Transcription
Out of all the religious groups who claim to be Christian, the LDS church, formerly known as the Mormon Church, is the only one who uses temples. Why is that? And why are they forbidden to talk about what happens in there? What are they trying to hide? Is there anything nefarious going on? Or could there be a more simple explanation? All that I know is that secrets like these can be held forever. So I spoke to someone who went to the temple and she talked about everything that she saw in there and it was definitely not what she had been expecting as a young Mormon.
[Music] Hello and welcome back to the Almost False podcast where I interview regular people with incredible stories. Today I had the privilege to talk to someone who grew up in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Most people will know their members as Mormons, but now they prefer to go by Latter-day Saints or LDS for short. We used both terms interchangeably in the interview, but I want to make clear that we don't intend to offend anyone by using that terminology. It's just what it was back then, and it's still what most people outside of the religion know it as.
With that said, Haiti explained what her life looked like as a Mormon in the 80s and '90s, but we spend most of our time talking about what happens inside the temples, which are the bedrock of the LDS religion. You might be wondering why she's talking about it if she's not supposed to. You'll find out. But before we get there, I wanted to set the stage and explain how important her faith was to her even as a young girl because it has a big role to play in what happened later on in her life.
Yes. So by the age of 12, all of this chaos has come to a very big head and the parents got a divorce. My mom ended up moving back to Utah and you know my mom was not coping well with everything that was going on and I ended up having to go with my grandma and I became a ward of the court at about 13 was between 12 and 13. Um and so my grandma remember she's like the age of a normal parent at this point because they got married so young. I mean, my mom's only 19 years uh older than me, and my grandma's only 15 years older than my mom. So, this is not like an old grandma when people think of that. I don't think she was even 50. I don't know. I think she was my age. I think she was like 49 to 50. And I was young. I And I started attending church with her religiously. Everything became about the church. You know, none of her children went through the temple. My uncle became a born again Christian and he was really really um almost scary to me um because he would say crazy things to me that that I was like that can't be true. My grandma would never do that like weird things about the temple and I'm like no way and it I think he was trying to help me but it wasn't helpful at that time because I was a kid. And so then my mom was this Jack Mormon and her oldest son was just in the Navy and not not doing any of that stuff. I think he was basically Jack Mormon. And so, you know, my my youngest uncle was he was on Mission Impossible with my grandpa and they were bikers and so it was he was a sundowner and he was really in that whole situation. So again, I'm surrounded by these people that are going to jail every other week where we're going down to have to visit them and bail them out and different things. And you see your aunt with like toilet paper things in her hair because she's curling her hair with like colored pencil makeup on and it looks really scary. Like as a kid, you're like, "Whoa, what is going on with these people?" So, I seriously immersed myself at this point. And my grandma is putting every faith into me to make it. Like, I am going to be the one that finally makes it and almost breaks this non-active like I'm going to fix this one. And so, she tried a lot. We went all the time. That was all I cared about. That was all I focused on. Um, even dating, like I wasn't allowed to. It's it's in the Mormon church usually you don't date till you're 16 or you have to have a chaperone, which is a good thing anyways because you're a kid. Um, but these things she would do the extra mile for me. She would go with me this, you know, grandma to these dumb movies that are like and sit behind us and make sure we behaved or whatever so I could date and she would buy the prom dresses. like she was very I mean doting on me and I really thought like this is you know she loves me but also I had to do everything she said or it wasn't quite the same.
Okay. So there was pressure and and you're just a kid and there's no I mean there's some weird pressure which I don't even think I mentioned to you but um like they they were so desperate to get me through high school and not to have like a rapid marriage or anything like that that they offered me they had a 280Z 1979 280Z. It was a nice car. was super like fast and they were like we will give you this car on graduation if you're a virgin when you graduate but also they checked sometimes like took me to the doctor like this was not just like my word was nothing. Um so these are very big conditions down to everything in my life everything. And church was absolutely one of those things every um you know activity cuz they do activities through the week. They get together and they do um like a boy girl outing like for ice cream after they go learn a lesson or something or the baptisms for the dead or whatever they're doing that week. And and I was at all that. I was like 100% in like and I had been baptized already by my neighbor. Like I did do everything I was supposed to. So I mean I was just doing everything I should.
So >> okay I really I don't want to go further than this. I want to talk about baptism because I know the baptism in the LDS church as they want to be called now is very different than baptism in you know Christianity or at least there's parts of it that are extremely different. So can you explain what baptism is? What did you have to go through? So the first one's for you and then when you're a teenager, you know, the Mormons are very into genealogy because they feel like they have to do the work for the dead people that have passed away. So say you had all these relatives that were not Mormon and you need to do their work and that means you need to baptize them, you need to seal them to their parents, you need to seal their marriage and do all this ordinance work. That's what the genealogy, that's what all of the temples are for. Literally, that's why they exist. And so, it's all about work for the dead. Every piece of it, except the first time you go through. So, the baptism regular is done in a church, just a regular church. But the temple is where you do these ordinances for the dead. And often times, it's the teenagers that do it. You have to be at least 12 and you have to be morally clean and you have to have had your interview with the bishop which used to happen every six months and they have to ask you very private personal questions and you have to be doing everything you're supposed to do and you should be reading your scriptures and and they make sure you're worthy. They call it worthy. And then if you are deemed worthy, you can go and do baptisms for the dead that either your family has like say my grandma had which she did. she had like a cluster full of names that needed to be done. Or if if your family is all Mormon and you don't have any names, you can go to the temple and they'll give you some names when you get there and they'll have whoever that you know, somebody's family that couldn't do it for themselves. So, they do this often. Um, and I did it a couple times. Yeah.
>> Can you explain the theology behind that? Why would you need to get baptized for someone who's already dead? Well, because they say that these people that die without their ordinances done go to like a big waiting room and they're waiting for you to do this work for them and that they can't proceed to wherever they're supposed to go until this is done. And so, you know, they take this serious like I don't think people realize they did Hitler's work. They did Aunt Frank's work. They've done all the superstars like Elvis and everybody's work. Um, and I actually even have photos of Hitlers because I thought that was wild and they got in a big argument with the churches cuz they were starting to do the Holocaust victims and these people died for what they believed. And so the church, you know, got in trouble for that and they said, "Hey, why don't you cut that out now?" And they said, "Okay, we will." And then they stopped for like six months and started it up again. But and just because you're not in the church, um, doesn't mean you're safe. No. um if they have some way it used to be that they could just do anybody they wanted now they have to have some relation somehow and it became that because people were doing all these people that I'm explaining um but it could be very very very distant cousins like it does not matter so if you are the 27th cousin of some Mormon you just may get baptized in one of their temples after you die and so they actually give you that name and for that day and that baptism and that work, you become that person. So, it's not like you're just doing it, you're doing it by proxy and you are literally becoming whoever that is that they gave you that name. It could be a perfect stranger. Like, it could have been Ava Braun and you didn't know who she was and you're getting dunked for. Like, it doesn't matter. It they do everybody's work. So, it it's wild. Yeah. And that that baptismal font is not a big tub in the basement. It is beneath as well. It is in the lower areas of the church, which is strange, but they have um usually golden oxen, but either way, it's oxen um holding up a big baptismal font. It looks just like the one, you know, from Solomon, if anybody's ever seen that. Um, if if not, you can look it up, but it's usually 12. And they say they represent the 12 tribes of Israel, but there's a lot of speculation we won't go into on that right now, but that's what they say it is. So, we'll go with that.
>> What was your opinion of the LD church LDS church at that point in your life? >> I think there were cracks starting to happen only because I was still going to do everything more so for my grandma than almost anything else because I was very determined to like make her happy. I was this huge burden on their family in the midst of their retirement years and I felt that um and I just wanted to make it as easy and and good as I could basically and do everything they they said that I could. So like grades everything but church too. But I was starting to see little things like racism, you know, this this these years are not that great for racism in the church. And I had a very hard time with this a because we grew up in Idaho around a lot of people from native reservations and I liked them. They were my friends and often times they were my only friends because I wasn't well accepted. I smelled like cigarettes. Um people knew my parents smoked so you were shunned. Um and it it was a situation. So often times those kids would be nice to me where a lot of the Mormon kids wouldn't be nice. And people will say, "Okay, that's just kids." And it is. That's fine. But that was my reality. So I had an extremely hard time thinking these wonderful people could be less than me. Like I never bought into it. Not ever. And my stepdad was very racist as well. So you know, there was threats with with growing up and who we dated and disowning and all that stuff. So, it w it was hard. That part was hard. Yeah.
>> What about people that let's say they're still in the church, they're older, they've been taught these things. What are they supposed to do? They're supposed to forget that this ever happened. >> They definitely don't. And and that is why my grandpa continued to call people porch monkeys literally until he was like in his late 50s. This is unacceptable behavior. But they don't forget. And it was acceptable behavior then. And why did they call that? Because they sat on the fence porch, right? This is the things that they pass on that damage people inadvertently that make you think. And I'm grateful for it because it did make me think. It made me go, I don't think so. I think this sounds crazy, you know. But you don't say that out loud. You just put it in your back pocket and keep going on with your life because you don't want to get in trouble. But yeah, if you do not go through and and receive all the blessings, you cannot become gods and goddesses, priests and priestesses. And that's their wording. You are going to become that one day. So to come to become that, you have to go through the temple. You have to that's it's part of it. So
>> yeah. Well, thank you for talking about it. I want to move on to marriage and marriage and I think marriage in the temple specifically is extremely important in the in the LDS church. I'm having a hard time saying that today. I need to practice. But um can you explain why that's such a big deal? >> So if you don't get married as a woman, you definitely cannot go. Um, we are saved by our husbands, not by God, because we are saved through his priesthood. Yes, God's a part of that, but we have to have a husband. You cannot go through the temple unless you're a missionary. Now, if you're a missionary girl, you can, but you're you are still not going to be elevated to the highest level. And it used to be you had to have three wives to do this. And and the FLDS still hold true to this. If you do not have three wives, if you only got two or something, you're not you're not going to the highest kingdom. So, you might just make it to the lower one because that's the way it is. So, um you want to try and strive to become the top so you can be with your family. And part of that is, you know, the temple marriage sealing to the parents, which you don't have to do if your baby's born under the covenant, which we can talk about here in a minute. Um, but if it if it wasn't like say back in the olden days before the church or whatever somebody was Catholic, you've got to do all that work too. And so you're busy a lot. You know, this is this is the things that they do in the temple. But the first time you go for yourself and that is usually through marriage or a mission, one of the two. Um, you get the same rights as a missionary as you do if you get married. So, you're going through and you're receiving your endowment. And your endowment is before the marriage. So, you have to get that first. And most people separate it by a little bit of time if you're getting married because it takes, well, I've heard they streamlined it now, but it used to take 2 hours or more. Um, and you have to go through, you get a new name, you get, you know, your garments. I don't know if we'll go too much into that right the second cuz we're going to, but you do all the things you need to do to get to get married in the temple. Then the second part is you're going to be sealed in the temple for time and all eternity. Now, this was another one because I did read my Bible that I always had questions on because I was like, wait, I thought there wasn't marriage in heaven, but okay. And and I just, you know, it was like one of those back pocket things that I knew it said that, but I also thought, well, I must not understand it correctly. That's usually what they tell you if you have some weird issue is you don't understand it correctly or we'll figure it out in heaven type stuff. So, we got married. Um me and my husband, I met him. I was 17. He was 25. Um we got married on senior prom instead of going to senior prom. And I wasn't pregnant, but we were we were getting too close to sinning physically. And so my grandma really pushed this marriage. She said, "Well, I don't know if you can wait until later." Cuz we were still going to get married, but we wanted to wait because we barely knew each other. I started dating him in January and it's March. So, and this is common in Mormons. Um, they get married really fast, like know each other 60 days. Also, the reason why there's a lot of divorces here, but it it's just one of those things that that they used to do, maybe they don't now. Um, and so my husband was a convert and we had to wait some time because of that. So after he was deemed worthy, we went through and got got married in the temple. Um,
>> well, let's actually flesh this out cuz I want to know what everything that happens inside of the temple cuz I I believe that this is something secret. Is that correct? Like you're not supposed to talk about anything that happens inside of the temple. >> It's sacred, not secret. Okay. >> That's the name. That's what they'll tell you. Yes, it is also secret. >> Okay. Okay. So, so I want to I want to learn about all of this. So, what happens if is there anything before the temple that that they have you do? And what happens when you enter the temple? >> So, before you go, you have to have your interviews. You have to take the temple preparedness class. They should change the name of that because you are not prepared for anything that's going to happen. and and they really I think they're just seeing if you're going to go along like is this person stable enough to go along to get along because I think that's what they're checking for. I can't prove that but they do like talk about the gospel and different things. They they do some lessons with you and you have to pay your tithing. um you have to pay your full tithing and you pay your tithing on your full uh you have taken your IRS documents at tithing settlement and you have to pay on your gross not your net and so if you're short you have to make that up um you can't be short and so or you can't go uh they ask you if you're morally clean if you look at porn if you masturbate and if you do do that type of situation you have to explain how and when and where and what you liked and all the details of every little thing. And they're writing this in your permanent folder that's there forever and ever that you can never see. But um they do this and make sure that you're all legit and that you're following, you know, you believe you sustain the prophet, you believe in Joseph Smith, all those things. And then eventually you get to go. Now this is like supposed to be the best day of your life. Like you have literally well for me and for most people growing up in it. Not my ex-husband because he didn't grow up in it. It is something you've literally talked about since you could talk it. It's don't you want to go to the temple someday? There's hymns about going to the temple. They give young women hank. I still have a handkerchief that's all white. You don't want to soil yourself like a soil on this handkerchief may never be the same. So you can take this with you when you're perfect and go through the temple. someday. And I'm not saying chastity is not good. It's great. But it's a lot of pressure for those that might make some, you know, misstep. Um, and so you're you're really nervous, but you're really excited. And you don't wear your wedding clothes that you would normally wear. Now, I was being sealed. I'd already been married for a while. But for people that haven't been, they have a wedding dress that they would like to wear that day. But when you're actually doing all these covenants, you're not really wearing that. You're wearing the costume that they give you um and their sacred clothing. And so, and I can talk about those, but you have to get those before you go and you have to buy those. And I remember for me and my husband, it was a lot for us because we were struggling. We were just young. I I mean, I was a kid. I wasn't even graduated when we got, you know, married and then we had a baby. And so eventually I went to school and stuff, but my grandma helped us with that. And sometimes people will hand down certain special things. You wear a white dress or the man can wear a suit and then a plain dress like just like a just plain white dress. And then you wear a one-sided robe that's sold by them. and then a sash and slippers and stockings and your garments. And then um women wear a veil, but I don't think they any longer have to veil their face. Um and we can talk about that. And then the men have like a baker's hat kind of looks like a a baker's hat, like a baker um like a Pillsbury Doughboy baker. And they wear all that. And then you have a green apron, a fig leaf apron. I think that's all the clothes. I'm pretty sure. And so you you have all that and then you go in for the very first you have like a envelope that keeps all this stuff in inside a suitcase and and you haven't put everything on yet because you're going to go to initiatory. And initiatory is when you get naked. Well, now they've changed it. But this is what happened for me. Um and for my other family it was far worse because they told me later when I cried. Um um so you get naked and put a poncho on like like a real poncho from Mexico, like open sides and just your head, you know, and it barely covers you. You're in a back room with only women. I was not touched sexually. I want to put that out there first. This is weird enough. We don't need to make it sensationalized. That's not what this is. And these women come in to give you your initiatory where they anoint you with oil. And this is the washing and anointings. Well, they used to do it. They used to literally wash you in a tub and anoint you with oil cuz my great grandma told me, "Quit crying." And that's what happened to her. And I was like, "I will quit crying cuz that is bananas." Um, so I sucked that up real quick cuz I just felt uncomfortable. I was like 9 months pregnant when this is going on and I'm just really fat and sad and uncomfortable and I'm naked with this poncho on and this lady's there and I can't figure out why is this lady here like get her out of here. Like where is this guy? Like all my life I've been told a woman cannot give a blessing and I'm sitting here going what is happening? Like why is she here? She can't do this. This is like a fake. This is like a fake. And so I told my grandma where's the guy? and she's like, "Oh, it's different in the temple." And I didn't know what that meant then. Um I do now, but I was flipping out kind of. I I was like, "No, this is going to not be legitimate. I mean, I was so worried about this." And she was like, "It is, you know, like stop." So, they touch you over your chest, not on your breast, but like above above your belly button, on the your inner thigh. They touch you all these different places and give you blessings and stuff all along the way. And then at that point, you get your garments after they're done and you put those on and your whole outfit that I explained and you um get ready to go into the ceremony. And you also get your new name doing that during that time before I'm pretty sure that's when it is. It's been so long. But you get a name and you are never to tell this name to anyone except one time your husband at the veil that day. And if you forget it, you got to call the temple and you got to go through a whole ceremony to tell your husband again or whatever if he forgot. It's it's a situation. You can't just tell him. You can't just be like, "Hey, it's whatever." No, it's not like that. So,
>> what what about people with Alzheimer's? They always just say, "Oh, that God will figure that out." Like they never tell you like a good answer. They're just like, "Oh, God knows that." So, you know, probably a pass and they'll be fine. But yeah, so this is just the part where you're just even getting ready to go into that room. And it looks like the Garden of Eden. And it used to be a movie or live. A live ceremony is like a play. And it's just like the it's very much similar to the masonic ceremonies. And they talk about the fall and they talk about, you know, Adam and Eve being kicked out of the garden and Satan is there and and he's a part of this whole thing. And it's it's very interesting like it shows basically the cosmology from the beginning of the earth to later like clear later after Joseph Smith.
>> So that's right after the the anointing. They show you kind of Did you see like a movie kind of thing? >> Yep. You go sit down. Women sit on one side, men sit on the other. And you're watching the movie and you don't have your green apron on yet. It's on your lap. Everybody has one, but nobody has it on. And at some point during the ceremony, Adam is kicked out of the garden. Like we know the story's pretty similar other than Lucifer is a part of the story. I mean, he's the brother and they're arguing and that whole war we're in heaven thing is in this. And so they're you know also Michael is in this uh the archangel Michael and and there's discussion with God and God is sending them people and and so you know they get kicked out of the garden because Eve bit the apple and um Adam is crying out to the Lord because he's alone and he's crying out to the God of this world and then Lucifer shows up and So I I always thought this was funny. Like back then I was like, "Wait, what?" Like, and nobody explains any of this. You're just like there. And so they say, "Okay, well he comes and he has a black apron, not like ours, not green, not fig leaves. It's black." And Adam says, "What is that?" And he says, "This is a a an example of a symbol of my powers and priesthoods." And he says, "Oh." And then he's like, "You better you better find something to cover up, too." And so you you should have one like me. And then everybody stands and you put your apron on at this point. And I'm like, why are we doing what he says? This seems so strange. Like I'm I'm A1 freaking out by this point. PS. Like a lot of stuff is super weird. It's got a weird feeling. I'm not completely hyperventilating, but I'm not I'm not doing good. I'm not doing I'm not okay. And I'm thinking, what are they doing? And then so we get done with the whole Adam and Eve part and they're praying around. They say, "Okay, we're going to do the prayer circle now." So they have people come up from the women's side and the men's side and they form a circle around the altar and they do what's called the true order of prayer. And you raise your hands up and down three times. And they used to say plelay l, but now they say, "Oh God, hear the words of my mouth." And they're praying over this list now because they print it. But back then it was a book of all these people that needed help. Like if if anybody ever says if you were to say, "I'm sick," to your Mormon friend, they'll say, "Oh, I'll put your name on the temple list." Well, this is what they're praying over with this weird chanting and in a circle and bring your hand to the square and all these weird things that it looks very typhonian. I mean, if people look up a typhon uh maneuver, it it's almost identical. And you know, even X when I put into Grock, like what what is this particular ceremony the closest to? It says Babylonian. it it's it's not Christian it's not a Christian right that we're doing it's very Masonic and so we're doing that they also um you know, do all the symbols they show you everything that you need to know to get to the veil and it's a big curtain behind the people doing this chant and they're going through it to try and show you the signs and tokens that you need to know before you get there and then you've got to go up there. Okay, now I really am flipping out because I'm like, "This seems super weird." Like, "I don't know about all this." Like, they're chanting. Like, it just was scary to me. And and people say, "Well, oh, you're just being a baby." Like, there was nothing outwardly luciferian. Like, at that time, I didn't know anything about anything, but I was scared. I just had this horrible feeling like almost to leave. And they do give you an option. They do. They get up and say, "Before we go to the veil, is there anybody that like wants to leave?" I think it's at the veil, but at some point they give you the option to bail, but your whole family is there. And your husband's on the other side like waiting for you to finish this. I mean, there was no way. There was no way I was leaving. I mean, there was so many people there. And so, you just do what you're supposed to do and you learn all those secret handshakes, which are extremely masonic. um they rename them, you know, it's like the true sign of the nail or other other words um that are more Christianized. And you go to the veil and there's a guy behind there that's fake God. And first your husband goes and and he does the signs and symbols to get past the angels and sentinels that guard like the opening to heaven. And so you have you have to know all of them to get past. And if you forget, you're in trouble. like you ha you have to go a lot. They tell you go a lot so you will remember these. And so he got up there and he did it. And it used to be more intimate because it used to be just like the Masons where they'd go breast to breast but like these are all guys behind the veil and it and it became an issue like like the church had to say no more of that because there was an obvious issue sometimes with the men after that happened. So, no more of that. They just they they got rid of that and you still do the things, but you're not like that close. And you you whisper to them all the different things and you stick your hand through these holes like there's all these holes in there and your husband does it first and then he goes in and then you're going to tell him your name. He tells his name, does his symbols, goes through the veil first, then it's your turn and you do it and and you tell your name and you do your symbols with your husband because he is your salvation. We only have the priesthood through our husbands. That's the only reason we will have salvation in the end days. So, so that happens. And then once you go through the veil, you're in the celestial room, which is beautiful. It's very nice. It's all white um or like white gold beigy um very pretty no expense spared and you can sit there for a while if you want to and just you know think and sit or you can go you've been there hours by this point. Um so most people just go but if you have a question about the temple you have to ask it in the temple. So a lot of times that could be your place where you might be able to have time but also everybody's sick of it. they want to go and they're tired and hungry and whatever. And I mean, yeah, I tried to talk to my grandma a couple times and always her answer was they'll figure it out in heaven. So that was that. And yeah, then you're done and you're confused and you leave and you're just like, I hope I never have to do that again. But you do. You do have to do it again and again and again and again because now you're going to do it for dead people every single time you go after that. So that is it the same ritual every time. If you get baptized for the dead, that's the same ritual that you do.
>> Yep. Same ritual for the baptism, same ritual for going through the temple. So they say if you do a whole bunch of them, which they encourage you to go, like they literally sit you down and say, "We encourage you to go to the temple at least two times a month. You need to go." And so you are only doing this this part that I'm telling you. And the anointings is is different. you can sign up to do anointings or you can sign up to do the ceremony or you can sign up to do the weddings like the ceilings. And so it freaked me out so bad I started just doing the ceilings because I did not like it. I w I went a few more times and I was like, you know what? If we got to go to the temple, I'd rather do the weddings. Like it's better. And so we did a lot of ceilings. Um and you know, you're just doing work for the dead. Every single other thing other than the first time you go through is all work for the dead. Every single bit of it for everyone. Not just for me, for anyone.
>> So, how many times did you go through this ceremony? >> I don't even know. A lot. I don't know. It it it was a lot because you wanted to go and they would have ward Temple night where you go with the ward which is like your group of church people. You go with them. So everybody goes together and then they like try to make it fun. Like they also have a cafeteria in the basement and you could they they serve actually really good food for cheap there. You can go down there afterward and eat. Some people this is their date night. Some people this is like what they do. My grandma lived basically lived at the temple. She loved it. She was there all the time like constant. I just want to know what's the purpose of this and then I think there's another step afterwards for the for the marriage but but like just in short because I it's you probably could go on for like an hour explaining what it is but like what's the purpose of it? >> You you have to have these keys. If you do not have these um keys you cannot go to heaven to you can't pass the angels and sentinels guarding heaven and so celestial kingdom. So you you have to do it for other people. Like you did it for yourself and you hope you remember when you die. So also it's to help you remember, but also you have to do this for your family or for poor people that are just sitting there waiting for you to do this. I mean they'll tell you that. So you know this is critical to every time they build a new temple like anytime people see this. It isn't for the living really. It's only for the living once. Like it would be a one and done. And I mean, unless you got remarried or somebody died, like then you can get married again, whatever. But this is mostly about work for the dead. I would say one out of 10 times. Even probably more than that, honestly. It's mostly about dead people. >> Nine out of 10 times it's for dead people. >> Yeah. Or more. Probably more to be honest. So after what you talked about the Adam and Eve ceremony and then going through the veil with your husband entering the celestial room, are you done? I is that it? Nope. You get sealed in the temple and it's kind of like they do a short talk like somebody presides over your wedding. Your wedding all the people are sitting. It's not at all like a regular wedding. You don't come in. There's no du no death no death part. know, you know, with this ring, Ivy, wet, none of that. Um, they have their own ceremony that they do and talk about time and all eternity and you, it's like a padded altar and you look into these mirrors. So, they're facing each other where they create kind of like a portal look like a portal forever and they tell you to look in those mirrors after the ceremony and they say, you know, look, you're going to be together forever just like this. you can see each other forever and ever, which I mean I didn't know anything about anything uh back then. So any witchcraft, weird stuff, whatever, I I didn't know. So I just knew this was what we were doing that day. Um and after that, you know, you pack up and you're done for the day. And then you go, if you were a brand new married couple, like new, you would go change then into your wedding dress. now is the first time you've probably worn it. Uh some people do choose to wear it at the altar when but you're kneeling. It's like cumber cumbersome. They've actually said you cannot have big giant dresses anymore. If you do want to wear it in the temple, it's not allowed because it was becoming a problem like trying to accommodate them to sit you know kneel on this altar. So they have literally come out with different things where they're like, "No, you you can't wear that crazy dress in here." So a lot of people just choose to not wear it until they're going out of the temple and they change into their their outfits and then they come out of the temple and that's the picture you often see with, you know, their flowers up in the air and they look like they just got married in there. They didn't wear any of that in there. No, unless it was the white suit. I mean, if a guy wore an all-white suit, maybe, but no. And then your family, if they're not worthy, they can't be there. They can't come in there. Um, so then you have a reception. And that's where most people used to just have a reception and that was it. But now they're kind of doing mock weddings because so many people miss it. I mean like you're talking about people that intermar with other faith and change and so or people that aren't worthy like my my parents wouldn't have been able to go. They didn't go. My my parents weren't at my wedding um in the temple but you know my grandma was there but yeah. No. And so they do their own little thing now and kind of recreate a wedding like a normal wedding. So, I've heard that there's oaths that you take for the wedding. Um, when does that happen and what is it? >> They do the oaths in the Garden of Eden room before. They used to be quite severe um back then and they would h they still I don't know how they've changed it now. Like for my grandma, she made a blood oath, which doesn't mean they spilled blood. It just meant that she would cut out her tongue or cut her boughels out or whatever before she would do what I'm doing right now and spill the secrets. Okay, for me, they had gotten rid of the necklitting thing. And that was what scared me so bad when I was a kid. My uncle said this to me and I was like, "You're crazy." Like my grandma would never do that. And I was like, "You didn't do that, right, grandma?" Nope, I didn't do that. So, uh, she just lied. And I mean, I asked her about it later. They got rid of that, but they still made you swear oath. And and they're very serious. And the Masons swear the same type of O. So, yeah, it's just that you won't you won't do what I'm doing. You won't tell. You'll never tell. So, they used to blood atone people for real sometimes. Like there's no proof that Bighgam had this happen, but there is proof that he organized it and then people went and did this to people. So yeah.
>> So how were you coming out of this? You said you had like temple classes, temple preparedness classes, and you're like that does not prepare you at all for the temple. Coming out of this strange ceremony where you're listening to Lucifer and you have these things, you make a an oath. What was your reaction after that? Did did it kind of change your view a little bit on Mormonism since the temple is so instrumental in the faith and now you actually knew what it was about? >> It was nothing what I thought and I was completely freaked out. I was very disillusioned. Um, you know, they say that these things back in the day when they would do these in the mystery religions, okay, they would do them and put them in a different frame of mind before they would go through this stuff with usually drugs. Well, the Mormons don't do that. So, they do this by leaving you completely unprepared. And I don't I know for a fact from all the things I've read, all the emails I get, everything I'm not the only one that's been completely freaked out. And and that is what they use to change the frame of mind when you're in there. I don't think it's an accident that they don't prepare you for this. I think that that's the point because it's going to embed in your memory differently if it's traumabased mind stuff. Um, and that's exactly what it was for me. Now, for me, I will fully admit with my abuse uh history, I think that had a big piece of why I extra didn't do good in there. Uh nobody prepares people for that. Nobody thinks about that when they're going through this stuff that, oh, maybe this person psychologically isn't going to be okay. Like, no, I wasn't okay. But also, I knew enough to know one thing. I needed to compartmentalize that and go to my party. And that was what I did. And I compartmentalized that for a long time. I tried to talk to my grandma about it. She didn't want to hear that. She loves the temple and it's beautiful and you just don't understand. And you know, I didn't understand. She was absolutely correct. I I had no idea what this had to do with going to heaven. I had so many questions. But everybody always just tells you like it'll work itself out in heaven. Like this is what we need to do. These are the ordinances placed by Joseph Smith, which is true. And he was a master mason. And he put these in to effect four weeks after he went through the Masonic temple ceremony. So I mean they can say it's not like the Masons, but it is. And so it is what it is there. I didn't even know what a Mason was to be honest. That would have never crossed my mind at that point. But I was confused and I I felt very lied to. I felt like this was supposed to be beautiful and it wasn't beautiful and it was weird and I didn't like it and I was scared and I continued to be scared and
I still did it again and again for quite some time. How long did it take for you to, cuz you can tell that some cracks there, there, there already were some cracks as a child, especially with the racism stuff. You're like, I don't understand why these friends are like, are different than me. But it seems like the temple introduced some bigger cracks. When did it start to like get big to the point that you started to question whether Mormonism was true or not?
So for people to understand this, I think we have to understand that I went through in 199, 1996. So the internet was not like, like it is now at all, and I didn't know so many things, right? Like, and I never would have looked because that's anti-Mormon propaganda, and you don't do that. So you do what you're told, even with the cracks there for a very long time. Um, I was what, 20 when I went through. I did not get out of Mormonism until I was 37. So, or 34. Let's see. I think it was, no, 34. Sorry. Um, 37 is when I got sick. Anyway, so I, I did pull away a little bit, but I still was mostly in for a long time.
And then me and my husband were having all kinds of problems because I, he apparently thought we were polygamists, and I didn't. And I say that jokingly, but like, really, he was, um, dating a girl that I didn't know he was dating, and she really was a polygamist. And I think somewhere in his mind, he thought this was going to work out for him or something, but definitely not for me. Mainstream Mormonism does not put the stamp of okay on this. I don't know what he was doing in his mind, but he was on drugs. So, I had my family and I'm telling them like, we have to like break up. Like, this is not, this is not good, and he won't leave her alone. It's not like it happened once, and they kept saying, "No, you have to go back. You're married for time and all eternity. Like, this is your husband forever. You, you need to go back and make this work." And I'm like, "Okay." So I did, and we were kind of separated, living together, basically. I'm going to school at this time and trying to get my nursing career because I could clearly see he was not very stable, and we, I needed to raise these kids. Now, at this point, I've got two, but he had one before we got married, and we also had got custody of her, and so we have three girls at this point, and I am just working myself to death. I'm working full-time. I'm going to school full-time. I'm just trying to do anything I can to keep my bills paid and keep people fed because he is just all over the place. And by, you know, the time my daughter, she was maybe only two, I, I'd really had it by then. I, I just couldn't keep doing it. And so I ended up divorced. Um, I actually didn't get divorced for two and a half more years because he ran off on some drug thing and I couldn't find him. It was to the point where I was going to have to run a newspaper ad to get a finalization. But you have to remember, this, in the church's eyes, I am not divorced from him to this day. I am not. And so, you can't get a temple divorce unless you're going to have another man take his place. And, and I didn't have that. I was just this, this woman trying to figure out how to raise these kids, and he took off and whatever.
So I ended up meeting somebody different, and this is when I'm closer to 30, and he grew up around Mormonism. He was from Idaho, so it's a little less there, honestly. Even though it's like one state apart, it's different. It still rules the world, but for him, his parents weren't Mormon. He did go to Boy Scouts. He, his best friend was Mormon. He was still immersed in the, the whole thing, but he never did that. And so we decided, you know, maybe we would go through and go back together. So we started the temple prep classes and all the things. And, and he, you know, knew that I was, I mean, obviously he knew I was a Mormon, like I wore garments still and the whole deal. So like, he knew that was important to me. And, and I knew he wasn't 100%, but I felt like he was getting there. And then the day came where, like I said, if your babies are born under the covenant, which means you're married in the temple and you have a baby, that baby's automatically sealed. Even though I was 9 months pregnant, that baby was automatically sealed. We didn't have to do anything. Like my stepdaughter, if we wanted her sealed to us, which we tried to do, you would have to get the mom's permission and have them sign a thing. It's a whole big thing. And then like take the family and have us all sealed together. Well, so that I was like thinking in my mind, I'm going to have to do this with my son because we had had a son. And so when do we need to do this? He's a baby. What do we need to do? And then it got quiet in the room because everybody kind of knew the history of of my ex-husband because he'd been brought before a council and everything on all this bad stuff. And so it's in the notes, you know, they keep notes on everybody. And I said, "So when do we go through?" And he goes, "Well, you don't have to." And I'm like, "Wait, no, I have to. I have a baby with him. Like, we want him sealed to us. My husband is there, my new husband." And, and he said, "Well, no, you don't have to because that baby was born under the covenant." And I said, "No, because that's my ex-husband. What are you talking about?" And he said, "Well, they just changed places. It's really not a big deal." He totally tried to like smooth this over. And my ex-husband said, "Wait a minute. Are you telling me that her ex-husband that doesn't take care of the kids that I take care of that I love is the ghost dad of my son?" That's how he said it, the ghost dad. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, here we go." And, and he, I don't think I've ever seen him turn more red, like from anger. He's a redhead, so it was like extra red. And he was done. He was like, "I don't know what is going on here, but this is crazy. I'm done." So, that ended that.
Uh, I still stayed in for a little bit. I, I mean, I was like, "This is bad, but also I don't know what else to do." Like, I'm extremely close to my family. They're all still Mormon, but my mom, like, and they make fun of her constantly. Like, I, I honestly didn't know what to do. Like, people can say they don't make fun of people and that they try to fellowship them and they're nice. They are. But also they say certain things that are kind of crappy. Like, she just doesn't know. She doesn't have the fullness of the church. She doesn't know. So, you know, I didn't want to be that. And I knew it was worse for me because I did know. I'm an apostate. I know. I have been through. So, I didn't know what to do. I just didn't do anything at that point. I just kept going and praying about it, and I, I didn't know what to do.
And shortly after that, I got really sick and I almost died a couple times. So, I got thyroid cancer, and then I had an autoimmune disorder on top of it, and it was already stage three by the time they found it. And I was, I was sick. I had to go through radiation. And I mean, you know, God was at the forefront, but religion certainly wasn't. I wasn't thinking about all that anymore. I was just thinking about God. And it gave me that time to really, I think, finalize in my brain like, I don't think that's what God is. Like, I, I'm just going to read my Bible, just the real Bible, not the Joseph Smith's translation, not, you know, the Book of Mormon, like none of this stuff. And I'm reading, and I, I just, I just didn't feel good about it. So, I went through my radiation. I wasn't sure if I was going to live, you know, and, and when you get to that point, that changes your perspective pretty fast. Like, honestly, if you ever want to change your perspective, have a near-death experience, it will be a real eye-opener for anybody. Don't do it on purpose. Um, but if that happens to you, you get it. And I just started thinking, you know what? I don't care. I'm not, I'm not just going to follow along anymore.
After I came out of it and I was better and I was doing better, I still had to do gamma globulin therapy for a long time. And that, that made me really sick. We were losing everything too at this time. Like, we lost, we fully had to file bankruptcy because the bills, it was crazy just to keep me alive. And my ex-husband was not prepared for any of this. Like, we were more newly married. He had never been married before. He probably could have ignored me for all of it, and I still would have been fine about it. But he didn't take care of the kids. And the kids had to take care of the kids. And there was animosity there because it was like a 12-year-old and a baby. Like, it, it just kind of robbed her, you know? Even my next one down. I mean, it just had to, like, what do you do with that? You know, I was sick in a bed. Like, there was no way. Um, and I was having multiple operations. Like, I couldn't even hold him for multiple periods of time. Like, because my hands went bad. This autoimmune thing, like I ended up having surgery on both my hands, and they were like, like this for a while, casted. I mean, I couldn't even, I couldn't even hold him. So, that, that all happened, and I get, I get better eventually, but our marriage definitely didn't. It was not very fixable, and he was not, he was not going to change. And I, I just didn't know how I felt being with somebody after that that, is this going to be like, till death do you, like, this is how it's going to be? Like, if I get sick again, are you really going to be like this or whatever? And then also, you're blaming God for everything, and you hate God now. Like, I just couldn't, I couldn't do that. It was weird for me. And we waited quite some time because I thought maybe he was just mad and he might come around, but that didn't. To this day, it's, he's a non-believer. And we went our separate ways. We have our son. He's almost 18 now. He's, he's been a great dad. I can say he's 100% been there. But, you know, I had met my husband a little bit after I got better. Actually, I knew him. We both were going through divorces, and it was weird. We, we knew each other from like a carpool thing, and then we played Words with Friends, and he would just check on me every once in a while, and it would make me bawl because I'm like, "Gosh, you're like the first person that's checked on me today, but thank you." Yeah. Like, it, it was really hard.
So, just to detangle a little bit. So there was the first husband who got, wanted you to be polygamous, and you got a divorce from him. Then there was a second husband that had a, like, a very hard time struggling with your, your cancer. Um, and then you talked about your current husband, which which came afterwards. Yes.
So if anyone hadn't understood that, then there you go. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of confusing. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, my question is, so your second husband, because of all the hardships you were going through, that made him completely reject the idea that God was real. And it's something that happens a lot when people go through struggles in life, their worldview often times shifts, you know, deep shifts in different directions, but for a lot of people, it changes. So my question is for you, what did that period of your life, uh, how, or how did that impact the way you viewed God, the way that you viewed the world, and all of it?
I mean, I think I really understood a few things about myself is I was not going to stay with a non-believer. And I also knew that I was not going to stay a Mormon, and nobody else knew that except for my new husband because he was an ex-Mormon. And I had shared some things with him like writing back and forth, and, and I was like, "I just don't know if I can do this, like, whole, like fakery." Like, I already knew, but I just didn't want to tell anybody because I knew what was going to come for me, and it did. Um, and I was scared. I was more scared to be facing that whole situation than almost anything. I, I mean, I almost literally based my salvation on it. I almost stayed because I just didn't want to deal with it. And I knew what they had done with my mom, not an apostate. I knew what was coming for me. And it was scary because my grandma was kind of, my grandpa had passed away. Like, my grandma was this last critical person, and, and I was terrified, you know, like my whole family members that I'd hung out with and been with, and great-grandmas and uncles and like family that you get together with all the time, and they're all Mormon. So, I knew what was coming, other than my dad's side. Like, I was going to lose my family.
What I'm very curious about is the transition of your faith. Um, like I've already said, you know, there were cracks, bigger cracks, and I think your, your, your cancer was a, a big part of you starting to look into some of the things that you had doubts or questions about. Can you, uh, give me some examples of the things that you found during that period of time that made you question even more and that kind of got you convinced that you shouldn't be in the LDS church?
So, there's something called the CES letter, and, and Mormons and ex-Mormons will know what this is, but for those that don't, you can look it up online. And it is kind of the church's, um, way of trying to fix things, but they kind of made it worse. They let out all this information, and, and I was really already studying the Bible and seeing, okay, these are not, this is not biblical. This does not match up. I was journaling every day. Um, I was taking it very serious, and I hadn't really done that before. Like, as far as like, yeah, I devoted everything to Mormonism, but as far as just the Bible only, no Book of Mormon, none of that, just the Bible. And I, I would get up and read every morning, journal every morning, like pray about it, just everything, just immersing myself in anti-Mormon propaganda. They're actually just shows talking about the Bible and the differences between Mormonism and the Bible. One of those people that was critical for me was Derek Prince. Um, I would listen to him. Like, I just didn't know anything about so many things. Like, they don't talk about spiritual warfare. They don't talk about all of these different things. And I, I started seeing, you know, the CES stuff coming out. I started seeing there, there were problems with the church as far as their own stuff, and they're trying to blanket it. I'm looking it up for myself. Starting to see weird symbolism. I started learning about masonry, which I didn't know anything about. And I started seeing, "Oh, that kind of looks like what we do," or "This kind of looks like what we do." And I hadn't even gotten into the witchcraft stuff or any of that part yet, but like, that comes way later. And I just had enough where I was like, "This is, this is not true." And my husband was like, "Yeah, no kidding. Like, read this. Look at this." You know, and he'd already been out. And so he's trying to help me, you know, also through this whole time. And, and so I am evolving, but I'm also evolving like in who I was as a person. Now, I was definitely a baby Christian still, but I, I was starting to get things. Like, I was starting to see, "Oh, oh, they don't believe in this part of the Trinity. They, and I don't think Jesus was made by a sexual act." Like, I mean, there were some things that I knew that they had definitely covered up in my lifetime, not because somebody told me, because I learned it. And so I was like, "This is just, this isn't true." Like, Joseph Smith was always translated the book by the Urim and Thummim, my whole entire life. That's what I was told. And then all of a sudden it was a, a rock and a hat, and that was a joke, right? Because like South Park came on, and the church had a fit, and it's actually historically accurate. And I remember thinking, "This is such a big lie. Like, how stupid are they? Like, they're so stupid." Like, you just think you're so smart, anyways, when you, you know, know everything, and I didn't know everything, clearly, because I didn't know that. And I'm like, "Okay, so if this is a lie, what else is a lie?" And you kind of do that with everything. And I don't even care about the polygamy because honestly, they've kind of been honest about it to the, I mean, they didn't say Joseph Smith was one, but I was like, "Big deal. Like, everybody else was so, like, okay, I'm not surprised he hid it or whatever." That didn't rock me. Like the rest of the things I was learning rocked me. Like the theology part for me was way bigger. And even to this day, I don't highly focus on polygamy other than the fact that, you know, a lot of times the way people have to live that way, it's sad and bad, but it, it had nothing to do with like Joseph Smith, you know? I, I didn't know what was going on with that, but I did know this other stuff. And so I wanted to study more about like, well, what did I do in the temple? Like, what? Well, okay, Derek Prince is saying all this stuff, and you can put curses on your life to the third and fourth generation, and it's in the Bible, and he gave me the verse, and I looked it up, and it, it's there. So then, have I cursed my kids? Like, did my grandma curse her kids? Are we all in this mess because they're all Mormon, and we all cursed our kids? Like, what is going on here? And so, I wanted to like get curses off of me. I wanted to learn how to do that. I didn't know how to do that. I still had Mormon stuff all over my, I saw my temple clothes. Like, the first thing I did was get rid of that stuff. Like, I listened to a, a podcast, like an audio one with Derek Prince. He's like, "Go through your house." You'd be shocked at how many weird things are in your, just anybody's house, not just a Mormon, anybody's house. You collect things. You go on vacation or whatever. Like, go through your house and pray. And I did. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I got to get rid of a bunch of stuff." So then I was getting rid of a bunch of stuff, um, going through and trying to, you know, just make my home more of a sanctuary, become a better person, you know, read more my actual Bible and the words of the Bible, not what somebody tells me, you know, have my own knowledge. And then the internet got big, right? And then you could look things up. And the church knew it, too. The church was like, "Doubt your doubts, don't doubt your faith." This is a real slogan they came out with because they were freaking out. They were like, "Oh my gosh, like, it's all going to be everywhere." Like, if you know the right search words, you can find it. And you, you know, they were freaking out. So then the rest of the puzzle pieces were coming in rapidly at this time. And I'm also wanting to help other people. Like, I'm thinking to myself like, "Oh, my mom helped me. She planted tiny seeds for a long time that were did not bear any fruit for years upon years and decade of Christianity, just born again Christian, no denomination." And I remember rejecting it, thinking it was weird, just everything you could be rude about, but nice to her face. But like, "No, she just doesn't know." You know, she saw those fruits come to fruition over a decade later. So I always tell people, don't give up. Like, that mustard seed, that whole parable is very important.
So, so I'm curious about, uh, cuz it seems to me like you going out of Mormonism was, it's not like it happened in one day. It was a very gradual thing that there might not be like a time that you could say like, this, I was a Mormon, then this day I wasn't a Mormon. Uh, but from what you said, it seems like it's the lies that the church was was telling was the thing that really kind of made it for you because you had been there, you had received their teachings, and then they said, "No, that never happens or that's not true," and all of that. And so, you know, I've, I've heard a YouTuber say recently like, "How, how many lies does it take for someone to become a liar?" Right? And so, if they lie about something, how, how many more things do they lie about? Can you trust them?
So, that's super, super interesting. Were there some things that were very difficult to get rid of? Cuz this is your whole life. This is, I mean, your whole family history. Your grandma was very involved. So how, how was it from the point that you kind of realized that no, this church is lying, that I don't, I shouldn't trust them, to kind of get rid of all the conditioning that you had grown up with?
It was a lot. They, I think most Mormons come out of the church exactly how I kind of explained it, and I did get rebaptized later and a lot of things, you know, all that. But they call it having your shelf break, and they, what they say is, you can put this book on there, and this book on there, and each one represents a lie. So how many books until that shelf breaks, right? And that's what Mormons call it when they leave because nobody just up and leaves it. Well, I won't say nobody, but most people are like me. It's a gradual because we know what's going to happen. Okay, apostates are not treated well. We're not. To this day, I'm not. Um, it's not a fun place to be. Like in your neighborhood, with your in-laws, with your family, with whoever, it's hard. And so, but I knew it was right. And I knew I had to do these things. Like, I'm going through all these different curses, or I'm going through all this different learning. I'm going through, you know, "Hey, I have all these dead people flowers in my house. Like, maybe this is a bad freaking idea." Like, these were on people's coffins because Mormons are super weird about stuff like this. And, well, maybe not all, but my family, we'll just say that. And my grandma would encase like the funeral flowers from everybody like in a jewelry box, and they were fancy. And then she would do it with another thing. I had like four or five of these dead people things because everybody was dying at the time. And I, I was like, "No, I, I'm going to get rid of all of it." It was, I mean, this is like things I loved. Like, that they were like heirlooms given to me because my grandma passed away because even though she came for me and it was this horrible last three years, my rest of my life with her still mattered. Like, she still was important to me. Or my grandpa's stuff, or, or whatever. And like, especially my grandpa's like temple clothing, or, or very special things that I'm like, "This is just, this can't be in my house." Or like antiques, you know, like there were antiques. Legit antiques. One was like an old-fashioned temple comb that was super old, and I was like, "I don't even want to sell it because what if it is a curse, and then I sell it to somebody?" Like, I just, yeah, I just had to get rid of stuff. And so it was hard because it was so many things, even down to my picture of Jesus on the wall. And I was like, "That's Mormon Jesus." And as you learn about Mormon Jesus, which people get mad when you say that, but it's true. Like, it's a different Jesus than Jesus. And, and he looks different, and he's, you know, there's a certain look about that particular thing. And even they say like in the Bible, we really shouldn't even have stuff like that because we don't know what he looked like, and what if you're hanging, you know, a picture on the wall and it's not him. And so like, I just got into this whole thing where I was like, "Oh my gosh, I'm literally going to have to get rid of this picture I've had since I was 16 of Jesus that's framed and nice and like I really care about this." Yeah, it's, it wasn't easy, and it, and it wasn't overnight either. I think some of that took some time. The temple clothes were probably some of the hardest things I got rid of. Even though I knew it was bad, like bad, I still felt like, I don't know, like I felt like I owed it. I don't know. It was weird. It was almost like a tie. And I think that's exactly what it is. You know, it's a soul tie, and it's necromancy, whether they want to believe that or not. You know, some of, a lot of the things I say on my program, which we don't go into today, show those weird things. And those were especially the things that scared me that I was like, "Oh, I don't want to be a part of that." You know, and, and you have to, you have to look at the whole picture. You can't just look at your neighbor. That's nice because he's a Mormon. That's great. He probably knows nothing about what I'm talking about every day of my life. But you have to look at the theology, and that means all of it. Even the stuff they chuck out and say that's not true anymore. It matters. If it didn't matter, everybody could reinvent a new religion constantly.
Yeah. And it's important that you said it's a different Jesus because it's true. I mean, Christianity, you know, Christians believe that Jesus is God himself and that he is eternal. Uh, and then, you know, the, the Jesus of Mormonism is not eternal. He was created. Uh, he has a God. He, he's the, his brother is Lucifer. It's very different. It's true that it's a different Jesus. And my question is, as a Mormon having the, you know, the entire religious background and that whole experience, what's the, the difference that you've seen between the relationship you had with God in when you were in the LDS church and now that you've become a Christian?
God was really, um, conditional for me as a Mormon. I think the first time I ever heard the phrase "filthy rags," you know, this whole, the whole thing about that, and I know scripture as far as the stories, but I'm not good at the verses. But that particular story, I lost it. I could not understand how that's possible because in the Mormon church, I had this list of things that if I checked off each one, and I did my visiting teaching, and my temple work, and my study, and this, and that, and I was a good mom, and I went, all these things had to be perfect that I would go to, I would be guaranteed to go to a specific place in heaven. Period. But I could not let that go for so long. That is a hard piece to let go of because you feel like you can do things. It's in your control. You're going to do it. You're going to get your way there because you are good at doing tasks because they said ABCD. And I was good at that. To learn that God could love me just because I'm alive and I believe in him. That was hard. That, I know that sounds easy. And people in Mormonism will say, "She chose the easy way out because she didn't want to not drink coffee or, you know, do the things that she has to do. She's probably a sinner, and she doesn't, she wants to smoke." I don't do any of those things, but I do drink coffee. But I could not figure out that God would love me anyways, right? Like, I had been raised since I was a kid telling my mom, "You have got to stop smoking or drinking coffee or whatever the thing was because you're going to go to hell." And to understand that, no, maybe God doesn't, doesn't do that. And read these stories and, and understand like, there was no time for the sinner on the cross, okay? There was no time for him to fix his life, but he believed, and that was all he had to do. There's no way it could be that easy. Like, my brain was like, "Nope, no way." Not because I didn't want it, because that sounds insane to a Mormon. And I think this will resonate with a lot of Mormon people because you have to do so much, and everything in my whole life from my grandma to that church to everything had always been so conditional for me. There was not this great unconditional love. So I didn't understand that. I understood following rules and I understood like specifics, but I didn't understand grace. I didn't. And I think to a point, I still have to work at that. And I think that that's why we have the highest, one of the highest suicide rates is Utah, especially with the youth. And why? Because they tell them if you sexually sin, it's next to murder. You cannot tell kids that. Like, do we want people to sin? No. Do we want them to hold themselves true? Sure. You cannot give people a sin that is going to cost them their soul. Like, literally, if they believe that they're worthless to that level that they will give up their life, like that is a whole different thing. And, and in between that time, you know, my brother had passed, my dad had passed, all these people that I did have in my life, I had to deal with all of that. So again, you're getting just closer and closer to God because tragedy does do that. It does. It brings you to either one point or another. You're either going to go closer to God or hate God. You know, some, hopefully people don't, but it happens. And for me, it was closer. And I started to see things differently. Like everything in my life that I, I did as a Mormon, and if something went bad, "Oh, it's because you didn't read your scriptures enough, or you didn't do this enough. You weren't enough. You just weren't enough." So, that's on you because you chose that in the pre-existence, and you, you know, it's your own fault type of thing. Whereas I started understanding, "No, no, things just happen, and this world isn't perfect, but God is here for me, and I can hear him if I stop the crazy." Cuz you, you get in your own crazy head, you know? You start talking yourself into some other weird things. Like, you just have to go off the Bible. You got to go, go put it to rest. Like, sometimes those voices are not always good in your head, you know? You got to go pray about this. I'm not saying I'm schizophrenic. I'm saying like the voices we all have about not being enough, not all this stuff, okay? And, and let alone the chaos of my childhood. So then you really don't feel like enough because it's easy for me to believe I'm not enough because my own parents had trouble loving loving me, but they didn't. They just had problems. And as you grow up, you see that you're like, "No, you know, it was because of this. It had nothing to do with you." But you internalize all that as a human being. So as I started learning to really give things to God, I started seeing little miracles in my life. And it was weird. I remember thinking like, "That is crazy. Like, that has to be a coincidence." You know, the first couple, and I can't even remember like they were small. This isn't like an angel came. This is like something so little, you know, and I remember thinking, "Huh, that was weird." You know, like I had prayed about this, like, "Huh, that, that's weird because you really still feel unworthy." You know, you have to let go and let God. And I know everybody puts that on like walls and stuff, but like, that's real. And once you do that, you will really understand it. And it's so hard because we are so used to being able to control literally our existence, even in the afterlife. Literally.
Yeah. My husband always says Mormonism is good that way because they have an answer for everything. And it's semi-true.
Well, having an answer does not mean you have the correct answer. There's a lot of people that try to have answers to everything, and a lot of times there's things that we don't know. We should just leave them as we don't know. Uh, making up an answer is not a wise thing if you don't have one. But, uh, I understand what you're saying, and I've spoken to a few people coming out of Mormonism. Um, you know, a couple Jehovah's Witnesses, um, other kinds of, of places like that where it's, it's very much on what you're supposed to do, and then it's very hard to leave because your whole family, your whole system is in there. And so I understand the difficulty of what it is for anyone that has doubts that's in one of these religions, because having a doubt is not just like doubting your, your worldview, it's all of a sudden now like, "Oh, like, am I still going to be able to see my family? Are they going to reject me?" And so I totally understand how difficult that would be. And I, I want to give you a chance to speak. If there's a, if there's, you know, a Mormon listening and that has listened to your story, if there's one thing you could leave them with that you'd want them to know, what would be at the top of the list?
That Jesus can love you, fault and all. Like, he, you do not have to be perfect and get to the point of perfection. That's the whole point. Like, Jesus came for the sinners, and that, I think that is one of the hardest things for people to really get is that we have to really understand how much he loves us. And I think that people with children can somewhat understand that because there's nothing like any of my children could do that would make me not love them. You can not like what they don't do or do to you or whatever to somebody else. But even look at like Ted Bundy's mom, right? Like, she still freaking loved him. I mean, it is what it is. Like, that's that's her kid. That's how God loves us times 100. And it isn't a checklist. It's, it's you're not going to buy yourself there. You're not going to get there if you have the best temple outfit or the best Sunday shoes. Um, you know, these things are irrelevant, and you can be loved if you just love God, and, and you just have to, you have to give it to him. Like, you have to trust enough to say, "Okay, I get it." And, and you're going to have to do it more than once because I still do it sometimes myself. Like, sometimes you get in a situation where you're like, "Very, I want to control it." It isn't about control. The one thing that I listened to from Derek Prince that really helped me once was, and I listen to him a lot. He was talking about how control is often times demonic because that isn't what God is. That's not, that's not what he came to do, right? Like, Jesus came here to give us choice, and like, we mess it up, and then he paid for that. Yes. We, we don't just walk away, you know, free. We have to do, like, believe, and we have to be a good Christian here. But he did do that for us. He did. And so you have to back off on some of this checklist stuff. It's not, it's not what it is. It's not a true relationship with Christ. I don't know that I ever felt like I knew who my savior was until I backed up and said, "Okay, this isn't even about me." Like, what is this? What are they trying to tell me here in this book that we all people have died for, right? People have literally died for you to still have this in your hands. Like, and most people don't even read it. And also, it's never your worst day ever because unless you have what Job had, and he had all his kids die in one day, I'm always like, you know what? I can make it through this. So, don't give up. Believe me, I get things thrown at me more often than most. And there are times where I just want to say, "That's enough. You know, this is hard. You know, you do this. You're bringing." My mom always says, "When you sign up for God's army, the devil gets a notice. He gets a little paper on you. He knows where you live, and he knows what's up." And he will challenge you. It's not like he shows up with his pitchfork. It's like these dumb challenges, right? Or sometimes they're really serious. But we cannot just say, "Oh, it's too hard." Cuz Jesus didn't say it was too hard, and he knew what was coming. So, you can do it.
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Almost False podcast. Unfortunately, there's only so much that we can fit inside of one interview, but that's why we have extra content on our website. In the extra footage, Haiti talked about her life before all of this and also explained what a typical Mormon childhood looks like. In a bonus story, she went more in depth about the theology that she was taught growing up in the LDS church and explained what happened between her and her grandma after she left the church, which honestly is insane. And finally, we got into some juicy stuff about some things that hardly anyone knows about Joseph Smith and the beginnings of Mormonism. In total, that's more than another hour of content, so check it out if you're interested. You can go there by clicking the first link in the description. Thank you again for staying to the end. Have a wonderful rest of your day and stay blessed.