Transcription
Okay. Count me in. Oh, we're in. Hello everyone and welcome back at the surprise. You never know what we're going to do. Hey everybody, good to see you. Happy Friday. Happy Friday, Bob. How you doing? Doing well. Doing well. Counting right in. Counting Yeah, we count in. Our count in is we've started. So, it's great to see you all. If you are here live, so happy to have you along with us to Friday free-for-all. So, if you've got questions, send them our way. We will be looking through as we have been in past weeks. We're going to start with some news stories. Yeah, please. We have a question that came in that I think is it's connected to your advisor's heart. So, we're going to talk about that.
Okay. And then any questions that you have. So, if you are here with us live, happy to have you along. Send in a question, send in a comment. Happy to have you here for the ride. Can I can I just say I really enjoyed Yeah, I want to say something.
No, you can't say anything. I enjoyed being a part of Bart Ehrman's uh new insights into the Hebrew Bible Yeah. uh conference. That was a really good online conference and anybody who is here uh who maybe have been over there. If you weren't part of it, uh you can still go over uh and uh check that out. I think the all of those lectures are available. You can watch them on replay?
Can watch them on replay, but go over and be a part uh and check out uh new insights into the Hebrew Bible uh over on Bart Ehrman's uh We'll put a link to it in the description. So, there will be Yeah, you did you did a session on Genesis. Yeah, well, it was the archaeology of Genesis. It was the um but uh Dan McClellan was the keynote speaker, did a great job. There were lots of good scholars there. So, go over and check that out uh in replay and and uh but it was it was nice to be a part of that uh and uh look forward to doing more with them. Yeah, we'll put a link to that as always. Throughout this, things will come up um and I will put links to these things in the description after. So, if I have Let me also just say, if I have forgotten to put the link to something that I mentioned in a past video, leave it in the comments for me because I found out last week that there is a 5,000 character limit on the description because all of the books that we were talking about in last week's live. So, there is a cap. 5,000 characters is the max. So, they can't go on eternally, but I will put a link to this uh down in the description there. And I'll put links to the news stories after we go over them down in there.
And much love to all the senior college folks that came out and were part of the senior college course that we did out the Coralville uh Center for Performing Arts. Um thank you for coming to that. Um always happy to do local things here in Iowa City uh for anyone interested in coming out and listening to me. Babylon Not Babylon, but you know Well, let's >> ramble on. So, let's jump to Speaking of Babylon. Well, not quite Babylon, but we're going to talk about some ancient Sumerian teeth really quick. So, two news stories for you this week. One of them um more ordinary people. Happy Happy to look at the lives of non-elite people for a second. And then we will jump to a story that is about the life of an elite individual. So, the first one is about a zinc isotope analysis of some teeth that are coming from southern Mesopotamia. And you might be wondering to yourself why do we care about zinc isotope analysis, whatever that is. I don't know how that works, but they did it. They say they did it. It makes sense. They have their data. That's not my lane. Well, they care about it because they used this to look at the tooth enamel. Because the enamel with the zinc isotope allows us to get an understanding of what they were eating because a lot of materials degrade. And what do we know about what people ate or didn't eat? We've talked about this in a past video where you kind of have what you may have been getting eaten by like elite people
Mhm. when they record recipes, but everybody else, you're kind of left to your own devices. So, they were looking at a series of graves from 2900 to 2350 BCE that they think were non-elite because they lacked the type of grave goods that you would expect in elite burials. And what they found was unsurprisingly here, a high cereal element in the diet. Lots of wheats, lots of barleys being consumed. It looks like they did have limited access to animal protein, namely pork. But surprisingly, no fish. Really?
Not find evidence of of fish, either marine or fresh water. So, no access to that. Another part of this that was I think a surprising twist I didn't expect at the end was that they were able to better identify patterns of breastfeeding and weaning. Because zinc and oxygen values in teeth formed during breastfeeding were higher than in teeth formed after weaning. And so, looking at the teeth that they had, they could see that exclusive breastfeeding may have lasted to about half of a year. And weaning seems to have been completed between 2.3 and 3 years, which does line up with wet nurse contracts that they have from the region. So, you're able to look at individual's teeth to say, can we see when the breastfeeding process continued, when it ended, and when weaning took place. So, lots of little fun ways that surprising things can come in to give you like it's just a glimpse, but some daily life stuff.
But so, that's you know, that's what archaeology is supposed to do is to tell you what life was like with the people. Yeah.
You know, we always concentrate on focus on palaces and gold and things, but what was life like for the people and what can it tell us about and how especially how it compares to life today.
They liked bread. Yeah, well, don't we all? Well, that's that's something we've talked about before. I think we have an interview with Cynthia about this about bread that like I mean, we eat bread and bread has been a staple of diets for so long, but you know, like some people I think Nathan MacDonald estimates 60 to 70% of your caloric intake would have been from grains, would have been from cereals. It's just it's what you ate. So, low animal protein is not totally surprising. The lack of fish, kind of surprising. Yeah, I think
No No difference between male and female teeth. How far the Is this Sumeria? How about how far
See. They were at I would think. But then again, if They Yeah, they had proximity to a shoreline and fresh water.
Fish is probably part of the industry.
Yeah, so the study focused on Abu Tabara. It was about 30 km from the shoreline of the Gulf
Probably part of part of the industry. The fishing There was probably an active fishing and if you're not if you're not if you're
You said I like bread. I've just got Jeremy Smoke in my head who that was his that was his go-to, but anyways. Uh long story, other story. Yes, Becca, it turns out children are people, too. But well, depending on the text you read at what point in time, which was something that came up in the story last week regarding the burials at Azekah. Why are they interred here? Are they through the weaning process? Are they not? How does this line up? So, again, looking at this broader thing. We're going to be talking to someone in the coming weeks about some of this death and burial process with children as well cuz it's a it's an area that hasn't been looked at a ton. And uh yeah, as in and thanks for for bringing that up. I know you guys have been talking about it. Uh I wrote about it in my Babylon chapter in cities. Uh I dug that. Yeah. That was my
Now, you see him. Uh that was um that was a cistern that it took me two seasons to to go down and dig through. And um when we started finding those children uh and their remains, that's when we kicked everybody else out of that cistern. And um I dug that alone because we didn't want anybody else have to go through the trauma or to have to have, you know, bear the responsibility of digging through those.
Well, and the through those remains. process of dealing with human remains when you're excavating is is always something that changes the flow. I mean, I'm pretty sure a book for a second. Um the five-minute archaeologist in the southern Levant. They have a chapter in here about what happens when you find cuz it's different. Is it an ancient burial? Is it a modern burial? How can we tell? What do we do with this? And the processes um aren't always the same. But it is something that really Yeah, changes that dynamic. And as we talked about the personal side, it really emphasizes there are people behind these things.
Yeah. And you know, in in in my book, I talk about I had little kids at the time. And so, separating the scientific part of it of doing your analysis from the personal side of it of what if this were my kids? What what what what what were they feeling? Were they feeling what I felt, you know, digging through these um and then every once in a while somebody shouting down through the top of the cistern, "Hey, how's it going?" And I'm just, you know, uh working through this. Um and then, you know, being respectful of all the of all the remains and and then getting down to the bottom of that. But it was good to see that article come out. I'm glad they published it uh and I'm glad they um have the conclusions uh that they did because it's a it's a way of honoring the those peoples who were uh who that's where they ended up. Mhm. Uh um so, it's it's it's one way to to honor those remains. And I'm glad they I'm glad Professor Lipschutz and and those um uh published that article. Yeah. So, we'll put I'll put the link to that one uh in the description as well. And we talked about it in last week's and we'll be talking about a little bit more. Uh Christian Gerhards is going to come on and we're going to talk a little bit about
Death and burial, children. It's one of those What do we know? What don't we know? things. So, keep an eye out for that in the future as well. Changing gears slightly from non-elite individuals to very elite individuals, you might have seen a news story this last week about a Roman stele that was found. Um they were in the process of working on the Karnak Temple complex. Now, this is a story that is coming out now, but the work itself was between 2022 and 2025. So, you know, new stories can take a while in archaeology to come forward. So, they were doing a reassembly and restoration of the gate of the wall of King Ramses III in the northern area. In the process of doing this, because they're disassembling things, they found a a sandstone stele dated to the reign of Roman Emperor Tiberius. And so, it was found in layers associated with the layer Roman and Byzantine periods. So, on the one hand, they were interested for what does this tell us about the ongoing use and reuse and adaptation. This is something they're learning more about in this region. Um but it also shows him standing in front of the Theban Triad of Amun-Ra, Mut, and Khonsu. So, you can see, if you look at this, right, it is the Roman use of Egyptian images in the way that you might expect. And then it has hieroglyphic text on it as well. So, an interesting, you know, it's a continuity of cult in this space, but adapting in new individuals. New characters come into play into the old systems. Yeah. And and incorporating the Roman emperor as part of these temples. Um one for one, doing this in Egypt, portrait portrait projecting them, portraying them as Egyptian. Um you also note that there is another, this is now two, right? Cuz there's another very famous um inscription that was discovered with a reference to Tiberius uh up the coast a little bit, which is the Pilate inscription. So, it was also found in reuse up there in Caesarea Maritima. And so, you've got these people building uh temples. It was in Augustaion, right? Uh temples to Tiberius to honor uh the the emperor. Um and they're then they fall down and they get put into reuse, but you see it here now in Egypt being incorporated into an Egyptian style. So, uh depending on where the emperor is being honored, they're incorporating the local style. Um and it's it's a good discovery, and I can't wait to go to go see this. Yeah, it'll be it'll be interesting to see what else they find. They they said that this is one of a series of discoveries. They found a paved way in the area as well that just is expanding the understanding of how the site changed and was adapted over time. Which is one of those things you look at these sites that are so big, they feel like they they feel like what they wanted them to feel like, permanent, eternal. Like this is this thing that's been here. And yet, when we look, you can see the little ways that it's changed over time and time and it's been adapted. So, those two news stories will be linked down in the description for you should you want to read a little bit about that. We also have the weekly news shorts, so you can stay tuned. Mary Kate on Mondays brings you a short of, you know, the quick snap of something that was in the news, but some of these, you know, at times need a little bit more conversation around them, so we'll bring them into the live. Again, if you are here live, happy to have you along. I see some familiar names in there. Scott, Bella, Andy, great to see you. If you are here for the first time in a live, throw a question in. Happy to hear from you here on the live chat. But, if you are watching on replay, don't worry. I go back and I check the comments from replays, so I have one comment from that before we jump to anything in the live. So, throw things into the live chat now, and we will turn to those in a second. The submitted question, previously submitted question, Bob, I read this one and I went, this sounds like something your advisor would be very interested in talking about, the one Mr. Schniedewind. So, they said they remember encountering an argument. Um they don't exactly remember who it is. They think it might have been Israel Finkelstein, but they're not sure. That First Temple Judah exhibited a relatively high level of literacy, maybe more than the northern kingdom of Israel. If this is accurate, do we have any elaboration on the evidence for literacy levels in this period? Like, how do you tell?
And how does this compare either between the northern and southern kingdom and neighboring populations? So, a lot of things to break down. So, can we start maybe at the top to say um how do we tell what literacy looks like in the ancient world? Uh good question. By the way, this is an incredibly popular topic. Not only has Bill Schniedewind written about this recently. He's I think he's got like two more books
He's got a number of things coming out. Seth Sanders has been writing about this. Um Alice Mandel's working Alice Alice is working at this in John Hopkins Johns Hopkins.
Um so, you know, we we hear a lot about this in Judaism because it's always called the the religion of the book. It's the people of the book. And in the question that gets debated is, well, how far back does that literacy go? Was it just priests in exile writing down this, you know, concocting this or, you know, redacting this religion? How how early does this literacy actually go? Um And as you expect, everyone agrees. Right. No, no, there's a there's a debate. There's there's there's a debate. Um the the the script, the writing, anybody who's taken, you know, elementary Hebrew, biblical Hebrew, you'll go back and you'll you'll know that the it breaks, you know, archaic biblical Hebrew, standard biblical Hebrew, late biblical Hebrew, and then, you know, so you you know that the language evolves. But again, was that just the scribes or could an ordinary person read this? One of the pieces of evidence that gets pointed to a lot, um Professor Schniedewind certainly pointed to it a lot, was uh one of the letters from Lachish, Lakish, or whatever you want to pronounce it. Um especially the third letter, um which appears to be a letter written by uh a soldier. Um and so, we call it the letter of the literate soldier. And he the what's what's interesting about the letter is he's essentially complaining um that uh somebody yelled at him or mocked him, basically, for not being able to read. You know, I said, "Can't can't you read this? Go get a scribe." And this guy gets upset that he says, "No one has ever had to read to me. No one you told me go get a scribe. No one has ever uh you know, you know, he starts swearing, right? He starts by by Lord, I I have never No one has ever had to tell me to go get a scribe." And what that tells us is I think this dates to the 7th century, 8th century, 7th century. But what it tells us is that the soldiers, the enlisted men, not only could they read, or at least this one in particular guy could read, but apparently there was a stigma associated with the inability to read. And so, this uh provides a little evidence for this argument that, yeah, the standard person might be able to read. Maybe maybe literacy was far greater than we thought, because not only could this guy read, or at least a soldier, right? You you you think scribes can read and and the soldiers can't. Not only can he read, but there was actually a stigma associated I mean, he he was offended in the letter that this guy suggested that he can't read.
Yeah. So, that's that's one argument.
Yeah, something that uh and I'll put a link down in the description to an article by Professor Schniedewind back from 2000 called Sociolinguistic Reflections on the Letter of a Literate Soldier. Yeah. Uh right, dating to the like 588 BC is kind of roughly when ballpark and they put them. But something that um Professor Mandel has talked about recently is, you know, when we talk about scribes, scribes come up a lot. Are they the only ones doing writing? Who can do writing? And in in a situation like this shows some other people can. And should we be thinking of writing as one of these crafts, which is where a lot of the scholarship is going now. But something they argue about as well, not not necessarily Mandel, but what counts as literacy? What Is there a threshold that we have to pass? Does this count or are we really talking about, you know, well, if it's not a text, does an ostracon count? Does a mark for your name count? Does a graffiti count? And how do we tell how many hands are really participating? Cuz a one soldier might be literate and they might be upset. Does that mean every soldier supposed to be literate or they're just very sensitive on this because they, unlike everyone else, are literate. And so, don't call me like everybody else. I I do have this thing. And you have limited evidence.
Yeah, so this is the exception proving the rule thing. Now, you know, the the counter argument, the back argument to this is um okay, we're going to have a higher standard. So, it's not just an ostracon, right? You pay your taxes and you're handed an ostracon that says, you know, whatever whatever the three things that you paid. It's very simple. Um and so, oh, look, evidence of literacy. That can't be the standard for literacy. Can they read um a narrative, right? Or can they read some kind of, you know, a narrative like the Exodus? Can they actually read the text of the Hebrew Bible? Can they read a series of laws? Something very simple, right? You do not do this or do not do that. Can they read the stele that that's uh in the town square that reminds people these are the laws. Um you know, so so is it is it more of a do they can they read and understand literature? Does that what it means to be literate? And my argument to that is if that's the definition of what it means to be literate most of the people that you know, in society today don't qualify as literate cuz you know, how many of them have read literature like you're expecting me a lot of them know we don't read the terms and conditions on our stuff. We don't read most of the laws. All 5,000 pages of the
We don't we don't we don't read for fun. We don't read fiction. We don't read non-fiction. Most people don't read. And we're going into a society now where we're we're headed back more towards uh video. Now they didn't have video, but they did have oration. And this is one of the things that Schneidewind points out uh when he talks about social linguistics. You had a scribal class that would write these things down. You had a a recorder class. There were these guys that would but most of Jeremiah had a scribe.
Mhm. That it was an oral tradition. Somebody would get up and perform orally. They they would memorize this stuff. Prophets would speak. And it wasn't necessarily that they were illiterate, but society may have been more illiterate. That is it was a spoken society. And there might have been people that you paid. A lot of times they were enslaved peoples to to learn how to read and write. Uh if you if you a king would hire a scribe, you write the things down. I'm just going to speak. I'm not going to take the time to learn how to read and write. I'll pay you to do it. And so it's not that they were dumb and illiterate. It was just more of an illiterate society. And maybe this soldier Yeah. learned how to read cuz that was one of part of his training. Maybe he was a not a scribe, but he was someone who had to read uh the instructions with the dispatches. And so he was you know, one of this guy his his superior was getting on him and saying hey, don't do that to me.
I earned my rank. I have my I'm I'm significant.
When a part of this question that I I think sometimes when you read popular discussion of the question who's literate and who's not.
Right. It takes the same points that are coming out of the scholarly discussions about this and really moves the results. Because it's not then about well, how can we understand the society or what's going on? What does this tell us about a soldiery class, but is usually aimed at just that well, what does this tell us about the Bible? Right. And when was it written or how was it written and we can prove that it was because of what this is. Which can be a bit of a trap way to like grab you know, I'm going to grab a citation. I'm going to grab a name here from this and say oh look, based off of this L A K I S H letter three, therefore this happens here. That means somebody could read it and that means Moses wrote what the Bible says that Moses wrote. That's a jump that feels right the response is to but happens. And those aren't the same thing.
Yeah, they're not. They're not. And the other argument is well, look, we've got graffitos, right? We've got graffiti that are out there. And so obviously people But again, that's a circular argument because the only people who would leave graffiti are the few who can read and write. So it's not like it's Pompeii everywhere where everybody's just you know, scribbling on the walls. It's it's you know, you they're very very rare. So we do find them, but if you then count up all the number of people that walk through a particular area, that's one out of how many thousands tens of thousands
Like even if we're talking about an increased percentage of literacy in the region or compared to other regions, which also gets hard like how are you ranking things?
Yeah. Uh that percentage of how much of the population is still a lot lower. I think Rollston normally puts it like 15%.
Yeah, no.
Like if if we're looking at a high number, if you're wanting to what is a high water mark of this, it's still small and a lot of that number is going to be your temple class, your palace ecosystems. Like it's going to be highly concentrated, but how does it drip out? It moves out from those systems at what point in time?
And and again we can argue that the that the biblical text was written and redacted at a later time in exile. But you've still got the story of Moses saying from God, go and speak to the Israelites and tell them. Yes, he's writing it down or God is with his finger depending on where you're reading. But he's saying go speak and and tell them this. You know, tell Aaron to go speak to the to pronounce this blessing Adonai you know, the Lord bless you and keep you. These are spoken words. The the 10 Commandments are spoken uh commandments. Now, you're going to write them down in a central place, right? Or God, you know, if you if you break them, right? Um they're going to be wrote written up, but they're going to be written down on a big plastered and then so that you know, which was the custom, right? You're going to put a big stela in the in the middle of the town square. And this is to remind everybody not that everybody can read it.
Well, there's a a different like again on the pivots, just cuz it exists. Think of them like the monumental things. Like there is a a part of it that by being a barrier is the point.
Yeah. You can see it, but you can't read it. And it reminds you of your place and it also gives words or magic the people that can read them have a power and an authority over you cuz they have access to the information that you can't.
And and and you know, Professor Schneidewind takes this a step further with the the idea of orthography.
Yeah. What there is a class system within scribal cultures.
Yes. Yeah. Um if somebody writes N I T E or somebody writes N I G H T, we know what they're saying, right? We know that it's night and night. But for some reason, if somebody comes in here and starts leading leaving comments and misspells some words, we know what they're saying. We know how to read it. If they put the wrong there there, right? If they put the wrong We who cares, right? But some people will go in and criticize the spelling because that's not proper spelling. There's for some reason we have set things like syntax and grammar and spell we know what the person's saying. And when we text each other, we don't care about spelling so much. In fact, we use these abbreviations. But for some reason orthography, how how to properly spell a word becomes this uh orthodoxy to that lets you know that you're you know how to do things properly. And that person, even though they can read and write isn't you know, as good. Isn't as well trained. So spelling I always think is is the snootiness of you know, it's it's the within the academic culture whether it's now or in in antiquity, it's somebody critiquing your spelling is them reminding you by the way, I'm I'm I'm smarter than you are. So I when when I'm debating somebody or I'm arguing with someone or I I'll correct their spelling because it's a paper and they turn it in and that's what I'm supposed to do. But I'm not going to think lesser of the person uh dumb smart because they didn't spell a word properly. But for some reason we judge people based on whether or not they know how to spell. I I I we went into this because there's a social stigma to not being able to spell because what? We still know what they're saying. They communicate to us just fine. And if they speak, that goes away. In a spoken in an illiterate society you know exactly what the person's they don't have to spell it. We know what they're saying. So there's something about a a scribal culture where not only do you have to write be able to write it, but you have to be able to spell the word properly to demonstrate that you were very well trained. And then you can't end sentences in prepositions and you can't do things like that. So that's when the scribal culture becomes a a hierarchy. We'll put some links in the description to some things by Bill Schneidewind that you might be interested in. If you are wanting to jump into the world of scribes and literacy and textual development, um you can also go back and watch an interview. I think it's from like last January um talking about Bill's new book. So there's going to be things we'll put some links down in the description to interviews and readings that you can have there. Bob Scott Balbus wants to know if you remember umpiring
Games at Town and Country Park. Do I remember umpiring games at Town and Country
Said you called your little bro their brothers and you
I do. I do. I when I was
The worst umpire. It probably No, no. Um yeah, when I when I went up into so we had Little League and then we had Babe Ruth and then we had high school and and on up. And when I graduated on up, I came back cuz the park was right across the street from my house. So I would earn an extra 10 or 15 bucks a game. This might come as a shocker to you. Um so I I'm a scholar now because I couldn't hit a slider to right field. I couldn't basically hit anything to right field. I was a dead pull hitter and you got to be able to hit off speed pitches and stuff if you want to go on in baseball. Uh but I was a student of the game. So I knew all the rules. I was a defensive catcher. I I you know, I I kind of knew what was going on. And so I would go over and umpire games. And yes, I would call balls and strikes. I would uh sometimes I'd umpire the bases and you you usually switch. That's a fond memory for me. Uh my other memory that's not as fond is when I was wrapping up playing baseball in college when I was finishing my career. This is a true story. Um and it was becoming apparent to everybody but me that I was not going to move on and become a become a professional base I was going to get I wasn't going to get drafted. I wasn't going to get signed. I wasn't going to go on. Um the umpires And I knew all I was a catcher, right? I knew all the umpires. We had the same rotation of umpires that came through. They they would get in behind me during the warm-ups, you know, last couple warm-ups before you throw it down to second base before the game starts. They'd come in I I still remember them. They'd come in, "Hey Bobby, hey you know, if you if when you're done playing, you know, you you should come be an umpire. You know the game really well. You know all the rules. You should come" And I'm like, "What do you mean when I'm done playing? I'm still playing. This is a game. We're still in the middle of They're all going to get replaced by ABS now anyway. I know. I know. But and then the coaches would come up and say, "You you know, you'd be a good coach. You you know the game really well. You know" And so I I would I should have been a coach. Probably making more money as a coach or an umpire. But yes, the answer to the question is yes, I remember umpiring those games. Probably should have done that for a living. Uh love love those memories. Town and Country Park Lions Town and Country Park. I think one of them the American League Park is named after my grandfather who was a vet uh was injured during World War II and I think there's a Ray Cargill Park over there. So anyways, yeah. Yes, the answer is yes. Yeah. Yeah. Aussie Pieru, I see your question here about uh if this Pishon basket thing is happening. Are bit embedded derived from the Sumerian word for basket? Off the top of my head, I would say not sure. Um as usual, I can look. I feel like this is in kind of in that same etymology thing that we've run into before. Sometimes it's a path you can really track. Sometimes it is not. Similarity does not mean relationship all the time, which can also be one of those mental traps that they look related or they sound related. They might be. They might have a pathway through each other or they might not. So I would guess if they are, you're going to be able to find some good kind of word study articles on them where someone has looked at that. Here's the development of this and the long roots that come out from this word through, you know, where you're going to find it on and on and on and on and on. So maybe I mean, if it is if there is a connection, that's very interesting. If you're going to have basket connected to the river and you know, are there things maybe you could maybe have an idea of if we have traditions like we do where rulers come along in baskets getting plucked up out of rivers like that could be fun. But also the fact that it might be really fun might be something that you want to see it and leads you to find something to try to support it.
Folk etymology instead of circling it the other way. Yeah. That it it might not go that way around, which we get like when we're talking about folk etymologies, right? If you're looking at the Hebrew Bible and this is why No, like that that's what those things are. So we got a lot of folk etymologies happening. Go to Genesis. Genesis is like a lot of
Folk etymology gone wild.
Yeah. No, it's it's on steroids there.
Yeah, you want a you want a story for a word, we're going to make up a story for a word real quick. And this is why it was this. Right.
Cuz cuz the guy was red. Yeah, no. Or, you know, Issachar, sometimes they'll they'll insert an etymology to cover up the fact that they don't like what was really going on there. Um or Moses himself, right?
Yeah. This is we don't want it to be what it is, so we'll say it sounds like the word to draw out and look, they drew him out of the water. So Yeah, you got I mean, Genesis So we started off with Genesis. Let's come back to Genesis. Um if you have it Let me throw this way. If you have a Genesis related question, put it down in the chat. Pishon and Gihon themselves are made up names. Yeah. Like and at the end of the day, someone Like yes. Um so I would say yeah, Aussie Pieru, not off the top of our heads, we don't know. I would think you'd be able to find check hello um check the go to JSTORE and look through their articles and see. At least we have another reference to Gihon in Jerusalem, which ties the Gihon with the Gihon's, you know, the spring, right? Um which which is what is probably responsible for the Garden of Eden tradition and the Jerusalem tradition merging that there was the Eden had something to do with Jerusalem. The Pishon is the one that we can't That's that's the one that throws it off. We know where the Tigris is. We know where the Euphrates is. We know that
Gihon is is there. The Pishon is the one that throws it all off.
It's it's somewhere. It's somewhere. Becca says that Genesis is clearly patriarchs gone wild, which it is that is So it's it's a lot of things gone wild. You got like etymologies gone wild. You've got patriarchs gone wild. You have at some points you can say God gone wild. Like Genesis is There might be a few other books that are patriarchs gone wild and I'm just putting that out there. It might it it might permeate through beyond Genesis. I'm just just
But that's that's one that I something that is always interesting to me and I don't know. I somebody somebody at SBL was talking about this with Noah. Let's take for an example.
Yeah.
So many things out of Genesis become like the children's book stories like Noah's Ark. Mhm. When this is probably like if we look through Genesis, this is the stuff you're likely going to skip. We've got the stories of everybody dying. We got plenty of incest stories. We got all kinds of stuff that you're like, "Where do we go for the children's stories?"
Yeah. Well, do we want to do the one where the guy sleeps with his daughters? No. We want to do the one where God kills everyone? Yeah, we'll take that one. Do we Well, but only if he kills the right people. Which is everyone. Well, minus Noah and Noah's family. But, you know. But everybody else can get it.
But what happens right there after Noah? What happens when he goes to sleep in the cave, right? We're not going to tell that story to kids. Well. Although it was told to me It was told to me after, you know, When you do tell that story if you don't want them to drink wine. Right. Right. This is why you don't Noah Noah created wine according to Genesis, the father of viticulture. That's right. Well, also cuz everyone else was dead according to Genesis. So it's, you know, Noah might have stolen somebody's patent right there. There was somebody else who had come up with wine and Noah's like, "They're gone. I made it. God Look, check this thing out. These wines which are somehow around after the flood."
Claims to invent all the Beatles songs? Oh, everybody has like a coma or something.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, they there's there's like a mass amnesia and they all forget and then they're playing the Beatles songs and they said, "Yeah, that's what Noah did with wine in Genesis." Who knows?
Maybe not. Maybe maybe Noah is a real person who really may came up with wine. But maybe not. But read Yeah, read what happens with Noah's wine and you ask the question of what is supposed to have happened and how does Noah know that something has happened? Yeah. And there you go. It's lots of fun stuff in Genesis. It's it's What is it? If they actually applied the same ratings standards to the Bible that they apply to all of these other pieces of literature and the movies, uh it would be an X-rated uh document. It would.
Yeah. I mean, if we're looking at if we're looking at um If we're looking at violence, if we're looking at sexuality, if we're looking at, you know, it it's But it's got a religious exemption. It gets a religious exemption. It Genesis I feel like is many many Bible stories, many Bible books.
Mhm. You think you know, but you don't know. You you you know you know, but that's the one that more than like King David. Sure, there's lots of things in David that you you think you know, but you don't know.
Maybe you get into Judges. But also people go like, "I don't really know what happens in the book of Judges." Yeah, yeah, there's like a Samson character There's a Samson guy. I heard of a Gideon before. The rest of it I'm kind of vague on.
There's a reason you don't know the rest of it. And they Well, cuz they find it boring. But the Genesis is one where I think if you ask people like, "You know Genesis?" more people are going to say, "Oh yeah, I know Genesis" than Judges. And then you go, "Okay, let's read some Genesis real quick." This is why I spend a lot of time on those stories. I spend a lot of time saying, "Look, if if this is the book that we want all of our kids to read uh mandatorily, right? If we we're going to require this as a text. Okay, let's go read it. And then let's decide if this is a book that we really want to base our laws on. If this is the book that we really or if we want to, you know, make it a book that is good to know because so much of modern society so much of modern literature, classical literature, right? Is is rooted in it. Right? Especially the King James version. We we get so many phrases and words out of the King James uh translation of the Bible. But is it necessarily where we want to be rooting our modern civic laws? And is it necessarily what we want our kids reading? I mean, I I I remember reading Song of Songs one day and my mom walked in the room and said, "Where did you get that smut?" And I was like, "No, no, no. I'm I'm I'm reading chapter chapter five, right? I was reading chapter five of Song Song of Songs. But it was, you know, it was that part that Qumran leaves out, they don't Qumran doesn't copy all of it. Was it an accident or was it? Anyways, there's some risque stuff in there. You know, putting the handle in the bolt and the and the myrrh dripping and
That's I mean, that's another one if you haven't read it. I So when I when when I teach Song of Songs, I print it out like a script like a like a Bollywood thing where the the the reads a part and the woman reads a part, and then I get like two I volunteers and I have them come up and read it to each other. Um it it's I probably shouldn't do that as much now today, but yeah, and they
It's it does have They all have differences when you read them aloud. And Song of Songs, if you haven't read it, yeah, read it aloud when you read it. Um Rabbi Akiva thought it was the best book in the Bible.
Best book. It's like the the holy of holies. It's the best one. Is Is there a story, Bob, that it's just a a question for me that you feel like you like too much to teach? Like is there one that you like so much that you're like, I oof. Either because teaching it is like it's too personal, or because you don't want to have to kind of pull it apart, and you like the memory of the way you had it previously in your mind. Is Is there one that's like, I'm going to keep it here?
Some of my favorites are are ones that I can parallel to like favorite movies. So, when the Rabshakeh comes up and he's taunting them on ta- taunting um uh Hezekiah's uh basically his cabinet, right? His his officials. Uh and this is 2 Kings what? 18. Um uh and they're and they're Rabshakeh's come up. The Assyrians are coming up and they're getting They want him to surrender Jerusalem. And um I I always envision that scene of Monty Python and the Holy Grail where they're coming up and there's a French, you know, you know, we're on the search for the Holy Grail, and he's and he's taunting them back. I always envision that. And he's like uh uh you know, open the gates, you know, we're going to or we're going to kill you. And they're like, no, hey, don't don't speak to us in the Hebrew. We know Aramaic, you know, you're scaring the people. And he's like, you know, that's what we're trying to do. And then he starts, you know, tell saying some pretty nasty things to them about what they're going to eat and what they're going to drink. Um that one's I just find funny. Although I I I look for the the things that I think are written to be humorous. Right? And that that one I think is funny. But you like to
teach that one.
I love to teach. I love to teach that one. Like, cuz I'm thinking, you know, sometimes people will be like, there's a book like removed from the context of Bible stories. Like, oh, this is a book I love, but because I love this book so much, like I don't really want to have a room full of students rip it apart. No, I... No, look. The stories in the Bible, everybody, what, you know, talk about Genesis, or talk about, you know, talk about the creation. I love looking at creation. I love comparing Genesis 1 and 2. I love looking at Eden. But I'm doing it in a little different way than it was taught to me in Sunday school, right? I love looking at, um, the Rabshakeh. I, I love looking at Isaiah 45 in this monotheistic decree, right? I, I love looking at, um, ethical problems. Cuz, cuz I, I want the stuff that's relevant to us today. It, it, like archaeology, it shouldn't just be about the history, it should be about history that informs us about the people so that we can learn more about who we are today. So, why does it matter? If, if we can't explain to people, if we can't explain to viewers, if we can't explain to students, if we can't explain to the people who are funding the humanities, why the humanities matter, why the Bible matters today. Right? Beyond, you know, so we can go to heaven, right? If we can't understand, why does this literature, why is it so valuable? Even if you're an agnostic. Mhm. Right? Even if, even this isn't your religious tradition. Why is it important that, let's speak directly to American kids, know this literature? At least have a fundamental grasp of what the stories are about. And not just the happy, yay, you know, we survived the flood. They shouldn't know the flood. You should know the flood story. You should know about David and Goliath. You should know these things. Uh, because if nothing else, you can understand sports metaphors, right? You should understand, uh, David and Goliath. You should understand what that means, how that works, right? But concepts of redemption, concepts of freedom, concepts of, even though there's no democracy in the Bible. There's no concept of democracy. It's all monarchy. It's all, right? There's a lot of slavery, a lot of endorsement of slavery. And yet this, this freedom from it, emancipation from it. So, the, these are the concepts that I like to look at, that I like to teach. The concept, one of my favorite books to teach is Jonah, but not because of the, the big fish. Right? I, I was always taught about the big fish, and you better do what God says, or you're going to get eaten by a big fish. That's not what Jonah's about. Jonah's about wanting to take revenge on your enemies, and getting angry at God when he doesn't do that. Why doesn't God punish the, the people that I want punished? These are the ones. These are the books. Kohelet, Ecclesiastes. Right? These are the ones, the philosophical books, the ones that make us think about, why am I suffering? Why? Those are the ones that I like teaching.
Well, there you go. So, no. The answer is no. There's one, not one he's going to talk. [laughter]
Uh, Azupiru, I have seen your comments. Sorry, I was letting Bob go here. >> Yeah, thanks for letting me ramble. Yeah. So, questions on, right? Pishon and Gihon are situated before Euphrates and Tigris, but we also, right, if we're looking at Genesis 2, the context of this, we're talking about a time where are we really trying to map a thing or not? Um, question on thoughts for the Hebrew names for Euphrates and Tigris being identical to the names of these rivers, right? Is there a connection in this? And Nick had put a comment in that Gihon may be a play on the Hebrew word for belly. Um, not like beten belly, but gahon belly. And if you want to see, well, if you're thinking that Gihon is connected to Jerusalem as a central space. Again, you're moving in all these processes, doing like the word building, you do play from like a, can we track the linguistic path, also then moving into maybe symbolic? Yeah. Is, so like, how do you balance those things? And then is, is they said nefesh has the same, right, for soul, same root letters as Pishon, which there are root letters in there, but Pishon is also connected like push for scatter. And so like that river is scattering things out. I'm not, not here to like disagree with Nick's reading. You can go, this is that back and forth for how do we track connections between roots, and then also when we move into like metaphorical or symbolic readings. So, is there a path between those things, Azupiru? I think you, you can do like, it's a, yeah, you have their bellies, they're birthing. This is connected to that idea of water, right? Water is the birthing place of things in the Bible.
>> And that's, that's what you know, the other theory is that this was written during a, a Persian period, right? During a Persian period. What does it, what is Eden about? It's about paradise. Par-, it's a Persian word, pardes, right? >> Yeah. So, what >> centered around water supply. What's a Persian par-, par-, pleasure garden look like? It's got that central thing. It's got the, the cross, the crossing waters that go through that central piece, and then it's, it's got the square, right? So, you have the four rivers, one, two, three, four. You got to give them names, so they're going to be known rivers and some other rivers. So, the idea that, and the mixing of like the known and the unknown is not totally unique, either. You can see this in like, um, Greek either historiography, but also like novellas, where you blend, think of the Odyssey, you blend some known places with some unknown places. And in that, it creates a gap and a mystery of, you can get there, but where? Can I get to that place that the heroes went to where that creation was? I might be able to go someplace nearby, but not to that thing. So, that's not a totally unique phenomenon, either. Right. Uh, but you, but, you know, so then the idea is, is this an idyllic place, is a metaphorical place, or is it a physical place? And that's always been the argument about what is Eden. But, you know, it's, to me, it looks like it's trying to describe a Persian paradise, a Persian pleasure garden. That's, that's the, that's the name of it there. Oh, by the way, you've got fruit trees that are always planted in this thing, and you just walk about this beautiful garden that's enclosed with a wall, so it's safe. Uh, and then you've got something right in the center, in that centerpiece, that's got water flowing all around it. And that's the thing that you don't touch. So, I mean, it could be describing that. Uh, you know, I, I always recommend, uh, Peter Lanfer's book, uh, on Eden. Uh, L A N F E R. Peter Lanfer has a book. We'll link it. On, yeah, on Eden. Uh, if you want to read more about that. >> Reception history. >> Yeah, yeah, it's a reception of the Eden story. Um, [snorts] Azupiru had a second question regarding a connection between mist, the word for mist and mother goddess. I think if we're kind of sitting in that same space, that idea of like these primordial, either elements, maybe we should call them, you know, you can think about those connections with deities in a wide range of spaces. So, you know, possibly, very, very possibly. And Nick, you said you wouldn't go that far. There are a lot of fun puns in J, however, there are lots of, there's lots of fun puns all over the place. >> Yeah. Um, so, we'll put, we'll put some links down. We had some last time. Again, I would say go and check, just because I linked a ton of things in the last live. I'll put a link, I'll put a link to that live, which then if you go into that live's description, uh, because there are some things on like Second Temple concerns, right? Go, you can check out the works like Lester Grabbe's a great place to go. Good four-volume set on Second Temple concerns for some of that, like, what's the Persian influence? I believe that's required reading around here. >> I believe, I believe someone gave you a four-volume set of that that you could use in a required reading class. I don't know who that would be. But the four-volume version's great because it's fairly recent, and they give you tons of resources. So, like each section opens up with, here's a bunch of things to read. Here's kind of a, not that short summary, and we move on to the next thing. Uh, as an aside, just very quickly, since we brought him up so much early on, Bill Schniedewind, yeah, just named distinguished professor at UCLA. Congratulations to Professor Schniedewind. >> Congratulations. >> Coming. Uh, but, well done, sir. Much, much deserved. >> Very, very much. And now, you know, like, yeah, you're going to take some time off and write 500 more books, probably. >> Got three like in the, in the hopper. He's firing them off, right? So, um, it's, you know, the life of brilliant people. Yeah. But he all he does, he plays with grandbabies and writes books. That's, you know, that's. So we have a question here. >> Beautiful life. Congratulations. >> Congratulations. A rainbow serpent complex, um, I think we'll, we'll wrap on this question for you today. Exodus 15 seems to indicate three distinct ways the enemy forces are defeated during the same event. >> Hang on. Let me, let me. I got my concordance here. >> Is this an indication of redactional layers within the proposed archaic core of Song of the Sea? So they did SOTS. This is Song of the Sea for Exodus 15. >> Mhm. Which we, we have a number of different things. So you're going to have like verse one, I will sing to the Lord for he has triumphed gloriously. Horse and rider he has thrown into the sea. >> Right. The Lord is my strength and my might. He has become my salvation. This is my God and I will praise him. >> Mhm. Uh, we're going to have like verse four, Pharaoh's chariots and his army he cast into the sea, right? We get that idea of them being there. His picked officers were sunk. The floods covered them. They went down to the depths like a stone. Your right hand, O Lord, glorious in power shattered the enemy. You overthrew them. Verse eight, the blast of your nostrils, the water piled up. The floods stood up in a heap. The enemy said, "I will pursue. I will overtake. I will divide the spoil." You blew the wind. Who is like you? Right. Um, so I'd say if you have, just cuz I don't, you know, as we go through the, the ones, the horses of Pharaoh and his chariots verse 19 and his drivers went into the sea, the Lord brought back the waters of the sea upon them. And the Israelites walked upon, upon dry ground. We, we do, you do get a blending of like ways that death happens, but it also is, I mean, like, yes, you're going to have a mix. But it does get associated with kind of that more archaic idea than what we have before. But like, I know, I know some people argue that like verse 19 for the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and his horsemen into the sea as like possibly redactional, but they're being like J and E materials where some of this top stuff with the overtaking it, the dividing, like verses one through like 19 is a break, like one through 18 being maybe J stuff. And then like when we get into the song of Miriam, the Lord has triumphed, like maybe a shift into another source before bouncing back. So if we're getting differences of verse 21, the Lord has triumphed gloriously. Horse and rider he has thrown into the sea. Is it a different remembrance source, ways of that same idea that we have up earlier from maybe J materials about throwing him into the sea? And then another maybe version of that in 19, which is, and you're kind of like, "Hey, some idea of something taking place at the sea." But if, if we go back before, it's not super clear that they ever even go into the sea. That they're on the shore of the sea. And they don't go in. They do go in. They go in in 15. So are there multiple ways that they? Yeah, probably. There's, there are distinct ways that they're defeated. Yeah, and you, and you've got the original song, and then then as the tradition grows, the song gets reinterpreted. And as an apologetic device that that's, oh, no, see, this is what that means. This is what that means. By the way, who were you? Was it you that were telling, was telling me or was it Professor Gibson that was telling me that later on there's a tradition Corpus skins? No, no, no. That the, that when, when Moses, when he, when he spreads the water, that there's actually 12 different pathways. >> 12 paths, one for each tribe. >> When the tribes walk through, 12 different dry paths for the for them to pass through. >> Then it. Well, and it is a nice. What do you know? 12. And you're going to have here distinct ways so that everyone, there's a real, every tribe is represented. So, which in some ways is interesting, cuz it is a later development that it's not like this monolithic idea of, but an older, like tribal idea of the things. They pointed out rainbow serpent thrown into the sea, covered up by the sea, while on land, swallowed by the earth. I think like you could read these as distinct things, but thrown into the sea and covered up by the sea, while on land, and then swallowed by the earth, are they totally different? You put like verse 15, 12, the earth swallowed them. Uh, you stretched out your right hand. Yeah, the earth, which is it, is eretz, right? So if, if you're looking at that as a distinction, it's no longer talking about, uh, like verse 19, chariots and chariot drivers went into the sea. But if you go back into Exodus 14, when you have the crossing of the sea, they're, they're on the shoreline. And so what's happening there may be a reflection of they were on the shore. They weren't really in the middle. And so when they're being swallowed up by the earth, if it is that receded water idea, you get trapped in the mud. Help, I'm stuck in the mud. And then when the water comes back up. So you're swallowed, you know, trapped by the earth. >> Well, and you've also got the multiple elements, right? You've got the wind involved. You've got the waters involved. You've got the earth involved. This is a comprehensive, you know, uh, destruction. Yeah. All, all things are being marshaled together to do this. >> And I like to always remind people, we're dealing with poetry. Yeah. You're >> from some old, old, you know, poetry. Um, and anytime you do it, try it today. Anytime you go through and try to map poetry to not even narrative, but just try, you know, try to use poetry apologetically, this is where problems start. Yeah. >> Right? I mean, it, it happens all the time, right? You'll go in and you'll take poetry from Isaiah and you'll try to say, "Oh, no, see, this is, you know, the Septuagint doesn't know what to do with it, half the time. They don't know a lot of the words, half the time. And then it creates new traditions. And from that, from the use of, you know, trying to translate poetry literally, and then you get these new traditions, and then you get these Second Temple traditions, and then When tapping in as well >> tapping as well, it's very clearly and there's lots of people that you could read about with this. Tapping on those ideas of what deities are being appropriated, storm relationships, and how are we captivating their power or their expressions and bringing that into this one. So I do think like, yes, you are fair to note there may be three distinct ways. A quibble point someone might bring back would be, are they so distinct? Or, you know, in trying to say, no, it is this holistic destruction, the distinct ways are showing control over different aspects, be a sea, wind, earth, whatever, and making a holistic from every avenue. Or you can go down that does it split into sources path? That could be a thing. Is it, you know, multiple even inside a source, different memories within, and you get phases, which is not your neo-documentary way, but an older way. Lots of things. But rainbow, rainbow serpent complex, I think it's a very fun question. I know we talked about Exodus 14 a lot in the bonus podcast in the splitting stuff up. So you might be interested in that if you're interested there. One other fun fact, cuz we talked about the 12 paths. >> Yeah. This will be the last thing. Um, 12 paths and Scott says we're well-read. Thank you so much, Scott. It's very nice. Lots of fun time reading. But a different fun fact for you all to keep in your pocket is when you get to the construction of the tabernacle, how is it that you're supposed to make the outer skin of the tabernacle out of porpoise skin? Right? Go, go look. It says it's supposed to be out of like porpoise or dolphin or something. Well, the solution is it's cuz they got them when they were crossing the sea. That when the waters come back, there were some porpoises or something around. And I guess they picked them up and they're like, "This is nice. I'll take this dead thing with me." Or not yet dead and you whack it on the head. And then eventually we've got these things around and there you go, you have the solution. So another one of those like 12 paths come up, porpoise skin. Well, we've got a pathway for them to get porpoise skin. It is fun. Uh, not arguing for a correlation. This is rainbow. Uh, but there seems to be some Northwest Semitic tradition of chariot forces being destroyed at or near a body of water. >> It shows up also in the poem of Pentar. Yeah, like that is probably you're going to have in some ways it's that great, like underdog of the chariot is the ultimate weapon and you were defeated by the oldest chaotic thing of the sea. >> Mud. Yeah. >> And the deity who controls the sea overturns the power of humans which you've marshaled through your weapons. But look, the deity is on our side. The deity controls the chaos. And so this thing of Deborah, the song of Deborah, right? You're, you're coming down. >> I was just thinking this with the mud and the high point in, in the, the stars fighting on our behalf and the Jezreel Valley and the high, there's a, there's a ridge going through there. Otherwise, it's just mud. You've got your, you've got your chariots right there, right? You've got your chariots and yet here we have the. So another one, which maybe some of that like Azupiru mud coming back into that this fight. Is that because there's a real memory of that or multiple events where someone was in a battle and they're like, "We're all going to die." What do you know? It rained. We don't die anymore. You can even go into like European history. What is it? It's like the Russians and the Nazis, right? It, you get the snow. The elements, the elements, the weather are going to be more responsible. Also Super Bowls, right? You know, it's this is what they play them all indoors now, but every once in a while you used to get one outdoors and the, the weather, the weather will be responsible for more. Battle of Agincourt. There we go. There's your non-Hebrew Bible relation for today. Another mud one, not chariots, just armor. Um, but all that random stuff to say, we'll leave this one here. >> [laughter] >> I am going to put links down in the description to books by Professor Schniedewind, uh, Lanfer, some interviews with Cynthia, some stuff on news stories, some things on the La Keish letters, I, the new insights to the Hebrew Bible. If I forgot something, put it in the comments. Last week's live, I told you to go look at that. See, I know I would forget. Um, I will put the links to all those down in the description. Thank you so much for hanging out in person, live, virtually in person with us. Or if you're watching on replay, love to have you around. If you didn't check out this week's podcast, we were talking about the 10 Commandments with Joel Baden. Um, next week we're going to be talking with Professor Chance Bonar about Jesus and slavery. And then the following week, we're going to be traveling down to Egypt. I mean, not physically, although I would love to. But fun stuff coming your way, so stay tuned. Happy to have you along and we will see you soon.