Transcription
Guess how much the wellness industry is predicted to be by next year, 2027?
Surely, like 7 trillion?
$8.5 trillion.
Sarah, an MLIN, was scouted as a model at 15. But a brutal industry and a health crisis changed everything. At 23, I was hospitalized. My kidney was kind of like pushing out, and I was going into like these tremors.
If you did eat two portions of oily fish a week, it could really benefit your things like ADHD and dyslexia. Diets do not last more than 12 months. If you take the tea off diet, you get dye. I never believe that we should cut. I believe we should always add.
What should I not put in my shopping basket? And I'm like, "Can you add £3,000 bonus GPs might be getting for giving these GLP ones out?" Injecting a supplement is wild.
80% of people regain their weight 12 months after going off GLP-1.
How long after you were hospitalized did you turn to nutrition? Within that year, she went on to earn a first-class degree in nutrition and founded one of the UK's most important mental health nonprofits. This is a story everyone needs to hear.
I am terrified about. But first, if you could do me a huge favor and click the subscribe button or leave a five-star review, it will literally take you two seconds, and it really helps us keep bringing you guests to help you live a happier, healthier life. Thank you.
Hi, I'm Sarah, an MLIN, and welcome to Her Discussions podcast. We've had so many community questions about nutrition and, you know, your experience working clinically as well, and some of the clients that you have had. But first, I would love to go back to teenage Sarah. I believe you were scouted as a model when you were 15. Tell me a little bit about her at that age and how that has shaped your relationship with nutrition over the years.
Wow. Um, 15-year-old me. Well, that's going back a very long time. She was very curious. Um, very confident, I would say. Um, but like had no idea I was going to get scouted as a model. Like, I don't want people to come in here and think that this was like my wildest dream. Like, I didn't at all think that this was going to happen. I was spotted at a pop show in Southampton, and like, this is back in the day when you had like Nokia 3210s, you know? I like had a phone number, but business cards were given to me, and it was like all different modeling agencies from London. And it was this weird moment where I actually second-guessed. I thought they were scouting my friends and not me. So I was like, "Oh, you've been scouted." And they were like, "No, you." And so I obviously had like complete disbelief. And then I went home and told my mom, and she told me that actually it happened two years previous as well, when I was in London, when I was 13. But she obviously like never told me. I had a very wonderful mother who was like, "Education first," but I was obviously like devastated to be like, "How could you not tell me? I was not scouted." So anyway, I got signed just as I was 15, really, and started modeling. And I think at the beginning, it didn't really affect me 'cause my mom was really strict about me doing my education. And then she said, like, "When you're 18, you can decide what you want to do." But I was very lucky. I had some amazing shoots in those years that I was studying. And then the moment I finished my last exam, I went to London 'cause I was like, "This is a once-in-a-lifetime thing." And I think the way that it shaped my relationship with food is now, it's really hard to put yourself back like nearly 20 years, 'cause that's basically when it was. But now everyone speaks about health. Everyone has a platform. Everyone's interested in it. People care about it. It's cool. Like, it's cool to be in health. Back then, it was not cool. Like, no one really spoke about these things. So you kind of found bits and pieces just from trial and error yourself or from like crazy. You all you heard about was calories. The one thing I didn't like about myself when I was growing up is that I was really thin, and I was, I felt quite boyish in my figure. And I think when you're at school and you see people develop, you're like, "Oh, I really want like bums and boobs and like to be sexy." And I like didn't, that wasn't what I had, but it paid off in my modeling years. So, it was like, actually, the boy figure kind of worked. And so, I think I became more aware of my body, but it was only over time and like compounding time that you start to have more of a connection to like the food that you're consuming or the little food that you're consuming that has a big impact. And I think the biggest shift for me was when I went to New York. So I lived in New York, and America's always five years ahead of London, and the health culture was just starting. Gwyneth Paltrow had just started Goop. So that was like the first like wellness thing. And I think when your financial success is based on what you look like, you put a lot more pressure on it as well. And also, when you're surrounded by beautiful women 24/7, you know, I lived in a model apartment where three beautiful women were around me the whole time. You're watching what they're doing. You know, it's like you think about Instagram, you're watching like, "What is this person doing in the day of a life of X?" You're quite like, you want to know. But I was like surrounded by that the whole time. And so I would pick up on all these like maybe not great habits. Walk around health food shops. Remember Whole Foods and being like, "Right, if I spend all this money, I'm going to be really healthy." But I had like no idea what healthy was, if that makes sense. There was no like good resource that I could go to or one that I connected to as an early person in my 20s, you know? It was either people from the NHS saying one thing that I was like, "This feels so far from my world that I can't connect and I don't relate," or nothing, or like Goop. So, yeah, I think I kind of struggled in that world. And I think on top of that, I am definitely a perfectionist and type A and all those things. And so I want to always do my best. And so my best was like, "What's the best diet I can have to look like X and to earn more money and to get more jobs?" And so I definitely put crazy amounts of pressure. But what it taught me, you know, was that actually doesn't bring you the best health. You know, the obsession around like wanting to eat healthy the whole time. And I didn't have an eating disorder or anything. I didn't have like, I wasn't anorexic or anything like that. But I definitely had a real stress around everything needing to be right and perfect because that's how I earn my money. And when you know like what every part of your body looks like, that's just not healthy. And anyway, I ended up like not in a great space at 23 and being hospitalized. I kind of fell, like fell over, kind of had a thing called Raynaud's, which is when like your, my kidney was kind of like pushing out, and I was going into like these tremors, and ended up in hospital with like urosepsis and BCysts and internally bleeding and like a whole host of things that happened in one day. And it's interesting, you know, you would probably say I had the model diet, but I wasn't having the healthiest version of me. And I accumulate that now to like a full habitual burnout phase, which is when my body just was like, "We're done," type of thing. Like, your head is overriding every signal that we're trying to send to you. And what that made me do was pivot into like, "Okay, I need to like understand like how I look after myself." And like the first place I can think about that is food, in nutrition. So it then opened me up into this whole new world that no one was speaking about like back then, like that no one, like it was very uncool.
It was very uncool, I have to say. And I think every person sat me down and they were like, "What are you doing?" It was like this Legally Blonde moment, you know, when she like goes to, she goes to Harvard, and she's like, "Everyone's like, I'm a biochemist," and "Same children in Africa," and she's like, "Well, I graduated as prom queen." And she's got her job. And I was like, "Oh my god, this is me." Um, and yeah, very slowly, I started to realize like, "Wow, there is so much that I don't know about nutrition. There is so much misinformation out there. There's so much that I've been told that makes me think that I'm going to be healthy that it isn't. And I've had such a warped mindset." My intentions were, "I really want to be this like healthy, vibrational, you know, glowing person." Like, my real feelings being that was there. And I think that's what a lot of people want with their health, right? They really want that end goal. But we become like so misaligned and misdirected on our way. And we normally do it from a place of low self-worth and low self-esteem and comparing ourselves to everyone, which is definitely where mine came from, that we kind of end up on the wrong track. So then I started studying and go, "Well, the more I know, the less I know."
Oh, the Dunning-Kruger, like, absolutely. I feel that on an emotional level. How long after you were hospitalized did you, did you turn to nutrition?
Within that year.
Wow. Oh, so that's quite a quick pivot.
Yeah. I mean, from I left New York, and I had, I remember like having so many conversations back here with agents and people like, "What are you doing?" Um, and I was like, "I don't know. It just feels right." But it's weird because back then, like, it wasn't a trend. Like it, like it was not cool to go and study nutrition. Like my grandmother was like, "What is that?" I was like, "Kind of like, you understand about food and your body and how you like live well." I think I did it for me. Like, I did that for myself, you know? It was something that as a model, I had like no identity as a person. I had no purpose. I had no identity. I was a chameleon. I did what everyone else told me to do. At the same time, I traveled the world. I met amazing people. Like, this isn't like violin. But I think in those early years, it's so important that you, you understand who you are. You have some type of identity, right? You have something that you love or something that you feel passionate about. And I became successful very young, and I'm so grateful for that, but I just didn't know who I was. And so I think what going back to study did was allow me to understand more about who I am and like who is Sarah underneath it all. And so that was like a big part of it. I, I just think about how spongy my brain was at those years, and how I look back on maybe comments that boys might have made about my body that really, they took so many years of unlearning, or even, you know, comments that maybe my mom made about her diet.
Yeah.
That just took so many years of unlearning. And then I, I tried to put myself in your shoes and how much more intense the scrutiny of your body must have been, how much more intense the pressure on what you were eating must have been. And I have so much admiration for turning that into something beautiful. That must have been really, really, really tricky when your brain is young and it's malleable, and you don't have the tools to handle those sorts of things.
Yeah. And honestly, it felt the most unravelling thing to do. I just knew I had to do that to survive, if that made sense. And it's weird because I think people look at your end journey now, right? Like I'm way older now, I'm way wiser. I still have doubts all the time. But people go like, "How did you get there?" or "How?" Like, and it sounded like it was easy. Like six weeks into me starting uni, I, I had a panic attack, like my first full-blown panic attack. I called my mom, and all I remember her saying is, "I don't even know if this is good advice. Maybe you can tell me because you're a doctor, but she was like, 'Find a brown paper bag and blow into the brown paper bag.'" And it was like this stereotypical moment of me like sitting outside my university being like, and just being like, "What have I done?" Like, I'd left this social life like, you know, with money and security, and I had a mortgage, and I was, you know, I had a house. So, I had basically set myself up. And then I was like, "Wait, I'm now not earning any money and spending all this money in tuition fees, and I don't even know if I'm smart," 'cause I had a belief that I wasn't smart. And so, I just remember being like, "I can't do this." Like, I can't, like the whole journey was not easy. And, and I went to my professor six years, and I was like, "I'm going to drop out." And she was like, "Why?" I was like, "Because I'm not smart." And you just saw her look at me and she was like, "What? Why would you say that?" Before modeling, like, I didn't feel like that. I disconnected in all my classes. I was always told to stand outside because I was talking. I was daydreaming the whole time. And I had no idea I was neurodivergent.
And so I didn't understand my brain. So I just kind of switched off. And I always wanted to, while I did really well when I went home and worked really tough, but I found it tough because I didn't understand how my brain worked. And so I had this amazing moment with my professor. He was like, "I think you're dyslexic. And I think that's why you feel overwhelmed, and I think that's why you're zoning out." And two weeks later, I was. But it was like the biggest moment for me in like all of my transitions of my career because I was like, "Wow, that was a moment that someone gave me space, compassion, time, empathy, like all of these things that are way more important for our intelligence than our emotional intelligence." And then I didn't drop out. And then I stayed, and I graduated, and I was like, "I did something I didn't think I'd ever do. I fell in love with something that I never thought I'd fall in love with, and I was like, I found out who I was on the way." And like that took me on a path. And so I think sometimes when you hear people's stories, they can sound really easy, like, "Oh, she had this moment, and then she went into this, and then that happened." But there were so many moments of like panic attacks and doubts and feelings of low self-worth again, and like, "Have I [ __ ] it all up and done the wrong thing?" But I think like, if you follow like what your body is trying to tell you, then it will always work out. It just might not be smooth.
Follow what your body's trying to tell you in this world where it's harder and harder and harder to tune into your body and listen to those signals. But I think it's such an important piece of advice.
Yeah.
And I love that you mentioned that you're neurodiverse because I believe you've spoken a little bit about feeding for your brain if you're neurodiverse. So, we're going to come on to that a little bit later on. But first, we have a section on this podcast called Buy or Bye-Bye. Now, in Buy or Bye-Bye, I will show you something on a piece of paper, and I would like to hear whether you would buy this thing or say bye-bye to it. Now, the only rule is we absolutely love nuance. There is not enough nuance on social media. Great. So, any caveats, full explanations you want to give,
you are free. This is this is your space.
Okay. Starting with celery juice.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.
Yeah.
Too much sodium.
Too much sodium.
Yeah. Done.
A nice quick one.
Yeah.
Cutting carbs.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye. Okay. Yeah. Done. Goodbye. We need them.
Yeah. That is why you were saying nutrition wasn't cool however many years ago. That is why there's a generation of mums and that I was raised on nutrition advice that's just awful. It is. It's only through doing this podcast and speaking to lots of nutritionists that I've questioned long-held beliefs that I've held and actually not even recognized. So, a big one for me was, um, like nut butters and nuts.
Because nuts are just
unnecessary calories.
Wow.
And then but no, no, exactly. Unnecessary calories. Sorry for anyone listening. I'm doing, I'm doing the quotation marks because maybe it's not even my mom. It was that era of social media. Maybe it was when I was in sixth form, and it was a lot of PTs, and they would hold up a tablespoon of Nutella and then a tablespoon of peanut butter, and they would say the Nutella is less calories. I completely recognize the nutritional value.
Yeah.
The, the added nutritional value that comes from nut butters versus Nutella. But I think this idea that nut butters or nuts are super calorific had really stuck with me. And it was only through a couple of these episodes where, you know, every single nutritionist will talk about the power of nuts. You know, the fiber power of nuts, the, you know, the nutrient value, the cardiovascular benefits, many benefits. You want good skin? Have nuts. So then now, you know, I get to the middle of the afternoon and I have this like slump, and I've been doing my my handful of nuts every, almost every single day, and it's been such a testament to like overcoming this long-held belief that is just complete,
you know, [ __ ]. And I think that's from nutrition maybe seen as boring.
We need more of of this, you know.
It's true, but also that was an authoritative figure telling you something. That as a child, you're obviously going to be like, "Well, obviously Nutella is great." And I think, you know, it's even how we sometimes display public health information. We still have, you know, ultra-processed foods on that plate to say, I think it's like people would take what their perceived beliefs are from a plate, you know? We don't have this 10 lenses that we wear where we're like, "Oh, I'm going to put this lens on now to interpret this in a specific way." It's like our perceptions are our long-held beliefs. That's how we perceive the world. That's it's a projection of memory, you know. And I think that's what's so important about when it comes to nutrition, like that's why things that are really nostalgic, why we feel great when we have a nostalgic meal because it's like takes us back to something that we feel really safe. And so if we're growing up with beliefs of like, "This is really low calorie," or, you know, "Have these like breakfast biscuits in the morning because they're quick and on the go, but they're not nutritional benefits to them. They're quick." Or like now it's, you know, "Drink your lunch because we are too lazy to eat it." And like, I kind of look at that and I'm like, "What messages are we giving to people?" It's worrying. And like the same with carbs, like complex carbs are so important for your gut microbiome. And if the one thing we've learned in the last 10 to 20 years of nutritional science is your gut microbiome is essential for your immune health, for your mental health, for all parts of your health, so much that we don't even know yet. And the fiber is the most important part within that. And that's what complex carbs come from. And so like, we're not eating enough of that anyway, yet we're telling people to cut it.
Yeah. Like that is like, to me, it's worrying. It's like very dangerous messaging. And I, I get the whole like protein hype and have more protein, but like not to not cut something out. I never believe that we should cut. I believe we should always add. That's the most important. Add, not subtract. And I always say that when people are shopping, they're like, "What should I not put in my shopping basket?" And I'm like, "Can you add one new whole food to your basket each week?" That's what you're meant to do. Don't think about cutting. Add one new whole food. 'Cause then by the end of four weeks, you're going to have a diversity of four new whole foods within your diet that hasn't put pressure on you. You're not trying to overhaul your diet in one go. But each week, just add one new thing that you haven't cooked before.
I've got a really complex history relationship with food where you didn't like your boyish figure. I had the opposite where I didn't like that I had bigger hips and I was shorter and I had bigger thighs. I looked at my friends who were slim and I just wanted to be like them. And so I developed like quite a complex relationship with food and eating and my body when I was in maybe my second year of uni. That developed into quite bad binge eating. And I'm not a food psychologist or an eating disorder specialist at all, in the slightest. If those are issues anyone listening is going through, then I will leave resources, numbers in the description for you to get help. But it's really interesting you said about the attitude of adding rather than subtracting, because that was what really, really helped me in that situation. I was on a binge, restrict, binge, restrict, binge, restrict. And then I did have some therapy where I came to the realization to get rid of the binging, I need to first stop restricting. Took me a long, long, long time to stop binging. You know, I was extremely unhealthy in that time. It was,
binging on a lot of foods that did not make me feel good about myself. They were quite heavily processed foods. And I found it really, really, really difficult to hold to the truths at the same time. If I wanted to feel better in myself, I would have to eat more nutritious foods. But I felt that every time I tried to eat more nutritious foods, I slipped back into the restrict cycle. There was one, one day that really epitomized this addition mindset, which is, you know, what, what really, really helped me was I was craving corn chicken nuggets. So, I had my corn chicken nuggets in a little wrap, but then I made myself like this gorgeous salad on the side because I was saying, "I'm craving the corn chicken nuggets. I'm going to have the corn chicken nuggets, but I'm going to add a gorgeous, nourishing salad." Or if I was craving an almond croissant,
I would have my almond croissant. That was, you know, I was going to have it, but I would have, um, some apples on the side.
Nice. So, and slowly but surely, I recognized how the nutritious food made me feel, and I was able to find that balance in my relationship with food. But I, yeah, I'm so glad you, you said the the addition mindset, not the subtract mindset.
Do you know something that's really interesting? There's this really fascinating study by Ilia Crumb from Stanford. And this changed so much about how I saw food, right? So, we always see these foods and like, "Indulgent diet," right? And I'm sure you saw that when you were, you know, in your phase of of binge eating, where you were like, "I'm going to indulge in all of these things." So, she did this really interesting study where she gave two groups of participants a milkshake. And she said, "This is indulgent, and this is diet." And the indulgent, she said, had like 600 calories, and the, um, diet had 300 calories. And then afterwards, she measured their hunger hormone. And what she found is the ones that were in the indulgent milkshake, their hunger hormone rose, and they were full, and they were like, "Don't want to eat anymore." The ones that were in the diet one, their hunger hormone didn't rise, so they felt empty. The calories were exactly the same. They both had 380 calories in each shake. It was the perception of what they told the participants that changed their hunger levels. Nothing to do with the shake. Wow. So our beliefs about what we're eating, how we're eating, what we're doing is sometimes even more important than the food itself, right? So like what you're doing there, you're mixing. You're like, "I'm going to have this, but I'm also going to have this." And you're like, giving your brain like nourishment. You're telling your brain, "But I'm also going to nourish myself, so I'm also going to feel great." And slowly what you've done is you've changed your beliefs on like, "I'm not just going to go all in and feel crap about myself." The perception of like, actually, what we think we're consuming has way more of an effect on that kind of binge cycle than we actually realize. And I just find that mad. Like the fact that we can, you know, think, "Am I going to have the skinny hot chocolate or the full-fat hot chocolate?" And just from thinking that, whether it's a full-fat or skinny, our hunger hormone will rise and fall connected to what we're telling ourselves.
The idea that we're maybe depriving ourselves a little bit, that's really, really, really interesting.
Isn't that so interesting?
Sugar-free diets.
Ditch.
Bye-bye. This is so easy. It's so easy. Any, any added comments on why sugar-free diets? Absolutely not.
I mean, first of all, just think about the study that I just said. I mean, I'm not saying that sugar's great for you. Like, we all know that there is so much sugar in a lot of the, if we're not cooking healthy at home the whole time.
We know that whatever we're consuming is probably going to be packed with sugar 'cause it hits our dopamine receptors and it makes us feel great, but it also makes us crash. But this kind of like sugar-free trend that was really big about 10 years ago, there was all these books like "Sugar-Free Eating." What are you also substituting it with? Like this is what we also don't think about. And I think we need glue. We need. Well, it depends what, how we're looking at sugar, right? We're looking at sucrose, fructose, glucose. There's so many different types of sugar. Glucose is what literally gives our brain energy to function every single day. Like, we need glucose. If we're training, we need some type of glucose in our system or fructose. We need that. That's why having actually quick-release carbs, quick-release sugar is amazing if you're trying to train for a marathon because you need that to get off the start line. Not so great for sitting down for 8 hours. So, like everything's so dependent. But I think like removing anything is such a restrictive mindset, and we live in a world where like we shouldn't fully remove it. And when we're thinking about sugar-free diets, I bet you a lot of people don't think about alcohol.
Yes.
So alcohol is massively sugary, but like we tend to not think about that 'cause we're like, "Oh, this makes me feel like it's a liquid diet," but that's as instrumental to our glucose levels 'cause you've got no fiber in there. So that's also going to give you more of a hit. Thinking about like your fizzy drinks, like all of these things contain sugar. And so I think like, you know, so much about health, and the reason why these things don't get parity is because it's not a magic solution. Sugar, in a certain sense, can also give you a lot of joy. I would feel really sad if I couldn't ever go out and have a piece of birthday cake 'cause at the same time, that cake is giving me happiness, connection, like all of the things that are also so important for our health span, right? And so like, but when we're like completely, completely stripping things out and saying, "I'm completely sugar-free." Like, what does that mean? That you don't eat fruit? Like, fruit is also really nourishing, but it's got sugar in. And I think what's really interesting about sugar is people go, "Yeah, I know, but I'm going to make, you know, date brownies." And I'm like, "But that's still sugar." Like, your body doesn't go, "Oh, hang on a minute. Ding, ding. This is different sugar." It's biochemically the same. And so like when it goes into your body, whether it's maple syrup, whether it's a date, or whether it's white table sugar, your body registers it the same. Yes, you might have a little bit more nutrients from the date, but like, it's not that much different. Your glucose will still respond, your insulin, everything will still work in the same way. And so I think it's all about just having it in like smaller amounts, you know? It's not kind of having a dessert first without any other fiber in your stomach, but making sure you're balancing it. I say the way that people can be aware of sugar is just being a little bit more of like the food they're buying.
Like, what's in your shopping basket? 'Cause two-thirds of our shopping basket are sadly full of ultra-processed foods. So rather than thinking you've got to cut sugar, just thinking about like, "Well, how much do you think you include in your diet?" 'Cause I think that's just the unawareness piece that we don't talk about. But it's not that sugar is like toxic. It's not like sugar's really bad. Um, unless you are very heavily diabetic, then we do not want you to consume loads of sugar.
Yeah. But I think like this whole like sugar-free, like I don't think you can even live in this world being sugar-free.
No. No.
I don't, I mean, like, you'd be so lonely.
Yeah. I've, I've seen a lot of videos recently that's like, "I quit sugar for 30 days," and I was like, "I thought we moved on."
I'd love to see their diet. I'm like, "What is in their diet?" Yeah.
Like, what is in their diet? Are they consuming any fruit? Are they, like, I mean, even oats have sugar to a degree. Like, where are we, where are we drawing the line on sugar? Are we saying no refined sugar? So I'm just cutting out sweets and fizzy drinks. Like, great. I'm all on board for that. I'm all on board for like cutting out fizzy drinks and lots and lots of sweets. Like, brilliant. Like, turn towards more things like chocolate, dark chocolate, and, you know, the nuts and all of those things and dried fruits. Turn towards that. But I'd love to see someone's like, full sugar-free diet. And I'd also love to know how long they last. 'Cause we know from meta-analysis that diets do not last more than 12 months. People just regain their weight. It doesn't matter what diet they're on. And so, and also, if you take the tea off diet, you get dye. So I thought that's quite funny.
GLP-1s.
I'm nuanced here.
Good. No, I love, we love nuance here. We love nuance.
So GLP-1s. I think there is, it's one of the most amazing pharmaceutical inventions we've had in history. I think, um, we are in an obesity epidemic. I think we've got to look at this like, one, you can look at this from a public health lens. I know like it's getting rolled out now. I think it's like a £3,000 bonus GPs might be getting for giving these GLP-1s out. I, I saw that article about six weeks ago. Um, 'cause I spoke to Dr. Jack Monkley, who's just written a book on food, and I was brilliant if you want to know more about GLP-1s. But there's a certain subcategory of people that really, really struggle with their weight, and they have tried everything. And you think about gastric bands and all of these things, and these are where they can serve people really, really well. And if they can serve them with the right interventions, like the lifestyle interventions, so not just giving out GLP-1s, like making sure they're having enough protein, doing enough of their muscle mass training and weight training and resistance training, and actually changing their behavior with food whilst on it. Thing with GLP-1s is what we know now is that it's not just a 12-month quick fix. Like, most of these people are on it for life. It's a long-term thing. It's not a one-year intervention and then people go off, because we know that people regain 80% of people regain their weight 12 months after going off GLP-1. So then you go back on it. So then you kind of create this cycle, right? And then you kind of go into the "I don't have any willpower," and it's shame, and it's that horrible cycle that everyone connects to with dieting. So I think we have to be really aware of how we, how we do these. But, you know, this week I was in France at a conference, and there was, yeah, very smart cognitive scientists sat next to me saying, "I've been on GLP-1s, and it's changed my life." Like, it's genuinely changed my life. And there are these people where it has had massive benefits. And she was like, "It's even changed my mood. It's changed how I think about things, how I see things." So you hear these stories, and it's amazing. I've had other guys that have come to me, um, around GLP-1s where they've lost all their hair. They're like, "It's changed my life. I've lost all of my weight. I feel great, but I've gone bald because that's another effect." And then you see people that potentially don't need to be on GLP-1s, um, that can go from micro-dosing, and it can be, I mean, we don't even have evidence on what this is yet. I mean, people were talking about this anecdotally because there's like no research on healthy weight individuals using GLP-1s. So like, we don't know what that kind of sphere is here. But what we do know is that it's not fat loss. It's mostly muscle and mass that people, that people lose. And muscle mass is one of the biggest predictors for longevity and health span. So when we're looking at this, we're like, "Okay, so somebody of a healthier weight who isn't in this obese category that needs to have been struggling for years is going on these GLP-1s. They're getting their emaciated phase because they're losing all their all their muscles in their face. They're also losing all their muscle mass." Like, we, this isn't healthy. And then it's kind of, "Well, where does that end? Do they stay on that forever?" Like, so in this space, like it's not about getting like a beach body ready. It's not an aesthetic drug. It's none of that. Like that's actually really dangerous. Like these are really dangerous drugs and used in force. Like, I mean, there's not loads of deaths, but there have been deaths. Like pancreatic has been a big one. So we've got to be really careful on how we're labeling them. Because I interviewed David Kessler, who wrote a whole book about this two years ago. And I brought up the term micro-dosing GLP-1s because where I started hearing about it wasn't through academic papers. It was through celebrities and seeing them all over social media losing tons of weight. And I'm like, "Huh, they lost a lot of weight. What's going on there?" And that's where this, you know, when Kim Kardashian, people were using these, and I was like, "Wow, it's interesting because it's gone from celeb focus as opposed to like the medical side where I think a lot of doctors were hearing about it." And I think the social messaging around GLP-1s hasn't been the best. And that's why I think doctors are so normally pro it because they see such amazing changes in patients that really do need to go on this, right? But I think on the social side of things, people see the celebrity image and see people micro-dosing and losing weight. And that's where I think it gets really worrying. And when I brought this up to David Kessler, he was like, "What do you mean micro-dosing?" And I was like, "No, this is people are, know this is a thing." And he was like, "Don't be so stupid," and like completely shut me down. And I was like, "Well, I know people in my social circles that are doing this, like it's a thing." And even when I was at the conference yesterday, you know, one guy was like, "Yeah, half of the Upper East Side in New Yorker on GLP-1s." And I'm like, "This is the thing that we're not talking about." And so I think, you know, I think we just, there's a lot of nuance in this area. There's a lot we don't know, but we also know like this being massively also connected to like longevity and like loads of other things. And I think with things with, you know, this is a peptide, like peptide is booming right now, the peptide industry. Sadly, it's very unregulated and it's very scary. BPC-157, I think it is, is probably the one that's got the most research, but still not enough. And people are getting these online from China, shooting themselves with peptides and a longevity pack. And GLP-1 is one of those, one of the peptides, right? That people talk about, most researched peptide at least, but it's still within this peptide category. And I am terrified about this whole set of peptides that is just going completely awol right now on the internet, and that is what worries me because we're seeing again this like subset of people, young people, that are, we don't know what their effects are going to be. You know, I think about, you know, TRT, T that makes men infertile.
You've hit on some really, really important points. At the, the point about the disconnect between the scientific community and what is actually going on in the general population. And this is why I thank my lucky stars every single day that I am like the only doctor in my friendship group, the only even woman in STEM in my friendship group, because they will come to me with things that my algorithm would never serve me because I'm not susceptible to that.
Yeah. So a lot of my friendship group
are on GLP-1s. Yeah.
You know, not all of them should be on GLP-1s. Not all of them have them prescribed legally. Yeah. You know, as in, I, I am against this just to protect my license. I am very much against this. And even as a friend who's a doctor, telling them, look, you, please don't do that. They are still taking them. Fact that we don't have data on their use in healthy individuals yet, that is a reality is shocking. There was a systematic review recently that came out, and it was saying, well, you know, semaglutide actually doesn't cause muscle wasting, but actually, I think the conclusion was that it, it wasn't as meaningful as made out to be. The claims were exaggerated. The concerns about, um, muscle wastage were exaggerated, but the data was done in people who were using it for its correct reasons, not for people of a healthy weight.
Yeah. The whole peptides thing. I remember the first time someone asked me. They said, "So, what do you think about the peptides thing?" This was maybe a year ago. And I was like, "What do you mean?" Like, "What, what do you mean?" And they said, "Oh, you know, like the peptides people are injecting, like it's going huge at the moment on social media." And I was like, "I've literally not seen this at all." And they were asking for like doctors. No, it was a UK person, but they was like, "Oh, well, maybe it's just like the gym bro side of TikTok." And I was like, "Yeah." I was like, "I have no idea. Like, absolutely no idea. I don't know what you're talking about. Peptides is a very broad scientific." What do you mean? Um, and then now it's starting to come out. I know Miles from Made in Chelsea came out and did an ad for peptides. All of them were completely unregulated, unresearched. He's injecting them into his body, and he is being paid to promote that.
Where does moral ethics lie in all of this? Are you allowed to promote injecting yourself on the internet? Is that not, does that not come under some sort of ASA guidelines for like,
when I think about injecting, I just think about diabetics that are trying to regulate their insulin levels. Do you know what I mean? And I think like,
injecting a supplement is wild.
It's wild.
How, how have we come to this?
I know. But this is the thing, I think, and this, you know, when I'm saying like America always feels like five years ahead. I've spent a lot of time over there. I do a lot of podcasts over there. I used to live there. I have a lot of friends there. At one point, I nearly moved there. And I go there sometimes and I'm like, "Wow, I'm really far behind. Like, what's going on?" And you hear all of this longevity stuff that's coming up. And I really struggle with the word, and you've probably noticed I've said health span more than longevity because I struggle with the word longevity now. And it really makes me sad 'cause it is actually a scientific term. And sometimes I go to these conferences and they're longevity conferences by really good doctors, but it's now being kind of traded as this like bro thing.
Um, which I've struggled with because I'm like, "Oh, it is actually it." But now I've got to use the word health span because I feel like that feels less trendy.
Yeah.
But I feel like when I go there, there's all of these things cropping up, and then it starts trickling to the UK. And over there, they're so far ahead of the stuff. Wildfire over there, like stuff, and it's so unregulated. Everything is so unregulated, and people are paying hundreds of thousands for so many different things that are not regulated. The thing that worries me is what I said at the beginning, like people genuinely want to feel better.
People are genuinely trying to find stuff to feel better. That's people's ultimate goal. But there's like half of it snake oil. If I didn't have a scientific background, I would struggle so much in this landscape.
I still struggle with a scientific background.
I'm like, "Wait, is this good?" You know, 'cause I'm intrigued 'cause I'm, I'm really interested in health, you know? It's not like I'm want to be against all of these things 'cause some of these things can work. Like, there are some things that are can be really beneficial, but I think sometimes like there's just so much. There is so much, and then we just get overwhelmed.
Yeah. Even I don't have time to research them all. I'm making.
Healthy shouldn't be this hard. That is honestly the, I, I honestly think it's an intentional choice to make all health information so confusing because then it ultimately serves as a barrier to being healthy. And hence the book title that we will, we will come on to.
Guess how much the wellness industry is predicted to be by next year, 2027?
Surely, like 7 trillion, or am I?
$8.5 trillion?
I'm sorry. Can we just get our head around how much that is?
That's.
Now, you think about business.
We've got to talk about business because that's the entire point of like how an economy runs, right?
It's a marketing machine.
There is so much out there that people can use this. There's so much money to be made. And so I think that's where the disparity comes in. I think that's when like the critical thinking needs to come in. And like, I am not saying like none of these things can ever work. Like, in the right context, they can, and for different people, but I think like this one-size-fits-all solution that we think that we, I don't know, we're never going to age. Like that is part of life.
Let me die at 80. Like, I'd love to have a long, healthy life.
Good life, and then just pop. That's what makes life so beautiful, the finality of it. Anyway, I'm going to get off on a big old tangent. Um, final buy or bye-bye is.
Counting out.
Do you know what? I think that was a full house. That was bye-bye to every single one. And it was actually so quick.
From the tangents. Um, I'm going to have to get in some community questions. How to get over emotional eating? I always feel like a sadness when someone writes this to me because I, I can feel like the pain of that type of question, which I think is really important to honor. I think sometimes people listen to other people speak and it just sounds so bloody easy. It's not easy. Emotional eating isn't about food. It's so much about so much more within that person and the struggles that person's going through, how they see themselves. There's not a formula right here that I can give and say if you do this, this, and this, you won't totally get over your emotional eating. Just doesn't. It's just not how it is.
And I think the first thing I would say is like, reach out for help. Like that's the number one thing. Like, so the biggest acknowledgement is that they've written about it. They've acknowledged it. A lot of people with emotional eating, there's so much shame that goes with it. The lack of acknowledgement is so easy to like go, "No, I don't want to look at that because I don't want to look at myself." That's a big part of it, right? So one, this person's acknowledged it. Incredible, massive courage, massive bravery. Second is like, find help. Find help. And what does your emotional eating look like? What type of emotional eating are you struggling with first of all? Because eating disorders, there is a whole spectrum and it can be from obesity all the way down to anorexia nervosa. And anorexia nervosa is actually very small at the end. There's like a whole range. There's like night eating disorder, there's like bulimia, there's binge eating, there's so, the orthorexia. There's so many different types of eating disorders. I also believe to a fundamental level that we all have a connection to an eating disorder at some point. And that isn't an extreme eating disorder. That is something where we've all overthought something about food, had a connection to it, has an emotional experience. It is an emotional experience. So I like, really want to validate this person. I really want to say, get professional help. That's so important. Potentially possibly from a very good therapist as well, who can help.
Self-worth and self-compassion are going to be your two best friends in this. So self-worth is one thing to kind of look at how do you see yourself? And how I see you build self-worth is with self-compassion. And so something that's so important is that we could normally do this from a place that we hate ourselves, right? I'm sure you'll relate to this, right? When you were doing and you probably like didn't like yourself very much. And self-compassion is so important through any type of emotional eating to like, give yourself some [ __ ] grace. Like, be kind to yourself. Like that is so underestimated and it's so overlooked. This isn't like going to be an easier journey. Anything that when you're battling with anything is never an easy journey, right? But like being kind to yourself during it makes it a little bit less harder. And self-compassion is like, well, I got to love myself. We're not talking American version of like, "Go and look in the mirror and tell yourself you're amazing." Like, it's not that. Self-compassion is being fair to yourself. Be nice. Like, if you're listening to this and you just heard Fay's story, would you tell her? What would you tell Fay when she was battling? Would you say like, "Christ, what's wrong with you? Why can't you do this? Like, look at everyone else. They're doing it, Fay. Why can't you? What's your problem?" Like, you would not say that to yourself. >> No. >> But that's what this voice is going to be saying inside this person's head. And so self-compassion is like, "Do you know what? I'm really struggling with this right now. Like, this is tough. Like, this is really tough. And like, I'm going to find the right support. I'm going to find the right therapist. Like, I'm going to really look after myself." And I try and think about it as like, think about it as a child. Like, you're that child. Like, what love do you want to give to that child that inside is like, really struggling? And we all have them. And I think normalizing this is really important. So I use this technique called NNN technique. The name: normalize, nurture, naming. Like, what is it? Okay, I'm really struggling with emotional eating right now. Or like, I'm really struggling with X. Normalize it. Okay. So, "Wow, I just heard this podcast and Fay just spoke about her, her relationship to food. Oh my god. Okay, not the only one. Okay, this is like a, this is I'm not alone in this. Um, wow, she's read my question out. That's like, oh my god, there's acknowledgement there. Okay, this is a thing. This obviously is a thing she's read out because there must be loads of people struggling with this then. If there's just one person in the world, she's not going to pick my question. Okay, so I'm like, not on my own here. Like, it's part of like what other people are going through." And then like, nurture. Nurture that feeling. Give yourself compassion and grace in that moment because this gives you the courage and the steps to like, tackle that solution, right? The problem that you're really trying to grasp. If you're just telling yourself that you're crap the whole time and that you're a failure, like that's not going to get you to the next step. That's not going to get you to pick up the phone or pick up an email to a therapist or maybe look in the show notes and be like, "Oh, you know, where did Fay put all those resources?" Like, they're the first steps. And I think that's really important.
The second thing I would say is like, look at like how your relationship with this food. Like keeping food diaries can be really helpful when you go and see someone because I think we all have a bias that when we try and like relate back to what we're actually consuming, we can do it with like our own biases on, 'cause that's just the way that we are. And if I asked you to recall what you had yesterday, you probably tell me 50% of what's right and 50% you'd forget. >> And or 5% you might be ashamed of, so you don't want to tell me. So I think having that understanding as well is really, really important because we can also see ourselves through one lens. But I think the biggest part of this is being kind on yourself and like doing the add not subtract thing is a really helpful thing. Like trying to create, it depends. I don't know what this is, emotional. I don't know if it's too much control or less control, so it's really hard to give prescription. But I think like trying to make sure that you can think of food as nourishment as well is so essential. I think a lot of us, and we, we spoke about restriction on the show. A lot of us don't look at food as like fueling our hair, fueling our skin, fueling our energy, fueling our mood. Like food is so important for our mental health. And you know, a lot of emotional eating is connected to our mental health. Like we got to support it during this time. So these are like the key things that I would say to like get you on that road to to making sure you're getting help from the right person.
We're going to come on to neurodivergence and eating to support your neurodivergence. So how has understanding neurodiversity changed the way you think about the relationship between what we eat and how our brains work? And also >> I have ADHD. >> So I do indeed. So is there anything people with ADHD should be eating or avoiding eating? Yeah. >> So I got really interested in this. So I didn't know I had ADHD until last year, which was quite interesting. Um, so I knew I had dyslexia in my early 20s, but they didn't test me for ADHD. And then I was on a podcast and someone was like, "Yo, was on this Bloomberg podcast." And afterwards, they called me and they were like, "We're doing this show on ADHD and we really want you to come on." And I was like, "Okay, what? Talk about it from a nutritional perspective." They like, "No, cuz you got ADHD." I was like, "No, I don't." I was like, "Don't diagnose me. No, I don't." And they were like, "You, you definitely from what you've done in your life, you've definitely got ADHD." And I was like, "What do you..." I take it as a massive insult. And they were like, "Would you mind if we took you to a psychiatrist and you did the tests to see?" And I'm like, "I'm not paying all this money to be told something that I'm being diagnosed with." And I was very like, they like, "We kind of can't be part of the show." So I was like, "Okay, I'll do it." Anyway, definitely have ADHD. Um, and I was like, "Wow, I did not think that I'd had ADHD." But the reason that I didn't have as much grief this time as when I did when I found out when I was 23 is because when I was studying nutritional science, I remember being in a in a lecture and I remember them talking about the brain and I remember them saying 50% of the brain is made up of this component of long-chain fatty acids. It's actually just over 50% of omega-3. EPA is one part, but DHA is the main primary component. So over 50% is up DHA. And I'm like, "What the hell is DHA?" And that is found mostly in fatty fish because they eat all the algae and that's where they get their omega-3 from. So it's only really in fatty fish. You get shorter chains and these are in like your walnuts and your things, but the conversion down to DHA is very, very short. So you've got to be eating like one to two portions of oily fish a week. Then I started become more obsessed with it and I was like, "Well, I wonder what happens if you're dyslexic and I wonder what this happens." And there was this amazing scientist at Oxford University, Alex Richardson, who was really interested in neurodiversity. And so I was obviously like, went to all of her seminars and followed everything that she did. And I did my dissertation on dyslexia, ADHD, dyspraxia, um, and all your different types of neurodiversity with omega-3 fatty acids. And for me, I was like, "I wonder if having more oily fish," 'cause at this point, I didn't like oily fish. You know, I don't like oily fish either. >> Yeah, keep going. >> So, would make an impact. And I remember her saying this study. She was like, "Yeah, there was these seven-year-olds that really struggled in their reading abilities." And I can't remember because this was so long ago, but after so many weeks, it was like, other weeks or months of having just fish, they didn't just improve their reading age, they overcame other peers who didn't have dyslexia with their chronological reading age. And I'm like, "What? What? Huh?" So I'm like, "I think I need to start eating fish." >> Yeah. >> So I then start looking more into research. And obviously when you start looking into research, you go to a bit of a black hole and you're going, "Well, is it supplements? Is it fish?" And kind of what I ended up is is that supplements because they all vary in their strengths and it's, and we'll talk about what to look for in supplements. It was very inconclusive, but if you did eat two portions of oily fish a week, it could really benefit your things like ADHD and dyslexia. And I was like, "Wow, that's so important." Because obviously if you're not getting essential fatty acids to your brain, your body is amazingly clever and it will just take other fats like cholesterol that's way more rigid and like use it in the brain. And so it's really important that we are consuming oily fish. And so I was like, "Well, that's really fascinating." So I then started including more fish within my diet. But what we also know about oily fish is it's not just really important for our cell membranes. It also has massive anti-inflammatory effects, which is where the EPA comes in. So, oily fish is one thing that I would say is really, really important if you're neurodiverse to include in your diet. Now, if you don't like fish, like you, looking at an omega-3 supplement is really important. So, one, if you're vegan or vegetarian, you won't be having a fish supplement, but you can have algae. So, I would say looking at a a supplement that has good DHA and EPA and potentially maybe more DHA because that's the brain component. When you look at supplements, it is so important to see what percentage of DHA and EPA is in there. They can range from 20% to 30% all the way up to 90%. And the others can have bulking agents. Do not buy a supplement that has omega-6 and omega-9 within it because it completely drowns out the omega-3. We have an abundance of omega-6 and omega-9 in our diet. An abundance. It's so far out of the ratio of omega-3 because it actually shares the same pathway and omega-6 is so much more dominant in our diets that it, that's why it drowns the conversion from the shorter chain omega-3 fatty acids to the longer ones. So that's why the nuts and the chia seeds and all those things that high in omega-3 that the shorter chain struggle with that longer conversion. So that's why we've got to consume the fatty fish. So have an algae supplement if you are a vegan or vegetarian. And if you just don't like fish, because a lot of people don't, then have a really good source of omega-3, and just check that it's got mostly DHA and EPA and no omega-6 and omega-9. So, that's kind of my one thing that I would say. And trying to reduce things like alcohol is really important if you, if you have ADHD. Too much like quick high sugar foods. Eating regularly to sustain energy levels is really, really important. The basics are really important for ADHD as well. And I also say this from like personal experience. Like, I know if I miss like a meal, that my ADHD feels like it's worse. Like, I'm not getting the right glucose to my brain. I know that if I'm eating too much like sugary fast foods, that that also affects my concentration levels. Like, we know this. This is like, we see this in children, right? If we give them like sugary cereals and send them off to school, their concentration isn't as great. And we struggle more like that with ADHD. We can get hyperfocused, >> but we can also really struggle with things. And so like having good proper nutrition is essential. It also really helps with your sleep. >> Yeah. >> Like having good protein foods is also really helpful to help you sleep as well. And they always say if you can't sleep, I was speaking to a cognitive scientist today and she was like, if you're struggling to sleep, having your essential amino acids before you go to bed, like quinoa or an egg or cottage cheese is also really good at helping settle the mind and the brain. So, also thinking about a lot of people say don't eat before you go to bed, but actually if you're really struggling, your brain is not turning off, having some good protein, like going to the fridge and even eating that can also really help with settling the mind.
That's so interesting. Sarah, we've got the last question that we've been asking all our guests and that is, Sarah, what do you wish every woman knew by the time she was 25? It's a big one. Oh my gosh, such a pivotal age. Well, I wanted to originally say healthy shouldn't be this hard, 'cause it's a plug for my book, but >> you can plug your book. >> Um, but because I do believe that like, I do think we go on this, especially as women, like, I think we go on this like whole thing on like needing to be this idealized person yourself. I would say what I wish by the time people got to their 25s is that they really understood their strengths and not their weaknesses. And I think the more that you can understand what your strengths are and the less on your weaknesses. I think when we're young, we always try and cover up what we're not good at and we put too much energy into perfecting our weaknesses and we put less time into knowing what our strengths are. And I think that comes later because you become a bit wiser and you become a bit more confident and you have more life experience. But I think I wish if I didn't spend so much time trying to hide my weaknesses and putting energy into that, I would have had much less kind of worry in my mind. And so I'd say like, I wish people focus more on their strengths and less on their weaknesses. >> I love that and I, I completely agree, especially as women. >> Yeah. >> Thank you so so so much for coming on the podcast. You have been absolutely wonderful and we will leave the link for your book in the description, but also listeners should be able to win a copy of your book and I will leave the instructions for that in the description as well. So >> amazing. >> Thank you so so so much. >> Thank you for having me.