Andrew Wilson Is A Grifter | Debate

[Music] Generally, generally, uh, here's what actually happened. I'm really mad that does it make right? >> Stop. The deregulation of the industry is obviously going to cause more of that industry >> to lubricate the trust connection between people until they have enough. >> Yet, we could still look at biological reality and determining who's a female, even if there are >> Why don't you deny, denounce feminism the same way you're denouncing? You can't believe if you don't. For something to be objective, it needs to be verifiable, and you can't verify. >> If I make a claim as a political pundant, it is true that I definitely could be wronging, right? >> Ideologies that make them politics, right? This is my ideology. This is so 2015. Anyone go back and watch the footage? The first go today. [Music] Heat. Heat. And good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back. I am Sarah, the Raging Tomato, bringing to you another live debate. I have with me Josie Marcelino. Did I say it right? Mar, is it Marelino? Okay. Marcelino, but I'll give you Marcelino. >> I wanted to say Marelino. I was thinking that too. Uh, but anyways, Josie Marelino and of course, Andrew Wilson from The Crucible. Both here to debate uh the fact that the US should remain secular, feminism is good, and oh, Andrew is a grifter. Uh, this evening, we're going to start with the grifting topic and move on through the other two. Josie, would you like to deliver your opening statement, please?

>> Yes, thank you. So, tonight I'm discussing a few things with Andrew Wilson. While secularism and feminism are points upon which we disagree, and I look forward to the discussion that we'll have about those two topics, the reason that we're here tonight is because I publicly called Andrew Wilson a grifter. Uh, and I stand by that statement. So, I'm not here to argue whether or not Andrew is lying about his political ideologies, and I will not argue whether or not he's got Christ in his heart. When you go to receive your judgment, it's not me who's going to be standing in front of you. However, to win a debate, traditionally, you make your arguments in front of a judge or panel, and then try to determine or and they try to determine whose arguments were more persuasive and well-supported through evidence. That judge or panel is meant to be neutral. Debates are traditionally meant to sway those who are on the fence or convert others to your side of thinking. In informal debates, that is not the case. In formal debates, there are rules for speaking and decorum. Informal debates are not seeking to discover truth. They are simply just to be right. They are to own the other side. Andrew's own courses, Verbal Combat or Debate University, in name alone, give a false sense of prestige, credibility, and expert-level knowledge. Psychoanalyzing, sorry, psych, psych, psychologically Jesus. It uh, deres trust and postures him as a leader or authority figure. This is not something that is unique to Andrew. It is a truth for virtually everyone in this new age debate bro era of informal debate and online discourse. And that applies to people on both sides of the aisle. Andrew is no different from Brian Atlas, Destiny, Myron Gaines, Dean Withers, Charlie Kirk, or Hassan [ __ ]. A grifter is defined as somebody who uses deception to deprive people of money or possessions. Now, I am not arguing that Andrew's grift is in his beliefs or his ideologies. I am arguing that the grift of Andrew is that he is benefiting from the sham that is modern informal debate. Andrew is monetized across all platforms. His YouTube happily accepts donations. And for the one-time price of just $249, you can become a or you can purchase his Verbal Combat course and become extra insufferable at all family holidays. The purpose of debate is traditionally to further, to further exchange ideas, sometimes conflicting ideas, and to work towards progress. Formally. Excuse me. Sorry. I may need my glasses at some point because I uh, I am blind and I am reading my notes. Forgive me.

>> Okay, take your time.

>> In the sport of these live social media debates, the objective is not progress. It is just to win. As I mentioned, by owning your opponent, it is to create drama for clicks and curate algorithmic gotchas. As per the recent studies published by the NIH Library of Medicine, consuming this type of content does more harm than good to the viewer. There has been a particular uptick in reported cases of anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation on both sides of the aisle. Reported feelings of isolation and distrust are skyrocketing. You are writing, oh, sorry, you are writing a prescription for a problem that you are manufacturing. Now, obviously, I am sat here engaging in this very thing that I am disavowing. I am not a political commentator. I am not a Susan debater. I am a comedian. I am natural. I am I am actually letting down my own audience tonight who wants nothing more than to see me call you a big gay dildo and then rub the olive jar moment in your face. But that is not my plan for this evening. I am not here as a comedian. I am not monetizing from this stream in any capacity. I am not making a move to be a figure in the debate space. My only objective tonight is to pull the curtain and show the audience what this really is, which is just a money grab. I have no intention to operate in this dis, in this space or be a political pundit moving forward. The fact that Andrew is here and willing to debate me is evidence of this grift in and of itself. I have said things about Andrew Wilson before publicly on whatever, on Twitter, on various forms of social media. I've said things about Andrew, and he has never engaged back. It was not until one person with five followers tried to appeal to Andrew, and then I tried to very directly tell this person he does not care about you. This is not some, he doesn't actually care about his audience. He's not your crusader. He's not trying to help you. It wasn't until I made that point and made that curtain pull that Andrew then decided to acknowledge one of my statements and challenge me to this debate. The fact that you would waste your time on an unseasoned, inexperienced debater, someone who is not in this space, is evidence that you are just looking to own your opponent and to clip farm through this. So, that is my opening statement. I uh, I'm excited to see what we're going to have in front of us tonight. I will yield the rest of my time.

>> Thank you, Josie. And Andrew, to you, please.

>> That's it. That's it. Like that. Are you sure?

>> Yeah.

>> All that time. And that those were the points that you wanted to make.

>> There will be more points. We have a two-hour discussion ahead of us.

>> Yeah, I know. But I mean, it's only 30 minutes. Are you, I mean, you're sure you can bring up whatever you want. Like, whatever you want, you can bring up in your opening. You still got plenty of time. You sure?

>> No, no, no, I'm sure. We can end that part there. I don't need to just ramble on and give you a speech. Discussion. Okay. So, uh, I guess we'll go through it one point at a time. She defines a grifter as somebody who deprives people of money through nefarious means. I don't see how me having a debate course, people ask me to make for them, does that. Sounds like somebody's asking me for a product. I created the product, and then I sell the product. And now, if it were the case that I was selling a product and then wasn't delivering on the product, uh, that would be depriving people of their money through nefarious means. And I would say that, yeah, that would that would probably entail grifting of some kind. Um, she also makes some kind of, um, uh, ridiculous statement. She says a judge or a panel in a formal debate needs to rule who wins. It's not the case. Most of the time, judges in formal debates are actually there in order to keep the debate on track, just like in informal debates where you have a moderator. She says an informal debate isn't there to discover truth, but that's exactly what it's there to do. Uh, the thing is, is right now, the entire inquisition that she's giving me on being a grifter is for her to try to tell my audience what she believes is the truth. Right? So she negates, uh, her own opening statement immediately. Uh, she says for $249, you can purchase Debate University. That's true. But I just want to let you know, when I launched it, it was $500. We sold a lot of courses. I'd only recently lowered the price since Christmas because I'm a really nice guy. Uh, she says the objective of debates isn't progress. It's designed to own the opposition. The truth is, is that we live in a world in which people have very, very small attention spans. Because of this, in order to kind of grip them into the things that you're trying to relay to them, and by the way, comics do the same thing. They release bits of themselves, kind of highlight reels of the things that they do and the things they actually said which were funny, in order to, uh, put that out so that people can find them and watch more content from them. They are not. And I'm, I guarantee my opponent's done this. I'm sure if you go to her own channel, she'll probably have very short videos of her which are designed to put her in the best possible light so that people will come and check out her comedy and content. She's guilty of the exact same thing she's accusing me of. Um, she also says that she has a study, but I want, I want you to, uh, actually produce a study. And here's why. Something I'd like to point out is that most people who produce studies, especially in debates, haven't actually read them. I would like to actually ask my opponent directly, and I'll give her, uh, just a very quick amount of time here because it's still my opening statement, to just answer this truthfully, right? Did you actually read the study? Yes or no? Or did you just read a synopsis of the study?

>> I read the study.

>> Okay.

>> Both of the studies.

>> And how many pages is the study?

>> I read it through a web, through the web browser of the

>> Yeah. How many pages was it?

>> Well, it was just I scrolled through the studies.

>> How many pages was it though?

>> I wasn't looking at the

>> Was it more than 50? Maybe more than 50.

>> 100. Yeah. You didn't read the study. Okay. So, anyway,

>> I just want to point out back to my opening statement here, right? That I guarantee you that she just told you first live, the night. Um, by the way, uh, she snuck in a personal attack right away, right? I just really want to call Andrew dildo. I really just want to call her a stupid fat [ __ ]. But, you know, the thing is, is like, I guess we can preserve our opening statements. And we can do this one of two ways, right? It can either go off the rails, and we can determine who's better at the insult flame war. Guarantee you all win that. Or you can stick to the content. It's totally and completely up to you, right? But considering the fact that it looks like you still are addicted to the fork, I would be very cautious about going down that road. By the way, uh, no evidence at all of any grifting whatsoever. She says he's trying to waste his time with an unseasoned debater. Actually, that would prove that I'm not a grifter. That I do think that the ideology can get out, including to whoever her audience is. The fact that I'm willing to engage with her, and I engage with quote nobody's all the time, including on Twitter. Um, I don't, I have no idea where she's where where she's even trying to go with that exactly. So, um, so far, I haven't seen any evidence of grifting. All I've seen is, uh, a bit of personal incredulity. Andrew Wilson have course, sell course, therefore grift. Very strange. Uh, I don't see why it's a problem for me to, uh, create a course that highlights, uh, various debate skills that people seem to want and are willing to pay for. So, with that, I'm willing to dive right into it. Just remember, it's up to you how the debate goes. It's up to you.

>> Thank you so much, Andrew. And as a kind reminder to the audience, we're going to get through, uh, the Andrew is a grifter portion of the debate, then we will move into secularism, and then feminism. Uh, of course, we will get through the debate, go into closing statements, and then read and respond to your kind super chats. Thank you so kindly. Uh, of course, as always, uh, uh, tomato tradition, we will go into open panel afterwards, but I know we will be kind of on a time crunch as far as the, uh, debate is concerned. Uh, Josie and Andrew, I leave the floor open to you.

>> Yeah. So, how does me having a debate course give evidence of grifting? Exactly.

>> Okay. So why did you name your course Debate University?

>> Uh, well, because the idea there was to follow up, uh, with more courses for debate that I could sell for profit in the future.

>> So there was there was no intention behind naming it university to maybe foster a sense of trust or imply a level of expertise?

>> I think it rolls off the tongue well. And the whole Verbal Combat. Why did you why did you choose to go with a theme of war or fighting?

>> Yeah. So, a lot of my debate style comes from, uh, old, there's a, a sequence of old books, especially written by, uh, prison guards who express and explain the ideas behind what is called Verbal Combat. What Verbal Combat is and combat no contact is that you're always when you're engaging with opposition and engaging with ideas, you're in a form of mental, mental combat. That's, uh, that's what's going on. And so the reason prison guards obviously do it is because they want to defuse situations that they don't escalate. If those situations escalate, their very safety is at risk. I was always a big fan of that because I think ideologically, that's also true between the left and the right, that these are very high stakes conversations, ultimately they do change minds, and that they do have effects in society, and it is a war, and it is combat with no contact.

>> You feel that this is combat, that this is a verbal war?

>> That the, the ideology between the left and the right, yes, it is a, it is war. Yes. The, the discussion between you and me, you feel that this is combative?

>> Well, the debate course, the debate course isn't called, you know, how to, uh, debate with unfunny comedians. The debate course is called Verbal Combat. The idea behind it is the left-right dialectic and how to engage with progressives and feminists and debate and beat them. And yes, I do think that that is an ideological war, and it's been going on for a long time. And so, are you, who are your famous or political or, uh, who are your famous graduates? I'll frame it that way. We'll keep the university theme.

>> You don't get diplomas. It's not a diploma mill. You just buy, you can buy the course and watch it. There's no, there's no certificate. There's no graduates. And by the way, it was never framed as being that ever.

>> University. You don't think that university implies that there's some sort of course completion or certification that comes with it?

>> There's nothing like that in the course. Never.

>> Right.

>> So you think that univers, the word university in and of itself doesn't imply that? Do you, do you, do you like, do you assume that people who are interested in, uh, debating with opposition using, uh, their verbal IQ are so [ __ ] stupid that they're going to be fooled by the word university, uh, inside of a slogan to get them to buy a debate course? You just think that they're really [ __ ] stupid, and that you're really smart. Like, you wouldn't be fooled, of course, just them, the stupid plebs in my audience. They're just too dumb to understand that even though this was marketed as a way in which, uh, you could tangle with somebody ideologically and win, uh, that somehow they're going to be fooled into thinking they get a diploma in what? How to debate kind of better? Like, what do you think that they're being fooled by here?

>> I think they're being fooled into thinking that, okay, well, if I learn from Andrew Wilson, if I buy his course, I'm going to be an expert. I'm going to know how to be an expert debater. That's what it's going to be. So maybe not necessarily a physical diploma, but certainly that they

>> Have you, have you watched the course?

>> I'm not giving you $249, Andrew.

>> Okay. So, so the answer is no.

>> Yeah, of course it's no.

>> Okay. So then if you don't even, uh, know what the content is or what's expressed in the course, or how things are described to the people in the course, this is not a classroom style where you have a chalkboard. This is me expressing the laws of logic. I brought in multiple, uh, logicians who were expert apologists to walk through the format of logical debate online, and thus far, I've gotten a, a very, very positive response from people who have viewed it.

>> And what I know, what to tell you, what have those people gone on to do, what have they

>> Well, many of them, many of them debate pretty prominently online, many of them right here on this very channel that you're on right now. There's been dozens and dozens of them, uh, who it seems to have helped them quite a bit. I get many, uh, emails from people who say it seemed to have helped them quite a bit in their personal lives when it came to dealing with their boss, co-workers, things like this. Um, I wasn't, I was surprised. I didn't even know that that would be a potential side outcome for the course, but apparently it was. This was really just focused on how to engage in ideological verbal combat across ideological lines and how to prepare people who have my ideology for that if they had interest in it. And, uh, it appears that it worked very well.

>> Can you name any of the, any of the seasoned debaters that you have educated?

>> You mean the ones that go on this program?

>> I've personally never seen this program. I wouldn't, I don't know their names.

>> Well, then how would you know if I named them and I was lying or not? You should take my course, and then you wouldn't fall into those traps.

>> I'm saying you can name if they're

>> Oh, sure. John, Jill, Jack, Jim, Fred, Chuck, Terry. Go ahead and refute that I'm lying. Prove it. Prove that I'm lying. Prove it.

>> But no household names, no no major names in the debate space. Nothing like that.

>> Well, what, what does it take? What's a major name in the debate space? What would

>> I mean, I would argue that your name would be a major name in the debate space anyway.

>> So, people, so people have been at this for years and years and years. And do you think that this course was marketed as though if you took it, you were going to be launched into prominence on YouTube for your debate skills? You honestly, do you honestly think that?

>> I mean, again, the word university would imply that if you complete it, you would gain some sort of level of expertise.

>> No, it doesn't. It doesn't imply that.

>> That is actually what the word university would imply. Yeah.

>> No, it literally doesn't imply that. All it, all that the university would imply is that there's some level here of learning that's going on. Not that there would be a level of expertise that goes on after you're done learning whatever the said thing is. For instance, you can have an introduction to debate, which I have, for instance. Why would that entail that you would instantly have some sort of higher level of expertise? All it would mean is that you receive some form of education on something. That's it.

>> Well, then why not Debate Elementary School?

>> That's not as catchy.

>> I would argue that it would be more appropriate if it's

>> How would you know? You haven't watched the course. How the hell do you know? Like, how do you know?

>> By your own admission.

>> Okay. Well, look, let me ask you here. Let's, let's, let's, let's find out if this holds muster.

>> If I ask you, what, what are the three laws of logic? Can you tell me?

>> No.

>> No. Can I, if I ask you, what are metaphysics? Can you tell me?

>> No.

>> Can you tell me what epistemology is?

>> Uh, that is the knowing, like what the truth is and the difference between an a belief, belief and or an opinion.

>> No, but it, it's still, I mean, it was, it was, it's still a good try. I'm not going to beat you up about it. But, um, you know, what about, what about ontology?

>> No.

>> No. Okay. So the thing is, is like, these are very basic, uh, forms of of philosophy that most people kind of leave on the table. But if you had checked out the course, you would know that I brought in experts, uh, guys who do have PhDs like David Patrick Harry and others who are famous Christian apologists, and they sit down and go over what all of those terms mean, why they mean those things, and how you can apply them, uh, to your knowledge base, and it helps to equip you, uh, in the future if you are having ideological combat with a leftist, especially from a Christian paradigm. But without any kind of measure or metric of expertise at the end of it, without some sort of guaranteed level of, if you have completed this, this is the knowledge that you will have, and this is the, the level at which you will be able to debate without giving that level of accreditation to it.

>> Accreditation from whom?

>> I mean, there are accredited, like the actual debate societies in America are accredited. You think that I'm running some kind of, uh, actual polished, uh, college or something that that you have a four-year degree or an associate's degree at? Or did I market that I would build out a course that's roughly seven hours that would assist you with debating ideologies online? Because I'm pretty confident that that's what I marketed. Now, if you have evidence that I marketed something besides that, I would like to hear it and see it. But I'm 100% confident that that's exactly what I marketed, and that that's exactly what people are buying.

>> I don't believe that you are dumb enough to think that your words don't hold meaning. And I am not, I don't believe that you

>> Well, I don't think you're dumb enough to think. Well, don't all words hold meaning?

>> Of course. But I'm saying I don't

>> I'm saying that I don't think that you chose Verbal Combat and framed things as a war. I don't think that you chose university just willy-nilly because it, you know, rolled off.

>> I just, I just, but I just gave you an accounting, which is completely reasonable. I told you exactly where Verbal Combat came from. I told you exactly what the inspiration for that was. I did tell you that I believe that there's a grounded ideological war going on between the right and the left and between these ideological paradigms, and that that course will assist you if you are engaging in those ideological paradigms, which more and more people are, uh, in. It'll assist you in crafting your arguments, uh, for those paradigms. That's the way it was marketed. That's the way it's always been marketed. If you can tell me what's actually wrong with that, I'd like to know.

>> Sure. It's that when you phrase things in terms of combat or in terms of war, you actually trigger the fight or flight response of your audience.

>> Good.

>> That's, I, you don't honestly believe that the right and the left are at a war outside of outside of social media. There's no

>> I just want to let you know, I don't know if you're aware of this or not, okay? But, um, the left has, from my view, murdered an entire generation of human beings, murdered them, and is currently right now fighting on the streets in order to get the right to murder more of them. Do I, I honestly believe that? Not a joke. Not kidding. From my paradigm, they literally kill babies by the million. By the millions. Do I think that that's a war, a spiritual war, and an ideological war? You bet your [ __ ] ass I do. Do I think that there's an ideological battle which is going on when the assessors of, uh, these paradigms try to describe for me that you, a female, are, uh, every bit as much only a woman as the male who puts on a wig and pretends that they're you? Do you think I don't think that these are ideological battlefields? You're out of your [ __ ] mind. Not only do I believe that 100%, but I can demonstrate it to you. I can demonstrate right now that we have been in a basically an ideological cold war for somewhere north of 60 [ __ ] years. Yes. Yes. 100% I believe it. Not only do I believe it, but I wanted to equip people, uh, with some way to combat that. Some way to do that better, because I happen to be very good at it. It's a skill I have.

>> Well, in fairness, I do think that you probably believe that abortion is murder. And I will agree that you, you believe that that part is actually violent and at the same level of a war. Fine. I won't try to say that you don't. If you are genuinely a Christian, you probably do believe that.

>> What is this?

>> You just made a concession. So you just made a concession there that that I believe that we're in an ideological war.

>> On that one topic. Yes.

>> Yeah. So I think that leftists are doing everything in their power to destroy Christianity from the ground up. I think that that's their entire goal. I think that we can see it in the models of the NOS's that give millions and millions of dollars to leftist infiltration units whose entire job is to go in and give retraining to clergy. I've covered this many, many times on my stream and given the NOS's out and shown the evidence for this. Do I think that that's ideological in nature? Yes. Yes, I do. Do I think that this is a battle? I do think it's a battle. Do I think that because we're not using guns and ammo and bombs and tanks, it's any less of a war? I do not.

>> I think that you're lying through your teeth.

>> Prove it.

>> Well, I mean, you have a tell of raising your eyebrows a specific way when you seem to get

>> Oh, you're going to use psychology. When I use, when I raise my, when I raise my eyebrow, it's a tell of a lie. Okay. Well, here. Hang on. Hang on. Let's, let's see. You're a beautiful woman. That's not the way you were raising your eyebrows. I'm sorry. That's not the way you were raising your eyebrows to be the tell. But all I'm saying is that it's, as the average human, I can see through a croc of [ __ ] when I hear it. It's very obvious.

>> This is, this is what's called an argument from incredulity. It's perfectly acceptable for me to believe that you believe that I'm full of [ __ ]. But your job right now is not to tell me what you believe. If your job right now is to demonstrate that that is the case. Now, I'm willing 100% to engage with whatever it is you bring to the table, uh, to actually demonstrate that you think that I'm lying, but this has been consistent with my online presence since I was [ __ ], I don't know, in my, in my late 20s.

>> So, then why do you not get involved in actual politics, actual like on the ground politics? Why do you not run for anything?

>> Uh, well, first of all, I'm going to, I'll tell you a couple things that I've experienced here. Um, learning from different creators, especially one, it does not transfer over well. Uh, being very popular online doesn't necessarily transfer over very well to popularity in the mainstream. If you're a big movie star, perhaps like Arnold Schwarzenegger, uh, or Jesse Ventura, people like this, that can transfer over fairly well. You're a household name. Uh, when it comes to online popularity, however, that does not transfer over well for grassroots. And, uh, there's many content creators who have gone that route, like Sargon of AOD, for instance, went that route. Destiny went that route when he tried to do canvassing campaigns, and many others did, and it was an abysmal failure, even though they're very popular online. It's very possible. I know you've probably never thought about this, but the translation of the skill set that I have may not translate well to IRL politics, but may translate well to informing IRL politics.

>> So, you put in absolutely no work outside of just these online debates and streams for your, for your ideology. That's your form of engagement.

>> I didn't say that at all. I engage with politicians all over the place. Assist them with arguments. I've assisted with grassroots campaigns, um, which have been spearheaded largely by a guy who works for me named Rob No, who interacts with the RNC on a regular basis, and we've helped to change a lot of the conversation when it comes to this. But that and me being a, a skillful IRL politician are two very different things. Do you realize that politicians, for instance, have political strategists, they have speech writers, they have rhetorical trainers, they have people who assist them in all aspects of political strategy. It's not just a, oh, Andrew is really good and informed on politics, and so therefore he'll be a good politician. It doesn't always transfer over that way. And by the way, nobody's better at knowing my skill set than me. Certainly not you.

>> I mean, I've seen, I've seen your display of skills online. So,

>> Have you?

>> I, I've seen more than I'd like, but why not, why not hire those people? If you want to enact change, why not hire

>> Hire them?

>> No, I'm saying why not hire

>> Else? I did hire him. What do you mean?

>> Hire? Why not hire a political strategist? Why not hire a speech?

>> I did hire one. What do you mean?

>> Oh, so then why not, why not make your foray into, uh, into politics? Because people go, people go where they're effective.

>> And you wouldn't be an effective leader. You wouldn't be effective in

>> Well, and now you're conflating things. You think that leadership can only be confined to the political. Uh, but it's not. And the thing is, it's that's funny here. That's interesting, especially is that why do I need to confine myself to the ideas of what you have for politics when clearly you don't know much about politics? I just walked you through. There's a multitude of skill sets that people have that would be applicable to the worldview. Some people are very good at being in front of cameras IRL and, um, you know, kind of delivering the rhetoric that way. They're very likable, perhaps. They have all sorts of various skill sets which would gravitate people towards them. But they also need people to craft arguments to, uh, be supportive in influencers, etc., etc. So, just because I'm on one front of the ideological battle and not directly on the political front doesn't mean I'm not engaged on the political front. That's just absurd. Would you argue that there are some people in this world that set a goal for themselves that they can never achieve?

>> Would you say that that's happens pretty often? They set a goal for themselves that they can never achieve?

>> And that they know that they can never achieve, but they sort of make that their long-term end goal.

>> I don't know if I believe that or not.

>> Okay. I would argue that it's true. There's a lot of people that

>> Can he demonstrate it through something other than an assertion?

>> Sure. There's one of the talking points of the whole anti-feminist movement. There are women who say that feminism is cancer and they want to end the vote of the women in the West. That's never going to happen. They have to

>> Why not? Why won't it ever happen?

>> Because of what we have in place just within our democracy. That's not something that

>> You realize that suffrage, a universal suffrage, is a new idea.

>> Yeah, I do.

>> Yeah. Why? So it's, it's very convenient for status quo individuals to say that such things like this will never be repealed or contracted when we look at Roe v. Wade, which was also part of the status quo and was it was overturned. Political ideologies change cross-generationally, and we're moving into a a new series of generations as the boomers die off. I don't think you should feel as secure in the idea of suffrage as you seem to think you should. That's not what the political current is, at least that I see.

>> Roe v. Wade was not inscribed in the Constitution. Women's suffrage is. It's much harder to overturn an actual amendment.

>> So was slavery.

>> Yes. And then it was

>> And then it was, exactly. And so was prohibition. The, the ban on alcohol was also inscribed in the Constitution. Women got that pushed through long before they ever had the right to vote. They were able to, uh, make because they were set in a moral high ground. They weren't just political cogs. They were able to actually get an amendment passed long before they could ever vote. Isn't that interesting? So, the thing is that's really funny about this is like, you can point to constitutional amendments and say it's inscribed in the constitution, but remember, it's not really. It's an amendment to the constitution. The constitution's been amended many times, and it'll be amended many more. This, if we start to branch this way, then we're going to move into secularism and away from

>> Well, I, I would like to finish the discussion before we get to

>> Well, I would agree with that. I want

>> Before we get to the your lack of understanding of the source material of feminism, I would like for you to just go ahead and demonstrate in very simple words why it is that you think I'm a grifter, because is is your only evidence, your only compelling evidence that you think that I used university in Debate University, and that the people who buy the course are so [ __ ] stupid that they think that they're going to get some kind of actual accredited degree because of that, and that therefore they're being fleeced, and that it was marketed this way, or are you saying something besides that?

>> I am saying something besides that.

>> Okay. What are you saying then? Make it clear for me.

>> Okay. I am saying that this framing that these online informal debates creates is that we are at this war, the left and the right. Everybody's at each other's throats, and we're incredibly polarized. And I have had the privilege of traveling the country and also the world for my job, and that is by and large not the case. That is not what is happening on the streets and in day-to-day. It certainly is what's happening online in these spaces because they are very satisfying to the algorithm.

>> Yeah, I actually agree with that with that point that in your day-to-day interactions, uh, things will seem like they're completely normal. They also did in war-torn France during World War II and in Nazi Germany. The entire nation's at war, and the ideologies are so incredibly over the top, uh, that you have rise of brand new ones like fascism and others. But in the day-to-day lives of the people inside of the state, not much changed until it does, until until it does.

>> I'm saying that the ideologies of the people are not at this high stakes level of war, and it's not these intensely polarizing communities.

>> Well, forgive me if I don't believe that you're having intense ideological discussions with your friends and people, randoms that you meet on the street. I don't believe that that's the case because I don't even think it's possible. I don't think you're meeting random people on the street who are going about their day shopping and doing the various activities people do in their daily life and stopping them and saying, "Hey, by the way, do you think that ideologically leftists have killed millions of people through abortion?" I don't believe that you're asking them that. I think you would be shocked to hear the answers because pollsters do ask them that. And so the thing is, is like, while it's true that there's something called the normalcy bias, right? And you saw this during COVID-19, the normalcy bias, people will try to interact as they've always interacted, even as the world around them is falling apart.

>> So you're incorrect in that assumption. That is exactly what I do. That is what I do for my data.

>> Show me where I can see that. Show some evidence of that.

>> Due to my NDA, I cannot not reveal the shows that I

>> Well, that's awful convenient, isn't it?

>> That's, that's just the reality. I'm not willing to risk my job for this.

>> Yeah. Well, that's awful convenient that you say I do do thing, but could never demonstrate to you that I do.

>> Once I'm, I mean, once I move on from this particular show, I am happy to come back and let you know what the show was, but while I work on it, I'm not allowed to say what it is. Well, whatever the show is, um, where people are pointing out and asking about ideologies, if it is the case that you think that ideologies are not polarized right now in 2025, then you're just simply not telling the truth.

>> No, I am telling the truth. But that's what I'm saying is,

>> Well, then how come every single pollster and every single political commentator seems to disagree with you based on the current data of the people that they pull and what it is that they believe? Why is it that it's so ideologically brutal right now that we're waiting for constitutional crisis? Why is Trump sending the military into various states? It doesn't appear that things are nearly so ideologically stable as you seem to be pretending.

>> For the average person, it is. At the average person, all wants the same things. At the end of the day, we all basically want the same things. We all have the same things that we're striving for. We're not actually that divided. That's my whole point is that these online informal debates are fostering that divide. It's just pushing it forward. It's making you think this person is, you know, this side, this ideology is out to get you. And I am the only one. I, Andrew Wilson, can sell you a course so that you're equipped with, you know, mental and verbal armor. I'll give you the verbal grenades to go ahead and launch at your opponents. When in reality, it's not that. It's not. Nobody is actually benefiting from your ideological armor. That's just not happening. Andrew, let's be real with each other.

>> Can you demonstrate it?

>> I can demonstrate that what you are arguing just doesn't happen in the real world. It only happens here.

>> Then, then demonstrate it.

>> How would you like me to demonstrate it, Andrew?

>> However you can demonstrate it, I'm willing to listen. I'm telling you that through my own experience of being out there in the world and not just anecdotally, not just from what I have experienced, but just out in the world.

>> I'm telling you from my own experience, but not telling you from my own experience. Is that right?

>> I'm speaking partly from my own experience.

>> And what, what are you speaking, what is the other part that you're speaking from besides your own experience? If you ask people what their values are, what their core values are, they all pretty much line up. And that is true in the polls. People want their families protected. People want to feel safe. People want their lives protected. Now, the finer details, sure, if we want to get pedantic about it, we can. And that's where things differ. But a lot of these ideological wars are problems that are made up, and we think that they're bigger issues than they are.

>> Was, uh, was January 6th made up? No.

>> No.

>> What does January 6th have to do with

>> Well, I'm just saying I think it's really interesting that as we see unrest in the street, as we literally see what just happened in the California riots due to illegal immigrants, as we see people say that they want less illegal immigration inside of their nation. They want less diversity. They want less of these things overwhelmingly, and then overwhelmingly vote for a president who says that they're going to deliver on those things. It sure seems like an ideological divide to me on Main Street, not just from some elitist online or some rhetoric somewhere. It certainly seems to me like these are things that people take seriously and that they're having struggles with. Now, when you say, uh, this sort of nonsense like this, you say, "Hey, Andrew, look, we all have some shared needs." That's true. We all want to see our families protected. We all want food to eat. We all want safety. All of those things are true, but you realize the distinction between ideologies is how we get there. That's how we get to those things. The various ideas of safety. Let's take the trans movement, for instance, right? The entirety right now of the political polarization behind transgenderism is that women don't feel safe in their own sports, do they? They're tired of getting their [ __ ] their [ __ ] pushed in. They're tired of getting their faces bashed in. They're tired of getting humiliated by men in wigs. They don't feel very [ __ ] safe, do they? And so it becomes very ideological. It's funny. They want the same things you want. They want safety and this and that, but they seem to think that they're not very safe right now when it comes to this particular issue. And so other people though, they do. And that's how you end up with ideological divides. Right.

>> Are you framing that there's like a mass movement of trans women in women's sports right now? I can only think of a couple instances.

>> No, I'm pointing out to you something which is objectively true, which is the feeling of safety. When you say that there's shared values that people have across the board, I'm willing to concede that that's true because it's obvious. It's, it doesn't even need empirical evidence, nor I think even a logical, uh, syllogism is necessary for this. It's observable by almost everybody on planet Earth. People have shared needs. Safety, one of the things that you cited is one of those needs. But safety also comes at the expense of a feeling, doesn't it? I feel safe. It's not objective all the time, is it? You can be unsafe, for instance, and feel safe. But this is all, uh, branched around the feeling of safety. And women right now don't feel safe in sports, even if they're not dealing with any transgenders. And that creates ideological divides.

>> What can you point to that shows that women by and large don't feel safe in sports, though? This is not, I'm not even here to debate the merits of trans athletes, but I think that that's a bit of a claim to say that women in college sport or any sports are fearful of that actively.

>> Do you agree with me that there's tens of thousands of anti-trans activists in the United States?

>> I don't know. I've never looked at those figures.

>> Okay. Well, there are tens of thousands of anti-trans activists. I can point you to J.K. Rowling, for instance, who's a very prominent online figure, and her media has been seen by, I don't know, how many millions of people, and made into movies and everything else, and she's a prominent what is called, and I'll tell you what they're called, they're trans-exclusionary radical feminists.

>> Fantastic. Yeah, real quick. So

>> J.K. Rowling

>> feels unsafe in women's sports.

>> She feels that women's sports are unsafe, and many, many of the advocates who are trying to push people out. Yes.

>> But she's not a participant in, in women's sports.

>> That, do you need to be a participant in women's sports in order to point out that, uh, women's sports is not safe for women?

>> Uh, yeah, I would argue that if you are, if all of the female athletes in female sports or

The majority even came out and said, "I do not feel safe within female sports right now," then I would say, "Okay, absolutely. That's a problem that we need to look at."

I agree. I guess that's why so many universities recently changed their policies so that trans athletes can't compete anymore against women if they're males. I guess they must have gotten some feedback from their faculty, which they did, and from their students, which they did, that they no longer wanted to have them participate. And you know what the number one reason that they cited was? They didn't feel safe.

So it's So it's not even happening anymore. There's been laws passed to

It's still happening. Yes, of course it's happening. Oh, you just said that colleges have outlawed.

I said many colleges have. Yeah. Many colleges have reversed policies that they had on this specifically because of the feelings of safety from the athletes who were involved in these various programs.

Okay. So now their athletes are no longer feeling unsafe.

And they're not feeling unsafe because ideology was able to reverse policy. Yeah. Oh, I'm I'm going back to what you were saying where you're saying the number one thing in transgends issue with transgender issues in the US.

Now, don't straw man my position. I didn't say this number one issue transgenders in the US. What I told you I was I was speaking to ideological distinctions and how the feeling of safety is paramount when it comes to the idea of transports. Not that that's the number one issue with transgender anything, only that I can easily use that as an example for how ideology transfers over to the mainstream and affects policy.

I I have no background or information on transgender people participating in sports. I've and I don't play sports as

I don't think you have a lot of background information on anything honestly.

Because you think that you think that people don't have ideological divides on Main Street because you seeing their [ __ ] salads and their chicken sandwiches and not talking about how they hate the trans out in public, right? But it's but the thing is so funny about it is like

You think I'm a food reviewer.

No, no, no. The point that I'm making to you is that whatever whatever your ane

Whatever your anecdotal evidences are of people who are out in the mainstream due to the normaly bias acting as though everything is perfectly acceptable is the same thing that you would find in war torn France war torn Germany war torn Russia people are always moving towards the idea of normaly even if there are major ideological divides and by the way you still haven't demonstrated in any way shape or form how I'm an actual grifter other than uh you put university in the name of a course that you sold and market it as a way to up your debate skills and you haven't watched it so you can't even criticize it nor do you know what the guest list was that came on uh who are PhDs by the way PhDs uh one a PhD in um uh religions and the whole point was to uh show you how it is that you can make ideological arguments from a religious worldview and not look like a [ __ ] stupid fool. And guess what? I had experts come in who did exactly that. Many prominent experts, in fact, and many more to come. So, I'm not really sure how it is that I'm grifting.

Again, on that note, I did want to interrupt and just let you know you are at about the half hour mark for that. So, it's up to you if you want to continue there or if you wanted to start moving into your other points. It's up to the two of you.

I'm fine either way.

Do you want to wrap this up? you successfully demonstrated that I was a grifter or did you have anything more you wanted to say on that point?

I've as I'm trying to say to you Andrew is that I believe that you are a grifter because you are pushing forth this narrative that is simply untrue. And while you say that oh I'm talking to people about chicken sandwiches or whatever the [ __ ] that's not what I'm talking about to them to the people on the street. I am talking to them about their ideologies about these specific difficult issues. And by and large most people are actually pretty in line with one another. It's very very fractional margins about these like niche issues like trans people in sports which at the end of the day does not overwhelmingly affect the population. Sure, there's disagreements about that, but it's also not war. It's not a battle. Nobody's nobody's losing their life over it. Nobody's actively in danger in these tr whether it's trans sports or gay marriage or whatever the [ __ ] nobody's actually in danger from any of that. So that's it's crazy to frame it as combat and as battle that is intentionally trying to trigger the fight orflight response in your audience.

And that

I'm not I'm not intentionally trying to trigger a fight orflight response. I am intentionally explain explaining exactly what I think which is that it is an ideological battle that millions of people have lost their lives in the womb smited by their own mothers due to the propaganda of the state and feminism and that that is something which has happened and from my view is mass murder I have pointed out multiple times that there's a massive illegal immigration crisis which is going on which has cost thousands upon thousands of people their lives in crime even more in fentanyl and overdosing even more in the drug trade which is going on there which is going on due to the illegal immigration which is happening in the nation. I can go on and on and on and on and on. But when you make these crazy ass claims nobody's losing their lives, you're quite wrong. They are losing their lives. They get killed often. Hang on. They get killed often enough that Chicago is battleground. A literal war zone going on in Chicago. More people were losing their lives there a day than were losing their lives in Afghanistan during the war. Were you aware of that? Yes. Not kidding. Look up the stats yourself. Look it up yourself. It is the case that there are literal [ __ ] war zones and battlegrounds right now in the United States. You just don't know anything about it because you've never looked into it. But some of us have. And the thing is is that it's nice that you go into these hunky dory neighborhoods and ask people who are out doing their daily stuff maybe what their ideology is. But remember there's also something called phrasiology. And the idea is here you can actually phrase questions in a way which affirms bias. So I I don't like you're so ignorant on these issues. It's difficult for me to even trust what you're saying to me right now. It's actually difficult for me to how why would you raise a skeptical eyebrow when I mention Chicago? Why? You don't know how bad things are there? What about Detroit? Do you know how bad things are there? It's [ __ ] bad. I don't know what to tell you. It's real bad. It's not good.

Well, I will say this as somebody who has been to literal active war zones and somebody who has been to Chicago and to Detroit who lives

What active war zones have you been in?

I've been to Syria and I've been to Yemen.

What active war zones were you in?

Syria, which is

No, no, no. That's a country.

I'm talking about an active war zone. Not if there's a war going on in the country, but and that you were happen to be in the country when there was a war. What war zone were you in? Did you see the battle of the with your own eyes because you were there and you were watching people blow each other to bits or did you happen to go to the country while a war was going on and you were in the safety zones? Which one's actually true?

I have seen a bomb go off and I have seen people die in front of me.

Where where did that happen?

In Syria. In Yemen I

So in Syria you were a war correspondent and you watched people get blown up. I wasn't a war correspondent, but I have been in dangerous places. So, I've again I've been to Syria. I've been to Yemen. I have been to Israel as well. So, I have I've I've seen the front lines of what war is and it is horrific and that is dangerous. And it I mean it's I don't even

It's really funny that you went to Israel and you don't realize that that entire war that's going on there is ideological.

Very little of it is actually physical. It's almost all ideological.

Are are you arguing that? Okay. One, I was not talking about politically outside of the US. When I talk about the grifting that you're doing,

I am assuming that that is going to US consumers or maybe people in Canada. But English speaking,

I think people worldwide have bought the cores.

Okay. You know what? Then if

So, it's global Griffin, baby. Global Griffin. We have that that university in the name is just making people lap it up. They're so [ __ ] stupid. They don't realize it. Even though all the marketing that I did was that, hey, this will probably assist you with your debate skills. And um it seems to have actually done just that. Actually, these people are so stupid. They thought that they were going to get like a [ __ ] I don't know, a diploma inside of the Cracker Jackacks box. I I don't I don't know what it is that you actually think here, but um

If you're saying that your if your course is helping the folks in the Congo and in Palestine and in Yemen, then more power to you. Do you think that people do you think that people who are in different nations may have different priorities for the things that they value? Like perhaps people in the Congo value monkey brains more than they do debate. But perhaps people who live in the middle of the UK who are in an ideological battle from tons and tons of Muslims being imported into their country may need to have an edge in political debate because that's the problem they're dealing with. Do you think that maybe problems are diverse around the world and that the debate course wasn't designed to solve AIDS in Africa? Andrew, my whole point just now was that I imagine that your courses and your content is being pushed to the US and to Canada and to English-speaking nations that are more in line with what we're dealing with here in the US and not actually what's going on in war torn places. But we're getting off track.

Watch the grift.

Again, my gri or my argument for your grift is that things here in the US, it's not a war zone. Ideologically, it's not a war. Online, it may seem like that because the algorithm is pushing to people that it is because people tend to engage with the content that they hate more than the content that they love. If you trigger somebody's fight or flight and if you if you trigger that level of cortisol rise in them, they are going to stick around and they're going to consume that content. It's not healthy for them. It results in increased levels of anxiety, in isolation, in depression, in suicidal ideiation. It's not good.

Link uh link the study.

It's NIH Library of Medicine. I can I don't have a laptop.

NIH Library of Medicine. What's it called?

It's if you look up the consequences of hate watching, I think is what I ended up looking up to find.

The consequences of hate watching.

That's been a study that they've done to see what the effects on these hateful content watching is doing to

Also. Let's just make sure that we got this right. I just want to make sure that we uh we get it correct because I don't want to site the wrong study. National Library of Medicine perhaps.

National Library of Medicine through sponsored by the NIH. Yes.

Okay. Uh so are you talking about this one that um Let's just make sure I got this right here.

That way says exposure to hate. So this is researchers from NLM and the National Cancer Institute have developed artificial intelligence algorithm to speed up the process of matching. That doesn't sound right.

No, that's not

You you were saying uh with the hate in online and traditional media. Correct.

That may have been it. It would behoove me to have a laptop in front of me.

I'm going to I'm going to drop it. Uh oh, I guess you can't see it, but I thought I thought that's what you were stating to is the the social platforms and the online hate stuff. There may very well be the study, but again I

Okay, I'm gonna drop it. Let's find out. Hang on.

I'm dropping that backstage in case you want that one.

Hang on. Let's uh let's pull it up and we'll take a peek here. Let's uh let's make sure that we got this right. Um exposed to hate in online traditional media systematic review and meta analysis of the impact of this exposure on individuals and communities. Does that sound like the study?

It could be. Again, I don't I'm not sure if that's the right

There's a start with the problem. People use social media platforms to chat, search, and share information to express their opinions and connect with others. But these platforms also facilitate the positive of divisive, harmful, and hateful messaging targeting groups and individuals based on their religion, gender, sexual orientation, political views.

I have read that, but I don't believe that that's what I'm citing.

You don't believe that that's what you're citing?

No, I think that that one was based more upon uh receiving hate, like hate comments and such. So you came you so you came to the debate and you're going to source the evidence and the evidence that you're sourcing is I don't know. I can't source the evidence. You don't remember what the study name is. We have to Google it instead and hope that we hit the right we hit the right study. Is that what we're supposed to do? We're supposed to should how many of these studies should we read so that we can tell if you're telling the truth about this or not. By the way, I just I just took a look at that particular study. It was 230 pages. How long did it take you to read this study? Just out of curiosity. I I wasn't clocking it. I don't know. I don't have a timer on when I read things. I don't know. It could have taken me days. It could have taken me a few hours. I don't know.

Can you Can you cite for me the the or at least tell me just off the top of your head since you read the entire study what the methodology was for it and was there a meta analysis associated with it?

No, I can't.

You can't tell me. So, you don't know if there was a meta analysis and you don't know what the methodology of the study that you read was.

Not with I didn't memorize the study. I'm not asking if you memorized it, but you should off the cuff. There's an there's a whole big portion. The methodology for how studies are conducted is extremely important, especially when you're talking about something which you're talking about here, which is uh sociology. So, sociology, yeah, that suffers from

I'm not going to retain all of that information.

I'm asking you to retain any of it. Can you tell me anything about the methodology? Literally anything. Can you give me any anything about the method. one thing about the methodology.

It's outed in front of me. No, I don't have a photographic.

You don't remember a single a single thing about the methodology? You can't Was it men and women? Do you even remember that?

Yes, it was men and women.

Okay. And then what were the ages?

I don't remember that.

You don't know. Okay. What were and and were they post-menopausal? Was that cited? Postmenopausal women.

It very well could have been, but again, you don't have a photographic memory.

That's not a photographic memory. If you're coming to a debate, if you're coming to a debate and the crux of your argument is to cite for evidence a study which you supposedly read to prove that guys like me have a negative impact on society based on something other than your personal incredul, you better damn well at least understand the basic methodology of sociological studies and what the damn thing said.

Of course, if I were a professional debater, that's probably what I would come equipped with. But my point to you is that I am not

You should take my course.

If you took my course, you would have come with that information to make sure that you didn't look as bad as you do right this second.

I would argue that if I took your course, I would be no better off than I am right now because

Based on what by bas I mean I think you would.

Okay. Look, I'm happy I'm happy to move on to whatever the next topic is. I'm happy to do No, I'm happy to continue trying to answer your question for you. If you're still my point, my whole thing is that again, this is unhealthy for our society and it's not actually a major issue outside of the online world, but you're posturing it that it is. you are sort of you're you're fostering this sort of tribe or community where you feel like or where your audience, I'll say, feels a sort of parasocial relationship with you and that if you attack and own your opposer that they've somehow won something. But in reality, it doesn't. They're not any happier. You're not any happier. Nobody's any better off for arguing their ideology in YouTube comments or with their family at Thanksgiving. It's a It's not a real issue. Again, you're giving a prescription for a problem that you're helping further and cause. It's it's like this self-sustaining ecosystem. It's you, but it's also people on the other side. It's Destiny and it's [ __ ] Dean Withers and it's Hassan [ __ ] and it's Charlie Kirk and it's any of them. That's it's all just money. I've sat in on the Whatever podcast, for example, and I watched them in real time collect over $16,000 from people who just wanted to see these, you know, Only Fans, women that were there get owned. And none of that money is put to any better use. None of the money went into production value. None of the money is used to further whatever ideological cause he had. And I'm sure the same is true for your course or any donations. I'm seeing super chats come in and they're not going anywhere that's anything of value. There's no cost here. You're in your home. I'm in a studio in New York. There's nothing's going back into production. It's all just a money grab. You know that it works algorithmically and it's lining your pockets. If the world changed tomorrow, if we woke up and suddenly we were in Andrew Wilson's perfect world, what the [ __ ] would you do? What would you do to make money, Andrew? How would you your grift would be done? Because we'd achieved your goal. But you know that we're never actually going to achieve your goal in our lifetime and in this world. You've set such an impossible standard that you can never actively get there. But you can stoke your followers into thinking that you're you're so close and we're on the battlefield. We're on the front lines. Just give me a little bit more money. Let me monetize a little bit more and we'll be able to get there. But you never actually will get there. You'll never cross that finish line. So you'll just collect and collect and collect from these poor people who have bought into your [ __ ] like they're part of a super church. It's sad. It is genuinely sad. The reason that I responded to that guy on Twitter was because I actually felt bad for him because he was appealing to you and trying to get you to interact with me and to tear me down a notch. At the end of the day, you don't give a [ __ ] about that guy. You don't you don't give a [ __ ] about any of your audience outside of them giving you money. And if it's a threat to your grift and to your money, then you'll engage with me and you'll attack me or whoever it is. You'll challenge that because this is challenging your livelihood. But it's not it's not like a real battle.

So to make sure I got this right,

If I hadn't engaged in this debate with you, that would have been a challenge to my livelihood.

Yeah, because maybe that guy was maybe maybe that guy donates money to you. Interesting because before that you said you tried to get my attention multiple times and I didn't see it or uh or didn't engage with you which is uh which is really interesting because uh it seems like by me not engaging with you that's no threat to my livelihood at all and yet somehow you think that you have enough influence to engage with me or not by not engaging with me or me not engaging with you that's somehow going to threaten my livelihood. I think that's an interesting Well, I'm not misunderstanding and I just let you go on your whole [ __ ] speech, so now it's my turn. The truth is is that people like you, people like you are just jealous as [ __ ] What's happened is you've had a stream of failed career opportunities. You're not a funny comedian. Comedians themselves and satire is the front line of ideological battles. Always has been. Satire, for instance, in Russia was exactly how in the Soviet Union people were able to fight back against the government. that they use satire. Comedians were on the front line of that. Had a long conversation with Dave Smith about this one day and uh clarified this perspective for him as well and I put out many tweets about it. Satire itself is a way in which comedians utilize humor in order to attack ideological systems that they don't like. That's what they do. Dave Chappelle does this. Louis CK does this. Uh Dave Smith did this. Steven Crowder does this. The list goes on and on and on and on and on. And many of those guys I know and have had many conversations with you. On the other hand, you want us to believe that this rosecoled view. The rosecolored view being Andrew, you're trying to set impossible standards. What impossible standards am I trying to set that you think are unachievable in this lifetime? There's many standards which I attack which I think we can go after immediately and try to. Also on top of that, inside of this like rosecolored view that you have, you seem to think that I'm trying to grasp some sort of parasocial relationship between myself and my audience. However, the very industry that you're in, which is a an industry of comics, how are they any different? Aren't you accusing me of the very same thing that you guys do? The entire I the entire idea of why people show up to see Louis CK live when they could just watch him on their TV is because they want to meet him. They want to shake his hand. They want to talk to him. Is that parasocial by nature? I don't think so. I think parasocial has a specific meaning and so does fostering a parasocial relationship. And I think ultimately you've never proved ever how I'm a grifter. And all you've done so far is use arguments from incredul and also use blanket assertions with zero evidence. Andrew, what you believe is this. Okay. Where's the demonstration that that's what I believe? Well, I just think it is. Well, Andrew, this isn't really what's going on. Okay. Where's the evidence that this isn't where what's going on? Well, I don't have any. Andrew, I have a study here that shows Smokeoky Man bad and so are all the other people who are talking heads and influencers such as yourself who are on ideological front lines. Uh, they're all bad, too. And I have a study that shows it. Yeah. Did you read the study? Well, yeah. Okay. Can you tell me anything that's in it? Well, no. And it's like, well, so what am I supposed to believe here? And by the way, it's really funny to me that you in the most uncharitable way attack me for talking to you when you're the one who came and attacked me, right? And so I'm willing to air your grievances out in front of I don't know how many thousands upon thousands of people are watching right now right this second, but there's thousands and thousands of them watching right this second. And I'm willing to air your grievances out. I'm willing to to let you challenge whatever my worldview is so that we can engage in what that is because I think that I can maybe change your mind on some things because I that's what I do and I'm real [ __ ] good at it. But somehow that's still a grift through your rosecolored gra uh glasses and your this idea that everybody's saying [ __ ] kumbaya lady. They're not. That's one. And two, I would like a demonstration of these things past assertion and how you feel. I'd like some actual evidence for any of the these claims. I'd actually like to see that. Can you give me that?

Okay. So, we'll start from the beginning then. I guess I'll clarify what you misunderstood about the whole Twitter engagement. I wasn't saying that I have so many followers and my I have such a heavy influence that what I say about you is going to somehow change by the mass. If I put out a tweet about Andrew Wilson, that's not going to change the masses. But me talking to that individual who does watch you, who does engage with you, who may very well donate through super chats, or who may very well purchase your course, by me telling him and sort of pulling the curtain that you don't actually genuinely give a [ __ ] about him or whatever he's going through, that's challenging your audience. Lady, do you realize like I've been attacked by names that are [ __ ] huge huge in this industry? Hang on. And I'm attacked and I'm attacked by them often.

I am me for being very um incredulous in this case about you and your perceived influence of a guy tagged me in a post. You were talking [ __ ] and I said, "If you want to debate, let's debate."

But anyway, go ahead. Again, I'm not saying that my particular influence is going to somehow damage your Again, me saying anything about you isn't going to just have an outright downfall for you because my audience already doesn't like you. We have different audiences, Andrew. So, me saying to people who already don't like you.

Yeah, I know. I have one, you don't. That's

I have one. You don't. We do have different audiences. It's true.

Okay. And again, that then leads into the whole failure thing. You can try and attack me and insult my career, which is not a failure, which has improved every single year. You can attack the fact that I don't have an audience, but across all my platforms, I do have about three.

Why shouldn't I assume that you're only attacking me? Because you want to try to pull members of my audience towards you.

Doesn't that seem like that's a really good motivation for somebody who has such a small audience to want to engage with me specifically and call me all of these names and a grifter and everything else? Make that the entire centerpiece of what it is you want to debate with me about. Isn't that really just you trying to pull people away? You think you're peel people off?

Audience size. I don't think we have that big of a difference in audience size.

Oh, I think we do.

How many followers do you have across all platforms?

Followers don't matter. It's live engagement that matters.

That's I don't live stream. So, in live engagement, uh, sure, you win. I'm not a streamer, but

It's always been live engagement and who can fill the seats. never about who can buy followers on their [ __ ] Instagram account or who can have a clip go viral.

And 80,000 people sub up and then watch nothing else that they do. What matters is who can fill the arenas, who can fill the seats, and who can get the viewers on them when they're when they're live. Is that you? Are you filling arenas?

I am certainly filming filling comedy clubs and Yeah, that's just

Are you filling clubs or are headliners uh filling comedy clubs and you just happen to go there and do your comedy?

Both. Yeah.

Both. I have Well, that's I mean, you're asking me, but yeah, that's both. And being only three years into comedy, that's quite a feat.

So,

Okay.

I mean, you're saying like you're trying to insult my career and fair enough. I expected you to try and engage in personal attacks and down.

I started the personal attacks then. That was me. That was me. Or did you open in your statement trying to say something about a gay dildo because that was But you didn't really want to say it. You just said it anyway as part of a passive aggressive attack, right? Even though I gave you the floor even and was like, "You can actually say what you want to say to me. I have a really thick skin. Way better people than you have called me every name in the sun. Way way more influential and way more rhetorically effective people than you have insulted me.

I don't feel the need to insult you, Andrew. It's not I don't I think that you're a grifter. I hate what you're doing.

Well, I think that you're griing. I think that by your standard, if we're going to hold to your standard, then you're doing the exact same thing. Right now, the case is that you're saying that there's a distinction between our ideologies. You're saying that your ideology says there's no problem. The status quo is great. Most people are in agreement. You have a differentiation from my ideology, which says that that's not the case. We have an ideological distinction. You're here to correct my ideological distinction, just like I'm here to correct, just like I'm here to correct yours. You say that I'm a grifter because I sell a course. Okay, then you're a grifter because you fill up a comedy club. You utilize satire in the same way that I use um uh political commentary in order to change people's minds and in order to get people to engage with you directly. You're literally doing the exact same thing you accuse me of, but yet somehow you're not the grifter, but I am the grifter.

Correct. Because

What's the distinction between what you do and what I do?

Well, a comedian brings joy to people. It relieves stress. It brings laughter. It's It's not a political

Bet. More people have laughed at my streams than have ever laughed at you in a comedy club.

I can definitely disagree with that.

Yeah, well, I mean, you should come watch a Tik Tok invasion then. It's people laughing for about four hours straight. It's the funniest [ __ ] you've ever seen. But the thing is is like I think that I bring tons of that and I I'm by the way, I'm a political satist as well as being a political commentator. I don't really see you doing anything that I'm not doing except you just decided that you're not griing and I am. The difference is is I wouldn't call you a grifter. I would just say

I'm not monetizing off of what is inherently bad for people. I am not monetizing off of giving people

Yeah, but what makes it inherently bad? A study that you can't site quote and never read.

I did read it and

But you don't remember anything about it.

I'm sorry that I didn't come with it printed out and I don't know the exact sample.

You didn't come to a debate. You didn't come to a debate with a thing that was supposed to make your point in the debate.

Yeah. I'm not a [ __ ] debater, Andrew. That was the whole point.

Is it? Don't you think that's common sense, though? Isn't it common sense? Do you need to be a debater to bring the thing that's the crux of your argument to bring that to a debate? You think that you need to be a skilled debater in order to figure that out?

That I I No, I don't think that the the responsibilities of a debate are common sense. the the responsibility of what who would you ever confront with evidence of their nefarious wrongdoing without the evidence? Who would you ever do that with? Somehow in a debate that goes away for what reason? What? Like what?

Again, I am citing a study. I'm sorry that I don't have the study with me. Sure, that's unprepared on my part.

You know what? If you didn't have the study with you, I'm a very charitable person. I was happy to go through and look it up, but you can't remember the name. I was happy to ask you basic questions about the methodology, the key part of the study. You didn't remember any of it. You didn't remember any of the words in the study. You didn't remember how many pages the study was. Everything that I ask you, you roll your eyes, but if you were in my shoes, the very first thing that you would say is, "See, that person is saying a bunch of [ __ ] that they don't even know is true." Sounds an awful lot like rhetorical grifting to me. If I were in your shoes, no, I would not be asking. All right, what's the page count on this thing? I would not I wouldn't ask somebody.

How would you ascertain if somebody actually read the very piece of evidence that they're claiming goes against the other person's worldview you're arguing with except to ask them questions about it?

If I am sharing a discussion and a debate space with somebody like we are right now, I am giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming that they're being honest with me, unless they're a griffing liar. So, so they're a grifting liar because you didn't bring the key piece of evidence that proved that they're a grifting liar. This is you're a brilliant rhetoric. I wish one day that I had your skills of the doubt. I'm saying that I am trusting what you're if you're citing something, I'm going to trust it because I don't have a method to look it up right now. I don't I all I have is your word. So, I have to trust if I'm engaging in this conversation with you, then I have to trust that you're being honest with me. I have to trust that you're being honest in what that you're saying. And

Why why do you need to trust that? Why is it why is it necessary, especially in a debate, to trust your opposition that they're going to be honest with you? That's more of those rosecolored glasses that you seem to be wearing in life. No, I don't instantly think that ideological leftist scumbags are going to be perfectly honest with me. In fact, I think that they have a lot of motivation to lie to me and lie to me often, especially when their attacks seem to be centered around um their personal view of me. And their personal view being that you're a grifter because you set some sort of unrealistic expectation for an audience that's too stupid to know that they're not going to get a diploma from a a a thing called debate university, regardless of how it was marketed. So, you're a genius and they're all stupid. you're so smart and they're so [ __ ] stupid. Which is so funny because I think all of them would have at least brought the very [ __ ] crux of the study to the debate which was supposed to be the centerpiece of the thing that proved me wrong. Just say it. Again, I'm not claiming to be a genius, Andrew. I'm not and I'm not saying that the grift is just in the name of the course. I'm saying that the grift is that you are making an issue that is not really an issue. You are you are framing it that it is this plague in society.

Well, let's move to that then. Let's start with which issue do you think that I'm making an issue out of that isn't actually an issue. Let's start with that.

I think that just the the whole idea of being in an ideological war is not actually real. I don't think that that's a real thing that people are dealing with in day-to-day goes back to

Why do we have Republicans and Democrats?

Because we have difference in opinion of how we should be governed. Difference in ideologies.

It's not a war. That's not a battleground.

It's not war. It's not a battleground.

As somebody who has seen war, Andrew, I don't take the word war lightly.

So when I say ideological war, um this this is an entailment that there's physical contact and people are murdering each other in the streets.

No, I'm saying that using the term war because that is what war is. War is

No. No. Well, well, well, war has multiple aspects. You ever heard of a the cold war? What was the Cold War? Was there people murdering each other with gunsies on the battlefield? Hang on, hang on, hang on. What was the Cold War? Was it a bunch of people with Uzi 9 millimeters and hand grenades just [ __ ] blowing each other to pieces? Or was it something else? Tell us what the Cold War was.

What I'm saying, Andrew,

Tell us what the Cold War was.

I'm not doing this thing where then you're trying to derail me and get me to define other things. What I

No, I'm not even trying to get you to define. I'm just trying to say if every war is hot, what was the Cold War? What I am saying to you, Andrew, is that by you using these terms like war and battle, you are evoking an emotional response out of people. You are leveling up their cortisol. You are triggering an anxiety response. And you should lie to them instead.

Should I lie to them instead so that they feel nice and happy so that they can be stupid and happy as they become enslaved to leftist ideology? Poisons their children. uh poisons them to the point where they murder their own [ __ ] children to the point where we have one of the lowest birth rates in the the world in in a developed nation. Should I should I just pretend?

Hang on. Hang on. Should I just pretend that none of that's going on so that people can feel better? What? Like what what do you want me to do here?

I can Andrew, we're not in danger right now by the things that I get. I'll give you your you believe that abortion is murder.

Fine. You're allowed to believe that.

We're not in danger. Huh? We're not in danger, Andrew.

I see.

We're not in danger in the way that you're saying that we are. And by

What way am I saying we are?

By somebody being able to argue in YouTube comments or with their family at Thanksgiving does not save them from this imaginary danger. It just makes them feel right. It just strokes their ego. Can you tell me what it is though that I'm saying that I'm incorrect about or that I'm lying about or that I'm being untruthful about or things in which I am producing uh as content for people or things in which I am saying to people which is factually untrue because if you can't then what you're actually asking me to do is lie.

No, Andrew. What I am saying is that all of your content is farmed and framed in a way that's just meant to stoke the divide.

Okay. Can you give me an example of this? Can you give me an example of that content?

Any debate that you've ever been on or any of your appearance on the whatever podcast?

Well, a debate is by definition people with opposing viewpoints who are arguing for what the truth is.

Right. This idea that I'm not supposed to do that. I don't know where that's coming from or why I shouldn't engage in that, especially when I believe that there's an ideological divide. But what you're not demonstrating for me is that there isn't one. Everything you say seems to affirm that there is one. And then you just give me this more of this incredul. The reason I bring up Hang on. The reason I bring up the Cold War,

Cold War,

Would you agree that the Cold War was an ideologically distinct battle between the United States and the Soviet Union based around the ideals of communism, capitalism, Americanism, and Sovietism? Do you agree that this was what that war was about? And it was a war.

Yeah. But we're not in the Cold War right now.

Now, did anybody Now, can you tell me what the casualty rate of that war was?

No, I can't.

Well, there was basically none except maybe perhaps in small numbers by proxy. So, what you've just admitted is that there can be ideological wars and that ideological war hang on. And the ideological wars go on all the time. And I just gave you an example of a really elongated ideological war which ended in victory due to the talking heads and the rhetoric and the subtrifuge and etc etc.

So the cold war you're leaving out the uh the very big looming threat of nuclear destruction. We don't have that because you and I disagree on different topics or because you don't agree with the left. You we're not at risk for nuclear war right now. That's why the Cold War was so horrifying. Wait a second. Uh just just so that I get this clear. The ideal here being this that nuclear bomb blow people up, they die, right?

Yes.

Oh, got it. So woman go aboard child child die, right?

Again, I'm not we're not

Answer my question first and then give me whatever your qualifier is. Woman kill child die. Right?

Woman killed child die. But I don't believe that abortion is murder.

We have a distinction in ideology. So from my view, you're you are advocating for the murder of millions and mass genocide from my ideological perspective. But as long that's okay cuz as long as you say it's not though, then I should just shut up so that you can go around and uh have your rosecolored glasses and pretend all is dandy because otherwise I'll be increasing the cortisol too much in people.

If your only argument and if all you did online was about abortion, I would not have I would not call you a grifter. Then which arguments are you upset about? Which ones?

I mean, I disagree with you on secularism, but again,

Okay, well, let's get into secularism. What is it that you disagree with me on?

One moment, Andrew.

Okay. All right.

We can get into secularism, but my whole point is that again, if you were just doing abortion, something that I truly believed in your heart of hearts, you were like, "People's lives are on the line here. It is murder. It's life or death." Then I would say, "Okay, he's not grifting. He really believes in the violent language that he's he's using. He thinks that this is a war. But given that your your main thing that I've seen you do, I know that you've gone up against season debaters, but you've also I would say majority have gone up against only fans bimbos and people with no formal training or education sometimes with a tenuous grasp on the English language if we're being real about it because you're engaged. Your argument is that I engage with everyone.

My argument

Matter how skilled or how unskilled.

My argument is that because you majority put yourself in that position and you profit off that content where the only reason that you're there is to own these people is to clip farm and to get things that you can sell and make money off of. I think that that is why you are a grifter

Because I make I happen to make money doing something that I'm good at which is expressing the ideological divide and debating my end of it well and because people make clip you do you do realize that I make very few clips myself. I almost never do nor do I

farm them out to anybody. It's usually third parties who make clips of me. Very rarely do I ever do this at all.

>> Just I'm just >> No, no, no. I don't pay. I I've never instructed a single third party to ever make clips of me ever. Not once. Not even one single time have I ever done this. Not with whatever. Not with anybody of which I'm a guest on their program. And I'm there to debate my ideology with people who disagree with it. People like you, for instance, which I'm doing right now. That is exactly what my job is. And I happen to be very good at it. And this idea I I know you had to qualify. Oh, well, he goes after seasoned debaters, too. Yes, I do. And I've debated with the very best of the best. And your argument seems to be that there's always going to be an elite tier of debaters who are in a small queue. There's always going to be a smaller amount of them than everybody else. However, tons of people have issues with my ideology because I'm willing to engage with this tier, this tier, and that tier, and all of them. That somehow that's worse than if I only engaged with this tier. Why?

Because if you were just engaging with people who are in that elite tier, whatever tier you want to put yourself in, if you were only engaging with them, with the people who are equipped to engage with you in that space, I would not call you a grifter. I would say, "Okay, he's doing this for honest reasons."

>> But wouldn't that be the most griing thing? Because that's where I make the most amount of money and get the most amount of clips and get the most amount of notoriety. I actually put myself at I put myself at high risk actually debating with nobodyies who have a massive incentive to get those own me. They have a massive incentive hundreds and hundreds of them to come in and get me with their little gotchas, get me with their little rhetorical flourishes. In fact, most debaters are mostly criticized because they only do what are called safe debates inside of a tier with pre-aggreement. If you don't believe me, you can ask the moderator how many times she's had to probably negotiate negotiate out topics between S tier or high highle debaters because these guys don't want to ever give any appearance that they lost or can get dunked on or this or that. Whereas I engage with everybody. I'm confident in my abilities to basically engage with everybody across the board regardless of their gotchas. That's the least grifting thing to do.

No, you are engaging with people that you view as beneath you, that you know that you're smarter than or more skilled in this area because >> I'm glad you have such faith in me. >> You glad for you because it is better for you monetarily. >> I'm glad you have such faith in me that I that I take every all comers on, right? Regardless of the tier level of their debate, which also very much helps their channels, by the way. I I notice that you forget this that I'm a and this is not a brag. It's not a brag. But the thing is is like I'm a big content creator inside of that this particular sphere. Okay.

>> Yeah. And that is >> when I engage with other people, they make a lot of money and so they actually have the incentive to come and give me the gotchas and [ __ ] like that. >> This the other way around. >> It's a grift on their end too. I mean I >> Everybody's just [ __ ] griing. >> Yes. Okay. >> In this case. Yes. In this in this informal >> Sarah's a grifter. Sarah's a grifter. >> Uh guilty. She's She's making money off of this same unhealthy thing. Yeah, I think she's a lovely woman, but I don't agree with what she's doing. >> So, she's a grifter. Just say she's a grifter. Okay. >> She's a grifter as well. She's my >> So, basically, anybody who's in this sphere who's debating ideologies and happens to make money at doing it is a grifter. But would it be the same if I was doing the exact same thing and made no money? Would I still be a grifter? >> You would be trying to make money. Yeah. >> So, then I would be an attempted grifter. I just wouldn't be good at it. >> Yes. And do you make money doing comedy? >> Yes, I do. >> And what makes you not a grifter there? >> Because I am saying things that I actually find funny that other people find funny and I'm >> And I'm saying things that I actually believe and I'm making money doing that. Why is that worse than what you're doing? >> What I am doing is not stressing anybody out or making them >> Oh, I see. So it's only so the distinction is is what about Louis CK or any of these other big comedians who say jokes all the time that stress people out. It gets in the news for instance. It goes viral all the time. They say the n-word. They say all sorts of things which stress people out. Are they grifters as well? >> No. Because the overwhelming desire and result is that >> No. Because because the overwhelming desire and the intention is to make people laugh. >> I see. So, so as long as they are intentionally not trying to do that, but rather they're intentionally trying to do the thing that they're doing, they're not grifters. And in this case, Andrew Wilson, the guy who's intentionally trying to convey his ideology, he is still a grifter, though, cuz make people feel bad. >> No, you're a grifter because there's no way you believe this [ __ ] >> And when are we going to get to that part? >> Part of the things that I don't believe >> part if you want to get to that part. >> Can we get to the part? Well, it seems to it seems to be as we've reduced this that the entire crux of your argument is that Andrew Wilson's a grifter because he's espousing ideas he himself doesn't believe. I would love to get to the part where we get to the ideas that I'm espousing that I don't believe and the floor is all yours.

I am I've said from the beginning that I think the thing that you don't believe is that this is not really that inherent of an issue. That this ideological war is not inherently an issue. I am not saying and I said in the beginning I said in my opening statement, I'm not saying that you're not an Orthodox Christian. You probably are. I don't know. I'm just going to assume that you are. Maybe you are really a paleocon. I fine. You can be a paleocon. Maybe you believe those things. But you don't actually believe that we are in ideological danger and that we need to arm people to the gills and that you can somehow save them and make them these expert debaters and that that's what's going to, you know. Do you think that I say that I'm gonna make Do you think that I say that I'm gonna make people uh expert debaters or are you just making [ __ ] up? >> I believe I saw the word expert at least once on your website. >> Pull it up. >> I don't >> I mean we can pull it up. >> I can pull it up on my ass. >> Where where where do I say I'm going to make you an expert debater? >> I didn't memorize your website, Andrew.

>> Yeah, so the thing is is like I don't I don't make any claim that I'm going to make anybody an expert debater. I do think that the course can help you with basic concepts like metaphysics, ontology, epistemology, the ideas of structure in a debate, how you can conduct yourself in informal debates. I think that those things are very helpful for people who are online content creators, even if they're not debaters. I think that they're helpful because they come under fire so often. You yourself at some point in your career. I guarantee you this. If you ever get very popular, and God, you know, God willing, you do, good, good luck to you. But if you get very popular in your sphere, you're going to come under attack. And you're going to come under attack often. >> Already have. >> You haven't yet to the degree that you can. And so the thing is is like I'm telling you, you haven't to the degree that you can. But if you do, right, just remember that I told you this, right? One of the be best defenses that people have against these types of attacks is understanding how to deal with them through the issuance of debate, especially blood sports debates, because most of these people are very bad faith in their criticisms of the opposition. They don't know what they're talking about. They didn't really do their research. are making [ __ ] up or they're just using incredulous lines based around one single idea, which is I have an idea in my head that this guy is bad and I'm going to make sure that everything fits that narrative.

>> I can read the uh there's a little introduction at the beginning of the website. It says, "Are you si are you sick of not being able to defend your positions? Tired of your arguments getting undermined by slimy debate tactics? With the verbal combat course, you'll learn the core ideas and techniques required to dominate any argument for in or informal debate presented by Andrew Wilson uh of The Crucible. >> And I do think that those skills are present for you to do that. >> And you don't think that that language has any weight to it of dominating anything like that? You don't you don't think that that's >> Of course there's weight, but I don't see how that makes me a grifter. I believe 100% that we're in an ideological battle. And by the way, if you follow my content, you would know that. Now, here's something I didn't know. Now, I understand at least the motivation behind this. It's that you have an Only Fans account. Is that the case? >> Is that still up? Sure. Maybe that's not the point of this. >> If anybody would like to, but I Okay, but now at least I get I understand that the idea. So, did was there industry friends of yours that that you have that I hurt their feelings or something? >> Oh, no. No, you misunderstand what my only fans is. I don't do porn. I've never engaged in any kind of porn or anything. >> And no risque pictures or anything like that. Nothing like that. >> You can find photos. You can find photos of my ass in a bikini. Um, but I don't have friends in the porn industry. I've done a podcast with I've appeared on uh the SDR show and High Society Radio and those >> And have you moved away from the OAF? >> I thought I deactivated that. I haven't used it in forever. glad. I'm glad if you do like I'm always happy when people move away from that. But I at least now I perhaps understand more of the motivation. But um but here when we get into the >> say this the fact that I've operated on only fans again I don't I'm I don't call myself a sex worker. I've never done porn, nothing like that. >> What was the point? What was the point of the Only Fans? Was the point of the Only Fans to raise people's cortisol? You know, I don't really know uh what viewing cosplay photos does biologically to people. So, >> you think that Yeah. Why did you post them? Did you Did you post them there? Because you thought that it would elicit an emotional response from people? >> No, I posted them there because it was bonus content of my cosplay and sort of behind the scenes stuff and then >> some more. >> And did people have to pay for this bonus cosplay that was behind the scenes? Did they? >> Yeah. Oh, well, gee, that's incredible. So, people had to pay for all of your bonus content to see you in less and less clothes, which is designed to elicit an emotional response. Was that a griff, by the way? >> Not always less and less clothes. Sometimes actually more and more clothes. >> Okay. Was that Was that a griff though? Were you charging people? Did Did you tell people that they were going to get a product and you gave it to them? Be your only fans. was that >> I'm not saying that giving I'm not saying that promising people a product and then giving them that product is not what a grift is.

>> So then what's the grift here? >> The grift is that there we're not in an ideology war, Andrew. Is that people don't need this thing that you're saying that we need? Okay. So let's let's find out if we're in an ideological war or not. Let's start with this. Do you do you believe that I'm saying things which I don't believe? Yes or no? Yeah, I think we >> Okay. Can you tell me what those things are? >> That we're in an ideological war and that we're in ideological war zone. >> I understand that you disagree with that. But the thing is is that if that's the case and you think that I don't believe that. I don't believe that. It doesn't matter what you believe. I don't care if you believe we're in an ideological war or not. In order to demonstrate I was a grifter, you'd have to demonstrate I don't believe that. Right? >> Can you demonstrate I don't believe that? Yeah, I >> how show me show me demonstrate it. >> With the exaggerated language in your course and the way that you conduct yourself online, I think that's a clear indicator that you don't actually believe this [ __ ] You only believe it when it comes to under threat of your pockets.

>> So, let me >> So, I would think so. So, if I was going to try to disprove, for instance, that you didn't believe the ideology that you believed, which I I'm sure you do believe the ideology you believe, I have no reason to doubt that you believe the things that you believe, right? I have no reason to doubt that. But if I was trying to debunk that you believe these things, I would look for inconsistencies in the things in which you said to people and the way in which you said them and the various context around those things in order to prove that you yourself didn't actually believe those things. If it is the case that everything that I spout I believe, right, and you can't demonstrate that I don't, how in the world could you ever make the positive claim that I don't believe we're in an ideological war? Because lady, I very much do. >> If you genuinely believe that we're in an ideological war, >> Yeah. >> then I I've then you're less intelligent than I thought that you were. >> Gotcha. But then it wouldn't But it wouldn't be a gri. But it wouldn't be a grift, right? No. If you were genuinely that stupid and you truly believed it, then that wouldn't be a grift. That would just >> So then So then So then what you actually mean to say is Andrew is not a grifter. He's just stupid. >> No, I think that you're a grifter. I don't think >> Okay. So then can you demonstrate that I don't believe that we're that there's an ideological battle going on between the left and the right? >> How many times do we have to circle around with this? I think that your intentional use of certain language and framing is a big piece of that, but also the way in which you conduct yourself through these informal debates. Do you think so? I I this is what I fail to understand. Isn't my entire job if I was an ideologue to use rhetorical flourishes, logic, and other similar debate tactics in order to move my ideology out there? Wouldn't that be exactly what you would expect from an ideologue? >> Yeah. If you were just moving your ideology out there and you weren't monetizing off of it, then who makes who who what poor people can move their ideology out there? Can you name a single poor person of note uh who can move their ideology or is it all the people who are in control of ideological warfare people have a massive war chest of money which is actually true >> I mean everything does start from a grassroots movement it's not everybody just >> No see this is where you're ignorant almost nothing starts from a grassroot movement almost everything starts from what's called a non-government organization or an NGO and NOS's actually create influencers who they pretend are grassroots activists when they're really not. There hasn't been probably a grassroots an actual grassroots campaign in the United States probably since the formation of the Tea Party, not the original one in the uh late 1700s, but the most recent Tea Party. Uh that that had some grassroots elements to it. But you're incorrect here. almost every single uh grassroots movement you can cite right this second probably has an NGO funding it now you think that I'm wrong or I'm telling you something which is untrue that I don't believe name a single grassroots movement and let's see if there's an NGO funding it I'm ready >> I don't know if that's sure I'll just believe you on that but again I don't think that you're being honest with what you with what you say that you believe I don't think that you really believe that we're in an ideology war >> yeah but the thing is is like right now it's on you. The burden is on you to demonstrate how it is that I don't believe this. The only thing that you've been able to do is say Andrew uses language I disagree with when he sells products. Like, okay, that's I guess that's fair enough. But to to make a claim that I'm not pushing a specific ideology uh and a specific worldview is absurd. I push it all the time, non-stop. Now it it's fair for you even to say then but I don't believe that you believe it but I I really need a little bit more evidence than just well you sell a uni a debate university which you make money from which yes I do make money from uh that people asked me to put together. I had no intention of even doing it. This was a massive request from my audience that I do this because and by the way the reason I didn't want to do it is I didn't want to take the time off of work to [ __ ] spend the weeks that were required to do it. Uh but I did and it worked out okay. I was lucky I guess in that regard. But I would I would like to know like Andrew here's the portion of your ideology that you espouse that you don't believe this and that. Just just saying we have debate university and you line your pockets with it. >> I don't believe that we're in an ideological war and >> you don't believe I don't believe that. Do you understand how absurd that is? If I say you don't believe that I don't believe that. Have we gotten anywhere? If you're if you want to take the position that you are genuinely stupid enough to believe that we're in an ideological war, then I guess I can't stop you. >> I think if you're going to take the position that you're genuinely stupid enough to believe that we're not, then I just don't know what to tell you. Do you see how that gets us nowhere? Oh, you're stupid. No, you're stupid. No, you're stupid. No, that guy over there is stupid. >> I don't think you're stupid, Andrew. That's why I'm saying this. I don't think you're dumb enough to actually believe that. actually believe that you are dumb enough to think we're not. Yes, there is an ideological war in the United States. There has been an ideological war in the United States since the drafting of the Articles of Confederation. There's been an ideological war between the uh Christnats of the time and the state and I can't even man diving into the history of what happened between just the Articles of Confederation and the ratifying of the Constitution to feminism. Yes, we've been in an ideological battle for hundreds of years and it's been very prominent the last 70 years, very very prominent. I have no idea how you could ever look at the mass polarization in the United States around issues like guns, the first amendment, the even the third amendment which recently come out, the ideas of executive power, what's going on with the judicial branch, and pretend that there's not massive uh divides in ideology, just in voting patterns and how people respond to things. And it seems like the only argument you have is, "Yeah, but I talk to people and stuff," Andrew, so you know.

>> Yeah. Andrew, you don't believe that we're in an ideological war and you free you have entered this space to my knowledge you entered the the whole debate space in 2021 when there was already a huge trend in this sort of I don't want to call you just innately red pill but in this sort of we'll say just bro debater online experience once that had really kind of skyrocketed in 2020 that's when it really rose to confidence was during co you joined the space as far as I can tell in 2021 because you saw the money behind it and now you've decided to just engage with what is essentially just this new version of reality TV. That's all that this is.

>> It's for I will I will elucidate your ignorance again. I got into this space by complete accident. I didn't ever want to do any streaming. That was never a goal of mine ever even once. >> I had a happy career and I made plenty good money at that career. I was a robotics mechanic, >> okay? >> And I had uh I made I made plenty of cash, okay? I mean, I wasn't rich, nothing like that, but I made I made decent cash. I had no way ever of knowing that I would become a prominent debater nor influencer. I have no formal debate training whatsoever. Right? The reason that I got into this is she surely by accident. I was pissed off at progressives who are ideologically different from me during the lockdowns and the things that they were doing and so I began arguing with them online. I did not realize that many people would gravitate towards the things that I said. It was a happy accident. You on the other hand purposely go out and are looking for a career in comedy. At least I have the saving grace of saying I accidented myself into this. This was never a plan of Andrew Wilson's at all. And you can look at the early content to to prove it. I said it multiple times is just do this for fun, right? I get I would get off of work and I would do three [ __ ] debates in a night. I hate these [ __ ] people. I do. I hate progressives. Like, you can't imagine. I loathe them. for you to say that that's not the idea of ideology and that uh I wasn't in an experience of ideology when Michigan lockdowns were going on is [ __ ] absurd and it's so disingenuous and also quite frankly it's very [ __ ] stupid. That's the it's the most ideologically loaded time in history, at least in the history of a man who's 41 years old, especially what was going on with the co lockdowns.

>> Maybe at one point you accidentally were, you know, found yourself in it, but you realized how much money you could make from it and how much money you could make from stoking these fears that people have and from engaging with online bimbos and from doing these gotas. And that's what brings us here. you maybe at one point you really love the idea of comedy and then you realize that there was a bunch of money in it and so you're going to make politically correct jokes and you're going to go after red pillars because you because you think it'll get you notoriety but you know you really lost the mission that you had which was to go after comedy for the fun of comedy. Now what you're really after is just trying to demonize the people around you because you were gri make Yeah. Exactly. It's just untrue. The reason I wouldn't come at you with things like that, with trying to ascribe your motivation for things which are untrue, is because it's impossible for me to discern your motivation without evidence. The thing of which you have provided none of. All you've done is been like, I'm incredulous and your and smoky man bad. That's basically all you've given us tonight. >> I don't give a [ __ ] that you smoke, Andrew. >> Don't you give a [ __ ] that I'm bad. >> I give a [ __ ] that you're griing people. Yeah. I wish one day you would demonstrate the grift is all. >> I I mean I don't know how many more ways you want me to say it. >> I think that you're being disingenuous. I think that you're only focused on the money with this and that you know that stoking the flames that people have of being angry online is a great way to make money.

>> I completely I completely agree with you that it requires a war chest in order for me for me to continue to battle. And by the way, the thing is is that um I have bought myself some uh nice luxury guns recently based on what I make online. And I'm gonna buy myself even more nice [ __ ] because I'm a very entertaining guy that people like to watch, right? I'm a very entertaining guy. People like to watch that sort of entertainment. What can I say? They send me a lot of money and I enjoy [ __ ] spending it. They're going to send me a lot more tonight and I'm going to enjoy spending that. But that doesn't mean that these are mutually unexclusive concepts that I can't believe what I believe and happen to be a successful enough entertainer to monetize that as well. By the way, most of these highly successful people do the exact same thing. They monetize the thing that they're really good at, but that doesn't mean they don't [ __ ] believe it. Well, I mean, I will say from my own personal experience when I was at the Whatever podcast, I watched the cameras roll and I watched everybody assume a character and then as soon as the cameras cut, all of the attitudes in the room changed. Everybody just took on their actual real persona, including your boy Brian Atlas, and it all just went away and everybody was a completely different human.

>> Tell me, tell me something because I've had similar experiences there, right? >> Yeah. >> Except with myself. I was the exact same person walking in as I was on camera. you weren't there and that's never and by the way that's never changed. You ask the women who are there the exact same way off camera as I was on camera. The difference is is that when you meet with people for the very first time and you sit down and you start talking with them, you talk about things that don't matter. So, for instance, before you actually went on and the camera started rolling, were you guys discussing abortion, trans issues, feminism, or were you talking about things like who had the nicest nails and what type of shirt you were wearing? Because there's a big difference when you sit down at a table and you're discussing actual issues that matter to you and if you're discussing superficial issues before the show starts, isn't there? Well, but I can say that after the show when the cameras cut and the girls started laughing and were like, "Damn, yeah, it is going to be a good night. I'm going to make a lot of money on my respected thing from the people who were hate watching and from the people who were supporting what they were saying."

>> Yeah. And I've been in studio many times. Many times where the where the cameras roll off and women storm out, they're so [ __ ] enraged they can't see straight. I've seen women attack me multiple times in studio. That's happened to me multiple times, right? And they weren't [ __ ] funing. So, the thing is is like it is possible that there's going to be some people who have uh nefarious agendas who go on to shows like this in order to promote themselves like I feel like you're doing right now. Doesn't surprise me. But the thing is is that that doesn't mean that there's not many who aren't actually ideologically invested in the things they believe and want to discuss them. And I've met many genuine women who've gone on the Whatever podcast who want to do just that. Are there some trolls? Sure. There's some people who are there only to market their [ __ ] I'm sure that's true, too. But are there also people who genuinely believe in the issues and want to discuss them? Yeah, there are. >> I think that's far and few between. >> It's nice that you believe that. You've been on once. I've been on a 100 [ __ ] times. So, >> if I may interrupt the both of you. Uh Brian is in the chat asking if he can call in. I think he wants to either defend his name. I have to leave it to the both of you. If you both agree, that's fine with me. If you don't, then I have I will move on. It's up to you. >> I do not want to give Brian Wilson another single second of money or attention or Atlas, whatever his last name is. >> I will respect it. It is your debate to have. >> What do you mean you give him attention? He has one of the largest IRL podcasts in the [ __ ] world. How are you going to be giving him attention? >> What do you What do you think he What is he gonna get from engaging with you? You are the beneficiary of him engaging with you, not the other way around. >> I do not benefit from engaging with Brian Atlas. He stole 9 hours and 19 minutes of my life that I'll never get back. I don't want to give him any more of my time. >> Oh lord. Sounds like it sounds like sheer unadulterated cowardice to me to be perfectly honest with you. >> Well, you can think that it's that, but it's more so just sheer unadulterated annoyedness. I don't and I've publicly said that. I don't want to talk to him anymore. I did 9 hours and 19 minutes on an empty stomach of it. It was pretty pretty unbearable. >> My god, a full workday. >> Uh, yeah. Until 2 in the morning after my actual workday. >> My god, a double shift. >> It was unpaid. So, yeah. >> Well, wait. So, you're saying that you went on there to promote your ideology? That's really weird. >> You went on there to to do what? I went on there because I thought it would be funny and then I would be able to just have a nice laugh with it. >> So you wanted to >> So So wait, so you're guilty again of the very thing that you're criticizing him of. So you went on the podcast. You went on the podcast because you thought it would be funny. This is a thing that you're trying to promote. I believe that you're totally invested in being funny. So you went there to be funny, right? To promote this thing that you want. Got it. And does do does that mean that I think that you're divorced from uh from your ideology or the beliefs that you espouse there? No, of course not. That would be ridiculous. >> I mean, you Yeah. If you're going on something to be funny, I don't think that you necessarily have to believe whatever ridiculous claims that you're saying. >> The thing that makes comedy funny is that it's rooted in truth. >> Sometimes >> you're told no. >> Sometimes absurdity is funny. Well, the absurdity is only funny because it's pointing out what's true. Otherwise, it can't be absurd. So, truth is always the grounding foundation. In order to point out what is absurd, you have to have something which is true to make a comparison to. >> Comedy is grounded in truth. And so is satire. It wouldn't be funny if you didn't have that. >> You think that comedians never make up funny stories? >> I do, but I think the funny stories are always pointing to something that is true. So it could be that the story itself is false, but it's pointing to things which are true in reality. That's what makes them funny. So what I know an awkward social situation that people have been in many times before and the way in which they uh engage in those awkward social situations. This was the entire sitcom of Seinfeld and Larry uh uh Larry went on to make his own type of Seinfeld show based around the same thing which was awkward engagements. All of them pointing to the awkwardness of what in reality is true. That's what makes satire so funny. That's what makes awkward engagement so funny. And so the thing is is like that's all rooted in truth. Am I to suppose that you don't have an ideology in truth if you're trying to be funny? >> I think sometimes also trolling can be funny when people do it right. I think that that can be funny and that's not necessarily rooted in a >> trolling. Well, well, hang on. Most of the funny trolls are rooted in the truth. >> I would disagree with that. I think it's sometimes Yeah. >> Like which ones? >> I Andrew, I don't know. Famous trolls. >> Well, that's what I'm saying. >> Instances of trolling that I've seen. >> There's different when people say trolling, there's like there's different degrees to this. So perhaps you go online, you're just spouting a bunch of [ __ ] this and that because you want to do engagement forming. That's one type of trolling. Another type of trolling is you make up uh various things about people because you uh you want to damage them because you get your kicks out of it. I've seen that type of trolling plenty too. None of that's actually very funny though. Funny trolling seems to be satirical in nature sometimes. >> Yeah, it's well that's what it seems like to me. >> Humor that's fine. and we have difference in sense of humor and that's that's to be expected but >> I guess but I think like everything that's rooted um I don't think that comedy is nearly so interubjective as people believe because I think if you ask people who the funny comedians are they they genuinely seem to agree across the board and it's because like guys like George Carlin for instance his entire standup was pointing at the reality of situations and then clobbering them with their absurdity but he had to start with the bas basis of truth or people couldn't relate to it. That was the whole point.

>> Okay. You're still a grifter. You're still a grifter is what I'm pointing out. >> Can we move can we move to secularism? I feel like we beat this to death. So, >> what I'm going to say is uh because we're up towards the 2our mark and I know that she had a time limit. Uh I believe it was 11:45 was your wrap-up. Correct. >> That's like hard out. Between like 11:30 and 11:45 is when I need that is fair. So, it's 11:15 now and I believe you're in the same time zone as me, correct? >> Yes. Yeah. Eastern Standard. >> So, we have two options. Uh, we can try to get a quickie of secularism in, which I don't think would actually be productive. Um, or we can kind of move into open panel, read a few super chats, and then wind down and let and let Josie go. >> Okay. >> Yeah. I don't unfortunately. I was actually excited to talk about secularism and feminism, but I don't know that we'll have >> you guys were like nailing into it and I thought it was going to move every time and I was like, "Yes, we're going to get there." And then it came back around. So, what I what I proposed to both of you because this was such a really good conversation. I think that if we want to set up round two and actually do secularism and feminism and we can leave Grifter off the >> Yeah, right. She was so eviscerated in this debate there. [ __ ] You ever come and come back for round two? Give me a break. >> I'll do it. >> Okay. >> I don't think you've eviscerated me. >> It was the worst show. This has been probably one of the worst showings from an opponent that I've had. I just had one of the worst ones last night with these two idiots and they were bad. But this was terrible. Like I would have come in at I would have at least had something just just like anything would have worked. He just really had nothing. It was [ __ ] terrible. >> We were going to stick on this topic for two hours straight. >> Well, then let's come back. come back and do secularism and feminism and God help you on those. That's going to be way worse for you than this. >> I think I'll be all right. >> All right. We'll see. >> But yeah, we can I'm fine with that. We can schedule that. >> Okay. I'll I'll work with both of you. We'll get round two set up. Uh I'm happy to do it. Um okay. Uh so what I'm going to do uh so that we can kind of get the uh open panel and get some people on. We're not going to go into crazy dumpster fire. I want to be able to let questions come in. Um, anybody specifically for Josie. So, anybody who is joining, if you have questions for Andrew, hold tight. I want to just get questions in for Josie. Um, uh, before so that we can be respectful of her time. Um, fire. There we go. Uh, so I'm going to go ahead and drop it in the chat and I'm going to go ahead and pin that link to the top for you guys if you want to come in and um if everyone >> we have to activate. Sorry, I've never used Streamyard. >> No, no, no. You don't have to touch anything. You you just sit there and be pretty. You are perfectly fine where you are. The chat knows what they're doing. The people who do want to come on know what they're doing. Um, let me end that poll so that they can make sure that they see that. Um, okay. All right. All right. So, I'm just going to read a few of the bigger ones if everyone can forgive me on that. Um, and we'll we'll make our way through the rest of the super chats throughout the panel. Um, okay. We've got Eclipse with the big 50 said Andrew's son is about to dunk. Uh, I'm not sure if that's referring to Shawn Wick somehow or or maybe he's saying Andrew son about to dunk. I don't get it. Um, okay. And then Brennan Ball says, "Thanks for doing this, Sarah. If I if I tell my stove jokes, does that mean I'm a comedian?" Also, >> jokes funny. >> I don't know. >> Do you tell jokes to your stove? >> Not usually. >> I don't either particularly. Um, uh, Christopher Scott says, "I love her logic. I watched my hero Academia and henceforth my alter ego uh is fat ninja and I shall begin my caped crusade against crime. >> It has academia right in the name. >> That's I mean my hero academia is not trying to uh promise you that there's like a real world going on. >> I guess it I guess it banks on the idea that people are intelligent enough to not think that they're going to get a degree from watching a [ __ ] anime. I guess >> I I think that people are intelligent enough to know that a cartoon is not real. >> Maybe a >> cartoon which explores conflict and ideology, which is hilarious. By the way, >> I'm not familiar with My Hero Academia, but I know that it's a I know that it's a cartoon. >> I've got one of you backstage that you're your devices are not it says your devices are not connected. You'll need to either jump back out and back in to unfuck yourself or something. I'm not sure what it's doing. Uh, Codin says, "Jossie, thank you for coming on and making yourself look like a complete fool. Much love to Sarah for hosting. Another great takedown." I don't think it this was actually like a fairly good conversation in terms of uh like it didn't get out of hand. You guys were very respectful to each other. I don't think it was all that uh bad.

>> Yeah. I mean, I fully expect that. Like I think that you're lovely, Sarah, but I know that you you side with Andrew on more things. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that you're not completely biased, but I think you're lovely. I like I expect that your followers and his followers are not going to believe what I'm saying or, you know, share the same views as me. I didn't expect to win anybody over with this. >> It's like they have different ideologies. >> Yeah, but we're not at war. How beautiful is that? I'm not >> I don't know. It certainly it certainly feels like uh you came here for the purposes of engaging in ideological combat with me. In fact, to the degree in which you were trying to ascribe to everybody that there is no such thing even as ideological combat in the United States and that the public at large isn't engaging in it and yet here we are engaging in it which is I mean it's ironic and hilarious at the same time if you >> that's kind of the ultimate joke isn't it kind of the ultimate the ultimate joke here I think ultimately is that uh is the irony of saying that there's no ideological war going on while you present a single side of an entirety of an ideological war. I think that that's ironic. >> This isn't a war, Andrew. >> I know. Because war is shooting except all the wars that don't. >> No, because war war has at least the threat of danger in it. There's no danger here. >> Oh my good. >> Oh man. Okay. >> Yeah, I know. That's what then you can go and uh invest in French currency during World War II because people were still out buying their [ __ ] croissants and riding their bicycles around while German soldiers were on the corner with rifles. Just because you have adapted to the normaly bias does not mean there's not ideological warfare going on in the United States. That's just [ __ ] absurd. >> Again, there's not ideological war happening and they don't need you to protect them. I've said that for the last two [ __ ] hours. >> I know. They need you. They need you to come in and tell them that nothing's going on, guys. Everything's just fine. Nothing's happening. Everything's good. Just go to the grocery store. Chocolate milk comes from brown cows, you guys. Like, just go hang out and chill. Everything's fine. I'm going to go get a margarita while the [ __ ] world burns. Yeah. Tell me another lie, lady. >> I know that you putting on a valley girl accent makes you think that your argument is more credible, but it's not. Just because you can get louder than me doesn't make you right, Andrew. Your audience is >> What makes me right is that I'm right. That's what makes me right. You're >> not right. >> You're never You're not going to convince anybody. You'll never >> You're never You're not ever going to convince anybody that the United States is not an ideological battlefield. That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard in my life. The most absurd war. Nobody needs you to save them. But if you want to give in $250, I'm not gonna save anybody. >> You want to go to Only Fan and watch cosplay. You can go spend $47 so that you can figure out the anime stockings or the right anime stockings for the thing. But there's no ideological war. Nobody needs Andrew here. I know. I get it. I know. >> And going to whatever I do is not going to make you suddenly depressed.

>> All right. For purposes of time, I'm just going to do one more for now and then we're gonna go ahead. I've got a lot of avatars going on, but um I I know the bulk of them, so we're good. Um All right. And Chef Dylan says he's griing the entire world. Yes, this is a global grift, ladies and gentlemen. We love it. I'm for it. >> Not the whole world. >> Not yet. >> Fair enough. >> Look out, Antarctica. This [ __ ] is coming. I bet somebody has sent me a super chat from Antarctica before. >> I bet it's happened. >> I would be shocked. They don't I don't think they have the Wi-Fi capabilities to live stream. >> Oh, you're crazy. Of course they do. They have satellite uplinks all over Antarctica. It's one of the It's

One of the places in the world. Antarctica is like a technological marvel in many ways. Almost every single nation on Earth has treaties not to fight with each other in Antarctica because they're all working on technological projects which are there. So they probably have some of the best satellite uplinks. Remember, the satellites aren't going through the snow. It's in outer space. You know that, right? It's in outer space. Satellites work. Are you sure? Are you sure? Because you were concerned about their Wi-Fi a second ago. So, if they're spending their time and their technology on two hours of watching you argue with a comedian, then I am concerned with what we're funding in Antarctica.

I mean, in the future, hopefully they'll go to one of your shows where there was a comedian who spent two hours arguing with me. I mean, we can frame it whichever way you want. Yeah, but they're not funded when they're here in the States where I'm doing shows. That's not what my tax dollars are going to. So, you wouldn't do Netflix specials so people in Antarctica could watch it? I would have a problem if they were spending their time and my tax dollars watching Netflix. Yes.

They're not there on your tax dollars. There are all sorts of private NGOs which send scientific expeditions to Antarctica all the time. I don't know why you would assume that the people who were there are just suddenly lose all inclination to do anything with media. I mean, that's just silly. They are also partially funded by our tax dollars. But we can move on. I installations are. Yeah. I'm not. And the scientific explorations that are funded by grants which are funded through our tax dollars, but I'm not trying to. Some of them. Yes. Yeah. Some of them. Anyway, no shade to Antarctica.

Last one since we're on the move for time. Uh, Vincent says, "No knowledge on any topic, no evidence to prove her accusations. You know that if an ideology gets into power today, it may not affect normally today, but will in years to come. This is actually the end stage of ideological subversion." And we didn't actually get to debate our ideologies because they don't even exist. There's no ideological battle to debate. There's no war. And yeah, there's no ideological war to debate. There's no ideological battle. But we're not war. Let's bring a true ideological war to the screen then. Uh, I've got everyone backstage. Anybody else who wants to go against Andrew or whatever? Anybody else? The link is pinned. I think I got everybody for Josie questions now. Uh, here we go.

[Music] Heat [Music] [Music] up here. I did not. Right. I did not expect you to have a war graphic. That was very funny. I love that. Very funny. Thank you. Most people like the that jam session there. That's probably the only one that the most of the Crucible people like. I think they hate all of my other stuff, but it's my chat's favorite. Everybody backstage starts jamming out to it and they all have a lot of fun with it. So, it's good. It's fun. Pace. Uh, Brian, you were first in line back there. I know you got something to get off your chest for open panel. So, let's go ahead and kick it off. Remember, we want to try to keep this as concise as possible. We have under 15 minutes to go, ladies and gentlemen. Go ahead.

Yeah, sure. Can you guys hear me? We can hear you perfectly. Oh, yeah. I do get to give more of my time to Brian. Hello, honey. So, I only tuned in like 30 minutes ago, so I missed some of the debate, but there was a portion of the discussion you were having with Andrew and you were discussing your OnlyFans. Um, and you said that you deactivated your OnlyFans. I thought that I had. I guess I maybe I haven't. I'll do it right now. Well, hold on. So you. Yeah, that's fine. You thought that you did, but you were playing kind of coy and you weren't sure if you had deactivated it. Um, I thought that I had deactivated like two days ago, like very recently. I made one final post and then I thought I had deactivated it after that. Wait, so you deactivated it two days ago after you were called out in the chat for being active on it two days ago? I don't have access to the chat. I'm in a studio right now. I don't have chat. My sound, my sound engineer girl might. But the way that you were engaging in that conversation, the framing of it was like, "Oh yeah, I deactivated it months ago. I don't even remember." But you were last active on your OnlyFans two days ago? Yes. When I do believe that I've deactivated it. Two days ago. And it's still the it's the first link on your link tree. So if you go to your Instagram or your other social media platforms, why do you still include it as the first link on your. I haven't updated my link tree. Okay. Because I haven't updated my link tree. Okay. So I just need to do that. I don't know. It seems a little strange or the way you framed it. Oh, I deactivated it. I do believe that I did. Yeah. I'm sorry if I'm. Not streaming that. Well. What can you explain what happens to your OnlyFans when you deactivate it? Yeah, you then 30 it goes over the period of 30 days. It's still technically up. You have a chance to undeactivate it within those 30 days if you want. And then after those 30 days, it just shuts down completely and you get whatever money you had in there. Okay? Because on the. I deactivated and canceled it before. Because it says back for a limited time only. So when were you when did you become back for a limited time only? Uh, February, March, I had a um I finally had a nice three-week gap in from work. So I had more time. I didn't have to travel as extensively. So I was able to focus more on cosplay and other stuff. And I was like, "All right, I'll do this again because I finally have time." Because I had it in 2021, I think the end of 2021 to like the end of 2022 and then I just didn't have time for it because I had to travel for work too much. Sounds like a grift to me. Okay. So. Well, no, I canceled it when I didn't have time for it anymore. So, so as recently as two days ago, you were grifting on OnlyFans. I wouldn't call it a grift. I had time for it and then I if I don't have time for it and I can't give you the product that I'm trying to deliver then. Well, you're wait, hold on, but hold on. You're even grifting further then because your OnlyFans is still technically available. It's $25 a month and you're saying it's deactivated but people are still able to pay the $25 a month fee. So you're grifting then. Your only up. It's literally up. If you go to my OnlyFans, I'm sure you can you'll still be able to see it for the next 30 days, but after 30 days it goes away. So you're telling me. OnlyFans is the only social media platform where like for some reason they keep it up for 30 days. Like you can't take it down immediately. Yes. Because you have. Take it down. Because you have active subscribers who have paid for that month. So until the last subscriber like expires, it turns off their subscription at that point. But when the last subscriber expires, then it officially closes your account. But because people have paid for that month, it's still going to give them that month. I don't know. It kind of seems like you're a grifter. I mean, I disagree because it's going away and I'm not stealing anything from anybody. Are you still messaging people on there? I've never messaged people on there. I think there's probably 400 unread messages. I've never responded to one. I don't know. It seems like you're a grifter. Okay. I mean, I disagree because I'm giving people the product, the thing that they're paying for. I'm not trying to harm anybody. So am I. Well, I I don't actually believe that you believe you're a comedian. Like. I mean, I do sold out weekends at comedy clubs. No, but I don't believe it though. I don't think you actually believe that. I did that last weekend. I was in Apple, Wisconsin. I do. There's physical evidence that I was there. Sold out shows. I will be at uh the Port Comedy Club in Baltimore next weekend. You didn't say one funny thing. You didn't say one funny thing on their nine-hour podcast that you were. I wasn't there as a comedian because you made me sign. I thought you came there you came there to troll. Initially, yes. I mean, you made me sign an appearance release right before taping and I read that appearance release and it said that if you troll or turn this into a joke, you reserve the right to finance $10,000. And I was already there and I had already cleared my evening. So, I was like, well, I'm not I'm not going to do that. That sucks. Hold on. It doesn't prevent people from saying funny things. You're a comedian. Nine hours. Not one funny thing you said the entire show. I was very disappointed. Very disappointed. But final thing, and I I want to let the other people go. You said I'm a different person. Like the cameras are off. You know, I'm one type of way, then during the show I'm a jerk, and then after the show. I'm. Correct. Okay. So, what are you talking about? I'm talking about you took on this, you know, the combative persona and like trying to attack these girls or attack whatever they're saying during the filming. And then as soon as the filming wrapped, you went over and you comforted one girl and you talked to her about her daughter and how you didn't she was like, "Okay, thank you for not bringing that up on this." And you were like, "Oh, yeah. No, I get it. I get it. I've made so much money tonight from this. Surely like you, but you were attacking her during the thing." And then you were ch. Never. Hold on. I never brag to the guests after the show about how much money I made. She did. Oh, she did. She did. And you had a laugh along with her. Why weren't you meaner, Brian? You Why more of a dick? What happened? If I may, if I may, I think it's reasonable to believe that most content creators. Minutes. I apologize. You are perfectly fine. We'll be respectful of your time. I I will say it is reasonable that uh most content creators do have a a front-facing persona, right? We do we do reserve the right to keep some of ourselves off the screen uh for a lot of reasons because it exposes vulnerabilities or our kindness or or if we have emotions like that we're not allowed to do. I I think it's fair to say that uh being one one piece of yourself on. Yeah, I I don't know like look I know I've known Brian I've known Brian now for a couple of years and he's really not that different off podcast than on depending on what it is that you're talking about. If it's the case that on the podcast you're talking about. Stop. Hang on. Let me let me make the point and then you can refute it. If if you go on the podcast and you say look at my nails they're great. Blah blah blah blah blah. Brian will be like, "Yeah, okay." Just like he would in IRL. IRL, if you tried to argue with Brian on contentious points, he would argue those contentious points the same way that he does on whatever. This whole idea that before the show starts, nobody's arguing contentious points and all the women are talking about their tops and [ __ ] like that. As though that's evidence that there's a completely different persona, I think is [ __ ] absurd. I think it's absurd. That he's dropped the contentious things after the shows. Wait, wait, wait. So, I This is what I would compare it to. Have you ever seen a UFC fight where these guys spend. No. Okay. They spend 15 or 30, 25 minutes beating the living hell out of each other, and then as soon as the final bell rings, they shake hands, they give each other a hug, and they say, you know, good fight, whatever. In that same vein, yeah, during the show, I get into heated debates. That doesn't that doesn't oblige me to like perpetually be a dick or a jerk or combative towards somebody. I like to say, "Thank you for coming on. I appreciate your time. Thanks for coming." Shake their hand. And I think that's totally within the bounds of, you know, I could have these discussions on the show and it can get heated and then after the show I could be like, "Hey, it was good meeting you. We didn't we we disagreed on these things, but. No hard feelings. Wish you the best." And I can also. That's not what I witnessed. Brian. Well, a good example of this, the guy who's directly underneath me right now, Corinth. Corinth, uh, would you say that you're 180 degrees away from me ideologically? Uh, I would say like 540 because I want to go farther than that, but. And have we're I I would say we're friends at this point. Have we been have we had the most dragout fights ever? Uh, both publicly and in the Discord like. Oh, yeah. There were back in the good old days, it was like 7 hours till 5 a.m. Degenerating fighting fighting about various ideological issues. The thing is though is that when we're not fighting about ideological issues, you can still uh enact a sense of decorum and kindness. Is that not correct? Oh, yeah. I think we've been doing that in Discord these days, too. We've been playing uh Sons of the Forest for like six hours a night or something. Yep. The thing is is that I think that there's a distinction. I think that like I've talked with Brian behind the scenes and we've argued even behind the scenes about various like micro issues and things like this. If you don't have contentious if you don't have contentious issues, uh, why why is it that you have the expectation that somebody's going to bring those contentious issues to bear? The show is about the contentious issues around dating. And of course, it's going to get heated and of course there's going to be various ideologies which are going to engage. I think it's [ __ ] absurd to think, "Oh, it's all just a persona. Give me a break. One, I saw the persona drop. Okay, let me say this because I have literally like 30 seconds before I have to leave and then I have to catch my train. I am not saying that you're allowed to you're if you're friends offline, whatever. I'm not saying any of that. I am saying that his persona actively changed and his the way that not just oh he's suddenly friendly to the girls and there's a level of decorum. I'm saying that he was laughing along with them as they were talking about grifting the audience and and creating this character. He was laughing along with that. And slander. Slander. Was happening with the chick in the in the pink with sitting next to. And I'm sure. Stop talking, dude. I have literally like 20 seconds at this point. Okay. I'm saying that. Andrew and Brian are in the same [ __ ] grift. It's the same [ __ ] You're just riing people up to make people mad to tune in to listen to you own these chicks and then you get money and then you get views. It's not good or healthy for anybody. That's been the entire crux of my. The same to you of saying that everybody else is a grifter except for people who believe like you do and inside of your ideology and everybody's disingenuous except for you. Only you are the most genuine person. Everybody else is a grifter. Doesn't make you right. You. Cutting me off doesn't make me right after I let you finish either. Cutting me off. What I'm saying. I didn't cut you off. You were done. I have disagreed from the beginning that people who like Destiny or people who might be closer to my ideology, people on the left, whatever, they're grifters, too. I know everyone's a grifter except you. No, everyone's a grifter but you. I know. And makes money off of trying to stoke the fears and the separation of people. That is the grift. And. One joke. One joke. Yeah. Can you give us one? Can you give us one joke before you go? I will be out in I'm not giving you anything. I will be out in Santa Barbara in November. Good night everybody. Sarah coming out. Thank you. She's gone. Leave her alone. Well, hang on. I Well, I did want to thank her for the debate. We can. I will. Hi. Hi, Brian. How you doing, man? How you been? Hey, Andrew. I'm doing well, man. How How are you? I'm doing I'm doing well. Always nice to see you, my friend. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um. Oh, that was funny. Um, um, I I wish I could have asked her a question because I came in here as my capacity of um, as an understand professor on sociology and I'm really embarrassed and humiliated with the way that someone will come quote a study and they don't know what they're talking about. Every single time. Every single time, bro. Every single damn. As a sociology professor, I feel like just jumping into the middle of just having just offing myself. I I hate it. I don't. Okay, am I right? Hang on. Hang on. I got to ask you, dude. Yeah. Nothing on methodology. Couldn't cite what the study's name was. She didn't read the [ __ ] study, right? She didn't read the. She doesn't know what the [ __ ] she's talking about. She just comes out and she says, "I was just asking. Did she read the study?" She didn't read it, did she? There's no. She doesn't know what the [ __ ] she's talking about. There's nothing like that. I don't I don't even know what she's even talking about. She just comes and she says hate watching leads to increase in cortisol, increase in adrenaline, increase in high blood pressure, increasing increase in your dick. Everything is rising. Your dick is rising, your cortisol is rising, everything is and then you're like, okay, where are the studies that again she came in with a narrative? Because if you listen to the way she's talking, it's almost as if she's reading a script. The problem is that even if you come with a narrative, you have to come with evidence. You need to know the studies that support your narrative. I have nothing against people having narratives. You need to have empirical support for your evidence. And every time you pose as if you are citing a sociological study and I hear people talk about that nonsense and. You can learn all of this. On debate university which me and Brian Atlas pioneered. You can go and you can uh you can you can actually learn this stuff so that when you come to a debate you don't [ __ ] embarrass yourself. But but but Andrew but Andrew the problem is that I'm not going to get a certificate when I come to debate university. You're not giving me a certificate. So why should I why should I come for it? She says you're not giving certificates. Look hey you know not everybody needs that. But some people right maybe they they want to engage better in this field. This is a way I can at least tell them to show up with the [ __ ] study they're citing. Don't you think that that's at least I mean if all you took from the value of the course is that you should show up with the study you cited then me and Brian must have done a pretty good job right that that would be one thing at least at the very least if people say make a claim you should cite the study that supports your claim these are things I even teach my students in class you can't just cite a claim and just say this is bad for you and just leave it as that and just expect everybody to believe and I like the way you argue with these people every time they make this claim, please ask them where is the evidence. Nine out of 10 times they don't know what they're talking about. They know nothing about what they're talking about. I've heard so many of them so many times and it brings so many bad PR to sociologists because we're just looking at all this nonsense and we're like, why are these people making all these claims? We didn't make your your field your field is inundated with the worst of the worst though, dude. And you know it like it's inundated with the worst of the worst because they have political ideologies. They have political ideologies. Dude. I'm not going to come here and defend them. There are bad actors in every field. And like my field, yeah, there are bad actors. I've seen bad studies. I've seen horrible studies where someone studied like. I'm not even talking about bad studies. We get we get that. I'm talking about people who misrepresent studies that they've read as though it makes their claim for them when it's clearly it clearly doesn't. You know, they they use them like Yu-Gi-Oh cards, right? They're like blue-eyed white dragon study versus my [ __ ] you know, uh, eight man eightman [ __ ] power 10 [ __ ] study. They use them like [ __ ] Yu-Gi-Oh cards, bro. Okay, they do. Am I wrong? They do. You've activated. Let let me give let me give you an example. There is a particular one that people always cite. They would say things like single women are much more happier or much more um this than married women. And that study has been that claim not study that claim has been um cited in so many places that I cannot believe it. Yeah. And it's not true. The evidence doesn't show that. False. Yeah. Totally false. Nonsense. Eugene, could you read chat for me, please? But I like Eugene. Eugene's great. You should ask it to me particularly. [Laughter] Do it again. Do it again. One more time. We're complete silence. Okay. Okay, let let me let me let me say like that guy. Why are you gay? It was perfect. Okay, that was pretty good. You you are gay. Uh, XQ comes in with the big 20 says there's there's no war in Basin. Bossing say. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Like, but Andrew Andrew, I want to ask you a question. You know the Salvation Army? Do I know what? Do you know the Salvation Army? Yeah. Do they have a literal army? Do they carry guns and knives? No, but it's a it's a war on poverty. It's a war on poverty, but that doesn't exist. Yeah. That means we're coming up against. That's a really good [ __ ] point you just made, man. The Salvation Army, they come in with machine guns to to to blow away poverty. Heavy artillery. Very heavy artillery to go fight wars. You're 10 times more funny than the [ __ ] comedian who was just on here. And the lady was standing on this idea of debate university like she was making a point like she was saying something really insightful. Some people are not intelligent enough for the kind of conversation they want to have. I don't go around debating even though I'm a faculty professor because I'm not intelligent for certain conversations. And she stood on it like as if debate university was supposed to give you a certificate. And I kept looking at the lady like, "What the hell are you talking about?" Oh. It's so ridiculous. You should have asked that. You bring up a good point, too. And in debate university, we go over that like, look, you don't have to argue things that you don't know anything about. You can just say, "Hey, look, I don't know about that. I'm not going to engage in the debate. We can move into things that I do know about." If you do want to engage in a debate, which is [ __ ] you know, reasonable. It's like reasonable and rational. They cover university like what she was doing how she was using the one case of university and higher education and using university in the sense of like just general learning things. Did you go over that fallacy too? We did. We did. I did go over it. I did say well it has the word university so that must mean you get some sort of certificate or something like it's absurd. The thing is is that the the crux of all of this really revolves around this fellas and it's very simple. I know Brian probably has to go. Um, it's great to see you too, Brian. But the crux of all this really moved around with this one issue, which is the idea of me grifting is that my audience is so [ __ ] stupid that they could never ascertain that they were not going to get some sort of accredited degree from a course which is marketed to make you a more skilled online informal debater. That is the most insane [ __ ] [ __ ] I've ever heard. And I don't actually know how to even deal with the idea of how you came to that conclusion. She uh she reminded me of Drax. Only the Rumble people are retards. Not the not the you know like Rumble. Sure. Maybe some of them might have thought that but man the overarching audience. No [ __ ] way. There ain't no way. A couple of the day shifters based on the last few days. Maybe a couple of day shifters. Maybe. She reminded me of Drax Guardian of the Galaxy taking everything literal except she just wasn't funny. Andrew, you have the you have the patient of a saint because it takes the patient of a saint to keep arguing against her when she was keep when she kept raising that ridiculous nonsense called the point of debate university. I couldn't even stand I had to take my earpiece off and just. Listen listen let them reiterate it time and time again because that's actually funny. You should have asked about Salvation Army. You missed that. You Why not university if university and name? I want to pass it over. I want to see if uh Brick K Defnot uh Corinth um had any or even Eli Azrael had any thoughts to add in aside from the debate university or. So and so on debate university. I haven't um taken your courses or anything, but um shameless plug, I did make a video so that if you don't want to pay the money to take the course, you can just watch my video and you can debate just like Andrew. Guaranteed 100%. I promise. I'll even give you a certificate. There's no certificate. But I do wonder why like we we stayed so long on the whole like are you a grifter thing? Cuz that was like hours of going in circles of like you're a grifter. No, I'm not a grifter. She wasn't willing to concede the point. Andrew, you. To be fair, we did have another debate like this uh actually just just about a year ago. Andrew, uh somebody made the claims that Andrew was a liar and a grifter as well and that was a full like two three hours of of very similar talking points. Um. Yeah, it just seemed like there was like other stuff planned and it seemed like that was going to come first and maybe like the grifter stuff was going to be like an extra. The entire the entirety of the debate. the entirety of the debate call out from her on Twitter X to me and Sarah can confirm this was that I was a grifter. Right? These other the the secondary and third debate prompts were tangential to that prompt. Okay. I must have misunderstood the way it was phrased. It seemed more like the other thing was an extra. It's it's really weird to make like a whole debate prompt of Ma Grifter cuz that's. It's really weird to me that it's weird to you. Because I'm willing to take on my detractors doesn't seem weird to me. It seems like I'm a person who's willing to actually hear what you have to say and refute it with the actual information. I would say this isn't the first uh like attack Andrew's channel or attack what Andrew does show that. Nor is it the first that Brian Atlas has had the first time that people have attacked his show and then when we are able to actually confront them about these things we watch them collapse in real time. It's just 90% of attacks online are [ __ ] [ __ ] I don't know what to tell you. They're [ __ ] [ __ ] Sure. It just seems like more of an opinion thing, but I'm not gonna harp on it. And it just like. Well, it's Hang on. Kind of like a. Yes. Yes. and no. I think that that you could say almost anything is an opinion thing, right? But there could be actual good evidences that I was grifting by the definition of grifting that she gave. She just didn't [ __ ] have any of them. But I'm always willing to hear them out. If you have actual evidences of me grifting or giving a product to somebody that they're not getting or uh fleecing people for money that they're uh that they're not willing to give because they're enjoying an entertaining channel, I'm willing to engage with all of those things. But uh and. Andrew, I honest people stay honest, right? I haven't that. Andrew, uh one of your Canadians you hire has been very slow on fixing the website issues that caused. It's all fixed now, bro. All fixed now. I'm just saying there was a good week and a half where. Mr. It's true. It's true. There was a time for about a week and a half. There was an additional plugin we put on the site to make it more convenient for people. It backfired. We had some issues with the site and then he worked his ass off and got it fixed. I know. I know. Sometimes the demand a week ago he had this defeater for you, Andrew. I know you. What was I thinking? Current that statement you just made has given us more evidence of Andrew Griffin than the whole hour or two hours of debate that that lady was engaging with Andrew. I doubt that lady knows the meaning of evidence. I doubt it. I don't think she does. I want to open it up to K. Did you have some thoughts to add in here? Um, yeah. I think that I think that in a debate if you accuse your opponent of lying without cause that in itself is bad faith, right? I I'd say it could be deemed that way. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, I think that um I think. I'm not I'm not convinced that. I'm not convinced that she didn't that what the evidence she put forth wasn't legitimate evidence. Basically, you know, like the the the whole I would have I would have to see more of Andrew's content to know what to be sure of that cuz she basically, you know, referred to the way Andrew carries himself in this space, which if if that is the way he carries himself, then I could see the argument. ment that he's a grifter. But yeah. But it's about due diligence. If you're going to make the argument that someone's a grifter, you should look at what they are doing. You should look at their products, should try their products, see the quality of those products, and then make a critical evaluation that okay, this is good, this is bad, and then come with that evidence to the debate and attack Andrew with them. Maybe debate university might be a clump of nonsense. It is very possible that that's the case. Do your due diligence, take some courses in there, see what's going on in there, and then come with your evidence. Not that, oh, you're a grifter. Why do you think he's a grifter? Because I just think he's a grifter. Deep in my heart and in my soul and in bottom of my spirit. But everybody knows that. But everybody knows that I'm a grifter, right? Everybody knows it. So that's what matters here. Of course, everybody knows it deep in their soul that Andrew. The truth is is that the the online field is just like any other. Um, if you bring value, you get paid handsomely for it. If you don't bring value, you don't. It's really that simple. Are there people who fleece their audiences based on scams and things like that? Yes. They don't seem to last very long. Once that stuff comes to light, I don't blame uh anybody for uh kind of attacking those people viciously. Many many such large creators have fleeced their audiences based on uh promises of things that they uh they don't deliver on after an audience has paid for those items, right? And that's just just not the the case objectively here. That would be a very bad business model. one and two, the entire point of me being the best grifter on the internet is that it's satirically pointing out that you can do business in a good way and not actually grift anybody. If you're an entertaining persona and you uh people enjoy watching your content, yes, you'll probably make some money online, but that's few and far between where you find those creators. So, there is one thing that you said, Eugene, I don't necessarily agree with. Um, you mentioned that you should try out the product. Um, I would say that you don't necessarily need to try out the product to understand what a scam is. Um, on on the other hand, um, I. Reach out to those who have tried it out. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know. I mean, you should get an experience of that what what that product is. Right? Right. You should have some type of experiential uh, I guess data, something to argue from. I I wouldn't say you need to actually get the product, but at the same. You can meet with people who have taken us ask them. Rick, he's saying in order to tell it's a scam, we have to send his cousin the money first. Right. Right. Yes. Please um buy guns. Okay, yeah, that was funny, bro. That was that was objectively funny. Ladies and gentlemen, I do have to get off of here. Brian, it was really good to see you, man. Um, uh, I I've noted that, uh, you're doing doing good things over there still. Uh, why don't you tell the audience where they can find you before we go, man? Oh, yeah. Me? Yeah. I mean, they probably. Uh, YouTube, YouTube.com, whatever, whatever on pretty much every single platform, Instagram, Twitter, or I guess X, everywhere. Are you guys wrapping up? Yeah. Well, I don't know. I don't think they're wrapping up. I uh I do have some other engagements this evening I have to get to. Andrew. You want to do you want to stay and play for open panel Brian Sarah style? Andrew. Andrew since you have all the Okay. Andrew, since you have all these softball debates where you just come and crush people, please. The Crucible channel, the Crucible crew, please, I just want you to just give Andrew an L for no good reason. Nobody's going to give him an L since that since that. We've not had Andrew have an L. So, crew. Everyone, please just hand Andrew an L for no good reason. Give him an L. Thank you very much. [ __ ] I'm out of here. You can find me on the Crucible. I'm out of. Have a good night, Brian. [ __ ] the rest of you. You [ __ ] dicks, dude. I'm out of here. Producer is going to kill me. He's trying to kill me. You do not know the way. You do not know the way. Fair enough. Uh, and okay, you want definitely not wants to boot Eugene. Uh, and she's gonna take your place. You're going back to the backstage and I'm waiting for one other spot. It's too late now. I don't care anymore. Oh, sorry. Yeah, it's kind of when um Hold on. Hold on, Ryan. Let me kick you back out because I I was holding that spot for someone. Sorry. Hold on. Um, okay. Um, what happens sometimes when people are on a time limit, the open panel runs a little bit differently. Uh, and I got you. Are you still staying on cam back there? Thank you. Um, when when um when open panel runs a little differently, it gets a little harder to manage only because we are on a time crunch and then I don't get to get to the super chat. which which makes me sad. I do apologize. Um but thank you Lost for telling me that's the only way Mr. E could communicate me with me at this point. Sorry I wasn't paying attention to you, Mr. E. Uh, go ahead M. I'm sure you have something to say. I just want to say the next time somebody has these sort of criticisms for Andrew or the Crucible or the debate course, just DM me. I could have answered all these questions for you and saved you all this embarrassment. And also Kent, you're [ __ ] dead, bro. Like you're dead. I'm gonna find you in real life. No, I'm just kidding. That was. Well, sometimes the videos don't get uploaded all the time. That breaks my heart. Yep. It's all your fault, Mr. But we're going to make this. We're gonna do this right now. So, we're now on on the chopping block, Mr. E. This is all your fault. Remember, anything. I'm literally sitting here with my hands behind my head. It's always your fault, Mr. E. It's always your fault. Yeah. For L at this point, Sarah. You know what? Kick him off. I want to see if this works. Kick them off right now. You have to You have to Somebody has to pay to boot him. I got to pay to boot him. Yeah. I'll remember. I'll remember that, Sarah. Oh, yeah. What do you do about it? I guess we'll find out. You're supposed to rip the chat, Mr. E. Hello. He will audience he will break each and every one of your kneecaps unless you pay to boot me. He will find you the viewer, the person listening to this. I'll come to your house. Uh, who's going to be Mr. E's uh Captain Sabaho right now and pay to boot Corinth? Nobody's got to do it. No, it's fine. No, no, you don't have to actually be They boot Corinth even without you asking. They they boot him all the time. We need Mr. L's save the house. Hey Dave, those Gundams behind you, send me one and I'll put it in the whatever studio. I Those aren't Gundams, they're Transformers. Oh, [ __ ] that. Never mind. I don't want it. And shout out to Angry Man. He was on He was on the last two open panels and we've decided to actually um bring him back. He'll be here not next Thursday, but the Thursday after as a feature. But Angry Man says, "Shout out to Brian for having my guy what? Loshophopical." Thank you, Angry Man. Appreciate it. I philosophical on the show. There you go. Transformers are better than. Transformers. Oh my god. It's too bad that Andrew left right before I got back on. I was going to see if he would have like a debate with me since apparently he debates with anybody cuz people say I should debate him on rights. On rights. What about him? What? What do you mean? What about them? He has this whole thing of like. What is your position on rights is what I'm asking you. Like. Um, not his obviously. So you believe you believe they exist like in nature? Um, I believe they exist as a concept that's real enough for it to matter. And uh, women should beg men for rights. Like I. That's not his position. Oh, so you're just a [ __ ] [ __ ] Okay, I got it. Cool. That's not his position. That's literally not his position. Him saying that as that being his position. That women. No, no, no. So, rights. No, no, listen. No, no, no, no. Do you want to know the position or you want to yap like a stupid bra? What do you want to do? You want you want to know the position or do you want to [ __ ] run your mouth? Which one? Yeah. Andrew's the nice one. Andrew is the nice one. Okay. Do you want to know the position or do you want to just [ __ ] run your mouth? Which one? Just calm down and tell me what you want to say. Jesus Christ. I'm calm. Okay. I'm asking you a question. You're not lying when I told you that's what he would do to. Can you go ahead or what? Like chill. Jesus. Can I go ahead and answer the question for you? No, I can't. Sweetheart, now do you want to answer the question so we can move on? What? Would you like to know his position? Yes. I'm supposed to answer that question. What is wrong with Mr. Every position that Andrew takes? All right. So, his position is not women should beg men for rights. It's that rights only exist via force. That force is only really applied via men. Therefore, without men, women have no rights. Yes. You your rights are derived from force. All rights are derived from force. That's a very very simple very very simple overview. Right. I disagree with all of that. So, and I do have quotes saying that. Which parts do you disagree with? Um, all of that. Just. Okay. In which way do you disagree? I don't think that rights are derived from force and I don't think. What are rights derived from men? Women should be men from for rights. Okay. Well, I didn't say anything about begging. So, what are rights derived from then? And I wanted to argue with Andrew, which is why I quoted him, not you. I don't know what you think. Sorry. All right. So, what do what do you think rights are derived from, hun? Hun? Um, the. Yeah, I said hun. I'm being I'm being uh intentionally uh rude here. That's what it's called. Call me H. Okay. Um I feel a little bit on the spot, but generally I would. Well, you're the one that wanted to debate, Andrew. If you thought it's a I have a way easier than literally right this second. But yeah, I. You're going to have a You're going to have a much easier time winning against me than Andrew. Hey, sorry to interrupt. I have to uh I have to go. But uh thank you so much Sarah for having me. Uh mystery, you're a [ __ ] legend. Uh. You're a legend. Oh, thank you, man. Appreciate it. Never mind. Good to meet you on the panel there, Brian. Yeah, good to finally meet you, man. We should have you. That That was fire, man. We should have you on the show sometime. Um but yeah, thank you for having me. I hope you guys have a good night. Thanks, Brian. Thanks for popping on. All right. Cheers, bro. Um. All right. So now I'm very curious where where are rights derived from if not from force. Uh.

Mutual agreement and respect for the most part.

"Okay. And when somebody decides to..."

"Yes. I somebody decides to do something naughty which is very rare. Force is a bad..."

"It's very rare. So everything let me get this right. You think crime is very rare."

"Uh I think it's more rare to have violent crime in a way that infringes. There's a lot more ways to There's a lot more ways to violate rights without being violent."

"If I steal from you breaking into your garage, I've violated your rights. I've not been violent towards you."

"Property damage is violence."

"Interesting."

"So, you think property violence is or property um like what we say messing with somebody's property is violence."

"I think if you like physically damaged stuff, that's being violent."

"Okay. So, let's say I pick the lock and get into your garage and steal your things. Am I committing violence on you?"

"I wouldn't call it violence colloquially."

"So, I can violate your rights without being violent. Good. Now, moving on. So, most rights or sorry, most rights violations, as you said, are violence. Is like you just kind of like contradicted yourself already. So..."

"most rights violations aren't necessarily violence because you..."

"No, you think they're crime."

"right? But then you said violent crime specifically and then I was able to get you to contradict that violent crime. It can be violent crime. It doesn't always have to be violent crime."

"Yes. Thank you for making my point that crime is a violation of rights and you said rights violations are rare to which I countered. So you say crime is rare."

"You could have a violation..."

"and then you countered. Well, it's only violent crime."

"You see how you've wrapped yourself up in a pretzel in less than a minute."

"right? While we're talking about wrapping things, uh, the raging tomato is going to be shutting down here momentarily and we're just going to be shifting over to the gauntlet. Uh..."

"oh my god. Does that mean we have to watch another one of these [ __ ] intros? Sorry."

"You don't you you don't..."

"I'm just teasing you, Sarah."

"Are you in a really big room? It's like super echoey like you're Okay, just making..."

"I am in a big room."

"The mansion that I pay for with all this hates furniture."

"Well, Mr. E sits and cries in his mansion. We're going to be shifting over to the gauntlet here in about 2 minutes. I'm going to continue dropping the link in the chat as well as the mods. Uh if you want to shift now, go ahead and do it now. If not, just hang on tight and we'll rage you over. Uh uh Harry wants to boot the mass murderer, which would be definitely not. Um I wanted to at least ensure..."

"Mr. E and uh uh Death Not we're were done with the conversation unless you had a little more or something. Mr. E with her."

"No, that's fine. I think I think we've demonstrated enough that she has no idea what the [ __ ] she's talking about. Um..."

"you have I think you just yelled at me a lot and didn't listen to what I said."

"I didn't yell at you once, son. But go ahead and cry me a [ __ ] river about having a little bit of a little bit of a harsh tone with you. Oh, kidding me. Let me guess. You're also a [ __ ] feminist, but I'm supposed to treat you with all this like extra care and consideration. Get the [ __ ] out of here."

"[ __ ] retards. All right, kick me off. I got No, I'm going to [ __ ] burn your toss here in about 10 seconds. Okay..."

"calm down. Jesus."

"I'm sorry, lady. Uh, but stupid people annoy the [ __ ] out of me. I deal with them every day professionally, so I just I'm all out of patience. Huh?"

"Okay, so based on one opinion about rights, you just decided that I'm stupid and a feminist, apparently."

"Yeah, it's enough. Sometimes one is enough."

"Okay..."

"thank you for the demonstration. I don't think you're a complete idiot. Maybe there's some things that you believe that aren't entirely stupid, but this ain't one of them."

"Wow. Okay. So, you're just right about everything and you didn't actually hear..."

"I'm sorry. When did I say I was right about everything or did I just say I'm right about this?"

"In this conversation? Nothing."

"In general..."

"lots of things. For instance..."

"I think some women are smart enough to debate. Clearly, I'm wrong."

"Wow."

"I mean, I'm waiting for one of you to prove it, but every time I try, you let me down."

"Okay. You just mad. So..."

"Oh, good comeback."

"Good comeback, hun. Call me mad again."

"Rights. Or do you just..."

"You're so mad."

"whatever it is that you're doing."

"Moging you is what it's called."

"Okay. Well, I did have the..."

"nice I can't even [ __ ] take you seriously. It's I'm sorry. My bad. This is This is my fault. I've been so mean. I should have known I wasn't going to get much, but you know, it is what it is, I guess."

"Okay. Jesus Christ. Well, thanks for coming down. Um, I guess I'm booted or whatever, but I appreciate the time. The challenge still stands. If Andrew wants to debate without yelling at me..."

"uh, join the Discord and we can actually have we'll have a proper conversation about it if you want."

"Sure. Yeah, I'd like that."

"All right. Links in the description on the..."

"woman. I can also invite you not if you want me to DM you that. Um..."

"yeah, sure. Sure. I'll take it."

"You might need a moderator for that conversation because it's going to go a little bit off the walls."

"Yeah. Something makes me look real angry and like really angry."

"Lady, you have not seen me angry. This is me like just joking around and having fun."

"If you can't handle a little bit of aggression, what are you doing in the debate space? Maybe like..."

"go to a [ __ ] nursery or a preschool or something."

"Different rules. Okay, just treat her like..."

"Holy [ __ ]..."

"different rules."

"You know the debate..."

"the man I tried to do blood sports debate with wasn't nice enough to just let me take control back over my panel. If you are watching on the tomato side, we're going to go ahead and shut that side down now. Uh you will be raided over to the gauntlet if if you haven't already gone over. Thank you so kindly."