Transcription
Could I say my opinion? Yes. Can people say their opinion? Yes. Can people have an opinion about a Russian president? Yes. Do they have to whisper? No. There was once the beautiful book by Orlando Figes, The Whisperers. Yes. So, where the tenor was that one has a a public language, a private language and even in private certain things that I could not express publicly or privately because one knew whether the informant was in front of the Russian secret service, like after the Stasi, and then writes a report, that is not so widespread. One can say clearly what one thinks in a circle of friends, even if one does not know someone for a long time, so has known them for 10 minutes. We sit in such an echo chamber and in such a resonance chamber and always hear one person say something and always refer to the same one, but never look at the source. That is the problem, yes, what we have, I believe. In this respect, are the negotiations successful or not? Yes, I believe that it is good that they have spoken. Do the Russians want, that is also the question, do the Russians want a real end to the war? Yes, they want that too. Do they want a ceasefire price? [Music] Dear viewers, a warm welcome here to another conversation on my channel. Today I am pleased to introduce you to another highly interesting guest. And I would like to warmly welcome the entrepreneur and Russia expert Dr. Oliver Kempkinens. Hello Mr. Kempkinens, thank you for the invitation. Mr. Kempkins, I am very pleased to be here with you. We are here with you in Munich and we would like to talk today about your experience in Russia. Yes, worked for several years as a manager for Sberbank, for the largest bank in Russia. Um, but we would also like to talk about the current peace negotiations between Ukraine and Russia and, uh, also about the differences and similarities between Russians and Germans. But first, a few words about you, Mr. Kempkin, you have a very, um, exciting, uh, resume. You studied law here in Munich at the LMU, psychology at the Fernuniversität in Frankfurt an der Oder, and mediation at the Europa Universität in Frankfurt an der Oder, excuse me. And then you received your doctorate in sociology. Um, you were also active in teaching. You taught management and leadership courses at renowned universities such as Stanford University, the Hasso Plattner Institute at the University of St. or the University of Vienna. You were a visiting professor in Russia at the Skolkovo School of Management and the British School of Design. Um, and you are also entrepreneurially active or have been. Uh, you are self-employed today, have worked in the past at SAP, among other places, where you introduced Design Thinking for over 22,000 employees. You were responsible for over 500 projects for SAP and were also responsible for many other international companies in the USA, uh, uh, uh. Um, I cannot list them all here due to time constraints, but and this is perhaps the most exciting position, you were Managing Director in Russia in Moscow at Sberbank from 2019 to February 2022. At that time, you were the highest-ranking foreign manager in Russia. Um, and you have also published guest articles for the FAZ and the Berliner Zeitung. These were primarily about your Russia perspective. Uh, and I saw you on a podcast by Pirer, and recently you were a guest at HKCM with colleague Philip Hopf. That was in December last year, I believe. And yes, now we had to postpone our conversation by almost a week, 10 days, because Mr. Kempkens, you were in Russia. I was in Russia on May 9th for Victory Day. So, how was it, what were your experiences? Um, good. You have said a lot, told a lot of my life, who would have thought it would develop like this. One must also say, fairly. I lived in Russia for a total of 5 years, you build relationships, you build friendships, and you simply have to say that the time around May 9th is also a holiday in Russia. Yes. And I make sure to maintain these friendships and connections two or three times a year, and that has simply worked out quite well. So I didn't go there as a May 9th tourist, but I was simply there on May 9th. Yes, and otherwise it was actually as always. Yes, nobody likes to hear it. Yes, if you read Bild Zeitung, you always think Russia is on the verge of collapse. That is not the case. Moscow is still a very well-kept city. I believe 100 metro stations were opened in the last 8 years, right? One must not forget that. And so it was, of course, on May 9th. The city was well-kept. The mood was positive. As a foreigner, there were certainly phases where one or the other had reservations, but as a foreigner, you can move freely. There are no problems. I can speak German, I speak German in a taxi sometimes, even when I'm on the phone. There are no problems. There is rather an interest there. Yes, how the West or Germany sees Russia. Mhm. How did you get to Russia at all? You have no family ties to Russia. You were born in Essen in the Ruhr area. Are you not Russian German? So how did it happen that you came to Russia? Yes, that's right. I am not Russian German. Yes. And how did I get to Russia? Like all children in the Ruhr area, we had a British barracks and had good contact with the British in Essen. It was somehow that a teacher in, I was at a diocesan, at such a diocesan school complex, first law school, then grammar school, and a teacher at the time had said, here in the summer there is a great project in Volgograd, ne? So formerly Stalingrad, about German war graves care. It meant nothing to me as a 14-year-old student. Um, nevertheless, I found it quite interesting and later went with his son, with the teacher's son, not to Volgograd, but to Latvia. And, uh, I simply liked Latvia, it was fun, also the whole topic of, uh, international understanding over the graves, so overcoming historical historical connections or overcoming historical realities for the future. I liked that, and then I came to Russia later, and there I fell a little bit in love with Russia, as it is, you know, built relationships, maintained relationships with students, students, then students, of course, later students. Then I later took over a project from the Volksbund. Then it was also the case that at some point in the following years my my my my ex-wife was Russian. My daughter is a dual citizen, has a German and Russian passport and, um, then when I was teaching at Stanford, Skolkovo approached us at the time, looking for lecturers. My professor recommended me at the time. That's how I came back to Russia, and it simply fell into place. SAP also had a large Russia business at the time, a very trusting Russia business. I traveled with some customers, and then it simply developed as it had developed before in the USA, I must say. Mhm. Yes. And now you were at Sberbank, the largest Russian bank with over 300,000 employees, from 2019 until around February 24, 2022, actually longer. I was there longer too. I think at the end of the day it was until May or something, right? To elaborate on Sberbank. How did it come about that you joined Sberbank, the largest Russian bank with over 300,000 employees? Yes. 360,000 even now. Yes. How it happened, I was at the university, I think I had a very good reputation there because this whole topic of Design Thinking, which sounds very visual, but it's actually about a process understanding of how to promote user-centered innovation. In other words, that was relevant for all Russian companies. Russia is a very innovative market, one must also know that, especially in the retail sector. I had a visiting professorship, a teaching assignment at the university, and many of my students were corporate managers. So I knew many. I also wrote two books on the topic in Russia, and then Sberbank was one of the largest companies that felt committed to this whole topic of user-centered innovation, and then at some point the offer came, and then they said, you, I was in Germany, yes, and Sberbank said, could you imagine coming to us and doing this and that? And then I looked, okay, why not? Yes, I can do Russia anyway, and I moved to the USA at the time, so then I moved to Russia. I always found it nice. I always called it paid learning. Yes, you have the opportunity to immerse yourself in the culture, and it was a great experience. Did you perceive the difference between the USA and Russia there, because you were treated, I believe, in Palo Alto, the epicenter of the American startup scene, progressive to the nth degree? And then you come from the center of this, of liberalism, into the center of darkness, so to speak, from a Western perspective. Um, so how did you perceive that? Was it like that, or was it different? No, no, not at all. So, I think there are more commonalities and similarities than you think. Yes, of course, corporate support is very different in the USA. Yes, but it's also like that, an ecosystem has developed in Moscow. There were many VCs, and there were many PEs, many family offices that supported things, one must simply say. And purely in terms of the content of the work, it wasn't that different. Many of the students, both male and female, and also the corporate managers, were American-educated. Many studied in the USA, in London, lived in Switzerland before. Come from good families. Salaries in Russia are, are very, very good. Often more than comparable to Germany. So significantly better if you work for Russian state-driven or large companies, it's not comparable. Yes, indeed, really. Yes, as a developer, it doesn't make sense to work in Germany if you have the opportunity in Russia to work. Yes, or even as a normal middle manager. That doesn't make sense, not only because of purchasing power parity, but also simply because of how you work and what you absolutely get paid. Yes. So. And in that respect, it was actually a high similarity that one had, right? In Russia, you have to execute very strongly, just like in America, right? You are very strong, you are measured very strongly by results. That is a bit different in Germany, as I have always perceived it. In that respect, it didn't make much difference for me, apart from the language. Mhm. How do you perceive Russia now, compared to today, after 3 years of war? Has Russian society changed? Yes, the conflict has certainly contributed to the fact that the focus is placed on other sectors. I believe that is also true, I believe, if you look at the German press landscape. Certainly, some sectors are also under pressure, they have to reinvent themselves. At the same time, because Russian society has also experienced crises repeatedly in recent years. Yes, one must not forget the 90s, one must not forget 2008 either, the Georgian conflict. Um, then there was of course also the Covid phase, so in other words, Russian society is also a bit more resilient, I would say, than, and therefore it has also adapted quickly. Yes, in that respect, if you ask me what has changed, I would say not much, actually, right? If you look at the, if you look at the macroeconomic data now, unemployment is low. There is rather a problem that one has to recruit labor. There are still many, partly still Soviet legislations that need to be abolished. Russia certainly has a few issues from a bureaucratic point of view, yes, that every country has, but they are working on them. Certainly, there are some sectors, I think, such as a large gas company in Russia, which supplied a lot to the West, are under more pressure and have to reinvent themselves, but otherwise the domestic market is stable, and Russia is not cut off from the world, one must not forget that. Yes, you can get everything in Moscow, yes, what doesn't work. Mass payments. Okay, right. You always have to take enough cash with you when you cross over, unless you have a Russian account. I was there last year, I don't have an account in Russia. In the end, I ran out of cash, I had nothing left to exchange, it wasn't quite optimal. But would you say that these sanctions have failed? Have they arrived in any form? So how did you perceive that in Russia? Yes, that's a good question, which I believe has only started to be considered reasonably and differentially in Germany about half a year or three-quarters of a year ago. I believe the sanctions are, uh, functioning, but they are not as far-reaching as one imagined. Of course, the sanctions function, no question about it. So a BMW cannot import it from Germany. Yes, that means it doesn't mean you can't get it in a different way beforehand. Um, that's very clear. Um, but they are not as effective as I believe the field was sold. And I believe that is where Western policy, German policy, but also European policy simply has a huge credibility issue. Yes, because it was said, yes, with the sanctions we force Russia into the war, with an external trade of 56,000 km, that's North Korea, right? And, uh, Russia is also not as isolated as North Korea, right? So you see that at all the BRICS summits, that is a belief. Yes, so I believe one sits in one's own echo chamber, and, uh, even if you look at German commentary, there is a lot of wishful thinking and simply a lot of replication and little differentiation. Mhm. As an entrepreneur who grew up here in the West, how would you describe the entrepreneurial spirit in Russia? Uh, much more, much more opportunistic. Okay. Russians are simply In what respect are they opportunistic? They simply see an idea and then they don't have this, I don't know, with us it's often, and it's also with me. Yes, then I think then I rethink it sometimes. Yes, Russians have a very strong market orientation, if you look at the Russian retail market, for example, right? Clothes. Yes, when I talk to Russian friends, nobody says that Zara has left. Yes, so Zara, Mango and so on, as all the chains have left. Nobody says, we are waiting for them to come back. The shelves were simply filled. Yes, there were simply girls or couples who started a small brand. Russia, especially the young generation, functions very strongly through social media. Yes, a lot goes viral, and everyone in Russia is also involved in it and is ticking their things. On the one hand, one is somewhat consumeristic, but also more entrepreneurial, in that one says, I want to make something out of it, so that's also something I miss here a bit, and technologically it's incredibly innovative, not comparable. So more advanced than here in the USA, sometimes more than in the USA. Yes. Yes. The retail market, definitely. Okay. Can you elaborate on that? In what respect? Yes, Yandex, for example, the big competitor in the perception of Uber. Yes, Yandex has a so-called super app, where I can order flowers, where I can order from Amazon via the app, where I can deposit a Yandex Paycard, where I then get cashbacks, not kickbacks, but cashbacks. Yes, it's all more integrated. Yes, then there are robots that walk through the city in Moscow, so drive up to 25 km/h on the sidewalks. Yes, they are small boxes that drive and bring you a coffee. Yes, if I'm stuck in traffic, I can order a coffee, right? Okay. A lot is happening there. Totally, totally. And that is, of course, what, I mean, I was at a birthday party recently, the speaker broke down at 1 o'clock, I ordered a speaker online from Yandex, ordered it for 1600 rubles, almost 18 euros, and 30 minutes later the delivery arrived, right? A Chinese product. Was it great? No, but it was a birthday. Yes, it simply continued the birthday again. Yes. And I mean, how is it here? Yes. Mm. So, something is happening there, something is happening in Russia. Do you like this interview and the content on my channel? Then you can easily support me by giving me a subscription, sharing this conversation with all your friends and acquaintances, and leaving a comment for the algorithm. And now, have fun watching the rest of the interview. Um, how is it generally, how do you perceive it? Do people want to go back to Europe? So, do they want these relationships to be restored? Is there a desire, a need from the people on the ground, to live in friendship with Germans, with Italians, with French people again, or have they given up on that and said, we are now opening up to the global South, keyword BRICS, starting? So, how do you perceive that internally? First of all, I think we have to exclude the Italians. Yes, there are a lot of Italians there, and also many Italian products that have left, like Gucci or whatever, have been, let's say, substituted in their presence by smaller Italian manufactories. So I think especially in the high-end sector and then in the fashion sector, the Italians have found a huge, huge market. Russians are luxury-affine, premium-affine. Because 96% of people in Russia own apartments, hardly anyone pays rent, people generally have higher purchasing power, even if they have a small salary. Yes, the ancillary costs are lower, hardly any energy costs. Yes, so perhaps just to give you a perspective. Yes, when I lived there, mm, I also gave my German friends some information, they had a full-time nanny with my then-fiancée. Yes, she was with us full-time 24/7, she cost us 100 euros. Yes, paid full-time officially, she lived with us. Um, our cleaning lady, who came twice a week, cost 30 euros per day. And that, and that was not a bad salary. Yes. Um, now one can say, of course, what does the same do, if you calculate 20 or 30 euros, she has an apartment in Moscow. The ancillary costs, I estimate at 25 euros. The internet at 6, the mobile phone contract at 4 euros. Yes. Um, the taxi ride is somewhere between 2 and 20. If I pay 20, then I also get an S-Class, Maybach. Yes. If I pay 2, then I drive a small VW Polo or a Russian model. Yes, and with that you can live, and if you also have a lifestyle that is not necessarily always focused on Gucci and Louis Vuitton, then the lady can also go to a normal restaurant twice a week, yes, and pay for the soup to work. Yes, amazing. And such a big prejudice, which is also perpetuated here in the West towards Russia to this day, is the assumption that one cannot freely express one's opinion in Russia, that everything is suppressed. There is no public discourse, there is no public critical discourse about, for example, the Ukraine war, um, and so on, that one is not allowed to criticize Putin. Um, how did you perceive that? How pluralistic is society? Is it as it is perceived here in the West, or did you perhaps perceive it a bit more differentiated? Certainly, Russia is not Germany, yes, because we also have a different history. I believe one simply has to see it that way. And Russia spans 11 time zones or 10 time zones, I don't know, from east to west, and is a multi-ethnic state where there are also different, let's say, control mechanisms, and therefore the Russian state is certainly manageable in the film sector. Yes, one can see that, and it's okay. Um, can I, could I say my opinion publicly, did I say my opinion, yes, can people say their opinion? Yes, can people have an opinion about a Russian president? Yes, do they have to whisper? No. There was once the beautiful book by Orlando Figes, The Whisperers. Yes, so where the tenor was that one has a public language, a private language, and even in private certain things that I could not express publicly or privately because one knew whether the informant was in front of the Russian secret service, like after the Stasi, and then writes a report, that is not so widespread. One can say clearly what one thinks in a circle of friends, even if one does not know someone for a long time, so has known them for 10 minutes, and that is also the case. I believe what one should not do is stand on Red Square with a sign and demonstrate and protest. Yes, with a Ukrainian flag. With a Ukrainian flag, right? You have numerous cases of that. Certainly all difficult. Yes, that is certainly all difficult. But I also believe in the context of homeland front and so on, that this is not a Russia-specific development, but a conflict-specific development. But otherwise, one cannot say what one wants. Yes, of course I stand there. No, but Russia has a very, has many alternative scenes in Moscow, especially as the capital, many alternative scenes, from the rave scene, yes, to, I mean, the design scene, where I was partly involved, these are all liberal as we imagine them. Yes, they studied at the British School of Design, at Bard College, yes, which then had an outpost in Moscow or a cooperation with the British School of Design. There were international, um, professors, lecturers like me. One can actually do everything there. As I said, I don't have to stand on Red Square. Mhm. May I ask directly, what do you actually do here in Germany? Good question, my daughter is here and no, of course Germany is my home, no question about it, right? And I love Germany and I like Germany. And in the end, one also has to contribute, one must not always criticize everything, but one must also contribute to things changing, to things simply moving forward. Yes, and I see myself as a German, I believe everyone else also has a duty, right, and that has nothing to do with blood. But you prefer to live and work in Russia than in Germany. Do I hear that correctly? Ah, hard to say, right? So I live, so I would say, my life in Moscow was just as great as it was in Palo Alto and as it was in Munich. Yes, the big flaw, the big disadvantage was simply that my daughter is here. Yes. And my daughter is the most important thing because in the end, if we get old, then my daughter will probably stand at the deathbed, my best friends will perhaps have passed away, the daughter will stand there. Yes, and therefore, even if I am separated now, that is the most important thing I have, and I want to uphold that and show it to her as a symbol. Mhm. At this point, we could already conclude the interview. It would be a nice closing sentence, but that should not be the case, of course, because we still have many exciting topics, and I would also like to discuss your time at Sberbank with you. Um, because Sberbank is 50 or 51% owned by the Russian state, it is subordinate to the Russian Ministry of Finance, so it is a state bank, if you will. Um, how did you perceive this time there? How strong is the political influence there? Do you notice it in the operational, in the day-to-day business, or does it get lost? So I always say, even if nobody likes to hear it, but that time was certainly the best time I spent in a professional context besides my self-employment. Uh, why? I have never seen such smart leadership as at Sberbank. Sberbank is a Russian state-owned company. Yes, it belonged to the Ministry of Finance. When I started, it still belonged to the Central Bank, then it was reallocated. I can't even say now, I think it was for tax reasons too, and the CEO is German Gref. Yes, someone who is also of German origin, and, uh, German Gref or Sberbank was one of, and nobody knows this, one of the most profitable banks in the world. I believe last year they made a profit of 22 billion US dollars. Yes, a lot comes from the domestic market, one must simply know that. Sberbank is not just a bank, but actually a software company with a banking license. Our CEO, our then CEO, said, uh, Sberbank owns something like the Russian Amazon, uh, the Russian Uber, what else, uh, the Russian Doc Morris, it was all integrated into this bank, and the idea was always to accompany the customer completely in their everyday life, and in the background, of course, to know a lot about the customer and to be able to accompany them ideally, but nevertheless, Sberbank always had a very ethical understanding, and that came primarily from the CEO German Gref, yes, who was also, I believe, Deputy Minister of Economy of Russia in his younger years, a really smart guy, I believe also of German origin, has German roots, grandfather, probably towards Baden-Württemberg, very smart, well-educated, very interested. I always know his thing, when I was there at the time, his thing was Ray Dalio. Yes, so he had Radical Truth as one of the company values. We were also, for example, as employees, there were two squads, Performance and, uh, and alone with Corporate Culture, and, uh, we were always tracked through 360° feedback throughout the year. So it wasn't just at the end when someone was asked, but always systemically there was a workflow element that was sent out, where employees had to rate you along this value. After meetings, after project completions, it was ultra-modern. And what I actually wanted to say is that Sberbank was the purchaser of most executive training at Imperial College London and at Stanford University. So every year hundreds or also the Hasso Plattner Institute, I'm not the biggest, but it was also one of the trainers, but every year hundreds of Sberbank managers flew to the USA, to England, to Switzerland, and received further training there. Yes, and I believe at Sberbank there were 12 days of further training for management for every manager per year. Every manager had to be able to code Python. Everyone. Yes. And now one can say, yes, is that efficient, is it not efficient? That's not the point at all. It's about cultural orientation, and, uh, Sberbank was incredibly innovative in everything they did. Incredibly modern. Yes, of course, it was sometimes Russian, right? So, top-down. Sometimes there were decision-making processes that were not entirely clear. There were informal decision-making structures, as there are in family-run businesses where there is little change. That's just how it is, no question. But that wasn't different in the USA, by the way. M Did you also, let's say, what is also often claimed by Western, by European side, that Russia is very corrupt? Did you experience this corruption there? No, and certainly, so that can happen if you are in export or import, but at Sberbank it was highly compliant, yes, everything was mapped out systemically, everything was secured with digital tokens on blockchains, especially regarding signatures. There were always large compliance issues, and the CEO had an issue that he always said, for him, compliance is the most important thing, and by the way, the current CEO is probably Alexander Vedyakhin, or CCO Alexander Vedyakhin comes from the area of Credit Risk Governance Compliance, so no, I cannot say that. Absolutely not. And how do you explain that a state-owned company, Sberbank in this case, works so efficiently? Because if we look at Germany now, Deutsche Bahn, which is de facto also a state-owned company, is the opposite of efficient. Um, so I explain it to myself that it works so well in Russia and not with us. Education. Education. Yes, it sounds boring now, and nobody wants to hear it, but I think it's a systemic problem. Yes, I mean, they are simply top-educated, and if you look at the top positions of Gazprom under Alexei Miller, for example, yes, if you look at the team below them, they are top-educated, so first of all, in the oil and gas sector, they are absolute experts in their scientific field, and the commercial people, they all studied at Harvard, they all come from Harvard, Warden. Of course, they are simply top-educated. Yes, that is probably the big difference, the big disadvantage of the industry. Yes, certainly, we have all great universities, that's not the point at all. Yes, but in Russia, Russia is the market that spends the most money on further training worldwide. Russians simply have an intrinsic need, and that probably comes from the past, from the 90s, to be better or to leave behind something better than what was in the past. And we don't have that drive at all. And that's why Russians also spend a lot on further training. When I was in Moscow recently, I flew out on Saturday morning and spoke with a German friend who lives there, Andreas, and his girlfriend, and then I asked them what they were doing on the weekend, and, uh, Andy said, I have to work, and so on. And then I said, you Anna. And then Anna said to me, I have a speed reading course that I'm doing. Speed reading? Oh, I said, cool. I did that too when I was 22 during university, but Anna is, I don't know, 31. Yes. And when I think of my friends here and look around me a bit, I mean, who really takes further training courses regularly? And that was now, one could say, Anna is doing that once. No, no, no, that's quite often the case. Yes. Um, art courses, and not, you know, primitive or something, but really that you say, I'm going to the art academy and enrolling there. That's normal. Yes, and that's, if, if I miss something from Moscow, um, uh, if I miss something from there, it's this, we don't just meet in a restaurant and drink coffee, but we do something constructive together. We learn a new sport. A friend has
Recently started learning volleyball. Yes, and then I say, how do you do that? There is a course in 6 months, every week, and then it is also well organized, if you have formed a community, then everything is affordable in Moscow. What shows for that? he says, it costs me 25,000 rubles per session, so just under €27 somehow. It lasts about 2 hours, so that's €27 for 2 hours, that's four times a month, so €100. Yes, if I go to a club here, at an age where I'm no longer a child, no longer a student, and don't have any prior training yet, and am essentially being trained in sports, that costs me more. That simply costs me more. And that is, of course, also partly due to the large salary spread. Yes, but the salary spread says nothing about purchasing power. Yes, I believe the average salary in Russia is around €860. Yes. Yes, exactly. Um, but of course, you have to consider that there are big differences between the Russian countryside, Moscow, St. Petersburg, and, say, Wallachia and the provinces. But that is a very interesting point that you are raising. I was also in St. Petersburg last year, and was invited to the University of St. Petersburg for a lecture. I met the young students there. It was truly an intellectual joy. Some of them knew more about German history than I did. They could all speak German well, were incredibly interested. None of them were late, none looked at their phones or laptops. A week later, funnily enough, I was invited to the University of Munich. I arrived at 4 PM for my lecture, and at 4:15 PM, two students were there, and at 4:30 PM, five students were sitting there, and they were all sitting in the back row with their laptops open, and then you are essentially speaking into an empty room. So that was my experience. Therefore, I think I can confirm what you are saying about the topic of education. A very important point. Um, but perhaps also on another important economic point, namely the sanctions in the banking business. Sberbank was also sanctioned and kicked out of the SWIFT system. The European subsidiary had to file for insolvency as a result. Star Patrick. Exactly. Was liquidated. How did that affect things? The sanctions from the West against Sberbank, did that change the business? In what respect, and perhaps you can also elaborate on that. On February 24, 2022, the outbreak of war, all our viewers know better than we do. Um, you left the company at that time. Why actually? Why didn't you stay in Gust? Yes, I didn't leave on that day, but in the I didn't, I would say, separate from the company. Yes. You have to know beforehand that during the COVID period, it was also possible to work from abroad, and so I could work from Munich, from Germany, and also be with my daughter, despite the limited flight connections. Yes, it sounds very personal, but that's just how it is. Yes, and when that time came after February 2022, nobody knew exactly what was happening. Flights were canceled, the ruble devalued at the beginning. Yes, I can tell you that Sberbank, they never wanted to get rid of me or anything. It was never an issue. There were about 50 foreigners in high positions. You also have to say that I was the highest-ranking German foreigner in the Russian state-owned company. Yes, there were certainly a few well-known people at a supervisory board level, but not so many in operational roles. So, and that means there was a lot of uncertainty, but also here. Yes, so I also had town halls with colleagues, and I was away for a few days afterwards, but when I came back, there was of course a lot of uncertainty. What happens to us? What about Russia? Will the market collapse? Sanctions are coming, what does that mean? Sberbank handled it very professionally, you have to say that. Yes, so to speak, the whole thing, there was of course a huge card, a huge card issue. Suddenly, Russian credit cards no longer worked. There are no debit cards in Russia like we have. People actually all have one, so an unlimited number of Maestro cards like we have, or EC cards from before. There are actually only debit credit cards. The salary is transferred to a debit credit card. This means that if the credit card suddenly no longer works abroad, and I am abroad, I am of course left without payment. So, Sberbank reacted very quickly. There was always its own product, Mir Card, so the world card, so to speak. And they then offered that one could substitute it, if Mastercards could no longer function in Russia domestically either. The department worked incredibly fast. Yes, and otherwise, there wasn't that much foreign business. Yes, you have to say that fairly. There was some large corporate business in Austria and Switzerland. There was some business in Germany. There was a limited number of retail customers, for whom solutions were found. That was also professional. It was also professional with the German stock exchanges, as far as I understood. It was handled professionally there. But otherwise, much of Sberbank's business was in the domestic market, and much of the profit comes not only from traditional banking but also partly from retail business. Yes, so from the other retail business. There were actually few problems there. There were a few governance issues. There were many hacker attacks on Sberbank as well. Yes, so IT security was adapted. I was in a platform area. We had issues with SAP licenses no longer working, you know. You couldn't install updates or patches anymore. That was problematic. But even there, I would say, decent solutions were found, which were also always legally compliant. Yes, but of course, there was uncertainty and a lot was tried. I mean, the Sberbank app, I think Sberbank has 110 million Russians out of 140 million Russians, practically all of them. Yes, practically all. Russia can also come up with many, you know, it's not a credit rating like ours, in terms of scoring. So, at some point, the Sberbank app was removed from the app store. Then you couldn't even access it if you had a new phone. So there were many of these issues, but I would say significantly, there was also a refinancing issue with Sberbank. Sberbank also had third-party business where it was involved and hoped for an IPO. There were a few projects where they were aiming for an IPO, also in Europe, which they then sold, but there wasn't this big setback. I can also say that the bonus payments, so Sberbank still has over 100% bonus on retail. Crazy. Okay. And you wrote in an article in the Berliner Zeitung in April 2023 that it was a big mistake of the West to also sanction the economically liberal forces in Russia. Clear. Yes, of course. I mean, very many of the Russian economic elite have houses in Germany, in France, Switzerland, in England, and you know, you can have whatever opinion you want about political figures. Yes, honestly, I don't care. I have a very pragmatic view of it. I would say a realpolitik view, but if it should, that doesn't just start with the economic elite or the economically liberal, it also starts with students. I mean, today, as a Russian, you practically can't get a tourist visa in the West anymore. Of course, there are still countries that issue them in the south, yes, I don't want to name them now, otherwise they might be stigmatized, but the German Embassy, the German Consulate, as far as I know, no longer issues any visas, no tourist visas for interested Western tourists. So, I mean, they called it the "magnet theory." Yes, the West must become so strong that it reminds you of the GDR back then, in the confrontation between the FRG and the GDR, that you said, we must become so strong that the East, that people in the East have an intrinsic desire to come to the West. That's not possible. That's just not possible. On the contrary, the West is falling apart. Yes, yes, of course. A friend of mine, who I know from my PhD at MG Mor, wrote on Instagram, is that really the best way to prepare for the war? Yes, so what did you answer? No, no one is preparing for war. Yes, so it's possible that there are some planning staffs and so on. That's also professional risk management in that sense. But in the population, I don't feel that. But if I look at some media and follow some people, it's always the same people on talk shows. Yes, you shouldn't forget that. Yes, I mean, of course, then you think it's a general mobilization. Yes, and surely that's a contribution that is being made. Yes. Mhm. Mhm. How do you view the peace negotiations that are currently taking place between Ukraine and the East, this past weekend or in the past few days in Istanbul? There has been no significant breakthrough in prisoner exchanges. Yes, but an agreement on a ceasefire or a truce could not be reached. So how do you view these negotiations? Is that a good sign? I think it's a good sign when people talk. Yes, I mean, I had a small dispute over the weekend on some online portal with my German negotiation trainer, who wrote to me that Medinsky, the Russian negotiator, is a weak negotiator and very biased. I then wrote back and received a lot of positive feedback, funnily enough, from German entrepreneurs who contacted me privately and business leaders. The point is, if you look at the negotiations in Istanbul, from a Russian perspective, the negotiations in Istanbul are a continuation of the negotiations from 2022, which failed. Yes, I think you have to understand that. And then, why doesn't Putin go there? These are protocol issues. I think that's understandable. But there are also natural laws in Ukraine that the Russian, that the Ukrainian president can negotiate with the Russian president and so on. And the Russians are formalistic in many respects, yes, and they also use this formalism against someone. So I would say that was never up for debate. We in the West always thought it was about a ceasefire, but if you look at the Russian media, there was never talk of a ceasefire. It was always about creating the basic conditions for a lasting peace, about a ceasefire, but it was never said that someone would go there, that we would send a delegation to negotiate a ceasefire. That's why it always surprises me that criticism arises that Medinsky is the right negotiator. Um, but they simply don't understand what it's about, and we sit in such an echo chamber and resonance chamber and always hear someone say something and always refer to the same person, but never look at the source. That is the problem, yes, that we have, I believe. In that respect, are the negotiations successful or not? Yes, I think it's good that they spoke. Do the Russians want, that's also the question, do the Russians really want the war to end? Yes, do they want a ceasefire? Of course, the Russians want the war to end. Of course, they don't like it. We don't need to talk about John Mearsheimer or forward defense and geopolitical geopolitics versus constructivism, but for some reason, and this is mainly due to the fact that in, I believe, November 2021, Russia, excuse me, Ukraine and America concluded a kind of friendship treaty. The Russian government thought, and there was also something about military cooperation in it, that this is the point at which we must intervene. It was never an invasion to subjugate Ukraine. Never. There were 100, you can say, there were 160,000 soldiers standing on the Russian, on the Ukrainian border. That was not it. They always wanted to make a pinprick. Yes. And that didn't work for various reasons. Yes. And why is it now that the Russian government is so fixated on these protocol aspects? Yes, because Minsk didn't work. Minsk didn't work. Yes, at the first meeting in the Minsk format in Normandy, where Zelensky was also present, where it was agreed with Poroshenko beforehand that they would implement Minsk. Zelensky said: "No, I won't do it." Why? Because he was under pressure in Ukraine weeks before, because Poroshenko accused him. Minsk, that he negotiated Minsk, that one must not implement it, then one is not a patriot. That was a, so again, this is a complex situation, and it's not about blame, and yes, of course, one could say that other diplomatic means could have been exhausted by the Russian president. Yes. Yes, well, all right. He didn't. That's how it is. You have to come to terms with reality, but the president is in a good position. I think he has managed it very efficiently. Yes, you can think what you want about it, but that's how it is. Is that sensible now? Yes, I think so. And there is another big, powerful player on the other side of the pond, Donald Trump, who also has a say in things, and his engagement is also highly appreciated by the Russian side, Putin has also said that several times, but how do you view Donald Trump? Yes, positively. Simply positively, because he brings a certain, yes, uncultivated and unorthodox element to the discussion. Yes, and I think that's how you have to see it. Do I believe he can achieve it? I don't know, but perhaps more than any other administration that could exist. I believe, for example, that Jake Sullivan, the National Security Advisor under Biden, is a top man, but I don't think there was any basis for discussion anymore at that level, and I believe that Trump simply brings something different, and perhaps that's the hope one can have. Yes, in the current situation, and yesterday Saber also said it was a great conversation, but nothing came of it, and he was once again outmaneuvered by Putin. I mean, what else should he say? Should he stand there and say it was a mistake? No, of course not. He has to, it sounds silly, but maintain some kind of optimistic spirit. The situation is complex. Retreating to positions doesn't help. And that's why I think Trump brings something to the table. I don't think he plays a decisive role in reaching a peace agreement. I heard that this morning too, but I don't think it will play a role. How do you see the role here in Germany? We also have strong parties that advocate for peace, BSW or the BSW AfD. Um, so how do you see our role here in Germany? It's marginal. I don't think we play a role. I think Germany needs to be careful not to, because I mean, we are now issuing another sanctions package, knowing that the sanctions, if I look at it from a European perspective, then I would say it's more about implementation and enforcement than about new sanctions. Yes, so I think some US advisor also said that only 30% of sanctions are enforced. So, if one wanted to, and not just engage in symbolic politics, then one would look at other debit cards. Let's see, Germany simply needs to be careful not to get run over, I think. Yes, if we say we can't trade with China because of intellectual property theft and so on, and we can't trade with Russia because the Russian president is a henchman, and Donald Trump is also morally bad. Yes, which trading partners do we have left? You can't trade with Africa, you can't trade with India because you're in conflict with Pakistan. Lula was in prison. So where do you start? Where do you do business? Great, isn't it? So, yes, I think we should start building our own position and also seek proximity to the players. That also means to the Trump administration. I know there are contacts there too. El, for the conclusion of this conversation. Um, how hopeful are you that Russia and the West will come together again in the foreseeable future? Are you saying, foreseeable, perhaps in, let's say, in this context, in the next three to five years? How old are you? 32. You will still experience it. Strong. That gives hope. So, if we meet again in four to five years, nothing will have changed. Not much will have changed. I do believe that the hot phase of the conflict will be over. Um, but I believe that economically, things will still not have converged as they were. And with Germany, it will become more difficult, it will become more difficult. But I am sure that the new federal government, which started with a lot of fanfare, will strategically underpin it and show Germany a perspective. Thank you very much for your time, Mr. Kempel, and all the best. Yes, and to you, dear viewers, thank you very much for being with us again today. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Tamp. Yes, now I wish you all the best. Stay healthy, and until our next conversation here on my channel. So, [Music]