, so what? You're going to do it tomorrow? If you wake up the next day and, you know, you're in Groundhog Day where you just keep doing and, you know, you watch the movie Groundhog Day. Did he do the same thing every day? No. Every day was different because he began to adapt and learn from the things that the mistakes that he made. And, you know, we don't have that opportunity to be trapped in the same day until we get it right. You know, we just have to learn from the day before and do better today. And, you know, tomorrow's going to be another day. If we have that, if we're blessed enough to have tomorrow, then tomorrow should be ideally a better day than it was yesterday or today.
Man, this is so good.
Okay.
Final stage. The final stage is collective spiritual growth. Why does the journey end with others rather than ourselves?
Uh, because I think that's that's the point. And again, by the point, I mean the point of why we define the SPICEs framework as a pyramid that we're moving toward that greater social connection. What is that, uh, greater community, greater unity, greater love, and doing for others. And so again, it's it's beyond growing for our own self-purposes. Um, we're not being self or other, you know, overly other servants. Um, I don't want to phrase that, you know, we're not submissive to other, overly submissive to others. When we think of being other-centered, it's being better selves and better servants for others for a greater purpose than ourselves. And so when we get into that final stage, and this is a difficult stage because, you know, we're not all in the same spot and, you know, we're not all growing toward that, but as we grow, we have influence on others and that influence can benefit the whole of society. And so as we become older, and this is where we really need in this country and throughout the world to have a greater reverence for the aging population, for our elders because the mature elder is a source of wisdom. And yes, you know, the older generation, you have younger people here that might be listening to this show and saying, "Yeah, you, the older generation, you boomers and you millennials, you really effed up the world." And we have to deal with this, you know, the the crap that you're leaving behind. And that may be the case, but you know what? Most of your mature elders have recognized the mistakes that they have made and they're doing their best to kind of correct those. You know, no parent wants their kid to be less of a person than they were. You know, they want them to be better. And in many cases, that's where we parents really end up screwing up and maybe messing up our kids because we want the best for them and we get overly frustrated when that best isn't coming out or what we perceive their to be their best or should be their best isn't doesn't gel with reality. You know, it's not what they're supposed to be. And and so a mature elder becomes a source of wisdom and we can share that wisdom with other people. Um, that big P purpose begins to, I guess I don't want to say the big P purpose expands, but we expand into that big P purpose and that extends us from a focus on personal success to a more communal flourishing. And so I kind of like to modify Tihar's definition of being collective spiritual growth to be more communal spiritual growth where we're growing together. Um, and the opportunities that aging give us to be able to do that. You know, you're retired. You're you have less responsibilities at home. You know, your kids have grown up and they've moved on. They have, you know, their own families now. You have opportunity to mentor, you know, be a coach. Um, go to the, you know, primary schools in the area and, you know, read to the kids. Um, you know, just one of the recent episodes we, I was talking about um a program, you know, a program I think it was developed in Pittsburgh, my hometown, where they recognized that there were a lot of kids that were missing school because parents couldn't get them to school or couldn't get them ready because they were working and doing other things. And so they recruited a bunch of seniors to, you know, call these kids in the morning and just give them a word of encouragement, make sure they were getting off to school. In some cases, they were actually picking them up and taking them to school. And, you know, there's so many opportunities that we can involve ourselves in our communities to to mentor, to volunteer, to help other people. Um, we could be grandparents.
When you said seniors, were you talking about the like the elderly population, seniors, or were you talking about the seniors in high school? We're out.
I'm talking about like senior senior adults, you know, not senior students, but um, I don't want to say the elderly because we don't like to use that term elderly and then even the, you know, seniors. So, it was more the elders, the older, more retired individuals in the community that had time, you know, they're looking for things to do and, you know, our older population suffers from loneliness and isolation. What greater opportunity to overcome that by bringing them in contact with other generations and other areas of the population and utilize their years of experience to to benefit others. And so there's so much that we can do. Um, you know, we talk about the the pinnacle of the SPICEs framework. You know, Tihar envisioned evolution moving us toward some greater unity, toward greater love. And that's what the aging process should be all about. Ultimately, aging well contributes to the growth of families, communities, and future generations. So, aging is, aging well isn't about me and how long I live. It's not about longevity. It's not about biohacks. It's about contributing to the universe, the world that we have been born into and have making whatever contribution we can make and focusing in on making a better contribution than we maybe did yesterday.
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And how would you say the SPICEs model supports all seven stages?
Well, you know, I don't think the SPICEs framework is another stage. It just means that it's the, it's the means by which we transform. Um, so every challenge that we face in our aging in our lives can be spiritual, physical, intellectual, and emotional. You know, we have spiritual formation. It could be an opportunity for forming ourselves for the betterment of others for something greater than ourselves. You know, it could be a prompt for physical adaptation. You know, exercising, changing our diet, all the things that we do to live longer, um, have some benefit to others besides ourselves. You know, if I get stronger, uh, stay healthier, avoid card, you know, cancer and heart disease, I'm going to be available for my kids, my grandkids, great-great-grandkids, however many generations I'm able to live to see. I'm going to be able to benefit them physically. Intellectual learning is, you know, we always have the opportunity to continue to grow intellectually. Um, every challenge in our life is certainly an opportunity for emotional maturity. You know, I think emotional maturity is kind of the keystone of the SPICEs framework. And then there's the social connection. You know, we have the opportunity to reach out to others, to be helpful, to receive help, to learn, to participate in our communities. And so the dimensions of the SPICEs framework aren't independent. They are interdependent. And so the whole person, whole person health supports whole, whole person transformation. So the, the more well we are across the dimensions, the more we are able to transform and help others to transform.
Now, in a past episode, we've definitely discussed, you know, aging as ascension rather than decline. I guess my question is, how do the seven stages reinforce that idea?
Well, I think we first have to accept the fact that, you know, aging biologically is real. You know, we are aging. Um, there, there's nothing that we can do about that until, you know, they solve the telomere issue and, you know, we can find a way to restore our telomeres daily and so we never see any of that. You know, we are going to see cellular decline and I don't, I don't think there is any way to avoid biological aging and death. Um, and the idea of wanting to live forever is just unreasonable and to me, not aging well because, you know, if we all lived physically to infinity, our population would just continue to grow and grow and grow. Well, how are we going to sustain that? You know, and how, you know, power would continue to go to those who are the wealthiest and live the longest and maintain and hold on to that wealth. You know, imagine, and I can use Elon Musk as an example here, who just recently became the first trillionaire. Um...
Did he seem pregnant?
Yeah. Yeah. He's a trillionaire now. And he, um, but he's made the statement he doesn't want to live forever. He doesn't think that people should live forever because that robs other people of opportunities and it also robs us of fresh ideas and that growth is going to stagnate if we have people living too long because, you know, the old ideas just continue to permeate, whereas you bring in fresh ideas, then those are going to grow society and and help us to ascend. And so, um, you know, our human development doesn't stop with physical aging. You know, so from a biological standpoint, yeah, okay, we, we start at conception, we develop, we hit physical maturity probably somewhere around the age of maybe 25, and then we start to see many of the systems begin to begin to break down. Some of that breakdown can be averted by being physically active, eating healthy, and all those types of things. So, how fast our bodies begin to break down, um, is somewhat within our control, but it's also a function of our environment and how everything around us interacts with our bodies as well. Um, so, you know, it, it's not only possible that we see functional decline, it's very, very likely that we are going to see some level of functional decline. You know, you're not going to be a high-level athlete your entire life. It's just not going to happen. Even the most fit individuals in their 20s, when they get into their 50s, 60s, and 70s, are not running as fast, lifting as heavy, moving as quickly as they did when they were younger. But that doesn't mean that our development as humans has to stop as we age. You know, we can continue to grow and we should continue to grow in wisdom, knowledge, love, purpose, that big P purpose, and spiritual depth, in our emotional maturity, in our intellect, in all these different aspects of the SPICEs framework. And so when we talk about ascension, we're really just talking about becoming more integrated, more compassionate, more fully human, you know, so ascension is about becoming, not declining. And so every stage of aging offers us an opportunity to transform, to become a better, more whole person.
I love that. Uh, aging is about becoming. We should add, not not the fact that we be going as we age. Like we're becoming of the age. And so focus on the becoming part, not the be going. Ah, I'm the aging song. I'm going to be going soon. Like that's a really, that little tweak right there, that's an awesome mindset to have.
Okay, I like that. So, there's obviously there's going to be someone who's listening to this episode and they're probably navigating, oh, you know, what, what stage am I in?
So, for our viewers and listeners, how, how can they identify which stage that they may be experiencing right now?
Yeah. And I think, you know, it can be a little bit difficult because they do tend to blend together. I don't think it's as as concrete as Tihar's seven stages of suffering might be. Um, and it's important to understand that these are not linear stages. These are not things that, you know, I'm in stage one, now I'm in stage two, now I'm in stage three. We're going to bounce around within...
those stages. So, we revisit them throughout our life. And so, it's not like I got to get, you know, an early start on these, you know, seven stages of aging.
Um, ideally, yeah, we want to get started on them early. I mean, we want to be in stage one early and start looking at, okay, what can I do to prevent disease and, um, accelerated decline as I age early on. You know, the things that we do in our 20s can have an impact. You know, the more strength, the more muscle mass, the more cardiovascular endurance that I build up in my 20s and continue to maintain is going to give me more to maintain or more that I can potentially lose over the course of my lifetime as opposed to I do nothing until I hit 50 and say, "Gee, I'm getting I'm really out of shape. I got to get in shape, so I got to start lifting now." You're not going to build up a reserve that you have to lose.
And so, you know, it's not it's so important of what stage am I in right now, but it's like what am I doing across these stages to to be aging well and where do I, you know, where do I need to develop? And so, sometimes it could be circumstantial uh or situational, you know, what external challenge am I facing right now? And so this is where journaling can help us to better identify, okay, where am I in these stages? Um, do I need to step back? Do I need to step forward? What do I need to do?
Um, you know, if we're looking at what internal resistance is emerging, you know, maybe you're starting to uh, you know, feel some pain in a joint and so, okay, what am I going to do about that? or you know if I and it's often very easy to see kind of from the biological markers you know where we're at in in terms of the physical and then what are we doing internally to resist that um but spiritually or intellectually socially you know I I think like intellectually if I'm having a conversation with someone and h you know I really don't quite understand what they're talking about then that is telling you that there's an internal resistance here. You need to go learn a little bit in order to to grow in that state.
Um, you know, then ask ourselves am I take making space for prayer or that reflection piece for mindfulness. um, what areas and I always joke you know it's like you pray for patience and you know got to be careful praying for patience because God might just give you you know a a need for more patience you know and it just showing you where you don't have patience and so you know just being attuned to okay am I trying to rush this um where where do I need to develop patience where am I developing patience um, you know, look at what choices am I making on a daily basis u and where am I being forced to make cho choices that are hard choices and that might be an area where you need to grow you know so where am I growing where is my growth benefiting others just asking you these questions can help you just kind of identify where am I on this continuum just realize that you know today you might hit stage seven tomorrow you might be back to stage one it's it's okay you know and just look at it from the perspective of the different dimensions of the spies framework.
Um, some of these are going to be u more challenged in certain seasons of our life than others. You know, there's going to be a period where maybe illness hits and you you got to just focus on your physical health and you don't have as much time to focus on your spiritual, your intellectual. Um, it might even cause you to have to not necessarily break ties from relationships, but you have to I can't I can't be so other centered right now. I'm sick. I need to focus on me. I got to get well. I got to get healthy. And so, it's okay to look at yourself in those situations where it's like, I need more me time. I need to step back to stage one here and I can't be so concerned about stage five, six and seven. You know, it's like I just have to do what I have to do right now so that I can get better so that tomorrow I can get right back on track to aging well.
Before we continue, a quick note. This show isn't sponsored, but we do use carefully chosen affiliate partnerships. These are products [music] we trust and personally use. And when you use our links, it directly supports the podcast. You'll find everything in [music] the show notes, including a tip jar if you'd like to support the show directly. Now, back to the conversation.
Well, we've discussed a lot in today's episode, all of it was super awesome. Um, if there was a take-home message from today's episode, what would you have the listeners or even the viewers uh remember from today's conversation? And what what would you hope that would be?
>> Oh, well, there's probably several messages and I guess the viewer, listener can pick whichever one they want to take away from this episode. But, you know, I I think one of the things that we definitely preach about on the aging well podcast is that aging isn't simply measured by the years that we've lived. You know, it's great that we want to maybe live to be 120, but it's the quality of those years that we're um have have on this earth. And you know, if it's only 60 years, live them well. You know, it's like um what did I hear recently um somebody talking about their uh I think it was like a mother or grandmother or somebody dying and um oh somebody talking about their I think it was their aunt died at 103 and you know this person told their kids they said you know I forget what the name was let's just call her Aunt May um go to Spider-Man there aunt A, you know, lived to be 103. 102 of those were great, you know, and so, okay, that last year was a year of decline. It was hard, but you know what? If we got 102 out of 103 years, we're living well, that's a pretty awesome life. And so, we're not measuring it in years. We're measuring at the quality of those years.
I would also say that every season of life invites opportunity for transformation. So wherever you are right now, you are standing on the precipice of transformation. What are you going to do with that? Um when we find ourselves resisting change and growth, use that as a time for reflection. Generally that is revealing some some area that we need to change and transform. And I would also say that you know growth is possible in every decade. You know, we're not speaking to the old old right now on the aging well podcast. You know, we talk about aging well begins at conception and very likely before. So, you know, as an individual who might be at childbearing age, your activities, whatever you do for yourself right now is also having an impact on any future offspring that you might produce. But also as we are born is you know certainly as we're born those first months years of life we are dependent on others. We can still make choices and those choices are going to grow as we get older. You know our opportunity to make choice um as we become increasingly independent from dependency to independency. We have greater opportunity to make choices and those choices are ours to make and we can't at any point in our life look back and blame. Yes, you know, you might have a crappy childhood because you had crappy parents. You didn't choose wisely. Maybe you chose wisely. Maybe the fact that you had those crappy parents are for a purpose greater than yourself.
>> And so playing the victim isn't going to get us anywhere. Come on.
>> Learning to move forward. Wherever we are in life, growth is always possible. And I think probably to summarize it all is just that the ultimate goal of aging well is not merely to extend our life, but to become increasingly whole. And that's spiritually, physically, intellectually, emotionally, and socially. So that our lives become more of a gift to others.
>> Wow. So, I guess you could say aging well is a gift not only to ourselves but to others.
>> Wow, that's good. So good. All right. Well, I hope that our viewers that are listeners definitely enjoyed this episode today. I know I have. I I feel like this was such an amazing conversation. If you got a take-home message from it, awesome. It's your choice on what to do with that take-home message and figure out where you want to be. You can stand on the seven pillars or you can follow our spies model. Either way, we encourage you all to continue to age well.
>> Thank you for listening to the Aging Well podcast. If this episode was helpful, share it with someone who could benefit. And if you'd like to support the show, [music] you'll find our affiliate links and tip jar in the show notes. [music]
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