Transcription
Boris Johnson, we'll have a new prime minister installed this week. It's a fourth since you left office. Now, it strikes me that all your successors have had to deal in some way with your legacy: Ukraine, migration, uh, Brexit. So, let's take them one by one.
What do you want to hear from Andy Burnham on Ukraine? I want to hear that the UK government will not only stick with Ukraine, but will be even more resolute in support of Ukraine. Now, the the the problem we've got at the moment is that it sort of feels like the Ukrainians are are doing better. And their their drone technology, their bravery, they're they're scoring fantastic successes against the Russians. And you know, by some counts, they're killing uh more Russians than Putin can recruit. They're killing 30,000 a month or or whatever. And so there's a in the in the Western media, everywhere, there's a great deal of excitement about Ukraine's prospects. And you know, I've got no doubt they are going to win.
>> You've been there in the not so decent past, recent past.
>> Yes, I Yeah. Yeah, I have. And I I did a I I went to do an article for for for the Daily Mail and they brilliantly took, you know, I was I was sort of being um taken by some fantastic male journalists who who kind of, you know, sherpered me like a sort of, you know, um incompetent alenist um up the mountain and they and they they they showed me the front line. They showed me this so-called kill zone like and you know, I have a real sense of of what's going on. There's a there's a there's a a film coming out about it. But you know what I what I really take away from it is that the Ukrainians are still under huge huge pressure. They have a big recruitment problem. The suffering of those people in those trenches which I I saw which I think the uh the male film will explain. It it was it's terrible. And what we need to do, so you ask about the the new UK government or Andy Burnham or whatever, uh what we've got to do is get this thing over. And one of the reasons it isn't over is that Putin doesn't really know from the West what we want. And we won't declare that we really really want Ukraine as part of the western committee of nations, group of countries. So NATO, for instance, is the crucial thing. And as long as Putin thinks that there's that ambiguity, that's the fatal thing about Ukraine. It's it's the doubt about the ultimate location of Ukraine in the security architecture of of of the world. And as long as Putin still thinks there's a chance,
>> but
>> he can keep Ukraine ambiguous, he'll keep attacking. And so so so the one of the ways to get the war over is for Washington, London, Paris, but everywhere to declare again what used to be the policy, what used to be the policy, which is that Ukraine should join NATO. Now you don't hear that.
>> So you don't hear that anymore. [clears throat] Say tomorrow,
>> that that Ukraine should first of all be part of the NATO alliance. You know, Putin, you what you know what how Putin will respond to that. Yeah. Putin will respond to that by doing a deal because at the moment he has no reason to think that we're serious and he will keep wanting to push Ukraine. People keep wanting to uh to carve Ukraine up until he hears that it's it's game over and that there's a long-term strategic objective by the West to have Ukraine as part of.
Why would he take it? Used to be >> why would he take that declaration seriously? Because what you're really saying is that Starmer and Burnham essentially haven't been as aggressive or strong or as supportive as they ought to have been. I think it's we I think we've made a mistake in not being clear about the final status of of Ukraine because I don't think that Putin will desist until he thinks it's really game over. And and you know, he, so the logic, the logic, the logic from his point of view is, you know, he's in trouble, right? I mean, he's obviously in, but he's he's if he did a deal now, I think he could just about explain it to his people. He could say, well, the special military operation has succeeded. We we've got rid of all the Nazis in, not that there were any Nazis, but we got rid of the Nazis in.
That was his accusation about the Ukrainian leaders. But we should do several other things, by the way, to to support Ukraine. We could do much more with the shadow fleet, and we we don't do enough of that in in the in the English Channel. We could do much more to to fund Ukraine. There's about 15, 15 billion uh dollars worth of Putin's assets just in London.
>> But before you go on to that, it's a very interesting proposition because I haven't heard this before that you're saying.
>> We used to hear it about three and a half years ago.
>> When when you were in office. But
>> one of the things that's changed since three and a half years ago is Donald Trump.
>> Are you saying that Trump as well has been weak, fallen down on the job, failed to press home the advantage that he should have had?
>> I mean, I make no secret of of it. I think that it would be a very powerful thing. I've said this to President Trump. It'd be a very powerful thing if the United States declared that it was a strategic objective of the United States for Ukraine to be a free, sovereign, and independent country. Number one, you don't hear that much from Washington, right? And number two, that Ukraine should be part of NATO. That used to be.
What did he say to you when you said that?
>> Well, I mean, he's he's he's he's very good at listening. He's very [snorts] good at listening. Um, that that used to be the that used to be the policy and it's not the policy. I think it's a mistake and it's it's one I think it's one of the reasons this thing has dragged on and is at risk of dragging on even further. Get it clear. What what have we got to lose? You couldn't say Putin's going to escalate. I mean, you know, how much more escalation can he do? You know, he's bombing, he's bombing apartment blocks. Uh, he's he's he's he's trying to recruit as many people as he can. He's in a desperate hole. Escalation isn't the problem. What what needs to happen is we need to flip the switch in his mind and convince him that geostrategically it's game over. He's tried. He can he's got to defend it now to his people, but he's got to end it.
Do you think that there is any possibility that Andy Burnham will stand up sometime this week or in his first foreign policy speech and say, "You know what? I like what Starmer has done, and he's being dignified on the international stage, but he hasn't done the thing that needs to be done, which is to say to Vladimir Putin, >> we are going back to the Boris Johnson position.
>> It used to be the Starmer position. It used to be the Starmer, but but it's sort of evaporated from the.
>> Do you think there's any possibility that Andy Burnham will take up that position now?
>> Well, I hope he will. I look, honestly, I don't know. I mean, you you know, Trevor, you probably know much more about Andy, Andy's sort of uh foreign policy positions than I do, and he looks at you fond of. I don't know. I don't.
[An air of mystery has descended on the on the studio at that question.]
>> But look, I think I think that, you know, he's an intelligent guy. Uh, I've had, you know, not very extensive, but basically warm relationship uh with him in in the past. I can't believe he's going to, you know, look at I don't can't believe he's going to jettison UK policy. I'm sure he'll want to do the right thing on Ukraine.
Let me ask you this. You spent a lot of time with Ukrainians. Uh, Zelensky clearly trusts you, and I think you're still in contact. Do you think he has felt betrayed by the West, and particularly by the Americans?
>> No, I don't think that. I I don't think that at all. I think that he's occasionally very frustrated by some of the things that I've I've mentioned. The failure to sort out the shadow fleet, the failure to to pony up the the frozen assets, the the failure to declare the long-term objective. Um, but look, you you talk to, I'm sure you know, I know you do. You talk to those Ukrainian generals. They would not survive. Uh, they couldn't keep going uh for an hour uh in their fighting in the Donbas without American technical support, American intelligence. It's fantastically important and with a few hiccups, it has kept going throughout the Trump uh period. And, you know, I think that paradoxically, you know, Trump could be the guy really to put the hard word on Putin would
>> and get this thing done.
>> I you.
>> And there's no doubt that when it comes to foreign policy initiatives, this is a guy who's willing to do some some pretty tough things, right? Nobody thought he's the first American president to use violence against Iran, right? Uh, you know, whatever you think about the about his logic and and how that's worked out, you know, he he is I think he is the guy. I and I've said this to him and I said this repeated. I think paradoxically, although I think that his instincts on on Ukraine haven't always, his language about Ukraine hasn't always been, you know,
>> put it mildly, on you know, totally on all fours with with what I think. I think he could he really could fix it, and that's what I've always told him.
Um, there's some division in the Zelensky administration at the moment. Do you understand the justification for the sacking of uh what we're told is a popular defense minister?
>> No. And I I can't speak for the Zelensky. And I mean, you're you're you're kind to say I'm still sort of um uh um, you know, in the loop with those guys, but uh I can't speak for I can't speak for [clears throat] them. I think I think I think I think that might that might give the sense that there's disunity and make the West, Europe, and also Washington a bit less keen to do what you want them to do. Look, I think the it's it's perfectly possible that the um the removal of the defense minister is is not is nothing to do with so-called corruption or any of those alg, and it's purely a dispute with uh the head of the armed forces, the head of the army, who's in a very difficult position, and and it's just one of those things that uh that happens. I think the protests, you could argue that the protests you're seeing in Ukraine are a sign that Ukraine is a functioning, open, a pluralist democracy, right? And and and and a sign of the difference between Ukraine and and and Russia. So look, you know, but of course, we we've had controversial decisions like this.
>> But there are people who say that this is actually a signal both of Zelensky's weakness and also potentially his authoritarianism.
>> Well, I I I know people say that, but uh Ukraine is fundamentally different from Russia. In in Ukraine, when they have elections, people genuinely don't know what the outcome of that election is going to be. In Russia, they know that Putin is going to win. Uh in in Ukraine, they don't uh shoot journalists. They don't send their opponents to to goolags. They don't poison them. Uh in in Russia, they do. Uh they jail thousands and thousands of of people. There is a that's what that's why it's so important for us to to make the point to Putin about where Ukraine is going. It's about direction, and and we're we're making a mistake >> not to say it.
Let's um let's talk about another part of your legacy, Brexit. It's 10 years since the referendum. The Bank of England says that a conservative estimate uh shows that the United Kingdom economy is now 6% smaller than it would have been without Brexit. And that's e, let me finish, that would be easily enough to hand our friends in Ukraine several hundred million dollar worth of support and also meet our defense commitment.
>> Are you are you ready to admit that this was a mistake?
>> No, not at all. I think that um I if if the UK economy might have grown u more, uh then would have been by far the fastest growing economy in in Europe. It would have been quite. And and so I so I I don't think that that is true. I think what has damaged the UK economy as I think the Bank of England uh has repeatedly confirmed uh since 2024, uh when actually the cons the outgoing Conservative government had uh got inflation down, got interest rates down, got taxation down as much as we could. The problem, the problem is that you've had a Labour government uh that has been absolutely remorseless.
>> Oh no.
>> They're saying this is over the over the 10-year period.
>> Yeah. But the the if you look at the real.
>> All the bad stuff happened since 2024.
>> When when did people really start fleeing this country? When did you start to see the wealth creators leaving this country? Huge numbers.
>> No, that's it's because of.
>> That's deflection. Over the 10 years, there was that we didn't do any we didn't uh improve our productivity.
>> In that case, in that case.
>> We didn't shrink the debt. Actually, some of that is on your watch.
>> Yeah, sorry, on on my watch. Let's let's not let's not forget that for for much of that 10 years, we didn't actually deliver Brexit at all, okay? Uh, so, uh, what what happened then uh shortly after we legally came out of the of the European Union and took back control of of our of our of our economy and our laws. Uh, we had COVID. And actually, as I never tire of saying, but I will repeat because I probably haven't told you, Trevor. Uh, what actually happened was that thanks to Brexit, during that fateful uh year of uh 2021, when we had the vaccine rollout and we were trying to come out of the COVID restrictions, which was catastrophic for the economy. Talk about the the economy, that was the biggest problem. Uh, you, how could you have any economic growth when you were closing the whole economy because of a a disease, right? And it was it was because we had the freedom. Wait, let me just let me just finish this point because we because we had the freedom to roll out AstraZeneca and Moderna and Pfizer and all these vaccines, uh, literally weeks if not months faster than our closest uh competitors. The result was we had vaccinated 45% of the UK. I'm going to repeat this because you you asked, 45% 45% of the UK population and 100% of the over 70s by March 2021. I'm happy to. And the result was thanks to Brexit.
You've been blaming Brexit.
>> I am happy to let you make the case, but I've asked you. Repeat it. I've asked you about the economy and the point I'm making.
>> I'm talking about the economy. We came out of COVID restrictions so fast. We had the fastest economic rebound in Europe, right? Okay. And that was thanks to Brexit.
>> And we would have grown faster without Brexit.
>> No, not we. No, because we would have been we'd been we would have been unable to vaccinate our population as fast as we did. Right. Okay. And and so we would have we would have been stuck behind with the rest as those other. Don't forget, most other European countries, including France, including Germany, did not come out of COVID restrictions for nine months after we did, right? Now that's a that's a big big economic disadvantage for them, a big Brexit advantage for us. And we could spend a great deal of time discussing where why that is, but we I want to move on.
>> We we could, but I I don't I don't think we'd come to any different a separate conclusion because that is that is the answer.
>> The problem, the problem with, you know, Brexit, obviously, I love Brexit. Just Brexit. What uh, you're never going to, but I'm not going to shift your opinion.
>> What I what I what I do think about it is.
>> It's Brexit is a tool, right? And you either use it or you don't.
>> And you think we failed to use it properly.
>> I I think that you need I think that it's starting to happen and I think even Labour is actually interested in doing things differently. [snorts] If you look at their approach to AI, it's different from the the European approach on biosciences. We're now starting to diverge in spite of of some of the difficulties that they're making. Okay.
>> I think I think give it time. That the problem, the UK economy has got far far bigger than any impediment that Brexit may or may not have provided. The problem UK government got is the massive overt taxation, overregulation of the Labour government which brought back which brought back 1970s 1970s style controls on uh on far people. This is a huge economic rigidity, massively overt.
I get far enough criticism from your your colleagues of Labour. I I want to hear about I want to hear about your policy. I think you're very balanced generally and I I read your column in The Times, which is excellent. Thank you. You're a model, you're a model of. And and honestly, if you look, if you look at the, you look at the damage being done.
>> We move on to this economy. Could we move on to another Labour policies and Brexit is actually a in the right hands? Could we move on to another part of the Johnson legacy of which they will no doubt write poems in in centuries to come? Migration. Um,
>> yes.
>> Whoever turns out to be uh Andy Burnham's home secretary is going to have to deal with the consequences, which are both practical and political, of decisions that you took to open the doors to what effectively what in the end became a wave of net migration of knocking on a million. What people now call what people now call the Boris wave. And the consequence has been a surge. Let me finish, let me finish the question so you can answer the question. Nonsense. Um, it's nonsense. This is all. It has been a surge for Nigel Farage. Was that a mistake?
>> They were so first of all, the um Reform party. I didn't can't remember whether they were even called that. Yeah, I think they were. They were.
>> Yeah, they were on about 0% when I was Prime Minister. Right, okay. Even when I resigned. Yeah, but they were on zero.
>> We hadn't had the Boris wave yet when you were Prime Minister.
>> Actually, we had the decisions, but we hadn't had the people arriving.
>> Sorry, that that's nonsense. But then in that case, it was nothing to do with me because because.
>> The decision you took, which the decision I took.
>> Which was to allow uh people to bring dependencies, dependent, and so on. The consequence, what happened in '22, '23, '24, things happened. First of all, we had Brexit, we had COVID, right? Right. All right. So, so, so, so, so, so, what happened? First of all, uh, was that migration fell to its lowest level for 40 years. Okay. My first full year as Prime Minister, 2020, we had net migration.
>> And nobody was moving anywhere because it was COVID.
>> Correct. Was the lowest for 40 years, if not, I think low.
>> That wasn't policy. That was that was a pandemic.
>> And and so what happened the following year was we had an increase. What we then had was the ability because of Brexit to reduce that to zero if we want. And because thanks to what we did. You ask the decision you say talk about the decisions I took. The most important decision I took and the most difficult to deliver in the House of Commons, most of whose members voted against leaving the EU. Most important thing was to go for a so-called hard Brexit. You remember this?
>> I do. And a hard Brexit meant that we came out of the single market. Uh, we came out of the customs union, and we were no longer party to EU arrangements on movement of people. And that was not something that uh was easy because it was something that a lot of people thought would be very, very uh tricky for the economy. But it was essential to deliver Brexit. It's a result of that control that we in this country, Labour government, any government, can now decide who comes in.
>> And it was a result, and they, and not only that, it was a result.
>> And not only that, but we climbed to net migration of over 900,000 people.
>> As I've tried to explain to you, we had we had very, very low migration one year. We then had more. And we then then after after I had.
>> We didn't have net migration of 900,000 people before COVID. This was a consequence of your decision. Now, you don't have to be embarrassed about it. Actually, actually, what happened, you talk to Kevin Foster, the former immigration minister. We took steps to change those rules, so as to to make it tougher for people to to get in. But I I just remind you what actually was happening at the time. People were saying, and nice, well-meaning liberal people were saying, uh, Brexit is going to turn us into a leper colony, and people are going to flee uh the UK. And I think that, and I actually think that that sort of rhetoric was taken seriously by Whitehall. You have a lot of good, nice Remain civil servants. And I think that they they thought that we we did need to get people in to do social care and to do things like that. But as soon as we realized the numbers, we used our powers, our legal powers to turn it off.
>> And and if I had a complaint, it was it was after I'd left office that wasn't done fast enough. Now.
>> Now you've also got to ask yourself.
>> Um, when you when you look at at immigration into this country, and you know, I'm I'm in favor of control, right? I'm not actually anti-immigrant. I'm, you know, I I think I'm lucky that, you know, my my own family was allowed to immigrate to this country or parts of my family years ago.
>> Um, but I think, you know, what people want to see is full legal democratic accountability.
>> And that's what they have now. That is what they have now got. And and they didn't. And so when when when Andy Burnham says he wants to go closer to the.
>> European Union or whatever, whatever sort of income, whatever he's saying, that when he says he wants to uh have a new relationship or a reset, what they want is a return to free movement. They and they'll start with students and and all that nonsense, and then it'll become absolutely unstoppable. And so so so and what the Remainers or the Rejoiners, I know the Rejoin. No, I don't want to relitigate the past. I want to talk I want to talk about things for which you were responsible.
>> Look, sadly, that's all in the past.
>> No, well, no, we are living with the consequences of the past. You're a historian, you know this, you know how this works. The point I really just want to ask is, is this a, it's a kind of a serious, it is a serious point, really. Um, you do have a view about immigration. You have said in the past, you think uh broadly speaking, it's a good thing. It's got to be controlled. There's got to be controlled.
>> So I used to run this city right for for eight years, eight glorious years.
>> I know that. I know. Let me ask you a question. In that period.
>> Let me ask you a question before you.
>> The statistic I used to cite was that 40% of our population was born abroad. Right. And in that respect, London is identical. So all these raving in America about civilizational erasure, you know, you know, Britain's coming, going down the tubes. Are we talking about JD Vance, whoever, you know, but all bollocks. Uh, if if I, the the population of New York that was born abroad is virtually identical. Uh, I think in America, about 30% of people are either first or 30% of the population of America is 30 is is first or second generation immigrant. And we have to listen to this stuff about civilization. [laughter]
>> I I have to break.
>> I simply want I think there are problems where I am trying to get to ask you a question. The question I want to ask you is this.
>> No, no, don't tell me. Let answer this question.
>> Are you at all embarrassed by the way that Reform and others are using the term Boris wave because it is true that net migration for better or worse has been higher uh as a consequence of decisions you told [clears throat] than at any time in our history?
>> I think it would be abs I just pointed out that because of Brexit, we have the power to control migration and if necessary to have zero migration. And not only to have zero, but we have the power under Brexit. Uh under under Brexit, which I secured, and which those people didn't, they didn't even exist. They I didn't sing. They did not have a single MP, those people, right? They didn't do a bean. They did not do a bean to get Brexit through the House, not a bean. And they swank around complaining, claiming to have been responsible for it. They did did they did nothing to deliver Brexit, uh, the hard Brexit through the House of Commons, which enables us, enables this country, not only to have as few people as we want overall, but also you under our laws to decide who [snorts] comes from where. Now the problem with with the problem with migration is.
I need to move you on because at the moment they're going to throw they're going to throw us out of the studio.
>> That's okay. I'm just going to finish this point. Uh, the the problem, the problem, I as I as I told you, Trevor, I'm I'm a generous-minded sort of guy. I'm not going to discriminate against people because of where they come from. What I do think they need to do is be British. And you've written, I've seen, I've read, I've read good pieces by you on this, and and you're right. I think that over decades, we've been far too limp-wristed in insisting that people conform to our ideals, norms of our.
>> Give an example of what you.
>> Well, I think things like, I think a lot of the stuff that people have have been hearing about, I think a lot of the, you know, [sighs and gasps] [snorts] relations between the sexes, um, treatment of women, yeah, the grooming gangs, all this sort of, you know, these we we haven't been tough enough in insisting on basic British norms of behavior. And I think if you come to this country, and I used to have these wonderful ceremonies in in City Hall, people would cry, uh, from all over the, you know, backgrounds, all over the world. They would they would they would be photographed with the the Her Majesty, Her Late Majesty the Queen, and it was the most magical moment in their lives. And they swore, and they passed quite a difficult test about British culture.
>> The UK, we but we we need to we need to be tough on that. And I think, and I think that a lot of political correctness has prevented that.
What would you do with people who you think, people use the word integration, let's use that for the sake of convenience here, who are not playing by the rules, who are not doing what you've just talked about? What would you do with them?
>> I would shame them. I would I would I would I would make it I would make it clear that their behavior. So, look, you know.
>> Would you expel them from the country?
>> Well, that that's hard to do if they have legal rights to uh to live here. But I think it is totally unacceptable that you should have populations of of women uh who don't speak English.
>> That's absolutely appalling.
>> And you know, okay, things have been actually in in some ways, things uh have been improving. I think.
>> Okay.
>> In terms of.
>> Sorry, cultural norms. I I and I, you know, here I'm, you know, I'm when my Turkish when my Turkish great-grandfather came to Wimbledon, uh, you know, he was assassinated shortly thereafter, but never mind. Uh, when he came to Wimbledon, uh, he decided to that his progeny should be British. He wasn't assassinated in this country. Uh, and and whatever you may, whatever complaints you may you may make about about my family, we've made a pretty good effort to to speak English.
Much as I'd love to go through the family history, I want I want to talk to you about a couple of other things which, to be honest, only you could really talk talk to us about. Um, there's going to be a new prime minister uh on Monday. Says he wants to do things differently. Um, he says that politics hasn't served the people, and some of the language he's using echoes your leveling up agenda. What do you think that the first thing he needs to do is?
>> Well, look, I say wish him well as a new prime minister. I think we know, we've had quite a lot now, and it's just like the population is doomscrolling through prime ministers.
>> We've had we've had 10 prime ministers.
>> Yeah. Uh, I think we.
>> In the last since.
>> But he has he hasn't he hasn't got much time. I would say, and he needs to get on and he needs to give investors in this country a sense of hope about it. And that means he needs to find reasons to buy British, buy Britain, get stuck in. And he needs to stop the hemorrhage of talent. And he needs to think about what what he's doing on tax. And Labour needs to get a grip on spending. And the problem they've got is is even even though they have a huge majority, they're unable to deliver any real change, reform of the of the public spending package because of of the mindset of Labour backbenchers. They need to they need in order to keep the markets at bay, in order to keep the bond markets at bay, they keep having to talk about raising taxes because that reassures them about reassures the markets about uh debt and so on. And that's a massively negative signal to to investors. And by the way, a nightmare for everybody who keeps having to pay, we keep having to pay more tax. So so so they are in a huge mess, Labour.
>> So get and they've made a huge mess, as I was as I was saying.
>> So get control of public finance. He needs to he needs to fix that. I think he needs to be very he needs to show some leadership on on something like on Ukraine. One one of the problems we've got now is that because of the sort of lawyerly approach, I love lawyers, but the very, very uh left-wing legalistic approach of Starmer, the former the Attorney General, he's still there, uh, and and Starmer is that we're seen now as very weak. Things like Chaos, disastrous, you know, there was no real legal justification uh for for what they did. Um, this this stuff at Gibraltar, pathetic. You don't need to do that. Um, so you look, I do worry, I do worry about the way we're now thought of. And and so I, if I were Andy Burnham, I would I would really try to show that there was it was a new, it wasn't just is it, this was no longer the rule of Islington lawyers. It's no longer the rule of Islington lawyers, but a, you know, if he wants, if he wants to speak for the whole country again, then then he needs to to think what where the instincts of of those people are. And they are not, they are patriotic. They do not want to see Britain weak.
I want to ask you a couple of things if you like, as an elder statesman, um, in politics. You and your family now live with extensive security.
>> Person. We're speaking in the shadow of the the murder of Anne Widdecombe.
>> You say statesman normally, and I'm not against the phrase statesman.
>> Let's not quibble about language. Um, we could we could spend, we've already spent too long on this. Um, we're speaking in the shadow of the murder of Anne Widdecombe. Uh, Nigel Farage reports hundreds of death threats. Do you think that there's a danger that public office is now so dangerous that it rules out many people who would otherwise be outstanding public servants, but who don't want to put their families or themselves at risk?
>> I really hope that isn't true. I I think that it probably isn't true because I think that the risks, you know, although they they obviously exist, remain very, very, very low. Um, what I think is true is that probably in my lifetime, in my political sort of career, uh, it's it has become more combative, right? You know, I think people are more verbally aggressive with each other than. Don't you feel? I feel it's it's it's got a bit coarser, a bit rougher, and that might put people off, and they might not want their, you know, they might not want their kids shouted at, that sort of thing, right? And so what I think about all this is that actually, it's probably expensive and pointless to try and raise everybody's level of security. But what we could do is dial down the general level of of invective and and sort of, you know.
>> Am I on to something? I I just I just could be. I tell you who I thought. I thought, you know, I think she's been she's been an appalling Chancellor,
>> but I thought Rachel Reeves was very good at that petrol station when she stood up to someone. Maybe you disagree.
>> And somebody shouted at her, and she was, I thought she was. And I think, and I think that, you know, you've got [clears throat] to you've got to take it in your stride. But there is another angle. There's another angle to this uh which I've got to put to you, really. Some people would say that you bear some responsibility for the coarsening of politics, or yes. Or the or the decline in the reputation of of politics.
>> I never abused anybody. What What do you mean?
>> Let me finish my I'm my question.
>> Let me finish my question before you ask yourself the question. Parties at Number 10, suspicious dealings over PPE, failure to clamp down on disrep. Some people would say a lot of this is Johnson bollocks.
>> No, I don't believe anybody would say that in their right mind. Uh, so so u.
>> Oh, you know what I think about.
>> Bring you pages and pages of it.
>> Yeah, because because you know, people write any old nonsense. Uh, but you know what I think about the so-called Partygate nonsense? It was nonsense. Uh, as for PPE, I mean, actually, I I think I'm right in saying that the the COVID inquiry, Dame Heather had just produced a finding. I mean, I may might be wrong, saying saying that there was no cronyism or or um, whatever.
>> What she said she could not find any evidence of it.
>> Well, well, I don't think nor could I. And but she also said, she also said, by the way, there shouldn't have been a VIP lane. I don't want to get into the detail, but my point is.
>> But are you sorry, I'm just asking, responsibility for any of that?
>> No, I but I think I'm a very mild-mannered guy and I don't I don't think that I'm.
>> Um.
>> You know, you know, I I don't I think generally speaking.
>> I think that um what happens in these situations is that the the the the left blame the right and the right blame the left and everyone. If if the right wingers weren't so awful, then none of this would happen. The left and the right said, "Well, if the left wingers weren't so nasty, uh, then." And you know, everybody just needs to everybody just needs to take a chill pill. I think.
>> I just want to say I remember I remember I remember when I remember when things were.
>> I mean, you know, if you what I would say.
>> Is that.
>> And I think this this would be fair. I think that referendums because of, and particularly a referendum on on an issue of of identity, as it turned out to be, which was the Brexit referendum. I think that did cause much more rancor than than people thought it would. And that was a sad thing.
>> Do you feel sorry about that?
>> Well, I didn't call the referendum. I mean, I took part, but yeah, I think I do feel I do feel sorry about it. And I've said, I I said on some BBC show, I don't know, they used it. Uh, I I do think I think it was regrettable that it became so. I think it was because the issues were so sort of abstruse and the constitutional issues, uh, that sometimes people found it easier just to get involved in the personal argument. But we got, we we will, you know, we're a very.
>> George Orwell was right. We're a very. We're a very gentle. We're a very gentle.
I'm going to edit the next 20 seconds, which is we should have been talking for 20, 20 minutes or thereabouts. We're now at 40 minutes. So I need to move you as much fun as this is, I need to move you on a bit.
>> I think I think any remaining viewers will be [laughter] still be there. I want to get I want to keep asking about this. Listen, the Conservative Party is not contesting, um, unusually, a by-election, the one in Clacton in August. If you agree with that decision, who do you actually want to win? Farage or Binface?
>> I I think it would be um I think it would be a very bad idea for me to um uh blight any candidate with my support. I I think that, you know, I obviously I don't agree with what Reform is saying about a lot of things. I think the trouble is that they're they're I don't see their program for the country. I don't see their program for the economy. I don't see the need for this by-election, to be perfectly honest.
So you wouldn't [laughter] be an honest broker, by the way, between the Conservative Party and Reform?
>> I think I think that it's been a I think it's been a.
>> A very peculiar by-election, and it shouldn't be happening. And you know, I thought I thought Binface had rather a good point when he said that, you know, all I say is this. I thought Binface had a a decent point. The count. Binface, uh, when he said that, uh, a vote for him, uh, would actually preclude a second, uh, the expense of a second by-election. So, you know, I just put it out there.
May That's a reasonable quick question on this. Um, there are some people in the Conservative party who think that there should be a deal between the Tories and and Reform, whether or not, and actually they there might be a broker who's credible with both parties who could do that.
>> You know, I I'm I'm I'm.
>> No deal would be better than a bad deal. Well, no, no uh Conservative party, no Conservative uh leader can possibly uh engage in sort of in talks with about about a deal because.
>> You know, you're not going to do any good for your own party. You're not you're not going to boost Tory chances by uh going around talking about some sort of uh surgical cosmetic enhancement of your own of your own party by by by, you know, some creating some Franken party of the right. That is not going to work. That is not going to work. And actually, if you look at what's happening, Keir Starmer is coming back very, very strongly, coming through very strongly now. She's, I think she's the only uh party leader to have net approval ratings, positive approval ratings.
>> Andy Burnham now is, but I get the point.
>> Well, maybe. Well, does she? Does he? I'm not. So, I think she.
>> Well, I think I think maybe she's the only one that's positive, but.
>> And and that's an amazing thing because that that is a measure that leads the um the numbers for the for the parties over. So, watch this.
We must finish now, or else they are going to they are going to sack me.
>> Have we really done 40 minutes?
>> More than that.
>> You can't broadcast that. What are you going to do?
>> I don't know. We're going to take over the station. Listen, I I I actually your penultimate show.
>> No, I genuinely want to ask.
>> Your penultimate show. You could just demand that they broadcast you in full.
>> Yeah. Boris Johnson says, "Give the channel to Trevor Phillips." Um, I just want to ask you, this is personal in a way. Um,
>> why why are you going to America? What are you doing?
>> This This isn't I'm interviewing you for God's sake. Let me just let's just get to the end of this, then we can talk about me. Um, seven of the last 10 prime ministers have essentially been turfed out of office by all political.
>> By not all. I know the power thing, but not all of them have. Some have lost elections. Now, you and Starmer both led your parties to big victories, and then they got rid of you. It must be impossible not to feel at least a little bitter about that. So, what advice would you give to Keir Starmer to deal with that bitterness?
>> I give the same advice that that the Her Late Majesty the Queen gave me, uh, which was there's absolutely no point in bitterness ever about these things. And it's a very good piece of advice.
>> Is that what she said?
>> Really? Yes, she was. No, I I think I I think I've said that before. If.
>> I haven't heard it, but she said that to you after. I don't think I don't think I'm betraying any particular confidence, but she she she said that. Yeah, she did. Um, and I you can see why from the the monarch's point of view, that's the right thing for the country. You know, you you don't want politicians feuding endlessly with other politicians once they've they've left office. But it's also the right thing personally for your own spiritual health and and and growth, you know.
>> So that's a that's a that's a rather touching sentiment.
>> Well, I think she's totally right. I mean, I think you know, don't we all know it? I mean, if you if you know, you so I'm sure look, I think.
>> I did feel a bit sorry for Keir sometimes, and you know this, sometimes I couldn't quite understand why he was so unbelievably unpopular. I mean, I could see he was doing a lot of terrible things, but I couldn't, when I when I talked to him, I couldn't see personally, he didn't strike me as being a bad guy, really. I mean, you know, he's totally misguided. He's a hopeless lefty lawyer. He does lots of terrible things. Uh, he was, you know, human billiard and all the rest of it.
>> He he didn't he didn't say he didn't say he felt that way when they got rid of you.
>> No, that's well, that's true. But, you know.
>> But it was his job to get rid of me, you know, or his job to play. He he.
>> When we say so so you know.
>> When we say get rid of you, uh, last point, really. Um, when you stepped down as Prime Minister, uh, four years ago, I looked up what you said, and you said you were like one of those booster rockets that has fulfilled his function. I will now be gently re-entering the atmosphere and like Cincinnatus, I am returning to my plow. Now, these days, let me finish. These days, Elon Musk is reusing his rockets. And as you and I both know, Cincinnatus took his hand off the plow to come back, not once, but probably twice, as um, to lead the Republic. When are you going to come back?
>> No, >> honestly, Trevor, I think that uh I've had a very, very lucky time in in politics. So I I got a, in spite of uh what you know, you you may say and what people may think, I I got a huge amount done in just in in three years um as PM. I had a wonderful time as Mayor of London. Um, I even quite enjoyed being Foreign Secretary, that was, you know, I was mainly uh being sent abroad. Um, I I I think you can't step in as an as Heraclitus said, uh, you can't step in the same river twice. I think it was Heraclitus. I can't remember who it was. And it was it was And so I think that you, Keir Starmer, is doing very well. She really is. And she's got zap. She's got energy. Um, she's getting better and better. Um, people are people are waking up to this. And I think, >> you know, I got plenty. I mean, I've got I've got a lot of fish to fry.
And we'll have at least a couple of years of of Andy Burnham. Do you do you expect him to succeed?
>> I expect him to succeed. Keir Starmer, yes. That seems [laughter] to do well.
>> That seems almost impossible to stop. That's as far as I'll go.
Boris Johnson, thank you very much.