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Steve: THOSE INCARCERATED IN ONTARIO'S PRISONS ARE BY DEFINITION OUT OF SIGHT, AND SO FOR MANY, OUT OF MIND. BUT FROM LAST YEAR'S HUNGER STRIKES AND LABOUR DISRUPTIONS TO REVELATIONS ABOUT ADAM CAPAY, A PRISONER HELD FOR MORE THAN 1500 DAYS IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT, THERE IS MUCH THAT GOES ON BEHIND BARS FOR THE REST OF US TO KEEP AN EYE ON. JOINING US NOW TO DO JUST THAT: IN WINNIPEG, MANITOBA: GERALDINE MALONE, JOURNALISM FELLOW AT THE MUNK SCHOOL OF GLOBAL AFFAIRS. HERE IN STUDIO: CATHERINE LATIMER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, JOHN HOWARD SOCIETY OF CANADA; MONTE VIESELMEYER, CHAIR, CORRECTIONS DIVISION, OPSEU, THE ONTARIO PUBLIC SERVICE EMPLOYEES UNION; AND LEE CHAPELLE, PRESIDENT, CANADIAN PRISON CONSULTING. IT'S GOOD TO WELCOME YOU THREE HERE IN OUR STUDIO IN TORONTO. GERALDINE, NICE TO HAVE YOU ON THE LINE FROM WINNIPEG, MANITOBA, FOR THIS DISCUSSION. I WANT TO START, FIRST OF ALL, JUST BEFORE WE PUT THIS GRAPHIC UP WITH SOME INFORMATION. WE ARE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION THIS EVENING ON TVO BECAUSE IMMEDIATELY AFTER OUR CONVERSATION IS OVER, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A DOCUMENTARY IN WHICH LEE FIGURES PROMINENTLY, IT'S CALLED "HOW TO PREPARE FOR PRISON," AND IT IS A, IF I MAY SAY, A TERRIFIC DOCUMENTARY ABOUT A SUBJECT THAT I SUSPECT A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T THINK THAT MUCH ABOUT, SO WE'RE GOING TO HOPEFULLY ADD TO THE PUBLIC'S KNOWLEDGE ON THIS. SHELDON, LET'S BRING THESE GRAPHICS UP TO START US OFF. FROM THE OFFICE OF THE CORRECTIONAL INVESTIGATOR, THERE ARE 14,000-PLUS INMATES IN THIS COUNTRY, THE AVERAGE DAILY COUNT. THE AVERAGE ANNUAL COST OF INCARCERATING A MALE INMATE IS NORTH OF 100,000 AND FOR WOMEN IT'S ACTUALLY TWICE AS MUCH. THERE ARE ONE IN FOUR INMATES THAT ARE INDIGENOUS IN THIS COUNTRY. ABOUT A THIRD OF FEMALE INMATES ARE ALSO INDIGENOUS. ONE IN FOUR INMATES ARE OVER THE AGE OF 50. ONE IN FIVE ARE SERVING A LIFE SENTENCE. AND MORE THAN HALF OF ALL WOMEN INMATES HAVE AN IDENTIFIED MENTAL HEALTH NEED AS COMPARED TO ABOUT A QUARTER OF MALE INMATES. THAT'S THE STATE OF PLAY TODAY. LEE, GET US STARTED HERE. COMPARED TO, SAY, 20 YEARS AGO, IS IT BETTER OR WORSE TODAY?
Lee Chapelle: IT'S FAR WORSE.
Steve: FAR WORSE? HOW COME?
Lee Chapelle: THERE'S A CUMULATIVE EFFECT THAT WOULD GO BACK TO A TRANSITION -- IN ONTARIO WE'RE TALKING FEDERALLY OR PROVINCIAL?
Steve: YOU TELL ME. YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE IN BOTH.
Lee Chapelle: IN ONTARIO PROVINCIAL CORRECTIONS, THERE WAS A CONSIDERABLE CHANGEOVER IN THE LATE '90s, EARLY 2000, WHERE OUR GOVERNMENT OF THE DAY WAS LOOKING TO PRIVATIZE PROVINCIAL CORRECTIONS. WE BUILT SUPER JAILS, CLOSED MANY OF THE EXISTING STRUCTURES AT THAT TIME. ONE OF OUR JAILS, PROVINCIAL JAILS, PENETANGUISHENE, CENTRAL NORTH, WAS PRIVATIZED FOR A FIVE-YEAR CONTRACT. THERE WAS A LOT OF OPPOSITION TO THE PRIVATIZATION, AND I BELIEVE RIGHTLY SO, BUT IT WAS MODELLED AFTER THE AMERICAN '90s BOOM OF PRISON CONTROL AS AN INDUSTRY.
Steve: ALL MADE CONDITIONS WORSE.
Lee Chapelle: INFRASTRUCTURE. WE'VE MOVED FROM WHAT WAS AN EFFECTIVE REHABILITATIVE SYSTEM THAT HAD A VARIETY OF INSTITUTIONS THAT HAD WORK PROGRAMS, GUELPH HAD A BEEF FACTORY, BIRCH RAPIDS, THERE WAS ESSENTIALLY A MINIMUM SECURITY FOR PROVINCIAL SENTENCED INMATES. NOW EVERYBODY IS CENTRALIZED AND HOUSED IN PURELY CONTAINMENT-BASED INFRASTRUCTURE.
Steve: GERALDINE, LET ME BRING YOU IN. I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHAT FACTORS HAVE LED TO SUCH DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBERS OF ABORIGINAL WOMEN BEING IN JAIL.
Geraldine Malone: THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT SYSTEMIC REASONS THAT HAVE LED TO THAT. ONE OF THE MAIN ONES WE'VE SEEN IS A CHANGE IN OUR FEDERAL LAW IN HOW WE DEAL WITH PEOPLE WHEN THEY'RE BEING ACTUALLY SENTENCED. THE POWER HAS LEFT THE JUDGE'S HAND TO KIND OF USE HIS DISCRETION AS TO WHETHER SOMEBODY MAY SERVE A CONDITIONAL SENTENCE, SERVE IT IN THE COMMUNITY, STAY WITH THEIR FAMILY. NOW IT'S BECOME SOMETHING WHERE THEY'RE AUTOMATICALLY GOING INTO LONGER, HARSHER SENTENCES, AND THIS SPECIFICALLY DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTS WOMEN. A LOT OF TIMES PRIOR THE JUDGES WOULD KNOW THEY PLAYED A STRONGER ROLE IN THEIR FAMILY AND COMMUNITY AND WOULD THEN CHOOSE THE CONDITIONAL SENTENCING WHERE THEY COULD ACTUALLY GO OUT THE SENTENCE WITHIN THE COMMUNITY. SO THAT SPECIFICALLY IMPACTED INDIGENOUS WOMEN, AND IT'S ALSO OVER THE PAST 10 YEARS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF SHUTTING DOWN OF WOMEN'S SERVICES FOR DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, FOR HELP WITH THEIR FAMILIES, AND YOU'VE SEEN A LOT OF IMPACT FROM THAT IN THE WOMEN'S POPULATION FOR INCARCERATED INDIGENOUS WOMEN.
Steve: DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA AS WELL WHY IT WOULD BE TWICE AS EXPENSIVE TO INCARCERATE A WOMAN AS OPPOSED TO A MAN?
Geraldine Malone: THAT'S LARGELY ATTACHED TO THE FACT THERE ARE LESS WOMEN, BUT THEY ARE EXPECTED TO HAVE THE SAME RESOURCES AS THE MEN'S PRISON. IT JUST COSTS A LOT MORE IN THAT WAY, AND IT'S JUST THE POPULATION DIFFERENCES. USUALLY THAT'S WHAT THE CORRECTIONAL INVESTIGATOR AS WELL AS CORRECTIONS SERVICES CANADA SAYS FOR THAT NUMBER.
Steve: OKAY. MONTE, HELP US WITH THIS ONE. AGAIN, SAY LOOKING BACK OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF DECADES, THE ROLE OF A CORRECTIONS OFFICER, HAS THAT CHANGED OVER THAT PERIOD OF TIME?
Monte Vieselmeyer: ABSOLUTELY.
Steve: HOW SO?
Monte Vieselmeyer: FIRST I WANT TO SAY THE NUMBERS YOU REPORTED WERE SPECIFIC TO FEDERAL CORRECTIONS AND ACTUALLY DON'T REFLECT PROVINCIAL CORRECTION. IN THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO ON ANY GIVEN DAY, WE HAVE 8500 TO 9,000 INMATES IN OUR CUSTODY. BUT WHAT HAS CHANGED, AS LEE SAID, WE'VE BECOME -- WE SEE THESE NEW MEGA JAILS. WE'VE BECOME MORE ABOUT WAREHOUSING AS OPPOSED TO ABOUT REHABILITATION. WE HAD PROGRAMS AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE DAY DID CUT A LOT OF PROGRAMS BECAUSE BASICALLY A CHEAPER COST AND THAT'S HOW THEY SOLD IT TO THE PUBLIC. SO THAT MAKES IT MORE DIFFICULT FOR THE FRONT LINE WORKER WHERE NOW WE'RE NOT ABOUT REHABILITATION, WE'RE FOCUSING ON BASICALLY GET YOU TO COURT, MAKE SURE YOU'RE FED, MAKE SURE YOU'RE SAFE IF WE POSSIBLY CAN, AND WE'RE NOT FOCUSING ON BASICALLY HOW WE CAN IMPROVE THE SYSTEM. AGAIN, THERE'S BEEN CHANGES IN THE MENTAL HEALTH ACT, WE SAW IN THE '90s. NOW WE'VE BECOME THE LAST RESORT WHERE WE'RE DEALING WITH A HUGE INFLUX OF MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES AND ADDICTIONS ISSUES THAT WE NEVER DEALT WITH IN THE PAST. SO AS A FRONT LINE CORRECTIONAL OFFICER OR A FRONT LINE CORRECTIONAL WORKER, WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THESE ISSUES THAT WE HAD NEVER DEALT WITH IN THE PAST. THAT'S BEEN A VERY SIGNIFICANT CHANGE IN THE PAST.
Steve: IS THE LIFE OF A CORRECTIONAL OFFICER MORE DANGEROUS TODAY THAN IT WOULD HAVE BEEN 20 YEARS AGO?
Monte Vieselmeyer: YES, ABSOLUTELY IT IS.
Steve: FOR WHAT CAUSE?
Monte Vieselmeyer: WE'RE SEEING AN INCREASE IN ASSAULTS ON OUR STAFF. ALSO AN INCREASE IN INMATE-ON-INMATE VIOLENCE. WITH THE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, AND IT'S NOT ALWAYS BECAUSE OF THE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, A VARIETY OF ISSUES INCLUDING OVERCROWDING AND SO ON, THESE ISSUES -- WHEN YOU OPEN A DOOR, THOSE FRUSTRATIONS, THEY'RE DIRECTED AT THE FRONT LINE STAFF. THE FRONT LINE STAFF AREN'T PREPARED PROPERLY -- WE DON'T HAVE THE TRAINING THAT I THINK IS REQUIRED FOR US TO DEAL WITH SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT WE'RE SEEING ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS, BUT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE GOVERNMENT OF THE DAY AND WHAT THEIR OBJECTIVES ARE, AND THAT MAY NOT MEET THE OBJECTIVES THAT WE SEE IN THE JAILS AND THE CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES.
Steve: CATHERINE, LET ME GET YOU IN ON THIS ISSUE. WHEN INMATES THINK THAT THINGS ARE BAD IN PRISON, THAT THEY'VE CROSSED THE LINE -- I MEAN, PRISON IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A FUN PLACE ANYWAY -- BUT IF THEY THINK THEY'RE BEING MISTREATED OR NEED TO MAKE A COMPLAINT ABOUT SOMETHING, HOW FORTHCOMING ARE THEY IN THAT REGARD?
Catherine Latimer: ONE OF THE THINGS WE'VE NOTICED IN THE FEDERAL SYSTEM, THE GRIEVANCE MECHANISM, WHICH IS IMPORTANT FOR INMATES TO PUT FORWARD THEIR CONCERNS, IS EXTREMELY DYSFUNCTIONAL. IT TAKES A VERY LONG TIME FOR THESE GRIEVANCES TO BE ADDRESSED. THEY HAVE TO COMPLETE THE GRIEVANCE PROCESS BEFORE THEY CAN TAKE EXTERNAL LEGAL ACTION, SO IT REALLY CURBS THEIR ABILITY TO SEEK LEGAL REDRESS FOR OFTEN UNLAWFUL BEHAVIOUR OR OTHER PROBLEMS WITHIN THE PRISON SYSTEM. IN THE FEDERAL SYSTEM, THERE'S ALSO THE OPTION OF CONTACTING THE CORRECTIONAL INVESTIGATOR. MANY OF THE PRISONERS HESITATE TO DO THAT.
Steve: WHY?
Catherine Latimer: THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. I WAS JUST TALKING TO A BUNCH OF MEN IN SEGREGATION AND ASKED THEM IF THEY HAD RAISED CONCERNS WITH THE CORRECTIONAL INVESTIGATOR, AND ONE OF THEM ARGUED THAT IT WAS SORT OF LIKE TALKING TO CFC, WASN'T IT? AND THE OTHER ONES HAVE SOME LEVEL OF FRUSTRATION ABOUT THE EXTENT TO WHICH THE RECOMMENDATIONS MADE BY THE CORRECTIONAL INVESTIGATOR ACTUALLY GENERATE CHANGE, AND THEY WILL SAY, LOOK, HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY AUTHORITY. SO YOU WILL SEE PRISONERS WHO HAVE MADE COMPLAINTS THAT THEY'RE NOT GETTING ACCESS, FOR EXAMPLE, TO LEGAL MATERIALS. CORRECTIONAL INVESTIGATOR'S OFFICE WILL INVESTIGATE AND FIND, YES, THAT'S TRUE, YOU WERE NOT GETTING ACCESS TO THE TYPE OF LEGAL MATERIALS YOU SHOULD HAVE. WE WILL NOTIFY THE WARDEN. SO THEY NOTIFIED THE WARDEN AND THE PRISONER STILL DOESN'T GET ACCESS TO THE LEGAL MATERIAL SO THEY KIND OF SHRUG AND SAY WHAT WAS THE USE OF THAT?
Steve: BECAUSE OF ADAM CAPAY'S CAUSE, WE'VE HEARD A LOT ABOUT SEGREGATION MORE IN THE LAST MONTH THAN PROBABLY THE LAST FEW YEARS. SHELDON, LET'S PUT THIS UP. WE WANT TO SHARE THESE FIGURES. THE NUMBER OF OFFENDERS, THIS IS IN FEDERAL CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTIONS RIGHT NOW IN THE COUNTRY, 366 IN SEGREGATION. ALMOST A THIRD ARE ABORIGINAL. FIVE OF SEVEN WOMEN IN SEGREGATION ARE ABORIGINAL. HALF ARE CLASSIFIED AS MAXIMUM SECURITY. AGAIN, ALMOST A THIRD OF OFFENDERS IN SEGREGATION ARE LOCATED IN THE PRAIRIE REGION. AND SINCE 2013-14, THERE'S BEEN A 16% DROP IN THE NUMBER OF ADMISSIONS TO SEGREGATION. LET'S UNDERSTAND MORE ABOUT WHAT SEGREGATION IS. MONTE, WHAT IS IT USED FOR?
Monte Vieselmeyer: AGAIN, THOSE NUMBERS ARE FEDERALLY AND ADAM CAPAY IS IN OUR PROVINCIAL SYSTEM. IT'S USED FOR A NUMBER OF THINGS. DISCIPLINARY -- IF INMATES ARE FIGHTING OR IF THEY'RE ACTING OUT AND NOT FOLLOWING THE RULES OF THE INSTITUTION, POTENTIALLY SEGREGATION WOULD BE ONE OF THOSE THINGS TO CORRECT THAT BEHAVIOUR. BUT ALSO IT'S USED -- IN OUR SYSTEM NOW, FOR ADMINISTRATIVE REASONS. MAYBE AN OFFENDER YOU SEE ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE TORONTO SUN AND THE TORONTO STAR IS HIGH PROFILE AND MAYBE FOR THEIR SAFETY THEY NEED TO BE PUT INTO SEGREGATION SO THEY WON'T POTENTIALLY BECOME A VICTIM IN OUR SYSTEM.
Steve: I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY, LEE, IF SOMEBODY ENDS UP IN SEGREGATION BECAUSE THEY -- THE IDEA IS, WE NEED YOU TO IMPROVE YOUR BEHAVIOUR AND THEREFORE WE'RE PUNISHING YOU, GENERALLY SPEAKING, HOW OFTEN DOES THAT WORK?
Lee Chapelle: IT CAN BE EFFECTIVE, AND I CAN LOOK BACK 20, 30 YEARS AGO, SIMILARLY TO WHAT YOU BROACHED EARLIER, AND SAY IT WAS MORE EFFECTIVE -- ADMINISTRATIVE SEGREGATION DID NOT OCCUR AS OFTEN OR RARELY 20 OR 30 YEARS AGO, FOR WHAT I WOULD SAY FOR MOST PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT FAMILIAR, IT'S A JAIL WITHIN A JAIL. I WOULD NEVER ADVOCATE FOR THIS TO BE ABOLISHED. I BELIEVE IT'S AN IMPORTANT TOOL THAT IS REQUIRED FOR CONSEQUENCES, AND AGAIN, AS MONTE SAID, FOR FIGHTS OR CONTRABAND OR VARIOUS INFRACTIONS. THIS IS A VERY CLEAR CONSEQUENCE FOR INMATES. HOWEVER, WHERE WE'VE REALLY FALLEN INTO AN ISSUE HERE IS WITH THE ADMINISTRATIVE SEGREGATION, AND THIS CLASSIFICATION CAN APPLY FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS. SOMEBODY'S AFRAID, DOESN'T WANT TO BE IN THE MAINSTREAM POPULATION, SIGNS ON FOR THAT. OTHER ISSUES, COMPATIBILITY ISSUES, MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, SADLY, AGAIN, THE FORENSIC HOSPITALS WERE SHUT DOWN IN THE '90s, MONTE REFERRED TO THAT, A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE ARE VERY FRUSTRATED AND IN DECOMPENSATED STATES. THERE IS NOT ACCESS TO TREATMENT OR PROGRAMMING AVAILABLE. IN FEDERAL THERE IS MORE RESOURCES FOR THAT.
Steve: WHILE YOU'RE ON THAT, WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FEDERAL AND PROVINCIAL SEGREGATION?
Lee Chapelle: THERE'S A CONSIDERABLE DIFFERENCE. PROVINCIAL IS ALWAYS THE ENTRY POINT FOR ANY INMATE. ANYONE WHO ENDS UP IN FEDERAL BEGINS IN A PROVINCIAL SETTING. THAT'S WHERE PEOPLE ARE HELD WHILE GOING THROUGH TRIAL. IT'S ONLY FOR PEOPLE SERVING TWO YEARS LESS A DAY OR UNDER. FEDERAL SYSTEM IS A LONGER SENTENCE. IT'S A TRANSIENT NATURE IN THE PROVINCIAL SYSTEM, SO THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE COMING AND GOING. FEDERAL SYSTEM IS MORE STATIC AND MORE DEVELOPED. THERE'S MORE OF A VESTED INTEREST IN THE FEDERAL SYSTEM. IT ALLOWS IT TO WORK MORE EFFECTIVELY. AS A RESULT, THERE'S JOBS, THERE'S MOVEMENT, THERE'S A VARIETY OF THINGS, YOU CAN ACCESS HEALTH CARE WITHOUT A CORRECTIONAL OFFICER PRESENT.
Steve: CATHERINE, LET MOO HE TRY THIS WITH YOU. I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO DO A VAST GENERALIZATION HERE, BUT AT WHAT POINT WHEN YOU'RE IN SEGREGATION WOULD THE AVERAGE PRISONER START TO EXPERIENCE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES?
Catherine Latimer: I THINK IT VERY MUCH DEPENDS ON THE ATMOSPHERE SURROUNDING THE PERSON'S PLACEMENT IN SEGREGATION. WE NOTICE, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE FEDERAL SIDE, THERE IS DISCIPLINARY SEGREGATION AND THEN THERE'S DIFFERENT TYPES OF ADMINISTRATIVE SEGREGATION. LEE MENTIONED PEOPLE WHO ARE VOLUNTARILY IN SEGREGATION. THAT'S ONLY ABOUT 20% OF THOSE THAT ARE IN ADMINISTRATIVE SEGREGATION. THEY CAN DO A LITTLE BIT BETTER BECAUSE THE ATMOSPHERE AROUND THEIR CONFINEMENT TENDS TO BE FAIRLY SUPPORTIVE. BUT IF THERE'S AN ATMOSPHERE OF HARM, IT DOESN'T TAKE VERY LONG FOR PEOPLE TO HAVE SIGNIFICANT PSYCHOLOGICAL AND PSYCHIATRIC IMPLICATIONS FOR THAT. I CAN GIVE YOU EXAMPLES OF A YOUNG MAN WHO REALLY BECAME SUICIDAL WITHIN THE FIRST 5 DAYS OF HIS PLACEMENT, BUT HE CAME IN AND WAS SUBJECTED TO SOME VERY HARSH TREATMENT BECAUSE HE HAD SPIT ON A GUARD AND SO HIS TREATMENT REFLECTED THE EXTENT TO WHICH THE GUARDS WERE ANGRY WITH HIM FOR HIS ASSAULTIVE BEHAVIOUR.
Steve: WHAT CITY DID THIS HAPPEN IN?
Catherine Latimer: THIS HAPPENED IN KINGSTON, IT WAS IN ONE OF THE MAXIMUM FACILITIES.
Steve: IN KINGSTON. WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM?
Catherine Latimer: HE WAS -- FIRST OF ALL, HE DIDN'T GET ANY OF THE THINGS THAT HE'S ENTITLED TO HAVE, LIKE A MATTRESS AND SHEETS AND ALL THIS KIND OF STUFF, SO HE WAS ANGRY. SO HE BLOCKED HIS WINDOW, WHICH IS A VERY TYPICAL THING FOR MEN TO DO WHEN THEY FEEL THEY HAVE A LEGITIMATE GRIEVANCE. THEY CAME WITH FORCE AND THEY JUST SPRAYED PEPPER SPRAY INTO HIS CELL, QUITE A BIT OF PEPPER SPRAY, AND HE WAS HAVING DIFFICULTY BREATHING, AND PEPPER SPRAY WILL AFFECT YOUR BRONCHIAL CAPACITY. AND HE SAID, YOU KNOW, I NEED TO BE DECONTAMINATED, I CAN'T BREATHE. AND THEY SAID, TOO BAD, BASICALLY. AND SO HE BROKE THE WATER SYSTEM SO THAT THE SPRINKLER CAME DOWN AND JUST DOUSED HIM. AND HE BASICALLY WAS LEFT IN A TOTALLY WET CELL FOR ABOUT TWO OR THREE DAYS AND HE SAW HIS PAROLE OFFICER COME DOWN AND HE SAID, I'VE GOT A RAZOR BLADE. I'M GOING TO SLASH MYSELF IF I DON'T GET A SHOWER, IF I DON'T GET -- AND SHE SAID, GIVE ME THE RAZOR BLADE, AND HE DID, AND SUBSEQUENTLY HE SAID TO THE GUARDS -- HE HAD REACHED A LOW POINT AND HE WAS GOING TO COMMIT SUICIDE UNLESS, YOU KNOW, AND THEY SAID, WELL, GO AHEAD. THAT WOULD BE ONE LESS PERSON FOR US TO LOOK AFTER.
Steve: AND WHAT HAPPENED?
Catherine Latimer: HIS PAROLE OFFICER CAME DOWN AND SAID IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA IF YOU APOLOGIZED FOR HAVING SPIT AT THE GUARD AT HIS FIVE-DAY REVIEW. HE DID THAT. AND THEY RELEASED HIM FROM SEGREGATION. BUT HE HAD TAKEN A PRETTY SWIFT DECLINE BECAUSE OF THE CONDITIONS OF HIS CONFINEMENT.
Steve: GERALDINE, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS MORE OF LATE BECAUSE OF ADAM CAPAY'S CASE. COULD YOU TELL US WHO HE IS AND WHY HE ENDED UP IN SEGREGATION?
Geraldine Malone: WELL, ADAM CAPA, HE INITIALLY WAS IN FOR MINOR CHARGES. BUT WHILE BEING HELD IN THE THUNDER BAY CORRECTIONAL CENTRE, THERE WAS AN ALTERCATION AND HE WAS CHARGED WITH FIRST DEGREE MURDER, AND THAT'S HOW HE ACTUALLY ENDED UP GETTING TRANSFERRED OVER TO THE JAIL. IN THE JAIL, HE WAS PUT IN SEGREGATION, SO 23 HOURS A DAY, PLEXIGLAS CELL WITH LIGHT. IT WASN'T UNTIL REVIEW WENT THROUGH AND WE GOT A BIT OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT WHAT HE HAD BEEN GOING THROUGH. FOR OVER 1500 DAYS HE HAD BEEN IN ADMINISTRATIVE SEGREGATION, WHICH I THINK IS AN IMPORTANT PART TO DESCRIBE, IS THAT IT WASN'T -- HE WASN'T IN SEGREGATION FOR THE CHARGE OF FIRST DEGREE MURDER, HE WAS IN SEGREGATION -- AND WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE WHAT THE REASONING BEHIND IT WAS BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO GET A HOLD OF ALL THE PAPERWORK THAT ALLOWED HIM TO STAY IN FOR SO LONG. BUT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN EITHER FOR HIS SAFETY OR FOR THE INSTITUTION'S SAFETY OR TO CONDUCT AN INVESTIGATION, AND BEING THAT THE ALTERCATION HAD HAPPENED AT A DIFFERENT INSTITUTION, THE LAST ONE DOESN'T REALLY MAKE SENSE.
Steve: INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, HIS CASE HAS BECOME VERY PUBLIC AND VERY POLITICAL. INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH. EVEN THE CONSERVATIVES AT QUEEN'S PARK HAVE GONE TO BAT FOR THIS GUY SAYING THAT HIS TREATMENT HAS BEEN SUB-STANDARD. WHY HAS -- DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHY HE HAS BEEN TREATED THE WAY HE HAS?
Geraldine Malone: I DON'T THINK ANYONE KNOWS SPECIFICALLY IN THAT CASE. YOU'RE JUST SEEING ADMINISTRATIVE SEGREGATION IN BOTH THE PROVINCIAL AND FEDERAL CORRECTION KIND OF BECOME THE GO-TO MODEL FOR HAVING TO DEAL WITH PRISONERS. AND A LOT OF IT HAS BEEN MENTIONED BY OTHER PANELISTS TODAY WHERE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT WAREHOUSING, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A LACK OF MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES. AND WHEN ALL OF THESE THINGS GET COMBINED IN AN INSTITUTION, IT CAN BECOME REALLY DIFFICULT TO HANDLE. AND THE PROBLEM NOW IS WHAT'S RESULTING WITH ADMINISTRATIVE SEGREGATION, WE'RE GOING THERE FIRST INSTEAD OF IT BEING A LAST CASE SCENARIO. THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF ADAMS ACROSS THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW IN SEGREGATION AND LONG-TERM SEGREGATION. WHERE I'M AT IN MANITOBA, THEY ACTUALLY SAY THAT IT'S PROBABLY THE HIGHEST RATE OF SEGREGATION IN OUR PROVINCIAL PRISONS, AND IT'S FOLLOWED QUICKLY AFTER BY SASKATCHEWAN. IN THE PRAIRIES WE HAVE VERY BAD RATES OF SEGREGATION. AND IT'S JUST A SITUATION WHERE YOU ARE HAVING SO MANY PRISONERS THAT GUARDS ARE UNABLE TO DEAL WITH IT. AND THESE AREN'T JUST REGULAR -- YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK THAT EVERYONE COMMITTED THE CRIME, DO YOUR TIME. BUT A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE COMPLEX MENTAL HEALTH NEEDS, AND THOSE ARE ALSO FALLING ON OUR PROVINCIAL AND FEDERAL CORRECTIONS SYSTEM TO DEAL WITH ALL OF THESE THINGS.
Steve: LEE, LET'S DO A LITTLE BIO HERE. YOU'RE NOT HERE BECAUSE YOUR EXPERTISE WAS ACQUIRED IN SOME UNIVERSITY. YOU ARE HERE BECAUSE HOW MANY PRISON INSTITUTIONS HAVE YOU BEEN IN DURING THE COURSE OF YOUR LIFE?
Lee Chapelle: BOY, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION. NUMEROUS. MORE THAN -- I WOULD SAY SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBOURHOOD OF TEN OR FIFTEEN INSTITUTIONS COVERING A 25-YEAR SPAN.
Steve: YOU KNOW THE LAY OF THE LAND PRETTY WELL. HAVE YOU BEEN IN SEGREGATION?
Lee Chapelle: I HAVE.
Steve: WHAT'S THE LONGEST CHUNK OF TIME?
Lee Chapelle: THE LONGEST WAS THREE OR FOUR MONTHS STRAIGHT. CUMULATIVELY THROUGHOUT MY LIFE I SPENT APPROXIMATELY TWO YEARS IN SOLITARY.
Steve: WHAT DID THAT DO TO YOU?
Lee Chapelle: IT HAS PROFOUND EFFECTS. I WAS YOUNG THROUGH A LOT OF THIS. I WAS FULL OF VINEGAR. I WAS DETERMINED NOT TO ALLOW THAT TO THROW ME OFF. I WOULD PACE. I WOULD DO A LOT OF PUSHUPS. I WOULD DO ALL I COULD TO TRY TO MAINTAIN AND UNDERSTAND THAT THIS WOULD COME TO AN END, THAT THERE WOULD BE A DAY WHEN THIS WOULD END. AND I CONSTANTLY BATTLED WITH MYSELF. BUT I WOULD ALSO FIND MYSELF ROCKING IN MY BED AND TRYING TO FIND A WAY OF HAVING SOME SORT OF COMFORT DERIVED FROM TOUCH OR -- AND I WOULD SAY THAT YOU JUST GO THROUGH PHASES WHERE YOU BECOME DAY, NIGHT, IT DOESN'T MATTER --
Steve: WHEN YOU FOUND YOURSELF IN SEGREGATION, DID YOU FEEL AT THE TIME, YEAH, I KIND OF DESERVE TO BE HERE?
Lee Chapelle: NO -- WELL, THERE WAS -- LET ME QUALIFY THAT. THERE WERE OCCASIONS WHERE, YES, I DID BELIEVE THAT, AND THERE WERE CERTAINLY OCCASIONS WHERE, NO, I DID NOT. THERE WAS A TIME IN 1990 IN MILLHAVEN NATIONAL SECURITY WHERE I WAS FOUND TO HAVE A STILL IN MY CELL FOR MAKING MOONSHINE. MILLHAVEN WAS CHANGING FROM A PREDOMINANTLY MAINSTREAM POPULATION INSTITUTION TO A RECEPTION CENTRE, AND MY CELL WAS TAKEN AWAY AND THERE WAS NOWHERE TO RETURN TO. SO I SPENT THE DURATION OF MY SENTENCE, THE LAST THREE OR FOUR MONTHS, IN SOLITARY, AND WAS RELEASED DIRECTLY TO THE STREET. WHAT I CAN SAY IS THE DAY I CAME OUT, I WAS ABSOLUTELY DIZZY AND MY SENSORY OVERLOAD OF -- I WAS ANXIOUS ON THE TRAIN, I WAS TERRIFIED, AND I RAN AWAY, AND THAT LED TO MORE CRIMES AND NOT ADHERING TO MY PAROLE. I CAN JUST SAY IT'S A RECIPE THAT WOULD NOT BE SUCCESS AND IT'S NOT ONE THAT WE WOULD LOOK AT AS BEING FOR PUBLIC SAFETY.
Steve: I'M NOT ASKING YOU TO INVADE YOUR PRIVACY, AND FORGIVE ME IF I HAVE, BUT I THINK WE WANT, BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE, TO HAVE SOME BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF ADAM CAPAY'S SITUATION. I MEAN, HE'S BEEN SEGREGATION FOR MONTHS NOW. WHAT'S THAT DOING TO HIM?
Lee Chapelle: FOR 1500 DAYS -- I CAN ONLY IMAGINE THIS HAS TAKEN A REAL TOLL. WHAT I CAN SAY ABOUT ADAM CAPAY, THIS POINTS TO A LARGER ISSUE THAN CORRECTIONS. TYPICALLY, IN THE FEDERAL SYSTEM WHERE THERE'S AN ALLEGED MURDER OF AN INMATE, INMATE TO INMATE, THE PROTOCOL IS TO KEEP THE PERSON WHO IS CHARGED WITH THAT OFFENCE IN SOLITARY TO RIDE OUT THE TRIAL. AND THIS IS VERY COMMON IN CANADA. NOW, FOR THIS TO HAVE TAKEN FOUR YEARS, I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT. I THINK THAT'S A LITTLE BIT OF A WEIGH-IN ON WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM, WHY IT WOULD TAKE THAT LONG TO OCCUR. I UNDERSTAND FROM A PRISON ADMINISTRATOR'S PERSPECTIVE, IF THIS PERSON IS CHARGED WITH MURDERING ANOTHER INMATE, THERE IS A CONCERN FOR SAFETY OF OTHERS AND HE DOESN'T PLAY WELL WITH OTHERS. FOR IT TO HAVE BEEN FOUR YEARS, THIS IS JUST A TRAVESTY.
Steve: IN WHICH CASE, OKAY, MONTE, HELP US WITH THIS PART OF IT. THE ONTARIO GOVERNMENT HAS RECENTLY APPOINTED HOWARD SAPERS, THE FEDERAL PRISONS WATCHDOG, TO BE THEIR SORT OF CHIEF INDEPENDENT ADVISOR ON CORRECTIONS POLICY. WHAT DO YOU THINK HIS TOP PRIORITY OUGHT TO BE?
Monte Vieselmeyer: HIS TOP PRIORITY?
Steve: YEAH.
Monte Vieselmeyer: HE'S GOING TO BE BRINGING EXPERIENCE FROM THE FEDERAL SYSTEM, SO HE'LL HAVE TO LEARN OUR PROVINCIAL SYSTEM, AND THERE'S DIFFERENT CHALLENGES. I THINK HIS ROLE PROBABLY WILL TURN INTO A MORE PERMANENT ROLE BECAUSE I DON'T SEE HIM LEAVING A FULL-TIME JOB COMING TO ONTARIO FOR SHORT TERM. OUR OMBUDSMAN REGULARLY DEALS WITH ABOUT 4,000 COMPLAINTS EVERY YEAR, SO I COULD SEE HIM TAKING THAT ON. AGAIN, THE ONTARIO GOVERNMENT'S TASKED HIM WITH OVERSEEING THE SEGREGATION ISSUES WITHIN THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO, SO THAT WILL BE HIS INITIAL ROLE. THERE'S A BUNCH OF OTHER CHALLENGES. I WOULD SAY THE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH AND HOW THEY'RE BROUGHT INTO OUR SYSTEM AND ALSO WITHIN SEGREGATION IS A HUGE THING. IF WE CAN BATTLE THAT ISSUE, THAT WOULD PROBABLY SERVE US WELL AND IMPROVE A LOT OF THE CONDITIONS THAT WE DEAL WITH. SO I WOULD DIRECT HIM MORE IN THAT WAY THAN SPECIFICALLY JUST FOCUSING ON SEGREGATION.
Steve: CATHERINE, WHAT DO YOU THINK HIS TOP PRIORITY SHOULD BE AS HE INVESTIGATES THE ONTARIO SITUATION?
Catherine Latimer: I THINK HE NEEDS TO DEAL WITH THE ADMINISTRATIVE SEGREGATION ISSUES. THERE ARE NUMEROUS PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING DETAINED LONG TERM IN SEGREGATION CELLS IN PROVINCIAL INSTITUTIONS AND THEY'RE OFTEN TRANSFERRED IMMEDIATELY INTO SEGREGATION CELLS IN THE FEDERAL SYSTEM WITH THE CLOCK REBEGINNING SO THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT AWARE OF THE TOTAL LENGTH OF TIME THAT PEOPLE HAVE SPENT IN ADMINISTRATIVE SEGREGATION. BUT I KNOW IN THE OTTAWA CARLETON DETENTION CENTRE, ONE OF THE PRISONERS I DEAL WITH, NOW IN THE FEDERAL SYSTEM, WAS IN ADMINISTRATIVE SEGREGATION FOR 4 YEARS AS WELL, AND HE WAS A SELF-HARMER, WHICH IS ANOTHER -- JOHN HOWARD BELIEVES THAT THOSE WITH SERIOUS MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES AND A TENDENCY TO SELF-HARM SHOULDN'T BE PLACED IN ADMINISTRATIVE SEGREGATION, BUT THIS GENTLEMAN WAS PLACED IN ADMINISTRATIVE SEGREGATION IN THE FEDERAL SYSTEM, AND WITHIN HOURS, HE WAS BANGING HIS HEAD AGAINST THE WALL UNTIL HE FELL UNCONSCIOUS AND THEY HAD TO TAKE HIM TO THE HOSPITAL WITH SERIOUS HEAD INJURIES. SO IT'S A VERY SERIOUS PROBLEM IN THE PROVINCIAL INSTITUTIONS.
Steve: MONTE, WOULD YOUR CORRECTIONS OFFICERS, WHOM YOU REPRESENT, WOULD THEY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PUTTING LIMITS ON SEGREGATION?
Monte Vieselmeyer: AGAIN, THE GOVERNMENT CAME OUT WITH AN ANNOUNCEMENT -- I THINK WE'RE SEEING THIS TREND NOT ONLY ACROSS THE WORLD BUT TIEING IN THE U.N. MODEL OF 15 DAYS. WHAT THE PROVINCE ANNOUNCED WAS 15 DAYS IN REGARDS TO DISCIPLINARY SEGREGATION. RIGHT NOW IN THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO, IT WAS REPORTED BY A REPORTER, THAT'S ONLY ABOUT 8.6% OF OUR ADMISSIONS TO SEGREGATION. SO YOU HAVE ANOTHER 90-SOME PERCENT THAT AREN'T BEING ADDRESSED WHICH IS THE ADMINISTRATIVE ASPECT. AGAIN, PUTTING 15 DAYS DOESN'T REALLY SOLVE A PROBLEM. IT JUST SEEMS TO BE A POLITICAL FOOTBALL TO PUNT AROUND RIGHT NOW.
Steve: I WANT TO -- SHELDON, SHALL WE BRING THESE PICTURES UP NOW? LET'S DO THIS. WE'RE GOING TO GET INTO SOME, IN OUR REMAINING MOMENTS, ABOUT WHAT PRISON IS ACTUALLY FOR. WE'RE SHOWING YOU PICTURES OF A HIGH SECURITY PRISON IN NORWAY. LET'S JUST FLIP THESE OVER. I THINK WE HAVE A FEW OF THEM HERE. THIS IS DESCRIBED AS THE WORLD'S MOST HUMANE PRISON, AND THIS IS A HIGH SECURITY PRISON. THIS IS NOT FOR PEOPLE WHO STOLE A LOAF OF BREAD FROM A CORNER STORE. THIS IS FOR TOUGH CRIMINALS. AND IT LOOKS, AS YOU CAN SEE, VERY HUMANE AND ACTUALLY QUITE NICE. THE QUESTION IS, GERALDINE, LET'S START WITH YOU ON THIS: IS THIS SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD BE DOING HERE IN CANADA?
Geraldine Malone: YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT YOUR PRIORITIES ARE. UP UNTIL ABOUT 10 YEARS AGO IN CANADA'S FEDERAL CORRECTIONS, IT WAS REALLY ABOUT REHABILITATION. SO IT WAS RECOGNIZING THAT A LOT OF INMATES WOULD BE COMING BACK OUT INTO SOCIETY AFTER. THAT IS THE GOAL OF CORRECTIONS. AND NOW IT'S REALLY GOTTEN TO A POINT OF RETRIBUTION. AND I THINK THAT THAT'S A CONCERN. AND YOU'RE SEEING THE DIFFERENCE FROM THE PRISON STANDPOINT WHERE, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE REDUCED ACCESS TO PRISON FORMS, WE HAVE REDUCED ACCESS TO SERVICES AND INMATES ARE ACTING OUT. A WOMAN I SPOKE WITH RECENTLY, SHE TOLD ME SHE SPENT A LOT OF HER STAY IN SEGREGATION IN BRITISH COLUMBIA WHEN SHE WAS THERE IN THE FEDERAL SYSTEM, AND SHE SAID THAT ONE OF THE REASONS WAS SHE KNEW SHE WAS GOING TO END UP IN SEG SO SHE WOULD ACT OUT, SHE WOULD TRASH HER ROOM, SHE WOULD DO THOSE THINGS. SO SHE WOULD END UP WITH A 40-DAY STAY IN SEG, 20-DAY STAY. DO WE WANT TO REDUCE RECIDIVISM? DO WE WANT TO BRING PEOPLE OUT OF PRISON AND HAVE THEM BECOMING ACTIVE MEMBERS IN OUR SOCIETY, OR DO WE JUST WANT TO CONTINUE THIS CYCLE OF INCARCERATION.
Steve: LEE, LET ME GET YOUR VIEW. I THINK IT'S CLEAR WHEN STEPHEN HARPER'S GOVERNMENT WAS IN POWER, IT WAS ABOUT VICTIMS' RIGHTS AND PUNISHING CRIMINALS. THE INITIAL SUGGESTIONS OUT OF JUSTIN TRUDEAU'S GOVERNMENT ARE, WE WANT A FACT-BASED APPROACH, YOU KNOW, IF PUNISHING AND, YOU KNOW, IF PUNISHING OUGHT TO BE THE PRIME GOAL OF PRISONS, LET THE FACTS SHOW IT. IF IT ISN'T AND REHABILITATION IS WHERE IT'S AT, WELL, LET'S FOLLOW THAT PATH. WHICH DO YOU BELIEVE IS THE WAY TO GO?
Lee Chapelle: I AGREE. WE CAN GO THROUGH DIFFERENT WAYS. DO WE WANT PEOPLE TO SIMPLY SUFFER FOR WHATEVER BROUGHT THEM TO INCARCERATION, OR DO WE WANT TO WORK TOWARDS REFORMING BEHAVIOUR?
Steve: CAN PRISONS REFORM BEHAVIOUR?
Lee Chapelle: WE NEED TO, I BELIEVE FOR ONE, TO ALL THESE THINGS ACCUMULATIVELY, THROUGH THE TEN YEARS OF THE TOUGH-ON-CRIME REGIME, INFRASTRUCTURE CHANGES IN ONTARIO, FEDERALLY, PROVINCIALLY, I'D SAY AT THIS POINT FRONT LINERS ARE HARD-PRESSED TO HAVE ANY BELIEF IN REHABILITATION. IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR ANY GOVERNMENT OF THE DAY NOW TO -- BUT ULTIMATELY, YES. IT'S A HUGE INVESTMENT FINANCIALLY, AND I THINK CANADIANS TYPICALLY HAVE A LOT OF COMPASSION AND UNDERSTANDING. I THINK THIS IS A NON-TRANSPARENT SOCIAL ENTITY THAT'S COME TO A POINT WHERE THE CULTURE IS JUST REALLY PERVASIVELY ENTRENCHED WITH DEHUMANIZATION AND INTIMIDATION WITH OUR INMATES, AND WE'VE LOST SIGHT OF THE ABILITY TO AND THE BELIEF OF REHABILITATION. I FEEL WE NEED TO RALLY THE TROOPS. LIKE, MONTE, FOR EXAMPLE, WITH HIS GROUP. THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF DIVISIONS LONG TERM, A LOT OF WORK-TO-RULE, A LOT OF DISSATISFACTION WITH THE EMPLOYER. THE SAME IS TRUE OF THE FEDERAL FRONT LINERS. AND I THINK IT'S TIME IF WE CAN RALLY THE TROOPS AND SAY, YES, YOU DO PLAY AN IMPORTANT ROLE IN PUBLIC SAFETY AND, YES, THIS IS AN IMPORTANT THING, AND LET'S MOVE TOWARDS REHABILITATION, LET'S REFORM BEHAVIOUR. WE CAN CHANGE HARD WIRING. I SERVED 25 YEARS. IF I CAN, ANYBODY CAN. I'M 49.
Steve: YOU SPENT MORE THAN HALF YOUR LIFE IN JAIL?
Lee Chapelle: I DID. I WAS A CROSSOVER KID. I STARTED IN THE FOSTER SYSTEM. I WAS A THROWAWAY, ADOPTED THROWAWAY, ALL THAT STUFF. SO IT WAS A CROSSOVER FROM FOSTER CARE TO CRIMINALIZATION AND ALL THAT STUFF AND ULTIMATELY ALL I KNOW IS IF I'VE BEEN ABLE TO TURN THE CORNER AND THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF GOOD PEOPLE WHO PLAYED A ROLE IN THAT. PEOPLE WHO WORKED WITHIN OUR PRISONS. HELP THAT I RECEIVED IN THE '80s AND '90s WHEN WE WERE RUNNING WITH REHABILITATION AND CAUSALITY BEING THE ROOT FORM. SO WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT JUST, YOU KNOW, THIS IDEOLOGY THAT WE CAN BEAT THIS OUT OF PEOPLE AND BREAK PEOPLE IS NOT GOING TO WORK.
Steve: LET ME ASK CATHERINE ABOUT THAT. OBVIOUSLY I KNOW THE JOHN HOWARD SOCIETY, WE KNOW WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM ON THIS ISSUE, BUT THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF CANADIANS WHO DON'T BELIEVE THAT CRIMINALS CAN BE REHABILITATED AND THAT JAIL OUGHT TO BE ABOUT PUNISHMENT AND VENGEANCE. WHY ARE THEY WRONG?
Catherine Latimer: WELL, PRISON IS -- PEOPLE ARE SENT THERE AS PUNISHMENT, NOT FOR PUNISHMENT. SO THEY'RE EXPERIENCING A DENIAL OF LIBERTIES, WHICH IS THE RESPONSE TO THE CRIMINAL BEHAVIOUR. WE THEN HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO WORK WITH THEM AND GIVE THEM THE SKILL-SET SO THEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE CHOICES ONCE THEY'RE RELEASED FROM PRISON. MOST OF THEM ARE COMING OUT. AND IF WE CONTINUE TO BE HARSH AND CREATE AN ATMOSPHERE THAT THE TOUGH GUY IS GOING TO WIN, WE'RE NOT GOING TO CREATE A VALUE STRUCTURE OR WILLINGNESS OR ATMOSPHERE WHERE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO WANT TO MAKE THE SAME CHOICES THAT LEE MADE ABOUT REFORMING THEIR BEHAVIOUR. WE BELIEVE ALL ARE CAPABLE GIVEN AN OPPORTUNITY OF CHANGING THEIR BEHAVIOUR, AND IT'S IN THE COMMUNITY --
Steve: ALL ARE CAPABLE? ALL ARE CAPABLE?
Catherine Latimer: WELL, YES, GIVEN TIME AND AGING AND ALL KINDS OF THINGS, YES, YES. YES.
Steve: PAUL BERNARDO?
Catherine Latimer: WELL, PAUL BERNARDO, I GUARANTEE YOU, HAS CHANGED SINCE HIS ORIGINAL SENTENCE, BUT WHETHER OR NOT HE WOULD BE SAFE IN THE COMMUNITY IS A DIFFERENT ISSUE. BUT ALL OF THEM HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE A CONTRIBUTION, WHETHER THAT CONTRIBUTION IS BEING MADE FROM BEHIND BARS OR WHETHER IT'S BEING MADE IN THE COMMUNITY, DEPENDING ON THE AMOUNT OF PUBLIC SAFETY ISSUES THAT ARE AT STAKE, THE MORE WE SHOULD BE TRYING, NOT TO WAREHOUSE THESE PEOPLE BUT TO USE IT AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO GET THE BEST OUT OF PEOPLE.
Lee Chapelle: THE MAJORITY, I WOULD SAY, STEVE, AND I DO RESPECT CATHERINE'S POSITION AT ALL, BUT I WOULD VENTURE THE VAST MAJORITY HAVE THE POTENTIAL. I WOULDN'T SAY ALL.
Steve: MONTE, IN OUR LAST MINUTE HERE, LET'S GO TO THE FLIP SIDE. THE TWO WORDS THAT SUM UP CORRECTIONS POLICY ARE SENTENCES END. RIGHT? FOR 99 PERCENT OF CANADIANS WHO GO BEHIND BARS, SENTENCES END. SO WHAT KIND OF PERSON DO WE WANT COMING OUT AFTER IT'S ALL SAID AND DONE?
Monte Vieselmeyer: I ABSOLUTELY AGREE. I IS A I THAT QUITE OFTEN TO THE MEDIA, THE 99 PERCENT, THEY'RE GOING TO BECOME YOUR NEIGHBOURS, YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS AND SO ON, AND WE WANT THEM TO COME BACK INTO OUR COMMUNITIES AND I THINK OUR FRONT LINE STAFF, IF THEY CAN HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO BE A PART OF THAT, AND SHOW THEM THAT THERE'S A WAY TO DO THAT, BUT WE NEED RESOURCES. IT'S ONE THING TO SAY, WELL, WE'RE GOING TO CHANGE THE LAWS AND WE'RE GOING TO CHANGE CERTAIN ASPECTS. BUT YOU NEED TO PUT RESOURCES. YOU NEED TO PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS, BASICALLY.
Steve: WHO NEEDS TO DO THAT?
Monte Vieselmeyer: THE GOVERNMENT, BASICALLY. YOU CAN SAY ALL KINDS OF THINGS AND MAKE IT SOUND GOOD WHETHER AT QUEEN'S PARK OR IF YOU'RE AT PARLIAMENT HILL IN OTTAWA, BUT IF YOU'RE NOT WILLING TO PUT BASICALLY THE RESOURCES BEHIND WHERE YOU WANT THINGS TO GO, THINGS AREN'T GOING TO GO. YOU CAN'T SAY, WELL, WE WANT YOU TO DO MORE WITH LESS. IT JUST DOESN'T WORK WITHIN A PRISON SYSTEM. IT'S A PEOPLE-ORIENTED BUSINESS. THAT'S WHAT IT IS.
Steve: GOTCHA. I WANT TO THANK EVERYBODY FOR COMING ON THIS PROGRAM AND NOT ONLY HAVING THIS DISCUSSION BUT HELPING TO SET UP WHAT WILL HAPPEN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THIS PROGRAM, "HOW TO PREPARE FOR PRISON," THE DOCUMENTARY IN WHICH LEE PLAYS SUCH A PROMINENT ROLE. GERALDINE MALONE, THANKS FOR BEING THERE WITH US IN WINNIPEG. LEE CHAPELLE, FOUNDER OF CANADIAN PRISON CONSULTING, CATHERINE LATIMER EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE JOHN HOWARD SOCIETY OF CANADA, MONTE VIESELMEYER CHAIR OF THE DIVISION OF O.P.S.E.U. THANKS SO MUCH, EVERYBODY.
All: THANK YOU