Transcription
So I recently put a post up and challenged people to come and debate me live in person. And there was one guy called Adam Lawrence who filled out the form. He said that I prey on vulnerable people, I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm immoral and I'm unethical, and he disagrees with how I run my training company. You said that you think that I'm a net negative or leave a bad impression on the property industry.
"Someone's going to run to the back of the room, the price is only this for today." So where does the line exist? Which then leads to, is it like a cult? He made a post on social media and said, "Yes, I filled in the form. No, it won't be happening because there's zero chance of picking someone who could utterly take him apart. Stick with the softies and actors." Samuel, leads this guy's Adam Lawrence. Someone using those techniques must be a bad person. I mean, that's incredibly clever marketing, but you can't be chainsawing people's doors. How many people who pay for one of your courses pay on a credit card? I don't know that the positives of that for you outweigh the negatives for the industry. At the level that you're at, at the level of influence that you're at, it comes with a level of responsibility. This will be put in full. There'll be no edits, there'll be no cuts, a full live and raw debate.
So we're here for a debate, a discussion to thrash out, um, to thrash out three things. Number one was the engineered stunts and marketing of how my business. Number two was, um, preying on vulnerable people, which is something that you said that you believe that I do, which I disagree with. So we can, we can thrash it out. And the third one was just, um, in the industry generally, you've said that you think that I'm a net negative or leave a bad impression on the property industry.
So we've not met before, I don't believe. Very briefly, but it was many years ago. What year? What year was that? Oh, I want to say about 2016, maybe. You presented at a meeting in Warwickshire. What did you, what did you think when you saw me? You were talking at the time about HMOs, and every property in the country could be an HMO. And I thought, I'm not sure how old you were at the time, but you were, you were young, probably mid-20s. I thought you had a lot of confidence. I thought you, you were quite high level, didn't necessarily get into a lot of the detail around it. And I think probably I'm, I'm quite boring and quite risk-averse. At the time, we were getting into a situation where more and more regulations were coming into the property industry, and I was thinking, I'm not sure all the regs and things are at the top of what you were thinking about, really. But overall, I thought, anybody who's as young as you were at the time is happy to have a go, thought fair play to them, really. Yeah.
And I, I was, I was at the time, if it was 2016, I was running an HMO management company, had a portfolio of HMOs myself in around the Birmingham area. And, um, yeah, but I don't remember the talk. It was a long time ago. So I think it was one of your first ones, certainly. I think you said something around it being one of your first ones, I think. But, but, but anyway, I appreciate you coming down. I think it's really healthy to have debates and conversations. A lot of people online, um, they'll say things online, but then if you get into a discussion, then they'll disappear off or they'll speak with anonymous accounts. You know, you've got, I've done a bit of research into yourself, you've got a property portfolio, you've been in the game quite a long time. And if we disagree, that's healthy. We can thrash it out, we can talk. I'm open. I'm not here to try and win the debate, I'm here to hear feedback, but of course, I'll defend myself. So, which, which point did you want to start with? What do you feel is the, what's the biggest thing that you're kind of disagree with me on?
I think the thing is the stunts and all the rest of it, and the perception on the industry is probably the one thing I thought I'd like to come and talk to you about. Let's do it. Because, uh, I think we all probably know most people hate landlords anyway, so that's, we sort of start from a difficult place. Yeah. And we've also had a pretty difficult time over the last sort of 10 years, and then we've got the Renters Rights Bill and all the rest of it coming in at the moment. So anything that can put out a negative impression of landlords is. And the one that specifically sits in my head, uh, is the chainsaw. And, uh, now I, I looked at that and I, to be honest, because half of me quite strongly disagrees with a lot of what you say and how you position yourself, half of me thinks your marketing is unbelievable and it's far, far better than pretty much anybody else in the property space. And I saw, and I know it's, I'm not necessarily the eyes of your average viewer, right? Yeah. And I'm looking at thinking, I mean, that's incredibly clever marketing, but you can't be chainsawing people's doors. That, I know you weren't chainsawing someone's door down, really. It's a stunt, right? Um, but I think the, I don't know that the positives of that, yeah, for you outweigh the negatives for the industry. You see what I mean?
I fully understand that, um, and it was something that, you know, when I did, and, and, and you can, you can look at the good and look at the bad. I mean, the positive of the chainsaw stunt, and for anyone who doesn't know what the chainsaw stunt was, it was, um, an out-of-context 20-second clip of me chainsawing a door down, um, and, and, and the media went mad with it and ran with it and also jumped to conclusions. And that was part of the point why I did it, 'cause I wanted to actually show that I think that the media will always jump to attack landlords out of context, won't check the facts. No one checked the facts. They didn't write to me and message me and say, was there anybody in it? It was, they just straight away, landlord evicts tenants with a chainsaw. And then I had the opportunity to speak on TV, and I was on GB News and, and, and say, actually, look at how the media attacked me when they didn't have the evidence, they didn't have the facts, they didn't know. So that was my message, or at least that was part of it. Um, and, and it did also, um, you know, brought a lot of dialogue between evictions and so. So although you could say it was negative, and I get that, and I appreciate that, I think that you could argue it both ways, and it's somewhat subjective. I think the problem is the world in which we live in today is about those 22nd clips, isn't it? And I don't know, you might know how many millions of people saw that clip, whatever, tens of millions. Yeah. So we're up in the millions there. How many people then listened to the GB News bit? How many people got into the detail of it? And it'll be far lower, lower numbers again. So you've got a snapshot, and people, I don't think it's right, but people do jump to conclusions in, yeah, two seconds, 20 seconds, yeah, when it happens. And so this is what I mean, you'll have lots of people at the top, at the top of that funnel, if you like. There's a lot of people who've seen a negative, and then, and then a few people. And like I said, I'm not saying I think people should go and research what they see online and all the rest of it, but unfortunately, not everybody does. And the vast minority of people that do, isn't it? So your argument is that people see that out of context and then think, oh, landlords are terrible. And it actually adds to the us and them divide between landlords and tenants. Which I, I understand that. Let me ask a question there. You say, um, you said on your form, the constant engineered stunts. And that is a particularly controversial one. I mean, and I can see where you're coming from, don't totally agree. I think there's a flip side to it. Um, but, but what do you mean, constant? What I guess, in fairness, I don't necessarily watch enough of your stuff to maybe I shouldn't have used the word constant. Um, but you do get the feeling of there's something you're trying to achieve, there's a story that you're telling, yeah, with what you're doing. Pretty much. It's, well, it's well thought through, yeah. Quite like everything you do today, been well thought through, right? So it's part of executing a marketing strategy. So like I say, I think I, I wonder what percentage of people who watch your channel actually understand that. And I think it could be quite a low percentage, really. So they're taking it at face value. And that probably leads into some of the other stuff we're going to.
The chainsaw stunt, though, that's quite a rare. Okay, you're not, you're not walking around with a chainsaw. You're not like the Argentine prime minister. It's quite a rare stunt. Um, but generally speaking, I mean, I document what I do, I document what my students do, I do interviews. It's, it's not constant engineered stunts. So your point B, it's a small percentage of your content. Very, very, very small. But because it was so popular, it maybe feels bigger than it is, which is, yeah, it was a one, it was a one-off event. Which I don't even think was. I mean, if the worst thing that, and we're going to get on to a few of the other points, of course. Wait till you do another crazy one, and then I'll have to call you out. That's what's going to happen. But, but also, it's just marketing, you know, and it, and it, and it's good marketing. So to have a problem to, I mean, that's just controversy sales. And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm leading the, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm leading the marketing campaigns. And I think it's just good marketing. So I, like I said, I started from that position. So obviously on that, on that bit, we agree. I think it's just the, where's the negatives? I'm big on, so for example, big tech. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. The internet's amazing. Smartphones are amazing. Use it badly, and then it's problematic. Kids have problems with smartphone addiction and all the rest of it. Do you know what I mean? So you, it's a, I think at the level that you're at, the level of influence that you're at, it comes with a level of responsibility.
I agree with that. No, I agree with that. And, and, and I'd like to think, and this is why I like doing debates, because it gives you an opportunity to, to, you know, think things through and double check yourself and say, could I do things better? I'm definitely not perfect. I'm, I'm always trying to improve. Um, but I think that my marketing is authentic. A lot of people accuse me of using actors and, um, my success stories, oh, they're not written. All this, you've not said that, um, which is complete nonsense. Everything I do is authentic and, and real. I'm a good marketer. Maybe sometimes I'll slightly overstep the, the, the, the, the line, um, potentially. But I'd like to think that I'm a net positive. And I'd like to think that people do actually see the video and go, what the heck is this about? And then go and do a bit of research and use their brain and see the longer form content.
Um, I think that's an interesting point because I think you're, you're the only person who knows whether you are a net positive or not, because you know how many people you've given free training to, you know how many people watched all your YouTube videos, for example, you know how many have paid for whatever levels of courses that they've done. And you probably know to an extent, not, I mean, you're not going to know everything, but how successful they've been. Or so for me, 'cause like, you know, I come from a trained economics background. So although everything shouldn't be about money, it often gets translated into money. So you would know how much your students have made or not versus how much they've paid.
I do. I see it every. We do, um, awards nights, we do, every month we have dinners, and we, I say to people, if you want to come and share on. In fact, I even did a post. I did a post about three weeks ago that said, um, if you've done the training, Academy, let me know below in the comments how it's going. Not one person went on and said, oh, it's really rubbish. I'm, it was, it was flooded. There was probably about, I don't know exactly how many, but maybe a hundred comments of people saying, I've left my job, I've just become a, um, you know, I've set up a letting agency which is doing six figures, I'm doing. It was just flooded with positivity. So I, I get that. But I think there's also an element online in which people won't necessarily chip in there. If everybody's doing well, I'm not doing well, they just won't say anything. Which is why I say, have to look at your net, your net, your net in versus. And if you've taken 50 million quid and made people 500 million quid, yeah, I'm not going to argue you're a net negative because you're not. You're not in that way. And another thing is as well, and again, you know, not saying I'm perfect, not saying I try, training is perfect. But we obsess over our customers. And the, you know, we do, um, surveys and stuff. We send out to the, to the, we just did one last week, and it's very positive. And if anyone is struggling or not getting results, we go to, you know what I mean? We don't ignore them or think, oh, be quiet. We do the opposite. Every, every time, every week on the Monday night mastermind that I run with all my students, I say, if anyone's struggling, tell me now, share. Do you know what I mean? So of course, not everybody's going to be successful. But I, I'd like to think that I'm a positive in the community.
Um, but what's the other? What was the praying on the vulnerable? Let's talk about that. That's an interesting. We sort of, we've sort of bordering on that, aren't we, really? Because I think the thing is, you, you're in the wealth creation space, right? You would happily go along with that. That means people who are watching your content might be looking at other things like crypto and stuff like that. I'm not, not a big fan of that sort of stuff, 'cause I don't think there's inherent value in it, right? So I think property's a better vehicle. And a friend of mine said to me the other day, he said, I love what Samuel does for the property industry. And I thought, that's interesting. Why? Because I wasn't expecting him to say that. And he said, it's because he draws people towards property who would otherwise have gone to crypto or Forex or this or that. And then once they're in the space, anybody, he also sells training. Anybody's, anybody who's selling training in the space is there to compete with the best marketer or not. And I thought, and that's interesting, because that's a real reframing that I hadn't, I hadn't considered about it.
That's, that's a very, that's what I think about Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad Poor Dad. So many people come to my events and they say, oh, it was actually Robert Kiyosaki's book that got me into the world. So I'm like, oh, that's great. That's a positive. Yeah. And I, I think, very high level, I would agree with that, because the number of people I've met who said that book changed their life in the way they think. But I've also known a number of people say they've done XYZ training, not nothing to do with yours. Um, and those people, I know I've met lots of. I'm in a space where a lot of people message me if they've had a bad experience, because they see me as someone they can come to if they've had a, or someone who can solve problems if they've got a problem. Yeah. The unfortunate reality is 90% plus of them, the problem's already so far down the track that the difficulties, they need to sort of wrap it up and walk away. So it's a, it's a bit too late, really, you know? But I do know some great people who've been through exactly the same training, right? But they have done it almost in spite of that rather than because of it. You see what I mean? So it's difficult sometimes to measure on that basis. But I think you, you're also in the wealth creation space, the get rich quick space, yeah. You know, it is usually, again, how would I measure this? Because I'm, I'm boring and I like to measure stuff and evidence stuff rather than rather than make it up. I would measure it by how many people who pay for one of your courses pay on a credit card. For ex, we know that data. That's what I mean. So we know that track, all that. And what percentage is that? And what percentage is therefore people who are vulnerable because they can't afford it versus, yeah?
Now, that's really interesting. And, and, and we actually track a lot of this stuff. So, would you share it? Yeah, absolutely. I'm quite open and transparent. You know, I'm quite open and transparent. That's why I've come, because that's what that was my expectation. Absolutely.
So, let's compare to university, okay? So university, that's, this is going to be an interesting comparison because I know where you're going to go with this. On university, and we're probably going to end up agreeing, I would imagine, but let's see. Maybe. So university, only 5% of people that go to university can afford it, basically, and use their own money. 95% of them get it on credit, get it on loans. That's university. Our training programs, so 82% of people pay for our training with their savings and can afford it. Wow. And 18% use your credit card. Yeah. So university, you have to consider credit card is going to be 30% interest and loan 6, 7%. And we, but we tell people as well, if they all got on a credit card, and we know, we'll, we'll say, hold on, what's, what's the rate? And if it's silly, we'll tell them not to do it, right? So it's actually quite low. That is a lot lower than I, I think a lot of people would have expected. Yeah. That was that was that's done from 2024, 24. Okay. That was over that whole year. Okay. Pretty good sample. Yeah, yeah. So praying on the vulnerable. So I think people who are, you know, in a bit of a low in their life and things like. So for example, I was, I was fortunate enough to attend a talk with Jordan Peterson a while ago, right? And I had this sort of funny idea in my head about what the audience it was, lots of people there, I don't know, 6, 7,000, something like that. And had this sort of funny idea in my head about what the audience was going to be like, like it was going to be like brimming with intellectuals or strange thinkers and things like that. And it wasn't that at all. It was full of people who'd had loss or needed answers or things like that. Which is a lot of what crosses over with religion. And there are obviously sort of similarities. You probably address that or have that as part of your your persona or you? Yeah, I don't, I can't think of anyone else who trains in property who really even talks about religion in any way, shape or form. So there is that sort of feeling of, which then leads to, is it like a cult? Yeah. You know, because there's a natural.
I'll tell you why, why I do that, because it's an interesting backstory. So when I was, I don't know how old I was, but maybe about 19, 20, I was at a conference called Millionaire Mind Intensive, which is a three-day conference at the Ibis Hotel. There was about 700 people in the room. And the guy that was speaking, very in mind, I'm Christian, and I was, I was a new, I was a new convert. The guy that was speaking, he kept quoting the Bible, but not crediting the Bible. So he'd say things like, you know, "As a man thinketh," or "You reap what you say," and things like that. And I was thinking, that's from the Bible, but he wasn't saying it. And then at the end of the three days, there'd been 700 people hanging on his every word. I went and spoke to him at the end. I got, I got a minute with him and I said to him, "Are you Christian?" And he said, "I am." And I actually judged him at the time. I thought, you've got 700 people, and you didn't even say that you're a Christian? Are you ashamed or something? I didn't say that to him, that's what I was thinking. On the basis that you, one of your roles as a Christian is to spread the word, that it's a positive. It's a positive for you. Exactly. So I kind of, I kind of judged him. And that, as soon as I thought like, why, why did you not? I almost, and I believe it was, it was the voice of God saying to me, well, when you're on stage with 700 people, then you can share, but don't judge him. He's doing him, you're doing you. And, and just, I just felt that. And then fast forward 10 years, I'm on stage with 700 people. So I feel like, as a Christian, I'm not going to preach, I'm not going to tell people you're wrong if you don't believe what I believe. But I feel like I'm not a perfect Christian, but to just let people know and be unashamed of my faith, I think it's important. Um, and that's the reason I do it. I think it's quite honest to say you, and judge someone, because I think everybody judges people in very short snippets of time and things like that. And, you know, to learn from it is, is creditable. But you are going to have people in the get-rich-quick space who are going to make very quick decisions, have sort of, you know.
Yeah, let's talk about that. Let's talk about selling, maybe. Because, um, I think you put on your form, I think I can't remember, but something about pressure selling, preying on vulnerable, that that type of stuff. Saw scarcity pieces and things like that. Sure thing. Yeah. There's obviously the little NLP bits in there. The price ends in a seven. It's this today. It's supposed to be this and it comes down to this price and things like that. Which I think, to be fair, are all things that were probably covered in that, um, BBC program. Well, we talk about it. And you can ask me anything. I don't want you to feel like, hold back, or you can, you can grill me as much as you want. Or because I've got nothing to hide. And if something is said and I'm like, I didn't think about that, then I'll change it. Yeah. So, so, you know, everyone's got to have a way of selling things. And there is a way that has sort of, you know, presided. I've been around this sort of space, the networking side of things since 2011, right? So nearly 15 years now. And there's a, there's a prescriptive formula that people follow, which you, I think have taken bits of and then got rid of some bits of and sort of done your own thing as well. But that does involve all of those, you know, techniques as in, someone's going to run to the back of the room, the price is only this for today, you've got to make a decision now, the volume goes up, so you're shouting at people, and all these other things. Sure. So where does the line exist between, like we've already discussed the marketing side, now we're discussing the sales side, right? So where does the line exist between, and I think, you know, everybody draws the line in different places. I've seen people do things and I've also heard people say things, the same people offline, and they've been very, very different from how they appear when they're on stage. So I know I've got, I'll tell you exactly what I do, how it works.
Okay, tell me if you think it's right, if it's fair. I mean, for a start, where the line gets crossed, I think if you, obviously, this is kind of obvious, but if you, if you lie. So if you say the, uh, the price is this, but right now it's this, but actually it's not. If it's a false, uh, if you've never sold anything at that price. You mean, not just never sold, if you just don't, if it's a fake offering. If, if you, if you're on booking.com and it says two rooms left, that's not pressure selling, that's just saying two rooms left. It might create urgency, but if it's not true, and it's a lie, then, then, then, then we have a problem because now it's, it's dishonest. So I think that's a big part of it. Um, and we don't, we don't lie. We don't say this is the, the, I mean, we do do an offering at the crash course, and I do very passionately sell. Sure. But we don't mislead people or say that, you know, um, I mean, you can look at all of our prices on the website, and people buy them individually. At the crash course, we do an offer, and I, I, I'll say these are the programs that I'd recommend, you look at this, this, this, this, this. We do an offer, I sell it passionately. But I think also it's about, are you passionate? Are you just as passionate about the delivery as you are about the sale? I think that's also important. If you're, if you're all focused on marketing and selling, marketing and selling, marketing and selling, and I've seen a lot of training companies do this, that they'll blow up and they're really good at marketing, they're really good at selling, but then after a year, they disappear because they've got disgruntled customers, they're not getting results. Whereas I spend 90% of my time on the training business, delivering. And I, I think that you could ask our customers. Um, I'm, I'm probably more passionate about delivering and offering support and mentorship and training than I am about the sale. And I think that's also, if, if you're selling passionately, and then you're delivering passionately, and you're not doing anything dishonest, I tell, I tell people at the, all my free events, it's just going to be hard. It's tough. It's everything's hard. I lost a lot of weight.
That's interesting because I've never heard you say that. That is not something I've ever seen you say. But that's part of it. My, my syntax at every crash course, that's something I very much, I very much believe in. Myself is hard. What I say is, I say it's hard being fat, 'cause I used to be fat. But you know what? It's also hard. It's hard being slim. So you have to choose the hard. It's hard being, um, I think it's easier to be fat. First, well, maybe I was. I was getting to the point though, Adam, where I was having breathing difficulties in bed, I was getting chapped legs, I was breaking chairs. That's hard. It's, it's a different, what is it? It's a different kind of hard. Yeah, yeah. I see. And, and it's hard being married. It's hard being single. Sure. It's hard having kids. It's hard not having kids. I say this at every crash course, and then I say, and guess what? Being successful in property, having a property business, and having tenants and having staff, it's bloody hard work. It's really hard. But you know what's also hard? Having a job. I've done both. I've worked as, I've worked. I remember when I was working as an estate agent, and I was working six days a week, and if I wasn't, if I didn't answer the phone, if it rang three times, I'd get a disciplinary. Sure. That was really hard. And I'm going to be thinking, if I'm going to work hard anyway, I might as well work for myself and build a business. So if, um, and I say this, these are my exact words, every crash course, I say, this is not a guarantee, this is an opportunity. It's not a promise, it's a process. So I'm quite clear, um, about the struggles, the difficulties. And of course, you might take a 30-second video on TikTok and say, oh, he makes it look too easy. Or fine, that's the marketing, that's the short form content. Come and explore. And I think when people watch the long form content, see winners on a Wednesday, where I interview my success students, I'll often say, what was the biggest struggles? What were the challenges? What were the hardships? So I think personally, it's quite weak when people say that. I can see why they might say it based on a few TikTok videos, but I'm pretty genuine and authentic. And also, it wouldn't make sense for me as a, like, if you're, if you're a letting agent, if I contact a HMO management company and say, what's, what, what area works best? Does it, will this work? If they say to me, oh, that'd be great, just to get the business, now they're going to have a property that's really difficult, and they're going to struggle to manage it, and it's going to be a pain. In the same way, if I say to people, yeah, it's going to be really easy, you, I'm not going to have a student that's hard to work with. So setting expectations in business is really important. And I think that's something we do reasonably well.
So, so, so in terms of people who are successful after, let's say, 12 months of training or whatever, you must know the figures. Well, first of all, I suppose, how do you define that they've been successful? Yeah, that's a great question. Well, it's, it's difficult. You know, people sometimes say to me, you know, what percentage of people are successful when they come to this course or that course or the crash course? And of course, the, it's very difficult to track because if someone comes to a crash course, sometimes people stop me in the street and they go, I went to your crash course four years ago, I've now got 10 houses. They're not on our, they're not on your radar. No, we don't, we don't. You could reach out to them. I mean, you could measure it. I went to a, again, I think it's something that doesn't really exist in the space. And I was at quite a big event before Christmas, and I was very impressed with the fact they had measured it. They'd taken 25% of the people who were in their community and said, how many deals have you done this year? Do that. And I thought, so that gives you a good idea of. And, you know, I can share, I can share. Someone might have done 200 deals. Someone might have done. So what, what sort of stats? What sort of percentage looks good as a success rate? So in your eyes? Yeah, we, we do track stuff. I'm, I'm mad into tracking data. Yeah. Um, so at our last academy graduation, which was when they finished the 12-month program and they've gone through all the training, we did a survey with with everybody from that batch, which was about a month ago. How many people would that be roughly? About 30. Okay. Yeah, because we, we take people on in batches and we, we track this every month. Yeah. But it's generally pretty consistent. So that was, do you remember the percentage? The 2,000 or more? 86%. 86%. 86% were making £22,000 or more per month, but they weren't making before they started. Now, some of them were making 10, 15. Sure. You know, and the ones that weren't, 'cause some people say, well, what about the 14%? They were really happy. It might be that doing a slower strategy, because it can take a year and a half to get one if you're doing buy, refurbish, refinance. They might have not been making money, but they're still doing stuff, or they're happy, or they say, you know what, I've made some friends, I've grown personally. But 86% £2,000 a month more. And that, to be honest, that's a stat that I'm very proud of. Yeah. And I don't think anyone can compete with that.
I think, I think, I think people could compete with it, but probably not on the scale at which you're doing it, which is the, which is the difference. But I think, I mean, it is that, is that an impressive stat. You know, but I think you could go and find about, you know, years down the line if you wanted to. I'm sure we sent last week where I'm coming from is, I've seen people over the years say to me, because I bought a lot of property, yeah, how, how did you do it? What training did you do? Yeah. And I've said to them, I didn't do any. So when I came into the space, I would go to the networking meetings like the one you presented at and found my feet. And it took, it took me a while to do that and find the people that I wanted to work with. Yeah. And I couldn't, I knew about the sales and marketing techniques that I was talking about earlier, and it put me off. And actually, I get that. The first time I bought a bit of training off someone, which was, I decided at a point I needed a letting agency and I wasn't sure whether to start one or buy one or whatever. Who was training in the space? Uh, might do mind if I say? Drop anyone, right? So, uh, Sally Lawson, who was ex-president, right? Yeah. She just started training. And she did exactly the same sort of scarcity and music and all the rest of it. And I went up to her afterwards, 'cause throughout the whole day that I'd seen, I thought, this is brilliant, I definitely want to buy this. And I literally had to have my fingers in my ears for that sell bit. So I was like, I'm going to now have to, and got past my own blocker in my mind, which is like, someone using those techniques must be a bad person. Which I was wrong about, really. They've just been taught that way, right? And they've decided not to do it any other way. Which I think there are other ways of doing it. And when you go to sort of massive company levels, and massive training company levels, they don't sell that way. They sell, you know, they sell by reputation and they sell by education, educational value. You know, that's interesting. I got a load of value of what I bought from Sally. It was, it was phenomenal.
So you think some people throw the baby out with the bathwater? Because I know that I did. So what percentage of people that don't know, but they definitely will. Yeah. It's interesting. I, I mean, um, I mean, in terms of selling, the, you know, the day that I deliver is a, it's a very long day of value. And the sale might be about 20 minutes. And before I say, as well, I tell people, I'm going to. Yeah, yeah. I'll say, "Hey, would it be right if I talk a little bit about some of the advanced training?" Um, my sale converts about 10% of the room, right? Um, obviously, which must be a pretty good conversion rate, is it? By thought from they come for, they still come, pound, they've come for, come for pounds. But another thing as well, and again, this is why it kind of irritates me when people talk about, you pray on people or you, even impulse buying. It's, I think it's the opposite of impulse buying because it's like, I'm, I'm talking with them on Instagram, I'm sending them YouTube videos, they're watching me for weeks and weeks and months. And I'll for free value, and then offering the try before you buy, doing a full day with them. Me personally, it's not like when I started, I'd go to these two-hour sales presentation evenings. I'm actually giving them a lot of value. They hear me on the phone to agents, they see what I'm doing, I'll answer questions, and then I'll get their permission and do a 20-minute sale.
It seems to me, well, I suppose the way, when presumably there still has to be cooling-off periods and all the rest of it. Yeah. I mean, we don't really get people as well. That's another interesting point, because that would be what I was going to say. You could measure that again, couldn't you? I know I keep banging on about stats and data. Well, I love it. I'm a nerd, right? That's what I do. It's great. And you can't improve unless you look at the data. Sure. Um, we don't really get, very few refund requests. It's, it's around 2% of people ask for a refund. And, yeah, if they ask for a refund after they've bought, and the next day, they're like, oh, of course, we, we, we'll give them a refund. Also, if they're really struggling. So if someone's got mental health issues, or even if they're six months into the program, you know, we'll either offer them the support or we'll give them a refund or a part refund. Working quite a compassionate company. And I think, I think that's why we're thriving. And, and I get what you mean about the sales. I do do a, I do do a passionate sale. Might not be everybody's cup of tea.
Well, I think you believe what you do, which seems to be what comes across to me more from doing this. Um, and then you are going to be passionate. Yeah. Otherwise, if you were not being genuine in that, it would be the most tiring thing I could imagine to be somebody different. And I've got a portfolio myself. I know you've got a portfolio. I was, I was a property investor. And I think this is another thing. Um, I mean, I'm a trainer. My training business lost money for the first four years, right? Which is, which is people might not even believe that. No, look, new businesses often lose money before they get big. I mean, you must have taken a big bite out of the space because I was thinking about it on the way down here. Thinking, well, I don't know how many years ago you started doing that properly. But there were, there was really only one or two providers in the space. Now there's four or five decent-sized ones. Which, looking from the outside, without knowing the market data, I assume you're the biggest. I think we are. Yeah. And, and, and I think we, um, I mean, the, the support, 'cause the thing is, a lot of the time, you've got small training companies, and that's fine. And they often use their USP as, "We don't have more than 20 people in the room because we don't believe in that, it's unethical." It's like, no, you can't get more than 20 people in the room, let's be real. You know, use it as a USP. That's just good marketing, right? If you've got a small business, you've got to work with what you've got in front of it. Although it can backfire, because if it works now, suddenly you've lost your USP. That's fair, right? Um, and a lot of the smaller companies that might be, you know, one or two people running it, um, if they're on holiday, I mean, I had this when I'd sell someone a 12-month mentorship, and, and, and now I'm their mentor, but then after six months, I want to go on holiday for a couple of weeks, I can't. My phone's constantly going. I became financially free in property just to become a slave to to set up a training business. Um, and it's difficult.
So how do you handle that now? Well, now we've got, um, 12 million air mentors and me. So if you're an academy member and you want to book a mentoring call, you can. We just passed the back on to each other. Li. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we've got solicitors, accountants, lawyers. We offer unlimited. And this is another thing I do believe strongly that if you're selling a course thousands of pounds, you need to, I know there's people out there who sell a £1,000 course, an online course, and it's just a bunch of videos. It's like, okay. Or well, you, I've heard you say yourself that, you know, your YouTube channel has got everything on there in terms of the knowledge, but people won't necessarily. Well, I mean, do the doing without the, yeah, I mean, a little bit of the stick, but, you know, you know what I mean? The guidance, whatever. You could argue that everything's online for free. And if you want to learn, I'm pretty sure I've heard you say it yourself. I think I'm pretty sure I got that from you. Well, there's truth in that. If you want to learn something, you can chat GPT. Not, not everything. If you try, chat me your own channel, you see, because there's obviously so much content on there. Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot of good content there. But I think that it's night and day. It's like learning to drive, or learning to box, or learning to. You can't really. If you were getting on a plane and the pilot said, "I watched a lot of YouTube videos, you're going to be just fine." You wouldn't put your life in the hands of that pilot. No. And in the same way, if you're putting your life savings into a deal that somebody's found, you want to know that that person's properly been trained, that they've got, you know, they've got sister accountants around them that convert their deals and look at them. And that's what we do. We vet everybody's deal. If they're looking to buy something, I tell everybody, don't buy a deal unless you've passed it to us first. Let us look at the blind spots. Um, you know, this support is, is, is immense. Um, it's not for everybody. Can you, can you become successful in property without going on training programs? You're proof that you can. You never went on training programs. But then you could argue that you, you went to Oxford University. You, you, you know, there's an inherent advantage in that. You would say you went to Oxford. Um, you, you know, I think was your dad in, he was an accountant, but he became a tax and trust specialist. Yeah, yeah. And did he help you a little bit or no? I've no start. Lost money. Started. No, never lost me any money. But I started from no money, but lots of education. Yeah. Ultimately, which was not nothing. Yeah. So fair to say. So, you know, you can do it. Would it be easier? Would you have, um, benefited from from the academy, from the networking alone? I would probably say yes. I say I've said to a lot of people over the years when they ask me that question in terms of what have you done? I've said, I didn't, I didn't do anything. But it took, or it took me a few years to even. And then it was more sort of specific targeted stuff. Is that ultimately because they normally look at me with a bit of a sad face to be honest, because they've just spent 10 grand, 25 grand, whatever, on on a course. And I say, well, just think what you, what you'll always have at the end is the network, right? Because some of these networks of those cohorts do stay together for years and years, and they do have obviously they have a value. Yeah. And that's another thing as well with the 25 grand thing. The maximum you can spend, if you said to me, I wanted all your advanced mentorships, and also a lot of the training companies, they've got hidden upsells. Sure. But I don't, I don't think that's ethical. I think, personally, I think, and it's not illegal. So if you want to do that, that's fine. But I personally think all your programs, all your mentorships, the most advanced stuff should be on your website with a price list. That's what I believe. And if you did everything, all the mentorships, all our training, it would be £122,000. And there's no upsell. There's no additional, oh, well, if you want to, if you want to come to my house.
And learn from me personally, then it's 25. No, it's included. Everything's included. So, so after 12 months, do you check them out or, or can they stay for another 12 months and do another 12,000 worth? After 12 months, I'm assuming it is 12 months. Sorry. Yeah, yeah, it is. So 12 months, 12 grand, and that's mentoring, coaching, support, all the training, all of our programs, everything. And then after the 12 months, if they want to rejoin, they can do. But because they already did it and they've done all the training and they've come to all the, it's, it's 1195, right? I think a lot of people do reinvent stuff a bit the same way. You know, washing powder will say, well, it's new Daz today. Yeah. And they've done that for as long as there's ever been TV ads about, about washing powder. So they just do the same. I think they do the same thing, repurpose their content or chop and change a little bit, give it a new name. Well, or something changes in the market. We don't give it a new name. We, we just. No, I'm not suggesting that you are. I'm saying what you were saying about what's unethical if people have hidden. Oh, hidden. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, we've had the academy since, I think, 2017. Not changed the name. We've just made it better. And, and, and again, because of things like this, because I love debating people and I love hearing feedback, for me, I'll take it. I'm, I'm all about feedback. So, so how have you made it better since 2017? Great question. Um, for a start, um, we ask the academy members what they want and then we give it to them. So since 2017, oh my goodness, we've now got, uh, property investors mediation service. So if you sell a deal and it goes a bit sour, we've got a team of of mediators and also lawyers that will come in. We'll investigate, we'll mediate, and then we'll adjudicate. So it keeps it. You said it was this and it was actually this sort of thing. Yeah. So let's say you're on the academy and you sell a deal to somebody and it goes a bit sour, it will, we've got a team that will step in, investigate, and sort it out. So it keeps it safe. We've got, um, um, rate my deal where you can upload deals. We've got Samuel Le Finance where I invest the profits that we make in the training company. I put it into a pot and invest it into the students' deals. That's sort of equity. Um, you, so I mean, so can they, they get a mortgage and you'll give them the rest? Right. I see. So you're doing the first charge instead of. Right. Yeah. We've also added people. So we've got now full-time accountant. We've got a full-time builder. So if, if, if you look at a property and you're wondering how much it's going to cost for the refurb, you do a video, upload it on the app, and then we'll give you an estimate quote. He's full-time. He just estimates quotes all day in the basement. Um, we've got, um, an app. We've got a social media platform called Samuel Social. We've got people wanted to sometimes they said, I just want to get to know you, Sam. You know, I want to hang. So every Sunday, I invite people to come train with me at the gym, go to church. I open up my Sundays and all the academy members are welcome. Makes holidays hard. What's that? Makes holidays hard. Well, if my holiday, obviously, it doesn't happen. Um, we, we, we have, um, all of the training programs that we have because I'm only one person, I'll be teaching and living the training. But then we've got, uh, mentor boxes. So if anyone is struggling or finds a deal and they want someone to look at it, rather than, oh, put the hand up and hope they can't ask me, but they can slip out, have a mentor session anytime, as often as they want through all the training programs that we run, which are four days long. Um, just, just constant, just constantly listening. Even one recently was, um, rate my phone call. So when people are calling agents and trying to get deals, um, and they're like, what am I saying wrong? They can record themselves, upload it, and I'll listen to it and then give them feedback. We have masterminds, not just on a Monday. We have Monday night mastermind, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, every day. We have things going on. We, we, we, we just last year started the Inner Circle. So we've got 25 meetings across the country where people can meet with people from their hometown, Scotland, Wales, all over the place. Um, so it's just, just constant obsessing over the delivery of making it epic customer service, speed. We respond. The average response time is 37 minutes. Um, and that's not just to academy members, that's across the board. So I'm just obsessed with getting better, man. And I think that feedback, hearing criticisms, whether it be on sales, marketing, and then getting better is, is, is super important in business. Well, I think it's the only way to get better. And if you look at the best companies in the world, ultimately their customer satisfaction is through the roof. Yeah. From Aldi to Disney to whoever. I mean, that's definitely documented fact. So if you went back, I don't know, few years or over the years, has, has, have you then seen the success rate in your delivery change? Because obviously 86% is, is pretty exceptional, you know? So, yeah, what's it been over the last five years? Do you know that's a, um, it's, it's hovered around the 80s for the last few years. Um, I mean, I don't, I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't give you a stat over the, over the last five years. Um, but it's, it's high because we, we obsess over the delivery and the support. But I think as we've got better and we've grown and our infrastructure has become better, I definitely think that the success rate is higher because now people would join the academy and then they'll, the support's better. They'll be able to go to a local group. They'll be, you know, I mean, we've got over a thousand members. Yeah. So it's a big. Currently live as we're speaking today. So how many have been through the whole process in total these days? By, um, now, I mean, we've had, not, not just the academy, but our students across the board, including even the one pound events, right? Um, it's over 50,000. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot, man. Yeah. It's a lot. And, uh, not everybody likes me. I'm not everybody's cup of tea. That's okay. I think, uh, Stephen Bartley says you've got to upset people sometimes, or he, he said it in a better way than that, but. Well, no, if, if some people might not particularly love me in the property industry, but often it's competitors that are a bit salty, to be perfectly honest. Not always, but it's like, if you look at. That's why you have to box them occasionally, right? Yeah, occasionally box them, you know, and, and or, or dialogue, whatever it is. But, yeah, I've got nothing to hide. I think I run a good business. Not perfect. Sometimes might slightly overstep the back boundaries with with marketing stunts. Does sound. I'm going to change your mind in stopping doing that either, to be honest. Well, I don't know. I mean, how would we track that? You're a data guy. How would we track was the change of stunt a net positive or net negative? I think it'd be very difficult to track. Track the emojis on whatever app. Probably angry face. Maybe you're right. Maybe you're right. Yeah. On that point, um, but you're right about social. You know, the, you said controversy sales, I think you said earlier on, and that's social media is wired that way. They've mapped every brain and knows that that's what gets the clicks. Yeah. And also, if you're not, if you're not hated by people, you're probably not doing something right. Because the bottom line is, I'm not saying deliberately be hated, but if you're really good at something and you're dominating in the market space, look at Steve Jobs. The engineers hated him. They said, oh, he does, he's not a real engineer. He doesn't know what he's doing. Okay, well, he's, he's changed the face of the planet. Nelson Mandela was locked in prison for being a terrorist and then ended up winning a Nobel Peace Prize, becoming the president of South Africa. Now he's a hero. Socrates, he teaching people about critical thinking. At the time, he was killed by the government because he was causing trouble. I mean, a nuisance. Now he's, we study his philosophy. So if I piss a few people off in the industry and rustle some feathers and upset people, I can live with that. The bottom line is, what do my customers think of me? What do my staff think of me? What do my family think of me? I'm not worried too much if people are salty or upset or throwing a bit of shade. It's not nice. I wish everybody liked me, but I can understand that. I've ultimately bought properties cheap. Yeah. And I'm a landlord. And some people, there's, there's a percentage of the population that think people shouldn't own properties. They should all be owned by the government or whatever. People could accuse you of preying on the vulnerable in the same way that they accused me of if you if you bought stuff cheap. You know, a lot. But again, that's probably a perception thing because a lot of people think it might be Mrs. Miggins and she's 89 years old, whereas really the vast majority of stuff that we buy, it's a landlord who hasn't declared it to HMRC, hasn't got their compliance in place, hasn't done the works, hasn't done all of these things. And that's why the property needs to trade fast. Yeah. And they need to, they need to get out, they need to cut the liability. And also, you've got to bear in mind when you, a lot of people don't understand when the best way I think to get discounted property is to buy fast. Yeah. But you've got to understand there's a reason why the surveyors call it 180-day value because that's what it takes. It takes 180 days to receive that value. If you want it in 45, 37, tomorrow, yeah, that's a different price for each one of those because the risk that the buyer's got to take. We've bought properties where there's rivers running underneath them that were not disclosed and nobody could pick up. We've bought properties that, all, all sorts of crazy things. People have broken in after people have done this, people have done that. Every single story you could. Well, I say that there's always a new story. There's every, every month there's a new story that you think you'd never seen before. But that's risk versus price. But that's me treating it as an asset class. And like I said, there's a percentage of the population who don't even think morally it should be an asset class. So I get why. Need to check out some more of your content, man. And I'm interested in what you do. I don't know if there's any other. Send you to sleep. Yeah, maybe. Probably not. I don't. Was there any other points or questions or issues you wanted to address? Now, I think we've, I think we've done a pretty. I think there's quite a bit of other stuff that we could talk about, but I'm, I'm mindful that you've got lots of other people to see today and all the rest of it. So. Well, Adam, appreciate you coming out and, uh, being in touch. And, uh, thank you so much. Thank you very much. Good conversation. I think, uh, Samuel had answers for a lot of stuff that we talked about. I think he was well prepped. So, uh, enjoyed learning a bit more about him as well and, uh, what he thinks about his business. I would like him to think a bit more before some of the stunts that he pulls, as I said, that was the, the big thing for me in, uh, in my debate topics that were chosen, thinking about what public perception might be of property owners, landlords, and all the rest of it. I think it's very healthy. I think it's very difficult. He said, you know, he opened the interview by saying people quite often post things online and run away and anonymous accounts and all the rest of it. And I really don't like that stuff. So definitely always healthy to talk.