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Europe Evening 7 PM 9 PM Pierre de Villneau still with Ophélie Roc and with Sébastien Ligier, head of the political service of Valeurs Actuelles. I'm taking the two volumes of The Count of Monte Cristo and the biography of Jesus by Jean-Christophe Petitfils. That's what Nicolas Sarkozy told Le Figaro. Nicolas Sarkozy, who will be incarcerated tomorrow at La Santé prison. He saw Emmanuel Macron on Friday. Emmanuel Macron, who justified this meeting with Nicolas Sarkozy at the Élysée. Listen, the president was speaking at a press conference in Slovenia this afternoon. I have always made very clear public statements about the independence of the judiciary in the role that is mine, but it was normal that on a human level, I receive 20 of my predecessors in this context. There. Uh, what did you want to say, Sébastien Ligier, during the audio clip we just heard? No, I was quite pleasantly surprised by Emmanuel Macron's gesture because when you know a little about the past and the relations, in any case recent ones, between the president and his predecessor, it was far from a sure thing. Uh, these are two men who were very close at one point, at the beginning of Emmanuel Macron's first five-year term. I think Nicolas Sarkozy found something of himself in Emmanuel Macron, or in the promise, or in the promise of Macronism, and Emmanuel Macron found himself in the ambition and in the strength of Nicolas Sarkozy, and there were several political events that had distanced them. Emmanuel Macron's refusal to listen to Nicolas Sarkozy about his appointment of Élisabeth Borne in 2022. Nicolas Sarkozy had told him, "You are making a huge mistake, go to the right instead." At a time when Emmanuel Macron only had a strong relative majority, Nicolas Sarkozy had told him, "Extend your hand to the right, you will avoid problems, you will have your absolute majority." History proved him right. Uh, Nicolas Sarkozy was extremely harsh with Emmanuel Macron on the dissolution, which he considered to be a historic mistake. And there is obviously this last, this last controversy, uh, regarding the Élysée's participation, or at least complicity, in Nicolas Sarkozy losing his Legion of Honor after his conviction, where Emmanuel Macron had ensured that the Élysée no longer had to decide on the retention or not of a Legion of Honor. Nicolas Sarkozy had found this to be an extremely blatant lack of courage and not very flattering of Emmanuel Macron. So these two men had separated. So I find it quite good, ultimately, that as President of the Republic, Emmanuel Macron receives Nicolas Sarkozy. I think these two men share something in common that we simple French human beings cannot understand. We cannot understand what these men experience. In uh, Nicolas Sarkozy has these very beautiful phrases in "Le temps des tempêtes," he says, "One cannot be prepared for the solitude of power that crushes you when you arrive at the Élysée for the first time." Here, moreover, he is taking, or rather he is taking, The Count of Monte Cristo to prison, hoping he won't stay too long. But in any case, it should also be added that the Minister of Justice, Gérald Darmanin, said he would visit him in prison. To check if the security conditions were good. Yes. So, many unions say there's nothing to check, but on the other hand, I'm a bit more skeptical about what Sébastien Ligier just said. Sébastien, I don't actually think it's necessarily a big gesture or a good gesture that he made, not towards Nicolas Sarkozy, but he did it for himself. That is to say, at no point, indeed, did he remain silent, and it was a case where it was complicated for him to intervene and express a judgment when we talk about the conviction of a former president. But I don't see any empathy, if you will, in this way of receiving him on the eve of his imprisonment. I almost want to tell you, I think Nicolas Sarkozy perhaps had better things to do than spend an hour with Emmanuel Macron today, who did not support him. He doesn't refuse either. What will that change for him? He won't gain any image. The only one who will polish his image is ultimately Emmanuel Macron, who will be credited with a pseudo-humanitarian gesture. I have trouble, well, I have trouble seeing that as a gesture of compassion. I really had the feeling that it's, yes, it's a marketing act. I don't see the human behind it at all. Now, I don't know. Indeed, I agree a little with Sébastien on this particular relationship that exists between two presidents. I think a lot of things happen, having no doubt, like Sébastien, spent a lot of time at the Élysée and discussed a lot with presidential advisors, discussed a lot with presidents, had many meetings with their advisors. There is something quite special that happens at the Élysée. There is something extra, in fact. There is the place of power, the place of power, the place of power crushes you. I mean, Nicolas Sarkozy, when he entered the Élysée in 2007, had a great career, he had been a minister, he was a leading figure, he was Minister of the Interior, etc. And when he arrived at the Élysée for the first time, he realized he was alone, that there was no one above him, that ultimately there were only the French in this strange social group that remained above him. So it's something extremely complicated. Again, there was a rule for a very long time, which is that as a president, one does not attack another. Now, in recent years, we have seen that between François Hollande and Emmanuel Macron, between François Hollande and Nicolas Sarkozy, this somewhat universal and tacit rule had exploded. But I think it still exists. There is a bond that unites all these men because I think deep down, you have to be a little crazy, you have to be a little nuts to become President of the Republic. And I think Emmanuel Macron must have asked himself the question, looking at what happened to Nicolas Sarkozy, how would I react if it were me? If, after having been President of the Republic, I were sent to prison, how would I react? I'm not even sure he can put himself in Nicolas Sarkozy's shoes. I have the impression that Emmanuel Macron sees it very well. I'm willing to accept that places of power make one lonely, and that is undoubtedly an absolute certainty. But nothing prevents them, they have a team, an army of advisors. They can always do, I don't know, one gets the impression that Emmanuel Macron, he doesn't even like, if you will, the beginning of a beginning of any listening towards anyone. So it's true that that's where I don't find the character likeable. I don't find him empathetic. As much as I can have empathy for Nicolas Sarkozy, who seemed to have something profoundly human in his management, as for Emmanuel Macron, for me, he is a marble mask, in fact. Two appointments to remember tomorrow regarding Nicolas Sarkozy's incarceration at La Santé prison. First, Master Christophe Ingrain, who is one of his lawyers, will be Dimitri Pavlenko's guest tomorrow at 7:10 AM on Europe 1. And then, Sébastien, I believe there is this support march, this gathering of support, I believe it's at the initiative of Louis Sarkozy, is that right, for tomorrow morning? We'll need to find the location, but we'll find out. Several hundred people are expected, a march initiated by his son. So Nicolas Sarkozy will not attend this gathering, this absolutely civic gathering which should probably be quite depoliticized, even if I imagine that some allies, former political allies of Nicolas Sarkozy, will be present. And it's also a gesture that is sent to support him in this ordeal, which is especially an attack on his honor because, deep down, that's what it is. What is being touched upon behind this conviction and imprisonment is the honor of Nicolas Sarkozy as a man and obviously as President of the Republic. And this immediately raises the question of provisional execution and its, and its, and its irreparable nature. How do you compensate for honor? I'm not sure money interests him, frankly. So how do you compensate a man who has been attacked in his honor?