Transcription
[Music] I'm going to moderate this uh panel, everything Emma. Exciting. I'm really excited to hear this. The panel members that'll participate in this discussion are Michelle Stone, Cheryl Bruno, and Maxine Hanks. So, let me kind of explain how this is going to work. I'm going to ask them to introduce themselves and to take five minutes to give their perspective on everything. Emma, so why don't why don't you start here?
Okay. Michelle asked me to introduce myself. I'm Maxine Hanks. I'm um a feminist historian of women's history and Mormonism and also a feminist theologian. I began researching polygamy in the late 80s because I thought the research and writing was too male-centric and it wasn't enough about women. So I researched polygamy in a lot of different areas: The Harmston group and LDS origins and contemporary polygamist groups and women leaving polygamy. Those are topics I've researched and um I guess that's it.
My name is Cheryl Bruno, and I have to pee also, but I hope that I hope that means that my power is all in me. So, um that would be good. Um I always said that I would never get into Mormon polygamy. I'm into Mormon history, and I thought that um polygamy was one area I didn't want to get into, but um here I am. So um about a year ago I was um very interested in what Michelle was doing, and I thought that some um Mormon historians should address it, and um nobody stepped up. So, I felt like and and there are a few that are here today that that have stepped up, but um I decided I needed to get involved in what this was all about and um and address Mormon polygamy from the side um of Joseph Smith was a polygamist. So, that's what I'm here to do. Oh, I forgot to say that I'm on the side of Joseph Smith was a polygamist. Just got to say that. So, these are three different views kind of.
My name is Michelle Stone, and I'm thrilled to be sitting by someone so powerful and wondering if I hope her power gets on me or not. Drink a little water. Um I um my YouTube channel and podcast is called 132 Problems: Revisiting Mormon Polygamy. Um people who are aware of my channel know my story. I have become by default a polygamy researcher and a historian in my own right. And I guess I am representing the unique perspective and the I will say new and growing perspective that actually polygamy in my view did not originate with Joseph Smith. And I think that um what I am thrilled about is that I believe that this is evidence of the um of of the work that I and others have been trying to do to convince more and more people that there is a conversation to be had on this topic. So, I want to thank both of my lovely panelists for joining for joining together to do this. And I I guess we're going to start by each giving a five-minute five take five minutes and give your perspective on everything else. Okay. I was just going to speak, but I decided five minutes was short, and I apologize. I have to speak quickly. I edited as much as I could.
Okay. Emma Smith is one of my personal heroines. I am amazed by her goodness, selflessness, integrity, and seemingly indestructible faith. I love her wit, intellect, independence of thought, and strength of character. I believe the best and most sound interpretation of the historical record shows that she and Joseph were an incredible team of true equals who loved the Lord and were devoted to and consistently faithful to one another. I maintain that to accurately understand Emma, it is essential to read her and Joseph's own contemporaneously recorded words and to take them very seriously. In my view, it is a tremendous error to disregard or minimize Emma's and Joseph's own words along with the numerous testimonies of those closest to them and instead claim everything they said was a lie in order to prioritize the dubious and unsupported accusations of their enemies or the admittedly recopied, problematic, and still unreleased Nauvoo journals of William Clayton or the verifiably altered history of the Utah polygamous historians or the harsh accusations made over the pulpit by a defense of Brigham Young or the decades-late affidavits systematically created by Joseph F. Smith in an admitted effort to create evidence where none existed. Emma had her own voice and told her own story repeatedly throughout her entire life. And the strongest evidence supports her. I admit it makes me a little ragy when people claim we should listen to and believe the women while constantly refusing to listen to and believe Emma.
We find the truth of Emma and her relationship with Joseph in their private letters which were never intended for public consumption. He wrote to her, "My dear Emma, I think of you, you and the children continually. My dear and beloved companion of my bosom, my heart is entwined around yours forever and ever. Oh God, grant that I may have the privilege of seeing once more my lovely family. To press them to my bosom and kiss their lovely cheeks would fill my heart with unspeakable gratitude." If you want to know, Emma, how much I want to see you, examine your feelings, how much you want to see me, and judge for yourself. I would gladly walk from here to you, barefoot and bareheaded and half-naked, to see you, and think it a great pleasure, and not never count it toil. I I cannot express my feelings. My heart is full. Oh, my kind and affectionate Emma. I am yours forever. Your husband and your true friend.
We find the truth of Emma in her rel and her relationship with Joseph in his heartfelt words recorded in his journal. With what unspeakable delight and what transports of joy swelled my bosom when I took by the hand on that night my beloved Emma, she that was my wife, even the wife of my youth and the choice of my heart. There are deep biblical allusions in that phrase, the wife of my youth, taken directly from verses that expressly forbid any man from betraying his one wife with any other woman. Oh, what a commingling of thought filled my mind for the moment. Again, she is here. Even in the seventh trouble, undaunted, firm and unwavering, unchangeable, affectionate Emma.
We find the truth of Emma in her own testimony, repeatedly given throughout her life. A non-RLDS reporter from England wrote, "Emma, Joseph's wife and secretary, the partner of all his toils, of all his glories, coolly, firmly, permanently denies that her husband ever had any other wife than herself. She declares the story to be false, the revelation of fraud. She denounces polygamy as the invention of Young and Pratt, a work of the devil brought in by them for the destruction of God's new church." Emma consistently and repeatedly testified in no uncertain terms that all the stories of her husband's polygamy were quote false and made out of whole cloth and not true in any particular. At the very end of her life, she testified there was no revelation on either polygamy or spiritual wives. "No such thing as polygamy or spiritual wifey was taught publicly or privately by my h before my husband's death that I have now or ever had had have had any knowledge of. I know that he had no other wife or wives than myself in any sense either spiritual or otherwise."
Finally, we find the truth of Emma and her relationship with Joseph in their 11 children, nine that they conceived together, including the child she was carrying at the time of his death. Joseph exchanged no loving letters, recorded no husbandly sentiments, and fathered no children with any woman other than Emma, the only woman who shared his home, his name, his burdens, his finances, his children, and grieved his loss as his widow. These facts to me powerfully attest to Emma's honesty and support the truthfulness of Joseph and Emma's consistent testimonies given throughout their lives that she was indeed his one and only wife. I believe we should listen to [Applause] Emma.
I've been told that my superpower is seeing different perspectives, and this is certainly true for Emma Smith. I love Michelle's personal and and um heartfelt uh portrayal of Emma, but other sources present different views. There's um there's really a reason why her biographers call her a Mormon enigma. If we assume that Emma was aware of her husband's polygamy, which I do and um many others do, um then her denial is perplexing. Polygamy affirmers must explain her denials. I'm going to use my superpower to briefly suggest some possibilities. And of course, one possibility is that she that Joseph never practiced polygamy. Okay, that's one possibility. But I hope that you'll open up your minds to realize that there are many other possibilities. I'm going to give you five. One, she may, and you might you might agree with me, you might disagree with me, but that's okay. And I'll tell you which one I like the best. She may have felt bound to keep polygamy secret. Emma's denials could have been carefully worded following patterns used by early church leaders. Nauvoo era statements distinguished between false forms of polygamy and the pure authorized version, allowing technical honesty while refuting accusations. Utah saints rationalized their own plural marriage denials of the 1840s. But ironically, once they went public with the doctrine in 1852, they did not allow Emma the same privilege.
Second reason, she may not have fully understood the sexual nature of Joseph's plural relationships. Lucy Merve Smith remembered that at some point in Nauvoo, quote, "Emma had told me that Joseph's plural wives were only sealed for eternity. They were not to live with them and have children." Emma's reported distress over discovering Joseph with Eliza Partridge indicates a shift from reluctant acceptance to outright rejection. This traumatic experience may have led to dissociative amnesia, making her later denials psychologically genuine rather than deceptive.
Third, Emma never fully consented to Joseph's marriages and perhaps never physically observed any of the sealings. Later narratives about Emma's participation in Joseph's sealings may have overstated her involvement. Emma may have thought that she could deny her husband's involvement in polygamy because she felt it did not come within her immediate observation. In 1846, she wrote to Thomas Greg stating, "Everything that has not come within my immediate observation remains doubtful in my mind until some circumstance occurs to prove the report either true or false." Such a statement seems reminiscent of her earlier instructions to the Relief Society sisters to follow the teachings of J. Smith as he spoke them from the stand, meaning publicly and officially. Emma may have given herself and others permission to ignore rumors of secrets which she did not personally observe or which were not officially taught.
Fourth, this is the one that Brigham Young and and um Eliza R. Snow are for. Um, Emma actively worked to suppress evidence of polygamy. Um, this is this is Brigham and Eliza R. Snow's view that she was one of the damnedest liars that ever lived on this earth. You've heard that one, right? There are many reasons she might have lied. She might have felt betrayed by Joseph. She could have been trying to preserve his reputation or her own or to protect her children or to delegitimize Brigham Young's leadership.
The fifth one is the one that I um feel the strongest about, and it's sort of like the fourth one except for it's more of um rather than defense is offense, right? Um so number five I have: she was actively shaping historical memory rather than simply being dishonest or in denial. Um this I like because it shows Emma as a strong woman. um Documentation suggests that Emma privately acknowledged Joseph Smith's polygamy at times while publicly denying it. Just a few that I um will bring up. There's I think there's many. Um one is a William Law statement indicating that she was aware of its contents despite later denying its existence. Two is William Clayton's July 12th, 1843 journal entry which demonstrates a moment of clear knowledge and confrontation. Um, another is Elmyra Dunham who speaks about Joseph and Emma quarreling about the principle, suggesting her clear awareness of it. Rather than seeing her denials as deception or cognitive dissonance, they can be understood as a deliberate act of historical revisionism. By shaping Joseph's legacy, Emma ensured that the RLDS movement could reject polygamy while preserving his image as a monogamous prophet. Emma wasn't merely resisting polygamy. She was actively crafting Joseph's historical image, erasing evidence and imagining and managing relationships with plural wives. If this perspective is true, Emma was not just a grieving widow or a wronged wife. She was the architect of Joseph Smith's posthumous legacy. With a steady hand, she rewrote the narrative, silencing inconvenient truths and ensuring that the prophet she presented to the world was one of her own [Music] [Applause] making.
Okay. In thinking about um putting women at the center and putting Emma at the center, uh my question has long been what did Emma know and when did she know it and how did she respond to it? And that raises other questions. How do we define plural marriage or relationships? In other words, when did it begin? When did Joseph actually begin? Does it begin in 1836 with Fanny Alger, or does it begin earlier? Does it begin with relationships with other women? And so I found myself looking at the historical record and wondering when does it begin and when does Emma first know? And I mean does it begin in 1828 with Eliza Winters? These are all reported affairs reported by other people. Does it begin then? Does it begin um gosh in um sorry I lost my notes. um in 18 um 32 trying to follow my own notes here on my phone. Uh 1830 with the accusation about the the Josiah Stole's two daughters that he was inappropriate or had some kind of relationship with them. Does it begin in um 1832 with the accusation that he was having something going on with Miranda Johnson and that that was the reason for the tarring and feathering? Um does it begin with a reported Miss Hill who kind of resembles Fanny Alger? Does it begin um with Clarissa Reed who is Emma's housemaid for a while in 1832 and 33 who leaves and is reported to have said that she thought she might have a relationship with Joseph Smith might become one of his plural wives because she and Emma had gotten along so well, which is a really interesting reference. So does it begin with Clarissa? Does it begin when um Fanny Alger uh and Joseph are found together? Or when she is reportedly sealed to Joseph, which we know through the work of Don Bradley um in 1836 that there's actually a sealing that a ceiling right that happens in the Kirtland Temple. So when does it begin? Does it begin later uh with Lucinda Morgan Harris in Missouri? When does it begin? And when does Emma find out? And when I look at these reports, and you know, these are third-hand reports, all of them. Um, but when I look at the reports, it seems to me that that she found out pretty early. Uh, I think likely before Fanny Alger, perhaps with with Clarissa Reed. Um, and who knows who knows what she knew about Eliza Winters in in Harmony, but clearly there there are enough references to Emma's reaction and other things surrounding that with Fanny Alger in 1836 that it seems to indicate that at the very least she knew about that because Fanny Alger is forced to leave, her family taken away.
Um another thing I find really interesting um, in thinking about the women who Joseph is involved with over time and what what that constitutes. Are they affairs? Does he see them all as spiritual soulmates who he's spiritually sealed to? And if Fanny is the first who's really sealed to him, then is she the first legitimate plural relationship? One thing I find really intriguing is what Eliza R. Snow says in when she's interviewed by by Jensen, Andrew Jensen. And again, this document was found by Don Bradley. Um where she says that one of the first wives Joseph married was Fanny. So Eliza says Fanny was one of the first wives. She doesn't say Fanny was the first one. I think that's really telling. If Fanny is not the first one, then who are the other first wives that Eliza is referring to? And I consider Eliza a really good source. Anyway, um, another kind of signal that I take seriously is the early the early original section 101, the 1835 section 101 from the 1835 Doctrine of Covenants that is denouncing these rumors that this church of Christ is rumored to the church is reproached um, for having supposedly the crime of polygamy and fornication. And so section 135 is denouncing uh and it begins by or it says in as much as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife and one woman and one husband except in the case of death when either is at liberty to marry again. Well, because this is 1835, the year before Fanny is sealed to Joseph, it's pretty early. And that signifies that there are concerns and accusations floating around. So I consider it a pretty good pretty good sign. Anyway, I want to shift from there really quickly to Emma at what point she knew. So I think definitely she knows when when Fanny um is involved with Joseph and that sealing happens.
So what do I think about Emma and how do I think she reacted? And I as I thought about this, I the more I thought about it, I I thought in the historical record, the accounts that we do have, she reacts very negatively um very hostily and and very much wants to stop this and wants the women who have betrayed her in these circumstances to leave. And yet the what I want to say about Emma tonight is that I don't see her as really focused on this. I see polygamy as the shadow side of the church. I see Emma is focused on her role in the restoration as co-founder with Joseph. I think she's completely absorbed with her role as a a kind of a prophetist co-prophet with Joseph and Oliver. And she's absorbed with her role as the elect lady ordained to the highest one of the three highest church offices in 1830, and she's obsessed with fulfilling this incredible role of female leadership that is historically revolutionary at that time. And she devotes all of her time to fulfilling these roles the best she can, creating the first hymn book, which is a sacred book of scripture, you know, as important as the Book of Mormon in some ways, and she continues to mother the church and mother everyone who comes in and takes them into her home and takes in all these young women as housemaids and so many others. So I see Emma as much more focused on her own ecclesiastical role and authority, and that's her focus, and I think she only deals with polygamy when she's really forced to because it really is the shadow side of the church, and Emma represents equality. She represents a woman with authority. And she says in the very last meeting of the Relief Society in March of 1844, it's one of my favorite quotes. I It's in the introduction to my first book. Eliza records that Emma said that she had as much authority as anybody, and she had it yet. And that's a major statement about Joseph, Oliver, and Brigham and all of the other men. Emma's claiming that she had as much authority as anyone. And I think that's something to really think about. Anyway, that's all I had to share. [Applause]
Thank you for sharing your perspectives. Um, let's start off here with some uh questions. What are some of the main documents you rely on that shape your perspective on Emma? Do you want to go first? You want me to go? Mhm. Well, as I said in my um in my statement, I I do prioritize Joseph and Emma's own firsthand words. I love their letters to one another. I love um I made I made a list, but I don't have my um source up so I could remember the documents I rely on. But um I rely on contemporaneously recorded accounts directly from Joseph and Emma. Their published statements at those times are some of the things that I sent her. And then I go out from there to things that were recorded by those closest to them and most closely recorded at the time of their life. And and when I go in that order, that gives me my perspective. And I think I think that's a historically defensible way to prioritize documents.
Thank you. Anybody else want to take that? Um, so I've found many documents can be read both ways, of course, because that's me. Um, so whenever Michelle brings out documents of how much Joseph loved Emma, I think, well, you know, you can love two people. I mean, I'm sure many people in the audience have loved two people at the same time. And um I find that I find that not as um I mean I find every almost every document I find I feel like can be it it can show that Joseph was not practicing polygamy. Can show that he was, but the ones that I prioritized um may be much later um but they are al they were they were um primary documents, right? So they're later documents, but they're primary documents because the woman is actually talking about what she her lived experience, right? And so there are um accounts by Eliza R. Snow and um there...
Are accounts that come from later Utah that I do rely on, even though I understand that they're later, and I understand that they could be, um, reminiscences that have changed over time. But I do feel that these women, um, were telling the truth and that they had relationships with, um, with Joseph. And so I rely on these to, um—I mean, Joseph and Emma are, as Michelle said, they're so inextricably entwined that you can hardly see Emma without seeing Joseph. So, but, um, I do believe that she was dealing with his polygamy, right? And so I use those documents to show what she had to deal with, and, um, they really shaped my view of Emma as well. Thank you.
So yeah, I, um, keep getting lost here in my—when I think about sources on Emma, we don't have a journal. We don't have a journal of Emma. And boy, do we wish we did. And I wonder why she didn't record more, or if she did record a journal and destroyed it later. I wondered if she destroyed it later. It's odd that we don't have one. She was an eloquent writer.
Uh, so we rely on her letters basically. And then other documents. I, I, um, when it comes to sources and trying to piece together history, there's a lot of information in the scriptures and the Doctrine and Covenants, you know, a lot. And that, that tells us a lot. And, um, and then there's, of course, the Voice of Innocence, the document that is produced by the members of the Relief Society, Emma and the women, um, vouching for their, their innocence and their morality and their purity against, you know, all the bad press from Bennett's activities.
Um, and then I, I, I look for clues in the historical record as to how people—this is kind of the third tier—how people are describing her. You know, Lucy Mack Smith's description of Emma is beautiful. She, Lucy is Emma's biggest fan, and her descriptions are really quite powerful of Emma's integrity and, um, and, and so also other reports, the descriptions of Emma, excluding Brigham Young's, which were—I'll use his, his, uh, version of Lucy's memoir—I'd say that Brigham Young's descriptions of Emma were a tissue of lies. Um, but you know, the, the way people describe her, um, is, is very telling. And, and so in historical work, we're piecing together references, and we're looking at how references might mirror other references. And even though we do—like we love contemporary primary documents if they're close to the time when things were happening—still documents and statements that come out later are full of richness, and, and we look for the clues in those documents that, that connect to things that we do have in earlier documents that suggest that this person's description or memory 20, 30, 40 years later, 50 years later, actually has some truth because it matches up to some, some, um, elements in earlier documents. And so I, I like to look for clues in people's writings and how they match up. For example, what Eliza R Snow says, um, about, um, Fanny years later.
So, um, yeah, I guess that's how—there are also—who was it, Buddy? Was it Buddy Young? Who was it that Buddy? Yeah, who interviewed, um, Emma's descendants, and there were really interesting, uh, bits of information that came from Emma's descendants, that things that have been passed down in the family, and that's a really important source. Anyway, so I just want to respond real quick to Maxine because, um, I find it really interesting that we have, um, L. Mack Smith's, um, wonderful description of how Emma could do no wrong. And then we have Brigham's, and, and, and also William Clayton's, um, um, descriptions of Emma as well. And I feel like, for me, I don't want to throw out anybody's description, I want to—even though Brigham is hard to listen to, um, I—Brigham was centering himself, right? And so his, his, um, documents that we get from Brigham are valuable. Even though he was centering himself, we still get bits and pieces of what was happening. Same with William Clayton. His journal is definitely centering himself, but we then still get these bits and pieces. And I think Lucy Mack as well was talking about her relationship with Emma, which was a very wonderful relationship. We have Joseph Smith III who also talks about his view of his mother when he was 11 years old or younger. So, um, I like to gather all these things together and, um, see, you know, just what the balance is.
Can I add one, one small thing? And because I want to respond also to what Cheryl is saying because actually we have that in common. I—all three of us—I would say all of the documents are important. The challenge we have on this topic is that the documents are so contradictory. So all of us are forced to study the documents and try to piece together what makes the best sense to us, right? And each of us has to really independently, through our wrestle with the documents and our other ways of knowing, make these decisions. And so what I really appreciate about this panel and about what we're trying to do here is what I hope we can stop doing is demeaning people who disagree with us and say, "Oh, you don't care about the documents or you're just so naive or you're ignorant or you don't know this," and understand that each of us really is—I, I am aware of all of the documents that Cheryl and Maxine are—well, Maxine might not agree, but, but you know, I'm aware of the documents, and when I look at them I do my own evaluation of them, and I think my evaluation is defensible, and so that's what I'm hoping is that we can start to understand that the documents are not clear, and when someone says, "I believe that person was telling the truth," by default they are saying, "I believe that person or those people are not telling the truth." That's one of the reasons this is so complex—many missing pieces of the puzzle, huh? Okay.
Can I add one quick thing? Oh, sorry. Um, just along with what you both said, there are some real gems in, uh, really negative accounts. So whether it's Brigham, or whether it's Joseph Jackson, or whether it's exposés of the temple, there—you can find some real gems of truth, historical truth, in these really negative, hostile accounts, because oftentimes people don't realize how much they're revealing when they're railing against somebody, and, and there, there are some amazing little gems that come through. Um, one of my favorite—this is off topic, but a woman who was writing an exposé of the temple happened to reveal that, that part of the motto or that was supposed to be in the Nauvoo temple was, um, the Shekinah—that Shekinah was supposed to be included in that motto along with, um, the, the house of the Lord or holiness to the Lord and the Shekinah of heaven. So that blew me away because that came from a hostile exposé of the temple. So you never know what you're going to find.
So we do rely a lot on Emma's writings, and, uh, she was a very skillful and powerful and beautiful writer. So how do you interpret Emma's final blessing that she wrote on behalf of Joseph? Who wants to go first? I'll go. Um, I, I love this blessing. If you don't know what he's referring to, um, right before Joseph went to Carthage, Emma asked him to give her a blessing. And he said he didn't have enough time, but if she would write the blessing out and he—when he came back, he would sign it. So, we have this beautiful blessing that Emma has written to herself. And it's really—it, it is—I think one of the most—I should probably put it for my favorite document about Emma. It really is because it, it kind of gives us an idea of what she wants, um, what blessings she would like to have, you know, what she desires from the Lord. And it really is a beautiful blessing.
Go ahead. Um, yes, and I do recommend that anyone that's not familiar with this blessing, please read it because it is really important. And, um, I know that some people interpret portions of this blessing as evidence of Emma's wrestle with polygamy and sort of maybe a repentant view of it, but I do—I see in this Emma's desire for goodness. It is another thing that makes—I think all of us love Emma. You see her heart. I think personally that it is challenging to read polygamy in this final blessing. I think you have to have that already in your mind and be looking for it to find it here because the blessings that she asks for are so, um, widespread. She wants discernment. She wants the wisdom and the ability to raise her children that have been entrusted to her. She wants to fulfill everything she came on earth to do. She wants—she just has this, um, um, like—Emma sacrificed everything throughout her life for her beliefs, right? She sacrificed her comfortable upbringing, her relationships with her family, having a solid home, having—I mean, she put her whole life in, she put her whole lot in with Joseph and took on everything that he was experiencing. And she did that because she was a woman of so much faith. And I love that even up until the end of Joseph's life, we get to see what blessings she desires for herself. She doesn't wish for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, right? She doesn't wish for comfort and ease. She—she wishes to fulfill all of the purposes that she came to earth to fulfill in the most meaningful way.
I love your passion, Michelle. You always like get me energized in my old age. Um, you know, I tend to always look at Emma in terms of authority. And I, I love that blessing because the first thing that struck me when I came across it—and, and it is debated like a little bit among historians what—how—I don't know how accurate or real it is, but I think it's—I think it's real. Joseph knows he's going to his death. He's been telling the Relief Society for some time that he doesn't know how much longer he's going to have. And I see him deferring authority and equality. It's a recognition of Emma's equality and her own prophetic role and gifts when he defers to her and says, you know, "you have the revelation and I'll sign it." Because Joseph loves giving revelation. He loves that more than anything. And his wife—he loves more than anyone. And he's probably thinks he's going to his death. It's like—it's an opportunity. He's not—Joseph is not going to pass up that opportunity to give this amazing revelation for his wife. But he defers to her to receive her own revelation, and he will sign it. I think it's really powerful. I think it's a—it's a sign of him in a way passing authority onto her, and I also see it as almost a continuation of Section 25. It's like Section 25 continued later on. But I just find it really signifying her equality and his, his recognition of her prophetic role as co-founder and co-leader of the church. I just have to say, wow. Thank you. Amen. That's beautiful. When Joseph gave women the ability to bless others, and and his last act was to remind Emma she always had that power. That was awesome.
Okay, this next question comes, uh, virtually. So, you know, we talked about the, uh, conscious and unconscious minds, and, uh, this question is going to take us into a different dimension. If we could, uh, interview Emma today, if we could talk to her, how do you think she would feel about the current state of women, the priesthood, and the greater culture and the modern church? I assume we mean the modern LDS church. Maybe people can interpret that as they wish to. So, can you kind of restate that to make sure I— Sure. Got it. If we were able to interview Emma and talk to her personally, what do you think she might say? We're using our imaginations here based upon our perspective of her. Uh, what do you think she would say about the current state of women? Oh, and about the priesthood and about the greater culture in the modern church. Do you want me to go?
Um, I'll just say—make, make a little remark. Um, I, I have read the Relief Society minutes many times. So have many of you, and we see Emma throughout the, um, the Relief Society minutes. She, she participates a lot right at first and a lot right at the end. And, um, I feel like that she recognizes that she has power. In the very beginning, like the first meeting of the Relief Society, um, the men were trying to name the Relief Society, and she stood up and said—this is why—she explained why she didn't like the—I guess they were wanting it to be a female benevolent society, which, um, those were, um, quite popular at the time, and she did not want it to be the same thing as other women had. She wanted it to be unique, and she, um, stood up and opposed the men who were, who were, um, advocating for that. And you see her several times in the Relief Society being very strong and, um, and using her power, her feminine power. And so I think that she would want to see, um, women have more power in the church. Um, I think that we've seen—like especially Maxine and I are a little bit older than Michelle. We've seen a lot of change in the church, and I think much of it has been good. Um, that we have more power in the church than we had maybe back in the 70s, um, 80s. I remember, um, especially a time when I, um, had spent a lot of time, um, putting together a Relief Society birthday, um, um, presentation, and my bishop told me I could not give it, and I had to just swallow and say, "Okay, we'll do something else." And, um, I don't think that would happen today. Well, not in very many places. I think that men are—men recognize, um, women's, uh, skills and, and talents, um, much more than they did years ago. And so, but I, I think that Emma would feel that we still had a way to go just to get back to where she was. I think we still have a way to go.
I think first of all, I think sometimes as I've been reading through these documents, the incredible frustration—with my view—that Emma must have felt when there's a quote of hers where she said the Utah Mormons with Brigham Young have made all of the vile slanders against my husband true, right? And so where she tried to say, "This is who I am, this is who my husband was," and her voice was not listened to—I, I, I can't imagine the devastation of that, of having her story, her legacy stolen from her, from people who did not value her or women the same way that her husband did. I think of Joseph and Emma. I do—I love the insight shared as this team of equals. I—some people know my working model of the Proclamation on the Family. The way I say it to myself is as equal partners, husband and wife preside over their family in love. That's what works for me. And I believe that's what Emma and Joseph modeled. And I think it's fascinating to see, um, Brigham Young and Mary Ann did not have that same relationship. Brigham Young did not view women the same way that Joseph did. They, they weren't a team of equals the same way. And so we've, we've gotten this division where, where there was this effort to put women—if you see women huddle, females huddling together—veto the concern, right? We, we have this power divide and this effort to put women down, and then this effort for women to claw their way back, right? And it, and it has a tendency to create a division where I think what Joseph and Emma modeled—and I think the wisdom that Emma would give us today—is partnership, unity, relying on each other, equality, bringing these complimentary and equal sexes together in unity because of what we create when we are joined that way.
Again, I, I love Michelle's energy. Um, I think Emma would know exactly what we preserved and what we lost. Uh, she knew the structure inside and out. That's why she made a beeline to have, uh, William Marx, um, instituted as the leader before Brigham could get back to town. Um, she knew exactly what Joseph and she and others had set up that was a ministry and an authority that had checks and balances and that had, uh, inclusion of women as equal partners. And, and so I mean, I think that—well, when, when Brigham and, uh, Heber Kimball began changing things—particularly Brigham in 1845—you know, she accused them of making bogus of the church. She was pretty mad, and she put a curse on them. Unfortunately, it didn't work, but she did put a curse on them according to Mike Quinn's work. Uh, but she accused them of making bogus of the church—that they had changed so much, you know. And so I think that she would say—she would say, "What happened to women's authority and equality? Uh, let's—you're still laboring under some changes Brigham made." And I think she would see it very clearly. [Applause]
This again comes from, uh, someone watching, tuning in. Do you believe that Emma's carefully worded denials are deceitful or is lying for the Lord? Meaning okay in the sight of God? I don't think anything about Emma's denials were carefully worded. Um, I think Emma was clear, consistent, repeated throughout her life. And, and I think it's—Yeah, I think—I think we need to listen to women's voices. Trigger warning. I'm triggering. I apologize. I feel that Joseph's words—or I feel that Emma's words were carefully worded. Um, I think you can read them. I, I think you can read into them. Um, I feel that Emma was aware of Joseph's polygamy. Um, and what is it say? Did the question ask, um, tell me—do you believe that she was lying—lying for the Lord? Okay. So yes, I, I think that she was, um, telling, um, untruths for a higher purpose. I really feel like she thought that she was, um, leading in a way that, um, Joseph would have wanted and that the Lord would have wanted, and so that, that's why she, um, said the things that she did.
So this kind of shows our three positions here because I think Emma was very, very honest. Um, I don't see her as lying, but she was choosing her words very carefully. I, I think that Emma did not recognize any of those relationships as real marriage, and she was honest by saying, "I'm the only wife he had. He didn't have any other wives." And so, I see it as her putting forth her theological premise that she was never going to recognize those relationships as marriages. So, I see it as her doing her own theology. She's theologizing by saying that those are not marriages. I'm—He was only married to me. He wasn't married to anyone else. And I think she was honest about that. And it's, it's been kind of in vogue lately to criticize Emma and Eliza as liars, you know, and as shills for the patriarchy. You know, I'm seeing a lot of presentist stuff coming from some younger feminists these days about that. And I can understand why it can be interpreted that way because, you know, polygamy was secret, private, in the shadow side of the church, and the women are focused on their ecclesiastical role, their ecclesiastical authority. So that's what they're talking about in public. But, um, and so there is this, you know, public versus private version of the story. But, um, I do see Emma as sincerely denouncing theologically those relationships as real, as real marriage. And I remember one day on Facebook people were attacking Emma and saying what a liar she was and, and she was in on it, and, and I jumped up and really pushed back and really defended Emma. And Linda Newell came on. She saw me doing that and she said, "Maxine's right. You listen to her. She's right. Emma was sincere." And I think it was one of the last exchanges I had with Linda Newell before she died. And it meant so much to me. Linda Newell, you know, the biographer, she, she co-authored, uh, Mormon Enigma, um, the book about the first real biography of Emma. And Linda Newell insisted to the end that that Emma was quite sincere in her denials, um, and, and refusing to recognize those marriages as legitimate, even though she was very kind to the women, took care of them, but didn't really recognize the marriages.
I think it's amazing that we all have such different views, and yet I think that we all feel like Emma was sincere. I'm not saying she wasn't, but, um, it would take a long time to explain, you know, but I think you all get, um—but it's so cool how we all have such an admiration for Emma, and yet we can see it all in a little bit different way. If Emma was on Facebook and, you know, today and it said, "in a relationship,"
Would I say it's complicated? No, it wouldn't. [Applause] [Laughter] Okay. No disagreeable in that interchange. That's good. That's good. Okay.
So, sometimes we ask questions because we're curious, and sometimes we just want to clarify things. Uh, but sometimes questions are motivated because we might disagree. Uh, here's another audience question for Cheryl and Maxine: What leads you to believe that Emma's statements denying Joseph's polygamy were motivated and unreliable, but not the later statements from other women? Couldn't they also be motivated and unreliable?
I'll let you know, sir. Thanks. Take it away.
Um, yes, I believe that the later student statements can be motivated and unreliable. And um, Michelle and I are actually writing an article together um about the 1869 affidavit by um Utah women in 1869. We're writing a book, not just an article. Well, yes, we're writing articles and books and everything else and having conferences and starting journals and everything. What else?
Um, I should say, can I just quickly—I'm sorry, I don't want to interrupt you. The reason we're doing this panel and doing it after Jere—um, after Jerry's gave us this peacemaking talk—is because of the many nights that Cheryl and I have spent on the phone in heated conversations about Emma. So, we're both on our best behavior. Yes, we are. We've yelled, we've cried, we've done all kinds of things. But um, let's see—the so yes, I I do—um—I feel that um, you know, telling the truth is kind of a funny thing because like it's really hard to tell the truth. What is the truth? It's, you know, it's hard; you can tell your perspective. And I think that many of the women in later Utah, um, well, the 1869 affidavit, we have a certain view of, and we feel that this was not the women's voices. So, yeah.
So, in answer to that question, yeah, there definitely—we have affidavit, later affidavit that were not the women's voices, but then we do have um some of the women giving their own stories from years later. And I feel like those—yes, we have to look at those with a grain of salt. Um, because they're so many years later, because they are motivated, and you know, and so I I kind of feel like about them the same way that I I feel about Emma's statements. But later on, it's safe to tell the truth when polygamy is talked about in public. And there's no such thing as a perfectly objective, 100% honest, pure source. Every single source, every every person's perspective, including Joseph and Emma's and Brigham's, they're all biased. So there's no such thing as a pure source. You have to you have to look at the context and what are what is their statement responding to? It's always responding to something, you know. And so there are problematic, dishonest sources in Nauvoo and there are problematic, dishonest sources in Utah. And there are, I think, starkly honest, accurate, pretty accurate sources in Nauvoo, and some really starkly honest, accurate sources out in Utah. And it's the historian's job to sift through all those and try to figure out, you know, how honest is this source being right now? And what are they responding to? Because there are always subtexts in in every uh source, and and they're responding to something overtly on the surface, and then deeper they're probably responding to two or three other things. But there was a fair amount of dishonesty in Nauvoo and in Utah, and and a lot of honesty, too. But I I I consider women's sources mostly, not always, but mostly pretty reliable. I take all of the women seriously, but I look at the context they're speaking within and and what they're trying to defend. You know, looking at the subtext.
I know I wasn't asked, but can I just say—I, for me, I think it really comes back to what I had spoken to earlier—that we have a body of evidence, right, and we have to choose how to prioritize and how to weigh the different pieces of evidence, and so I think that all of us, as I said before, has to decide which sources bring us closer to the literal truth rather than a perspective or a motivated claim, and which ones are further away, and I think that that's like—like, you know—Emma's claims are a strong source for my perspective. There are other source sources that are strong for the other perspective that I have to figure out what to do with. And that's just the nature of history in general, but in particular on this topic.
So, this is where we would start to fight because I'd say, who gets to decide, you know, I thought, who gets to decide? And I'm bigger, Cheryl. I'm older. [Music] What? Somebody said Maxine's wiser. No, I'm just older. Really old. I'm like turning 70 this year. It's not fun. Let's see if we have one more question—for one more question. My mom's 90 and she agrees with me. Okay. She's—she's got me. Yeah. Who can who can disagree with Janine Brady? Yeah. There you go. Okay.
We got 5 minutes left. So, we're going to do one more question, and I'm I'm going to ask the question from me. Um, came up for me while I was sitting there. Uh, so, have you ever felt that you've received spiritual impressions in in in the perspectives that you formed?
I'm always going first. Of course. Of course. Um, yes. Um, I have received many spiritual impressions. Um, but I, you know, I hate to say this, but I don't always trust my spiritual impressions. I I usually—um—I'm usually not sure about my spiritual impressions, to be honest. My followup question to that was, okay, is it possible that the spirit would give us different spiritual impressions about questions that we have?
I think absolutely, because we see that happening throughout history, and we also have our own biases, subconscious ways of knowing, ways of thinking. I I do very much value my relationship with what I consider to be the divine and that way of knowing. I also recognize it, I think similarly to what Cheryl—I I think we would agree—as one of the ways I have of knowing. I love that the doctrine of covenant says by your by by study and by faith, right? And we are supposed to bring these different pieces of evidence together. I think I would be on very poor footing if as a historian doing historical work, I said, "Pray about whether Joseph or was a polygamist and then you'll have your answer." I—that's not something I would say. People are of course free to do that, but I wouldn't I I wouldn't defend my stance that way. So, I do think that we can be um led by the spirit, but I and I think it's one way of knowing, and then we engage with others and engage with the evidence and engage with all the other ways of knowing and hopefully bring integrate it all. Right. And when Michelle and M—um—and Maxine and I speak together, when we talk together, um, a lot of times we'll—um—we'll recognize that um, you know, this isn't a subject that we can—um—count on our spiritual impressions to answer, right? This is something that we're looking at documents. We're looking at history. We can't—um—you know, we can't answer whether, you know, Emma was aware of Joseph's polygamy with a spiritual impression, you know, and apparently we can't answer it with documents either.
I have to just—I'm so sorry. I have to interrupt the panel on Emma to tell my husband I just got a phone call from Brigham. That's my 16-year-old cake. That's funny.
You know, spiritual impressions are really tricky. The numinous spiritual realm is is hard to decipher, and sometimes we can't tell if it was just ourselves, you know, our own wishful thinking or if it was something that came from beyond us. But I I'm one of those people—and lucky people—who has the God gene. Um, and so I get all kinds of spiritual impressions and warnings and foreshadowings and promptings. And so there are times in my research and work and analyzing things that I do get really strong spiritual impressions, and I feel like I'm being guided. Uh, but again, like Cheryl said, I can't I don't trust them 100%. I always question them and and I always test them. I I take an impression or a prompting and then I kind of look to see how it plays out later if I was right or wrong. Um, but I've had a lot of spiritual impressions about Joseph Smith and Emma. I remember when a bunch of us went out to Nauvoo for a feminist pilgrimage. In fact, Margaret was there and Janice was there in 19—20—sorry—2002. 2002. And what an experience that was. I mean, a bunch of us were having kind of spiritual experiences out there. We were staying in Nauvoo and we were going to all the sites. And I remember at Carthage, I was standing next to the well where Joseph's body fell when he was shot. And I'm standing next to that well. And in that moment, I I had the most overwhelming feeling of just of Emma being there with me. And it wasn't even Joseph, it was Emma that I felt. And later when we got back home, we all compared pictures. Mary Beth Reigns had taken a picture of me standing there, and I happened to be wearing all black. Um, which was kind of my thing back then. And it's it's it's it's an interesting picture because it's—when I look at that picture, I see Emma as much as I see myself. And I felt like her spirit was there at that moment. And I didn't didn't know why. Um, but and and so I think that these spiritual experiences bring clues and they help guide us. Mike Quinn always said that he would pray and sometimes fast before he would begin researching to ask to be guided to the right documents and have the right things come to him. And they he said they always did. He said, "How how else do you think I found all these sources?" Um, and he—I asked him one time, I said, "Does it feel like sometimes there's somebody on the other side of the veil just handing you stuff?" And he said, "Yes, how do you think how do you think I find all these sources?" And I've experienced that same thing. Uh, and I do think I do think that that Joseph and Emma and our four mothers and I I think they are aware of us. I think they want to help us figure it out. Thank you.
Let me just wrap it up real quick. First of all, I want to personally thank each one of you for your transparency, for your willingness to be vulnerable. Uh, I appreciated your articulation, your discussion. I think you're a great example to all of us on how to move forward around this very sensitive issue of Mormon polygamy. Thank you so much for being that example to us all, and uh, thank you for sharing your perspectives. Thank you. Thank you. [Applause] [Music]