Transcription
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Hello, good afternoon, friends. This is CC Gurukul Live Lecture Series, and we are already running the series. Uh, we have done it for a number of lectures, four, five, and, uh, today, uh, we'll be discussing, uh, William Blake, who belonged to the 18th century and who was there in the 19th century also. And he was a major figure in English literature, starting his career, intellectual career, in the 18th century. And he, in fact, introduced a trend that became a dominant trend through the entire 19th century. We have on for this lecture as a resource person, Dr. P. Nagal, who teaches English literature in Janvi Memorial College, Delhi University. And she has done extensive work on Modern drama and contemporary poetry, plus the Romantic age. And, uh, today, she'll be discussing William Blake as a poet. And she'll go into the questions of the, uh, 18th century and the trend, you know, was rooted in the 18th century in a different way. Initially, it was supposed to to support the existing, uh, ideological state. But this person brought about a radical change in the very perception of the time in which he wrote.
So, Dr. P. Nagal, welcome to you for this lecture. And please tell us something about the 18th century, about William Blake, about what he stands for, his kind of writing, and the way, you know, he would interpret and and comment on the proceedings of that time. You might, and then we can talk further about it.
Thank you, Professor Prakash. Uh, we've already, uh, in a sense, you know, as part of the series, had a detailed discussion about the 18th century and the way the 18th century particularly undergoes a lot of change and the way, uh, you know, England changes in the 18th century. So, from the beginning, uh, you know, where, uh, we have, uh, poets like Johnson and so on, who are writing, uh, towards the end of the 18th century, when there is, where there is a very distinct, um, uh, change in the tone of the kind of poetry that's being written, especially with, uh, poets like, uh, Crabbe, with poets like Gray. So, they're writing, uh, you know, different kind of poetry. And, uh, when we look at Blake, William Blake has often been referred to as a pre-Romantic. Uh, you know, critics are generally reluctant in kind of including him in the category of the Romantic Poets.
So, um, would you call it the age of transition then? That is, a kind of transition is happening from the 18th century, early 18th century to the later 18th century?
Yes, yes. And especially the, uh, latter part of the 18th century, because that is where, uh, you know, a lot of development at the level of science, at the level of technology, these developments are taking place. And, uh, where, on the one hand, uh, you know, reason of the 18th century has given way, in a sense, to a kind of rationality that is manifest in writing, that is manifest in thought, and that is also manifest, in a sense, in the kind of, uh, world that people were living in. So, you know, be it, uh, the invention of the spinning jenny, or be it the invention of, you know, the steam engine and so on. So, these are changes that have, uh, impacted, in a sense, the lives of people in a very big way. So, it's important to situate Blake, you know, whether we want to include him in the bracket of Romantic Poets or not, or we want to look at him as a pre-Romantic poet. But it's important to actually situate him in his time to understand how William Blake, in that sense, I really want to call him like a brave poet, because he's using a tone that, uh, poets around that time are really not speaking. Not using, for instance, even when we talk about a kind of sentimentalism that enters, let's say, the poetry of Gray or the poetry of Crabbe. But in, uh, the case of William Blake, uh, it's, it's not mere, uh, sentimentalism. It is not mere, uh, melancholia. But there is a, a distinct effort on the part of the poet to kind of, uh, struggle with the world that he lives in and to translate a lot of that and his vision into poetry. That must be very appealing because the person is struggling to have a form which was not existing in his time. And the fact that, uh, Blake and his poetry, especially, should be read along with the illustrations. The fact that he was also, you know, an artist, and he, he would, uh, paint, and he would illustrate, and, you know, he used a very specific technique with which to kind of bring out his own, uh, uh, books. So, through the, through the sketches, through the paintings that he did, uh, we can understand the kind of world that existed in the 18th century. Yes, he, he's taking images from there also with the help of ink, for the, with the help of colors and things like that. That's true. That's totally true to Blake.
So, make a statement about the, uh, of Blake, and then we can see further.
Yes. So, um, I mean, in a sense, uh, as I mentioned, that, you know, critics generally want to look at William Blake either as, you know, as a pre-Romantic or a precursor, in a sense, to the Romantic Movement. But before we actually start analyzing Blake from the point of view of the Romantic Movement, uh, as mentioned, it is important to situate him in this dialogue that's happening in the 18th century and to see how he's actually kind of. Blake is so very special for that reason because he's moving away, in a sense, from the trajectory that, uh, you know, uh, we, we normally, um, uh, carve out from, let's say, Johnson to Gray to Goldsmith. But William Blake is, uh, you know, in a sense, I would like to situate him outside of that trajectory to see, uh, the kind of work that he has done. So, um, uh, he did not receive any kind of, he had, he came from a very simple family. The father was a hosiery dealer, and he was educated, uh, only in art. Did not receive any formal education of that sort. And at a very early age, he entered the Royal Academy of Art. And, uh, this, I, I think, uh, uh, talent and, uh, his, his creative aspect is evident in the, uh, work that he did in terms of illustrations. So, uh, he used to produce his own set of books. And because the technique, uh, of what is called illuminated printing that he used, where he worked on a copper plate and he would kind of, you know, um, uh, write in the reverse order and then etch it and, uh, so on. So, the number of books that he produced are very few. So, for example, Songs of Innocence and Experience, there were only 28 in number. Book of Urizen, 16. The Marriage of Heaven and Hell, 9. Jerusalem, 5. So, it's this technique is important because we have here a poet who's, um, imagining the society very differently. He's imagining, uh, the world that he lives in very differently. So, it's not as if, uh, that these, uh, illustrations or the illuminated printing printing that he did are to be looked at for their own sake, but the way they actually weave, you know, the way the poet is weaving patterns through, uh, you know, printing and through his poetry. So, um, his earliest work is Poetical Sketches. And he writes it, he's, he's very, very young, and, you know, in his 20s. And, um, during his lifetime, and Blake, William Blake, is one of the poets who lives on till about 1827. So, he's not really renowned in that sense either as a poet or, uh, an artist. And it's only later, you know, with, uh, writers like Yeats and the others, who actually kind of, you know, are able to, uh, analyze and understand William Blake for the, uh, the great work that he had actually done. So, uh, if you look at Poetical Sketches, and, uh, the reason I refer to this is that it's important to, um, uh, kind of, uh, carve out from his, uh, early work, the kind of trends that he, uh, introduces in his poetry, in his writing. And these are trends that are also going to be taken up by the Romantic Poets. So, for example, when we talk about the Poetical Sketches, there are, uh, you know, amongst other, there are these, uh, four poems, apart from other poems that are part of this, uh, particular collection. And these four poems are an invocation to each season. So, there is to Spring, to Summer, to Autumn, to Winter. And if I just, um, you know, read out, uh, a few lines, uh, of the Spring. So, "O thou with dewy locks, who lookest down through the clear windows of the morning, turn thine angel eyes upon our western isles, which in full choir hails thy approach, O Spring. The hills tell each other, and the listening valleys hear. All our longing eyes are turned up to thy bright pavilions. Issue forth, and let thy holy feet visit our clime." I would just, uh, through this, these lines, I want to draw attention towards two or three things that are, in a sense, very new to the kind of work that Blake is doing here. For example, U, you know, the, the reference to angel eyes, the reference to hills that are talking to each other, in a sense, telling each other, listening, the valley is here. So, they are, uh, you know, in a sense, it's not just about identifying a certain figure of speech, or the way in which, you know, either personification or metaphors are being used. But the idea is that nature is very, very important. So, we have nature. And we have, through this whole idea of angel eyes, we have a different, uh, the, the conception of the ideal. Now, that ideal could be, in the sense of God, that ideal could be, in the sense of nature. Both these ideas coexist in Blake's poetry. So, and, and these are, uh, it is, it is functional, it is vital, it is live. Uh, so, um, when we look at the, the way in which Blake situates his poetry, it is in the context of, uh, a certain understanding of nature, a certain understanding of the way the world has been created, and, you know, his own struggle with these ideas. And here, I'd like to request Professor Prakash also to kind of, you know, um, share his views on these two very distinct aspects of, uh, Blake's poetry.
No, rightly, you pointed out that poetry before Blake generally is about the city life, about manners, about how should people behave, how, you know, that they should treat one another with some kind of rational discourse built between them. And suddenly, you have a poet who is talking about the angel's eye, who talks about nature, who talks about creation, who talks about things, you know, which are, which are not clearly known in the 18th century. Initially, this would have been very shocking, you know, that people who are engaging themselves with manners in society, suddenly started thinking about clouds, about angels, about things, you know, which were not in the imagination of people at that time. So, that is starting a trend. And the second thing that you say is about Blake not having formal education. So, he's getting his education with the life that he lives, yes. And he meets the common people there. And he, he also etches. And I was particularly struck by the idea that he would write, you know, letters in the, in the reverse manner, so that they could then be put into the publication process or, or that kind of machine that they used at that time. So, he's experimenting with art in, in that, you know, form in which we understand the, the thing, the term, you know, in the, the 20th century. Raymond Williams, for instance, will talk about the processes of art. And he's in the, in the 18th century, using these processes of art in order to understand the world and then to use it for poetic expression. This is something that that is really remarkable. And he will, in fact, start a trend. Now, initially, maybe, as you later on tell us, I think that would, you know, uh, uh, disturb the, the, uh, pattern at that time. And then he would have his own idiom, his own kind of phrase.
Absolutely. This is what, you know, surprises us. And this is what also excites, excites our imagination. Imagination. And this word is so very important, in a sense, to the Romantic Poets. But the way, uh, Blake actually, uh, is also looking at imagination, it is really unbounded in that sense. It doesn't have the kind of boundaries. In, in fact, that, you know, one may say that later Romantics, in a sense, kind of look at it differently. But it's, it's, you know, starting from, uh, thinking about, let's say, you know, the way the world itself is created, to talk not about a world that exists somewhere else, but to talk about the world of which he is a part. And his sketches, his poetry, as you rightly pointed out, they are all a part of the observant eye that actually looks at things around him, and he records these things through his imagination. I was also thinking, you know, as you were speaking about it, that perhaps in one sense, the world is resettling, and, and, it's, you know, readjusting with the previous century, where people talked about, you know, biblical themes and all that. So, this person starts it all over again in the, in the latter half of the, of the 18th century. In fact, he actually goes back to the Elizabethans and, you know, Milton, later, to actually, uh, kind of, you know, uh, uh, look at, uh, certain ideas that express the kind of, if I may use this word, the myth that Blake's imagination creates in his poetry. Myth would be, uh, looked at with skepticism in, in the 18th century, because they were talking about, you know, a nature of a different kind, human nature, and which has reason and all those things. This person is totally denying the, the existence of reason in, reason in a pure, pure form. So, he's rebuilding a kind of connect with the Elizabethan, as you say, and the, and the 17th century in general, and then is looking forward. He's looking ahead. So, he is that way, taking his eye away from the mundane reality of the, of the time in front of him, and goes back to the recent past, as well as looks towards the future.
Yes. So, um, if he, if he, uh, you know, look at some other works by, uh, Blake, so, for instance, there's, U, you know, another that he writes in, "All Religions Are One." He writes, and he comes up with an argument and then gives a conclusion. So, it's, um, you know, to, the importance part about this is, he talks about, you know, in a sense, different ways of being. So, he says, "The true man is the source, the poetic genius." So, how he's actually looking in different ways of life and then arriving at the conclusion that the true man, in a sense, is the source, the poetic genius. And it's important to understand because Blake is also known for, uh, his, U, you know, the, the mythology that, in a sense, he creates. Blake's imagination and his poetry, for instance, his prophecies about, uh, Europe and America, the two prophecies, in a sense, they, uh, look ahead. Or, uh, the division into the four Zoas and so on. But the important point here is that he might create that structure of the myth, but he does not let it, that does not lose grip on it. It does not kind of escalate and move into another zone, but it remains here. Which is why the individual, you know, we, we value Romantic poetry for the way the individual connects with his world. And it is with Blake, actually, this very, very strong connection between the individual creativity, poetic genius, to use some of the words that Blake uses in, uh, this particular poem, and says that, you know, these need to be, it is, it is man that is the source, in a sense. So, we notice these two things: that on the one hand, the individual is the source of all creativity, and this individual is at all times rooted in nature. And these two blend in a way that make, uh, William Blake, in a sense, an apt precursor to, uh, the, uh, poetry of the Romantic Period. So, um, there are other, U, you know, in these three sections, and he, he writes that, you know, how man is endowed with the power to perceive. But he says that man's perceptions, in a sense, are not bound simply by, uh, the physical being that is going to perceive. And, uh, when he talks about, uh, the physical being that is going to perceive, perceive, um, he means that it is important to use imagination. There is more. He says that man can perceive, you know, that is, that goes beyond the simple organs of perception and what they perceive. So, the term that he uses here for reason is called "ratio." And in that sense, you know, it, it became a kind of a term that, you know, looked down, in a sense, at the whole idea of the mechanical being. So, already, we can see that the idea of imagination has become central. And Blake's structure of thought, in a sense, puts that, uh, you know, forward. So, if I may quote, he says, "He who sees the infinite in all things sees God. He who sees the ratio only, and ratio refers to reason, sees himself only. Therefore, God becomes as we are, that we may become as he is."
So, God here, can you throw some light on this, you know, God on one side, human being on the other, and sometimes God is becoming human, and sometimes human is becoming God? Human is becoming God. So, it's very important, actually, to, uh, kind of, you know, uh, talk about this particular statement at two levels. One is that, if you look at, uh, you know, the distinction that he makes between reason, or ratio, as he calls it, and and imagination, that is one. But God, in this sense, does not function as, uh, an entity. In a sense, of course, he does have the Bible at the back of his mind, and he says that all the knowledge that he has is there in the Old and the New Testament. But God here primarily is the idea, is the idea of perfection, and how man needs to aspire to that idea of perfection. And yet, at the same time, he says that man has the potential of, you know, uh, acquiring that ideal, or acquiring that state of perfection, something that within biblical discourses, you know, um, a process that you move towards. It's not that you acquire it. Therefore, "God becomes as we are, that we may become as he is." So, we may become. So, this idea, this dialogue between man and God, you know, becomes potential here.
How do you interpret the word "potential"? I think the word "potential" here is the whole idea that, of course, you know, there is the biblical fall and so on. But the idea is that man is perfectly equipped, in that sense, to, uh, move towards a higher state of being. Now, this higher state of being is not to move to some other world, but the higher state of being is to remain here and to be a better human being. Which means, we have generally, when we contact with the society of nature, we are using five senses. But there is another thing called imagination, as you say. And this imagination is based on the five senses, but it's something different. It goes beyond that. It goes beyond that. Man has the potential to perceive more than the senses. So, whatever you, whatever we, you know, take as a perception of the senses, that, you know, with imagination also starts looking into the future. This is what is going, it is going to become. That is what his potential is.
Yes. And that is the crux of Romanticism. That's the crux of Romanticism. In fact, if you actually look at, I specifically, you know, refer to this particular statement because it, in a way, beautifully preempts what Keats is going to talk about later in terms of, you know, this idea of primary and secondary imagination. So, I thought that this was particularly valuable for that reason. And you also talked about the limited nature of ratio, as you call it, or rational. Rational is what you see in front of you. But what I see there, it is that which is ultimate. But so far as he's concerned, something hidden is there behind the ratio, the rational, and that is to be captured. And that is through imagination, through, through imagination. And it's, it's interesting because, uh, on the one hand, it's, it's imagination, and there is a kind of sense perception, then there is imagination. But at all times, there is an engagement with the world to which he belongs. And that, you know, in a sense, is something that, you know, Blake doesn't lose sight of in his poetry. First, one has to be human. One has, one, one wants to be aware with oneself. And then one becomes something else. One becomes God, as you say. So, we come from God. We don't know what that we have come from God. But then we realize, and then we go into the future. So, initially, God is everything. Later on, we are in the process of becoming God.
Yes. And, and here, you know, God remains that symbolizes because, Lord, his poetry is, uh, symbolic. So, God here is the idea of the ideal, the, the perfect, in that sense. So, and, and there is, in that sense, a kind of progression, you know, from the individual who can perceive to one who can imagine, and who can also imagine what the ideal is all about. So, um, uh, with this, you know, um, having kind of referred to these primary ideas, uh, we would also now like to, uh, discuss, um, you know, works by Blake that he is really known for, the Songs of Innocence and Songs of Experience. And it's interesting because, uh, these are referred to as songs. And the Songs of Innocence that come, uh, around 1789. Very, very significant because 1789 is also the time of the French Revolution. So, you know, the, the whole, uh, slogan of, uh, Liberty, Fraternity, Equality, that is there. And Blake has actually grown up in this particular atmosphere and is able to kind of, uh, you know, through his imagination, through these ideas that he puts forth, he's able to kind of weave that in his, uh, poetry. So, um, and the, the, the next, uh, important thing in that sense is, uh, the image of the child. And the image of the child is very, very important here. Because when we look at the Songs of Innocence, and even when one moves on to the Songs of Experience, the image of the child becomes, uh, valuable and becomes symbolic, in a sense, you know, if he can talk about this ideal of perfection, it is there in the image of the child. And the child is, however, situated in a specific kind of world where there is change, where things are changing. So, what is the impact of that, in a sense, in the child? And this is something that we are going to take up in our discussion about Songs of Innocence and Songs of Experience. So, um, uh, the child, you know, encapsulates sensitivity, purity, and so on. And, uh, we look at, uh, you know, uh, poems like, for instance, "The Lamb" in Songs of Innocence, that is followed by "The Tyger" in Songs of Experience. Or, we have, uh, you know, "The Little Black Boy" in, uh, the Songs of Innocence. So, for instance, here too, um, in "The Little Black Boy," and again, I must reiterate that all these poems actually, the illustrations are available easily. So, all these poems should actually be read along with the illustrations, because they, um, uh, in a sense, what Blake is doing is that, here is a poet, um, we interpret from our point of view, uh, today, and try to understand the way he was situated in the Romantic, uh, you know, in the pre-Romantic period. But, um, his poetry, in a sense, uh, makes its way into the illustrations, and the illustrations make their way back into the poem and enrich, uh, you know, in a sense, our understanding of what, uh, Blake is really trying to say. So, um, and I, I would also, uh, kind of refer to some of these illustrations. So, um, when we look at a poem like "The Lamb," he begins with a question and poses the question. The first stanza itself, he says, "Little Lamb, who made thee? Dost thou know who made thee? Gave thee life, and bid thee feed, By the stream and o'er the mead; Gave thee clothing of delight, Softest clothing, woolly bright; Gave thee such a tender voice, Making, methinks, thy brother's joy. Little Lamb, who made thee? Dost thou know who made thee?" And he's called by thy name. He is meek and he is mild. He became a little child. I a child and thou a lamb. We are called by his name. And, uh, the association between the, the child and that, um, you know, uh, idea of perfection, this, this is a kind of mediatory process that happens here. So, U, when we, in a sense, again, uh, look at, uh, you know, the illustrations here, and we look at, uh, the illustrations, uh, of the time, in, uh, you know, the Songs of Experience, there is a distinct difference. So, when we, uh, look at this, "Does thou know who made thee, Gave thee life and bid thee feed, By the stream and over the mead? Gave thee clothing of delight, Softest clothing, woolly bright? Gave thee such a tender voice, Making, methinks, thy brother's joy. Little Lamb, who made thee? Dost thou know who made thee?" So, it goes on in this tone. And then again, in the next, uh, stanza, "A little lamb, I'll tell thee, I'll tell thee. He is called by thy name, For he calls himself a lamb." Now, when we actually look at the parallel poem in Songs of Experience, which is, uh, you know, "The Tyger. Tyger Tyger, burning bright, In the forests of the night; What immortal hand or eye, Could frame thy fearful symmetry?" In what distant deeps or skies, Burnt the fire of thine eyes? So, where Lamb signifies innocence, Tyger signifies fierceness. And this is what leads, uh, the poet, Blake, to ask, "What immortal hand or eye, Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?" And, uh, uh, it is, uh, this that kind of, uh, you know, uh, when we look at the illustrations, the illustrations are very, very interesting. And we must compare the two illustrations, one of the Lamb and the other of the Tyger. Now, when we look at the Lamb illustration that accompanies the poem, so there are a lot of these, you know, uh, sheep and lambs around, and there is a little boy who's interacting freely. And, you know, the, the boy is, uh, not really, it's a little boy, it's not really wearing anything. So, the boy is in nature. And there, of course, trees around. And this idea of bonding and being, uh, you know, a part of, uh, nature and the world that he is in, is, uh, very clear in this illustration. And then again, we have the illustration of, uh, the Tyger. And the Tyger is shown to be, of course, majestic, and, uh, darker colors have been used in the case of the Tyger. And, uh, the fierceness of the Tyger is, where there is a gentleness that comes forth in, uh, the case of, uh, the Lamb. In the case of the Tyger, there is a kind of fierceness brought out through dark color. And the kind of greenery that is there in the Lamb is something that cannot be seen in the Tyger.
I'm only guessing, you know, that the child that he imagines would be a child from the village. Yes. Would be a child who would be very, very close to the trees, would be very, very close to the forest. And this child later on will turn into, as you, as you say, into the kind of tiger. And, and we'll have that symmetry. So, this child has nothing to do with the child in the village in the surroundings, not very well kept. Innocence, in a sense, means that the person is untouched by the, the urban, the, the, uh, you know, uh, city kind of breeding and all that. The interesting part in terms of the illustration is that both the Lamb and the Tyger are, I guess, uh, you know, it's because the time to which, time period to which they belong, both are portrayed in the pastoral. Yes. But, um, you know, where, in the case of the Lamb, as I pointed out, that, you know, there is a nice little hut in the background, around, and there, there is a little bit of greenery, and there are sheep that are grazing, and there is this little boy around. There's no market, there's no shop, there's no London. It's, it's only a small village where there's a hut, where there are forests next to it. Yes. And when we look at the other illustration, then, um, there's just this, in the background, there is, there's no hut, but there is this very solid bark of a tree, and the Tiger in front. And as I said, that, you know, portrayed, colored, you know, very dark color, colors are used. So, there is a kind of gentleness that comes through in the illustration of the Lamb, and in the poem, of course, uh, and there is a kind of fierceness. In fact, if you analyze each poem, there is a very distinct quality that each poem will will have. And so the gentleness is, in a sense, offset in Songs of Experience by a kind of fierceness, which of course, you know, famous. So, in fact, they are not opposites. Gentleness and fierceness. One is the, one is evolved from the other. Other. And, and fierceness is pure, and gentleness also is pure. So, you are not afraid of the first, but definitely, you, you are inspired by the second. Yes. And if, if something goes or right, something goes astray, and there is a kind of departure from the, from the child, then it becomes fierce. And anyway, the law of nature is broken, and nature wants to get back to the original pattern through the tiger, through the tiger.
Yes. So, um, when, you know, again, then there are these different ways in which this is interpreted, you know, U, some would want to interpret this in terms of contraries, and some would want to interpret it in terms of a kind of, um, you know, uh, change that is expressed. Let's say, in these lines, "When the stars threw down their spears, And watered heaven with their tears: Did he smile his work to see? Did he who made the Lamb make thee?" "Tyger Tyger, burning bright, In the forests of the night: What immortal hand or eye, Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?" So, the first stanza has the word "what immortal hand or eye could frame thy fearful symmetry?" The last stanza has "what immortal hand or eye dare frame thy fearful symmetry?" So, the answer to both the question is yes. Yes. It's the same hand which created the child and, and, and the fierce, and tiger, fierce tiger. So, there is this kind of, it inspires, in that sense, a, and, u, you know, this, this element of, uh, looking at the tiger in, in, you know, through all is very, very, uh, significant. So, connecting thread is the creator. The creator has created the child in terms of innocence, and the same creator later on extended the scope of the child to the tiger, tiger. So, this is your answer. U, and, U, I think I would also say that the two poems should be read together. I think each poem of the Songs of Innocence should actually be read in tandem with Songs of Experience, because the idea is not to look at one is good and the other is bad, but to look at social processes and the way the direction in which they are heading, and what the poet is really speaking, trying to say about the world in which he himself is living. I think a classic example here would be the poem "The Holy Thursday." Now, the same, this poem, uh, in this title exists both in Songs of Innocence and Songs of, uh, Experience. The same poem, the same title, "Holy Thursday." "Holy Thursday." And it's, it refers to the day when the orphans of London, they march to the church, led by the beadles. And I mean, in terms of biblical discourse, of course, this is the day of Ascension. So, if we just, uh, you know, kind of observe, uh, the illustrations, particularly, uh, in, in "Holy Thursday" in the Songs of Innocence, we can see, uh, you know, people moving together in groups of, uh, in, in, in twos, actually. And there is harmony, there is a sense of, uh, order, there is, um, you know, um, u, a sense of harmony and organization, togetherness. And of course, you know, referring to the whole idea that the orphans were actually made to walk to the church together, and in twos. Orphans. Yes. From London. And then, however, "Holy Thursday" in the Songs of Experience is extremely dark. The colors darken. There is, it's like, uh, there is a lot of alienation. It's, um, the, the scene is very, very dismal. And if you look at the tone that is used in these two poems, I think that will really explain the, the way in which we are supposed to actually look at Songs of Innocence and Songs of Experience. And interestingly, both are songs, not simply poems. And the, the, the fact that, you know, they possess a certain kind of lyrical quality to them. So, I'll just read a few lines from the Songs of Innocence. "Twas on a Holy Thursday, their innocent faces clean, The children walking two and two, in red, and blue, and green. Green-headed beadles walked before, With wands as white as snow, Till into the high dome of Paul's, They like tames as water flow. O, what, what a multitude they seemed, These flowers of London Town!" And, and it goes on in this tone. But on the other hand, when you look at, uh, uh, the, the tone that is used in Songs of Experience, it really shows the real world in which these, uh, children are living. So, it goes like this: "Is this a holy thing to see, In a rich and fruitful land: Babes reduced to misery, Fed with cold and usurous hand? Is that trembling cry a song? Can it be a song of joy? And so many children poor? It is a land of poverty; And their sun does never shine, And their fields are bleak and bare, And their ways are filled with thorns. It is eternal winter there. For wherever the sun does shine, And wherever the rain does fall, Babe can never hunger there, Nor poverty the mind of all." So, the tone is very, very different. So, we have the sense of what is the ideal world, what is, what is this idea of perfection. And, so, of course, where "The Little Black Boy" looks at the sun and says that, you know, the mother has taught him that it's, it's the son. And similarly, when we look at "Holy Thursday" in terms of the Songs of Experience, and the way it is such a sharp comment on, uh, the really, really pathetic conditions in which these children are living. It's a far cry, in a sense, from that ideal where they're all moving and going to church together. And of course, here, where the sun never shines for them, their fields are bleak, and they are bare, their ways are filled with thorns. So, um, and wherever the sun shines, wherever the rain fall, uh, does fall, the babes cannot be hungry there. So, um, uh, you know, I think these two, uh, poems should be again read together.
I would like to raise a question in this case because the way you have read it, it's very effective. What I see is that in, in the first poem, the poem that, you know, in the, in the Songs of Innocence, uh, there's a kind of nature, there's a kind of bounty. Yes. Everybody's properly fed, they are all feeling comfortable, and they enjoy themselves. But then something happens, and it happens in spite of the ideal, you know, there. And poverty has come, inequality has come, and clouds have come, and darkness. All these things, and that brightness is gone. Yes. So, in a way, he's tracing the development or evolution of equality into inequality. And in the second, there is a kind of poverty, and that's why God is angry. That's why the ideal is getting more and more far away. And therefore, he's asking for some kind of intervention. So, can it be read that way?
I would read it that way. I would read it that way. That, you know, I mean, and "Holy Thursday" in that sense is a classic example because on the one hand, there is the sense of harmony. Even in the illustrations, one can see how they are, you know, uh, holding hands and walking in twos. So, U, where the written matter is there, uh, in the center, there are these two panels, one on the top, one at the bottom of the illustration. And in one, they are headed in one direction, and the panel on the top, they are headed in the other direction, almost kind of encircling the, the poem at the center. But when we look at the other one, that is an extremely, it, it gives us a very, very, uh, bleak picture of the way things are in the society, and how these, uh, children are, in a sense, being treated. So, U, you know, the, the, uh, the colors that are used are very, very dark. At one glance, for instance, if I were to say, what are the colors that are used for, let's say, "Holy Thursday" and Songs of Experience, it would be a lot of black with red, and just some figures emerging from that.
One more question I would like to ask from you, and that question will relate to the idea of sadness, pessimism, or the idea of anger and activism. You know, in one case, his poetry can be perhaps a statement of depression, of melancholy. In the other case, it's, it's a statement of coming in and setting things right, and there's a kind of positive intervention there. So, this thing, what pessimism or optimism?
So far as Blake is concerned, I would say optimism, not pessimism. Because if he had to do that, I think the Songs of Innocence would not be there. It would just be poetry that offers a very, very sharp comment on the world that is there around him. I think also, you know, in a sense, pitching it in the year in which it comes, keeping in mind what the events to the French Revolution. So, I think, um, he has, that is the ideal, that is the idea of perfection that he has, where there is liberty and fraternity and equality for all, not for a few. And how, uh, you know, there is a movement, in a sense, that's away from that ideal, and that is what he captures in the Songs of Experience. But not to kind of abandon it there, but to go back to that phase where equality will prevail. And this is corroborated by, uh, you know, the idea of fierceness and the idea of anger. Anger can never, Blake, he's not accepting it. In fact, he's thinking of setting it right, bringing back the pattern that existed when there was innocence, when there was innocence. In fact, even in "Holy Thursday," which is in, in Songs of Experience, which is otherwise a very, very sharp critique of, you know, the immediate world, but the, I think we need to just analyze the last stanza a little carefully. So, after having said that, you know, "it is eternal winter there," he writes, "For wherever the sun does shine, And wherever the rain does fall, Babe can never hunger there, Nor poverty the mind of all." So, he's ending on this note. It is certainly optimistic because he's reminding us that this is a possibility, that there is a place where the sun shines and where the rain does fall, and it is in, in that manner that we should actually, uh, you know, look at this particular poem.
Again, a very important, uh, uh, poem that belongs to both, uh, you know, the Songs of Innocence and Songs of Experience is "The Chimney Sweeper." So, if you look at "The Chimney Sweeper" again, um, you know, the, the first, uh, one, which is, uh, where he says, "When my mother died I was very young, And my father sold me while yet my tongue, Could scarcely cry, 'Weep! weep! weep! weep!' So your chimneys I sweep, and in suit I sleep." So, uh, you know, the, the image here, this is Songs of Innocence. It's not Songs of Experience. Now, this very disturbing stanza, in fact, that's one thing that we should be, uh, conscious of when we read Blake, that when he writes in the Songs of Innocence, he does leave those disturbing elements there. It's not as if he doesn't. But these disturbing elements are not the primary, uh, you know, thrust of the poem. The primary aim, in that sense, is one of joy, is one of togetherness, is one of harmony, or celebration, or celebration, singing. Yes. So, such a disturbing stanza as this is followed by a dream. You know, and he says that, "As Tom Doe, he was sleeping, he had such a sight, That thousands of sweepers, Dick, Joe, Ned, and Jack, Were all of them locked up in coffins of black. And by came an angel who had a bright key, And he opened the coffins and set them all free." And so they all, uh, kind of, you know, after that, there is the celebration, and it's joyous, and Tom awoke, and, you know, they, they get up in the dark. So, "If all do their duty, they need not fear harm." So, you know, if, if there is a problem, the idea is that it can be, uh, resolved, as, as well. And again, when we look at, uh, "The Chimney Sweeper," however, in the context of, um, you know, the Songs of Experience, it is, the image of a boy that's, very, very lonely. And if you look at the illustration, where there are these many children together in the illustration for Songs of Experience, there is this one boy. And the primary, U, you know, colors that I used here are gray and black. So, the, the colors that I used in Songs of Innocence are very different from the way, uh, "The Chimney Sweeper" of the Songs of Experience emerges. So, if you look at this also, he's, he writes, "A little black thing among the snow, Crying 'Weep! weep!' in notes of woe. Where are the father and mother? Say they are both gone up to the church to pray." So, here, um, you know, the, the child is left alone. The loneliness of the child, the alienation of the child. And so, in the last stanza, again, here, he says, "And because I am happy, and dance and sing, They think they have done me no injury, And are gone to praise God and his priest and king, Who make up a heaven of our misery." So, which is why I said that when we look at God, this is experience. Experience. This is experience. And, which is why I said that God here is the idea of perfection. And in this particular poem, for instance, Blake is, uh, critical, in a sense, of, uh, you know, the, the priest and the king. And he says that they are gone to, and are gone to praise God, his priest, and his priest and king, who make up a heaven of our misery. So, these are telling lines. And they show the answer. There is the kind of resolution. The resolution is the sense of doing your duty and deriving strength from God. Yes. Oh, and creator, that matter. Ideal. That's the ideal. So, the idea, and, and that ideal, if he, if he, kind of, look back, in a sense, from Songs of Experience, if you look back to Songs of Innocence, and try to, uh, imagine what this ideal would be, it would be an ideal that is, uh, where there is harmony, where there is nature, where the child is happy. And that is the ideal. So, the child, in a sense, the image of the child, in a sense, connects with that idea of perfection. So, the world is on the even keel, that the world is balanced, only when the child is happy, only when the child. So, the child is a kind of barometer, yes, of, of, of the happiness, of, of the normal healthy state of affairs. Yes. So, that's the ideal. That's the ideal. In fact, one is, you know, uh, reminded totally of Milton, somehow, in the way the whole understanding, the biblical understanding of things is there. So, for instance, U, I'd just like to share, uh, the introduction to the Songs of Experience, and, which is followed by "The Earth's Answer." So, and in the, the introduction to the Songs of Experience, he introduces The Bard, "Who present, past, and future sees, Whose ears have heard the holy word, That walked among the ancient trees," and, and calling the lapsed soul. So, the.
The whole idea of the Fallen soul is there, and weeping in the evening due that might control the starry pole. And, uh, it ends with "Turn away no more, why will thou turn away? The starry floor, the watery shore is given thee till the break of day."
And the Earth answers, "Uh, uh, that there is, uh, the next, the next poem is called The Earth's Answer." And Earth responds by raising her head from, uh, the darkness. And, um, uh, the, the description of, of Earth in that sense is very, very disturbing. So, um, he writes, "Her light fled, stony dread, and her locks covered with great despair." So the, the image of Earth here is extremely disturbing. And, uh, because this is coming later, you know, it's around 1793, so, you know, the euphoria in a sense of the French Revolution, uh, is now, uh, kind of changing. The mood is changing. And Blake is in a sense disturbed by what is happening, but wants to also look back to see, uh, and to not give up, uh, to not forget what the ideal is.
So, um, and again, this stone can be seen, uh, well enough in The Earth's Answer, because the Earth then goes on to say, um, "Break this heavy chain." The poem ends on this note: "Break this heavy chain that does freeze my bones around selfish Wayne, eternal bane, that free love with bondage bound." So free love is what we have to aspire for, and bondage, uh, has to be resisted. And, uh, I mean, it's this is very, these are important, uh, lines because even if you look at, uh, the poem, The Little Black Boy, for instance, in Songs of Innocence, so we know that, you know, he's talking about the black boy, and this is the time that, uh, you know, in a sense, um, the whole idea of the abolition of slavery and so on is going to come, uh, a little later, in terms of, uh, you know, the historical time period.
So Earth's, uh, response here is very important. Even though it, the poem begins by describing the Earth in a very, very disturbing manner, you know, with, uh, stony as dread, locks covered with despair, it ends on a kind of declaration. The declaration is, "Break this heavy chain." So these bonds need to be broken, and the whole idea is of establishing free love.
So, um, here too, I would request Professor, actually, um, lots of questions are occurring to me. And one important question is that it's a different kind of Christianity where there's no emphasis on worship, there's no emphasis on giving a sermon, there's no emphasis on interpreting the world according to the scripture. In fact, innocence is not the idea of Christianity in the sense in which we know the term. Yes, this is, you use the word pagan earlier. This is a kind of paganism. You start with nature, you have gods there, you have the holy, you have the child there, you have trees there, and then distortion occurs. And after distortion, one goes back to it. So there are lions, there are tigers, there are children, there are lambs, all of them are there. So I would say that this is not Christianity of the kind that existed in England at the time. So that it's very radical and revolutionary. In fact, he's very critical of the kind of Christianity and the way it, uh, existed.
I think if you just look at, uh, The Chimney Sweeper, and, you know, it's quite clear that he's extremely critical, uh, when he says that, you know, um, uh, "Where are, when he's the, the question asked is, where are the father and mother?" "Say, they have gone up to church to pray." The idea is that, you know, this boy who's a chimney sweeper is, is left alone, and, uh, the parents are probably not even there, or if they've gone to church to, uh, pray. He says, "I'm happy and dance and sing. They think they have done me no injury." So, you know, he's, he's totally critical of, uh, you know, this whole idea of religion and the way it exists, and pleasure, uh, you know, love, the kind of alliance between people, etc., that might be considered sin by, by the institutionalized, you know, religion and, and Christianity. He's talking about freedom. He's talking about liberation. He's not talking about that kind of discipline which, which came later, you know, in the form of rituals. He's against rituals. It seems he's totally against rituals.
And, and this declaration, "Break this heavy chain," he understands that this is not an easy chain to break. It is a heavy chain to break, but it needs to be broken. Yes. And I think that that declaration is extremely significant. I think this is the crux of Romanticism. Yes, Romanticism is breaking free, both from institutions and and and from the city, and it's going in the direction of freedom. So now Wordsworth will take from here, will take from here, and then it will go into the social direction. Here it is nature, and here is the ideal. And from there, people will go towards a kind of civilization where there will be problems, and then, you know, there will be melancholy because this kind of a thing is not possible in the 19th century. In the 19th century, the key is melancholy. But this man is not. This man is not. And in fact, a lot of, uh, what, you know, the, the Romantic poets are going to be kind of, uh, the, in a sense, if I use the word tropes that they are going to use in their poetry is something that is already prefigured, uh, in Blake's poetry. It's all already there.
So this concern with nature, this concern with the idea of perfection, this idea of, and the looking at the illustrations, one thing is very clear, and as you also pointed out, that all these bring to mind images from pastoral life, from rural life, and these are images that are, um, uh, in a sense, um, you know, of course, of harmony, but even where they are not, this is where this is what he's observing around him. This is the world that he's looking at, and he's capturing it. So this idea of the poet actually engaging with, uh, the immediate surrounding is very, very important. Much as this is a time when England has undergone tremendous change, and the idea of the city has, uh, you know, uh, come into being. So, uh, you know, technology, um, and, uh, the, the whole structure of England itself undergoing a kind of change towards the end of the 18th century becomes extremely important here, where most of the depictions that, uh, Blake is in a sense kind of, uh, putting forth are from the, uh, rural scenario.
And because we are now drawing close to the, to the end of the lecture, so just one small question at the end, what do you say, uh, regarding the role of the paintings and the etchings in the understanding of Blake's poetry? Because you have used, you directly referred to the colors that he's using, the lines that he's using, the figures that he presents. So what is the, you mean poetry and the sketches and and paintings have to be kept together to understand him in full? Actually, the poems are, these are plates, and the poem is written on the plate. Oh, and it is also illustrated. So, for instance, if it's "The Little Black Boy," that it'll run into two plates. So when you move from one plate to the other, and first couple of stanzas in plate one, and then in plate two, so something else is happening in plate two. So they, they need to be, uh, read like that. And, um, uh, because that would, in a sense, enrich our understanding. So where the illustrations read into the poetry, the poetry, uh, adds to the illustration. It's, it's like working together and, in a sense, enriches our own understanding. I'm reminded of, you know, some artists coming forth in the early 19th century who were, you know, particularly doing these sketches and and they always, you know, went by the along along with the poetry that was printed on the page. So I think the trend starts with him. The trend starts with him. And, you know, so if we look at to, you know, kind of, uh, sum this up, so Blake needs to be understood in in this true spirit, in a sense of, you know, what we are going to later understand as Romanticism, and the idea of people speaking to each other, communication, harmony, idea of perfection. These are important. And again, I think the beauty lies not simply in the illustrations, but also this whole idea of Songs of Innocence and Songs of Experience, how there is a kind of dialogue that he is creating within his own poetry.
Okay, then we, we end this lecture with, with the two, three sentences that you can use to describe Blake's contribution to English poetry. What, what would you say? So, um, he gives us a, a complete view of the struggle of both, uh, the individual and the poet, the contrary states, uh, of existence. And these need not just be two, but the different contrary states of existence that exist in the society, existed in the society at the time, are captured in his poetry. And in terms of writing, Blake gives a distinct, sharp turn to the way poetry is to be written and imagined, and of course, read.
So friends, with this conclusion by Dr. P. Nagal, we come to the end of the lecture. And in the lecture, what he has done is he has, uh, you know, presented Blake in a kind of, you know, a dynamic manner where contraries meet, when some kind of resolution is suggested. So Blake belongs to the 18th century, but he always looks towards the 19th century. And the potential and the actuality, so far as he's concerned, are inseparable. So this, this kind of a positive, you know, conclusion comes out of what Dr. P. Nagal has analyzed in, in terms of Blake's poetry. And I think we have benefited a lot from this. And we will have more lectures of this kind under the series that we are running. And till then, goodbye.
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