Transcription
Is it lucrative to be a songwriter today with streaming? No, no, it's really bad. Think of the biggest pop artists on the planet, then think of your favorite songs that they sing. Odds are Justin Tranter right here wrote those songs.
I feel like a big piece that people don't know about the music industry is how payment works. It doesn't. I have been very, very fortunate because I have had radio hits. I live a secure life, and I can take care of my parents. For songwriters that don't have songs on the radio, there's songs that will have 300 million streams but weren't on the radio, and I maybe, maybe make like six thousand dollars.
My band was dropped from four record deals. So when I finally had the business working somewhat on my side, I was writing 12 songs a week—day sessions, night sessions, everything.
I think most people would assume like Justin Bieber's Sorry is probably my highest earner. It's nowhere close. Because I know your followers are very like business-interested people, so why not just be honest about the business? I'm with the one and only Justin Tranter. Hello, a legend, the king of TikTok music, here teaching us all how to exist. I mean so much I appreciate that, but Justin, I gotta say, uh, for those of you who don't know, Justin is one of the greatest songwriters, one of the greatest pop songwriters today, in my opinion. Um, wow, written massive songs. Um, why don't you tell them a little bit about some of your favorites you've written so far?
Sure. Um, some of my favorites are Believer, Imagine Dragons [Applause], uh, Selena Gomez, Good for You, My Hands to Myself, Why Would I Want to Lose You, To Love Me, incredible, Cake by the Ocean, a Halsey, Bad at Love. The list goes on and on and on. [Music] Very, very, very lucky, with an insane amount of hard work, but luck does need to come with that too.
Speaking of hard work, you have been in the game for quite a long time.
A million years. I'm happily, proudly a thousand years old. One thousand. Mark it down. How many songs did you write before you had your first placement?
Um, so it's a little—that's a tricky question because I started writing songs at 15, and my first placement was when I was 33 or 34. I came out when I was 34. I can't remember what time of year they actually cut it, but so I was writing songs since I was 15, but I always wanted to be a singer-songwriter. So when I first started, it was like, you know, I was the kid of the 90s, so all of the amazing female singer-songwriters like Ani DiFranco, Tori Amos, Kate Bush, who's now a current pop star again, which is the coolest thing that's ever [ __ ] happened to anyone—mainly her fans were all like dead now, in a good way. I love it. Um, so that was my first vision, but then in like 2005, six, I started a sort of like Glam Rock Revival band, and so it was in my band called Semi-Punched Weapons for years and years and years, writing all the songs for the most part by myself. And so long story not short at all, there was—I wrote a lot of [ __ ] songs, but I was only trying to write songs with and for other people for about a year before my first big placement came out. Um, it was only about three months till someone cut us. On Kelly Clarkson, got a song called Nostalgic, about three months into it. And the funny part is that I thought I was a [ __ ] failure because in that three months, you know, my publisher probably sent out 30 songs that all were no, no, no, no, no, no, even though I haven't dropped from four record deals, which is a lot of rejection and disappointment. It's not like a no every day as a songwriter; it's a no every [ __ ] day. I still get those, most of the time, you know. So that rejection, I wasn't used to. I was like, I must be bad at this. I should probably just like put more energy into my bands while we look for a new deal, like because at least our shows, people loved our show, so that was always like there's something good here. Anyway, now that I know this side of the business a lot better, three months is a very short amount of time to get a cut, and then it was like a year until I had a hit.
Did you get a publishing deal like three months prior or did you—
My band had a publishing deal. Okay. And so I got really um lucky, which is going to sound crazy, but it'll make sense in a second. I got lucky that the guy that signed the band into our publishing deal left the company, which was normally the kiss of death when the person that loves you leaves the company, but for me, it was amazing. So he left the company, and um, the band's last album, we made it with a guy named Tricky Stewart, who did Umbrella, Single Ladies, Baby, Justin Bieber. He's a genius. The new Beyoncé song, um, Break My Soul. Yeah, Tricky and Dream. Yeah. Um, I FaceTimed him the night it came out. I was so excited. Um, and so he had always said to me like, you're a really great [ __ ] pop songwriter; you're in a rock band, and we're like the arrangements sound like rock or alternative, whatever you want to call it, but like these are pop songs, you should think about that. So when my publisher left the company and someone new got brought in, I was like, Hey, can anyone put me in sessions to write for other people? Like pretty sure we're about to get dropped from Epic, which would have been our fourth drop. Um, like they took our name off their website, which is not a good sign, while you were still signing with me, while we were still assigned to them. Um, wow. So can someone put me in sessions? And so they did. They started putting me in sessions, and um, I guess I was really good at it, and I was really good at people. Um, and so people kept asking me back because they had such a great time, and they felt so safe, and they felt like they could talk about [ __ ] they normally can't talk about, and so that was it. So again, as I said, long story not short, I probably wrote a thousand songs to my first placement, but as a pop writer, it was a very short amount of time. Incredible.
I, I've heard that you kind of started out in those first three months, in the beginning, you start off writing very generic songs. Yeah, and when you let in later, it went a lot more specific. So when I first started writing, it was not—we were still in like the wake of like DJ Hell, do you know what I mean? Like it was like some amazing songs came out of DJ Hell, like Titanium, Sia, David Guetta—that's an exception, that's not DJ Hell—but we were still in like DJ Hell, where like every big song was just like a DJ situation. I just rephrase that: the people who were accepting outside songs, like Katy Perry, Gaga, all those people co-wrote their own songs, right? Taylor Swift, it's all—they're all—they're all in their own camps. You can't send them a song. So the only people that were accepting outside songs of the time were DJs, so I was just like trying to write some generic DJ hit, um, which is not music that I listen to or know about or like. So the first one I ever wrote in a pop session that I actually liked, um, and like really enjoyed singing the demo was Kelly Clarkson's Nostalgic. So it was much more specific; it was much more specific, and it's almost like if you listen to it, it's like an 80s dream alternative pop rock song; like it's not like a traditional pop song at all sonically. We're on the backing track of that one too, and I'll actually know she could change the keys. I'm not in the back of that song because she took the key up for her, but um, my original demo is—is it out there? Iconic. No, but I'm sure I have it on my phone somewhere, but um, it's iconic. I sound amazing. I believe it. But so that was the first time I felt like, yeah, I actually like this song. This song is [ __ ] great, and then like a week later Kelly Clarkson cut it. Um, but it didn't come out right away. No, she got pregnant, which good for her, but crushed my soul because I was telling everyone, oh my God, I got my first cut, and it's with Kelly Clarkson, and like I'm—I had like a big Kelly Clarkson Super Fan era for that second album with all the amazing, Since You've Been Gone was the first one, but that whole album, the stuff she did with with the Matrix and all those amazing—it was unbelievable. The ones on the—Avril co-wrote Masterpiece. Anyway, Breakaway. So incredible. So I was so excited, and I'm telling everyone in my whole life that like Kelly Clarkson cut a song, but then like it didn't come out for like two or three years because of her life, which is fine, but it wasn't fine for me. But this—this was—this was the part that was so crazy to me: your first placement was your first big hit, right? The first song that came out, right?
So Kelly was the first cut or placement, but the first time that was released to the world was also my first hit, yes, which was Fall Out Boy, Centuries. [Music]
So that being said, I feel like a big piece that people don't know about the music industry is, at least for songwriters, is how payment works. So in terms of like it doesn't [Laughter]. There, there's uh—it's broken. How does it actually work? How do songwriters get paid, and what can the music industry do for the future if it's not great to change that?
Yeah, so basically now the only way songwriters get paid is if a song is on the radio. Um, and so I have been very, very fortunate, um, not that I'm counting any streaming—not that I'm counting—but I have like 16 radio hits, but um, and I obviously I'm counting that with a joke, but there's no studio audience here, so the joke didn't land, but trust me, it was great. But um, very, very fortunate that because of—I have had radio hits. I live a beautiful, secure life, and I can take care of my parents. For songwriters that don't have songs on the radio, there's the songs that I will have—that will have 300 million streams but weren't on the radio, and I maybe make like six thousand dollars, um, which is really, really, really, really, really bad, right? So if you're a new songwriter and you can't believe that you've just got an album cut with Ariana, you got an album cut with Jonas Brothers, and like holy [ __ ], and there's all these streams and every—it's nuts, but it didn't go to radio, you can't survive on, right? Because you gotta write a couple—let's say you gotta write 100 songs, so you get one that's—that's good enough, or not even good enough, it's lucky that's good enough and lucky enough to like make the album and fit in the album's vision, get on the album, and that song makes you six thousand dollars, which is—you because you can't—a lot of amazing songwriters do have day jobs, but then they're gonna like not be able to go to sessions they need to go to. And so you get your advance, and then like if you don't have a radio hit within the first two years of that advance, the advance is gone, and then you're [ __ ]. Um, so it's a really big problem. So there was a lot of movement in Washington, and the law did get passed to increase our payment on streaming, but now then all the big streamers besides Apple Music, all the other big streamers locked arms and have been repealing it, so the law is frozen, so no one's making money on it because it's still in like—it's terrible. I'm not a lawyer, but I think it's like in the court of appeals or whatever that's called. Don't quote me on that. Some—you'll probably Google it and know much better, and you'll educate me tomorrow, but it's frozen. So we got that pay increase, but no one's seen it because it's frozen.
Is it lucrative to be a songwriter today with streaming? No, no, it's really bad. Um, and you know, as—as radio is now—radio, radio used to be a big way to break songs and be the leader. Um, and for—there's always exceptions, right? There's always exceptions, but for the most part, now radio is following what's happening on TikTok and following what's happening on streaming. Um, so it's like it has to be an absolute perfect world for a song to either go viral on TikTok or get enough love that Spotify playlisting that labels feel confident enough to take it to radio, that radio is going to actually follow through on it.
In terms of the three different—I'm just curious about this because I was—I was doing research on it. Yeah, and there was like performance royalties, like live performance royalties, there's like playing on the radio, and they're streaming. Those are the three ways—it's only when songwriters only get paid when they actually get a song out into the world. Is that right?
Correct. Yeah. So songwriters, you get your publishing—if you go to—if you have a publishing deal, you get your publishing advance, and then—but the only way you can recoup that advance and then make more money is radio play, live performance play, like people performing in concerts, but the concerts have to be—if the people aren't in like at least 5,000 cap capacity, right, or you're not going to see a penny from a live show. If someone's playing the Troubadour, no songwriters getting paid from that show, you know. Um, so and then film and TV syncs, it's a big, big way to make money. 100. So, um, I've been very, very fortunate that a couple of my songs, specifically Cake by the Ocean and Believer, Imagine Dragons, they were radio songs, which is great, but they also have synced like [ __ ] crazy to Nintendo commercials, to telephone commercials—just like nuts.
So on the business—business side of things, I think most people would assume like Justin Bieber's Sorry is probably my highest earner. It's nowhere close because it wasn't synced anywhere. Now, culturally, that song changed my life, and it's made me cool forever. Um, but financially, it's not. Um, because I know your followers are very like business-interested people, so why not just be honest about the business? Like it's—it's—if you can have a hit that's on the radio, but then also get synced on film and TV like crazy, it's literally life-changing, which is why for my publishing company, we're building out a whole film and TV department.
Love it. And we're doing the—the new TV show called Grease: Rise of the Pink Ladies, which is the prequel to Grease. There's like over 30 original songs in the show, so all written by people signed to me. Well, it's me; I'm a co-writer on all of it, but then we have—I have four other writers that are signed to me that are—are swapping out places to—to finish—to write the songs with me, so it's a way that while they're waiting for their big radio hits, I can make sure the writers signed to me actually can pay their rent and can actually eat, where most pop publishers give you your advance and then just like, okay, let's pray you get a hit on the radio in the next two years, else you're gonna have to go work at Starbucks.
How often are you in the studio, or like songwriters you work with every day kind of thing? Is it like a five days a week, like 40 hours kind of thing?
I would say I aim for five days a week to be in the studio, and I aim to like only work from like 1 p.m. to 7, uh, writing, right? Um, reality is I probably end up working six days a week, and at least three of those days I end up doing the double session, um, because something comes up, and I just don't want to [ __ ] say no to, or um, with all the cool film and TV stuff I'm doing, the deadlines are like serious because they have to go shoot a [ __ ] scene for sure, right? Like if it's a pop star, it's like they don't even really make a release plan until like they have the master in their hands, right? They're not gonna like pick a release date and they don't have a master yet. We're filming TV; it's like we're shooting the scene [ __ ] tomorrow, go fix this right now, which is actually kind of fun, but when it was first coming up, I was 100 doing double sessions every day, six days a week, like every [ __ ] day. Um, now some of those would cancel, and it would like be so exciting, like get to go see my friends on like a Wednesday night, which would never happen normally. Um, but yeah, it was—it was—I had been beat down so much by this business that once the door like finally cracked open, I was like, I might not be the best songwriter, but I can be the best collab writer, and I can be the hardest worker ever. Like no one—right? Whoever's the best songwriter, that's—that's uh—everyone has a different opinion of that, right? No one can have an opinion about how hard I work, and so that was like, I'll just go into every [ __ ] session, and no one can stop me. Um, and I did, and I really learned how to be so good with people, um, which I take just as seriously as writing the songs.
Yeah, yeah. It sounds like a lot of your conversations lead to the actual songwriting.
Yes, from the sessions, they really do. It's my favorite way to find the song because then the artist is gonna then just feel like this song is theirs and only theirs and like no one else could sing it because I literally took the—at least the title, if not a bunch of sentences. Um, a great example of that, the most extreme example is probably um Dixie Chicks—sorry, The Chicks now [Applause] [Music] Sleep at Night. How do you—sleeping now? And if you listen to the first verse, uh, I literally took exactly what Natalie said to me and said it to a melody, and Teddy Geiger, who was co-writing and producing the session with us—like amazing songwriters [ __ ]—she's just unbelievable. Teddy was like, are we really gonna put all of that—just truth in the song? My husband's girlfriend's husband just called me. How messed up is that? She's like, I don't see why not. So I do that a lot. It's happened in many, many songs, but that's the most extreme example if you want to like look at how ridiculous I can get about like taking the artist's actual words and heart and putting it into the song.
Um, we talked a lot about uh earlier about the different stories behind your songs. Yeah, and I—I had a—I had a question. I have a selfish question for me. I can't wait. Um, so I'm trying like show different process—different processes of the music industry, yeah, in a cool behind-the-scenes way. One of them is to land a placement as a songwriter. Okay, so to go about doing that, what would you recommend being the first step and to—to get to that place?
I mean, there's—there's—there's a thousand ways to do it, right? The one way to do it is to—however you can get yourself to a publisher, right? Now that can be tricky, but um, I got to a publisher because my band was so massive in New York City, and only in New York City, that it ended up getting bigger other places, but in that—that labels and publishers came to us because I built this whole world inside of it. So my way into the music business was through um building my bands, right? So that's different if you're just trying to be a songwriter. Later, I'll use the examples of songwriters that I have signed to my publishing company, um, which are um Brendan Colbain, unbelievable [ __ ] songwriter, like his melodies just like make me want to die in all the right ways, and he actually covered Sorry on his YouTube channel, and it was one of the most beautiful vocal performances I ever heard my whole life. [Music] I think he tagged me on an Instagram or something, whatever, and I do get tagged in so many things and get so many messages that I normally miss it, but I saw that one, um, and I just like commented like, you're [ __ ] amazing. Um, and then like he messaged me, and he was like, actually, like I'm trying to be a songwriter, like I want to do artist stuff and like, but
That's not I want to be a songwriter. Can I send you songs? And he did, and they were amazing. So then we signed him, but then it still takes a while to get him a cut, right? So that's a great example of like, you have to put your music out there 100% for people to see it. So as a songwriter or a producer, find any way you can to put your music out there, um, because how else are people going to hear it, you know? So, and B, don't be annoying. Don't be one of the people that like tags every songwriter on the planet or every producer on the planet or every publisher on the planet. Like, tag people and message people who you think would actually like what you're doing, right? Like, um, if you're like doing super cool Indie pop things, tag and message publishers who do super cool Indie pop things. Tag bigger songwriters to like, like even though I do I've been fortunate to write some big mainstream hits, like it's pretty clear that the songs that I'm a part of do lean like a little bit left of center. The history of me being in a band opening up for opening up for Lady Gaga, it's clear to see what kind of stuff I'm gonna like. Or also like, you know, I'm a huge LGBTQ activist. I'm on the board of GLAD. So like, if you're queer, I'm probably gonna listen just because I want to like open doors for other queer people because every [ __ ] girl was closed to me for so long. So be smart about who you harass on the internet.
Would you say in order to become a successful songwriter you need a publishing deal? Well, you know, nowadays with social media owning everything, um, I am sure there are ways to get there without it. Um, I I know for a fact actually, uh, Bebe Rexha, who's I mentioned you before, I think is one of the most underrated artists of our time, such a songwriter, such a [ __ ] singer, like vocalist [Music]. She's on TikTok all day. Oh yeah, sending me like, oh, did you hear this song? Did you hear that song? Did you hear like, oh, this girl's a songwriter, like she's not trying to be an artist, like listen to this [ __ ] song, like you should check, like people are paying attention. So there are ways to get two people and artists without a publishing deal, but I've been at Warner Chapel for 13 years now, um, so I have said publishing deals have been great for me, but when I was coming up it wasn't an option. Like, there was maybe MySpace, you know, like my band did great in MySpace and that was awesome, and I like emailed Perez Hilton enough times so he like finally posted a video. Um, this is a whole other story, but um, with that, um, there are ways to get there without a publishing deal.
Are there ways to make noise on the internet to get you the publishing deal? 100%. Speaking of the internet, you were one of the people who said early on, you said the radio is dying and that the internet is taking over. You said that back in 2016, which I think a lot of people did say. But yeah, with that being the case, did you ever see TikTok and and how do you feel about TikTok being such a driver for the music industry today? Um, it has its pros and its cons, right? I think the pro of TikTok is that it really, really gives artists the control if they enjoy it, right? But this isn't new. This is the same thing. There's an amazing panel you can watch on YouTube, and it's a bunch of like old crochety male rock stars and then Madonna, and they're all complaining about MTV. I sort of resent the fact that a kid grows up, you know, listening to the radio and listening to the great music, you know, legacy of music that we have and dreams about playing the guitar or playing the drums, you know, we're musicians. We shouldn't have to make a video [ __ ] this [ __ ] this. Like, we didn't sign up to be like actors; we signed up to be musicians, and all of a sudden has to be an actor. To me, that makes absolutely no sense at all. And Madonna's like, well, I think it's art, and I really [ __ ] love it when you perform on stage, you're acting. I mean, that's a performance. So what's, I mean, if someone puts a camera on you, what's the difference? So that's the same conversation that's happening right now. Some artists don't want to [ __ ] make TikToks. Some of them have a blast. Are some of them who are new and no don't have a record deal? It's their only option, and it's an option that's working. The negative side of it I will say is is that a label can have the best song they've ever had, and if the artist isn't good at TikTok or if the gods of algorithm don't lift it up or what however it works, if the engagement doesn't kick off, sometimes the best song ever that has the [ __ ] record deal and has the budget and has everything is not gonna be heard. And so that's the con. The other side of, you know, the people like, oh, these [ __ ] TikTokers getting record deals. I'm like, it's the same thing as Disney. It's just the new [ __ ] Disney. And some people on Disney deserve their record deals, and some people didn't. And some people on Disney who like maybe people thought didn't deserve the record deal, well, you know, everything's gonna be a breeze, ended up being [ __ ] amazing and like are never going away. So TikTok's the same thing, like some of these people are models on TikTok who shouldn't have record deals, but they do, but some of them are actually amazing [ __ ] singers and songwriters and instrumentalists who do get a record deal, and then they end up being great, you know. So, um, like everything, there's pros and cons, but I like to always focus on the pros because the cons are just exhausting.
Last two questions for you. Awesome. So over the next year, I'm trying to interview a hundred singers, songwriters, and producers. We talked about this earlier, about to repeat it. God has to bless you because God can help you with that. 100 songs? Experience is way too way too much, but maybe a goddess could help you with this endeavor of torture. [Laughter] First on the list was David Foster, second was Coldplay, third Rick Astley, and now you. I mean, I'm in pretty good company. That those people have been like legends for decades. I'm like on year eight. You've been writing songs since 15 though. Yeah, but no one heard any of them until 2014. But okay, go on. I'm interrupting you. I'm sorry. Go on. You haven't even asked the question. So I'm trying to show a different side of the music industry for people to be able to see it, see the behind the scenes, because I feel like people haven't really gotten to see that. Yeah, so my question for you is how many likes does this video have to get in order to show the behind the scenes of one of the songs that you write? Oh, how many likes? Um, I mean, I need your advice on this, like how many likes? I I'm very new to TikTok, so you have to tell me how many likes is worthy of my behind-the-scenes content. I would probably say I I told Coldplay as much as they wanted to do, and uh, Chris said a hundred thousand. Okay, if Coldplay said a hundred thousand, I need to with myself. I'm gonna say fifty thousand. That's too much. I'm gonna say 20. We'll keep it at 50,000. I wanna make sure. Wait, if Coldplay's a hundred, I should really bring this down, but yeah, okay. We'll say 50,000. Let you know what, we'll shake on it with these cheekbones. Let's go fifty thousand. Fifty thousand. Let's do it.
So final question for you. Yeah. Uh, advice for anyone trying to make it in the music industry now, singer-songwriters, producers, or anyone with a dream, anyone trying to make it in the music industry right now? If you're trying to be a singer-songwriter, artist, producer, don't be afraid to make as much music as possible, and don't be precious with it. Like, let it out into the world because that's the only way people are gonna find you. It's the only way people, even if it's not because you might not be trying to go [ __ ] viral and like become an internet sensation, but it's the only way for people to hear you. You have to let it let people hear your music. And then I think the best thing you can do is to collaborate. Um, co-writing songs will change your life immediately. Uh, I always say even if you decide that you [ __ ] hate co-writing, if you like, like make yourself do 10 sessions, you know, like because you will learn so much about who you are as a writer. You will learn your strengths, you will learn your weaknesses. Um, that co-writing changed my life, you know? It's it's how did you find people to co-write with starting out? Yeah, I found people to co-write with through, you know, through my band. It was our last album we made was with Tricky Stewart, and so he introduced me to a couple people. Awesome. And there's a song, uh, on the band's last album called Aviation High that uh, if you're gonna check out my bands, listen to the the band's self-titled song, which is the same patch weapons, but everyone calls it [ __ ] gorgeous because the main lyric is I can't pay my rent, but I'm [ __ ] gorgeous, which was very true at the time. Then there's a song on the last album called Aviation High that my bands and I we all worked on together, but we co-wrote it with this producer named accident who did like Fireball by like Pitbull and like stuff, but like I never thought would make sense with my band, um, and we just tried it, and it really changed the way that I wrote, um, and it really pushed me melodically, um, really made me think about like having the the melody really sink into the drum groove in ways I'd never thought about before, um, and I was like, this is kind of awesome. And then when I asked my publisher to let me write for with and for other people, it was a new collaborator every [ __ ] day. And then when there was people that I wrote really well with, it was then you lean into that, um, and I just learned so it just made my song so much better, and it makes me so much better, like knowing what your strengths are and owning that, um, which I was talking to you before, like I know my strengths are lyrics, I know my strengths are song structure, and I know my strengths are like the more like the more dramatic alternative side of melodies, but if we're looking for like a little detailed pop melody, I'm not even gonna try. Like, why would like there's someone who's better at that than me? Let them be better than me. So co-write, collaborate, and don't be precious. Incredible. It sounds like write a lot of songs, write too many songs and not want to die from how many songs am I, uh, collaborate and put your music out and promote it. Yeah. Incredible. Yeah, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you. Yeah, bring it in. So fun. Star on your hands, kids. This guy's gun. Right back at you.