My Path to becoming a filmmaker - Interview #02 - Dilman Dila

Oh yeah, welcome, welcome to this episode of the Real Africa podcast. Uh, today we are not reviewing a film. We are going to be reviewing so many films by the one Dilman, our guest as well. And yes, uh, with me today, >> I David Ceil and uh, I'm a a friend of Dilman, I think from a long time ago and uh, it's a real pleasure to have him on the Real Africa. So Dilman, um, do you want to introduce yourself?

>> Yeah. So I'm Dil Mandela. I'm mostly a writer and a filmmaker and I've been doing this for a long time now. I I just it struck me recently that, you know, the first film I made, 2007, it's going to be 20 years next year and I was thinking of doing a a kind of, you know, celebration kind of something. So I've made a lot of films and yeah, I'm happy to be here to talk about film.

>> Amazing. Um, yeah. I mean, for me, uh, I find your films really interesting because you don't rely on dialogue all the time. In fact, I would say you're primarily a visual filmmaker and in the age of soap operas that proliferate, especially like coming from Nigeria and things like that and a lot of the Ugandan TV which is very dialogue driven, it's so nice to see a Ugandan filmmaker just telling the story with images and and it's a rare skill. Um, and obviously it's not everyone's cup of tea, but you know, you've got my vote on that.

>> So >> yeah, >> I think part of that was practical because, you know, in Uganda we have uh many languages. We're not like Kenya or Tanzania where there's Kiswahili and so if you're looking for actors in a film that you know is not in English, you can just say, "I'm shooting it in Kiswahili," and you'll get a lot of good actors. But in Uganda, if you're not doing it in English, then you're doing it in a particular language. And the problem is uh you have to get actors who can speak that language and then it becomes problematic. So very early on uh it was one of the things I was thinking about. I was like, I didn't want to make films in English. Uh, strangely, um, my two feature films are all in English because of the same challenges, but um, earlier on, you know, like I was like, "Okay, if I'm to make the film, I need actors." So if it's in Luganda, then I have to cast only Luganda speaking actors and somebody who's a very good actor but doesn't speak Luganda would have to be left out, you know. Or nowadays I make a lot of films in Achi and so um, I have to be casting only Achi speaking actors, which is very complicated.

>> So >> and is it also about the audience? Like, I mean, you'd only be broadcasting to an Achi audience if you...

>> No, of course. Uh, I think, you know, like you say, film is very visual and I sometimes like, if the film is really well made, whatever language is in it, without even subtitles, you will enjoy it. I remember watching this film, I think it's "Eat, Drink, Man, Woman." Uh, it's a Chinese film. The first time I watched it, about the first 40 minutes without subtitles because I couldn't get the subtitles, but I was enjoying it. I didn't understand everything that was going on. It's a drama, a very slow-moving Chinese drama. So, imagine watching that without subtitles, but it was very visual. I was just enjoying the pictures. I was enjoying, you know, like the guy was cooking food. He was like a chef. So it started off like a chef show and he's making this very huge, uh, meal for... and you imagine it's for maybe um his, for like for like a five-star hotel. And then you go to see, oh, it's actually for the small family. And you know, such small things, you know, they hook you into the story and you're like, "Hmm, what's going on?" So even without knowing what was going on, um, I could feel, you know, I could feel the story and I could enjoy it. And I think that's, those are the kinds of things I wanted to do when I started out as a filmmaker. Um, I would look for uh films like that. I think this guy went on to make even bigger films. I think it's the guy who did "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon." Yeah. Which I also watched, you know, at one point without subtitles, but then, you know, you still enjoy the the film.

>> I mean, that is an action film, to be fair.

>> Yeah, it's an action film, but "Eat, Drink, Man, Woman," I think it's the same director.

>> Right. Right. I'd love to see that. I mean, I I'd had that recommended by another person. Um, but yeah, I think that's we were discussing earlier a film that we're going to review called "Seed of the Sacred Fig," which is an Iranian film, and we were chatting about subtitles, and it's very interesting that you identified, Kenneth, you said, "Like, I can't watch this movie without subtitles." And I was saying, "Give it a chance. It picks up, you know." And um, but I think it's a testament perhaps to the to "Eat, Drink, Man, Woman," which it's a famous film, isn't it? Um,

>> that you can do a drama without subs. Come on. And and I I find it very frustrating uh that people treat film almost like theater, but not without even the physicality of theater, you know. It's just like it's the laziest form of filmmaking in a way, you know, just stick a camera there, let them say the lines.

>> Yeah, it's become problematic. And it's not just even in the indie world because in the indie world, people do that for budget reasons. Like you can't create an explosion. So you say, "Oh man, the bomb has gone off. We're running." So the bomb goes off on the phone.

>> Yes. Yes.

>> But I see that also creeping into Hollywood. I I mean, the big studio productions and it's like they're dumping things down nowadays. And there was a film that's when I stopped actually watching these Avenger things. I don't remember which one it was, but there was a two-minute section of them explaining the story.

>> I think. No, there was this one where there was a time something.

>> Yeah. I mean, you're a scriptwriter. I mean...

>> I'm like, "Why do I have this?" I when when we were doing the script for "Imperial Blue," I was working with my buddy from London and like expo was like a curse word. It's like, "Get rid of it. That's expo. It's like, if you can't explain it visually."

>> Mhm.

>> "It maybe shouldn't be there."

>> Exactly.

>> And there are some details that you have to have, but...

>> Yeah. No, I I Okay. I I think in the end, you still want to tell the story, right? You know, I think the first conversation we had, I told you about Nolan does so much. Christopher Nolan does so much of the exposition, but you still can't say his films are bad, right? Like, you understand why they don't win the big awards for...

>> He has super complex ideas. Yes. Like, uh, "Inception" can be quite hard to do without a bit of expo.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Like, you know, yeah, you can't write it unless someone has told you in the film that things are going to go backwards, otherwise it doesn't...

>> Let me cut in. So Dilandilla's new short, which I'm not sure if it's publicly available, but uh, "The Eve," "Little Red Eve." Yeah.

>> cuz that has a super complex plot. Uh, and you've got bits of expo, but you use a cunning technique to show it, but it's super complex. It's like it's not a simple short film, but it's like got loads of different ideas, but there's bit there's like hardly any dialogue. There's like about five lines of dialogue in it.

>> Yeah, mostly TV news.

>> Mostly TV news.

>> The expo from...

>> Yeah. Yeah. Which is kind of acceptable. I mean, somebody's watching TV and TV, we know is...

>> Has Christopher Nolan called you about...?

>> but I I don't know, even with those expos, I I watched "Inception" I don't know how many times before I finally got it.

>> like six.

>> Oh, I see. I see. Yeah. But but you know, that that's the thing is when it comes to sci-fi, you know, I think the difference between like typical fantasy, you know, watching "Game of Thrones" and sci-fi is you want the lies to be consistent with some sort of like physical theory or something like that. And the assumption is, no, not everyone who's going to enjoy the film has that knowledge of like, usually science, like physics, maybe, or like biology. So you want to introduce it a little bit, you know. I I get that. I get that, you know, a little bit. I think for me, I'm okay with a little bit of that, even if I see. But uh, the the this conversation, there was a conversation with Matt Damon and uh, what's his name? They have a movie on Netflix called "RIP." What's the other guy? Ben Affleck.

>> and you know, they were explaining the economic rather from the data that Netflix has why the films are what they are today, right? Uh, so they're saying, uh, because uh, Netflix knows when you when you start playing, how long, uh, you trust the director before you like pause and go do other things, right? So they know at what point to sort of insight to to to insight the a little bit, right? And some of the time it's going to be maybe putting explosions, but some the some of the time what they say they were asked after they submitted the screenplay that halfway within the the script, you have to tell people, you have to give like a recap. So we are now hearing the story, this is what has happened before, this is what is going...

>> right. Wow. Almost like a soap opera.

>> Yeah. Previously...

>> on "Apocalypse Now."

>> Yeah.

>> And and again, I think part of what they were saying is I think what they see as uh the future of streaming, watching movies in at home. Yeah. When when you know your attention is competing with everything else is how cleverly people are going to figure out how to do that kind of exposition. Right.

>> Isn't it depressing? I mean, cinema started at such a high medium, you know, it was an art form and now it's like they assume everyone who's watching it had this attention span of a butterfly and is doing the ironing, which is more interesting than the film anyway. Sorry.

>> Yeah. And I think that's what is killing Hollywood films, honestly, because this this paying more attention to data than to the actual film because...

>> uh, I don't know, in the beginning, they actually, when YouTube was just kicking off, they were like, "Oh, attention spans are short" because they could not, they didn't have the technology for long-form features, enough for feature films and all that. But then after a while, that dropped off and then because now they could have longer films on on YouTube. But then, um, the problem that I'm seeing with this kind of thing is they they trust more to data. And that data doesn't even inform actually what a person or why a person stopped watching at that point because in a cinema, you know, you're stuck and so you watch up to the end. But when you're watching from home, you have the liberty of pausing to go to the bathroom. You know, there are all these distractions which will come and it's not because the film has bored you, but you know, you want to pee. So...

>> I I know what they're going to answer. I'm afraid they're going to say, "We don't care."

>> whether you're going for a pee or whether you're bored. Uh, but I think for them, the reality of home entertainment is exactly as you said, you know, you're not pinned to your seat.

>> uh, you know, like you're in a presidential speech or something, you have to sit there, don't look away. Uh, but you know, it's you're right, home entertainment's given rise to this issue. And we are at this interesting time, I think, in the evolution of film where...

>> cinema now has become a separate thing. It's like, "This is a cinema film," and you often hear that, right?

>> "You've got to watch it on the cinema." I know, probably some younger people watching this will be like, "Duh." Yeah. I mean, but it wasn't always like that. It was, I think you, you did have the concept obviously of TV movies.

>> and then we used to have what was called straight to video, which in the in the 80s through to the 90s when VHS was like really ascendant and straight to video, yeah, was the like the birth of like this uh liminal space between TV and and cinema, right? Straight to video. And now we live in a straight to video world, I think.

>> and I think that straight to video, it created a lot of genres like the the what was the one from the Scandinavian? It's not cinema verité, but...

>> Oh, yeah. Uh, Dogma.

>> Dogma.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, maybe was that? I I know what you mean. Uh, I would say that was more a product of like a kind of a nausea uh against Hollywood and against commercial film.

>> But I think one of your favorite genres is came from the straight to video world, which is like...

>> kick-ass low-budget horror movies.

>> Yeah.

>> That's your thing.

>> Yes. And yeah, you're I mean, that's not an insult, right? I mean, I like films.

>> because u I think starting with uh, what was this film? "The Blair Witch Project," you know, because that's when the people are like, "Okay, you can actually make films with low-budget equipment, with very low uh gear, but still end up making a good film." Like, you don't need the gear to make the the film. And and I think I came, I started learning film when that kind of ideology was passing around. I think that was the time also this guy, the Mexican Rodriguez, made his film also, "El Mariachi," >> also still the same concept, you know, low budget with very small things and then you end up uh still telling a good story. And at that time, people had already because of this um straight to video, because people already used to watching film with that kind of VHS quality, you know, they they were not expecting the the look of which...

>> 12k.

>> the look of the cinema. I know there was a certain look in the film, you're not properly see gleaming, glistening with effects.

>> Exactly. Something like that. So um, I think yeah, and so me coming up and I think most of my first mentors, they were showing me those films, you know, the Dogma films.

>> uh, "Mariachi," "Blair Witch," and do this because they knew most of them were from Hollywood, but they knew like, "Oh, this guy is in Uganda. There's >> chances of him going to Hollywood are very..."

>> not even slim.

>> So so two two questions. One quick one and one longer one. Um, you talk about mentors and you talked about Dogma films as a kind of inspiration. So my quick question is like, which Dogma films would you recommend? And just like maybe two or three if you can remember. And then my second question is like, what mentor us, what tell us about that...

>> The Dogma films, I actually can't remember them off my head like "El Mariachi" or "The Blair Witch Project" because there were quite a few of them. It didn't hit off as a genre because I don't remember why.

>> but it it it came off as a movement and then after a it died out.

>> And I don't think there's any film that kind of stood out and say, "This was a Dogma film" that...

>> Well, one of the, I mean, two of the two or three of the directors like made it big.

>> And there was one guy who, so the famous one is Lars Von Trier.

>> and he's he's now, you know, won awards at Cannes and he also made the most scandalous film at Cannes, which is about a nymphomaniac, like a sex addict.

>> yeah, no, no, that's "Sodoma."

>> Yeah. Um, do you remember the one? There was one with quite a famous actress. I'd never saw it, but and it's like people walked out at Cannes. But Lars Von, brilliant. I mean, "Pro" made one of the most disturbing films I've ever seen called "Antichrist," which...

>> blew blew my mind. Have you seen that?

>> See, I've seen it.

>> Pretty disturbing. Yeah. I couldn't look at a pair of scissors again after seeing it.

>> But then uh, what about, do you know Thomas Vinterberg? He did a film called "Festen," which was his, I think, very famous. And "The Idiots." Anyway, he made it's Dogma. So Dogma is like, for people who don't know, Dogma is like, you use only natural light. You don't use artificial lighting. You only use natural sound, what you can capture on your mic. So you don't have like a soundtrack.

>> Um, and you use uh, non-famous actors. So, they can be trained actors, but they shouldn't be like Tom Cruise or someone you've heard of.

>> Um, those were the big ones, weren't they? Those were the big three rules they had. There was a few others.

>> Yeah. I think also in terms of uh, they were trying to do this one-take things.

>> Yes.

>> Where like...

>> to make you feel like this was not edited, this was like properly. So it's it was a cross between documentary and you know...

>> it was there was a very um, but I I can see why it didn't go far because technology became really cheap. Nowadays, you can shoot with cameras like this and still achieve that effect like as if you've shot with natural lighting.

>> but it wasn't possible with, you know, the Hollywood, the way Hollywood would light films in the up to that point in studios, like you could feel, "Oh, this has been lit." And but now with LEDs and all that, the lighting, you know, it becomes, it feels like it's a natural kind of lighting.

>> Yeah. I but I think there was more. I think it was a spirit as well. I think Dogma was a spirit. And like, if anyone's interested, like, Google Dogma. And it is, it's spelled D O G M E, isn't it?

>> M A.

>> Is it? No, D-O-G-M-A, I think. Cuz it's not Dogma, it's Dogma.

>> It's an important difference. Me anyway. Um, but uh, the the Dogma influenced, maybe he was part of the group, but the Dogma influenced director who I really, really like is um, Nicolas Winding Refn. Who his breakout film was called "Pusher" about a drug dealer in the streets of Copenhagen. And I think it was 1996 or something. And I saw it with my dad at the cinema when I was like 18. And my dad was really like, "Don't watch this bit," cuz it's like it's pretty extreme, but it's also really funny. It's a genuinely like laugh-out-loud funny film, but it's very violent. It's very messed up. A brilliant film.

>> I saw that one.

>> It's like on the edges of my memory. Like...

>> but I mean, cuz like when I was teaching at Kampala Film School, I held up "Pusher" as like an example. It's low budget, no lighting, you know, it's just super simple to make, no famous actors, brilliant story,

>> you know, and yeah, I'm so I'm interested to to hear like about the mentors who recommended this stuff. Oh, by the way, so footnote, uh, Nicolas Winding Refn is now like a massive Hollywood director. He did "Drive" with Ryan Gosling. He did uh a few other films that recently that aren't so successful, but very good, like "Only God Forgives," sort of very violent films, but sorry, um, mentors, Dogma, what were they teaching you?

>> No, the mentors, you know, like there was Misha Film Lab. So how do you get started? I'm also an alumni, by the way. By, I think, so I I was in 2011. Is it 2011 or 2013?

>> 2011. I had gone off like...

>> I was there. I think the second lot.

>> Okay. Yeah.

>> Cuz they started in 2005. I didn't get into the 2005 lot. I got into the 2006. No man, it's long ago. I can't remember.

>> Yeah, it was 2006. It was eight years ago.

>> Yeah, because 2007 is when I made "What Happened in Room 13."

>> So, it was your first.

>> No, my first professional film.

>> Okay. I'd done a few experimental, like one-minute, two-minute things, but yeah, that is kind of what I put out as this is my first film. So um, yeah, the the mentors I met, I remember there was Filipe Barbosa. I don't know where how far he went with his filmmaking. It's a while since we talked, but he's a Brazilian. And then there was Joshua Marston. Josh, he made this film "Maria Full of Grace." It was kind of an indie film. The last I heard of him, he had made another film that won something at Berlinale, I think, the Golden Bear, um, a few years later. But he is the one who actually was pushing me more into the Dogma things and gave me some of the films. Um, but I think those are the two people who really pushed like for the...

>> What is what is your story before that? What pushed you into film?

>> Ah, my story, if I start that...

>> go on, just immediately from Islam, from...

>> Okay, so what um, I was 15 years old.

>> Okay.

>> Um, in secondary school.

>> It's like form...

>> Form three, actually, third term. And I was reading a book and exams were like one week away, two weeks away. So at that point, someone, I was reading a novel, a big, I think it was a Stephen King novel, I don't remember. But...

>> Stephen King was one of my favorites at that time. And then um, this guy was like, he was puzzled because everybody was, you know, panicking on notes and what. And me, I was here on like, I'd been chopping class almost the whole time. And the guy was like, "You don't care about your future?" Like, "Why are you reading a novel instead of, you know, books?"

>> And I'm like, "This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to write novels." And he started laughing. And And then he told the whole dormitory and everybody was laughing at me. And that day, I started writing my first novel. And they were even laughing, they were like, "This this guy is mad." But somehow I passed. And I remained in the stream. I don't know if they still do it, but they used to, those streams of very bright students. Ours was M. And I remained in M. And they were all puzzled, you know, like, "What trick does this guy use?" But now, in retrospect, I think it's because um, you know, the when you read for pleasure, it becomes easy to read for books. And I think that's a trick that people are not teaching their stu children. If you ever have a child, no, just make them read novels, not school books, because, you know, you kind of train your brain to understand better when you... what? So and I think that's why I would pass. Like I would read, I will get their notes. And some of them had this habit, like, "You don't read before exams because you'll get confused." So they will throw away their notes. And then I'll pick and I read. Ah, good life back.

>> Yeah. And so um, that's when I started actually writing um, through my senior four. I remember in senior four, second term, I ran away from home and from school.

>> to Nairobi to have my first book published.

>> Um, yeah.

>> Wait, how old were we?

>> I was 15 years.

>> 16 years.

>> 16 years. Yeah. Because I I got their address on the back of a book and I was like, "Oh, East African Publishers, Nairobi." I think it was somewhere in Westlands, their offices. So I went with my handwritten book.

>> Can you just like, just a brief of the journey?

>> It was a like a...

>> How did you get out? You were at the boarding school. You jumped out the window?

>> No,

>> you walked out the gate. Oh, it was a it was a that boarding school was um, we it was a jungle kind of. I call it jungle because it wasn't very strict like these other boarding schools. You could walk out any time, walk in any time. There was no fence sometimes.

>> Which school was that?

>> St. Peter's College, Tororo.

>> Okay. Yeah. To have so many friends from there.

>> Yeah. So, you know, it was so free that sometimes students will go and drink. There was a this place we called Casoli. It was like a slum, slummy area. So students will go and drink in Casoli and then they will be staggering back to school drunk. The headmaster comes, finds them, tells them, "Jump on his car and takes them and tells them, 'Go and sleep. Don't disturb people.'"

>> Wow. That is how free the...

>> Also near the border. So that's why...

>> yeah, it was really close to the border.

>> But still, come on. That's why it makes sense that the idea that you can go to Kenya is even possible.

>> I'm just sorry, we're massively digressing here. But actually, I find it very interesting that this creative mind came out of that liberal school environment, right? Cuz that's really unusual for Uganda. No, I mean, like what I've heard is that Ugandan boarding schools, especially 25, 30 years ago, even, were like really heavy discipline. I mean, your backside would be burning for weeks after an escapade like that normally.

>> Yeah. I went and I think the whole school knew because nobody could find me and I came back and not even one teacher called me to the...

>> Oh, okay. That's that's interesting.

>> But you and when you got to the the office, East African Publishing, Yeah. They told me, "We only take typed manuscripts."

>> Mine was handwritten.

>> So I had to find my way back to Uganda.

>> Ah, it's an adventure. I'll maybe write a because...

>> that's a movie. That same movie. I remember um, I ran out of money and then some Ugandans there were traders there. They changed and they gave me transport. I jumped on a bus. They were like, "If you reach, if you reach the border, will you find your way?" I said, "Yeah, my home is just next to the border." And that's how they gave me the...

>> That's really nice of them. Wow. Well, it's it's a heartwarming story, bro. This is a Hollywood script. Uh, yeah, one day maybe I'll sit down and write it. So I come back home and okay, I might come back to my senses and I focus on senior four. I pass it second grade, then I focus on A-level. I pass. But I never stopped writing. And then I kept writing until even through university. I remember trying to get into Monitor and New Vision, but they were not doing fiction. My first stories were published in the New Vision when they were doing uh fiction. They had a fiction section that was 2001. But there was really no publishing opportunities. Up to now, Uganda is like this place you can't make money as a writer. Yeah. So by 2002, 2003, it was really clear to me that man, there's no way you're going to make it off as a writer because there was no publishing industry. There was there was literally nothing.

>> for >> yeah, the culture for reading was not there. But at this time, this is when Nollywood films were, you know, kicking off. And like now, all libraries, people are like, "Have you seen Nigerian films? Have you seen Nigerian films?" And like, all the video libraries, if you don't stock a Nigerian film, you don't make money. And that's when the first idea of, you know, making a film came to me. I was like...

>> What were you doing in... I want to first put this business together.

>> I did HELL.

>> Okay, so it...

>> Yeah. Okay. Okay.

>> Was what? History.

>> History, Economics, and Literature.

>> Okay.

>> That's hell.

>> Okay.

>> That's hell. I had to decide to talk of that.

>> Yeah. Okay. Okay.

>> That makes sense. And you never considered to write nonfiction?

>> I did. I did because I remember that time and it's actually the biggest push I got. The Sunday Vision editors. There was Joe Kimmbo and Simon Caheru. Those names can't get out of my mind because I they called me to their office like when I went to pick my check. It was a 30,000 shillings, you know, I had to travel all the way. I spent I think 15,000 on transport to and fro to get 30,000. But...

>> for me, it was...

>> where was MTN? You know...

>> for me, like it was more about uh, because I wanted to write and I wanted that. And, you know, like if you get that kind of chance right now, you know, there's it's very easy to write your blog and get published. But back then, it was really hard. And just to see your name in print was it was a big motivator, basically. So um, I I went to, they called me to their office when I went to pick the check. I know. And then somebody say, "Oh, this guy has come, Dilman." And then it was Simon who, "Oh, Dilman, you're the one. Dilman was taking me around the whole Sunday Vision editorial guys. This is Dilman. It showed me like, this is Dilman." I was like, "What's..."

>> That's really nice. That's that's really cool. And then he took me. Joe Kimmbo is a really cool guy. I I massively admire him.

>> So that was the first time I met him, the one and only time. And then said, and then he was like, "Do you want to be our eastern stringer?" Like, "What is that?" Say, "You write for us news from the eastern region." Like, "Okay." And then of course, every time you write news, they were like, "Fiction is not going far because, you know, anytime they can stop it." I think they stopped the fiction thing four, five months later. But they gave me a letter and said, um, "If you can make it as a stringer, get for us news. Here is a letter introducing you as a New Vision stringer." I think I have that letter.

>> So I went back to Tororo and there was this guy, what was his name? Abraham ODK. He was the journalist in town. So I showed him, I said, "They have told me to be coming to you, bring news and we pass through you."

>> So yeah, I tried looking for news, writing nonfiction, but...

>> it wasn't your heart was...

>> I remember trying to write this story. There's a guy, a person had killed um his wife and chopped her to pieces. And so I was trying to write that story and it ended up as a short story, a short horror.

>> I was just about to say, and now I know where you got it from. Yeah. I mean, so many of your films have these um basic... Yeah. Someone trying to dispose of a body is a recurrent theme.

>> Yeah.

>> Like...

>> Yeah. I I interviewed a lot of people and then I couldn't write. But because I kept thinking of, you know, the fiction thing, like, yeah, so I failed. I wrote back to these guys, I told them, "Sorry, I can't do..."

>> yeah, "I can't do nonfiction."

>> Do you think your that background in like kind of covering small-town crime fed into your later interest in like portraying these incidents on screen?

>> No, I was already interested in uh horror stuff. Remember I told you Stephen King was my big...

>> I was like a big fan of Stephen King. So I was already leaning towards dark, very dark uh stories. Um, and so even when I started making films, the very first film I wrote, it was very dark and uh about a headmaster raping school girls and killing them and then...

>> nice. Why can we watch that?

>> It never got me.

>> A wonder.

>> But did you was that something that you were like, you wanted to expose? Was this kind of uh...

>> Not exposing. It was basically just a story, like a serial killer because at that time serial killer stories were big.

>> and I wanted to write a serial killer story, but not the...

>> typical bad guy.

>> Yeah. Like I was just like, yeah, serial killers, you know, uh, somebody, you know, and a very normal...

>> respectable.

>> Yeah. And like he doesn't like keep fetishes, like chopping hands, but he just and kills and then buries them in his backyard. And I wrote that script. And um, this was I think 2002, 2003. There were at that time, we I I was in this Yahoo group for writers around East Africa. And then I met a Kenyan filmmaker called um, Kenyan Wangu. She was a big name at that time. She had made a film I think in '94 that went to festivals and things like that. And then I pitched to her this script. And then she picked it and she was like, "Oh, give me like," she optioned it, basically. Uh, and then I was like, "Oh yeah, this is what I was really looking for." But then she never produced it. And of course, I also never produced it. Uh, it is still somewhere there on my drives. Yeah. But then, um, it was the eye-opener. But then I started now thinking more about, you know, u more other filmmakers, you know, like around. Cuz at that time in Uganda, film was very young. It was actually non-existent.

>> and people are still, you know, sketching, sketching. I think the first person to make a film...

>> "Roses in the Rain" or somewhere, 2004. I forget their name.

>> Okay.

>> But I remember "Roses in the Rain." I don't remember who did that, but during Amakula, I think, you know, some of those guys.

>> Yeah, there was a a guy who used to make a lot of films like every other year he was making...

>> I know Matt Bish. No.

>> What about Ashra?

>> Matt was Ash. Yeah, very cool guy.

>> I've not met him, but I remember his...

>> Yeah, he's an interesting man.

>> um, they had not started it at that time. What was your big break? What was your film that made that put you on the map?

>> Um, I think that was "What Happened in Room 13?"

>> "What Happened in Room 13," which has like...

>> how many million views on YouTube?

>> More than 8 million.

>> Pretty good.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, wow.

>> So, yeah, I saw I saw it like years ago and I didn't know it was by you. I like I think it came up somewhere and I watched it and thought, I mean, it is very funny. It's it's also super dark. Weird.

>> Yeah, I was trying to make a horror.

>> But it is it is funny. Come on. I mean, it's full of dark humor like from first to last.

>> Well, and and is it full in English?

>> No, it's silent.

>> It's a silent film.

>> Wow.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. I think...

>> Well, it's a dialogue-free film, not silent.

>> Okay. So around that time, you know, like uh, I was trying because at that time I really just wanted to be a writer.

>> I was very shy and, you know, very introvertish. I think I have autism. I've never diagnosed, but that is it, you know, like socially uncomfortable when I'm in people. So I thought, "Oh, I'll just write and, you know, sell." But then um, I think I I wrote a script at that time. I started, I think 2005, 2004. So I kept going for their events and meeting people. And I think one of those events I met um, Kabaka. I think that was 2004, 2005. And then she was also in a big name at that time, I think with UBC or something. So I gave her this script, a short film that I had written. Uh, and then she produced it. Uh, and I think that is the time when people in Kampala started hearing of me.

>> That was "Room 13"?

>> No, no, that was not "Room 13."

>> What was that?

>> That was after the silence.

>> Okay. I don't think I've seen that. Is that on YouTube?

>> I don't know.

>> But it was 2004, 2005. Then...

>> Can you tell us a little bit about your experience with Amakula? And not everyone's heard of it, so you might have to explain what it is.

>> Amakula. Yeah, it was the film festival. I think the first film festival in Uganda and it ran for many years up to I don't remember when. I think I attended the last two, maybe, or so.

>> when it started, it was like kind of the the film festival, like the film event, you know, and it was a a a good platform because they will bring first good films into Kampala. At that time, actually, I was not staying in Kampala. I was like way out in Kamuli. I had got a job with one of these NGOs. So I would come from Kamuli to Kampala just to attend Amakula. And they had these, they were not exactly networking, but they had workshops that they will bring filmmakers from outside. I remember there were two guys, I think from Sweden. They were Swedish Ugandans who came. I think that's the time when I met Iden Kabaka and the other filmmakers in Kampala. I think it was called Karim Baker and...

>> Oh, Karen Baker. He's still active.

>> Yeah, he's a big name. Kenyan, Kenyan Swedish.

>> Ugandan Swedish.

>> Oh, is it Ugandan Swedish?

>> Yeah. Okay, I stand corrected. But there's a Kenyan connection because they've just made a film in Kenya which I've just seen called "The Dog."

>> Very good film.

>> So that makes him Kenyan.

>> Karen Baker. No, I mean, sorry. Uh, yeah.

>> But I thought... Yeah. Anyway, but but but okay, about Amakula. Um...

>> what was it about Amakula that made it different as a festival for you?

>> No, it's just because of this, you know, like first meeting other filmmakers and it was the first film festival I was ever attending.

>> The only one, I think.

>> The only one at that time. And um, but also, you know, like when you're struggling as a filmmaker and you're not finding people like Kyanu, I never met her. I've never met her at all, but we will meet online.

>> Who is that? Sorry.

>> The Kenyan lady I told you.

>> Oh, yeah, yeah. So um, with Amakula, like most of the audience were either filmmakers or want-to-be filmmakers. I don't think Ugandan film has ever gone to the place where the audiences is 90% just, you know...

>> we'll we'll come to that in a minute.

>> I wanted to... You talked about Nigerian films.

>> and I want to understand that influence there because you say it's a big part that moves you from writing to...

>> Yes. Because at that point, like I realized a lot of people are watching films, you know, and it struck me at that moment that if I make films, I can make money more than if I wrote...

>> books.

>> Yeah. Because it was like, you go to a video library, everyone was asking for a Nigerian film. The one that I used to go to, they had a whole shelf, I think two shelves, Nigerian, and only one shelf had...

>> the other movie.

>> Hollywood. Yeah. And I watched the first Nigerian film. I was like, you know, it's very basic.

>> It was like Dogma, but without the good storytelling.

>> That's harsh.

>> Yeah.

>> But true.

>> But true. Yes. But then the thing is, people were watching.

>> People were watching it and people are paying for it. And that was the first time I was like, "Okay, I I probably can make money."

>> out of film. And then I started looking for ways to learn film. Did you sort of did you look at the Nigerian films and think, "I can do that, but better?" Was that your thing?

>> That was the exact thought. I was like...

>> "This, you know, like I can get a a wedding. People who do wedding videos, they shoot for me this film and I edit it and I can make money."

>> "I'm going to do it my twisted way."

>> Yeah. Yeah. And...

>> cuz your story, your films are not like classic Nigerian dramas. I mean, they're very different.

>> No, of course. But I was looking at it more from the money point of view.

>> Right.

>> Making a job out of it.

>> Yes. Because I was looking more at people are watching, people are paying to watch this.

>> and so there is, yeah, there is a way if I make a film, I can, you know...

>> I never got that sense with with writing.

>> because I I would go for, I don't remember any literature festival, but there were some events mostly at Mary. I never got the sense that if I wrote a book, I'm going to become a big seller.

>> Spoiler alert, Uganda is not the only country where writers are broke.

>> It's like if anyone's kids, you know, come come to them and go like, "I want to be a writer." You go like,

>> yeah,

>> "It's bad enough going into film or music, right? But writing, oh, forget it." You know.

>> I mean, right now it's a bit better.

>> But at that time, the only thing you could think about is getting an agent, getting published in the in the West.

>> Yeah, exactly.

>> And of course, all the opportunities.

>> Come on. I mean...

>> Even very successful writers are still not like rich. It's quite rare.

>> But yeah, that time it was even worse. But now it is better. I mean, there's self-publishing has become really easy. And also with ebooks, um, I actually make some bit of money now from my books and my...

>> stories.

>> And there's a big upsurge of interest now in African literature, you know, in the last 20 years, completely changed.

>> Exactly. And also they no longer expect uh the kind of literature that at that time I didn't even...

>> Yeah, I know what you mean. Chwa Chwa kind of off...

>> or if not, then it's something poverty-ish, you know, it's...

>> a message. Who's your favorite writer from the old days? Like of the the classics.

>> The one we never read him in school. There's someone called Amos Tutuola.

>> Oh, yeah. He's brilliant. "The Palm-Wine Drinkard," "My Life in a Bush of Ghosts."

>> So those are the kinds of stories I want to read. I want to write. Yeah.

>> We've never, I I had to to discover after school, you know, like, but if they gave us those books at school, I mean...

>> uh, did you did you read uh the Moses series in school?

>> Yeah, that was. I've read the Moses.

>> That was in primary.

>> Oh, okay. For us, we didn't know them. We did the Mo...

>> I remember Moses P5P. Unless there was another...

>> found some of them in like an old bookshop the other day. Moses...

>> like little, you know, action adventure books. They there's a there should be a Moses book about escaping from boarding school to get your book published movie series TV show because so interesting. Yeah.

>> um, do and you weren't a fan of Wole Soyinka?

>> I'm not really. Up to now, like some people, you know, they think highly of him. And probably he is one of the ones that I might try to read. But school spoiled him for me.

>> I I know what you mean.

>> Yeah. Like I thought it's it's a textbook.

>> You're told how to interpret it. It's like it's very rigid, the way...

>> So I came out of school like, "No, I'm not reading Soyinka." And I keep, people keep pushing his books to me and like, "Oh, it's a fantasy. It's a sci-fi." I'm like, "Yeah, but it's a school book."

>> Whoops. Yeah. [ __ ]

>> Can um So I find I thought your question was really good about the Nigerian films, by the way. And I'd like to draw out like the contrasts. So what is it in film that you do that's different from that approach to the classics of Nigerian dramas? How would you look at your own films in relationship to, cuz you know, you said quite explicitly, "I went into the libraries, I started watching these movies." What's the leap from those kind of films to what you wanted to do? How did you bridge that? How did you conceptualize it?

>> Um, I think for me, it was more like when I watch a Nigerian film, I knew the story wasn't there and uh, the acting was also really horrible, but I knew I was a good writer and I knew I could tell good stories. But what motivated me from the Nigerians...

was just their production because they were not uh, waiting for, you know, >> big budget to make a film. They were picking up whatever. I think most of it was, you know, the same cameras they use for weddings is the cameras they were using for for to shoot. And I think the first, if you hear the Nollywood story, the first person who the person who supposedly started Nollywood used to sell video tapes and he had a lot of empty videotapes and then he wanted to sell them. >> I think it was a a wedding business kind of thing. And so they made their first film and put it in videotapes and then he was selling products. So it was more the concept of I can make money out of this and that was the only thing I got from the Nollywood uh thing.

Um eventually when I started learning how to make films, I didn't go their way because I I was looking more of course at the more uh not properly made but the classics you know I've read uh Pollansky Roman Polanski was one of the first people I studied so that I could make films like him. >> What's your favorite Pollinsky film? Uh there's off my head now I can't even think of it but there is the >> describe it >> there are the short films that he did and actually I should credit Roman Pollansky for making me make films without dialogue >> right >> because in one of these master classes it gave I think it was at the back of a DVD you back then you know like to make DVDs much more sellable there were all these directors notes >> which I love I I I I used to watch all of them the extras. I'm an extras extras. So um >> so he was doing a master class on storytelling or >> something like that. Yeah. And I remember I don't remember where it was but I remember it was Roman Pollansky who did said like if you want to make it as a filmmaker you should make films without dialogue the short films without dialogue. And I was like, "Oh, okay." Because like we didn't have film school and I was learning from um from people like this because even this was before Maisha, you know. Um like I would Google. Okay. Google was thereish. >> Yeah. I think it was early 2000s or >> Yeah, it was there maybe. Yeah. Because I got a Gmail in 2005. So >> yeah, it was there. It was about >> but Google it was >> there was ask jibs there was yahoo >> there was yahoo as well >> yeah anyway I was searching the internet I Google has spoiled us but I was searching the internet and I would come up you know with all these articles about filmmaking and that's how I would read and yeah >> do do you remember there was a Roman Palansky film I think it's his first feature called uh knife in the water it's that's the translated title. It's called something unpronounceable. >> Watching all his early films >> cuz Knife in the Water Knife in the Water is a good example of it's not it has lots of dialogue in it, but it doesn't really need the dialogue and it's it's almost like physical theater. It's all set on a most of it's set on a boat >> and it's it's inspired lots of other films uh including a very good Australian thriller called Dead Calm. So, it's it's the idea that your three of you are trapped on a boat. You got a couple and a psycho. Okay. And it's a great formula because boats are very claustrophobic. Yes. Yes. >> You know, um and there and and it's >> knife in the water is a commentary on class. So, the young the psycho is a young boy who is kind of a drifter and the couple are a kind of upwardly mobile uh bourgeoa Polish couple. And this is in like in the '60s where they've come out of the Second World War. It's po Poland is a kind of new modern country in Eastern Europe and then there's this guy who kind of comes into their life and so it's got this class commentary and very intense kind of claustrophobic drama on a boat and a lot about masculinity. The two men are kind of competing for the woman. Um and just brilliant camera work. >> You think I I remember I remember watching all his films. I'm sure you saw. >> But the one that stuck to me, there was this thing with uh two men carrying a mirror. >> It was a short film. >> Okay. >> Like was it a mirror or a wardrobe? A wardrobe that has a mirror >> and they're what? They're walking through the city or something. I'd love to see his short films now. I've never seen >> short films. >> Okay. I'm going to see them. Send me >> because one of his short films and it's the one that we >> may maybe maybe we could include a link under the >> Yeah. Yeah. It sounds good. Good tip. I'm also curious. So before um before you know you want to make films, >> what movies are you watching? Because for me my story is I first watch movies and I'm like wow this is the only if if there was a way you could lock me in a room and I watch movies forever. >> Maybe I'll live forever. >> That's when it's after I enjoy watching movies that I start uh liking to make movies. But I'm I'm wondering because I see for you like to write and now you decide that uh filming is a good product. you know films are good product people going to buy them but before then what movies are you watching before you know that making a movie is >> I was watching everything and anything >> okay >> because uh I didn't uh like I grew up in a very how is leafare the the word I went to a school that was very free >> but also home it was it was very free like >> you could do you could watch anything >> yeah, but not we didn't have a TV we had uh the film the Chibandas. >> Yeah. So it was my favorite hangout and I would watch everything there. >> What were they showing in the Chibanda? What do you remember watching? >> Of course Chinese all Chinese kung fu >> kung fu. There was Indian films Bollywood >> dancing singing. >> Exactly. I watched a lot of that growing up. >> Sylvester Stallone stuff as well. >> Yeah. Every actor >> and then >> what's that? you don't he's a big Indian star. Okay. Yeah. And so like we were like we are going to watch Amtabachan. And then when I went to Nepal 2009, people I'll taban and they like >> they're like so I'll begin singing a song and they'll tell me no that's not and >> I knew like every Indian film was >> like I would sing the one that I remember Jimmy something like that right and they say no that's not that's Ah but yeah, I watched a lot of that and then of course we watch also a lot of um Hollywood films um like those chibandas I don't know it was it was like a a mishmash of everything you know >> mostly it was films that have action but also there were films like with with stories with drama I remember the matrix we were watching the matrix even 3 weeks before they were officially released Wow. >> I remember that because we we used to have like I would read newspapers and then in the they will said the matrix is you know opening weekend is next week but you know we already had it. >> Wow. And were there like did you ever go to the cinema in Kala? Were there any cinemas open at the time? >> No I was I didn't grow up in Kala. I came to Kala when I was an adult. You know, even Amakul, I would come from Cami. Yeah. To attend Amakul and then go back. >> And what when you were growing up, where by the way, which town did you grow up in as a kid? >> Uh, Toro and then >> Toro. >> Toro is where? Yeah. Cam, it was mostly work. But those are the two towns I lived in before. >> And in Toruro, sorry, I just got just curious. Um, did you have these like outdoor cinema experiences where No, that didn't happen. The only experience we had was chibanda. >> Chibanda video holes. >> Video halls. Yeah. But at that time it was not translated and we actually hated translated films. Maybe because you know Tro is not a Luganda speaking. Okay. There is Luganda but majority will yeah, is much bigger there. Yeah. >> So, those translated films came later on but majority was just you know, the original >> always small screen. It's just like relatively small screens, right? >> Small screen, small rooms as small as this, you know, very dark >> cigarette smoke mirror. >> That was not Warachi. Really? Why? >> No. Like a mirror and cigarette smoke. >> You can't No booze. >> No, I don't booze. >> Really? >> I don't know. It was just a thing. >> Maybe boo. Yeah, cuz booze drunk people are noisy. interrupt the film. >> Yeah. But there was a lot of mirror. They would eat a lot of mirror and >> some will smoke the weed, but it wasn't very >> I see. No, I wanted to ask because TC is known for taekwondo, right? Uh maybe maybe that's after you, but many everyone actually I know from TC >> claims to be the best taekwondo. We used to have taekondo >> and but our headmaster at that time didn't like it. >> Oh, okay. I see. >> He liked boxing. Oh, okay. >> He would promote boxing, but he hated like he hated karate. >> You've got a good one that will get you expelled. >> Really? Yeah. >> Really? That's weird. >> I remember that there was a guy he had a chunku. >> Yeah. >> Was expelled? >> That's the only >> Were you a boxer? >> No. >> But you you got good reach, I guess. >> I've never been into >> Yeah. I I I've always wondered why. I was thinking maybe it was because of the film culture there, but maybe not. >> Oh, Taekwondo, right? Yeah. >> Um, I don't know. It maybe came later, but at the time I was there at Taekondo, it was frowned upon. >> Like we had the boxing was the bigger thing. But Taekwondo, there was a bit of it, but it was on the law and the headmaster was not a a cool fan of it. M >> um can can we talk a little bit about your new short films? I'm sorry, I'm just slightly aware of time. >> Yeah, 100%. >> Yeah. Um so um the the three films of yours that I've watched recently. Um, yeah, I wanted to I wanted to talk about three the three so Eve um Night Dancer and then Room 13. That's my personal interest. Then also I wanted to ask about distribution and about your approach to business. >> Okay. >> Like how you know how you so let's start with that >> business. >> Yeah. The business side of things. So >> um >> what I've noticed Yeah. Well no I mean I mean of course none of us are making any money but this is film. But my question is um you've got a very personalized approach to distributing your film. >> Mhm. >> You've got a website which is your film company name. And earlier in the conversation you mentioned that you like an approach where you like share with your peers more than let's say kind of putting yourself out there online, right? Mhm. >> Um, talk us through your approach to distributing your films and are you happy with it? What would you like to see happening in distribution? >> Um, yeah, distribution, you know, it's a big thing. I mean, I've not cracked it, but I think I've found a formula that kind of works for me. And I think in Uganda uh of course we make money like you you sell to the only buyer DSTV and that you know you can make some good chunks of money there but of course there's a certain kind of thing that they're looking for and I I give them the comedies and that works but uh what I really like to make is the sci-fi stuff and you know fantasy and things like that and Um so when I started out even what happened in room 13 was supposed to be a ghost story but then I didn't have um the technicalities of making the ghost and you know all those kind of things and then the mentors were like you know it's a simpler story if you just you know keep it the way it is eventually and so I cut down on the ghosts and and >> I I mean it works very well as a story as it is is Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean that was the thing that I took away from the mentors and of course also uh at that time I was thinking more of dark films and they were like you know you you have a thing for comedy. Uh the other film I did the felista's fable it was also supposed to be a horror and then oh Steve Cohen he was one of the other mentors his film the bachelor he wrote that film the bachelor it was a big comedy hit I think one of the biggest comedy hits at some point but he hated it because he was like Hollywood spoiled his script >> and then yeah he gave me a lot of tips also on um script writing. I think I learned a lot from him. Um yeah so he's the one who who kind of pushed me more towards comedy like and then after that that I made Felista's fable as a comedy not a horror and then after that I started uh making clear definitions on genre >> what would the horror Felista's fable have looked like what would have changed >> kind of the same story line but the the the main character was more of a monster she was killing people >> oh I see >> and She kidnaps this guy. Same story. She wants to use him in a sacrifice >> and then to take off the curse, >> but then it's there's just a lot of slashing charger and blood and >> just more violence >> more violence and then >> but yeah, the guy was like, "Dilman, this is not a horror. This is a romantic comedy, >> right? >> With lots of violence in it." Yeah. >> But yeah, can so I I hope it's not awkward to ask this, so just answer it in any way you like, but um you know, why didn't Felistister's Fable get a full release? Why didn't it go like in terms of Okay, talk me through the way it was released and talk me through how you would like it to have happened. So what happened and what should have happened? >> Yeah. Okay. Distribution. We're talking of the distribution because Yeah. So I did get into film like I said with a thing about you know making money the the Nollywood way and there was already some kind of you know but by the time I made the Felistas Febo 2013 of course piracy was really really high and the other thing was that um to for it to release a film you needed you know to put it in the theater you needed to have a lot of you know advertising ing stuff you need to advertise it to push it there. And of course at that time the guy people I used in the film they were all kind of big stars around that time. Kudu uh he was a star like was very very famous from the host series. Same with Tiba Murji and then uh Veronica and Amanda. She was also a big star from the fun factory thing. I think they still do the fun factory. So I had like a marketable cast. Yeah. Um the challenge was I was doing the maths and it was not math math. It wasn't ming properly because I asked someone they were for in an ad company and then they were like if I'm to put my film you know national theater I want advertisements you know they they were giving me a budget was around a very conservative one around between 2 million and 5 million to just push the film market it um I I had to you know rent the national theater of course that time there ways you could talk to them for splitting the the thing there all these options but the initial investments it was coming to to a lot of money >> and then you'd already invested in making the film. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then uh it wouldn't have been a problem if there was a certainty some guarantee yeah >> of selling it and actually making back that money. But that is where now I had problems because I would see everybody who was doing a premier and you know red carpet flashy things but they were not making back the money they were putting in into that premier and it was not making economic sense to me and people were telling me like you just release you'll get the money but I was like I'll be losing money and I didn't you know I've already had this kind of business thing like I should put money where I'm going to to make it back. So, um I was thinking of all those things and then I was like, I don't think I'm going to do a premier, you know. And uh there were other ways of making back that money. And at this point, I had um uh I had made some films in Nepal, documentary films. So, I got a TV distributor and I remember making more money from that TV distributor than I could ever think about. You know, they'll send me like about €2,000 at the end of the year, €3,000 from selling my documentaries. And >> and these are like the halfhour documentaries, 20 minute documentaries you're making in Nepal. >> Yeah. And and you ended up in Nepal because h how did that happen? >> Sorry, we're digressing. It's quite interesting. If I keep jumping like this, >> no, no, we're coming back to the point just quickly. What was the >> I went to Nepal. Um I think there's a time I I was working in Camolei. I had this very good job with an NGO and I was earning a very handsome salary and all that. But then after making what happened in room 13 sort of everybody was now saying my name and you know like because I think nobody had seen that kind of film in East Africa. I'm not sure of Africa but at least in Uganda it everyone's like is this a Ugandan? >> Yeah. Some people will watch the film and then they'll say this is a mongu because they'll even see my name and like it's not okay Ugandan name and then they will say Uganda and they're like you made that film. >> So um there was that kind of excitement that I was getting you know like when you get that kind of vibe you know from people some Ellen Gualic. >> Yeah I know Ellen Great Lakes. Yeah. >> She kept telling me >> the the late sadly. Yeah. Great great woman. She did die. Yeah. Like 3 years ago, I think. >> Yeah. Anyway. >> Yeah. But anyway, she told me she wanted to give me some directing gigs and she was offering I think it was 2.5 million at that time for a two week job >> which was what I was earning like in 3 months >> the NO. And then I couldn't take it because uh I couldn't get leave. And then she was like, why don't you resign you if you get you there's a lot more gigs like this that you can survive on. >> So there was all these things happening to me and I was like okay maybe it's time I quit. >> Follow your heart and you but what's your kid >> and that's where I'm coming to. So I I resign and then all these offers dry up. as expected. I don't know what he's calling yet. I mean, >> yeah, I was going to think it's it's it's kind of irresponsible. It's like in music whenever an artist comes to record at our studio and they're like, "I'm going all in. I've quit my job. I've, you know, sold my car. I'm going all in on this album." And I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no." Like, "Call your boss now and say I'm sorry." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So it was something of that kind because um >> but like there was also an emnet thing that offered me I think it was $600 per episode in Kenya at that time to write it. know there all these offers that that were coming in when I was had my job and then but I had to go to Nairobi for the writing room and I couldn't do it when I was I I I asked for leave then on my way to the airport the Nairobi guys called and said we've canceled we postponed the >> the writing thing to the other week I met like two or three weeks later but then you know with the organizations >> Yeah. Yeah. You got us. >> No, I mean fair enough. If I was your boss, I do the same. >> So yeah, I had I couldn't cancel my leave because, you know, it had all those things that happened. So very frustrating. >> Yes. >> And then when I resigned, none of these offers come up. >> So I'm you know trying to sketch around and then someone told me that you man in Campala here it's you better you better off as a cameraman than a director because nobody knows director. They know you know. >> True. >> Camera operators. you can get jobs as a camera operators and yeah, I was a bit depressed but then uh there was this thing in I saw a call for uh volunteers to go to Nepal not to Nepal but they can post you wherever in the world and um so but you had of course to say what you're going to do there and what you like because I we keep seeing white people coming out volunteers most of them are actually from organizations like that but I think >> what was the name of this one >> to volunteer services overseas. >> Oh Vo big one. >> Yeah. So um I wrote because at that time video advocacy was kind of catching up like people are just getting small cameras in their hands for the first time. I think phone cameras had not yet come in, but they were really cheap cameras that were moving around. And so I I was like, "Oh, yeah, I have this experience with the NGO world and I have this experience as a filmmaker, so I can create some programs around video advocacy." >> I was like, "Okay, cool. We can find you where to go with this kind of skills." And so they an organization Nepal accepted to host me and that's how I ended up there for 2 years in a small town like more than 2 days on a bus from the capital city. >> And so they hadn't met many Africans before. >> No, it was a horrible experience. >> Were you the horrible? >> Yeah, it was like too extreme. But let's not go there. >> We'll divert and keep diverting. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, that's the next interview we'll do. Yeah. So, yeah, I went there and I made uh three films. There was one on disability, >> the um sound of >> the sound of one leg dance. >> It's brilliant. Yeah, thanks for sending that. Is that publicly available? >> Yes, that's publicly available and it I think won me my very first Howard >> really >> in Nepal. >> Yeah, the they won it. It's beautifully shot and it's very intimate and I love the way that you don't realize that she's disabled until some minutes into the film. >> You know, it's really clever and very touching. Uh it's a great subject. Did you make friends with the subject the >> We kept in touch on Facebook for a while >> until a few years ago. >> Yeah. >> Another one I made three films. The the other one was also about a blind the dancing poet. There was this girl. She was blind but she was a dancer and she could choreograph dances. It was also Yeah. She came actually to Uganda recently and we met up I think just before COVID or after COVID I don't remember but around that time and it was weird. And then the third film I made was you know untouchable love. It's the one that made the most money. talking not money but it sold a bit because it was um the story about you know intercast marriages. >> Yeah. So um like it was the longer version and it was the one that they could it could get >> Do you think being like an East African filming from out you know you're from outside of their community did that give you some kind of >> Yeah. Exactly. I thought because when I came off I thought I was a good documentary filmmaker that I could talk to anyone and they tell me their stories and then I came back to Uganda and I tried to do the same and people are closing doors on me and then I realized they were actually it is easier to talk to a stranger >> absolutely >> than it is to and I realized why when foreigners come to make films in Uganda they find it easy >> because it's the same thing it's not like the color of the skin or anything but just because you realize this person is not from within your area. So you you can easily tell them things but I will go to a home and then you know I get the sense that okay this is a neighbor in quotes I mean not a neighbor neighbor but they know this guy stays within Kala if I tell him ABCD he's going to know it he stays there I mean >> yeah and also that's a sort of thing of being of judging as well it's kind of like >> it's harder to be really open with someone who knows your culture really well you're constantly thinking how they're going to judge you. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, yeah, it was easy to get people to open up on their camera in Nepal than it has ever been and I gave up on documentary film making after >> Oh, you you didn't make any more after a >> That's what I was telling like the last one I tried to make I got to this lady. She was a a traditional herbalist >> but she had a big clinic I think might still be there in in Ka and tell her story you know how she mixes uh modern clinic environment with herbo medicine and you know >> kind of yeah >> sounds interesting >> so she was like oh yeah come come but she thought I was from book day and it was one of those one interview >> and then you move >> and then you go >> and she didn't want the whole particip the patri ethnographic. >> Yeah. Kind of I kept but I kept telling I went there like five times before I went to the camera. >> Yeah. >> You go the first time you tell her this is what I want to do. I want to come here for a whole year. I come once every week and you know so we go the first day we do the filming everything is okay. I go the second day they're like you still here. >> And then the third day nobody comes to meet me. I'm sitting in the sitting room for like 30 minutes, then a child comes g. Wow. >> Wow. >> But I mean, in a way that them getting used to you is exactly what you want. I mean, >> yeah, >> you should have just persisted. I think >> No, I around. >> Yes. I got the the sense that, you know, >> it's not easy. We're we're show you were asking me about documentary the other day. Yeah. I'm having some trouble at the moment. We're making me and a couple of friends are making a film about the youth around this period of elections and how they're interacting with the political situation. And I don't want to go into detail, but it's fascinating because we're dealing with people who are some of them are like in this gray area of the law. Like they're doing stuff that they don't want to be seen doing. A lot of them more on the opposition side are like less uh well they don't want to be seen at all because they're opposition and they know what happened in 2021. Uh so getting these guys to talk or even just to appear on camera in anything but they're like ghetto is really hard. So the minute you go out of the ghetto, they're not comfortable being seen on camera. So it's really challenging. And recent Yeah. I've I mean, I've got so much respect for people who who can make observational film because it's exhausting and it it it's so much work. But from the the only Nepalese film of yours I've seen is the sound of one leg dancing and I I really recommend it. I think it's a wonderful portrait of a you know, an extraordinary human being. Um, and it tells you a lot about the society around her and how they judge beauty and you know, and yeah, it's just it's full of kind of interesting contrasts as a film. >> She's very obsessed with her own image >> uh but she doesn't fit the stereotype of a kind of a model or something. You know, she's an incredible dancer but she's only got one leg and all of these things and she doesn't really seem to care. She's just like this is what I do. >> It's amazing. Uh it's a wonderful film. Yeah. >> We we got into Nepal because we were talking about something completely different >> which is we were talking about your distribution model. >> Yeah. >> And tell us a bit more about that. Tell us a bit more about what went wrong with Felicity's Fable. So where we were you were um unwilling to you were worried about piracy. >> You found the premier too expensive and you were like your you felt like your market was probably in Uganda. I think or not like why didn't you just go full international? Did you apply for festivals? How what was your approach to getting the film out? >> Yeah, international. >> Oh, I know why we got into Nepal because you said I was talking to this TV producer. >> No, the the distributor. >> Yes. >> So, yeah, that's where we were. Let's pick up from there. >> Oh, yeah. So um with Felista's Febo at that time it was also a very weird moment for film making in Africa the the web books were expected to have a certain kind of story and narrative films it was even worse >> because the films at that time they had to be heavily about certain things. I I remember >> like what >> uh AIDS war poverty age war a we call it. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> So um at that time even the the what happened in room 13 >> because all the mentors were like wow we've not seen something like this. I mean if it was made in the US or it would have been doing all the festivals but these guys they had access to programmers in Sundance Rotam I don't know if KS somebody maybe sent to KS but they had that network and they sent this film to all these other people >> and they were all saying no no no because you know they were expecting certain kind of films >> from Uganda not I don't know if it is a comedy or a dark film >> it is just about a man with a dead body. >> It's curiously amoral. It's not a film that takes sides. It's like >> it's pretty twisted. I love it. >> So, u there was there are those things that you had to struggle with as a filmmaker from Africa that time. I know other films that were made um with along with the Felista's fable uh like the paddic side the same time. >> Okay. And the pardon was the festival. No, no, no. >> Who? Okay. >> That was there was a random filmmaker >> and and and you think it did well cuz it was leaning into the genocide narrative. >> I think so. I mean, I don't want to take away from from his uh because he's a he's a good director. He made the second film. He raised money, but of course, it had ties to uh Randan soldiers in Congo uh after the genocide or something like that. Um, but yeah, um felist like it didn't do well as well in any festival. It didn't go to any festival uh outside of a few African festivals but it went to Amma I the Africa movie it was nominated for best first future which was a good thing. >> Yeah. And then after that I think I sold it to Emnet. They bought the rights for like two years and then I got a distributor who also gave me money. So in that way I made more money from these kind of distribution things than if I'd ever put it on what >> as a premier >> as a premiere. >> Sorry, can I ask you I mean I without going into too much detail >> I know that it's not currently available online. >> Is that because of a a deal gone wrong or something? >> Yeah. So the problem comes because with the documentary distributor they were I don't know what what the magic was because every year I would get a check you know here is $2,000 here is $3,000 not dollars because they a UK based thing and I I would like sometimes I'll be so broke and then I just see the email coming. You have your royalities. This >> I think you're the I think you're the first I think you're the first documentary filmmaker I've met in Uganda who's >> had success >> because Okay. How I got it how I got them. I put my film in Docks for Sale. >> Okay. >> On. >> Dogs for sale. Oh, IDA. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> But I had to pay money. I think €3,000 to list it in >> 3,000. >> No, no, 300. Yeah. >> 3,000 is a lot. Yeah. >> No, but now it is actually around there because if you want to list your film in a film market like IDA, >> you I think now it's maybe a,000 because this was 2011. >> And what what films were you putting up for sale? >> That was the love. Yeah. Nepali. >> Oh, that was untouchable love. >> Yeah, cuz that was quite successful at the time. But you know like in Uganda Felista's Fable was much talked about when it came out you know and and because of you had like Kudu and these like relatively big names in it. When I was making my first moves into film everyone referenced Fistister's Fable like I had something to do with that. So if they were an actor they had some part in it. if they were crew, they were kind of second camera assistant, you know, but pe people were kind of very keen to be associated with it. So, I think it was regarded as an important film at the time. And what, you know, I found weird was that when I went to look for it recently online, I'm like, I couldn't get it anywhere. I mean, >> yeah. Okay. So, I was talking about the distributors. So, what happens with distributions? Um, the first distributor I got for Fistas Febo, they were like we are going to sell your thing to all these TVs around the world and I'm like cool. Uh because festival the actual festivals they were not responding which is why I didn't put it on any of these markets as well because uh still with the programmers we try to talk to with from the mentors the Misha mentors they tried to talk to some of them Rotterdam and things like that but they were not very responsive. So I was like if I try to put it on sale I might just be uh I could have got a distributor from there but the the good thing within a year it went to Armor and then after that a distributor is one who who contacted me and told me oh we are actually a big name film distributor in Africa. uh we are giving you there was a guarantee fee but was minimum guarantee >> a minimum guarantee of 2,000 >> and then we're going to sell the film and be sending you the check but you have to sign it off for 7 years. I was like okay I I mean I was okay with it at that point. So they did uh take the film and I think this was like within one year of me producing it and even before I could really settle down and say let me do a premiere and when they do when they take the rights they do take the rights. So for 7 years I couldn't do anything with um felistas. Problem is I kept waiting for the checks. I didn't get any. I kept getting like you they there's uh the fine print in in their contracts where like uh they add money or or like they they charge the film for costs they have incurred on you know the product like if they make a poster to sell the film they will charge it to the film. >> So whatever realities were coming in I will see >> more expensive. Yeah, there was like we gave you 2,000 and then there's all these expenses we are doing and so whatever sales they would make was less than was less than than what I would get. So I was already in negatives with them. So for all the seven years the 2,000 was the only money that I saw from the film even when you will see like uh they are making sales every other time. And yeah, so after that uh I I like the seven years passed and I was like, "Okay, cool. I'll have back my field. Maybe I'll just put it on YouTube because now I mean it's old news." But then another distributor uh gets in touch and they're like, "Oh, we are better." >> Wait, this first one, do you suspect it was foul play? >> No, I think it's just how they do. >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's tricky, isn't it? I mean like we we're learning a lot about distribution at the moment and as a music distributor which I've done for years. It you know sometimes things just don't make that much money. It's quite hard and like even though they let's say it can be a hit on YouTube but YouTube hardly pays anything and then >> if you haven't made numbers across the board it's like so that's an example from music. I don't know like >> I think the the difference with the documentary distributor and this distributor is the documentary people kept the costs very low. I don't think they added they had any costs after >> the expense stuff >> they had no other expenses so I could still get money and I think maybe because they gave me uh they pushed they made me do all the all the things that they they could have done like poster they say send a poster they wanted it on DVC cam tape they were like if you can put it on was it DV cam there was a certain kind of tape that they wanted it on they say either you do this or we do it here and then we bill you. I was like no. >> So I did it from Campala for like 50k and they were they charged me like 500. >> Wow. >> For the thing. So there was all those options that I got. But then for this other distributor, >> there were costs that I was that were questionable, you know, like you've spent €1,000 on marketing material which could have asked me to >> Well, not only that, but if they didn't recoup on those then >> Yeah. And who is in charge of their marketing? You'll find out it's all one guy doing everything and paying himself, you know. >> Yeah. >> Could be. So there Yeah. I don't know the reasons because they big name. >> Let's go to the next distributor. Yeah, >> the next distributor was worse. They didn't give you a minimum guarantee but they were promising. They were like this is good for um this is good for TV I mean not TV airlines like they gave me they told me we have uh I think it was Ethiopian Kenyan and like we going to give them like this. Yeah. But for them they asked for 3 years and I've not seen any money. I've not >> Wow. But yeah, it's expiring this year and um >> you flow Ethopia because I think I saw the film there. >> No, you got me there. >> Yeah. So, uh that's it with distributors. But I think uh film distributors in Africa, I don't know. Like you say, maybe it can just be a bad thing or they are not very honest. Uh I don't know because >> it's it's a it's a weird thing. For me, the thing is that trust. >> When you tell me, I don't know you. I know you're interested in making money that just trust me. Let me count the numbers for you and I tell you when you get when when you're ready to get your cut. Yeah. >> No, but surely, yeah, you you know, you're entitled to a more reasonable sales report. >> Yeah. >> And then also, most of the contracts have a kind of clause about an audit in there. So you can request an audit if you suspect there's something dodgy going on but that's a bit of a gamble because I think you have >> it's very expensive. Yeah. You have to pay for the audit and the companies in South Africa. I mean so you have to pay South Africa. >> Yeah. But I think so by the time you go into all the legalities of asking them where have you sold my film? Can I see the books? You would have spent like 20 $30,000. In theory though that those costs are on them. If it's found out that they were cheating you, they have to cover the costs. I saw that in our contract. >> Yeah. >> But you know, we've had like a really interesting experience selling Imperial Blue, which you know, we got reviewed by quite big people, you know, and we got reviewed by the Guardian and Mark Kimode on the BBC and stuff, you know, so we were like, people are going to be watching this. Um, and yeah, we got like but rather like you, the most money we ever made was from the MG, from the minimum guarantee. Well, look, I mean, it is what it is, right? And and when a company puts down money for an MG, you know, they're going to market it, right? And if it's online, it's going to be top of the algorithm in the right territory. >> If it's not, you know, if it's a cinema release or a TV release, the advertising is going to be intense because they got to make their money by it, you know. So, I think the MG is kind of a guarantee that the company's going to be serious about marketing of the film at the beginning. >> But yeah, if there's no MG, they're pretty much leaning on you to do the marketing. >> But I think uh the MG maybe depends on how much it is because for some big companies 2,000 is >> Yeah. Yeah. And and I don't know why some of them like just want to have the cataloges >> and like I don't know but I think because like if you go on Netflix they have a huge catalog and they will tell you oh you know you you can for $13 you can watch all these you know but then a lot of their back cataloges I not back but a lot of the films there because people say that Netflix is boring. they spend more time looking for what to watch than actually >> watching. So maybe these distributors also want to just have like oh we have all these films and also the other thing that somebody told me is because they own not they own but you give them a copy of the film the master. Okay. Not master, but cuz we don't do masters anymore in digital, but still >> they have a a print of your film, you know, in their archives. >> And so some of them, you know, they have like huge huge archives of African films with with them. And >> yeah, in future, I mean, that can be >> long-term bet as well that this content could have some value in the >> maybe. I mean, I would I would say it's questionable how much money they're really making off like lowbudget unpromoted films, right? Because >> unless it's someone like me who's like actively searching for Listers Fable, who's going to come across it? >> No, no, no. So, >> no, go ahead. I >> I mean, so there's another way to look at it, right? Uh all the filmmakers in Uganda, I have their catalog in my archive, right? and

Uh, this guy makes the biggest film, right? So, one of them becomes a really, really big star. And when they come to make a documentary about him, I'm the guy. That's when I collect. I think that's, uh, if you're paying 2K for a possibility that that could happen, and you're maximizing on the number of pieces you have in your catalog, I think for me, that's a good bet. And that's, yeah, I think that's what most of them are actually counting on.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Maybe there is a way they make money off it because there's seriously no person who will buy a very low-budget film knowing they're not going to. There's an advantage that it's like, it's like music, right? It's like in music, you put your music out there, and then Kanye West samples it, right? And it could be.

Yeah. But what's the probability of that? I mean, like, so for example, like you're saying, let's procure, like imagine where it's distributed. Let's procure a catalog. So, we're going to get all of these old Ugandan movies. We're going to pay each one of them 2,000.

I think I think Dilman got a good deal. They have so much they get for free. You know, they get without the minimum guarantee as well, right?

Yes. I mean, I guess, look, Felista's Fable, as we said earlier, was regarded as like an important Ugandan film at the time. So, that, I think there's that. But moving on, why did you then decide to set up your own website, and how is that more peer-to-peer, kind of closer networking going for you?

Yeah. Um, I think I got frustrated with, uh, the the system the way it works because, like, uh, I couldn't make any more documentary films. And of course, the Nepali ones, after a while, of course, the the revenue dries up. I think we stopped, they stopped sending checks like five, six years ago. But, um, with, uh, with with international, like around, I made my second feature, 2017.

Sorry, what was that?

It was called, uh, Herb Broken Shadow. Uh, it didn't, it didn't do as well as, uh, Felista's because maybe I made a mistake. I was looking more into getting into the festival run. Uh, because after the the experience with Felista's Fable, where I got a lot of feedback from programmers, from, you know, I remember going to Cannes, uh, not with the film, but to attend it, uh, Berlin 2014, Cannes 2015, and I just talked to a lot of people, and they watch like, you know, if you want to make it.

This is style.

Yeah, like, you know, there's something arthouse-ish.

Cuz at that time, that is what it was doing. So I go and do the Felista's, and I go and do Herb Broken Shadow with that in mind, like, you know, these programmers, these are the kind of things that do. But I didn't want to deviate too much from, um, uh, my thing, which is science fiction. And that. So it's a science fiction about this woman who is stuck in one room, and she doesn't know if she's a real person or she's a creation of herself or something like that. And, yeah, it's a kind of a sit and talk film.

Basically, um, at that time, there was also a lot of these walkie-talkies, you know, walk and talk, like the After Sunset, before that was much earlier, but a lot of these films where people are just talking, sitting and talking, and it was kind of like that. But I made it like a murder mystery, and then it turned like, no festival even would.

Will screen it. Not, not the ones I was targeting because I had contacts with some of the programmers. And they were like, "No, no." Like it wasn't outright no. It's not even like.

You know, like, for example, if you, if you submit to Berlin, the Berlinale, you can know how, how far your film went in the process by the time, according to the time you get the rejection. If it's before September, that means it's like, no.

So, like the closer it is to the test, the more then the more your chances.

Think about it.

Being filtered.

So, yeah, like I was getting it like very much in the very early.

It doesn't sound like it was a big budget film, so it wasn't a big risk for you.

Oh, it was actually a big risk. It, I spent more on it than I spent on Felista's Fable. I mean, yeah, though it was a one-person thing. I had to use a Red camera, which was of course a different thing. And then, um, uh, the lighting, I tried to go like, very cinematic lighting, only with candles. There's all those things which, you know, in in arthouse film, people will be like, "He shot it alone, candlelight." I mean, film festivals will go crazy for that. What would you do in retrospect? How would you remake that film as a short?

Yeah, because that's.

They make it. Actually, that's the question.

People who watched it, they kept telling me, "Oh, you could have just made a short film."

Yeah. But anyway, after my experience with Felista's Fable, Herb Broken Shadow, um, this is 2017. And, yeah, I was really frustrated. But then, uh, at that time, YouTube, what happened in Room 13 was doing really well on YouTube. I actually made a lot of money from What Happened in Room 13. This was before YouTube, uh, changed its algorithm and killed off a lot of things. But I, I kept getting also checks, and this was even way better than the.

Did it have advertising attached to it?

Yeah. So you had an ad, you had ad revenue switched on?

Yes.

Right from the start?

Right from the start, almost. Yeah. At that time, you know, YouTube, uh, it, Uganda was one of the countries it experimented on with the ad things. And when we were starting out, the the barriers were no. They still still there. You had to have 1,000 subscribers.

And 4,000, I think, minutes. But it was not as hard as it is now. Um, so because I think they've added other things, like you need to be putting out a film every three months or something like that, like you have to upload, make three uploads every 90 days. There's, there's some other things they've added which have screwed up the algorithm. But, yeah, at that time, it was doing the numbers, and I was getting quite good money from YouTube. Every month, I'll get between 300 and 400.

The the lowest was 300. It was not a. Like, I know people who are making 3,000 to 5,000 a month.

That's rare, man.

Yeah.

That's rare.

Yeah. But I mean, for those that are going viral.

Yeah, even at that time, to get from one short film to get $3, $400 a month is fantastic.

Yeah, that's what I was saying. Like.

That's like way more than you were earning off your NGO job.

So you made the right decision. You quit and you were like, "Yes, I've done it."

But this was like six, seven years later. So, um.

Takes a while.

So this was moving like between 20, I think it started making money in 2013, 2012, up to 2016, when, you know, getting that regular YouTube check. And then at that point, there was what they call the ad apocalypse. YouTube changed its algorithm, and so, uh, What Happened in Room 13 was demonetized because it had a sex scene, like three seconds. It's quite graphic.

It's not.

Yes, it is. It's graphic. I would like, I wouldn't show that to my kids, but it's good. No, I liked it. And you, you like sex scenes in African films?

Yeah.

It's good. It's a good sex scene. It's, it's quite convincing.

So, it got demonetized because of that. And there was this email I got, like, "You can blight that part." But I was like, "I don't know, it will kill the story."

I think it will kill the vibe.

Yeah.

Just put in the comment, "Blood for money."

And then.

It's brave. It's, it's brave, though, because.

I wasn't expecting it at all.

Yeah. So it's like, you're watching it, like the film is kind of a has a silent comedy vibe, like a Charlie Chaplin or a Buster Keaton sort of vibe to it. And then suddenly, there's this quite graphic sex scene, and I was like, "It actually really surprised me in a good way." I, yeah, hats off, man. It's a brave move. I, yeah. So I left it on. And the demon. But then at that time, I thought, "Oh."

Uh, there are many ways, other ways of making money online. I tried, actually. But then the thing with YouTube, like, you had to keep. If, if I was to keep up that momentum.

The beast.

Yeah. I had to make a film every week. And I was like, "No, I can't burn my life like this, you know?" I tried. I made like three or four skits. But it was hectic, like it was really hectic. And then I'm like, "No."

So then.

Then, um, around this same time, uh, there are all these other platforms that come up. There's Patreon. And somebody pushed it to me, I think. No, they probably wrote to me an email. I don't know. They were looking for filmmakers, but I remember getting an email from somewhere. Most likely was Patreon. They're like, "There's this new platform. It's like YouTube, but you can get paid upfront if your fans like your film." Then I was like, "Oh, okay." And then this is the time when I also began looking more at crowdfunding. I tried crowdfunding in 2013 for the Felista's, but it didn't work out. Only two people, uh, gave in. But then, um, I started looking more at Patreon, and then I was like, "Oh, it's actually a model." Yeah. And.

I mean, crowdfunding and Patreon are unusual models for, for Uganda. Like when we crowdfunded for Imperial Blue, we got like, I mean, I think no donations from Uganda.

Um.

And we got all of it came from Europe and and a few friends in the US.

Um, yeah, because like, majority, the last short film, my crowd wanted for only one Ugandan. She came to me and said, "I want to give you money. How can I give it? I don't have a credit card." And I was like, "Send me on mobile money." And she sent me 60,000.

So I'm like, "Oh, that's cool."

Yeah.

But, yeah, the vast majority of it comes from Europe. So.

Patreon. Yeah. I'm still on Patreon.

No, I mean, is it the same, same story? Like, most of it coming from Europe, or more people from Uganda?

Yeah. I think there were two or three Ugandans up to some point.

Yeah.

But they've dropped out.

What's the barrier? Why? Why is it? Because people are broke, or is it the credit card thing? Or.

Maybe a combination of those two, and also maybe because it's just not a culture here.

Right?

And, you know, a culture of crowdfunding things.

Yeah. Yeah. So, so go on, push back.

Weddings.

Yeah. I, I agree totally. Community. Yeah. And like, uh, funerals.

Yes. And funerals. I think I think the language.

Artists, you know, musicians do kind of offline crowdfunding all the time, right?

I think I think the language we use in film makes people think we are asking them to invest without them getting returns.

No, I think, uh, no, I think it's good you've mentioned the wedding thing, and because these are more, in a way, cultural. You know, somebody will be willing to give you money for your wedding, but not money for your business.

Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Because again.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Because we are looking at that kind of crowdfunding for film as a business. So if you, most if you, if you have the language to make it look like a, a project, like a community project, I think you can sell it. Because I've, I've seen people, uh, join, said these secondary school groups.

Just the guy joins today, just to tell us that they lost someone.

You.

Yeah. And, yeah, you know, there's the guy manages to to raise at least a million. You know, it happens. The culture, I think, is there. Just haven't figured out the language yet, because that's something I've also tried to think about.

So, it needs perhaps also a well, either working through WhatsApp, um, or like a really kind of specific language and framing. Maybe what will change the game is a platform that actually says, uh, "This is, you're raising money for weddings, film weddings," like, you know, or for art. So you're, you're, you're suggesting fraud, basically.

Not fraud. No, no, no, no. Let me put it this way.

Yeah. The way people go for wedding.

You approach it in that way.

Yes. And then there's the local platform like Patreon, and then people know that, "Oh, if you want to support your favorite musician, you can actually go to this platform and you give him the money." Because the truth is, when people sing on stage, you see people coming.

To give them money. That's what I mean.

It's a very generous culture. We just don't have the. Because also the thing is, uh, I think maybe starting a platform, you know, like GoFundMe, where people are going to just put money online, is not feasible. But you throw parties, you know.

Uh, you say.

Yeah, like fundraiser parties. Yeah. But you say, "Okay, I'm doing my project. Uh, this is how it's going to look like. This is why I'm doing it." And all that. And your language, uh, you know, you come today for the meeting, for the first meeting, they come for the meeting, give them samosas, popcorn, and then start collecting money. I, I think that stuff works. And and usually, it's a guilting mechanism, like, "Hey, make sure you commit to this, blah, blah, blah." That [ __ ] it works. I think it can work. But I think also it's going to, it's going to work very much on the individual levels, you know, because, uh, on how you.

To give you the money.

Because that still happens. I know most people who do premieres, it's mostly family members who come to you.

Like, there are two guys I'm mentoring. They did their thing last year. They got like 800,000. But, um.

Was it last year or earlier this? No, last year. We're in '26. But, yeah, I was like, "Woah, 800K, you'd make back your money." Because they had spent like 200 on the venue and maybe 100 on advertising, on WhatsApp. And I was like, "You've already made back like 600K." And I was even impressed. I was like, "Maybe I should borrow from them." But they're like, "Yeah, a lot of them are our relatives."

But, yeah, I think if, if you have something like that.

Yeah. But if the, the problem is that it's not sustainable since your relatives can only support you so much.

And also the amount of money you might need to make a film and to make it back will be way more than 800,000 because.

So the Kenyan, there's this Kenyan model that's emerged, which is basically selling the premier tickets in advance and using that to fund the film. Right.

That is crowdfunding. This.

Yeah, it's crowdfunding. Exactly. But the, I suppose the difference is, is it, it feels more localized because crowdfunding has this abstract quality to it, where like literally just selling an advanced ticket is a lot more concrete.

Mhm.

So, yeah, I mean, we included that in our crowdfunding campaign for Imperial Blue, but in the end, the crowdfunding campaign was a stepping stone towards the bigger funding, right? So the crowdfunding sort of generated interest in the film. So it worked as a promotional exercise. Then it also, once we had raised a little bit of money through the crowdfunding, we were then able to go to other investors and go, "Look, people are interested. People want to see this." Yeah, it immediately sparked interest in in our kind of audience.

So then people who were sympathetic and they were already in our network. I won't lie. We didn't go out to like, uh, professional film investors. We were going within our network of investors.

And, but they believed in it, and, you know, it didn't do so badly in the end. So it wasn't like we were, you know, asking them to bet on a miracle, you know. So, but what the reason I'm talking about the Kenyan model of like selling the tickets in advance is I think that that does work in this context because, yeah, it's like selling a ticket to anything in advance. It's difficult.

People don't like buying tickets even to see Chameleon in advance, right?

Yeah. They want it like, it's next month, and then you can plan for it.

Yeah. You, you buy on the night, don't you? You buy in the queue.

Yeah.

But I think it might take five years to make. Oh, no. But I, I would say you'd have to do it towards like when the project's not far from completion, perhaps. And I think also Kenyans are better at planning. Sorry. They are.

So they also have.

An organized culture in my experience.

They also have some platforms that are really kicking off for now. It's mostly.

Do you mean like Mad, was it called Mad Fans?

Oh, yeah. There's the one, is it Changa?

But, yeah, there's a bunch of them. I know what you mean. Yeah, they have some different interesting platforms and.

Which, you know, I've even tried to, I tried to get into one to do the crowdfunding.

But, yeah, the fees were horrible, and then it's mostly a Kenyan thing.

So we need something that's more specific for here. Yeah. But also what these Kenyan platforms are doing, because of Safaricom and all that, it's very easy for someone to.

Yeah. And, um, even South Africa, I know they, they have all these platforms for crowdfunding, but, you know, it's working very much in South Africa. So if we have a platform like that in Uganda.

And then, uh, it gains traction and people know, "Oh, this platform is for supporting artists."

Why don't we have a chat with MTN? No, it's very doable. Okay, so, um, we have to kind of wrap up a bit, guys, cuz I'm going to miss my plane otherwise.

Oh, are you traveling today?

I am traveling in a couple of hours. So, um, but what I really want to know is like, how, how is it working with your website, and how, like, is this a sort of sustainable long-term model?

I think it is because, uh, from Patreon, uh, what I discovered. Tell us how it works first. So first, uh, my website is, um, it's my website, but Dilman Stories.

There's Dil Stories, which is the company website. Then there's dilmandila.com, which is my personal website. Like I have many websites. Those are the two main ones.

But, uh, there's this thing called the Fediverse.

Yeah.

Uh, it's called, it's, it's a kind of social media, but.

Fediverse feed.

Yeah, like a federated universe.

But it's kind of like Twitter, Facebook, and all that. But the difference is, there's no corporation that owns the Fediverse. It's like an open-source networking. It's, it's actually a social networking thing, because Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, they have become social media in the sense that.

They become corporate media, in a way.

Yeah. But social media in the sense that you're, you know, media you're consuming it.

Yeah. True.

Like with very little interaction. And if you're to interact, if you're to make it, you know, you have to feed an algorithm, you know. And then, um, you have to keep, you know, like, okay, because I remember at some point, I used to like, every time I would watch, "How to beat the YouTube algorithm," "What to put on your tags," "What to put in your description." You know, you have to play this mind game with the algorithm so that you try to convince it to show your video to what.

And everyone else is doing that as well.

Yeah. And everybody else is doing the same thing. So it became very frustrating.

But with the federated universe, it's basically, uh, social networking. There's no algorithm to push stuff on you.

Um, there, you kind of sell yourself more than you sell your product. And so what happened, like my blog is also on the Fediverse. There's plugins you can put on your blog, and it becomes part of the, uh, that thing. Yeah. But, um, maybe what I can say is, when, when I share a, a blog post, like you create a network with people who like a certain kind of thing. And I like social sci-fi, I like fantasy, I like horror stuff. And there's a huge fandom, if you know, you know, the people who like these kind of things.

Um, so I'm also into VFX. So, uh, first, I quit all social media. Yeah. Uh, Facebook, I deleted. Twitter, I deleted. Instagram, I deleted. TikTok, I deleted. My company. This is like, you've done this many times. You've run away from school. You quit your NGO job. Now you've deleted all your social media. What is it with you and bridges? So, what have you got against bridges? Why do you burn them all the time?

Um, yeah. So, I've left it on YouTube because YouTube is still kind of okay.

And then, um, but all these other ones because, uh, because even with YouTube, it has never been one for interaction. It has always been for broadcasting yourself. Um, so why I did this is because I found, uh, this other Fediverse. You know, Mastodon is probably the more common name. So, and on Mastodon, I joined a server. The server is like, okay, it's like a Facebook, but, you know.

Okay, imagine.

It's like a community within Mastodon.

Yeah. Okay. But, okay, Facebook is a server.

Yes.

You get, but it's a server that, you know, everybody logs on and all that.

Oh, so Mastodon is a server within Feder?

No, no, no. Mastodon is like, it's like a language which servers use to communicate with each other. So on Mastodon, there are like thousands and thousands of servers.

Discord.

Oh, yeah. Like, but Discord is centralized. So.

So this is more distributed and more decentralized. Okay. So I joined a server which is called mograph.social, which is like for motion graphics people, people who do VFX. And I was surprised to find there, like people like, they they're big in the, you know, some of them work in some of these, uh, big budget films. You you get about, like, I'll see someone's bio and he's like, "Oh, I'm the one who did this in Spider-Man." You know, that shot that he's doing, this, that was me. I was like, "Hm." And I'm talking to this person. So that's the kind of thing that you get, you know, on the Fediverse. Um, so joining, of course, the right server, you can find those kinds of people in that network. But, um, it was, it's not more, it's not, it's really less about you selling your product, you know, it's more about you connecting to people.

Yeah. So I joined it in 2022, and after one year, that's when I began deleting these other social medias because I was like, "What am I doing this way?" You know?

Can you make, is this like you join like a really exclusive social club and you don't, you don't go to your local bar anymore?

Exactly. Something like that.

Well, it would be more like not going to those horrible bars in Kololo anymore.

Yeah. Where everyone's taking pictures of themselves. Yeah, I get it. It makes sense.

Okay. So, um, well, what I discover in the Fediverse, there's a lot of artists, and they, they are very anti-corporation, and also anti-capitalism.

It's like the old internet.

Yeah. It's the Fediverse very much the old internet. You know,

I don't know if people who are watching will be old enough to have had things on MySpace, but it was, it is like MySpace. It is easier to connect to people and to get, um.

And it's also not so crowded, I imagine.

Yeah. It is not so crowded because it is crowded in many ways, but it is also not so crowded, but it is not like, uh, Facebook where everybody is on it. So it's kind of a niche thing. But I think it's only in Africa where people don't know a lot about it. In Europe, it's big. And with what's happening now with, um, big telecom companies, telecom, big tech companies, you know, siding with, uh, with fascism, and so there's this big push to move away from corporate media, and so it's even getting bigger, uh, because people are like, "I, I can actually own my my followers."

Imagine you have a Facebook page with a thousand followers, and then you don't like Facebook, you want to go to TikTok, and then you carry people who follow you, you carry them to TikTok, and you continue posting in TikTok, and the people who are following you on Facebook, they still find you on TikTok. That's kind of the analog that the Fediverse is. And so a lot of people are realizing, "Oh, I can actually not own, but I can keep."

It's closer to a real community in some way.

Yeah. So what, um, what has happened, like I've made friends there, and, you know, I've made networks, and then people who show, who see my films, you know, when I put out a call, like, "Oh, I'm making the next film," the response is like, you know, it blows my mind. I'm like, "Why are people giving me money to make my next film?" You know.

And, you know, like on Patreon, there's a time, the one time when I really got, um, I freaked out. Like, somebody subscribed, it was the $50 subscription.

Like, I didn't know the person because this was because, like, the others who on the $50, I knew them. I was like, "This," and I know them. They.

They're my buddies.

Yeah.

But this was a stranger, and I look up their name, they, there's like, I'm like, "Why is, why are they giving me?" This was like 2023.

You think you've been putting yourself down like, "Why do people like what I do?" I guess they like what you do. Come on.

But, yeah, that was the, the thing. Yeah. It freaked me out. And then recently also, uh, the most recent crowdfund I did, people are giving me $100, $300, and they're strangers.

This is through the Fediverse, through your server on the Fediverse?

Yes.

Yeah. What is, Oh, is it mograph or? No.

Okay. Mograph.social is just one of the thousands of servers. So if, uh, you want to join.

Just look, Google Mastodon. Just curious as to like, what group you were kind of pushing through.

Like, there's no group to push through. Like the moment you're in the Fediverse, you just share. And, uh, why? Because, you know, I used to crowdfund like on Twitter, my Patreon on Twitter and Facebook. But because of algorithm, my posts will not go wide.

Yeah. Like, people would not see what I'm putting out there that, "Look, I've made this thing." But now the Fediverse, it's because, like, okay, there is Pipedream. It's like YouTube, and that's where now I put all my, my, my main films.

Is that embedded in your website?

Yeah, but Pipedream, yeah, like tv.dillstories.com, that's now my Pipedream server.

Right.

So, so I wanted to ask you about that Pipedream server in terms of, uh, expense.

It's $8 a month.

$8 a month. Okay.

Yeah. It's good quality. You know, I've been, cuz I've been watching your short films on.

Through your website. Um, let's have a quick chat about, um, Eve and about what that's leading into.

So, you've made this new short film called Little Red Eve.

I believe the trailer's public, but the short film is not public yet.

Is that you're going to put it out? What, what are you waiting for? So with Little Red Eve, it's like the last kind of attempt I did for the. Remember I told you I tried to move away from the from the international film kind of distribution models, but I keep, no, like, you don't just burn the bridge, all you keep trying. I mean, so it's the thing that we are trying to still look around, see if festivals will like it. And so far, not so good. It's about one year later. But I wondered if, um, I did it as kind of a proof of concept to myself, and also to people, potential buyers, that I can make a, a film with with like, very high budget visual effects, with very low money.

Yeah. Yeah.

If you get the.

And they are, it's good. The effects are awesome. Yeah. And you'll be surprised, like, one of the places where I got advice was on the Fediverse, because you remember I told you on mograph, there's all these people who are actually working in like Hollywood type kind of films, and I can always just message them and say, "Hey, I'm doing this, how can I do this?" Or I can send them a thing I've done and say, "Can you give me feedback on this effect? Is it working? Is it believable?" And then they look and say, "Oh, you should maybe, uh, try to work on the shadows." You know, like things which a normal person will watch and say, "Oh, you've done good." But the guy will watch and say, "You know, this shadow is not believable because, you know, look at, um, on what on, um, VFX."

It might come off as.

It's reddish, you know, it's supposed to be reddish. And so those are the kind of small tips that I I got.

So, um, create, I'm making another short proof of concept, uh, because now, because with Little Red Eve, it was for VFX interacting with human bodies.

Yeah.

So there was a butterfly landing on the skin.

And I wanted it to be as believable as possible, like it bites, and you see the blood, and all that. Uh, so I'm making another film, which again, I crowdfunded for through, um, uh, Mastodon, like the Fediverse, and this is a solarpunk film. It's in the future, so the environment has to be the future. So what I'm going to do next is build this, create buildings and vehicles, and, you know, like a futuristic film.

They create, you mean in real life?

On VFX, of course.

Are you using Blender? What are you using for your VFX?

I use Blender for VFX. And so after I do this other film, the solarpunk film, then I'll now do my next feature film.

About the solar.

Yeah. So it's kind of a combination.

What's the elevator pitch for that movie?

Uh, the pitch is basically the same with Little Red Eve. You know, it's about a woman in the near future who invents this technology that can make, uh, direct democracy a possibility.

But it gets rid of, uh, central governments. So we no longer have central governments, we no longer have politicians, we no longer have, um, ministers or anything, and people just run the country by themselves. So it's more like a decentralized country, and every village maybe is its own country within the village. So it's a bit of a concept.

Yeah. Yeah. That's that's actually, for me, extremely interesting.

It's, it's what was promised us years ago. Um, but so it's a sort of anarchist utopia, uh, like a afrofuturist film. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm in. I thought.

I thought that the symbol, the visual symbols in, uh, Little Red Eve were like, really cool. And like the, I mean, some of it's like quite on the nose, as we say, in terms of imagery, like the nodding disease, but it, but it's really effective. And it's both quite scary, quite funny as well, because they kind of look ridiculous, but then it's quite disturbing, you know. And funnily enough, there were scenes in there that reminded me a little bit of Get Out in that way, like the way that Get Out is on this border of like uncomfortable border of horror and comedy, where you're like, you don't know whether to laugh or shiver.

And it's good. And I, I thought Little Red Eve was excellent. I thought the VFX were really good. Um, I like the way that you've maintained your kind of some of the visual language from your earlier filmmaking, like quite long artistic shots at times. Uh, I didn't get bored though, you know, I was watching it, and the story rattles along, it moves along.

Um, but I, you know, what? Why not just put it out online? I mean, you've done the festival attempts. Just bang it out online, man. Get, get more attention. You know, someone will see it and give you some money.

Because it's going to spoil the future film.

Oh, it's got spoilers.

Yeah. I mean, because the short film is kind of a, it summarizes the plot of the feature film.

It's not. Usually people do that, by the way, where you sell the feature film is based on the short film, and it's actually easier to sell the feature film. When I, when I shot that short film, I shot a quarter or like almost half of the feature film.

There's like two storylines in the feature film. There's the storyline of the village that is, you know, creating this tech utopia, the solarpunk kind of thing. And then the other storyline is, of course, a bad dictator who is trying, who does not want to lose that power. I mean, and so they try to create, um, disaster for the village to spread.

Can I ask, like, um, so what, I mean, one one extraordinary thing about what you're doing is you've got these very, very ambitious ideas, and you're, you're not, but with very low budgets, but you've not gone down the kind of Wakaliwood route, which is to kind of, uh, sort of lean into the low-budget, um, I would almost call primitive aesthetic. And and my issue is not not so much with Isaac himself, the the founder of Wakaliwood, but there's there is an audience out there that watches Wakaliwood and is laughing kind of at it, you know, not with it. And that's sad. You know, when you watch some of these, like, uh, South Korean reaction videos laughing at Wakaliwood, or any of the reaction videos, I feel awkward. And, you know, when I talked to Isaac about this, he, he kind of felt like he wanted to like make films with bigger budgets. He wants to make proper well-made action films, but he leans into the kind of idea of low-budget action as a comedy device, right? But you're not doing that. You're doing something quite different, which is you're, and I think in in Little Red Eve, I saw this. I wish more people could see it. That's why I'm frustrated because the effects are really, really good. You know, these are genuinely, like, you know, I was like, so surprised. I was like, "How is he doing that?" You know, cuz I know that you've got a very low budget. And then, um, but there are other aspects of the film where I feel like maybe, you know, you would like to get into a bigger budget space, right? I mean, is this sort of part of your longer-term plan? I mean, you clearly don't want to just be making films on your pocket money for the rest of your life, right?

What would you, would you, is part of your plan to sort of basically create a bridge to a bigger funding world, bigger funding sector?

I don't know. I think the way the world is going, it's going to go more creator-driven.

Okay.

Because if you're going for bigger budgets, that means you're going for Hollywood, you're going for studio, you're going for that kind of, you know, world. But with what's happening with the US, I don't think that's a model that's going to last very long because, uh, there's this backlash against, uh, certain companies from the US. So I'm not, uh, things like Netflix are going to to. Okay, maybe let me not go there because I, I'm, I'm not very informed.

About bigger budget indie films?

Okay.

Yeah. This maybe what I'm trying to say is this, the the world is going to go go more to creators to support creators, you know, like the Patreon model or the crowdfunding model, where you have people directly giving you the money to to make the film. I know of a big name writer called Brandon Sanderson, like he's really huge. I think I've mispronounced his name, but he recently did a Kickstarter and he raised like 40 million. And he's one person who quit like the big publishers and said, "I'm going to be publishing my own books." He was already a big name. It's like the guy of Game of Thrones, Martin, deciding, "I'm no longer working with the publishers. I'm doing it my own." So that's what where the the creative industry is going. And as you know, the big tech guys and the corporates, they push towards AI, and, you know, there's a huge backlash against AI. So a lot of people are going to be looking for creators who are genuine, like who are human, and who can put on their, you know, made 100% with humans.

So what I'm looking at in my long term, I know I might probably, if, I mean, Netflix comes and says, "Here is money, make a film." I probably won't say no. Or if, you know, they.

I probably won't say no. But I don't think I'm aiming for that. I'm more aiming for this space where I have, um, enough people who are aware of my films, and who, when I say, "I'm making the next film, I need $10,000. Can you get it?" I can raise that money from, you know, just people.

Wouldn't you want to be in a space where your next film is like $200,000?

That might reach. I mean, I might get there from just the small, small crowdfundings, but I want to get there without, you know, like this huge budget in investments, because I think it is possible to get to the 200,000 from just, you know.

Um, more, more and more people just being aware of the of your films. Like I share my film, um, The Night Dancer. I actually kind of use The Night Dancer to fundraise for the next film I'm doing. I think I raised about 3,000, $3,500.

Um.

Yeah. I mean, if, if I, I'd really, really like Night Dancer. I mean, that.

I was, I was really excited after seeing the trailer, and it didn't disappoint. It is another zero-dialogue masterpiece from Dilman Dilla, and it's genuinely really creepy.

And it completely changes the original meaning of the Night Dancer myth, which I really liked.

And it also.

Wait, why did you say myth?

Well, mythology.

No, you're trying to scare me.

No, no. Okay, this is the thing about myths. You know, when we talk of the myth, we think of, "Oh, it's false." But there's myth in the sense of mythology, in the sense that because.

Because there is Christian myth, Christian mythology.

There is Islamic mythology. I mean, there's European mythology. So in our mythology, in the sense that there are things we believe in which are beyond.

It's in the, the tapestry of Uganda, you know, it's part, it's woven into the. I mean, it's such a universal, uh, myth or story in Uganda that, and also it comes true, right? So people either because they, the myth comes to inhabit them, or because they want to tap into some power that they think is associated with it, they start becoming night dancers. And if anyone in the audience has got no idea what a night dancer is, watch Dilman Dilla's short film. It is, it's freely available on your website, right?

So, we'll put the link under the YouTube. It is a very creepy, fantastic, and again, for me, mixing horror and comedy in a clever way.

I don't know why people keep saying there's comedy there.

Didn't you? I, I found bits of it, or I mean, not.

Some of it is funny, but I don't think funny in a way that it's a comedy, right?

No, no, it's not like a genre comedy film, but it's, uh.

It's, it's not, uh, nor is it a kind of like straight-faced terrifying horror film, in a classic way, but there's definitely humor in there. I think you can't get away from it. You can't get away from comedy. That being was right.

It's just the style, I think.

Some people tell me, yeah, they laugh. There's a part where they, they laugh, but some, some of that laughter is like, you know, the relief of the.

The person getting justice.

True.

Without spoiling the film, but at the end of the thing, there's some kind of justice.

Definitely. Yeah. It's a.

It's a morality fable. Yeah. I really enjoyed it. So, um, check out Dilman Dilla's, uh, website. Check out his short films that are available there. Follow him on, um, the multiverse. What? The Fediverse.

Fiverse. Uh, and, um, I'm really excited to see what happens when you have a bigger budget. Uh, I also think you should think about like, don't turn your back on the normal distribution models, because that when they work well, they can work really well. Uh, and I think like to complement what you were saying, I really like the idea of a kind of creator-driven, uh, financing, like, uh, future. I think that's a really beautiful vision. And and in some ways, your new films feed into that, because they're about kind of decentralized utopias. So that, like, hopefully this can all come true at the same time. But, um, but I think like at the moment, we, I would advise like doing both, you know, so try and get the distribution.

I think with the next feature film, I'm still going to try the festival thing. Um, but, you know, there's a thing of not putting your eggs in in one basket. But there's also the thing about reading the room and seeing where things are going. So, uh, what I'll do with the feature film, of course, I'm going to make the next short film, which I'll release again publicly, because it's not going to spoil the feature film.

I should have done that for Little Red Eve, but, you know. So with, uh, I'll make that film, and then I'll use it to fundraise for the feature film.

Um, and then I'll try the programmers, I'll try the festivals, and if it fails, there are other ways of trying to sell the film online without making the thing. And hopefully, like the people who contribute to it, because the problem also with sometimes in crowdfunding is you crowdfund for a film, and then it gets maybe to maybe Netflix or something like that, and then it is locked in, you know, and then the people who contributed to it cannot share a link and say, "Oh, I like this film."

Can you get, I wanted to actually mention about where I also think Netflix is probably going to fail in the future. Yeah. Is the fact that discovering content that is almost impossible, right? At some point, that catalog is going to be too big that they don't know how, you know, if you have your movie there, it's like a graveyard. Unless you're one of the best. It is already like that because, I don't know, people try to get into Netflix, but the truth is, most filmmakers I know in Europe and America, they think of Netflix as a last resort.

Well, it's, it's the end of the tale, isn't it? It's so, it's after you've done cinema, then you've done like, um, a window, an exclusive window with someone like Amazon Prime. It goes through these stages, and then one person, the phrase, then we'll bury it on Netflix. That's what they said. So, yeah, it's the graveyard. One of you said that a minute ago. I still, I still like it. I still, you know, and I think if you got managed to get your film on Netflix, it's still a huge source of pride. I mean, come on, think about Girl in a Yellow Jumper in Uganda. Everyone was like, "We got a film on Netflix." You know, but, but as you say, for an American producer, it's like, "Oh god, my film went straight to Netflix." Listen, um, I'm going to wrap up here. Um, last words, Kenneth.

No, I mean, I'm very, very happy that we've had this conversation. I think we align ideologically. I'm also very decentralized, utopian vision.

Bloody anarchist. Look, okay, when I've got my big distribution company, I'm not going to sign you rebels. Anyway, yeah, very, very nice to see you again after all these years. Um, I don't know why we lost contact, but let's, let's make sure we stay in touch.

Like the world this way, it just becomes so big when it is even very small.

Even like surreal. I don't know the last time I talked.

Yeah, he's around. But yeah, um, so I'm going to say again, watch Dilman Dilla's films on. And can you say the website to camera?

Oh, the website is, uh, tv.dillstories.com. dillstories.com.

You can find it here.

Yeah, find it. Find it in the comments section. Dilman Dilla, so nice to have you on The Real Africa.

Thank you. Nice to have you as well.

No, thank you. Thank you for making the time.

Yeah.