"Non mi sembra possa diventare una startup" | Ascensore EP.1

When I see more investments in marketing than in tech, I get scared. >> I want to see [music] the big dream, then you tell me this is how I get there because >> in my opinion, they were too frilly because they know what the market problems are, they are not talking about them. >> It doesn't seem to me that it can become a startup. >> I really can't understand how you can have this algorithm that is the absolute best. I don't >> I don't recommend it to you, honestly. >> In fact, he is actually stronger than him. >> You can't argue. Excuse me. >> In my opinion, you need to listen to feedback a little more. >> Menumal [music] or menium mal. Thank goodness. >> Thank goodness. Ah, thank goodness. Thank goodness. [music] [music] Hello everyone and welcome to this new episode of Ascensore, the format dedicated to startups where we blast them, maybe invest in them, who knows. Today we have fantastic guests with us. I'll introduce them one by one. The first one you know, he's Mister Rip. Creator. He's not an entrepreneur, actually, he's the one who critiques these startups, he's a professional skeptic, we can say, ex-Google, personal finance expert, and much more. Playboy philanthropist. Okay, we have Alberto Dalmasso, founder of Satispay, who perhaps needs no introduction, interviewed by both me and Mister Rip, so go and watch those interviews, and you founded a unicorn, so your opinion on upcoming startups is very interesting to us. Then we have Rene Mingozzi, a regular guest on the Ascensore format and Italian Funders Fund, you know her perfectly by now. And then Tommaso Di Stefano is a bit of the dark horse, the dark horse of Ascensore, the man who pulls the strings behind the scenes and also in front of the scenes, as you can see in flesh and blood. >> How do you feel? >> Energized, so very agitated. >> What are you afraid of? >> First of all, that RIP will tear me apart because the first time he wrote to me, I didn't reply for 7 days, and above all, that the message doesn't reach the gut of the judges. >> Ideal scenario. >> Ideal scenario is that everyone at the end of my pitch opens a pension fund and then invests in Elsa. How much money are you looking for? [music] >> 3 million. >> Without further ado, I wanted to introduce the first startup. Elsa, you'll have 5 minutes to make your pitch, after which you'll be brutally judged. Super, >> let's start. >> Let's play a game together. Close your eyes and imagine waking up tomorrow morning in retirement. You can finally do whatever you want, dedicate yourself to your passions, eliminate every work app from your phone. There's just one small detail. After a lifetime of work, you'll find yourself earning half of what you did the day before. This is how retirement works in Italy. we will retire on 50% of our last salary. And the most absurd thing is that most people don't know it and do nothing to improve the situation. In Italy, two out of three people do not have a pension fund, and to be honest, until recently, I didn't understand anything about it either. March 2020, I decided to leave my job in legal consulting to dedicate myself to my pension, financial consulting. And it's here that I discover that I understood nothing about personal finance. My first lesson in financial education was given to me by a letter from the Tax Agency asking me for €1000 on my TFR. TFR, that thing that on the first day of work I had called my mom who had told me "Leave it with the company, it will be safer," while the insurance agent advised me "Move it to a pension fund, it's more convenient." But he couldn't explain why. Who would you have trusted? Your mom or the insurance agent? Fortunately, in my new job, my new boss Marco was an expert in pension funds, but above all in the art of explaining things simply. And thanks to him, I discovered that with pension funds you can save a lot of money and taxes, get extra money from your employer, and build a more solid financial future. From then on, I became passionate, or perhaps obsessed, with this topic because I think it's madness that nobody knows about it, and even more madness that nobody acts. But from this frustration, in 2023, Marco and I leave our jobs and found Elsa. a company that aims to democratize supplementary pensions. We explain difficult things easily, we help people understand and act. And today we are the first Pensiontech in Italy with the first digital comparison and subscription platform for pension funds, with which we help people understand intelligently for their future and above all to choose their pension fund online. We've said it, the scenario is that we will retire on half of our last salary. We will reach less than half by 2040. In 2035, pension spending as a percentage of GDP will reach its peak at 18%. Amidst all this, Italy and Europe have allocated many incentives, for over 20 years now, to supplementary pensions. They incentivize you to put TFR money into a pension fund, a financial instrument. Nevertheless, two out of three people do not have a pension fund. Who are we talking about? We are talking about 24 million workers in Italy alone, with a total potential savings of 75 billion euros per year, of which only 32 billion is TFR. These people are 14 million without a pension fund who should open one. 10 million have one, but perhaps it's not the best choice for them. And amidst all this, the problem is not the lack of product, the problem is the lack of clarity, trust, and digital experience. We are here to solve this problem. We launched our platform in 2024, which ranks all pension funds in Italy for the user in a personalized way, analyzing and systematizing official data, costs, and returns to provide the worker with the best solution for their situation. Not only can you understand which is the best fund for you, you can finally open it online without it being an obstacle course. From this, our business model derives quite naturally. How do we make money? We are a broker, the platform is totally free for the user, and we make money because pension funds recognize us a one-time fee upon opening the pension fund and a recurring commission on assets under management, and this clearly makes this model scalable and sustainable over time. The platform was launched at the end of 2024, and to date, we have 170,000 unique visitors, the first 5,000 pension funds opened online with the first 15 million euros of assets under management collected. All this with 70% of visits coming from totally unpaid channels. For this reason, we are raising 3 million euros, half of which will be allocated to product and technology, an important part to growth and therefore to increasing acquired positions and implementing partnerships, and a small part, obviously, also to stabilizing current processes and operations, but the goal is to transform this attraction into scale, to become from the most recognized brand in the sector to the true marketer, but not thinking that people should all open a pension fund tomorrow. What our dream is is that everyone wakes up tomorrow and says: "I need to inform myself, I need to understand, I need to act." Because if we close our eyes again and wake up in retirement, but we have planned things well, then our retirement will be up to our last salary, and above all, nobody likes giving money to the Tax Agency. >> Perfect, precise. >> Ha ha, the pitch is finished at 00:00. Okay, from now on, 20 minutes to ask questions and therefore Q&A and clarify things that were not clear to you during the pitch. >> So, I'll start if possible. No, besides asking for 3 million for for what? For, I mean, for what percentage, I mean, at what valuation is it available? >> So, uh, we are raising 3 million with the ambition of diluting by 20%, so pre-money of 12, post-money of 15. Um, we have also already raised about 1 million euros since we were founded, plus we received Smart and Start. The need for funds is linked to the type of growth we need to achieve, to the number of positions we need to acquire to be able to become profitable within 2-3 years. Um, and so this, you know, is the reason, as I said, technology, product first and foremost, and continuing to acquire, stabilize partnerships. The second question was related to you mentioned unique visitors, not per month, per day, per year, those data on current retention. >> We are now around 400,000 per month. Okay. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Website visits. Those are the unique users who have compared. >> Okay. Okay. >> So, the need is very clear, market need, big, very big opportunity. Um, it's not entirely clear to me how you interact with the end customers. Do they simply go to your website, find the comparisons, do they have other ways to interact with you to be guided in their choice? >> Let me clarify that Marco and I, the two co-founders, were insurance consultants, so every time we managed to get someone to open a pension fund, it took us two hours, but it was always the same story. So, uh, our approach, the way we started, the goal was to scale that thing because it was truly something that was the same for everyone. So from the start, we began to disseminate a lot on social media. You'll find a blog on our website that publishes three articles a week on pensions. You would never have believed that it's possible to write so much, but it's true. From day zero, we do three or four free webinars a week for users online, and then we also go to companies. So a very important part is talking to workers. It's something that happened to us initially in a completely natural way, meaning companies came to us because finally there was someone, forgive the term, with a different shirt explaining the difference between TFR in the company and a pension fund. And there, incidentally, a very interesting parenthesis opened up because we discovered that even companies don't know how opportune it is for them that people not only choose the best, because obviously there's also a matter of personal brand and, excuse me, employer branding, of retaining people, and therefore how important it is to give people the tools to choose, but also a matter of, um, of having, as it were, an independent player who would explain things easily to people. >> Do you monetize this channel with companies? >> Yes, yes, yes, we monetize it. >> How? >> At the moment, consider that from this, so, from this January, we hired a person who is specifically responsible for that, um, that channel, and until last year, dozens of companies arrived, with an average ticket of €900,000, for a webinar in a company. Lastly, if I'm not mistaken, there's a bit of movement, also regulatory, so it's possible that we're actually in excellent timing for an acceleration of interest and funds in the world of pension funds. >> Absolutely, there have already been two budget laws that have given great attention to the world of supplementary pensions. The issue is [clears throat] precisely that the pension house, the first pillar, INPS, is not enough on its own. The other two pillars are precisely supplementary pensions, pension funds, and therefore this instrument that has existed for a long time, it has existed since the 90s, then the last serious regulation was in 2005, it can truly be the way to solve Italy's financial future, to ensure that people still have money in their pockets to spend, because the state is interested in this. So finally, attention has been drawn to this instrument. Now they are talking about something that scares us a lot, which is automatic enrollment in pension funds, what was once called silent consent was 6 months. If you were an employee, you had that form in your hand like me. If you didn't decide within 6 months, they would put you in a category fund by force. Today it's two months, and they've changed the name, automatic enrollment. This, in my opinion, is a signal. You automatically find yourself in a pension fund. It scares us because on one hand it's good because it incentivizes pension funds. I am a huge fan of pension funds. On the other hand, however, beware of people who don't know where they are and perhaps reject something that would be good for them out of distrust, because everything revolves around distrust, and therefore, um, that's why we think we are in the right place at the right time, because we accompany people to awareness before action. >> Thank you. So, my first question is about your traction. Earlier you mentioned about 5,000, and 15 million in assets, right? of assets under management. What does this mean for you? I mean, how much is your take per policy or tell me, what is, you know, the benchmark, and what are your revenue streams? I understood, also from the training, but what are the revenue streams you are thinking about? >> So, regarding pension fund positions, I'll go into more detail about the business model, so opening a pension fund, the fund is opened, the client pays, puts in money, and on that money, we receive a one-time fee initially, and this varies depending on the partnership. We, of course, would like everyone to pay us equally one day, but today that's not the case, we say it completely transparently. Um, consider from 50 to €150, so quite variable. After that, the fee on assets under management is a few tens of basis points, but in the immediate term, what generates cash for me is the one-time fee, obviously, while over time this creates a cumulative position, clearly, so 15 million in assets today is a lot for us, but it's nothing compared to what it can be, because last year it was 13 million, those 13 million from last year are already 26 million this year, plus add the new acquisition, so it won't be 13 million, it will be more than 13 million because this year we will acquire double, so another 25 million, and you understand how from 13 it practically quadruples in the blink of an eye. This means that even a small recurring fee on managed assets gives us a lifetime value. Going concretely, how much is a user worth to me? First of all, I spoke of workers, remember that in reality, all citizens can open a pension fund, we are starting to have a significant percentage of children. Why am I saying this? Because parents, as soon as they understand, open a pension fund for their child, but that's a customer for life, they truly have a very long time horizon ahead of them. But let's consider an average horizon, 15 years, the lifetime value can reach €100-€1000 depending. Clearly, as long as you are, hello Elsa, and you compare, and we will always do it, and I put my face on it, the pension fund that based on your situation shows you the one with the best cost-to-return ratio. It's evident that you've already anticipated the question, the first in the ranking is the one that pays us the least, but it's precisely for this reason >> and I was about to make a point about it myself, in Switzerland there are many of these comparison sites, they are very popular, I mean comparis. There are many price and service comparison sites, and over time they become evil, the classic "and shittification" because because in the end, those who don't do the affiliation don't appear, and those who are at the top are those who have paid the most. How can you, how can you avoid this? >> Well, first of all, people don't open them because I see that people are very careful. At the beginning, certainly, we had the first ones, I think >> probably the early adopters are the smartest ones, right? Then the other 14 million will come, my grandmother who understands nothing will come. >> Exactly. We solve it by putting, first of all, I repeat, I put my face on it. We will, if there is anything sponsored, it will be written, obviously, completely transparently, about being transparent, about how we get money. Our advantage is that even with fees, the market fees, the system is sustainable, and so this is our advantage. On the other hand, what could I? I ask myself the question. The risk I see is that afterwards you can't sell the others, you only sell the good ones. This could be the risk, but I show them all. The authority allows me because we are in a very regulated market, there is IVASS and there is COVIP, so insurance and pension funds, we are supervised. You have to say how you compare them. >> But now that I think about it, if we talk about 75 billion potential, not even current, assets under management in the TFR world, this means that at most you make 75 million a year in fees on those assets, right? Um, which, however, is a good start, but still very little. Yes, yes. The maximum final target seems a bit low potentially in terms of monetization. So, how do you plan to expand your market? You talked about life insurance policies, but are there other components? >> Then, yes, an important thing is the need for personal protection, which is already within pensions, when I was building the house, you give because INPS will give little, we give them money and INPS is like an insurance. You give them money and INPS gives you something back in terms of pension and it gives you less than half of your last salary, and in terms of protection, that's not enough. And the beauty, precisely, of the vertical we are in is that, precisely, being brokers, being in that world, we can easily distribute that type of solution which often arises natively within the pension fund. So the 5,000 positions I have now, if they wanted to, they could easily activate them, some do, obviously, they do it completely autonomously. Um, another interesting thing is financial management, meaning we've discovered from these first clients that people are willing to pay amounts like 20-30 a year for something called life cycle, which is that the pension fund automatically manages your money. In reality, they do a switch around 45 years old, a switch at 55, so equity balanced, guaranteed bond. Okay, it's crazy, meaning no, I shouldn't say it, you know, but I understand, meaning they don't want to think about it, they do it, they never think about it again and they pay this money. Rather, and this is one of the things we plan to help people with, and this is the product work we need to do, is to make them realize, now there's market turmoil, in Veneto we say you have to "stoppare" the bottle of prosecco and pour the money into the pension fund. So this type of action, >> but how complicated is it to create your own pension fund? [laughter] >> Tricky question, eh. So, if you ask me what the dream is, it could be to have the Revolut of pension funds and be the first European digital pension fund. The regulation exists. I don't think we're at that point yet. I think we could get there. Do you tell me I lose independence? Yes and no. I don't remove the comparator. It could absolutely make sense. I think it's too premature to talk about it. I would love it. >> But it can be done at a European level. >> Yes. >> Okay. Can you tell us something? >> Yes. Today TFR doesn't go there. Today, the R doesn't go there. >> Regarding the team, since we have very little time left. The team, you two founders, we understood, and then >> Yes, so we are now about fifteen people gradually. >> And what do you do? >> Uh, so I >> these 15 people how >> ah, then we have three marketing people, uh, three tech product people, then we have one person dedicated to welfare partnerships, B2B, insurance companies. If a huge amount of training requests were to arrive, how would you satisfy them? Could you also do a marketplace and have them talk to planners, independent consultants? >> So, we are enabled for everything, we are both brokers and independent consultants. At the time, before knowing the business model, we got all the certifications, and if it were to arrive, in reality, we have a very defined plan for the consulting part, we know how it's done, it's a sales funnel, I don't even talk about it because it's there, it creates brand, and it also helps us stay updated, to have cash flow because it's needed, you know, it helped a lot last year since the first years are the ones where you have more difficulty collecting commission parts from the funds. You are asking for 3 million, of which 1.5 for tech product and now three people. What's the plan? What do you do with 1.5 million to improve the tech product? Not all the time. [laughter] >> 30 seconds. >> So, first thing, we don't even have an area, I'll give you a shopping list, in reality, there's a roadmap, and we don't even have a personal area, we don't have full integrations with the companies yet, the operations are not yet, we need to scale the operations, that's the fundamental thing. Ah, I forgot the operations team, which is fundamental. That's where those four who were missing were. [laughter] >> As the anxiety increases, they are coming out, I'm also helping them in this period because we're going crazy. That team must remain as it is. The operations below must scale. Here, then, product today we compare like this, pumicovip, we don't truly help the user understand. So this is the product and technology part. So the tech team needs to double, the operations team needs to stay the same. This is the goal. >> So you need 10 million. No >> Exactly. Exactly. [laughter] >> To make the pension fund, yes. To make our pension fund, it would take 10 million. >> All integrations. Still >> last question. How many people, instead of calling you Anna, call you Elsa? Ah, even the children, the parents of the children at kindergarten, I mean, I go in with my daughter and they say "Hi Elsa, I'm already, bye, I say goodbye." >> The brand works perfectly. >> Well, Anna and Elsa from Frozen. >> Yes, exactly. >> Okay, we now have 5 minutes, so practically 1 minute and 25 seconds each to give the final feedback. >> The idea is very appealing, there's a lot of need, I like the solution. What a little scares me is obviously the set of incentives, I fear, I'm old enough to have seen companies that I've been interested in, passionate about, then get sold, bought by some evil entity that transforms them into evil things, and I believe that the incentives to become evil are there. Eh, Anna is fantastic, she put her face to it, she created it, you see the founder's heart in it, but the product could become evil on its own without Anna's will. RIP, you invest, so then you prevent any type of acquisition. [laughter] >> Make me a shareholder agreement. Too much money. I need it for my pension. Eh, the image of retiring has captured me, also because my name is "pension in progress," so, eh, no, okay, my fear is only about the reverse incentive, taking money from pension funds doesn't thrill me. I would develop the B2B side more, for example, trying to make agreements with companies that can give you not only consulting and webinars, but something that they can, I don't know, find agreements with large companies and therefore do their department on how to help employees go into that world. Um, and that's it, then I await with anxiety a more personalized platform, so also the tech part, when I see more investments in marketing than in tech, I get scared, in this round, it seems balanced, and let's hope, let's hope for the best. But excellent, great, I'm a fan. >> Fantastic. >> Well done Anna, great pitch, enthusiasm, energy. I like the idea, I like the market, I come from there more or less, finance. And the fact of serving Italians by giving them expertise in an area where they need it is super interesting. Um, as a pitch, give a little more space to the team to reassure those who are listening that you already have some structure, and I also believe a lot in the B2B side from personal experience, it can be so remunerative, as well as leaving you a bit more independent from conflicts of interest, making fundraising less necessary. And the joke, so they need 10 million, in reality, if I imagine it with ambition, they need 70-80. It's good because it means the market is big. Um, but we also, when we added a B2B leg, we were surprised by the ease, then having created a consumer brand, using it to acquire companies that can give you important cash flows. Very interesting, and also super complex because you are doing B2C, B2B, you have to train your users at a cultural level on one hand, and on the other hand, you have very heavy regulation, so super complex, very, very interesting. Um, in my opinion, then, I agree with them, the B2B side is something to really dig into. I would have liked to see a big dream, a vision. So, really tell me, in 6-7 years, what have you become? Thinking super big, you've said it a bit, no? >> The last sentence you said should have been the first, in my opinion. >> Yes. Meaning, I want to see the big dream, then you tell me this is how I get there, because the technological model is there now, but it's almost more a model of brand, of clients you've managed to get, you've put a foot in the door, but I'd like to understand a bit of reverse engineering, where you want to go and how you're getting there. M >> m Yes, I completely agree. I would also have focused on the go-to-market, and I think the B2B part is very strong to explore. The positive side is that these are easy things to fix, so you are in a good position. It's a type of company in which I would actually consider investing. Then there's a valuation issue to understand because you didn't mention your current revenues, so that needs to be explored, but excellent pitch, it seems very, very interesting. I would go more into the nitty-gritty, you know. Meaning, you have three marketing people who create three pieces of content a week, three webinars, that's a lot of work. Given the numbers you're achieving, I would say why don't we invest more in paid? Why don't we invest more in sales? Because those are channels that you can scale better in the end, in my opinion. >> I'll add a little piece too. It seems to me that we are among those Italian startups that are solving a very Italian problem, so all the JHR, Fisco Zen, others in which I have invested. Um, and so it can work, in reality, because it's a very specific problem that if you solve it, you scale quickly, it's the usual problem, you remain confined to the Italian market, but if you take it all, it can become very big, and a bit like Satispay did, in the meantime, you can scale on a type of product when you have users who trust you so much that they even did their pension fund with you, there's much more to sell them and much more value to give them, so I'm confident that this can be a big startup. Even though I'm the presenter, I would also consider investing in this, even though you didn't tell us the revenue, so I don't actually know. >> Let's see, we'll talk about it later. >> We'll find out. Exactly. >> But I told you how much a customer is worth in 15 years. >> And that there are also children, so. >> And anyway, I didn't see AI, so I'm not investing. >> Ouch, ouch, ouch. Well, thank you very much, it was an excellent pitch. >> Thank you very much. Thank you all. [clears throat] >> Bye. >> Thank you. >> Bye. >> How did it go? >> Great. >> Were there any unforeseen events? Oh my! But no, less dramatic than I thought. I thought they would tear me apart, but instead, I broke the ice. Now I'll take this yellow folder and collect the votes from you, if you've already voted. >> How do the votes work? The judges will evaluate each startup on five criteria. The team weighs 25%, skills, complementarity, and execution capability. Then the problem and market are worth 20%. How real and urgent is this pain? And how big an opportunity is it. The solution is worth another 20%. Clarity of the value proposition and how disruptive it truly is compared to alternatives. Then go-to-market, traction, and moat weigh 25%, a credible plan to acquire customers and a competitive advantage that is difficult to replicate. Finally, the quality of the pitch is worth 10%. Structure, clarity, no fluff. >> There's, there's written here, the no. The no is written here. >> Anyway, in my opinion, they could have a great partnership with Satispay that could turn their business around. Never mind that he said some [laughter] things, never mind. >> No, in my opinion, um, yes, it could be a bit more aggressive. Um, >> valuation, how did it seem to you? High or fair? Ah, >> in my opinion, when you start negotiating [sighs] it's probably a bit high, but then with the right >> without seeing revenue, it's difficult, but to me it seems, it seems almost low, I don't know. In my opinion, it's irrelevant at the beginning. Eh, >> yes, you have to invest in the right thing. >> In my opinion, it's important to invest in the right thing. You'll have to put in a lot more money. >> if they remain independent, etc. Um, and it's such a hot topic that I would have said >> competition wasn't mentioned at all, there's no competition. >> But there isn't, this market is too big. I would have said Google searches for pension funds and I would have projected those numbers. I wonder if they are so caught up in the mission that they haven't truly looked at the distribution channels. Now they have this bit of positive inbound. It's true that it will compound, but >> maybe they have the opportunity to scale by 10 and don't realize it >> now that there's no one else, you know? Yes, because >> perhaps if they only had Satispay's sales team, I would give it an urgency. The norm has changed, everyone is afraid of not retiring. Google searches, look at them. 3 million. I would have asked for [laughter] 15. Then >> So, that you would have asked for 15, we don't doubt that. [laughter] >> Eh, but it helps, because three is a rip-off. Six >> you've finished collecting them, you've already spent them, you find yourself asking the market for capital again without having transformed your business. How much has Satispay collected since the beginning of the >> A little over 500 million. Yes, >> well, well, but yes, okay, my boss would have been very angry with that slide of 70% organic, 30% paid because he would have told me why aren't we spending more? I mean, if there's a way to >> Because they don't have the money, they have it by asking for it, that's why. >> No, okay, but sometimes you put this medal of pride, right? It's all organic, it's all inbound, you'd say, >> but it means there's an opportunity to push more, so in my opinion, that's something to explore. >> How do you feel? >> Pumped. >> What are you afraid of? >> Eh, I know it can all go to hell, but the chances are low, so I'm confident. >> Ideal scenario. >> Ideal scenario, we've almost closed the round. Leaving here having closed it. >> How much money are you looking for? >> €800,000. I call the guys from Menumal or Menum Mal to the stage. >> Menumal. >> Menumal. Ah, Menumal. >> Men okay, perfect. I remind you, you have exactly 5 minutes from this moment. >> Okay. Good morning everyone, I'm Leold Angelini, co-founder of Manual. >> I'm Leonardo Biagi, technical manager of Menumal. >> Together with Davide, we make up the trio of Menomal. And before talking about our AI solution, we like to delve a bit into the magnitude of the problem we bring here today and that we have in our hands, which concerns a sector we all care about, namely restaurants. So why are we here? Because while all sectors are talking about automation, integration, intelligent systems, we observe that the restaurant industry still runs on paper, paper menus, paper contact lists, paper reservations, and so on. We like to continuously validate the problem, even though we've been active since 2023. We've been to Zara, we even said in Zara we found the coolest restaurant in town, Le Botanis, coolest, meaning with reviews, exaggerated ratings. Let's see what and what we discover. Paper menu, paper contact list, phone reservations, so reservations on agendas. This problem, in our opinion, according to our estimates, is worth about 34 billion in Europe. And it's from here, apart from a small bug, that we start to have fun. We were born in 2023, starting with something that appears simple, apparently crowded, but in reality, there have never been so many of us, eh, with the digital menu, we have innovated it by integrating AI. To give you an idea, I ask you to scan. I'll give you 10 seconds to scan and see a bit of what we do. >> 9 8 7 6 5 >> This is not user first, eh, making users uncomfortable. [laughter] >> Well, we put it, they do the same thing. >> My fan started, I don't know if [laughter] >> you can see a vitello tonnato, right? Vitello tonnato and trip ascensore. I'm the owner, on WhatsApp I modify the menu. Put vitello tonnato at €22, hide the trip ascensore, and put in the description that Marcello Ascani made the vitello tonnato. Now, a modification of this type via audio takes maybe 10 seconds. In the meantime, I'll tell you that menal, therefore, today, what is it, to summarize? Digital menu, translator in five languages, indexes allergens, a host of functions that simplify menu management and >> I see it, I see it. Updates >> it happened. >> Let me call Davide, so this is the product. I need to speed up because I have little time with this product we've arrived here. Today we have NeRar, over €300,000 active in six countries, we've given them to you as an example in Zara, more than 850 clients, an RPU, so the value of the annual ticket is around €500, but we are developing new products, so we are introducing a lot of new stuff. One just under 2%, and an LTV on crap that tends to rise with the release of new products, I'll tell you that part of our key strategy. And now we take the rest. We have a super team, I, Leonardo, and Davide, who is missing today, Valentina from Meta, who worked for 7 years in New York and returned to Italy. PhD to lead the strategy and technical aspects, which Leo, ex-Globo, will solve in case, and we are about fifteen very young people. >> Davide is the one who made the modification earlier. >> No, no, [laughter] it's not true. He's >> he was hidden behind. >> In short, the key strategy revolves around this, no? Every decision, every process, every operational aspect revolves around these two numbers. To give you an idea, the LTV, how do we increase the average ticket? With the same method with which we revolutionized the menu, meaning redoing the software and integrating AI, we see 26 modules that within 3-4 years we hope to develop all of them, at the appropriate time. On the CAC side, you look at the most relevant cost components in your company, you notice that the limit can be sales, no? Instead of hiring an army in this AI climate, consider optimizing everything. We have created an internal sales agent that is very powerful, and from a simple sponsored ad, it automatically creates the menu for you, as we have always done. We have always done Field Sales in a demo-driven model, meaning, as you saw the demo, I enter the restaurant doing this with the personalized demo of the restaurant, we have automated everything, so qualification, sales, and we will integrate the AI agent with Stripe to automate payment as well. Current clients, we range from small butcher shops to consolidated chains like Fratelli la Bufala to large marketing agencies. We sell it in White Label as a management and menu management system. >> I'll give you an extra 30 seconds because of >> Yes, I'm here. Thank you. We have great restaurants like Trip in Milan and great resorts like Mangias Resort, one of the largest resorts in Europe. And the challenge is this, making technology finally digestible for sectors that are not so sexy. >> Digestible, >> exactly. [laughter] Yes, module by module with AI, with a round of €800,000, of which we are missing about €100,000, and a good group of people has already joined, followed by Vent, Biros, Jet, Bending Spon Sibil, a lot of people who flatter us to have them with us, and who is missing? We are missing €100,000, maybe we'll leave here with something useful. >> And and this is thank goodness. Thank you, >> well done, >> thank you very much. >> You have a shirt that's too beautiful, it was distracting me and [laughter] I was thinking about mountaineering instead of menus. Eh, I don't have time to go skiing, so I'm trying to bring it with me, this little thing. >> Okay, we have 20 minutes for Q&A. >> How much does it cost you to acquire a customer? More or less. >> Now it depends on the strategy. We are testing various things. We launched, for example, the IDV two months ago. We are forged on field sales, which gave us a CAC of around €200-€250, so quite reasonable with marketing. From the first test, we are around 300, but initiatives are coming that should go beyond being a test, so you optimize so much that it's quite enough for us. >> Okay, perfect. Thank you very much. >> Earlier you talked about different modules you have in mind that you are developing. Can you give us an overview of those? So, let's say, what are you building? >> Yes, now unfortunately I put it in transparency, so you can't see much. Try to go back there. Eh, eh, here, because we have 850 clients, we start to hear what else they want, no? So our choices are a defined pipeline in order of priority according to customer requests, so the most requested ones we put at the top. Eh, among the most requested, you look at which is the most, you know, the most expensive, the easiest to develop, and a ranking comes out. In green, you find three. There's the menu, which is top left, our product, Experience. Experience is the booking. Booking because on one hand, there are still a lot of people who don't optimize it. I talked earlier about phone reservations, there are restaurants that have people who are paid only to be on the phone all day answering reservations, and in addition, there is strong dissatisfaction with current tools. We're talking about tools like The Fork, which is very focused on the marketplace, or vertical tools like Superb Experience, there are many. So, why, how we decide priorities in the pipeline is this: customer requests, evaluate the market, see how much it costs to develop it. The second product you see is Menumal agency stack, this was a funny maneuver, it's how we developed, meaning created our enterprise ticket. Our main blocker was that when you went to the restaurant, they would tell you "No, look, it's cool, but I

I already have a contract with an agency that binds me." However, the problem is not resolved because the agency does not resolve the problem, if the glue. You go to the agency and discover that it is the management of the menu for all clients that have it, which is one of the worst pains of the business, so you start to think of the tool as a white label to give to them, and we launched this, and it has given us great results. It gives us hope for an enterprise ticket and on the other hand, it gives you a natural distributor that you don't even have to give commissions to, because first of all, he also needs to reduce costs. From there, wine management, Wi-Fi management, we talk about marketing, obviously the vision is to have a one-stop shop, to have everything, so, but reasonably, you don't have to get bogged down either, so we are constantly asking ourselves at what speed to develop, because otherwise the risk is that you don't develop the product, you neglect customer success, and you go to three instead of two. >> And so how many clients do you have today? 850 more than >> And of these, how many have more than one module? Well, at the moment, reservations, reservations, we did a qualification call in October, and it's just starting now, but we already have 100 clients waiting to be onboarded. We onboarded seven, but because it started a week ago. >> And are they the same ones who already had the menu, or are they new? >> Of course, the priority is for the same ones because they are also loyal there. There too, the CAC is a big call, like >> super attached to you, and you onboard them quickly. >> But didn't you mention the revenue by chance? Yes, >> right. >> Revenue, revenue was generally higher because we started with an activation cost that we were missing because we went into bootstrapping. Today, the company is 97.5% ours. >> So, to make ends meet, you put a nice activation fee, I have to do a thousand things for you. In reality, they were super optimized, you did them quickly. >> Whose is that 2%? One is a micro convertible ticket acquired at the beginning, in March 2023, when we were born. Then a micro club deal of restaurateurs, our clients. >> Well, unfortunately, I know the sector very well, and I'm afraid we're not talking about the really important things. >> Already that you with the tickets like >> No, actually we acquired a startup that did this. >> Ah, okay. >> And we banged our heads against it a lot. Um, the 2% sounds strange to me. >> I'm afraid we're not talking about who uses it, we're talking about who took it and maybe forgot about it. >> Well, this solves the merchant's problems, but the merchant doesn't know they have it, so you're probably selling it to restaurants where the first complaint is that they make them wait at the table to order, and this tells you "No, but I don't need it." >> That is, the big challenge is adoption. Um, and it seems to me a challenge that is not yet fully resolved. It will get there, we don't know if the market is ready. It sells, it sells, but then do they use it? I see data of the percentage of revenue processed by you, because what happens in all the restaurants we go to is that there is the QR code, but the waiter doesn't tell us to scan it and then brings us the paper menu anyway. >> We were born in 2023, it was a year when the QR code was already well digested by the pandemic, right? because it was mandatory, all the realities were born, we know Onion, which is the reality acquired by Satispay, and it was already a case study for us in not risking making the same mistakes. And the adoption issue is a very important issue. In the meantime, we might not do Pay, so we don't, I mean, our revenue is a SaaS that they pay annually, and that raises the question of whether they use it. We were worried about this. Even when we were onboarding clients, we made sure that it became the primary menu and not the secondary one, because otherwise the risk is that. >> Improving customer success means tracking scans and setting alarms when you notice that in a month, last month it went from 100 to zero, they don't use it anymore, they're on vacation, no? Or since you onboarded them, it hasn't started yet, or they do two scans a month, then you understand that it's the two Japanese who happened to be in the outskirts of Siena last week. So no, for us, we are convinced that there is certainly not much room for improvement, but it hasn't been a problem. We have created a product that truly impacts the restaurant; if they take it, it's not to have the alternative translator when there's a foreigner, but because they have critical issues in daily management, right? changing dishes every day. Did you see? This is the value we bring. If I go to someone and show them this and they say, "Look, I change it at least once a year, I'm not solving the pain," in that case, there's a risk they'll buy it anyway, but use it secondarily, and then we have to investigate. For us, it's a sale, it's true that you risk impacting the search >> But then these 850, do they use it? >> Of course, of course. >> Maybe it would be nice to see the data on this. >> We have the CRM that tracks scans, yes. No, at the percentile level, how many scans or something, some metrics could >> many are seasonal activities, so you have to consider that if you look at the scans now, you run the risk when in reality you know that they use it and it's seasonal, so there are small clusters that you have to analyze differently, but we have it under control, not perfectly under control, otherwise we wouldn't have the turn that has increased, but it is certainly under attention and it is not a problem that makes us jump today. And you don't fear that it's a commodity, since many do it and maybe in a year you'll find yourself where the new POS that someone else gave them already has that service and all things considered, it's done well enough, they have no reason to change it. If we had made a super simple SaaS and immediately dedicated ourselves to being the one-stop shop, we would have been under this threat, meaning Nexi arrives, which in addition to the POS, as you say, maybe does >> no, I don't think it's Nexi, an example, but >> it could be Satisfi. >> You gave an example of a home porn, other startups rather, >> I mean, anyone can make a digital menu in 6 months, even in three, right? Then there's what you give that's unique. Having worked on this for 2 years, having put AI on it, and remaining a core product, we have reached a level of innovation with entry barriers that are very high. Then it's up to us to develop new products and continue to innovate. >> Isn't there a risk of it going out of sync with the primary menu, in the sense that if the restaurateur changes something in the menu and doesn't update your product, it's out of sync? That's the risk. When we started, like any software, in any sector, there's the "grazione" (a bit of a mess/hack), right? You make a standalone solution, but I use three or four other parallel software, and they don't integrate with each other. Our issue is the POS, meaning if you have to add a new dish, you have to add it to the menu, you have to add it to the POS. The desire would be to make one change and have everything integrated. >> This requires them to have a consistent backend that they use >> Exactly. A good integration campaign, and that was the strategy of others, very costly because the player you have to integrate with is a heavy player, right? it could be Zucchetti, Team System, Pasto, which, by the way, these three giants are in the round with us from Daniele Ratti >> of Team System to Zuga, an exit of Zucchetti, and so on. Um, so the integration issue, we always suffered from it at the beginning because it was: if you go to the restaurant, they want it integrated, you can't give it to them, you go and think about creating a product so deep and indispensable that they'll accept the double modification just to have it. This is pretty much the situation we've been digging into these years. >> Indeed, not being integrated means, excuse me, having 850 clients with their POS that doesn't communicate. We would like to fix it, but it connects us. >> I think I understood, but maybe I'm wrong, that you don't take orders anyway, just the menu. Exactly, >> that's not an obvious next step, in the sense that people can book and something arrives. >> There too, it was part of the reflection as soon as we started. The payment issue is super sexy because if you make the menu, you'd want to be able to start ordering automatically. If you dig a bit, as Alberto certainly knows, it's a very heavy initiative. We sniffed it out, and it never seemed that fascinating to us. It's in the pipeline, thank goodness. Payment is there, and you think about when to implement it. If it loses its sexiness in the pipeline, it's because, here it is, it's because it's very, very heavy, so it's so far off that for now it's easier for us to think about a collaboration, a player who does vertical on that rather than developing it ourselves. >> What do you do with the money you're asking for? What are your plans? >> No, essentially, the dev team is quite substantial, we are eight in total, we are 158 more or less devs, so you definitely get more resources, you get designers, operations, sales side, the challenge now is big, right? complete the sales agent that gives you a DV or an inbound, totally automates the process, and we invest a lot in that. So this means that one day, if I manage to do it well, I no longer need a salesperson, I need a designer along with an Ops person to help me analyze the process and optimize it more and more. So on one hand, resources, so more or less divided in half, to get key resources like a designer or Ops, on the other hand, it's to engage your go-to-market, so if our channel becomes only marketing or GTM AI GTM, meaning massive outreach, investments will definitely go there. So for marketing budget or >> Can I just ask one thing? What do you become tomorrow? That is, what is your ambition? To become the general suite for restaurants, >> so to replace the cash register too, to replace the POS like no, like the POS, cash register and POS are precisely those mega projects that for now you postpone to not complicate your life, creating a satellite of indispensable products that might even make you more attractive to converse with those who currently have the cash register and can benefit greatly from you as we do from them. A question, and since I don't know the sector at all, how are we doing in terms of competition? That is, how big are your competitors compared to you? How much market do they have, how difficult is it to fight them? Ah, >> competitors are divided into three groups, that is, the large groups, as I said before, Zucchetti, Team System, Pass Part, A Pratico, which is a good company, and there are incumbents, there are startups of our profile, of our caliber, or realities that are just starting now. And on the side of large competitors, if they are investing in us, those who come from there are because they notice that they are facing a big problem of integration between products, right? Mega acquisition campaigns of tools. Today there is a bottleneck in making them communicate synergistically, besides being on a very heavy technological stack. Other startups, excuse me. >> No, no, what I find hard to understand is how you, that is, you are better than others, what is it, what happened in these years of menus, QR codes that changed the game? Now you can be stronger than others. We are strong because from the outset we observed that the entry barriers were not low, that it seems everyone can make a menu when in reality then you go there and you don't do it. There are probably 1000 digital menus out there, 995 have fewer than 20-30 clients. So it means you reach a point where you say, "Oh, it's not that easy, I'm leaving." We visualized it, we created something in 2.5 years that is going strong, that gives you a vision to do much more, that the more you go forward, the more excited you get to continue. >> And do you know how many clients your small direct competitor has? So not the big systems, but the innovative startups, >> the direct competitors that remain, more or less I consider two, two or three, and they are, I can even name them, Codap and Chromo, which were born for the same reason, they launched themselves on the promise of payment, and now they are so focused on that mega, on that mass that they have neglected the menu, so they have additional functions that for a specific category are fascinating, so for chains, payment, integration, and so on, might be very appealing, but on the other hand, they are not competitive for us. Because they haven't specialized so much. >> Okay. >> And they have more or less 1000 clients. 1000-2000, however. >> Okay. So not many more than you. >> There is a big gap between the large groups and >> how many clients does a large group have, as far as you know? >> It can have 20,000. >> Okay. No one has 100,000 clients. >> There are Zucchetti. Zucchetti perhaps, but in the restaurant sector. >> At most, how many clients could you have in Italy? >> In all restaurants, the estimate is 350,000-400,000. >> Okay. Like 25% of Italian businesses are also neighborhood rotisseries, pizza by the slice, so there are about a million around, maybe not all of them are in your target, but >> I would have liked to ask something about, something about the role of AI? In what way? >> We still have a few minutes, we still have Leo to talk to, so maybe >> Exactly. That is, how do you manage potential hallucinations, or could it be a problem that the menu changes and then it turns out it's not veal tonnato, but something else? To manage hallucinations, we have a Rag system trained on about 1 million examples of natural language and actions that the AI agent needs to perform. And in this way, we manage to avoid types of hallucinations. We can even make the AI perform more operations in a single message. So, hide this, put this other thing, and increase the price by one. Or bulk operations. >> Yes, but it's the restaurateur who speaks to you in Romanesco, right? Pagliata. I mean, I don't know how you have metrics on success or failure. Someone who complained about the aspect, said the same thing 50 times. No, in this regard, it's very well-rolled because, in addition to this, it learns based on the restaurateur, so depending on what the restaurateur says, and with GPT, it also understands Romanesco. >> Okay. >> Yes. For example, when I do written demos and not audio, I always put the O's without the H. No, I need to hide it to give you an idea of how we test it. >> Even if you get the dish wrong, I mean, it can find that too. It's not something >> Let's move on to the feedback round. >> Yes, this is a particular case because, um, usually the problems are more related to go-to-market with the startups we see in this format. Instead, you, in my opinion, are doing a good job on customer acquisition. I also like the team quite a bit. The quality of the pitch is interesting, apart from the technical problems, but even doing a live demo was an excellent idea, but the issue of what makes you unique and the market worries me quite a bit. You said earlier that your motto is problem identification, understanding the problem. That's a fundamental starting point, but it's not a motto because everyone who talks to you has it, right? I mean, you get there quickly, while you have all the players like The Fork or in the US, they have a monopoly on this, on the world of ordering, and they have something much more tangible for the restaurateur, which is potential customers they bring, regardless of all the other problems they have, but in my opinion, it's much easier to sell this aspect. And on the other hand, payment, where I agree with you, it doesn't make sense for you to develop a payment system now, but you have all the players who are very strong in the restaurant world who, on the other hand, are much quicker to build a product similar to yours. So I don't know, I'm left with this doubt, that is, in my opinion, your team is strong, but I can't yet see a sufficiently unique angle. No, similar feedback. I really liked the presentation, I liked it, I like the team, you've put together a good team. The way you think about things also seems to make sense to me. I like the approach of how you've thought about the various puzzle pieces. >> The restaurant market is huge, you can see it from all the modules you've thought of. >> My thought, from a VC perspective, however, is that you started with what is perhaps a less strong problem and where there is less money. >> In my opinion, the team is very strong, I don't know if you are focusing on something that is worth it. >> I'm not convinced by the pitch because I find there are some inconsistencies. >> And 300k, but before it was higher. >> Yes, that's right, but it's not clear to me if it's paid or not. Also the direct questions from Marcello, talk to us about competitors, >> it took you a while to get there. It seems to me that you are very much at the beginning. >> Knowing the sector, everyone starts only with the menu because if you only do the menu, you get acquisition, and then everyone at some point has to figure out what else to do, and then it becomes difficult, and I understand the entrepreneurial logic of saying, we complicate our lives if we do payment, we complicate our lives if we do ordering, we complicate our lives if we give the POS, but you have to go there. That's why when I asked you what you want to become, the unique suite, and then also the POS, yes, then that too. Okay, but in my opinion, if you look at it carefully, in the end, you have to be the cash register and do everything, and you keep not doing it to only do the menu, and as long as you only do the menu, you get thousands of clients, more or less they don't churn, and then at some point you have to do something more. My fear is that you have to better identify what you want to become, you have to say it first, and you have to start biting. some other service to really bang your head against it and understand how AI or the quality of your team can solve the issue because it immediately becomes a crowded market with many very small fish. >> Here you can see that I don't understand anything about venture capital investments. I liked the chaotic pitch a bit, and also the improvised demo. >> And so, stealing a bit from Irene, it also seemed to me, without all the, let's say, my entire background as someone who invests in startups, that the real meat, the tripe, wasn't there because there wasn't the money in the menu. >> So I also wonder, yes, I want to see the rest, but how much, we've seen the revenues are already there now, so >> maybe if you were more data-oriented in the pitch somehow. Nice demo, obviously you can't do everything in five minutes, but nice demo, and then a few more numbers in the pitch. That's what I missed, for the rest. Wow, today's startups are high-level. >> I'll just add a summary, I'll add a little something. In my opinion, the summary where it seems unanimous is that the team is strong, you are convincing, and I'll add that at this stage, at such a low valuation, we're talking about a pre-seed fundamentally, you invest in the team. That's my theory, what everyone says. So if I reason as an investor, today I care little whether you're attacking the right or wrong market, you bang your head against it. You invest in the fact that you are capable and more motivated than other startup founders, maybe tomorrow you'll discover that you offer this service in another product category that isn't restaurants and it works. Regarding the market itself, however, I agree with them. This is the typical case where there is space in the market not because no one has thought of it, but because there are few opportunities in this market. So there is space for a solution that doesn't find solutions because they don't pay enough, and therefore players constantly enter and try. When they try to scale on solutions where the money is, the sharks, the competitors enter, and there the game becomes very difficult, and so when I ask you what your motto is, it's very important to say, we're not fantastic, we're brilliant because that's not a motto, it's important to say a real motto, which could be technology, right? Startups work like this. There's a big technological change. We exploit it to screw over those who used to do things slowly. So tell me how you are screwing over those who did things differently before AI. I was with AI done differently. Because if you can't tell me well what the motto is, it's clear that in such a market, I don't believe that stuff. I believe more in you as founders. >> Yes, >> We'll say goodbye. Thank you very much for the pitch. Thank you. Bye. >> How did it go? >> Reasonably well. Come on, >> were there any unforeseen events? >> Something unforeseen? I expected more technical questions. >> Is there anything you wanted to say but didn't? >> Yes, in our sector, method and how you arrive at something is more important than arriving at it. >> Anyway, €500 ARR is high for the product they have. No, >> 300,000. >> No, no, and excuse me, €500 ARR. They were saying €500 per >> I'm not convinced by anything. He contradicted himself. >> You are the most competent one. >> He contradicted himself too many times. It can't be. That is, either the founders, the data, yes, and the ARR was higher before, then the churn was higher, but in reality, I don't know. In my opinion, there's a lack of transparency, and this makes me >> but maybe simply because he wasn't skilled at pitching, I mean, I saw a very operational founder without frills. >> In my opinion, there were too many frills because he knows what the market problems are, he's not talking about them. >> How do you feel? >> Uh, a bit emotional, but it will surely be a good experience. >> What are you afraid of? >> I'm afraid that the technical effort behind our application won't be perceived. >> Ideal scenario? >> Obviously, receiving funding, having strategic partners. >> How much money are you looking for? >> €300,000. Let's call Jourmet to the stage. Good morning. Hi. >> Good morning. >> Welcome. >> 3 2 1 action. >> Hi everyone. I'm Giuseppe, he's Rocco, and today we present Giurmi, the application that allows you to create personalized and optimized travel itineraries using artificial intelligence algorithms. But first, let's introduce our team. We met in the Mister Rip community. Over the last 2 years, we've chatted a lot and decided to meet to create something beautiful. We have Giorgio, who is an industrial engineer with 5 years of experience in business and data science, who transmits his vision to us and is also the main mind behind the algorithm. Then there's me, a data scientist with 7 years of experience, including four in software development and startups. We have Matteo, who takes care of making all the things we technical people do beautiful, and finally Rocco, a data science student and already an industrial engineer who supports us in development and is also involved in other operations. Until recently, organizing a trip was a simpler activity, or at least unconsciously so. Often, perhaps, you relied on an agency that, for the cost of a package, gave you a ready-made package. >> Today, however, young people prefer DIY when organizing a trip, but all this excess of ideas, information, and travel influencers confronts us with the paradox of choice and analysis paralysis. Jurmy, therefore, aims to solve precisely these problems, and it does so through artificial intelligence algorithms that we have developed in-house, which organize a travel itinerary in a few seconds, in an optimized and personalized way solely for the user, taking into account their preferences and travel styles. The Traveltech market is rapidly growing in 2026, and it's a very positive trend. Furthermore, AI, let's say, is already accepted, it's used with quite a bit of confidence by the masses. And furthermore, Giurmi covers a market segment that large players often forget, which is that of trips, that is, day trips, short getaways. So, let's say, the ground is fertile for starting this business. The beauty of Jourmy is that it's not just an app with probably the best algorithm for this purpose, but it will soon become a real travel company with interactive features that will accompany the user before, during, and after the trip. Jurmy, by the way, is not just an idea, but it's already a reality, because in the last 6 months, even with a very part-time commitment, we managed to launch a closed beta in October, with which we collected the first feedback and user needs, and then we launched an open beta last month, which in just a few weeks, organically, reached hundreds of users and generated itineraries and many requests for more information. Our plan for 2026 is to release the mobile app and new features as soon as possible. In the meantime, we will raise funds and officially establish the company, after which we will invest heavily in marketing to reach a critical mass of users by the end of the year. Obviously, Giurmi is primarily aimed at travelers, both those who want to organize their perfect trip in detail, and also Sunday improvisers. We also realized that our technology could be useful to other players in the travel sector, so we could offer our APIs as a Service or in white label. From here, our three main revenue streams arise. Obviously, B2C, since users can purchase in-app currency to use the various features, and B2B, as mentioned, through APIs and white label, and obviously affiliate marketing and partnerships. By the way, some are already active with some players in the sector like Get Your Guide, others are coming, they are already in progress. Compared to the competition or those who do something similar as an accessory function, we are, let's say, quite confident that our algorithm is the most performant in many respects, including automation, personalization of results, but also accuracy in terms of itinerary quality and recommendation system that only proposes points of interest that you truly like. We've run out of time. >> There's just how much we're asking for. >> Go ahead. >> Okay. The market is very large. The market estimates, in the best-case scenario, we will be able to capture the entire obtainable market. We are asking, we are trying to raise €300,000 in exchange for 15% equity. >> In reality, we are looking more for strategic partners or work for equity in terms of travel and influencer marketing. >> Thank you very much. Can I start? >> Do you want to start? We have 20 minutes. >> Why should it do better than an agent I build on Gemini or ChatGPT? Why do you say personalized to what I like? In what sense? I mean, I use Gemini every day, it knows very well what I like. >> Okay, >> they already have the B2B API. >> Okay. To analyze a bank transaction, would you prefer a machine learning fraud detection model or ask Gemini based on the transaction that just happened? >> I think I'd ask Gemini >> a real-time bank transaction not >> with >> with a structured prompt. >> I really can't understand how you can have this algorithm that is the absolute best. It doesn't make sense to me. I mean, it has to be said that LLMs at the moment >> and anyway, they are not bank transactions, my trip is different. >> Yes, yes, of course, but it was to make a general artificial intelligence model versus a specialized and performant one, >> but anyway, the financial transaction part is also based on big LLMs, not those who are trying to do that specifically for financial services, they don't have adoption. Of course, but LLMs at the moment are not as performant from the point of view of an operational research algorithm as what we have developed. Let's say LLMs fail in that regard, both due to hallucinations and because sometimes they don't have enough data on smaller realities. So there isn't >> In reality, there is >> there is where we think it was needed. There isn't >> generative is only used in accessory functions and where it's needed, while >> the algorithm we use actually physically optimizes travel times and distances between points of interest, so by measuring real distances. >> I didn't understand then how the behind-the-scenes of >> It's not an AI algorithm >> of the product, right? Tell us about it, maybe a little bit. >> Yes. >> Okay. You decide to visit a city, Milan. >> First of all, the size of Milan and also the shape of the city are considered, and based on how many days you have to stay in this city, the points of interest are grouped by areas to visit. >> Where do you find the points of interest? >> We use Google's APIs, for example, Google Maps, but in reality, we also plan to do a CR. to understand if they are beautiful or ugly >> and if they interest me, above all. >> Yes, before the result is presented, the user is profiled through a questionnaire about their preferences, and then they can also fine-tune their preferences within the application. We also have a short video demo that we can show shortly. >> So you choose, let's say, the algorithm chooses the places and profiles me and selects the places based on my profile. >> Yes, it's a recommendation system like Netflix's, simply. And if I've already seen Netflix, it knows what I've already seen, here it doesn't know what I've already seen. I have to tell it. Go, I'm back in Milan, and if I take a second trip to Milan, will it suggest the same things again, or does it know what I've seen? It's very difficult to manage the "already seen" part, I think. >> Actually, no, in reality, it's not that difficult, given how we've structured the database, it's not difficult. So, in reality, of course, on the first access, you can decide what level of personalization you want. Quick, you choose presets, medium, you do a multiple-choice questionnaire of eight questions. For nerds, there are all the various selectors, zero, I don't want to see anything, 1, 2, 3, and based on these, each place is assigned a recommendation score, which is then ordered and also distributed over the days. >> So, you were telling me about how it sees what's already been seen. Obviously, the information remains in the database. Furthermore, once a sufficient mass of users is reached, we will also use human feedback as reinforcement learning, because once the itinerary is created, even if it's optimized by us, if there's something you really don't like, you can decide to remove some points and leave a free slot, or swap it with one nearby, so that the physical optimization isn't lost. If we collect all the removed and swapped points, clearly these will have a penalized score because they are the most removed points, and therefore perhaps people don't want to see them. Clearly, this can be used. >> So having millions of users using you would help you? >> But even less than millions, they are quite algorithms. The fact that they have tens of millions of users using Gemini and ChatGPT is already giving them this value. The point is that people are super satisfied using these agents for their trips and should they go looking for a startup they don't know, very small, fill it out, tell them things that Gemini already knows about me, I use them every day even for work. Let's say that also due to how probabilistic engines work, that is, language models, they clearly, even with the use of external tools and with API integration, still tend to recommend the most probable places. >> Today, every month they are different, they are evolving rapidly, I mean, we can't talk >> perhaps it takes you 3 years to build something, in 3 years they will be completely different. Of course, but we already have it ready, that is, ours works perfectly already today, we can still improve it, we have a lot of room, and anyway, the fact remains that it is an application, a specific app for a specific purpose, and not a general thing. Clearly, there are many >> why the app, for example, I saw, I mean, why should I also go through the filter of downloading an app? Isn't it an extra friction that also asks you to develop? >> Well, at the moment it's a web app that works directly from the browser and can also be used from a smartphone. Clearly, it's not yet optimized for a smartphone screen, but it works and is usable. At the moment, the mobile app will be used to integrate interactive functions to be used during the trip. For example, I'm in the middle of the itinerary and I say, "I'm hungry now, I don't want to wait for lunch." What do I have nearby? GPS, there's a café nearby, that you like because it's already recommended by the recommendation system. Can I go there right away and then resume the itinerary? >> And in my opinion, you're losing the point of added value because for my honeymoon, I got quotes from the agency, and we tried with ChatGPT, they give the same result, and wow, practically they have it presented by these LLMs. So the reason why one goes to an agency is not so much because they know the place, because they know how to plan within certain limits, but because they book everything for you. You know it's organized, you don't have to worry. When you talk to people who decide to go to an agency, they say, "I don't want the hassle of booking things, I know I'm going to the airport and the car is there." So the added value is that. >> I didn't understand, and I don't think your direction is to solve it. And also when you tell me, "Ah, but ChatGPT gives you generic points of interest," if you're going to get from Google's APIs, I mean, to what extent is this solution better than, say, a Gemini or ChatGPT that does more or less the same thing? >> Okay. But consider that in Milan, how many points of interest are there, for example, in all of Milan, so maybe thousands, probably in the order of thousands that ChatGPT doesn't process in real-time when you ask it, probably maybe it makes API calls, let's say, those it needs to answer you quickly. >> Furthermore, we don't see ourselves as a competitor to travel agencies, because that's another type of need, probably the complete package. Then we speak more, perhaps to Millennials and Gen Z who do DIY, they are very quick, in 10 seconds you have a ready itinerary, you made it yourself. >> And >> well, in my opinion, it's better to be competitors to travel agencies than to be competitors to ChatGPT and Gemini. >> Okay, we accept the advice. We accept the advice. >> Let's try to move on to another topic. I unfortunately agree with them, I don't see the differentiation or at least the time it takes you to develop this thing. >> In the meantime, Gemini and ChatGPT will be much further ahead. However, how much do your users pay you, and in your opinion, let's say, what is the experience for a single trip, a subscription? How does it work? >> Well, our business model at the moment involves, in B2C, selling in-app currency to the user, which costs a few euros. And from our side, we try, that is, we want to ensure that the user books through us, also by implementing in-app checkouts in the future that allow us to earn through affiliate marketing with partners like Xedia or Get Your Guide. At the moment, an itinerary, let's say, to be blunt, costs about €1.50. >> €1.50. >> Yes, >> the queue is long, eh, to become, in reality, this cost is compressible because in reality our machine cost, the algorithms are very efficient and we don't burn. >> No, no, truth be told, not compressible, I mean, if you charge less than €1.50 >> no. But to say that the margin on a single itinerary is very high precisely on computation. We don't burn billions of tokens to generate. >> How are we doing with traction? >> Traction, I repeat, we have just launched the open beta on January 5th. >> 200 itineraries since the 5th >> uh, 200, we made a couple of posts on LinkedIn, more than 200 people subscribed who generated itineraries because at the moment in Open beta we give away the first one, then by filling out the feedback questionnaire to collect needs from other coins to make a second one. >> Many hadn't yet implemented checkout, but many clicked on the "request more J Coins" button, so the notification arrived, and we implemented the checkout with Stripe just this month. I invested in a travel startup, some are biased, by the way, he will be in one of the next episodes, so I can't expose myself too much, but I've thought about it a lot, and I think there's a huge opportunity in travel. >> And also to answer Alberto, if you offer value, it's right to have a dedicated tool for life's macro activities. So they asked Jeff Bezos, I quote Marco Monteagno who quotes Jeff Bezos. I was about to say the same thing. >> Why did you make the Kindle, which is the same as a computer, a tablet? Because it's a tool dedicated to reading. That said, and I am extremely, in reality, in agreement with Alberto and the others, that you can't create a GPT wrapper that offers me exactly the same, let's say, that has the same day and it's also paid €1.50 when the same almost the old one.

What makes me do it, GPT. >> Ok, but this is not a GPT wrapper, there's no G. Artificial intelligence is not in the core algorithm. >> Ok? Let's say that then, but the result the user gets, no, is analogous. And instead, by thinking a bit about the problem, let's say, in my opinion, the opportunities lie in everything where AI doesn't reach. In my opinion, there are gigantic problems with how these places are profiled, so if you happen to find restaurants with tens of thousands of reviews, they are all fake because not so many people pass by this restaurant and everything is 5 stars, like barbers who normally have 30 clients in a month and have thousands of reviews, no? So >> we have dealt with this problem. >> So this problem of discovering places is fundamental, no? There is a business, the Michelin Guide, that is based on this with a certain type of profile, so for example, that is something, and that's what I invested in too. Then there's the community, no? So you have Wiadod, meaning the problem is not where to travel, people know where to travel, it's that they don't know with whom to travel, they don't want to see things alone, they don't feel equally safe, so it's let's attack. So there it makes sense to have a dedicated tool when it does things that CPT already cannot do. In my opinion, if you were to redo this pitch or rethink your value proposition, you should absolutely think about what value I bring to the user that is absolutely unique compared to what is available today. Yes. Because if you tell me I do what is already excellent a little better, obviously the pain is missing. >> Yes, let's say it's difficult, we realize that it's difficult to communicate, let's say, the technical aspect and performance without going into the specifics of machine learning model performance metrics. Um, so clearly we are aware that it is difficult to convey the difference with generalist tools that >> But the difference shouldn't be conveyed, in my opinion, the >> added value should be explained. >> You speak to the client, anyway, so you have to highlight what the problem is, and so here, what is the problem? People, I have never worked in a travel agency in my life, so if you present the travel agency as a problem, I say, well, maybe I don't understand. >> No, no, the problem was the paradox of choice and analysis paralysis. The agency >> In my opinion, you need to listen a bit more to the feedback. Excuse me, >> you are too eager >> I'm a bit excited. >> You have an opportunity to improve the pitch, listening is important. You also need to let your partner speak a bit more, you interrupted him, and so it's better to go alone than to go with someone and then make them shut up. Eh, no, [laughter] bravo, but if you don't let him speak, then it's better to go alone, he stays in the office working and you move on instead of being two people wasting time. >> Can we start with the feedback? I think we are on time. And then one thing about the round that we haven't really touched upon as a topic, from someone who has raised a very similar round in past and dark times, that is truly a crappy round because it's money that runs out quickly and you end up with 15% equity given away, and rather I would say try to spend more time truly solving the problem, having real traction, and then you will be able to do something a bit more serious. Maybe in the meantime, think about how to bring in strategic people, like the travel influencers you mentioned earlier, for example. And yes, the general feedback, we've already talked about some of it, but I'll give you some pointers. What Marcello said was very true, that when I travel, maybe the thing that interests me is seeing local people recommend certain places. Then he has already invested in a startup that does this, so maybe we shouldn't compete too much, but I would think about other angles, like talking to travel agencies, understanding what your problem is, how we can help you. The most [ __ ] part of what you've mentioned so far, in my opinion, is the micromobility algorithm within travel. That could be something that maybe becomes a standard for those who organize trips or for those who want to create algorithms that organize trips and say "Ok, then I'll base it on or even trips, no? You mentioned this topic here that maybe is less covered" and then there it could be interesting. I don't know how much of a technological trend there is behind it, it would be a completely different startup, so it needs to be explored. So, I would focus on a completely different value proposition. Honestly, what I saw today doesn't seem like it can become a real startup. >> Yes, in my opinion. Well, first of all, the fact that you can't talk about the differentiation of the value you bring to the user except in technical terms is a problem because you still have to convince me or him in particular not to use Gemini or GPT, which honestly, while it's true that a vertical tool is needed, I use a vertical tool if it completely changes my experience, saves me time, helps me think in another way, does something specific, as you said now, that the more generalist tool cannot do. In this case, it's not there. Um, the other problem is that travel is definitely a rather ungrateful sector, in the sense that there are already huge players, I'm saying this as someone who tried to start a startup in 2010, almost very, very similar, so I understand you. It's an ungrateful sector, there are very large players who are already doing this, so beyond the generalists, all, let's say, booking portals of any kind are trying to offer you the possibility of creating an itinerary or are moving in that direction, because obviously when you enter through a small part, why not help you build the whole day? So let's say, yes, in my opinion, it's something to rethink about what you differentiate yourselves on and go in that direction. It's not a given that you have to raise capital, I honestly advise against it. >> In fact, we were actually aiming more for now. >> Well, you can't argue back? [laughter] No, I advise you not to raise capital. >> I advise you not to raise capital because this is not a play where you can, let's say, raise from VCs, and even from Angels it doesn't make sense. Try bootstrapping, do experiments, that's how it works. Anyway, you've already made two posts on LinkedIn, that's definitely not bootstrapping, so you can push much harder on the bootstrapping part. >> Yes, I agree. Don't raise capital too early, don't play the game of making a startup that absolutely has to raise capital. Um, in my opinion, you need to stop and write, truly write why this thing is useful and truly write what is happening in the world. So, who has done Lelm, in what direction is it going? Even with the fact that people will do the final shopping, but what do people want? The most interesting thing I heard was Tommaso saying travel influencers, why should they tell me what I like, when I don't even know myself. I trust certain people, certain influencers I follow, that my wife follows, that every time we've seen where they've been, we've had a good time and I want to do that, I don't want to end up in an app that also tells me how to manage the trip, where I'll look at it with Google Maps, I'll look at it, if I go to London I used City Mapper, I mean, yes, I do everything. Yes, I also do the itinerary in the city, I also do it. You don't have to be in a hurry to give the answer and say that you do it, your reality will do it. In my opinion, there is a lack of serious analysis of the need and where the market is going, and in my opinion, you should invest your energy and enthusiasm in something else after you have dedicated time to understanding if this thing makes sense or not. And in my opinion, if you write down all the steps in black and white and challenge the competition yourself, something else will come out? Because you haven't given it the right angle. In my opinion >> I don't [clears throat] there's much I can add. I didn't understand that this was the level, and let's say that [clears throat] what in my opinion is missing, besides, I'm not a big power user of LLMs, so honestly, a minimum of pain, well, I won't travel much anymore, but if I go to a city and have to organize something, once I ask Google Maps, it's missing, give me a list of [ __ ] things to see here, and so I've always had a repulsion for Trip Advisor or other things like that, but I'm not a big LLM user at the moment, and so I had perceived some pain, but listening to the other feedback, it leads one to say that probably yes, how to differentiate from LLMs today and in the next few years is the main thing. Then, secondly, the business model part, it hasn't even been discussed, perhaps it's too early. I know the team, I know the guys are very capable, but objectively I'm also a bit conflicted because my community, and I'm sure I've had fantastic feedback from people who know a lot, so try to understand the future direction. >> Ok? In my opinion, to summarize, the issue is very simple and it's that perhaps you've come here too early. And in this historical period, in my opinion, and this is very personal, I always say it on Ascensore, I will always say it, for a startup it's much better to wait as long as possible before raising even €1, because it allows you, as Tommy and everyone else said, to demonstrate that you have much more traction, so you don't have to come here to show me that you have the pain and that you can solve it, because you are already doing it. And furthermore, all of this, when you go to raise the round and have numbers, you do it at a much higher valuation. And why do I say this historical period? Because once it wasn't possible, but now literally with artificial intelligence, the excessive distribution we have with the internet and everything else, it's truly possible to go very far, perhaps even invoice millions without raising €1, and then maybe when you really hit a wall and say "I'm facing a pile of money and the only way to get it is to scale from 0 to 10 all at once, then that's the time to raise capital." Thank you very much, guys, it was a great experience. How did it go? >> Well, they beat us up, but in a good way, let's say. >> Were there any unforeseen events? >> I thought I would stumble less, but the first pitch was predictably going to go like that. >> Is there anything you wanted to say but didn't? Eh, I don't think I communicated the difference between us and an LLM well, but it's not easy, especially for non-technical people. >> Remind users to vote in the comments too, because the judges' vote can be confirmed or overturned. >> Anyway, maybe these will become the biggest of all, you know, then the thing is explained, they are really capable. Look, you can make huge mistakes. >> The beauty is that in 10 years we'll look back and say all those we've dismissed now are >> Of course. The classic anti-portfolio was clearly too early. For me, that was the problem. We thank today's guests. Well, in particular, the only guest who is not a regular, Alberto Dalmasso. You were very important. I also thank the others, Mister Rip, the Remingozzis, Tommaso were fundamental. I hope you liked the startups, comment on them in the comments, see you in the next episodes. It's time to discover the ranking of the first episode of Ascensore. Third place with 24 points and 10ent Joury. Second place with 61 points and 75ent Meno mal. And the startup that won over the judges of this first episode is Ciao Elsa with 73.5 points. The ranking has spoken.