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[music] My husband and I, we've been together since high school. We've separated a few times and we've even divorced each other [music] twice. So, technically, we've been married to each other three times.
Can I ever truly forgive him for being unfaithful? >> Have you ever heard me talk about the Twin Towers falling down? >> No. when it comes to marriage.
Okay. So, [music] what's going on? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show coming to you from Nashville, Tennessee, talking to real people going through real life challenges. Thank you for joining us. There's a billion podcasts out there and I'm glad that you are sitting with us. Pull up a seat, grab uh some drinks and some nachos, and we're going to figure out what's the next right move.
All right, let's go out to Dallas, Texas, and talk to Stephanie. What's up, Stephanie? >> Hi. >> How's it going? >> It's okay. It's [laughter] going. >> Oh, that means not good at all. What's up? What's up? So, um, my question is a little bit of a, I guess, 22 years in the making, but I'll give you a little bit of backstory.
So, my husband and I, we've been together since high school. Um, almost 22 years now. We separated a few times and we've even divorced each other twice. So, we've technically been married to each other three times. >> Over 22 years? >> Yes. >> Wow. Okay. Um over the course of the years we faced a lot of struggles including me having miscarriages, him being unfaithful multiple times. Um emotional abuse. We've had medical traumas with our children. One of them being carefed multiple times and being placed on life support at one point. Shortly after that, um he was unfaithful again. Uh my husband is a three-time war veteran who also struggles with PTSD. In 2022, uh he attempted suicide and he was hospitalized for about 3 months trying to deal with that. But it seems like over the course of the 22 years, it's just been one thing after the other. Um we now have five kids. Our oldest is almost 20 and our youngest is 6 months old. Uh she was a complete surprise. Hey, >> but gosh, that's what you needed on top of all this was a six-month-old. >> Exactly. >> But instead of feeling like joy, I feel that sometimes my husband blames me for having another baby, which is also painful. >> Yeah. >> Um I love him very much and we've worked really hard to make our marriage better. We've done a lot of things to pour into our marriage. Um, and I've forgiven him many times, but deep down I still have so much pain and hurt and anger. Um, I carry a lot of resentment towards him, >> I guess. So, my question is like, can I ever truly forgive him for being unfaithful, you know, despite past hurts and like work past all that resentment?
>> Have you Have you ever heard me talk about the Twin Towers falling down? >> No. when it comes to marriage. Okay, so um it's an analogy that I just love and I actually use it everywhere. The first time I heard it was from the great Esther Pel, the marriage therapist out of um New York, but she said when somebody cheats in a relationship, and I've actually I think it's much bigger than that. When you have a kid for the first time, when you get a new job or you move or you lose a job, whatever. She described the changes in a marriage like the Twin Towers have when they fell. When they were knocked down by terrorists and they fell, you couldn't sweep up all that steel and glass and wood and rebuild those towers using the old materials. You had two choices. You could walk away >> and let nature take it back over in the next 100, 200 years. It it it would, right? Or you can get in some professionals. you can excavate the whole thing and y'all can rebuild a new marriage. And it sounds like using that analogy over the last 22 years, you guys have had one thing after another after another after another. >> Yes. >> And you've tried to rebuild your marriage a number of times, which is which is right and good. I've I've got 20 different marriages. I've been married 23 years. I've got 20 new marriages. Right. We for for various reasons. Mhm. >> But y'all have tried to rebuild it on top of the existing rubble. >> Yeah. >> And so when you say you're really working on your marriage and you're doing you're y'all are working together, what you haven't ever done is excavate the whole thing and start from bedrock, from dirt. >> Yeah. And until you do that, until you can honestly have a marriage where you can put your hurts on the table and say the things out loud, because you still can't do that. >> No. >> And he's not he's not well. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Definitely not. >> And I'm not blaming him. He's just not. It's okay. I love him to death, man. And he's been through hell and back. But he's not well in a place where you could say, "Hey, this is how I feel. This is what's happened. And this is reality for me right now to where he could go, I hear that and and hold it, right? He can't do that and you can't do that. [clears throat] And so any work y'all do on your marriage is like trying to build a new building on top of a collapsed infrastructure. >> Yes. >> Okay. And so the path forward for you, yes, you could actually dig through and work on resentment, on coming together, on building a new thing. But he would have to be committed to getting well and whole. And you would have to be committed, and both of you have to be committed to excavating this whole thing out and creating a marriage where we can say the things that are true. And right now, y'all don't have that. No, >> you're both play you both play defense in your house, right? >> Yes. >> You protect him from things that are going on inside your chest. He tries to protect you from the things going on inside his heart, in his head. >> Mhm. >> And so he's got coping strategies. You've got coping strategies. And those strategies pull you both further and further apart. >> Yeah, they do. >> Instead of we are having challenges and these things bring us closer together. fighting. Conflict should be a point of connection for couples and for you guys because y'all haven't excavated the whole thing. Conflict is a point of separation for y'all. >> Yeah, that's that's definitely true. >> And so the question I have for you is what would it look like if you were to come home and say, "Hey, I we have 500 kids. I've got um child care for them. I want us to go out for half a day and clear the whole calendar. And let's pretend we're building a new marriage from scratch, from zero. How do we want this house to feel every morning when you wake up? When I get home, when you get home? How am I able to say, "I don't want to be intimate tonight. My head's full of all kinds of old junk. I'm not okay." How is he able to come home and say, "I had a really dark day. It was it was tough for me to get out of bed. And here's what um I would love from you today. Like what would that what would his response be to that? >> Um I think now more than ever he's more open to things like that. >> Okay. Um, I feel like his heart has kind of softened. Um, as our our older kids are getting older, you know, we feel that we've done all of this stuff and it's kind of messed them up. And I think that we feel um the tug more than anything to make things right. >> Okay. Um, but I don't I guess I don't even know how that would feel because I don't think that we've ever had that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Do you think he would be would entertain it? >> Yeah, I think I think that he would. Um, lately he's been more willing than I have. >> Okay. >> I've just kind of been very closed off. Yeah. >> And so lately he has been, >> you know, hey, what do you want to do tonight? Let's spend time together. And I'm just like, go away. >> Well, and and think about those kind of questions. That those are the Gotmans call them bids. That's that's his bid for connection with you. >> And for you, that's like slow dancing on top of a collapsed building. >> Yes. >> Right. And so you get in this you get in this figure eight kind of dance where he pursues you and you're like look around and then he feels rejected and then he goes off and then you're like see I knew he didn't like me or I'm not enough or it's my fault we had a baby and then he tries to reconnect and y'all just get in this dance right. >> Oh yeah. >> And so somebody if you if you haven't listened to the show very long I always say this. somebody has to turn the lights on and turn the music off, stop dancing. And it usually takes one person there. There's there's two big things here. Number one, um if y'all are up for it and y'all can I know you got a little baby and it's it's it's complex. Valentine's Day weekend this year, I've got a money and marriage conference where we're literally this year going to go through how to rebuild your marriage. Whether it's great and you're ready for like and you got a kid going off to college or whether it is just an ash because of infidelity or whatever, we're going to walk you through how to do it and you and your husband can be my VIP guest at that event. Okay. >> Okay. >> If y'all want to come to Nashville, it's a it's a long weekend. It may not work because you got a toddler and or you got a baby, you got an infant. Um so it may be tougher and y'all may not have the money to fly yourself down here to Nashville or whatever. But if y'all want to come, you can be my guest here. Okay, that's number one. Yeah. Um, and the whole weekend is about um, coming back together and rebuilding a new thing, right? The second part underneath this is you trying that out, clearing the deck, and you look at him and say, I see a softening in you. >> Mhm. >> I see your heart opening up. And I feel myself after 20 years of having to keep this whole thing together. Now that you're holding it, I'm feeling myself just wanting to let go and walk away from the whole thing. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> And if you look at him and you say those things, I see the changes you're trying to make and now I'm struggling. I want to rebuild this thing from the ground up. Are you in? >> Yeah. >> And see what he says to that. And if he says, "I'm allin. Y'all are both going to need to go see somebody together. See a counselor together." And here's more important. Mhm. >> You are both going to have to decide what do you want your house to feel like and what must be true for that to happen. >> Yeah. >> And when I say what do you want your house to feel like? I want you to feel like you can say anything that you need to say. Like hey, we have this six-month old kid and neither of us planned this. And by the way, new mom, it's okay to be really upset that you had a fifth kid on accident. It's okay. You're not a bad mom. >> You're not. You're not. >> Thank you. [laughter] >> It's okay cuz I know you're going to love this kid. I know you're going to give this kid the world. Yes. >> And it's okay that this was not in the plan at all. And here we go again. >> Yeah, definitely. >> Right. And it's also okay that your four other kids every time you had a toddler is when your husband felt like he wasn't enough around the house and he went and did something that violated his values, violated y'all's marriage values and you see this whole thing spinning up again. >> Oh yeah, right. >> That's definitely true. Yeah. >> Your body would be failing you if it wasn't sounding every alarm you have right now. It's been through this four other times. >> Yeah. >> Okay. That doesn't make you crazy. That makes your body working perfectly. And for him to be like, I have messed up four times in a row and I don't want to do it this time. I'm going to be extra attentive, extra open, extra soft in my spirit. And you being like, dude, I'm nursing a a six-month-old again. Get off of me. Right. All that is is normal. >> Okay. >> But normal is not going to cut it this time. We got to excavate the whole site and build from the floor up. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. So, I want you to ask him if he's all in to rebuild from the floor up. And I want you to be honest about the things that you need, which are food, shelter, right, and water. >> And what do you want from him? >> And I want you to be honest with him about you don't have these tools in your toolkit yet. And I want you to commit to getting these thing these tools. And what I what I mean by tools, how to just sit with a six-year-old and color for a while. >> Mhm. [clears throat] without feeling like a failure, which most dads do. How to change a diaper when you don't think you're doing it right. And so you feel like a loser and a failure. And so you go to work. And you as being able to hear from your wife who you love. Y'all been married three times. Y'all keep going around the marry ground here. This is amazing. >> Yeah. >> And and by the way, at some point, I want y'all to have individual conversations. Y'all in one side of a booth and your 20-year-old, your 17-year-old, your 15-year-old on the other side of the booth. >> Mhm. >> And I want you to be honest. We didn't do a good job. We didn't love each other. told our other our older kids, you know, we have sat them down, especially after getting remarried this last time [laughter] [clears throat] like, hey, you know, this is something that we want to do and we're we're sorry for all of the hurt, but I feel like then things happen like we talked about and it just spirals again. So, here we are back in that same you caught the spiral, though. you you caught it. And then you all commit to, okay, we're here we go. We're heading down. We're just going to turn the music off. We're going to turn the lights on. We're going to come back to the table. And by the way, it seems like some huge thing, and it is. Excavation's huge, but it it starts in little tiny steps. So, if you think about we got to excavate, we got to get some big trucks out here and some big front loaders and clean all this up. Okay, that sounds huge, but it happens scoop by scoop. Just piece of concrete by piece of concrete. What does it look like in a marriage? Every Sunday night, no matter what game is on, no matter where I've been, on what hunt I've been on, no matter how stressed we are, whatever, every Sunday night at 8:00, we sit down and we go over the calendar from the upcoming week. We go over the budget for the upcoming week and we ask each other, "How can I love you this week?" It's that small. Scoop by scoop. Every morning, every single morning, we're both going to go do something that is good for our bodies, which means the other person's going to have to warm up a bottle while you're out walking or going for a walk or going for exercise or going for coffee with a girlfriend. You are going to have to get the other three kids ready while he's off exercising before he comes back home. It is these little bitty steps that add up over time with like compound interest that change everything. It's not this huge fall off a cliff and the huge shoot back up the mountain and the fall off the cliff. It is step by step by step by step by step. So, here's the deal, Stephanie. I'm going to give you every tool I got in my toolkit to help you guys out. Number one, I'm gonna give you a year to the app. It's my marriage app. It's just daily challenges that you can do for each other. Okay, you can do it by yourself. Just it's going to give you a daily challenge to give to your spouse or y'all can link up and do it together. I'm going to give it to you for free for a year. Also, I'm going to give you my book, Building a Non- Anxious Life. I want you all two to go through that book together and use it as a road map to create peace in your house. And this could be what y'all use at your breakfast. Okay? And I'm going to give y'all Every Dollar, which is the app to get your money right. And here's what getting your money right as a couple usually does. It forces y'all to have conversations once a week. It forces y'all to have conversations about values, what we're spending our money on, how much things cost, how much we owe, all these things that create stress storms inside of a house. And I'm going to give you all a couple of VIP tickets to the money and marriage over Valentine's Day weekend if y'all are able to get to Nashville. So, I'm going to give you every tool I got in my toolkit, and it's going to be up to you all, you and your husband, to say, "Okay, we got married a third time. We're not going back down that road. We're going to stop it before we fall that we start heading downhill. One of y'all has to have the courage to turn the lights on, turn the music off, go to breakfast, clear the deck, and say, "All right, we're going to build a new marriage from the floor up. Are you in?" And hopefully he says, "I'm all in." We're going to talk about hurt. We're going to talk about pain. We're going to talk about loss. And then we're going to go do the next right things to clear this thing out and to build something amazing and new. Thank you so much for the call, sister. I'm here to support you and your husband anytime y'all need. Call me anytime. All right, when we come back, a man wonders how to stop feeling so insecure around his friends and his workplace. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. 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All right, let's roll out to Hton and talk to Sam. What up, Sam? >> Hey, Dr. John. How you doing? >> I'm doing great, brother. How are you? Uh, honestly, it's pretty good day. Pretty good day. First time in Houston, it's dropped in temperature below like 80 degrees. [laughter] >> Whoa. It's a blizzard. It's a blizzard. >> Winter. >> Yeah, man. That's where I grew up, man. Those those below 80 days are magic days, man. It's awesome. >> What's up, man? >> That's right. Yeah. So, um, man, I I feel like I've just been feeling really um it's trying to deal with uh insecurity at work and and with uh my friendships. Tell me about insecurity. What does that mean? >> So, just give you a little context, I guess. Um, [clears throat] back when I was in high school, I was, you know, diagnosed with uh OCD and that has taken many forms over the years and with, you know, great therapy and meds. Like, I'm in a really good place now. Um, but >> how extreme is yours? Um well when I was first diagnosed it was it was really bad you know washing my hands till they were you know bleeding and >> Okay. >> And it was uh it was it was it was really really rough. >> Um >> what about the thoughts? So you had high compulsion. What about thoughts? >> High Yeah. Intrusive thoughts. >> Yeah. It was it was it was pretty it was pretty intense and it was just like kind of feeling out of body like there was another voice in my head. >> Yeah. um just kind of telling me things to do that I couldn't couldn't really avoid. And uh once I got like one thing under control, it was just like felt like the next thing >> Yep. >> took over and it it latched itself onto my face for a while just telling me I wasn't good enough or I wasn't you know >> Yeah. >> It it there was just many ways that it it kind of took over and one by one just kind of tackled them through the >> cool >> years and and um now it's just man I'm really grateful. I just feel like I'm in a in a I am in a better headsp space. I just feel like I have a better understanding of that OCD voice. >> Yeah. Can I tell you this? That's that's one of my diagnostics and and from way back in the day, right? And mine wasn't as extreme as yours. It was different. Um but there is something about feeling like you can't trust your own body that is underneath all that. It's terrifying, right? >> Yeah, it is. Cuz if you can't trust you, how can the world can a can a girlfriend trust you? Or how can an an employer trust you? How can your family trust you if you don't trust you? Right. >> Yeah. >> It's exhausting. >> Exactly. Right. >> And so I want to tell you, I'm proud of you, dude. I'm proud of you for grinding it out slowly but surely. >> Yeah. I really appreciate that. It is I mean, yeah, I've never heard like that, but that is that is true. I mean, it is it's very it's very exhausting. I mean, I just I wonder sometimes if someone were to plug my brain into their head. >> No, dude. You don't Nobody, [laughter] Trust me, nobody needs to know the thoughts going on in our heads on a loop. >> Yeah. Um, but what's what's important is >> that once you can separate yourself from that voice, realizing, oh, that's not me. That's a voice in my mind. >> That's that to me is step one of victory, right? >> Yeah. >> It's amazing. >> Absolutely. So, so where are these feelings of insecurity or let me let me change that question. Take feelings off of the table. >> Yeah. >> What is proof of you're not good enough at work? >> Um I think at work it's maybe less about what's happening like at work. I feel like I'm doing pretty well in my job. I just I fall really quickly into a spirit of comparison with my peers. >> Okay. And just like, you know, we all graduated college, you know, and now we're moving on to this next stage of life where everyone's starting to get like money [laughter] >> and and it's like, wow, man. Like what they're doing at their job is maybe more impressive or more um requires more like intellect, you know, than than maybe what I'm doing. And I I just feel like maybe I could be doing more. Um, I don't I don't know. It's It's less maybe specifically with my job and more with like my friends. Like I have the best friends in the world. I I have the best best guys. I'm getting married actually in March. And so, um, super stoked about that. And these these guys are all going to be standing next to me. And I mean, I love them like brothers. Um, but I have found that I have found that lately the thing that I've been kind of hyperfocusing on, better for worst, is like we ri each other a lot, right? I mean, it's just like guys, let's look, it's just like our love language. It's just how I it's just how I connect is just we're just constantly like joking with each other and and I don't want to change the dynamic, but lately it's just I feel like I have this reputation as kind of like the idiot. Yeah, if I'm being honest, it's just I just think that I'm I don't I don't know. It's like maybe all the jokes is like it's just I'm sensing a common theme where I'm just constantly saying something dumb or I'm maybe not understanding something that they are. And I'm sure if I told them this, they would all be like, "Oh, my bad, dude. Like, we had no idea." But I I don't know if I want to do that. Like I don't want to change the dynamic because I want to I want to be able to give it and take it. >> Yeah. >> Do you know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> So >> I I think it's I don't have two PhDs cuz I'm the smartest guy in the room. I have two PhDs cuz I've always felt like the dumbest guy in the room. And I was constantly for years desperate for someone to tell me that I was smart. pathologically desperate. And so I want to tell you, whatever you think you're going to go achieve to get that sense, it's you you you can't catch it. And it wasn't until I crossed that, that what third finish line from a master's degree to a doctorate to another do the finally I was like, "All right, th this isn't the problem. The problem is I don't like myself and I am casting my own judgment on myself into the hearts and minds of my closest buddies. >> Yeah. >> And in the same way that you would never because you probably have one friend that's super anal retentive, right? that's like a nerd, like super list maker, and you got one buddy that's just kind of like dumb as a box of hair, but making a ton of money, right? You got that friend, too. >> Yeah. >> All right. You would never say something with the intent of hurting them, >> right? Of course. >> But you would definitely say something to poke and rib at them, right? >> Mhm. >> And my guess is they feel the exact same way about you. The difference is what you go looking for in the world, you are sure to find, as Bnee Brown says. And you are desperate to find people to prove to you that you're as lousy as you look in the mirror and think you are. And so you hear jokes and connection from your guy buddies as truth because it confirms the story that you already have about yourself, which is there's something wrong with you. that somehow you're not enough. >> Yeah. >> And I want to tell you that's just not true, man. >> Yeah. >> Like when I hear you talk, I hear an absolute fighter who's going to be one of the most compassionate co-workers. And what business do you work in? >> Uh I'm a financial consultant. >> Okay. Oh my gosh. Okay. You are going to be one of the most compassionate people when guys like me show up at your door freaked out about the world imploding, right? >> Yeah. >> You're going to rise through the ranks of that job so fast. Not because you're great with math. A, I can do that nonsense, but because you know how to sit with exhausted, fried, terrified people. Cuz you've been there. >> Yeah. It usually takes a while for the market to cap to catch up to that sort of relational person. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so here's what you and I both know. We share this together. That our feelings are very big and very loud and they mo most often don't tell us the truth. Fair. >> Yep. >> Okay. So cool. We have that data point. That's awesome. And so what's important for guys like me and you to do is to go do the next right thing. To ask when our feelings get really loud, to be direct with our questions in a kind way. And three, find places where we can serve other people because that changes the voice inside. That changes our internal um default setting that we are dumb and losers to. Maybe not the smartest guys in the world, but we can sit with hurting people. We can sit with people who need support and care and love because we've been there. Is that fair? >> Yeah. No, that's that's that's very fair. Would you say, and I mean this could be the OC voice talking, but would you say that there's merit in me? I because I feel like I've been overthinking a lot of my conversations now with my friends because I don't want to say stuff to them that is hurtful, you know, whether whereas before I would be like, "Bro, you are actually the dumbest man I've ever met." And we would laugh. But but now it's like I don't want to say something like that because I don't want them to take it like I don't know. Like where do I draw that line? just I mean that's just that's just you growing up and being wise. And I'm going tell you I have shifted over the years from I want to be the guy with the joke pointing out the dumb thing, >> right, >> to I want to make sure every I just got done with a 10day run with some of my oldest friends in the world. I'd speak in events all through Texas and into another state and um every step of the way I stayed with friends, went to dinner with friends, old friends, went hunting with an old friend like and I needed every one of them to know that I'm so proud of them that I love them and I'm grateful for them >> and that's a shift for me. And can I also tell you that one of those guys that I stayed at his house with his family, >> he still goes by Fat John. That's his name. and he still calls me Hyper John. So, that didn't change. Our our poking at each other doesn't change. But as you get older and you get wiser, you realize bids for connection don't have to be poke first, show up second. It can be, "Hey, dude, I love you first." >> And the old nicknames are going to This is just you getting wiser, brother. And so if you feel a sense of I'm still one of the guys, I still want to hang out. These are still my ride or these guys going to stand by me and in my wedding and hold me accountable for the rest of my life. Amazing. And it's okay to say, "Hey, before we do this, I want each one of you to know what you mean to me. And I'm going to write it out. I'm going to read it to you." That'd be amazing. >> Yeah. >> So that's where I would start with those relationships and at work. Listen, insecurity, this idea of um Kelly, what's it called when you um I just lost it. It is Oh, imposttor syndrome. I just lost it. I I felt you you just channeled into my head. So, thank you for that. Imposttor syndrome. It's simply the fear that other people are judging you as harshly as you're judging yourself. Stop. And if you got OCD, those judgment voices get loud and they get repetitive and they get on a loop. Everybody I know judges themsself way harsher than anybody else judges them. Way harsher. And so the path forward is not to think your way out of this thing, but to take the next right action. Take the next right big step. I'm really feeling myself not wanting to clown on my buddies anymore. I just want to tell them that I love them. Cool. Do that. And if they don't want to hang out with a guy that celebrates them, then that then that relationship has kind of come to its end. My guess is they'll do the same for you. And if you get tired of people piling up on you and piling up on you, ask one of them, pull them aside, go grab a drink, get some coffee, and just say, "You think I'm stupid?" And they'll be like, "No, you're the smartest guy. I know. That's why we make fun of you. That's why we give you a hard time." Or, "Yeah, dude. You say the dumbest things. That's why we love you." And you can get some of that confirmation one-on-one in a big group. Everyone's going to pile up and be silly. Um, Sam, I I'm hearing an absolute rock star. I'm hearing a guy that is about to get married who's nervous about getting married, which he should be, and excited, which you should be. I hear a guy that's transitioning from high school guy to college guy to now like grown-up guy. And you're going to see some friends make a bunch out of the gate and not out of the gate. And you're going to have friends that lose jobs. You'll lose jobs, you'll get jobs. This is just that next stage. And it feels unsettled. And when you you get unsettled, your body goes to OCD. Some people's body goes to anxious. Some people's bodies go to I don't want to get out in front of these blankets. All that's fine. It's about what am I going to do next? What actions am I going to take? And so here's what I want you to do, Sam. I want you to write yourself a letter to one month after you're married to you. And I want you to thank yourself for the things you started doing today. Congratulate yourself. Write yourself a letter on what kind of husband you're going to be, the kind of person you're going to be. Write yourself a letter about the actions you're going to take to be a great friend, great husband, great employee. And we're going to keep revisiting that. And then I want you to write each one of your groomsmen a short note that you're going to read to them face to face in front of everybody. And you may be the guy that changes that dynamic. But don't lose ribbon. Don't lose laughing. Just talking crap with your buddies. That is a great way to provide levity and joy. It's awesome. Thank you for the call, my brother. All right, we come back. A man asks how to cope with the grief of his child leaving for college. The holiday season is here and it's my favorite time of the year. 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All right, let's go out to Detroit Rock City. Talk to Dave. What's up Dave? >> Hey Dave. Sorry. Hi John. How you doing? >> I'm good brother. How are you man? You're Dave. I'm John. >> Yes. I'm sorry. Well, >> it's all good. What's up? >> All right, paint you a quick picture. I'm 45 years old. I've been married to my wife for 24 years. We have four kids. They go 19, 16, 11, and 8. Uh we have absolutely clawed our way to get to where we're at right now in our life. We have tried to do everything intentional. Um you know, my wife is absolutely my best friend. She is my counter shenanigator. We date weekly. Um we uh are best friends. We've done everything we can do to get to this point. And I am getting now to where I guess as a man I I'm I'm starting to exhale a little bit. There's been several times where her and I have been together and and we just said, you know, hey, we made it. It's like we're we're there. We're we're we're it's you can kind of start to see the fruit of your labor and um you know, we we both came from nothing. I came from nothing and I've absolutely done everything in my power to get where I'm at. Are are you talking about are you mostly talking about you you said some amazing things about your marriage and your relationship. Are you talking about >> that is where you're exhaling or are you talking about financially like you scratched and clawed and you've made money or both? Okay. >> All-encompassing. So we have uh you know we're I could have saved more money. I could have done a lot more things to put us in a lot better financial position where I'm at now. But we are in a good position now financially. We and and we live a very very fulfilling life. We're extremely active in our church. In fact, that's where we met 25 years ago. Um and we have you name it, we have it. We have houses and cars and trucks and RVs and ATVs and all this stuff that for lack of better words, we're enslaved to. But nevertheless, we and we've taken vacations and we've tried to do everything right and we've been very good at it. >> Awesome. >> So, I say that to say this. Now we're in a position in our life where um approximately 18 months ago, my oldest, my daughter, uh left for college. >> Oh god, that's the worst, dude. >> Well, I I I thought I was prepared. I thought like, yep, it's it's going to be sad and [laughter] >> you know, you know, and and like, yeah, I get it. But I want to tell you something. The minute So, we drove her to college. Uh she lives it's it's approximately 4 hours away, so it's not too too far, but yet it gives us the separation. and it gives her some freedom, but yet she's not so far from home that she can't uh reach out or we can't be there if if she needs us. So, um so 18 months ago, we drop her off at college and literally as I got in the car and I'm driving home, it hit me. It hit me so hard. >> Yeah, dude. >> And it was like it was like it's over. >> It's it's it's over. And and I and I and and it's it's like I feel like personally that I missed it. that I was so focused on clawing and scratching and getting there and getting there and the next thing and the next job and the next I mean you name it I did it. Whatever it took I got after it and my wife the same and I didn't miss anything physically. I was in every school play and I was at every birthday. It was very intentional that but I it was like a light switch and we got home and her bedroom's empty and the spot where she parks her car is empty and that portion of the house is quiet and I see photos of of long time ago when my nucleus was there >> and I feel and I can see photos of myself in the background and and I and I'm like you idiot what you missed it >> and there's there's nothing I can do about it. And it's not just because of her her leaving is what struck me. It's that it's over and and we >> Hold on. Hold on. You keep saying that. What's over? >> So when I say it's over, I think their childhood that kind of that that that that nucleus that we formed that thing that was always there when I came home and the and the noise and the chaos and at the time and I don't mean to be cliche but you know it it seemed like a hassle. >> Yeah. and looking back on it and at the time >> and I'm still do this and it's part of my personality is I'm always looking to the next thing and I I just feel like mentally I wasn't there. I didn't I didn't breathe it in. >> I didn't I didn't realize how great it was because I was too focused on the next thing. I was thinking, well, if I do this, it's going to be that much better. And to be honest, that got us to where we're at. So, it did bear some fruit. >> Hold on. Hold on. You're you're you're exchanging guilt for grief. You're you're in an effort to it feels like in an effort to avoid the fact, not that it's all over. And by the way, it is. It is. It goes so fast, dude. So fast. But it's also changing though. And for a guy that's always looking over the corn over his shoulder for the next thing, I want to prepare you for your relationship with your daughter has 50 more years to it. 40 more years to it. And it's just going to get more awesome. It's different. And she's not going to be able you're not be able to pick her up anymore, >> right? >> But it's about to get a different kind of awesome. But I want you to not try to like go to guilt. I want you just to exhale and say, "Dude, I did a good job. I scratched and clawed and yeah, I would do things differently. I got an 8-year-old, so I'm going to do some things differently." That's amazing. That's what that's what wisdom is, is learning. And for a cautionary tale for young young guys, you you can say like, "Hey, you think that these four-wheelers are going to bring you joy? They're not. But also, you've got some great memories on those four-wheelers with those kids, don't you? >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. And so, underneath all of this, can I just tell you, it's okay to just be super sad, >> right? >> A part of your heart just moved out, >> right? >> And dude, I was just I was just in far west Texas with a awesome guy. He is a manufacturing business. He makes a jillion dollars. One of the greatest, kindest guys I've ever met. We went on a wild hunting trip together. Awesome guy. And his daughter just moved out and he told me, "You think you know how bad this hurts? You have no idea, >> right?" >> And I've been I worked in resident's life. I worked in colleges for 20 years. I've hugged