The Odyssey, The Sea Peoples, and The Bronze Age Collapse

Hello everyone. Welcome back. Oh, my sound wasn't off. Oh, YouTube ads. Hello everyone and welcome back to Bible and Archaeology Live. So happy to have you. I am Jordan. Hello Kus Bradford. Mary Kate. Hello K Tempest Bradford. Mary Kate. How are you doing today? I'm good. How are you? We are doing good. I Oh, my sound is T. I am more guilty cuz mine was just mine. So if you get a weird echo, that's why I am doing good. I am slightly regret regretful that you didn't go see the Odyssey today. That I didn't go and see the Odyssey this morning. We are going to talk about the Odyssey not having seen the new one, but we have inside information. We do because we phoned a friend. We phoned a friend. That one friend being Noah. We might phone that friend again, but they are technically working down. I know. That's why I left over there. And so um they they are working so they can't be here. Buzz, happy to send an answer. Happy to. If you ever got a question and you're not here at a live, email over. Headband day at work, I guess. Headband day. It's one of those. Um, so today we are going to talk some about the Odyssey. Yeah. And we're going to talk without having seen it. Well, yeah. Well, the the movie we're not going to be talking like movie review. We're we're not we're not doing a movie review thing, but instead more Odyssey, as you can see from the title, in the context of the Sea Peoples and the Bronze Age collapse. Because having talked to Noah, this does come up in the movie. But it is something that I wish more people had in mind whenever they engage with the Odyssey. Yeah. And when you're engaging with things like, hey, the book of judges or things like questions of the sea people, collapse uh the late Bronze Age collapse and the sea people, Ramsay's II, Ramsay's the third. This is something that has come up in past conversations, some of which I have already gone and linked down below. Oh, with I don't want to say too much for myself, but things like Eric Klein came on to talk about the sea peoples uh C177 for a discussion of more of this. So, we're going to talk some about some of this stuff that's happening in the Odyssey so that if you are going to go see the movie, maybe you can have some more context for the sea peoples and their role in the movie and what's happening. If you're not going to go see the movie, also totally fine. Kus Bradford Matt Damon is no Odysius. I have I I don't know. I have no particular feelings about Matt Damon, I guess. Um, but whether you want to see it or not, I think this is a helpful thing to remind yourself of as you engage with the story. So today, no news stories to start with. No, not because there are none, but because we basically did the news story that we wanted to do for the podcast this week, which is those things at Shiloh. Those things at Shiloh. So you can go and watch that one if you interested. We followed up on the live as we said with more of a here's an overview of things. So that is there. But we're going to talk more specifically about the Bronze Age, the Sea Peoples, and the Odyssey. If you have a question related to this or not, send it in. If you are here live, happy to hear from me. If you got a question, drop it in. If you're watching on replay and you have a question, leave it in the chat. I will also say this coming Wednesday, the podcast episode is with Celiana Warwick. is back and we're going to be talking about the Odyssey, both some of like here's the story of the Odyssey, some of the things you need to know about the story itself regardless of your engagement with the movie, and then some discussion of the question of adaptation and translation and good and bad and all of those things. So, we'll talk some on that, but that'll also be more on Wednesday this week. Noise ending 1177 is worth the time, fast or slow, it is worth the time. And then after 1177 as well, the second the follow-up volume and then after that both of those and then you can get into the Amara letters. So there's a lot that you can go in and read from Klein. So Mary Kate, when when you think of the Odyssey, having finished your time as a classic student here at the University of Iowa, when you think of the Odyssey, what do you think of? What like just like when someone says, "Oh, people start talking about the Odyssey." There's always endless Odyssey conversations happening around Iliad and Odyssey and Adysius and Agamemnon and Na. When you think Odyssey, what do you think of? That's so broad. Yeah. I think Well, I think about more of what like I engaged with in the Odyssey because I didn't read it here at Iowa. I've read it before. I'm not saying that. But I write we read Iliad here. Um, I think about that paper you wrote um when we did Witch of Endor. Oh yeah. Which of Endor stuff? Um, I saw the Penella Piad which is an adaptation of with the Classics Club like at the James Theater like a year and a half ago. I don't know. It's like when you think about the Odyssey, you think about like it's such a foundational piece of literature. It's a big big piece of literature. People either this I don't mean to set you up with a trap question, but it's just like you know I do I do have an answer to this. Okay. Last I think it was last summer. I have like two best friends from home and I was talking about before we started translating the Iliad. It was like summer before this past year and they were like I have no idea what you're talking about. What's the Iliad? And I was like the Iliad the Odyssey like you guys know this stuff. And they were like we have no idea what you're talking about. And I was like, you know, that big horse that well and which doesn't which is not in although I hear that it is in the movie adaptation of the office. Uh, and it's got to be this is little Iliad cycle stuff. Kris Bradford, sorry to interrupt you. Feel free to send a Bible Jacob is real question if you want to this week or you can hold it. Yeah, I was never here. Yes, if you do send that story, I will happily look through that. But continue. But it's like one of those things that everyone knows but they don't know they know. I I would say yes. Yes. Or it's like you were listening with Seliana. Oh, it is almost like you've heard Seliana. It is it's everywhere. It is everywhere. Forms. Yeah. Ring structures, literary structures. Not to get into too in the weeds of that, but it's like it's one of those things that you know regardless if you know it. Also like hero narratives are so foundational in so much of Western literature. That's like the the continuation of those themes. So I would say like when I think about the Odyssey, I would think it's something that everyone knows but they don't know they know. You know, you know, you know, you still know. Don't know that, you know. As a former classic student, Oh, that's once and always. Once and always as like I feel like I was in like my little echo chamber of like everyone knows. Yeah. But then you get out and everyone does still know. They just don't know. They know. Which is that I think you do see in in the advanced pieces coming into the movie, whether they are the presser style things with the actors, whether it is the pieces talking about the problems of translation, this or that, a lot of the groundwork usually feels like it opens up there of you know more about the Odyssey than you think you know coming into this. Well, I think a lot of people know a lot more about Greek myth than they think they know. Like when I was in Greece last month, my friends were like, "Oh, we're going to know nothing." And I was like, "That's not true. you're going to know more than you think you did, especially when we did tours and stuff like that. And so, sure, I was never here. Okay, good. I was going to say, so say if you have gripes with regular Odyssey discourse, put them in. For me, I think the thing when I think Odyssey, the thing that I think of first is this this is see people's late. That's the thing that I think of when I read this. Well, yeah, because you're Yeah, because that's like the space here. But I feel like it's usually it's not put in that space which from the conversation we've had with Noah who has seen the movie. This is something that is a part of this film more explicitly and more directly which I am I I haven't seen it yet. I there's all kinds of feelings you can have about the process of translation. for that point, not having seen it, I'm glad that that's something that's put on the table to talk about because I do think that's a helpful way whether you know the story or you don't know the story. It's a thing that is a part of this that is more embedded in this story than often gets talked about when you're placing the story of the Odyssey in the time period Homer wants it to be at, which is at this point of we're in the Bronze Age is when Homer is setting it. Even though you have all kinds of problems with that, it's supposed to be in the Bronze Age, but you can feel the creep of the collapse coming in. And some of those things very specifically Adysius takes part in and other things a little bit different. Uh, sh was never here. Your two gripes are was Adysius really promiscuous or was he pressured by power dynamics? This is yes is always the if you are interacting with a semi- divine figure. What is it also? We get all this coming from Adysius. So you always have some little problems there. And then two the prominent sympathy with why no prominent sympathy? Why no? So this is something we talk about with Saliana that comes into Greek perspectives on social class and standing and the value of individuals. This is a part that usually doesn't get talked about with the end of the Odyssey and the slaughter that takes place in the house. That is there that is something that Adysius and Tmicus take part in. So like that is they have no sympathy there. Yeah. And the the text puts it around they betray Penelope with the suitors. They are as a working with mingling with the suitors and to help take down the house. So there is no care from the text and then also socially it's not the perspective from the group that's consuming it to so much care in that way. But whether you have read the thing or not, if you are here and you have seen conversations that we've had like with Eric Klein, or you are interested in the space of the ancient world, the late Bronze Age world, you have touch points into the world of the sea peoples, which you should keep in mind when you're going through the Odyssey. Oh, I know the texts have no modern readers, I think, because a lot of people don't know the social dynamic of things. Well, and I I mean for modern readers, how many people know that that part is in there? Yeah. How many people are really reading through translations? There's a ton of arguments that take place about what translation is right. Whatever one feels right. Is Emily Wilson's translation good or bad? Should you be reading Fitzgerald? No. Instead, you should be reading Vladimore. There's all of those things. Vladimir. How many modern readers know that end part to like actually get to the end of the thing and don't stop after we get through Adysius's travel log? Yeah. I don't know. I can't I can't speak to but I think there is yeah, a lack of sympathy there or a lack of care or just gets shifted on to it's it's what it was. I've never read the Odyssey. I just know the story. I was made to read the Iliad. I zoned out at the list of ships and who was on them. Yes. Yeah. It it is uh the list of ships is a thing. Translating it. Go and you can go and watch the Emily Wilson talk. We talked about this last week when they were here talking about their Iliad translation. list of ships is something that Emily Wilson said, "Oh, that kind of made me decide how I'm going to translate this and the rules that they're going to have." But I want to go through like four things, okay, from the Odyssey that if you're thinking about the Odyssey and the Sea Peoples and the Bronze Age collapse. Some of these I think you probably are very well well aware of. Some of them maybe you are or haven't fully thought of. I think a lot of this is just like floating there and maybe if you point at it, it all kind of clicks in. Okay? And so tell me if you think I'm right. If this if you say to yourself, Jordan, you're out. I I that's okay. Jordan, you're out. So, the first one the first one is this story is set as a homecoming story, even though Adysius gets home in like book 13. Yeah. And then a lot of it takes place at home. But a big part of this is the travel log on the ship. It is a seaf fairing story for the most part. So very obviously there sea travel and raiding sea peoples and Adysius is a connection that you should be making between who are these characters. Sea peoples it's this broad category term that we get that scholars have created to describe what are lists of individual groups. It is not one unified group of people. Again go and see Eric Klein's work. But this is stuff that you get from the list from Ramsey's II and Ramsey's II. You can see this in things from Hatushia. You can see this in the mptist. The sea peoples are a wide variety of groups that have some varying levels of relationship that are partaking in raiding. Yeah. And sometimes settling and sometimes moving between and sometimes by land and sometimes by sea. So having that in mind as you go back through what Adysius is telling you he and his men were doing, it kind of sounds like they're acting a little bit like sea peoples. If you if you were to move that narrative away from the people on the ship showing up telling it and move it towards Ramsay's telling that story now over when they roll up on the shores, they're going to be described as likely sea peoples. Especially when you remember this is supposed to be said in the context of the Bronze Age. The Bronze Age collapse is not something that happens on one day it's not there and the next day it is. This is an ongoing process. The types of raids that you see here, the migrations int refugee migrations or forced migrations or raiding party migrations, those are things that take place over a longer period of time. And so they fit in well into that type of movement. It's something you get going back even further to step back into the Iliad list of ships. The listing of ships and the listing of groups of people of people who came book two show up. Oh, that sounds a lot like when you go to Mednet Habu and you have Ramsay's the third list of people. Well, that's the other direction, but it's a list of groups, not so much the number of ships for each, but you're doing a similar thing. Yeah. So, shifting there, I think putting those together can be good and a helpful way to flip back and forth between how are you reading this perspective-wise of when the sea peoples are heroes and when the sea peoples are villains. The Odyssey gives you the sea peoples as heroes perspective. Mhm. Because they are them. They like Adysius and his men are see people peoples. Yeah. I don't think that one's super crazy. I think that one I think that's crazy. Yeah, I agree. I feel like that one feels kind of like safe. We're okay. We're in a nice place. If we then say that they're se peoples. I think the second thing you should think about is going back into the end of the Iliad and where the Odyssey picks up with things. The sack of Troy itself as in the story of the Iliad and the Odyssey. We are on this translation moment between the Bronze Age when it was hum and the Bronze Age when it falls apart. Yeah, you're sitting at the end because Troy is still this grand city. And a part of what leads here is to say there is the ability of everyone else to call on alliances that have come because of trade, because of marriage, because of past wars to say you are going to come gather your ships with us to go over here to attack this walled city. Yeah. We individuals that are going to show up on ships, camp on the shore and attack your giant walled city. That is a part of the Bronze Age collapse. This this fear that we get from groups like the Hittites telling us, "Send us reinforcements because we can see them coming on the sea." Well, you're in the walled city. Why are you fearing? Well, because there's a reality that your walled city can fall. Yeah, maybe not immediately, but it's possible. So you have in the Iliad there that taking place to say the big grand cities that have been the powers of success are capable of falling to the raiding party warriors on the outside. Mhm. And a part of this because you don't just stay in the city. You can't just stay in the city. Well yeah they're there for so long. You can't just stay walled up the whole time. So if the Iliad then is a part of this to say well now again the AANS are the sea peoples showing up in that kind of dichotomy of cied people and sea people people. The Trojans are then the bronze age system that was and collapses and collapses and falls and is sacked and is destroyed and people are killed and taken away into slavery as we see the fears with the sea peoples being. Then when they're done do they stay? No, they leave. Yeah. And so you do have some instance where instances where it sees the seem see people want to stay but also times where they come and then they go and so when they leave and then it is just begins that journey home that takes 10 years now you are entering into the well it's not just this one instance but as they're going place to place they're doing the same thing they're doing the same thing but on different scales is it just the big walled cities that are targets no it can be much smaller places too and so you have this occurring And there, why might men be turned into pigs? Is it just because of like a hatred here or is this drawing on see people's fears, concerns, natural reactions? You can then start to look at different moments to go, well, how does this fit into if we have a memory as audience membersh of Bronze Age collapse of see people attacking, then here might be what this what this is drawing on in different ways. Transitioning from both knowing the Bronze Age when it was strong and that trickle of collapse that is going to take place and not just pinning it on one group. Even we, the ones that are maybe the heroes of the Odyssey or of the Iliad, we are all like we're on both sides of this thing. We are the power that was and were the thing that also destroys that power. Yeah. Interesting. What do you think? I agree. That's part two. What do you think of part two? I I like part two. I also think when you think of it in the context of like putting Odysius back in like what's going on in Ithaca versus what is going on and what he's doing like his power is waning in Ithaca. I mean obviously Penelope is going through it over there. Penelopey's going through it over there should be like the chapter title for that. Yeah, Penelope is going through it over is going through it. But obviously like power is waning in Ithaca which like I don't know what the exact like strength of the power of Ithaca would be but it's again these islands and they're facing the same threats while also being a threat. Well, they they're facing another version of the threat because they they have that not like they're pulling up and getting Well, yeah. Not as far as we know that that part's not included. Yeah. Uh, but this brings me very nicely to part three which is the part of the well what other systems have to fall apart for the late bronze age collapse to happen. Uh, yes the anid is a part of the founding stories for Rome leaving from Troy and going there. So that's Anias and the Aniid which takes some similar forms. But back at Ithaca while Adysius is away, the narrative that continues there is that of the suitors. Yeah. And so when the big king in in one way you have the story of the hero narrative which is supported and great and look at this honor thing that's going on and warfare and that's great, but there's also this thread of criticism. Yeah. That you can find in there to say is this such a great system? Does this all work well? And what happens when they're gone? Because when Adysius is gone, Penelopey does rule. Yeah. And yet the suitors are also there consuming your house. Yeah. You're being literally eaten out of house and home until Adysius returns to do the massacre of the suitor suitors and clear them out. But this presents another one of the falling points of the Bronze Age, which is you have these big city-state systems that become overconumptive. Yeah. the relationship of them to land and agriculture does start to wear thin in the face of things like famines. Yeah. When you have droughts, when you have famines, if you have plague, can those city-state systems still sustain in the face of agricultural change, changes in the climate or what about the changes of the consumption patterns of the elite? Yeah. Can it balance that? IA is on the point of breaking when Adysius comes back home. Yeah. So you don't just have the fall if the people show up at your gates. You can have the fall from the house eating itself out of house and home because you had gotten used to the grand nature of the Bronze Age when it was the G7 to use Eric Klein's phrase. Yeah. And we're able to trade internationally and we can send gold and wealth back and forth and we're marrying daughters back and forth and look at this thing works. But when little pieces start to break, when the king is not there, when cities start to fall, when people start to show up, when the harvest isn't quite that, links in the chain can start to weaken quite quickly. Yeah. So, the suitors present another moment in this, but they're like a domestic threat. They are a domest They are a domestic like I just lost my words. Like the domestic and the the internal and the external effects threats. Wow. I just like lost all my words for they they are they are the internal threat and you get this some when we when you see the amarna letters. Yeah. That I think is an example of not inside one household but if you take the idea of the pharaoh as the master over a house and the house there is going to be the kingdom the empires that are all connected together. The infighting that happens between the inferior kings as they fight for the affection of the pharaoh and who is really best and who is going to take into position that's on a much grander scale but politically that's a household in Ithaca you have the suitors fighting to say well who gets to take over yeah has been gone for a long time you have these types of things now moving in the same way to say there's internal pressures and threats too because there's a desire to take these things take over that power but the system may not be able to continue to sustain it in the way that it had before. And then you can get into those like, well, theories of emergence for new groups of people, are they always from outside or are they internal shifts that result in new emergences of people in new places and at new times? So that's kind of like your your third one to say internal here. All of which fits into the story of the Odyssey is telling you the story of a system of collapse that is coming. It's not fully here yet. But it's it's teasing the collapse. It's creeping towards you. You c you can see like the tendrils of the the ways that the collapse is going to come reaching into the story line. The people showing up on the shore, the fall of the fortified cities, the internal pressures that can happen at the houses, the migration patterns that take place. All of these things are little processes of collapse. I think you could even go back to like when Adysius refuses to marry Nika. Okay. Well, this is an old pattern that we'd have of you're going to do these types of marriage alliances. And he says like, "No, I need to go home. I'm not staying to do this. I have a wife. I'm married. I need to return to that." But you have here, oh, is this a way speaking about some of these things going down rather than here and Buzz? Yeah. Some Minian civilization then from from within rather than from without. You do get this type of from exactly where do the pressure points build? It's not most of them are not just one But the internal fighting can grow because of external pressure, a criticism of how you're responding to external pressure, the rise of well, is agriculture not working? Who has the disservice here? All of these little parts come together. And if you go back and reread the Odyssey, yeah, or watch the Odyssey, keep an eye for these moments to see how this fits into the grander narrative of the Bronze Age collapse and other narratives that you might be familiar with. If you're less familiar with the Odyssey, but you're more familiar with like the story of the Exodus and the story of the judges and these moments to go, you see that same pattern taking place here to say thank you. Thank you, Dennis. To say like there's these little ways that these internal pressures start to move and you can see the same types of ideas about the grand hero, a Samson versus an Achilles. the actions of individual kings in Agamemnon. Kus Bradford talking about like in Agamemnon doing what and Agatha doing what? Yeah. Reading the book of judges. Go and watch the Odyssey. Go and read the Odyssey. Then go back through the book of Judges. Right. This isn't something brand new. There's links down in the description for some other things you'd like. Specifically Bruce Louden's book. go and look through that to say how can you see some similar types of criticisms concerns showing up between these things all of which are dealing with this process of late Bronze Age transition into Iron Age big city collapse migrating into smaller cities new emergence tribal shifts all of that stuff floats around in the same way I think that's I know I knew where you were going with this because we talked about it before but I do I think I knew yeah we did because I was like I'm not going to totally surprise I know you're not totally surprising me, but I do I agree with you. I agree with your four points. You don't have to. Well, I I know I don't have to, but I do agree with Jordan's four points. Um, but I think that's a good like to use a phrase you use all the time, throughine. Like thinking I love a throughine. A through line. I don't think I ever said that before I ever met Jordan, but um like the through line of all these pieces coming together because I think something like the Odyssey obviously doesn't come out of isolation, but to some people it might feel like it does. Like it might this grand piece of literature, the Iliad in the Odyssey might seem like, you know, it's myth. It's fictional. It's big. Like obviously it does reflect a time in a community, but I think to a lot of people they don't think of that because of the mystical elements and things like that. Yeah. So I think bringing it in and looking at it at that different scale and those different sizes like chunking it out helps chunk it out. Chunk it out. And not all the parts have to be the same because the same way we talk about theories of composition for biblical texts, there are debates around elements of the Iliad and the Odyssey. Do these all come together? Are there things like in the Iliad when you have Adysius going in and raiding the temple of Athena and taking the Platium? Is that original or is this a weird the the night the night? Yeah, these parts that not everyone agrees on in addition to when does this even come from? When do we transition from an oral homeriic tradition into a written tradition? Do we have points? We do have some things that seem we have enough cohesion to say, well, you can have competitions to see who does it best. But when does it take place? all kinds of debates in the world of classics that mirror what you see with biblical texts. So those are places of commonality, but I think trying to find through lines other than like it's a returning home story, which in some ways it is, but it's a home in a very different way. Home in a very it's it's not just a homecoming. I mean, I've seen a lot of discourse online that's like it's the map. I don't know if you've seen this. It's like took Odysius 10 years to get here. Like Well, yeah, it's not just about that. It is. Well, it is, but if if you put home here, home can be lots of different things. Well, also it's like the Odyssey doesn't cover the full 10 years. It's like 60 something days. It's or the Yeah. You have the Iliad is a condensed version at the end of the war. Yeah. And then jumping into the Odyssey, which is also not the entirety of his time, but it is his retelling of the things that I went through and then getting home and then doing the events. So you have a lot of telescoping of time down. But if we do take home, if we I don't love the description that it's just a return home cuz it's not like it's also it's a it's questions of like identity and it's questions of like fidelity to things and of family and of shifting ideas of honor culture like you have lots that comes in. Yeah. But if you take home and let's similarly like I propose maybe you do for the idea of the pharaoh's relationship to vassel kings as a model of home an imperial model of home take that now and put it into this to say returning home is the attempt to return back to the late bronze age world that you left before the sack of Troy this bronze age world when everything was better for you in the palace system your world was going Well, this is the attempt to return home which actually turns into well returning home you return as a as the sea people. Yeah. Your world has changed. You your classification has changed. the great warrior system h has moved the individual hero system and now you Adysius and your men are you're this doing the same thing but now you are you are the raiders at the gate because this home that you are trying to get back to of this bronze age world that was is not there anymore and so you get some parts that praise that in the stories but you also have parts that are critical of that and things that go back and forth like the trading of armor in the elite these scenes where our fathers and our fathers in this relationship and we have a heroic great the heroic code in some ways that's like a positive identification of things from that past but you also have the other extremes of for the sake of what do we do what and to who and how many people and then following in so you get the criticism and the support um both both together in this thing so I think it can be a home but it's that like failed attempt to get home but home being that past system that home being like more of a memory. Yeah. You what is you can't step in the same river twice, right? This is that thing. But here the the river is that Bronze Age world that you left. Yeah. You sailed away and you helped destroy it. You helped to destroy your own world, which is a part of what we do see with the Bronze Age collapse. Things that made it work are also the things that made it die. Yeah. Just when enough of the little pieces bend out of place, then the weight can't be sustained by that anymore. So, if you're thinking about going to watch the Odyssey, I hope that that is somewhat I really want to go see it so badly and sorry K Tempest Bradford, but I'm just excited to see it. Also, Noah, I was talking about him the soundtrack with him. I'm really excited about the soundtrack, but I don't want to listen to the soundtrack until I've seen the movie. I Yeah, I'm I'm interested to see it. I will be watching it this weekend. Yes, you're going to see it tomorrow. I think I'm going to see it tomorrow. Um, but I I'm interested to see it because I we talk about this with Saliana. So, I don't want to like I'm fine to step on the toes of the thing that'll come out on Wednesday. But I think you should go and watch it if you're interested in this idea of like adaptation and translation because I think Celiana has a very good take on this. And so, this is in some ways poaching from her and in other ways not. But like one of these questions that we discussed was is it possible to have a good or a bad adaptation in this way? There are individual things you can point to like saying is the armor correct? Are the ships correct? How do we render these lines? The armor question is always difficult. There's there's all of these things and and you can point to some of that and you go, "Well, this is not a Boris Tusk helmet and we have a line in the Iliad that describes Adysius wearing a Boris Dusk helmet, so that is wrong." Yes, but we also have aspects of Homer where well you have round shield description showing up which is not something from the Bronze Age. We have references to iron showing up which is not from the Bronze Age. Go into vase painting. Well, we have ancient depictions of scenes from the Iliad and Odyssey where Achilles is not wearing the armor of the Bronze Age but is instead wearing the armor of the hoplights. So you have not just in a new way, it's in the text where it mixes these time periods together and all through the periods of depiction. It mixes those time periods together. So us doing this, we're doing the same thing. You're fair to say like you don't like the armor. I think that's that's fine. You can say like I don't like it, but to act like that is just a new thing and we're the only ones who have done this. That's always been a part of this. Yeah. Because Homer's Bronze Age is not the Bronze Age. It is smashing together a bunch of different periods of time because well, how well do you really know this thing that you're speculating about and that you're casting something back to? And maybe some of this draws on traditions and memories and we have some of these pieces around and other pieces the ways that some of this fighting takes place maybe actually matches better with another time. This type of pick and mix is what you get in inside the Iliad and the Odyssey in the same way that you're you're going to have it in Nolan's adaptation of this where you have armor that is not that. Yeah. Uh, but I think having like something more than that to say, well, is that the make or break point for you? Or hopefully hopefully or you can continue to engage with these themes and hopefully this is the thing that gets you in to say, hey, whether you liked or disliked the movie depiction. I hope it encourages you to dive deeper into either the text themselves to get you to read it if you haven't or the Bronze Age collapse dealing with the Bronze Age if you like that type of concern that this can be a way in for people to say I actually have more interest in this than I thought. Yeah. Because that is like the purpose that we do this to say learn about the things and that's great and hope you get good information about that but those things are valuable to us because they still speak to us and connect to us and the ways that systems fall apart are haven't changed. Yeah. Right? And this is a part of why Eric Klein wrote after 1177, right? In what happens after in the falling apart and how the systems rebound and they talk about like COVID 19 during that and the way we have global systems that shift and how does that well we have some things that helped us through but you can see moments where it's not so different. Those things are not totally new th those shifts those paradigms. So those that don't learn from history, right? That same thing comes through whether it's repeat fictive history like the Odyssey because we do have um so the question K tempest Bradford is asking the war behind the story of Troy is one of the Hittites. Correct. Did that take place during the Bronze Age collapse? Is the stuff you've been talking about reflected in factual history? We do have a site that has been identified as Troy that has destruction layers. The time periods are are not exact and precise. We do have records from the Hittites that make mention to Oh, yes. names. I was going through um I don't remember if it's in here or if it's in Ldens's but like you do have references in Hittite correspondence to names that they think is the versions of things like Alexandros or or Paris or things like Iliam um or the AANS in the 13th and 14th century which would be in that pre-colapse type of time period and so there maybe they're telescoping in a time period that was earlier and characters or names that are slightly earlier to the collapse. It's a little bit later in pancaking those things down, but you get the blending together maybe some of I I would say here pull in pull in the framework of a David. Yeah. the tellan tells us that there is a house of David. What does that tell you about that David? Not much other than there's a group that claims this. Okay. Now, if you're moving over, well, we have individual names. Are there traditions and stories and hero narratives that build around some of these Alexandros types of characters or these sites or the AANS? You have this coming up too with things from Ramsy's II and Ramsy's II where they list individual groups for the sea peoples. And one of those some people think might be the Daans, the Denuna. Are these we don't totally know. Could there be a relationship between these names? There's debate on these types of things, but there's places where scholars look and they go, "Well, this might be some of the kernels." Yeah. Out of which these grander narratives can grow. Is it giving a real war record of this? No. No. Much in the same way that you can't look at an Egyptian depiction of a war account and say this is a a war record that we can trust, right? That's a propagandistic report. When you move into the world of fiction, you are also getting these here. Yeah, noise ending Klein talks about in 1177 several layers stacked on top of each other at Troy. Like you do get this building of and so there's there's clearly signs of this period of collapse. And this is something that you get at other sites too where you have that process of destruction and reconstruction destruction and reconstruction that emerge around. You get things that happen in the middle bronze. You get things that happen in the late bronze. You can think here about Jericho and debated destruction layers that do not line up with ideas of Joshua but destruction that does happen there. Is it from earthquakes? Is it from other things that happen neither of which line up with either a 1400 or 1200? It doesn't matter. Uh, but again a way that you can fit in the story of Joshua conquesty stuff or judges things you are looking at similar types of narratives and conversations about self in this period of time bronze age and emerging out that draws on old Joshua I I mean I the book of Joshua and and Joshua as a character tells some fictives what tell Yep. I mean I them walls there there's some there's some tumbled walls. Exactly. Who? That's a different question. So this is kind of your your quick overview in 30 minutes. Yeah. Of some things I hope you can keep in mind as you watch either the Odyssey or see online discussion of it in case you're like I am tired of just having the conversation of is this translation a good one or a bad one. Oh off topic question in the chat. Does anyone have a good recommendation for a book on Carthage? In what way about like what do you mean Dennis? What do you mean by book on Carthage? What do you love at Carthage overview history or I will we will pause and there I know there's a slight so as you type in but yeah, keep these things in mind as you see there will be lots of online discourse around the movie and around translations. I know uh this has brought up all kinds of stuff connected to Emily Wilson's translation because Christopher Nolan has talked about using Emily Wilson then like oh I don't like this one read one re read one read one and then if you don't like something in that you can read another one and read another one and see but they all have things that they do well they all have things that they do bad no translation is perfect they all they all have problems overview. I think we did a translation assignment for my Greek class this year and we read Emily Wilson, Emily Wilson's Iliad, but then for our final project, we had to pick our own translation and analyze it and do it a little more technically, but I did Robert Fagel's translation for it. It was your favorite, I think. And I think yeah, I think Fagel is yeah, probably my translation of the Iliad or Peter Green. But that's also bias. Peter Green Peter Green is a is a Yeah, it's bias, but yeah, pick whatever translation you will read.

You will read like Emily Wilson is good. The hate on Emily Wilson, I mean, is it's just another Yeah. Well, personally, I think it's wrong, but also I read them never read the so quick. Like I think that was a really great and like this is an Odyssey. I haven't read her translation of the Odyssey, but it changes things in a way that you can comprehend it quicker. You can read it faster. This big big long ancient text feels a lot more manageable in that sense.

I would also if you um Dennis, I'm going to come to you. I I haven't read this book yet, so I I don't want to speak out of turn, but I'm actually now that I've looked at it, I want to read it and maybe I can get back to you. But in January of this year, a new book came out, Carthage, a New History by Eve McDonald, which I have not read yet. It's the mo it's the first one that comes up because I'm like I Carthage isn't really my space. So I what I'm going to say is as always, you know, you should ask I'm going to ask Dr. Moore. Yeah, let me email Rosemary Moore cuz we did stuff on Carthage when I took that class with her. Yes. No, Rosemary would have a great. So, I feel like I have probably not an overview recommendation, but I definitely have readings from that class. So, yeah, let me let me email Thank you so much. Wonderful idea. Let me email Dr. Rosemary Moore and I'll ask for a couple. I'm going to probably just request a copy of this one too to look because it's it is um new and they're the proposed the description of is that it strips away Roman centric biases which I am interested in because that is very often the the way the look from Rome is the perspective that is taken. So car let me said he was looking at that one specifically.

Okay. Well, I'm going to get a copy, too, and be on the lookout for I if if it's not bad. Um I will probably be asking them if they want to come and talk because we haven't done anything having to do with car. We can, but I'll also ask doctor more um before doing she'll definitely have a good recommendation. Yes.

Do you wear vigs? So there was you before before right before that you were saying though you were very very but I because I interrupted my own thought no that's okay to talk to so the Carthage book what were you saying I was talking about Emily Wilson Emily Wilson's translation oh yes if you are looking for more and you're like I've read this I've read or I don't know that I want to read that whole thing I'm not really feeling up to reading the Iliad or the Odyssey complete I really really like Steven Fry's Mythos and Heroes and and those works. I find them very enjoyable. They bring together a wide variety of traditions. You have one that's on heroes. You have one that's on the goss. You have one that's on the the Iliad cycle. How many are there? Are there three or there four? I don't think I've read these. They are I definitely haven't. So you have there are also audio books of them which I would say do those because Stephen Fry narrates them. Wait, I told you my car speaker died. That's now I have something for my drive. So you have heroes. What's the whole cycle? You have the heroes one. What's the Iliad one called? un Troy. Uh, but if you if you're looking for a different way in, I really found these interesting because it it pulls together and says like I'm going to give you one version of this story, but throughout it will say there's this other version that says this, some things say this. So they point to the different outgrowths, but do kind of that how do we wrestle this together into one narrative? And if you like Steven Fry's voice, they narrate their audio books. And so that's a fun and enjoyable way to go through them. I listened to them while running and found it to be very very delightful as just like another way into those stories that you know I think it's it's a lot like if you like Edith Hamilton and that version this is another one of those but updated and they worked with scholars on this to help bring these things together.

Jacob is real question was reading the part of the story about Joseph when the other brothers come back to Jacob to tell him that Joseph is alive the narrative doesn't give us a reaction to the brothers lies. He doesn't yell at them or anything. In fact, only after he dies. So, the brothers seem worried about the reaction for their past terribleness, but I'm on the edge of my seat. Doesn't give us a reaction to just brother's lies. He doesn't yell at them or anything. Only after he dies, they seem worried about the reaction. Yeah. Um, wait. I guess there I'm There's a payoff coming in your in your There's something coming. There's a turn coming. Pausing. Pausing quick. When Jacob gives his final blessing and speech, he's really negative about almost all the brothers. Like, what the hell? [clears throat] Um, 40. We're going to go like Joseph reveals himself to the brothers is Genesis 45 and this is their moment where it's not bad for you. It's it is ends up being good. God works together. Those things you do have negativity about some of the brothers. Levi for example get cursed but not all of them. More blessings than curses coming out within this. Why why is he not upset? I I know I've read some things where people go, "There's just so much joy that he's alive. The time has passed. What are we going to What I don't know. I guess I I feel like the emotional descriptions in the text often leave you wanting." Yeah. for most all characters that you you're not getting that internal conversation. You're not getting the emotional reactions outside of usually the my gray head is going to go down to shield these big moments of grief or big moments of celebration. You get those types of polar swings in large moments. But here the intimate intricate what is the response here with the time that has passed? I think you could fit in naturally. a question I think is very fair to say what is what is this? How is this your response and your reaction to being [clears throat] told that Joseph is dead and then now all this time and you find out they're lying.

Yeah, I I think the fair response is is confusion. The text doesn't dwell on that and instead it doesn't really dwell on emotion. No, instead it's focused on moving in. It's not made explicit if there's scholarship on why. I would say I I can look around to see if there is there are going to be there are going to be later discussions that are adding material in on that type of emotional flushing out because this is exactly that space that has people wondering and leaves room for expansion, speculative expansion on why or how or what's going on here. So I would guess that yes, you're going to have those when when maybe you it feels a little bit wanting. But this this type of space where it emits things, is it in intentionally emitting something because it wants to hide it or just because it's not the care of the text to give you that type of emotional insight? That's not the concern that it has. And in some moments, you do get it. But in in a lot of in a lot of moments where you would expect emotion, some kind of that you don't have some, but because often you don't have that internal discussion coming through in these things.

Have you seen the broadcast miniseries version of the Odyssey? I have not. I just looked it up too. Thank you. Also, no. [snorts] Is it Is it good? Is it good? Is it good or is it is it bad? Broadcast miniseries version of The Odyssey, 1997. Yeah. No, I have I have not seen this. Me neither. It's on Fubo. No, I I haven't. I haven't. Um, if you are watching on replay and you have a question that we didn't get to, you can leave it in the chat. We will come back to them in in the future if you have questions that we missed because you can't watch us live. So happy for whenever you can tune in. If you have a question on something related to the Odyssey story or translation, I'd say check out the episode with Dr. Warwick that will be coming out the Wednesday after this was live. Mhm. We'll probably talk about some of it there. If you want to hear from Emily Wilson, I'll put the link down below to the talk they gave last year talking about their process of translation and some stuff from the Iliad and the Odyssey. I think you might find that interesting. I also put links down below to past conversations with Eric Klene talking about the Sea Peoples. I put down there our discussions with JP Desel about the Bronze Age collapse and theories of emergence for ancient Israel. [snorts] There are some links down there to reading recommendations for technical books as well as like two popular article type things discussing stuff connected to sea people depictions or bronze age stuff in the Odyssey. So you might you might find any of that interesting. I don't know what Fubo is, but I refuse to believe it's the name of a real streaming. It is Fubo. It is Fubo and Tubi. It's one of the Why is this a name? I don't know, but it is. But but it's free. It's It is there. So we will leave um I think largely leave this one here but again thank you so much for tuning in. I am Dennis I am going to email Dr. Moore to ask and I am going to request a copy get a copy of that other book to read through and and see where we go. Again as always too if you are watching this and you think to yourself I do have some topics that we need to reach out to that we're working to get into the schedule coming forward. If there's ever things you want to see that you're like, "Oh, why haven't you touched this one yet?" Just let us know. Send an email. I love topic requests when there's specific things because there's so many things. Yeah, there's so many things to do. We have the topic on the Odyssey coming forward. We have a conversation about sex work in the Hebrew Bible coming up. We have a conversation about the end of the world in the Bible coming forward. We have a conversation about Hezekiah's cultic reforms coming up. We we have lots of things on the horizon all over the place. So happy to hear whatever you have to say. Uh but if you are looking for more, you can always find more in the bonus podcast. You can get that here on YouTube or over on Patreon. We are going through the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament. We just talked about Numbers five. Numbers five. The may abortion text. Pandemon, great to see you. It might be might be that, but it might not be. So, if you want that here on YouTube, you can become a YouTube member with Bible and Archaeology and you get access to those membersonly episodes here on YouTube. If you want those and things like ad free podcasts, you can join us over on Patreon and and we'll see you there. Or if you just want to hang around, join the lives, happy to. But, uh, numbers five is a fun one. So, if you're thinking about it and then you know what next week is. What's next week? The next two chapters in numbers. Well, what next two? Well, you know how to count. I don't know. I don't know what we're doing next week. So, we we will see we will see you live [laughter] next week. And if you're in the bonus podcast, we will see six and seven in the book of Numbers. And we will continue on. Thank you. So, I can't Yes. Thank you so [laughter] much for hanging out. It is great to see you, Mary Kate. We we will leave before we cook. Um yeah, I'm on fire right now. Yeah. But great to see you. Look forward to seeing you here next week.