EP184 – Is Puzzle the New Clown?!?

Heat. [Music] Heat. [Music]

Boys and girls, ladies and gents, welcome to another episode of Clutch Conversations. It's your boy Mike back at you once more again live on a Thursday night in the place to be and I got the homie Brian from Healing Hatcher in the building. What's good, Ball Ross in the building. What's good, brother?

>> Feeling good, man. I'm I'm happy to be here, man. I just want to say thank you for this opportunity to do this with you.

>> Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Man, I'm happy to have you, man. I've been looking forward to this. I know we uh linked up in Daytona. We chatted about a little bit, so I've been looking forward to it ever since.

>> Yeah, absolutely, man. This panel stacked, bro. Stacked.

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, man. This is a nuts panel, man. Nuts panel, man. We definitely going to get to the show uh here in a few minutes, man. But before we uh get too far, man, let's take care of a few things.

First and foremost, make sure y'all show some love to my lovely wife, Takar. Make sure y'all show us some love in the chat. She always holding this down, man. I'm telling you, she's the backbone of this operation, man. So, y'all make sure y'all show her some love in the comments. And don't stop there. Be sure to show the channel some love. Hit that like button, hit that subscribe button, and Hulk, smash that notification bell so you can get notifications each and every time we drop a video here on the channel. Man, I appreciate y'all coming out tonight, uh, showing love and support, man. really appreciate it. We're going to take care of a few more housekeeping things and then we're going to get to the show, man.

Make sure you're following us everywhere you can find us, man. Check us out on Morph Market. Uh check us out on IG, two pages, Herp Collectors, Herp Collectors Network. Check us out on Facebook. Uh Herp Collectors page on Facebook. Oh, uh real quick announcement, man. If you're not following Cigar City Exotics on Facebook, make sure you follow uh the homie Jen on Facebook at Cigar City Exotics. uh she just got her business page started on there. So definitely show her some love and give her a follow there. And also man, make sure you check out Flex Conversations as well as all the other shows on her Collectors Network on major podcasting platforms. We appreciate the love. We appreciate the support.

Speaking of support, make sure you're supporting both US Arc and US Art Florida. The link for both organizations is in the description of the video, man. So, uh definitely make sure you check out both those organizations. It's helping protect our rights as reptile keepers. It take a lot of resources, a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of money uh to do all the things that US Arc is doing on our behalf. Uh really kind of streamlining um us protecting our rights to keep uh these animals, man. So, definitely make sure uh you support them in any way that you can, man. get a donation uh drop a donation, get a membership, and make sure you let everybody know about these organizations that's helping us protect our rights as reptile keepers. And definitely, man, check out the Double Clutch Patreon, man. The homie Matt from Evan and Ivory Reptiles. We got a Patreon organized around the podcast, Double Clutch. And man, it's a family affair. Love it, love it, love it, man. We just had a Zoom call the other night. I think we went like twice as long as uh the time we had allocated for the Zoom call because it was all love, all fun. Uh so definitely man uh check us out man. Appreciate it.

>> Yeah man. Uh we got a we got a lot of people uh in here tonight man. We gonna say what's up to some folks real quick uh after these uh sponsor videos and we'll get right to it.

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Big big big shout out to the sponsors, man. Appreciate y'all. Uh also, man, there's some spots open on the VIP tier uh Canova, man. Go ahead and get in, man. So, you can hop on to the uh facility tour, which is coming up like the first first or second weekend in November. I can't remember if it's the first weekend or second weekend in November. Uh, but definitely check into that, man, so you can get locked in for that trip.

Let's see who we got in the building, man. We got the homie >> Brandon, what's good? Peace and pets in the building. Appreciate you coming out. Herb, what's good, man? Appreciate you coming out. HB Reptiles Mack, what's good? Appreciate you coming out. We got Eric, what's good? Appreciate you coming out. Third Coast, what's good? What's good? We got the homie Randy, what's up, brother? Uh, see you in a while, man. Uh, good. Uh, good to see you, man. Appreciate you coming out. John, what's good? Lies Pythons in the building. We got the homie Vinnie in the building. Double clutch Patreon member. Appreciate you coming out. Mercury Exotics in the building. What's good? What's good? What's good? Vision Quest, what's good? Appreciate you coming out, Dan. Uh, some Bob's Balls guy. Like, anybody know this guy? You know this guy?

>> Might have heard of him before. What's good? appreciate you coming out.

>> And we got the homie Matt KMBB Reptiles in the building. Another double clutch Patreon representer. Appreciate you coming out. And of course, we got the homie Jeff from Ballhead Balls in the building. Her collectors Network represent. Double clutch Patreon represent, man. Appreciate the support. And we going to stop it right there. We going to kick the video, man. We bring everybody out.

Baby, baby, won't you listen to me? I got that flavor. I know you're dying to be. I ain't no dancer. Just got some hip in my feet. Now throw your hands up. Oo, you bring the light. I got the fuse. You make fire. I'll add the fuel. Just watch the shoes. [Music]

We know who looking like this. For real. You know who looking like this? We know who looking like this. For real. We know who looking like this. We know who looking like this. For real. You know who looking like this. You know who looking like this. For real. You know that my stomach hurts.

>> What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up, fellas? Welcome to the show, man. Appreciate y'all coming on.

>> Thanks, brother.

>> Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Man, uh been looking forward to this all week like me and uh Brian was talking about, man, it's going to be a hell of an episode. Uh disclaimer, we don't have a PowerPoint for for this episode to pull up examples of the snakes, but I think we we could talk our way through it. What y'all think?

>> Good with that.

>> We don't We don't need pictures.

>> Everybody see them.

>> They have websites for those.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They can uh they can go find what y'all got and uh inquire to buy.

>> Yeah. So, what So, what's been going on, Will? I heard you might have a little bit going on.

>> A lot going on, bro. Got a lot going on. Uh yeah, we're uh we're making the move to uh to the US. Um it's been I mean, all summer has been so stressful. Uh we just got our first load of stuff down. We're actually uh going to be neighbors there with uh with Bob. We're about 20 minutes away. So, uh yeah, man. We're excited. We just took our took our first load of stuff down the I just got home this morning. Um so yeah, we left yesterday at like six in the morning and just got in, so I'm pretty tired, but uh >> but yeah, it's uh we're we're excited. Um snakes should be coming down. I don't I don't know. Really, it's I'm just waiting on some permitting, but uh I'm halfway through the permitting, and they were It's been going pretty quickly, so it it could be quicker than uh than I had even anticipated, but uh yeah, w within But for sure by like I would think by mid-occtober, we're down there permanently.

>> Nice.

>> Okay. How many back and forth trips is it going to take for you guys to kind of get everything?

>> Uh so, we got one one under the one's done. Uh I got another one with a 26 foot box truck, like a refrigerated unit. um refrigerate. Obviously, I'm gonna keep it on heat. Uh I'm just gonna hold it at like 70 70 degrees Fahrenheit, something like that. And uh and just yeah, I have to do that trip down and back because I can't return the truck in the United States, which sucks. So,

>> Oh, that does suck.

>> I have to come back and

>> Yeah. So, if if I want to use the refrigerated truck, and I I do. Um, and then

>> yeah, I'm sure that's well worth it.

>> Yeah, I think so. It's got a lift gate on the on the back of it and everything so I can like put a rack and just like lift it up into the truck and you don't have to take box everything up and

>> and then so there's that one trip left and then another trip down with like our dogs and uh just me, the wife, the dogs. That's pretty much it really. Will the rodents be on that same truck or like how's it going to work with the rodents?

>> Rodents are in the freezer, man.

>> Oh, you just froze that thing off.

>> All the rat racks are down in Georgia already.

>> Oh, wow.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. So, you're just going to start over with new colonies?

>> Yeah.

>> Yep.

>> Excellent.

>> That would be a lot easier than trying to transport all those animals from way up there way down there.

>> Oh, I imagine so.

>> I know what the border would say if they open the back of a truck and it was full of rats. don't even want to go there, you know, smell the smell would heal first and then it would be the questions after that. What that smell is

>> You know what? It was actually a really good really good time to like I disass They were all the Freedom Breeder like stainless racks. So, it was a really good time to like disassemble everything. I cleaned every single bin. I pressure washed every single level. So, they're like brand new. They It's like I'm actually kind of like excited to have clean rat racks. They're not covered in dust and all that, you know. all this stuff. Yeah,

>> still they're shiny. They look new. I was like, damn, these are looking and then uh but but yeah, so that's kind of what's going on. It's been a been a crazy whirlwind of a summer applying for visas and all that sort of thing, but we did get uh we did get visas and yeah, we're going to be we're going to be operating out of the US.

>> Excellent. Sweet. Sweet.

>> It's exciting. It's exciting. It's a lot lot lot of change, but uh change is good sometimes, you know. So, we're looking forward to it.

>> Yeah, absolutely. You get to go to some um US shows like on a more regular basis, you'll be like, is that

>> I've wanted to vent tinley for so long like I actually had animals down for one of the Tinl's and then they canceled it because of COVID and I was like, are you kidding me? like I and the amount of work that went into it and like permitting and all this I was just like dude I'm not doing that again like it was just too much. Um but now with you know producing animals in the US it's yeah I can whatever wherever

>> hell yeah. Hell yeah. I imagine you eventually uh been at Southeast Reptile Expo all that stuff. I think probably. Yeah. Yeah.

>> You have to have

>> I do know a guy. I heard I heard good show. Yeah.

>> There would be no reason not to.

>> Put me in the back corner for sure. But

>> you better pay your rent if you want and get in there.

>> Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But yeah, no, I'll be at I'll be at Southeast. Uh likely Daytona, uh Tinley, and then those are the ones that I'm like right off the gate. I'll be I'll be at and then I don't know I might I might do some smaller ones. I don't I don't know like I'm not really all that big on driving around. I don't love that. So like realizing Tinley's 12 hours I'm kind of like oh my god that's a

>> I do that every year twice a year.

>> That's quite that's quite the trip. But

>> Tinley's one I'll do and South Southeast for sure. Southeast I'll to be honest I'll do Southeast before I do Tinley.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, just the proximity of it. I mean, and then you live 20 minutes from Bob, like

>> Right.

>> Yeah. I mean, it just seems like it's a, you know, I I've never been to it. Uh, I've not I've not I've not gone to it, but I have talked to lots of people who have. Everyone that I've talked to has given it awesome reviews. Uh, you know, like nice nice venue, nice hotels, spots to go to eat. You know, Tinley, I I love going to Tinley. I love going to see everybody. But it's

>> Dude, Bob Bob has

>> pizza for dinner, man. You know,

>> Bob has people unloading your truck for you and bringing your stuff.

>> Yeah, dude. Everybody I've talked to has been like, "This is like a a premier show." And starting like, you know, obviously being international, I talked to lots of international guides and guys are starting to tell me like,

>> "Man, I might skip Tinley and do Seir instead." And I'm like, "Hell yeah." You know, Definitely better weather than freaking Chicago. That's for sure, you know.

>> Yeah, I definitely see it trending to be like one of if not the top show.

>> Yeah, the atmosphere, everything about it is just perfect.

>> And the crazy thing is it's I think what was that? The last the one they just did was the third one, the second.

>> Yeah, it was only the third one, I think.

>> It's a brand new show and and you know with with the Bob and the team running it there, they they Bob knows what he wants in a show. Bob knows what a what what a show, you know, he vends lots. He knows he knows what makes a good show and what makes a bad show and and I I think he's putting Again, I haven't been to it, so I can't speak from firsthand experience, but

>> everybody everybody around me that I've talked to has said it's a it's a premier show and one you don't want to miss.

>> Yeah,

>> I just been it. It was great.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Y'all trying to make uh Georgia the ball python capital of the world. it.

>> Yeah,

>> pretty much going to be there in October now, right?

>> Yeah. I mean, I think it is already without without me, but

>> yeah, I heard there's a couple guys in there making some heat. So,

>> couple guys.

>> I Yeah, I'm just going to go do my part, you know, just we'll see we'll see what we can cook up in Georgia. Yeah, we're excited. Very excited.

>> Nice. Nice, man. So, uh, tonight, man, obviously we chatting about Puzzle. Uh, what was the title? Is Puzzle the New Clown? I know I kind of got an answer for that, but we can talk about that kind of stuff later. Uh, I do want to talk about the history of Puzzle just to kind of, uh, set the stage and contextualize. So, anybody jump in and kind of give us like the history of Puzzle and then kind of lead into how you got in Puzzle, then I want to hear everybody got into Puzzle. Anyone who wants to jump in, feel free.

>> I say guys, we're all three pretty much very beginning of it. You tell me who wants to go first.

>> You're off. You're probably first, Kevin.

>> All right, dude. So, 2010 is when I started kind of hearing rumbles about puzzle through Sean Bradley and Tim Bailey. Um, so I basically am underneath the wing of Tim Bailey at that point. He, this man has taught me a lot about ball pythons. Um, so at that point, 2010, I was buying into a lot of single gene codoms, uh, single gene recessive stuff, just trying to get, you know, animals on the ground to kind of give an army. uh didn't know really what direction I wanted to go, nothing of that nature. And then I get a phone call. It was uh probably March or April of 2011, and Tim called me and told me he had a snake that I possibly would be interested in because they just got a hold of some. And this was as of 10,000 2010 probably whenever the parish took away the I I don't know the exact story. That'll be somebody else on that one. But a parish relinquished basically took it where they couldn't have them anymore in that parish. Ball pythons, constrictors, period. So Sean was able to get the collection back from the owner of the puzzles who made the first one. Uh from there he kind of split it off with Tim and then they started to piece it out from there. Uh I got an animal from the the first year that Tim produced them. Uh it was a super pastel head puzzle. So that's why most of my stuff has pastel in it. Um and then about six to eight months later I was able to get a 50% Peter. It was Peter 50% head puzzle female. Um, so basically I got started, jumped right in with pastel and cinnamon. Uh, but that is how I basically got in was just a phone call. Tim said, "Hey man, I think you'd be interested in something like this to play with. You have a lot of different genetics in your collection already. I think this would be a good route for you to take. It's it's a brand new collection." So, first time I got to see the visual, it was a super pastel visual and it was that was Man, that's crazy. I can't those animals are gorgeous. Even as an adult, I have amazing looking animals as an adult to show examples of. in the super pastel version. I mean, it just it keeps it color. It does great. But obviously pastel, you can't have it and everything. I get it, but we have to we have to work our way through. But, uh, for the most part, 2011 is when I got my first one. And then 2013 was when I made my first visual. And then history repeats itself from there because I took that mail, went from there.

>> Nice. Big shout out to Bob for the super chats, too. Uh, said Georgia on Fire. Uh, shout out to Siri, Southeast Reptile Expo. And then shout out to the goat Sean Bradley.

>> Well, we wouldn't have a puzzle if it wasn't for him. So,

>> yeah, that's it.

>> And uh so what 2010 2011 you said it was?

>> Well, 2009, I think, is when the first visual was made. It might have been 2008, but the guy had it in his collection and it was one of those he was really tickled to produce it. Uh, it came from two hets. So Shawn did not realize what he sold him. So he sold the animals to the guy and the guy was able to produce the two from the hets and then that's where Shawn realized he had something. So Shawn was playing his collection for the next couple years trying to produce one, never did. And he realized he sold the guy everything that he would have had. So when he was able to buy that, I know he was tickled.

>> Oh, hell yeah. It was two heads from out the wild or

>> two? Uh, no. He got them from Graziani is where he initially got the pastels. That line is where it came from. So I don't know. And then he said Grazian looked through his stuff and never ever found anything in that. So I don't know truly where that came from. Right. Where did it come from?

>> That's wild. Same thing happens in the wild. It can happen in captivity. You know

>> we're going to see more and more of it.

>> Spontaneous mutation. I mean it makes sense, right? Like a banana just all of a sudden was in an egg, you know,

>> and more and more people

>> in captivity. We're gonna see more and more of that happen, I think.

>> Well, I think you start to kind of see it a little bit with the different variations in the pattern. I mean, Puzzle has got a variation, a very big big variation that you're not expecting. So, from from what I've seen in 2011 to what I've seen all the way to now, it's just there's so much difference. So,

>> well, now we got selective breeding in into it, you know.

>> That's what I've had fun with. I know you have. My story, my story is quite similar to yours, Kevin. You know, around that 2009, 2010 mark, saw saw puzzles uh as we sort of building a collection um was doing a lot of desert ghost and you know, bright bright stuff. And when I saw that uh

>> when I saw that super pastel puzzle, I was like, damn, like I want one of those.

>> So, I uh I bought some some hats uh from from Sean. They were, you know, probably about a year old. Uh, I bred them together, made the So, I made the I made a 1.1 puzzle um first first year breeding them. And then, uh, in the meantime, while I was waiting for them to grow up, I did buy a pastel puzzle male from from Sean and ended up making I think I bought a subad adult pastel hat puzzle and made a super pastel puzzle male. And that was like kind of the goal. Like back then that was better than a puzzle. So I sold mail and kept the super pastel. And that's been plagued me for 15 years.

>> It just like kept throwing pastel everywhere, you know?

>> I get it.

>> But we're we're we're well past the point where I'm all I'm worried about pastel. I uh I pastel is one of those jeans where like I do try to avoid it in certain things, but puzzle's not really one of those, man. It it just looks good with puzzle. Yeah. And

>> at the end of the day, the way I kind of look at it is like what are we trying to make? Like we're trying to make the best looking combos.

>> And if Pastel offers that and you know, you have to use each gene for what it what its strengths and weaknesses are. And Pastel just works with puzzle. And it's just like

>> I'm I'm not in a rush to phase out pastel puzzle combos at all.

>> No. I still, like I said, I've separated my collection a little bit to where I have still my pastel I can play with, but I still have my normal stuff. So,

>> yeah, everything, but I don't want anything with, you know, I don't want any one gene in everything,

>> but it takes you a good five to seven years to get that pastel out of a super. You know what I mean?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah, it did take a while.

>> I was just running that through my head. I'm like, "Yeah, that's going to take a minute."

>> And then I had cinnamon on top of that. So then if I had to watch for super cinnamons being a black snake, you're not going to see nothing. I don't want to produce the first super cinnamon puzzle and go, "Well, that's a super cinnamon. How do you know?" I mean,

>> yeah.

>> Do you know if you got a visual or not? Is it going to have any pattern? You have no clue. So, man, I kind of had my back against the wall a little bit, but I'm out of that situation. We're good.

>> Made all these pastel hats and then you're breeding pastel hat to pastel hat and you don't really think about it, but you're a one in6 shot to make a puzzle without pastel,

>> right? four puzzle and it's a one in four for the non-pastel and so you're one in 16 for the non-Pastel puzzle and

>> dude that's like I I had didn't make that many just until the last like four five years I started to like

>> and then once you have a couple males without it okay now we're good now we're fine now you're rolling

>> it was getting to that point it took a while

>> but I say my super pastel really came in handy making my hits for my you know exantics and true ghost and stuff of that nature. But then I know that virgin female's never seen anything else and I can tell you exactly that's what that animal is. Man, I've I've been hit with a parthrower, too. So, you know, it happens.

>> Yeah, me too.

>> Yeah.

>> Barry, when did you get in puzzle?

>> Well, so these guys are OGs here. Like what 20 2011 over here? They're playing with Puzzle. I was buying uh Orange Dreams in 2011.

>> What was hot in 2011? Was it like reduced clowns? Like what was hot around that time? Oh man, super blade clowns were super crazy at that point. Remember you had to get the stripe down the clown?

>> That was Flatline.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh dude, you know what I'm saying?

>> Yeah. Yeah. It was It was like blade clowns and things like that. Uh I got into Orange Dreams in 2011 and that was I was literally buying one from Aussie when the first super orange dream clutch came out and he was trying to figure out if they were actually supers or what they were. Uh, so I had bought like an Orange Dream Fire or something, but I I was doing Orange Dream for four or five years and making supers and that's what I was more known for before Puzzle. And then in 2015, which I had been watching Puzzle all these years, but they were all pastel and I'm an Orange Dream fan and I don't want Orange Dream Pastel. I want Orange Snake.

>> So I think it was like 2013 or 14 he made a regular puzzle. So, I started getting interested because he finally made one that wasn't pastel. But in 2015, I was in Daytona and he had a hypo uh puzzle out on the table. And I walked by that and I had just started I had just made uh hits for Hypo Orange Dream and I was like, "Oh man, this is the perfect time to get something like this." So, I asked him, you know, can I get it? If you make another one, I'm interested. And so I just kind of watched what he was doing and uh he actually made a female right after that and I put money down on the female and then after that he put a male up for sale with two adult proven double head hypopuzzled females and I was like hey can I switch over and buy that? So, I ended up buying that and trading some Orange Dream stuff. And so, I raised up a baby hypo puzzle and um it to the two double heads and in 2017 I made my first hypo puzzles. I still have one of those girls.

>> Nice.

>> Then it all went from there, you know.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, what was it that attracted y'all to Puzzle? Like, was it just wanting to get into something different that a lot of people went into it? um the pattern interactions, all that good stuff.

>> I love the eye stripes. I love the pattern. Um some of them were more, you know, subtle and some of them were more wacky, but I just felt like orange dream was going to be a great fit. So, that was the whole reason I bought it to see what Orange Dream Hypopuzzle was going to be. So, I mean that that was my attraction to it.

>> I say it was the wacky pattern for me, man. I always like the weird patterns, hingy was, those kind of combos things. cuz I just to me that's a really cool combo. So it just I have hidden gi stuff I'm play with. So I'm like you know seeing all the Kevin Mccurly videos throughout the years watching all his hidden gi combos. I'm like man I think puzzle will go really good with that. So I've been kind of throwing hing in it you know quietly over here. But uh it was definitely the wild crazy pattern and I've got to keep that broken very sharp pattern. I don't like the rounded as much. I like the sharper pattern. So I'm trying to keep it as much as clean as in my spec as I can. So,

>> I'm pretty pretty similar. I was just looking for uh like I I was trying to kind of play a little bit of money ball because back then a lot of stuff like bananas were 50K and

>> th were 15 grand and >> I think a pastel superstripe went for like I I was looking at a list about a week ago

>> of like 2012 2011 price lists

>> and puzzles were really reasonable like comparatively to to the rest of the market they were like really kind of reasonable And so I I got in kind of doing that just trying to like I really like the way that it looked and I was like man like you know I was I was a kid at the time and I was sort of like I can't afford to be buying a banana or a GHI or any of this stuff. So I was kind of like well what else can I get? That's what drew me to Desert Ghost and and to Puzzle because I could get them in that kind of three to 5,000 range where uh you know uh lots of stuff was 15 17 20 25,000 and I was just like I I was just like I'm never going to have any of that stuff. And

>> and now they're both making a comeback.

>> And yeah, now now I'm wholesaling pastel superstripes. It's like what what Yeah. Bob say albino gst.

>> Yeah, I'll leave that one to you.

>> Got my triple hits in the tub right now.

>> Yeah.

>> So, yeah.

>> So, uh like when I first came in like and I only really kind of know it from my experience with it, but when I first came in,

>> I feel like I didn't hear like as many people talking about Puzzle as I as I do now. Like when I first came in, I think Will, you was probably the first person that I heard talking about Puzzle. And just for context, in terms of timing, I got in in 2020.

>> You was like the first person I really heard talking about Puzzle a lot. And then Barry, I started hearing like about the legend of Barry Swope and all these crazy hypo puzzle combos he making. And it was like you got to like knock on the door twice and uh like tap on your head and do a secret handshake before you can even like talk about the snake. And I just feel like over the past few years, like I feel like the momentum for Puzzle is like really picking up. Do you guys feel the same way? Is that

>> 100%. I mean, I don't think it really Puzzle really didn't start taking off really until 2018, 2019. Uh up until that point, I mean, it was uh Anybody got a puzzle clutch? Uh are you do you got any luck? I mean, because you're talking at that point, 2011, there was probably five animals that could breed at that point. I mean, you didn't have much. So, it takes time to get the project to go.

>> Yeah, they were hard to sell in 18. I thought I was gonna have some easy sales and nobody wanted them. I had a bunch of males.

>> I produced every single one.

>> Yeah. So, it it's just luck that, you know, by the time I was making the Orange Dream Hypo puzzle was when everyone all of a sudden jumped in. But I feel like it picked up momentum because people thought it was going to work with Clown.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh and then now it doesn't. But I think people are starting to realize that's actually a good thing.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. It's there's benefits to it. It would have been cool for sure. It would have been cool if it did.

>> But is everybody Is everybody throwing the tile out on the clown puzzle at this point or we just say it's just kind of like the red stripe was with clown. You know, you didn't really Nobody wanted a red stripe until it hit clown. You know, it had to hit the right combo. So

>> kind I'm still dinking around with it.

>> Oh been dinking with it, dude. I've got three visuals myself. I got

>> Man, I had them proved them out this year and I'm like, dude, I'm tickled. So, three years ago, I had the visuals and everybody's like, "No, that's not what it is." I'm like, "Yeah, it's definitely something different." But yeah, it's it is what it is.

>> You got any good dogs in those?

>> Yeah. Do I know?

>> You have any incomplete dominance in those?

>> Yeah, I've got a pewer I've got a pewer clown puzzle. Uh,

>> it's got a funkier little head pattern. It was one of the pictures I'd sent in or whatever. But like I said, I can if anything I can always shoot pictures over if I need to, but uh I made that one 2019. Uh I have a sister of him that is a just a regular clown, but I'm pretty sure it's a visual puzzle. Um yeah, I just haven't had a chance to really get her on eggs to do anything. She slugged out on me this past year. Uh so I had to wait to prove that one out later. But

>> I mean I don't know, man. Like I said, I've got She's a funky clown. Like you you've got your clowns, you've got your crazier pattern clowns, and then you got this one. Like it is the backstrap just screams puzzle. It it's just to me it's like the attitude screams it. Like it just there's everything I need to know. I've done this for too long at this point. Um but I just I feel like there's something missing. Uh I'm I'm going in the direction of Gstrike Clown is where I'm going. So I kind of I went for the Gstrike puzzle and then I didn't like the initial one. I was like, let let me go ahead and pivot and change something different. So I added clown to that. U so I've got those growing up. So we'll get to see maybe in a you know a year or two see how that looks. But I don't know.

>> Yeah.

>> I'm in the same boat with pi.

>> No pi.

>> I like those puzzle pads. I like

>> Yeah, man. You got to bring pi. You got to have pattern and pi or I just there's nothing for me. I just I have to have pattern. I have to have it.

>> Yeah. And it's unfortunate that most of the ones I made are high white. I don't think a puzzle has anything to do with that. It's just

>> Are you looking to get like itchy or something in there that brings like the pattern back?

>> I do have an entie uh hypo puzzle pi female that I'm raising up, but she's striped instead of banded, which you know, with entie pides, you can get both ways. So, you know, I I just didn't get the right look. But I I really don't know. It's like clown pi to me. The only clown pides I ever liked are the no white ones. So maybe if I make a no white puzzle pie, it'll look cool. Those are usually when they're more whacked out.

>> Yep. Totally agree.

>> Yeah.

>> So

>> puzzle clown I'm still playing around with. Not a ton. Not a ton. Um

>> No,

>> I I do have a I do have a girl that just gave me a pre-lay shed and it would be for like a Palm Puzzle. So Pompei puzzle.

>> Pompei puzzle.

>> Yeah. That that that set of jeans in in Puzzle Clown. Um,

>> see, but then you got something working there.

>> Oh, yeah. I've got jeans and I got I've got hur I've got like hurricane clown hat puzzles. And

>> I'm tell you you you got it.

>> Yeah. We'll see what happens. I mean, I I really like for a while my kind of theory behind like I obviously you hope the puzzle clown did do something back when we were making our all our double hats, but for the longest time like the only like my whole philosophy and the way I built my collection was I had

>> hypos and DGs and pies and puzzles and lavenders and this and I would just go buy like one of the hottest clown males in the season and run it to all that stuff and then just keep all the hats and then I'd buy the hottest clown male the next season and going to all that stuff again and keep that heads and so just by by nature of doing that I ended up with a lot of jeans in double hat puzzle clown but I was pulling all those jeans from clown into puzzle and uh and yeah, I mean, don't know

>> at least you have all the jeans in there whether it works or not you can at least make the puzzle versions of all that stuff

>> yeah, that'll be pretty cool too

>> or both you clutches with both you know

>> yeah, has anyone Unlike anything else, you just got to find it.

>> Who knows, man? Who knows? I mean, I'm not going to hold my breath on any of it, but it's very it's very bell better than Puzzle Cloud. Yeah. Well, I guess I guess is is a bell better than a clown? Because that's that's where you're That's what it looks like.

>> Uh but uh

>> I can probably sell a bill before I can sell a regular clown

>> with mixing puzzle and clown. It's become easy for me to pull genes from like hypo and DG and all that stuff together. And I I'm

>> honestly I'm fine running down that like DG hypo puzzle clown with a bunch of incomplete doms all tied together and just

>> even if it does just look like a clown. You make DG hypo clowns alongside DG hypo puzzles. Like I don't

>> I I'm fine with that.

>> Yeah, it's a win. There get there gets to be a point where we're gonna be like recessived out. Like how far can we go with all this [ __ ] And like really

>> if I can just like put pull jeans from clown and puzzle and put them together and make hypo puzzles, hypo clowns, DJ clowns, DG puzzles all together.

>> I mean,

>> yeah.

>> I'll take those clutches all day long. Yeah, I like those clutches. Yeah.

>> Yep.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Thousand%. So, uh, what jeans you guys think think work best in puzzle? Like, talk about some of the directions you headed with it.

>> Uh, I would put yellow belly at the top.

>> Yeah, it's a good one.

>> Yellow belly.

>> I put spot.

>> Has anybody made like any of the leic combos with a puzzle? Like like a highway puzzle or a freeway puzzle?

>> I just made a highway puzzle. And

>> you made a highway puzzle

>> and Kittinger has made an ivory puzzle, orange dream, which you can barely tell with ivory. And I have some that might be uh puzzles, but it's barely a zigzag. But I did make a a highway spotnose puzzle, I think, but it's hypo, so it's harder to tell with the pattern. Waiting for it to hurt a shed.

>> So, I've tried to stay away from that kind of stuff unless it was like a campfire. I'm trying I've got a clutch currently in the incubator for that. So, we'll see. don't want to.

>> The superstripe puzzle stuff that Ryan Elrich was making was pretty cool.

>> Yeah,

>> I don't have uh I haven't made any AIC puzzle stuff yet, but uh I do have a clutch on the ground. Well, should be on the ground any day now. Um and that's a super super asphalt uh VPI Zanthic to a puzzle.

>> That' be good.

>> I was just about to say I wonder what the super like asphalt would do with that. Yeah, I want my goal is to go down that like super asphalt DJanthic puzzle road.

>> Yep.

>> I think it'll I think it'll work out. The the pattern on the highway puzzle is is pretty nice. If it wasn't hypo would be a little brighter.

>> Yeah.

>> And uh I I'd like to see the cinnamon black pastel. I mean the black pastel enti version of an

>> puzzle type thing. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yep. I say I've got a clutch right now for that. I mean, cinnamon sugar to cinnamon sugar head puzzle to pastel in obviously got pastel in it pastel iny and it's the fluff gene from Sean. So, from what I've heard, that's like a red jean. So, I'm kind of looking at that kind of trying to perspective of what I'm going to produce because nobody's doing anything with fluff. I get asked all the time, what's fluff? And I'm like, dude,

>> oh my god. Oh, bro. Let me tell you, the reason he gave it the name of Fluff was because he found it in his banana Mojave stuff that he had and he said it kept you hard. So, it's like the fluffer. And I was like, dude,

>> so get away. Yeah, I'm trying to get away from that. And, you know, just for, you know, family home entertainment kind of thing, you know? So, I don't want to be like educating some kid what a fluffer is, you know? It's just kind of It's kind of messed up.

>> Yeah. Classic Sean.

>> What does that gene do exactly?

>> Well, it's it's a red gene. It's basically it just blows all out. It's just like reging.

>> So, yeah. I'm just like I said, I'm just going to start marketing. I think is that because I just I've got to do something, man. I just Everybody askked me. I'm tired of getting asked. I'm just like, man.

>> Yeah. There's so much stuff floating in puzzle. You got your chaos or chaotic or what what you going with chaos on that?

>> Yeah. So, that one was a that one's interesting. That one came out of one single hat and I just got lucky. I I bred a male to her trying to make possets way back in the day and then male just sat around forever and then I bred it back to her to try and prove him out and made like three of these like super busy knot puzzles. They're like the the patterns like super super thin and I was like, "What the [ __ ] are these?" And anyways, it was the only like I've hatched lots of like weird stuff over the years and it was I've never really messed around with dinkers or like messed around with that stuff. Yeah.

>> And it was the only thing I've ever kept out of, you know, 15 years of breeding snakes that I was like, "These look different."

>> And then I bred that male back to mom, made them again. I took that male and bred them into like a whole slew of like nonrelated puzzle stuff and even some pet puzzle stuff and made none. And I was like, "Okay, well, every time I breed them into like nonrelated hat chaos stuff, I make nothing."

>> And then when I breed them back to chaos stuff, I make them again. Um,

>> so I just hatched another one. This is the first time I I grew up those hats and used a male and bred it to a completely unrelated hat. I bred it back to one of his daughters, made them again.

>> And so to me, it's certainly appears like another recessive

thing in there. Yeah, have another clutch uh hatching mid-September for that stuff. And uh, yeah, I I don't I I've had a lot of people reach out wanting like, you know, when are you going to let it go? And I was like, dude, I don't even know how it really works. Like it it certainly appears to be recessive, but like, you know, in today's today, the way the market is today, I don't want to release something. I don't want to jump the gun and release something before I really, really understand it and like, okay, and then I can say like, okay, this is how it works. This is what you're getting. This is what you're paying for. But if you're if I release it now, it's kind of like, am I super confident that these people will buy these hats, breed them together, and make them? I'm confident enough to keep them for myself and do it, but I I I just I just don't know yet.

And then the other thing is like, if if I hit them on the next clutch, I'm pretty confident. Um, and then I just want to honestly, I just want to start seeing like spot nose in there, leopard, hurricane. I want to start seeing what it can do. Can you tell the difference between a puzzle chaos and a chaos or a puzzle without it? Chaos and it didn't it didn't survive. It was a [ __ ] up egg. Uh, you could definitely see that it was like puzzle and chaos in the same animal.

Okay. It wasn't just a It was like a really, really weird looking puzzle, but like it it was like it looked like a puzzle, but the pattern was super, super thin and like all jagged and. Yeah, it was uh, but unfortunately, it didn't make it out of the egg. I have some pictures of it. I haven't. I'll send I'll send you after. I'll show you some pictures of it.

Yeah, I definitely want to see that. Yeah, it's a. It was neat looking. I wish we could figure out the cryptic thing.

Yeah, honestly, all this I see a lot of people saying like cryptic puzzle, cryptic puzzle. Yeah, breed one, breed one to one to a hat clown and show me krypton cuz. No, no one's. No one's. I don't think they are, man. I think they're just variants of puzzle. It's so polymorphic and I know guys have bought puzzles from you, Barry, as not cryptic and then are posting them as cryptic puzzles. I was like, okay, whatever. I started to call it cryptic phase now so I can explain it that it's not the cryptic gene, but uh, you know, Aussie just used it as a descriptive word and now we're in this boat. But I do seem to be able to it almost seems to be like a head thing like it carries on to some and if I breed certain ones back to certain ones, I have more chance of hitting those because I kind of selectively breed for it because I like it, but I don't know what it is.

Like a polymorphic like lime bred thing. It. Yeah, it might. I see puzzles that are like, you know, you have blocky patterned ones, you have like wired patterned ones, you have like there's like three or four different distinct looks all within. I I always hit three different looks. Like there's a boring puzzle, then there's like your textbook puzzle, then you got the cryptic puzzle look, and yeah, there's.

Is it any relation to the weirdo stuff? I don't know anything about weirdo. I don't think it is. Weird. Weirdo was a gene that was like it it does remind me of like the ringer gene in blackhead where it like floats the sides very high.

Right? Um, that. I think that has anything to do with head daddy. That's what a lot of people were saying is it's daddy daddy all in my stuff that I've proven over the years by hitting veils and stuff like that. So.

Yeah. I have it too. But. Like that super pastel hidden gene walma uh special puzzle I made. That thing looks like it might be a a platinum. That whole clutch was weird. So I'm like, well, I could definitely be head daddy stuff in there since it's all my my line.

Um, but I've never bought a puzzle from Oz, so I don't have the weirdo stuff. If that. And. I always thought the weirdo was the cryptic and then he went cryptic weirdo and I'm like, I don't know what he's talking about.

Well, see, then I've had people buy animals for me and then send over Aussie, hey, what do you think this is? He say, "Oh, it's a weirdo." Well, I don't have anything. I've never bought anything from him as a puzzle for that. So, I don't know. I guess it's the same thing as the whole cryptic thing with you, Barry.

Yeah, I see the name. I see the name floating around and stuff, but I haven't like done any research to go see the single gene version.

We have a cryptic test and we have a puzzle test. Like whoever is posting cryptic puzzle, just spend 50 bucks, man. Test it. Let's let's get to the bottom of it. But no one ever wants to do it, you know? I don't know.

I actually bought a. I know why. So, I actually bought a hypo hypocryptic and I'm and I'm working a hypocryptic, but I haven't read it to puzzle. I thought about it and then I was like, well, clown doesn't do anything. Well, then what what would make Cryptic do something with it if they're so? So I have so I didn't even bother.

Maybe one day. But I I did hear that Justin made double hats. So if he ever says anything, then it didn't work.

I've hatched some puzzle hat clown stuff that looked like everybody everybody was like, "Oh, is that At first I thought it was a puzzle clown." I was like, "What the [ __ ] are these?" They're really, really like extreme versions of what you'd think it would look like. And I tested them for cryptic. I tested them for clown. I tested like I tested them for everything. And it's a pastel spot-nose puzzle. 100% hat clown.

Like it's not. Yeah. Not that's it. It's what it is.

But it doesn't look anything like like I've hatched plenty of pastel spot-nose puzzles and then this and it's like they're so far apart that I'm like, "Okay, there's something going on here." I've I've noticed that a lot of my puzzle hat clowns are like quite visual.

Yeah. Yeah. My my hat pi ones. Puzzle hat pi's the hat pi is amps them up. So I mean, there there's something but. Yeah, I don't know. I definitely wonder if we get into a I wonder if we get into a spot in the in the market where we start using single copies of hats for like influence on on uh um on pattern and stuff. Like I would like to have some of these puzzle hat pi's. I don't really want the puzzle pi. I don't really want the puzzle clown to be honest. But if the puzzle hat clown looks the way they they do, then I want.

Did you see? Did you see the yellow belly hypo puzzle hat pi at Bob's? No. Oh, we didn't look at. I hardly look at any snakes.

You didn't look at anything. So, the one that we sold him is hat pi. And it's like the best hypo yellow belly puzzle I think I've made. And it's the hat pi that's amped it up.

Did you say you would consistently uh send the hat influence with different combos? Yeah.

Um, he's seeing it with clown and I'm seeing it with pi. I haven't really done any other.

You can also go by the the head markers as the indicator of how aggressive that snake is. My visuals are sweethearts, but my hats are possessed. So, if that if anybody else is the same way, you'll kind of know exactly what you got.

I don't have the mean puzzle thing. I feel like that was tied to the pastel. Oh, dude. My dude, my pastel puzzles, all my visual puzzles are sweethearts. My my hats do. No, they are of Satan.

I would say like. You said that with a serious ass look on your face, too. If I ever come out, it's because of. Yeah, my original puzzle stuff were [ __ ] Like just straight. Straight [ __ ] They were like pulling clutches from them and [ __ ] It was just an ordeal. And. I just recently they've been they've been fine. I like the feisty ones because they eat well, they grow well, they.

Yeah, you know, you know they're gonna eat. All my puzzle stuff eats well. Yep. I don't mind the feisty ones either. No, it doesn't. I kind of like them.

Well, if my visuals are sweet, then that's what makes it. So, that's at the end of my day, I'm like, I'll deal with some hits. It's okay. I'm going for the visuals. It'll be all right.

Yeah. I I did have one entie hat puzzle that would it was giant and it would bite at you every time you open the cage, but I didn't raise that thing. I I had a puzzle female that was the it's the only snake I've ever had that's left a clutch of eggs to like come at you.

Oh wow. She was sitting on the eggs and came off the clutch eggs and as I had the bin I was at the bin and came right up and was like, you know, let's do this. I was like, oh [ __ ] All right.

It's a ball python. Like at the end of the day, it's like just. So, so will Will, have you noticed it seems to be year of the cypress puzzle? Cypress puzzle. It seems to be the year the year of it cuz like uh what Hulker made a black pastel cypress puzzle and I made a hypo cypress and a spotnose cypress and.

Somebody else had made something and actually Kittinger just made a cypress yellow belly puzzle. Hypo puzzle. Yeah, he just hasn't posted it yet. But uh. Cypress yellow hypo. I'm see starting to see a lot of cypress.

I bet that's a banger. Oh, it's it's hot. Its pattern is is ridiculous. I made I made a cypress puzzle like five year a pastel cypress puzzle probably 18 maybe and sold that overseas. And then uh. And then I don't think I made any more until this year and then I this year I made another uh sorry I have an adult I have an adult straight cypress puzzle female.

You sent out her girl recently. Yeah. And then I've got the I have a I made a pastel cypress lace puzzle this year. Finally got a lace lace puzzle male.

Wait, do you see the yellow belly influence into that? Are you gonna have you're going to we're going to need to do some more cypress puzzles for sure. Oh, well, I got them I got a I got a visual male now. So it's gonna you should start seeing them roll out here pretty soon. I don't and and I missed with GHI Cyprus, but I'm hoping that the male hypo GHI cypress I made is actually head puzzle so that I can have a male that has cypress.

Elusive. Oh, I missed it. Six eggs, five GHI hypos, and then and one cypress hypo puzzle. So, I only hit the puzzle on the non GHI animal.

Yeah. I got I got one out of out of four years trying. I've gotten one so far.

I don't know why they're like that. Puzzle. Yeah. Well, you know, it's got one other gene in it. I don't I don't think I have to tell you.

Passed out. For a long time, we thought that maybe the GHI puzzle just looked like a GHI. I remember kept missing. I think between Randy, you yourself, Kevin, like between all of us, man, we had like we had put down like 90 millions William and nobody did it and then and then all of a sudden Joel was like, "Hey, I hit one." And I was like, "No [ __ ] way." And sure, sure enough, he did. And now you're starting to see like a couple, but they need to I wonder something. There might be something weird where they like they can't they don't.

Yeah. I don't know. Something weird where they don't click with like normal odds cuz.

I have no idea but I know I'm putting Xanthic to it the first time she breeds so that's all that matters to me.

Yeah, it's just it was pretty odd. Oh, I'll take an exanthic puzzle on her all day.

Hey guys, I want to take a real quick take a real quick sponsor break and then come back and uh talk a little bit about the future of puzzle.

All right, known for his innovative approach to genetic shed testing and top quality ball pythons, Grey Rider Reptiles also excels in exceptional customer service and responsiveness. With a quick turnaround time, Charlie ensures you get the service you want and need. Visit shedtesting.com to explore his offerings and experience the best in the business. Don't miss out. Head to sharedesting.com today and unlock the power of your breeding projects. [Music] Peace and love family. We invite you into the heart of our serenity. Ancestral Royal Pythons. At Ancestral Royal Pythons, we're not just breeders. We're nurturers of love and growth. Each of our high-end ball pythons is a tribute to the grandeur of the natural world and our dedication to quality. Reach out today and bring one of our creations into your home. This is Ancestral Royal Pythons. Your journey begins here. [Music] Passion. Some are born with it. Others chase it their whole lives. At MCBR, animals aren't just a business. They're our legacy. Driven by obsession, defined by quality. At MCBR, the passion drives us. The quality defines us. Our motto is simple. Live your dream. For years he worked in silence, shaping projects few could even imagine. A figure once hidden is now stepping into the light. The vault is open. The path is revealed at the center of it all. Barry swoop elusive propagations from the shadows to the spotlight. The vision is undeniable. [Music] Hypopuzzle King.

Damn, you put an ad in your own episode. All right, you're done. Showing you guys up. Yeah, that's right. Good, Mike. Appreciate it. Appreciate it, man. Appreciate you coming on as a sponsor, too. Uh, big shout out to all the sponsors. Big shout out to the new uh sponsors. Uh, Josh, MCBR, man. to Captain Bread Reptiles and of course the homie Barry Elusive Propagations. Appreciate y'all fellas. That was hype.

Yeah, I really had fun making that one. Yeah, it was that was different. That's cool though. Hey, I'm just trying to get my name out. Well, not my name, my my brand out there now. Yeah. Oh, everybody knows. Everybody know. Everybody.

So speaking of your brand, talk a little bit about that and kind of like what made you shift from kind of like just being like just bar swoop to branding yourself and kind of coming out like this. Oh, uh timing. Uh, it wasn't at like I never had to try to promote myself before because I usually was I had somebody else selling stuff for a while, then I was wholesaling to friends and things forever and I never even had to get out there. I mean, last year was first year I got a Morph Market account. So, just kind of timing and, you know, it's a I don't want to just be giving away these really nice animals. you know, it's they need to get them get the retail out there and get myself out there and, you know, just I don't know. It's just timing, I guess. [Music]

So, what you guys think about the future of the puzzle game? Like, like where do y'all see it headed? I know I asked a question uh in the title of the video, is Puzzle the New Clown. Spoiler alert. I personally don't think it's the new clown because I don't like really saying anything is a new anything. Like I feel like that they're their own separate thing. Like Clown does a whole bunch of stuff and I understand why people like it and I understand why it's a bunch of people in it. Obviously a bunch of people being in it comes like with its own challenges and stuff like that, but Puzzle, it does its own thing. Like it's its own thing. I don't want to like ruin anybody's answer, but that's just kind of how I'm thinking about it. And I think they're both like hot. But specifically for Puzzle, like like what are y'all predictions for the future and kind of like where do y'all see it going over the next several years? I mean, I think we're all going to agree on this one. We all think it's going to I mean, the stars I mean, far as you want to take it. I mean, we're just now starting to scratch the surface. I mean, we're talking the first one came out in 2009 and now here we are removed 15 years, 16 yearsish. I mean, you're talking it's still infancy. We still have a long, long way to go. But, I mean, example, I mean, you know, Barry, he's going hypo. I'm going exanic. So, eventually we're gonna pull him together. It's got to go true ghost. I mean, that's kind of for me. I'm sitting back doing all that. So, I know Will, you've got your DG stuff going. We all kind of have our own little niche we're jumped into, doing our own thing, and it kind of makes it all special for us.

I I have to say there's so much I want to do still that I don't I'm like, I don't care if it is going, you know, if people are losing interest or gaining interest or what, I have a ton I still want to do with it. I want to work with it because I want to make these animals that don't exist. That's it. Yeah. I mean, I we were all of us were in puzzle before it was a big thing. Yeah. And I'll be in puzzle long after it's the sunset, you know.

Well, we saw we saw something. We saw something. And I like I really enjoy that kind of unknown. I I I like with clown, it's Don't get me wrong, I love clown. I hatch lots of clowns every year. It's a huge part of my collection. It's always going to be. Um, but it's getting progressively harder to like really hit a clown where I'm like, "Holy [ __ ] what is that?" You know, like they're we're really kind of like we've stacked a lot in there and now it's layering recessives on top. Um, where puzzle I mean we're jumping into like layering recessives on top, but there's tons of stuff we haven't even seen.

I I'm also learning um less is more. So like I had a five gene stacked animal right next to a two gene animal that well three gene because they're hypo but. I had a yellow belly spot nose hypo puzzle next to one that had five genes but everyone liked the two you know the yellow belly spot nose hypo puzzle way better because just those two genes interacting together were phenomenal. With like just hats in general sometimes I make the visual of something but the hat is a better looking animal, you know, like we don't always have to be like this recessive focused thing.

I I feel like that with the acid clown stuff, man. I love the way all the hat combos look better than the clown combos. Yeah, dude. I mean, some of some of the like the black pastel redst stripe combos and like cypress red stripe stuff. I think they look better on their own than with a maybe I mean they could probably like add hypo or DG or DJ's hand like get a cool look but like as far as like changing it up it's cool enough how it is. Um, but with puzzle, I mean, I think the pretty obvious answer, like for me at least, is going to be desert ghost puzzle, hypo puzzle, uh, DJ hypo puzzle, DJanthic puzzle, hypoanthic puzzle, like we're that's because those are just kind of like filters that we put on it and then you can like play with the play with the the look of them. I agree like with the heads like a lot of time or some of the times like for example I hatched a vanilla spot nose ghi I think pos red stripe double head um hypo clown female and like she just look crazy like the pattern just crazy don't look like anything I really seen before. It's hard for me to imagine like the double visual version uh looking better than that one does. it. Yeah, sometimes it is better than that version and then you're disappointed when you make the combo. You're like, man.

Has there ever been any puzzle combos you made and you're just like, h this incomplete just probably not going to work with puzzle or you just haven't stacked it right. Maybe. Blackhead so far for me. I like I the blackhead puzzle on its own. I was like, eh, it's all right. But. Oh, I I see places to go with it, but yeah. Oh, don't get me wrong, it's still here. there's place to go. But is that your vision? That's that's I don't like to ask it like as if like it's something that just doesn't work with it's just not stacked right with another gene or something.

I don't think puzzles as reactive with like a single gene. Like it's like if you add like one gene to it, it doesn't like give you this crazy wild. Like just a yellow belly puzzle. Isn't that crazy? But then you put like two or three more on there and then you start to be like, "Oh [ __ ] this is this is quite different than than uh than you'd normally think."

I can't say I was disappointed yet. I had I hadn't found one yet. Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't even in the. Puzzle combos. I was like. I was say I did make some puzzle clowns and I wasn't all that. I found I found one. Yeah. Yeah.

Y'all got any genies y'all actively keep out of puzzle? Uh, for me, it's spider. That was the first one I never want to put in it. I just keep that in. I feel like spider's going to make a comeback one day once everyone stops worrying about the the wobble bull crap. I mean, if anyone if any of. What? The spider is the best animal to give to a kid. The spider is the best animal get to any single gene single animal that wants to go to like a single household kind of thing. I my spider stuff. I sell those to kids all the time because they eat great. Yes, they're funky. They're crazy looking, but the kids love them. But at the same time, there's nothing wrong with them. Just inner ear. They they they are always thriving at feeding and they're always uh breeding early breed. Yeah, they spiders actually were never. The combos be sick, too. And it's kind of influence is insane. Man, those original like super orange dream beads. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's what made Orangeies and [ __ ] Oh yeah, dude. You know, it's kind of like a little hypocritical that we're all like, "Oh, no, no spider. No spider." And then we're making like cypress spotnos and chocolate stuff and like all all stuff has the potential to wobble. It's all in that same family. I'm with my own eyes super chocolates that are that have that. That shape. Super blackheads do it. Super dude spot does like. Barely ever talk about champagne. Oh yeah, that dude. Oh yeah, I. I'm not like I respect anyone who's working with champagne. I don't have a single champagne in my collection. Have any of you guys. The worst wobbler I've ever had was a champagne like champagne. Have any of you guys ever seen a hingene walnut wobble? Cuz I haven't. And I don't understand why they put the label on that one and not the other morphs.

All right, so, I've seen I've seen some, but mine that I've produced have not. So, I have seen some that wobble. I don't know why some do and some don't, but everything that I've ever produced hinge lama has not wobbled. Well, say like super cypress wobbles and then I hear some people say some people say it don't wobble. Well, somebody some spiders won't, right? They some spiders are totally fine. It just depends. But I have hatched super spotnos that are like so bad they have to be put down. And then I've hatched. Chocolate super chocolates that have had that headshake. And then I've had super chocolates that are completely normal. You'd never know any anything else.

Oh, you had super chocolates with it. I didn't know. It's all the whole complex. The whole. It's all in that same spider complex like blackhead, spotnose, cyprus, chocolate, wookie, all that stuff's in that same family. And I mean, I don't know if it's I wouldn't be surprised to see chocolate spot nose with a little bit of it, you know, like I think mix that those those complexes together, but we turn a blind eye because chocolate spot nose is so cool looking.

Right? We have a little hypocritical, you know? Yeah. My chocolate spot nose stuff don't wobble. I do have a power ball though. Yeah. I just spot nose and it seems fine. Yep. And majority are right. Like majority will be totally fine. But there I I and I've not I shouldn't say chocolate spot nose. I've never seen that combo wobble. And I don't know if you maybe if you like the alals like if you have like a blackhead spot nose doesn't seem to wobble. Cypress spot nose doesn't seem to wobble. But super cypress super chocolate super spot nose super blackhead any of those have the have the ability to do it. Yeah.

Yeah. My super spot nose uh he wobbles like crazy. Like the loopiest snake that I got. But he eats well and he breathes well. Another great looking snake, too. Yep. He ivory, too. So, I don't know even know like really what he looks like. He's like a ivory uh ivory powerball ult.

So, do you only know he's Powerball cuz he wobbles? Oh, he he was he was testing. But you could definitely tell like, "Oh, he's got to have some kind of wobble gene." The worst wobble I've ever seen was um a chocolate chocolate spider. Like that to get Oh my god, dude. Like it was. But like that male, the reason I like that male so much because from a breeding perspective, it's basically it's a quad.

Yeah. Yeah. And you'll never make the wobble animal from there because it's all going to be just spot, yellow belly, whatevers, you know, like. Yeah, like when you breed the AIC that's wobbling, whatever you breed it to, you're not going to make the Aelic animal again. So. Yeah, unless I breed it to like another one. Like Yeah, exactly. Like Ker made some uh Ker made some acid hidden gene WMA fire red stripe something something clowns with uh spot and the hidden gene wma made them crazy as hell. And he goes, "Man, I'm just going to freeze these things." I'm like, "Hey, those things are powerful. What are you doing? Like you're not going to make retards, you know? They're they may wobble themselves.

Have you guys seen any of the like the cross alals um wobble? So like chocolate spot nose chocolate or cypress cypress spot nose. That one did the the hidden gene and waln I've made you know chocolate spot nose chocolate cypress wookie cypress and those all seem fine. I've not had no not at least nothing I've noticed but the supers definitely seem to.

Okay. Have you Have you What is your incubation temp? What are you doing on that? Me I'm about 88. Okay. So I I was at 90 and I dropped mine to 88. So at 90 I had all kind of wobble whenever I was first started doing this. I was at 90 trying to get those eggs to hatch early. It's not a race, man. It's a marathon. So I lowered the temps 88. And then I started getting to where like any spiders, spotnose, uh, chocolates, anything that has a wobble complex, champagnes, my heniwas, possibility, anything like that, I incubate those at 86. When I do that, I have a lot less issues. Yep. It takes them about it takes them anywhere from 70 to 72 days to hatch, but I mean that it's they're there.

H, that's interesting. Never thought about changing the temps for that particular problem. Any anything that I ever do when it comes to wobbles and stuff. I just hatched out some uh triple heads. So, hidden gene phantom triple head true ghost puzzles. Uh, just hatch those out. No wobbles, no issues like that. But I 86. I just take them all longer.

Yeah. And I feel like that's worth the wait. You put them in a separate separate incubator. Yeah. Yeah, I did. And then also I can also knock it down to where I have my fans going for the top half of my incubator cuz I've got a it's a 4 and 1/2t tall incubator. So, if I leave it bottom, it'll be about 87 86 kind of thing. It doesn't get all the heat to the bottom. So, then I'll just kind of block it off and I'll just have all the fans shooting up. So, I'll it'll it'll run 86 87 kind of thing. And that's typically for me it works out pretty good.

That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I added fans to my hot box because I don't think the one or two fans does it. So, I have two blowing up and two blowing back. No, you know. I got two fans to my hot box, too. About how many wobble clutches have you hatched like at the lower tip or about how many snakes? None. None. I mean, I I've probably hatched out 15 20 at least. Uh, I've been. Clutches and none. At least. Yeah. No wobbles. I mean, that's I started that in 2019 cuz I had a clutch come out in 2019. Man, they were so messed up. It was spider complex cuz dude I was like okay. I saw Kevin struggle in a picture and I was like I've got to try it. See if I can do it. I got to have it. Uh, didn't work. They came out. Man, you talk about just slapping themselves against the cage. I mean, it was I I put them down. It was bad. Um, so then after that, I was like, "All right, let me knock it down to 86." I did a different temp. I did a another spider clutch. Same dad that, you know, fathered that one. No issues. And I was like, "Okay, let me try it again." And I tried it again in 20 and I'm just kind of further from there. So, normally I move the stuff up in the incubator because the top of it is hotter than the bottom. And if these guys, I leave them at the bottom. They stay regulated 86 87 and it's pretty good. I mean, 15 plus clutches, that's a pretty good sample size.

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. How much longer did it take? It's it's anywhere from 70 to 72 days. If you're at 86 degrees, it's about 70 72. If it's 87, you're looking about 67 69 kind of a degree. You're you're about that. So, if you're used to cutting on day 55, just let them ride.

Yeah. Oh, [ __ ] You basically wait two weeks for no wobble. Yeah. Yeah. I have heard. I have heard stuff that's incubated um at a lower temperature will come out a bit more robust and and like strong. I can't say I can't say that. I can I can pro I can show that I just had some spider I just uh had two exanthic spiders this year this year I just patched out. No wobble. They were tiny babies. But so I can't say nothing about that. But um.

Any of that stuff back? Huh? Did you keep any of that stuff back? No, I didn't keep those back. I've got a GHI combo that I end up keeping a couple years ago. So, I was like, I'll keep it in that. And it's an Xanthic stuff. So, that's the only stuff I've got spider left in isanthic. I just, man, everything happened, you know, nobody wants it. So, it's kind of hard to keep in your collection. I just I keep one animal. So, I've got it. So, just in case every popularity comes back again, I've still got it. But.

I always think about that like, am I going to be able to find a spider again? Like, try to find a try to find a plain desert. Remember desert? Yo, dude. I got burned on that project, man. Cool, though. I would I would still like to just try it once, you know, and you can't even find it. Yeah, dude. Caramel.

You guys have any normals? Not hat. Not Not the just normal. Yeah, I have a normal. I have my original girl that I got that's a normal. Yep, I do. Yeah, I don't have any. No, I don't. I may I may have hatched some, but this year. I've hit I've hit I've hit a few normals on like like they'd be like one in 128 odds to hit. Yeah, it's not often I hit a normal, but again a while. I've hit crushed eyes in the wrong way. Yeah, it's like I'm almost happy sometimes. It's like all right. People are excited to see a normal. I mean, that's that's kind of a weird thing. Nobody sees them anymore. Yeah.

I don't I don't see I don't see anything like the normals that used that I used to import in when I worked at a reptile distributor in like 2001 and two. The normals were so pretty with all these different patterns and now we just have the most boring normals I've ever seen. Yeah, they were. They were all just byproducts. They were not itchies. But I mean, there used to be a wider array of phenotypes of plain normals, you know, and now it's just kind of. Basic. Yeah. Yeah.

Desert was one of the that's the best gene that never went to never went anywhere. I even like Antoine built this whole collection around Desert when he first started. Lot some a lot of guys did, man. You know, that was my first like real wakeup call in in ball pythons. I bought a desert and. And that was kind of my first like who's Justin, you know, like I I was breeding deserts and then they posted some thing on Bush League and it was like oh by the way. They're like are you kidding in like come on. Didn't Didn't um Desert stall out Desert Ghost for a little bit because they were getting them confused. Yeah. Many people reach out be like, "Dude, why are you breeding those? You they're not going to breed. Why are you buying those?" I was like, "You need to do a little more homework, man, because they're not the same thing."

Was it you who just started calling it DG to kind of get away from that? It was somebody who I talked to. No, I just. People just called it I just I don't know. DG. It was just It's always the. The bells. If I say the bells came out with that one. Yeah. Yeah. It's always just been like the acronym like easier way to like instead of blackhead people put BH, you know, just. Yeah, I know somebody had mentioned that they start like intentionally just referring to it as DG to kind of keep it separated from the whole. Desert stigma. I can't remember who I heard that from. I heard it from somebody.

But that was one of the that one actually worked out really well for in my favor because so many people were like, "No, I don't do desert ghost because the desert thing." And I kind of knew the whole time people were telling me they wouldn't lay eggs and I'm having clutch after clutch after clutch and I'm like, "Dude, they're laying eggs, you know." I heard the same thing with Tristripe that Trist stripes don't lay eggs and I've had, you know, probably a dozen Trist stripes lay eggs for me now. And I'm like, dude, yeah, they do.

That's what I heard when I first got it right now. I don't know how those those like rumors start. It's because it's such a weird one. It's like. I wonder if it's like people just trying to keep the project on the down low for a little bit. The desert's the only one that I can think of where like the females are truly infertile. Black Black Valley, too. Remember? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had that. I had. The same scaleless too, right? Yeah. Scalus is the same way. True.

Is there any infertility issues with caramel albinos or is it just. Bro? It's kinky, man. Let me tell you, they will breed their asses off, but they kink like a mother. Uh, I produced a puzzle caramel albino. Didn't know that I had pad in it. Uh, didn't think it was anything and I cut the egg and I'm like, "God, dude, this is cool. What is that?" A caramel albino and it's a kinkedked up puzzle. So I was like, "Yay, cool."

It's too bad because I think caramel is the best T positive. It is. In my opinion, I like it more than Mon and Ultra. Even as adults, they're glowing that they look so good. But. I have to have issues. I have an adult. See the Camarillos back in the day. That was the ultra cross. That was awesome. I made some uh ultra male monarchs. Don't ask me why. Just because I could. But. And I didn't know what to do with them. So I was like I'll just. I guess we'll see if it does something or not.

What what how long ago. Made the double heads or you made the visual? They're double hats. They're double heads. They're about uh they're blackhead calico double hat monarch uh double head monarch ultramls. They're about Yeah, they're about about size now. I'll probably breed them this year and I'm going to go for the super blackhead ultra monarch and see watch it be like just crazy. It's I mean, it's. That's what I was thinking. Who knows, right? Like Yeah. Some like crazy kind of like just caramelly color. Dude, if you can get that purple that's in these caramels as an adult, it's insane. Oh, dude. That was honestly that's the snake that got me into ball pythons was the caramel glow. Yep. Yeah, that thing was pretty. Oh, dude. Mark Mandic had one and that's how I kind of started. I bought us snakes from a pet store and then went home and googled ball python and ball python care and mandic site came up and I saw that and was like, bro, why doesn't mine look like this? Like this is crazy. And I went down to Marks and bought caramel pinstripes and heck caramels and away we went. And that was like my first like real project was caramel albino. Yeah.

And they were all too happy to sell them to you, too. Yeah. I did I did really well with them. I did really well with them. You know, I I had some pretty good odds and I was in my university dorm room and hatched some caramel albinos and posted them online and some guy made me an offer I could absolutely could not say no to while I was in university and he showed up to to get them and I was like kicking like beer cans out of the way. I was like, "Yeah, yeah, come on in. Come on in." And yeah, and sold them some caramels and, you know, put rims on my car, paid tuition. Yeah, it was.

So, we'll we'll ask a question here. Like, what are y'all's thoughts on the Scrambler puzzle? I didn't see. I mean. I think I think it's gonna be really good. Oh, Chris Herren made them. Yeah. What do you think about that? I I I don't know that scrambler is a thing myself. Uh, to me, I feel like it's either calos or hip hides or something that gives it the look. I don't think it's a gene, but that's my opinion. So, I don't try to shove it down anyone's throat or anything.

I mean, I honestly don't. He made those recently. Yeah, he just made them this year. He did an inchy was it inchy orange dream combo? Had them at. Vanilla. It was a vanilla enty orange dream yellow belly puzzle and then one was like a calico inchy yellow belly puzzle. And uh I tried to help him ID him a little bit and I was like I'll leave the Scrambler thing to you because I don't I don't know [ __ ] about Scrambler.

Yeah. Yeah. I honestly I don't I I haven't like looked at them closely enough to to offer. I mean, whatever's going on in that snake it looks really, really good because I seen it in Daytona. Right. The orange is. A great looking snake for sure. I I feel like the. I feel like that one was calico also. I feel like a lot of the stuff he has is calico, but he says isn't and there's no calico test. But I mean, for all I know, he's breeding super calos at this point and everything's calico and he's just saying they're scrambler. But I I don't know. I'm. I see uh one on North Market now. Puzzle Scrambler in Calico. Yeah. I mean, most the scrambler stuff is what? Mandix's pied stuff. And then, you know, his stuff seems to usually have to do with Calgo, so I don't know. But almost every orange dream, yellow belly, anything I've made in the past looks like a scrambler animal. So, I don't know.

I've I've been to Mark's plenty of times and looked at some of that stuff. And the the scrambler pie stuff that he's shown me definitely looks like there's something there. I It's like It's banded like a I don't know. I don't know. I don't It's not I don't even know what to compare it to. It's like It's got this crazy banding in the pi. It's throwing like pattern back into pi, which I was like, damn, that's If you can do that, that's great.

Yep. We have some that we thought were enties and they weren't enties. So, we just started calling them fake enties and then people are saying those are scramblers. So, I don't know. Maybe it's a thing or maybe it's a thing like. Well, almost everyone I think has Scrambler in their collection. That's the problem, right? Like Mark Mark had started showing like, you know, some of the combos he'd made and then it would felt like everybody was like, "Oh, Scrambler, Scrambler, Scrambler this, Scrambler that." And I was like I was talking, you know, I've talked to Mark about it. I was like, "Is all these guys have it?" He's like, "I don't know." You know, who knows?

Yeah, that was one of my big things with it, too. Like like I saw the animals that Chris had, I saw the animals that Mark had or some of the animals I should say and a lot of stuff like with some really nice looking animals, but then all of a sudden like I feel like everybody popping up. Oh, I got Scrambler. I got Scrambler or you got Scramble's too, right? Cryptic was like that too. Someone jumping on the bus to for the money grab. You know, they're going to follow. Oh yeah. You know what I mean? So Hearnan's doing really well with it. So everyone else is jumping on like, "Oh yeah, I got it too." You know, and. Because I saw a snake in in one of my hatchings the other day. It It has to have scramble. It just has to. Has to have I I don't.

Know, man. It might be a thing. Maybe it's not. Will it ever be tested? Something? I don't know. I mean, Hearnan makes great stuff. He's doing a great job minding all that stuff. Insane.

I love what he does. I just don't know the first thing about Scrambler, and I've been making stuff that looks like that forever and just kind of put it off as what hip pie does or what orange dream yellow belly reacts like. But, say, 'cause all mine that I have that looks like that came from my sugar stuff, so it's all hypo sugar. It's all so I mean, like that sugar puzzle I hatched, dude. Is that it? Like, I mean, you know, I mean, that thing was pink and orange and still cool looking. So, yeah, no, it was a great. It works great with puzzle too. Sugar puzzles are amazing looking.

Calico and Sugar are going to make a big climb in puzzle. I think that would be the next thing I'd be adding. Yep. That's I've got a boy ready to go this upcoming season for 26. I'm tickled. So, calico puzzle. Yeah, that's a cool one. I don't have any calico in puzzle yet. No, sure. I'm raising one up. Calico Sugar. Yeah. Yeah. Same. Same. Yeah, same. Well, whatever. Yeah. I mean, yeah, lineages probably go back somewhere different, but you know.

Well, they they were a little different. Like the flororopona calos have the more. Look what. No, the more white supposed to be sugar from what I. That's what I'm saying. Mine are more white. So, mine is full sugar. Yeah, the floric faunas were like all the orange and the scrambler type look stuff, you know, like the stuff that Chris is working with is is more. But I don't know. I never knew if they were different lines. I don't think anyone's got a calico test yet. So, that's a very underrated gene as well. Underappreciated and sugar.

It's it's great in puzzle and I think it should be added if you don't have it already. Some you should be adding. That's why I see a I only have one. I see a few for sale. I I see a few uh like what there was a black blackhead calico combo uh com puzzle combo online and some other one that some guy had. They just sitting there. They're probably still online. I'm like, why are these sitting here? On more market? You know?

I hatch out a cinnamon sugar puzzle little female. So I'm like, all right, I'll sit back on that one. That's just a building block. Yeah, I have a yellow belly calico and it's and it's hat hypo because I used a pastel calico puzzle to make that. Now I have a hat hypo. So now I can go somewhere with it, but all the stuff I want to put it to has yellow belly.

Yeah, I'll tell you one thing. I don't know if you've seen a Mirage gene from Tim, but uh it's like a yellow belly. It has he found it in his ivory. Uh it came out of an ivory. It's a it's a Mirage gene that Tim Bailey found in his collection. Uh I just hatched out a Mirage. It was a super pastel mirage puzzle. Uh hatch that one out. So, it's got like the yellow belly pattern to it, but there's no super. So, there's no white snake that I have to worry about.

So they're just a really neat jacked up pattern around the belly. It's really kind of crazy. Oh, so there is no. Does it behave in combos like similar to yellow belly? Oh, yeah. If you look back at Tim's website, you go back in like 2013, 2014, you'll see like a super pastel yellow belly mirage. Man, the flames that come up through the back. So the dorsaline is basically where it separates the pattern. The flame will go from the side like a yellow belly would, but it carries all the way through the back dorsal and carries to the other side. I mean, it's just a sweet pattern. So I just hatched that one out. I'm like, "All right, I can add that into things that like the yellow belly pattern, but it just doesn't have the ivory super."

So you mix it with yellow belly. Does it have yellow at all? Man, I have tried and there's about Tim's tried. I've tried. There's about five or six other people that have tried several years. Nothing. So, I mean, I've just nothing's happened. Or if it is, it's not one of those that says, "Oh my god, look, it's a super." I I mean, complex type thing. No, it's nothing like that. Right. Right. Okay.

So, I've got a chance of making those inantics in in 15 days. So, we'll see if that works. So, I might have more exantic puzzles in that. So, I don't know. We'll see. Yeah. Hopefully, you hit something. No, I'd love to. Trust me. I'd like to see you hit more Zanthic puzzles period. That that's a it's a cool thing that I've been never got into with Xanthics, but everybody seems to love them. They seem to be good sellers and I like what they do. I just haven't I don't have that project.

So, the thing with Exantic for me I think took the longest was just the line breeding. I mean, you got to think John, he pretty much made the market for Exantics with the SKS line. I mean, it was just like, dude, that was the the pillar. If your animals look that clean, that's what you're looking like. So, I strive to do that. So, at this point, I've got my animals to where they are pure whites, pure blacks, and while they get to adult, they're looking amazing. So, basically, I've just been sitting back just hoarding stuff back, and I'm going to get to play with that now going forward. So, but it's.

You have VPI, right? Yeah, I got VPI. Yep. Yeah. So, I mean the I've seen a few puzzles. You made a pastel one and there's a couple others out there, but uh man, it's going to be nice. Yeah, that's I've made five true I made five of those exactly at this point. So, okay. I've got a few exanthic puzzles on the ground.

Any of you guys working with leopard in your puzzle stuff? Does it always stripe out? Uh most of mine does. I like it with leopard enti puzzles seem to get you seem to like break up that striping. And since I have het pi in mine, I feel like the het pi ones are stripier than the non-het pi ones. That's that's what I've noticed. Leopard entie puzzle combos and they look I I think they look pretty good. Yeah, le leopard surprised me when I made leopard puzzles. I still. Yeah, I didn't think it was going to strike it.

I still prefer like I to me the spot nose puzzle is my my my favorite so far. I'd like to see like super hurricane. Uh I always try Hurricane I think is going to be great with puzzle. I want to see that. I've seen a few. I've seen a few. Frog made some combos, right? I've seen a trick I seen a trick puzzle. Jason had one, but. Dude, that straight trick puzzle was like my favorite one so far. Yeah. Just the straight and then then you can do go the super and all that sort of stuff in there. Yeah.

Um. Yep. I feel like Hurricane is like been used in clown all this time and and yeah, I never really caught on to it or paid attention to it and now I'm starting to see more stuff. So now I'm like really on board with Hurricane. Yeah, I like Hurricane. It's probably one of my favorite jeans actually. Yeah. Yeah, Hurricane is dope. I'm doing some like weird weird. Works with everything. I got some doublehead zebra puzzles growing up. No idea what that'll do. I got some that are going to hatch out. So. The double heads. Okay. Oh, the double heads. Well, well, hypo zebra puzzles. Triple hits. Triple heads.

I feel like that's a gene that's catching on really good now, too. Mary, do you have puzzles that are not hypo? Yeah, but they're hypo. Okay. So, you don't have any just like puzzles? Uh, no. There's no point. I I really like hypo that much. Every if if there's something like so paint. Now, I'm working really hard in paint. It had to be hypo. So I finally made a hypo paint and that's my building block because everyone overlooks hypo. Where's a hypo monsoon? Like it's annoying me. Everyone puts it in clown and then they forget about it. Like cryptic. Cryptic's forgotten about. I have a hypocryptic. I'm like I can't even find another one to breed it to if I wanted to. So I'm like I'm just going to work with it. See what it does. But hypo is just always the forgotten stepsister. But it's the best gene that doesn't ruin anything. Chad Wilker is pretty pretty well along in that project. Puzzle paint. Yeah, he's. Puzzle head paint like adults now. So. Yeah, I hope I hope it'll be good because I'm I'm really pushing into do puzzle paint stuff. So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I mean it has potential. Who knows? Who knows what it'll do?

I don't know. But I like to go to the unknown because I get bored. Me too. So. Me too. Yeah. Paint stuff. That's another gene. That's another gene that's been catching my eye a lot lately. Just the paint stuff. Matt working it real heavy. I just. I don't want to get into a new project or four years ago. Because of the space. Say again. Paints, dude. You could have couldn't give them away. Yeah, they were about four years ago before the paint 2015 16. Like you could literally could not sell them.

Well, it was kind of same thing with DG man. And you couldn't do the same thing whenever the whole desert stuff came out. Nobody want. It's I mean, it just shows this market so like flavor of the week, you know? It changes. What people want changes so much. But if you're out there building a collection and you're like flavor of the week, you're going to make any like real strides. You got to figure out. You'll be out in five years. That's kind of how that goes. If you don't have a vision for yourself, you'll be out in five years. You're all over the map. It's just not going to work. Yeah. I've seen that 100 times, right? We all have. You've seen guys come in and they want to get this and they get this and get this and get this and none of it like meshes with each other. You're not like. Developing a project and like showing people like your vision with it. And you're just. You know.

I actually acquired a lav puzzle project and it's ready to go like like a breeder male and three double head females and I'm like everyone's not into lavender, but I'm like I I still kind of want to play with it and make something. All right. All right. I I have a I bred a lavender puzzle male this year. I just kind of on the back burner just like, you know, just [ __ ] with it. Don't see what happens with it. Yeah, exactly. I I I've never had a lavender. I haven't had albinos in 15 years. You know what I mean? It's like. Yeah. But like I don't know. I acquired it on trade and I'm like I've always wanted to see someone do something with it. At this moment I think there's just lavender and pastel lavender. Done anything else with it. So. Yeah, I've been I just been putting them into some like random stuff that I think would look good in lav. Yeah. Because lab clowns look good and we we know we can get pattern in puzzles. So, we I don't see why we wouldn't be able to get some wicked looking. Maybe we can collaborate on that in the future. Well, it won't be too far away. Shipping should be cheap. Yeah. It's a lot easier now. Be a lot closer. For sure. Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, it's like dead end jeans come back. They come back. Yep. Everything's got to wait its turn. Spots was trash until Justin bred it to a leopard clown. Yeah. Well, look at Red Struck. It was the same way. Yeah. When I first got in, people was hating on Hypo. Yeah. Hypo hypo actively. Yeah. Actively hating on it. I mean, I remember people talking [ __ ] about clown. We saw like clown, pastel clown, pastel lesser clown. And then people were like, "Oh, it's just a striped striped snake." And it wasn't really until Justin came with like Leopard and Spotnos and and really started to like show Clown that that's when. Clown took off. Dude, Clown's been out since like 1994. That's when VPI made the first one, I think. Yeah, Pi was a big one when I got in. Clown was really not. Pi were the were the big ones in like 2009 for like a thousand bucks. Mhm. Like people just kind of like get rid of them. You know what I mean? I could have sold that same female in 2018 for 3,000, you know? Y. After getting eight clutches out of her. Like it's Yeah. So. Everything comes back around, man. And just work the project. Yeah. You just have to you just have to find like, you know, hey, no one's done anything with this. What can I do with it? You know? You got to be intrinsically Yeah. You got to be intrinsically intrinsically motivated on this [ __ ]. Right? Yeah. You have to separate yourself in the project and no matter what it was, you got to separate yourself. So. No, like I said, that's why I did exanthic puzzle. It took me a while because it took me seven years to hit the first double visual. But, you know, it is what it is.

And honestly, like I've tried to explain this to a couple guys before. It's like people like, "Well, I want to work with stuff that everybody wants." And I'm like, "Yeah, cool. But producing 80 babies a year. You only need to make stuff that 80 other people want." You know, like realistically. You're if you're producing 2,000 babies a year, probably cover the whole market, right? But most of us aren't doing that. And like I I only produce what maybe 300 babies a year. And if if that some years. This year I won't even hit that. And I don't need to do what everybody else likes. I need to do what I like and hope that there's 200 other people that are also interested in what I'm doing. And if that's. I only do 20 to 30 clutches. Yeah. Right. Like I've never been big batch and I never I never will be like a 100 clutches is like my absolute max. There's no way you're going to see me doing 200 250. No [ __ ] way, man. No way. I did 90 one year and I felt like I was drowning. Just one year. I was like, "No, I didn't." I just felt like a rodent breeder. I was like, "I just live in the rat room and then I get to feed snakes once a week." It's like, yeah, just not for me, you know? That's why I came up with the jander term. I'm just a jander. That's all I am. And that's something else people don't realize either, man. They get in this, they think animals are great. They get into it, they have 30 of them, and everything's great. And then they realize that food bill and they realize how much feeding and how much cleaning and all that extra time you got to put in. It's not It's not all sunshine and rainbows. Not at all. You can go from you can go from 30 females to, you know, 200 snakes like that in in a in a span of a month or two when they all hatch. And all of a sudden you're doing 10 times the amount of cleaning and you need 10 times the rodents and 10 times the deli cups and all the the bedding and. Yeah, sometimes people Yeah, people get in really easy with this. Really? I think I had. I had 14 clutches last year and for me that was felt like too much. I only paired 10 females this year. It it can be a lot when they all hatch at the same time. It does get to be. Well, I had five go in one week. Especially depending on like what else you got going on in life too. If you got something else that's taking up a lot of your time, like it become a balancing act. Crazy. The year the year we did 90 was the year we were building a new building. I was just like this is crazy. Like this is insane. It was too much. Yep.

But uh yeah, the long dude, honestly, the longer longer every every year that goes by, the longer and longer I've been in this, I used to try and chase what was hot and make the hot combo and then try and get on. And the longer and longer I've done this, the more and more I realized like just work yours projects. They always end up selling out anyway, so what the [ __ ] does it matter, you know? Yeah. So, like, yeah, work the stuff you want to see. And you know that term curiosity killed the cat. That's that's me to the tea, man. I always like I wonder what this will do and then I make a bunch of [ __ ] and I'm like ah man that you know I I do that all the time. But I just that's why I breed ball pythons because it'll be unknown and try and you know try and find something that's. Every once in a while you find something really cool. It's living art. You got to put in work. It is lots of question. It's a living art. That's all it is. You gota you do your artwork. Educated guessing. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy how far it's changed though. So much has changed. Like now we're shed testing and genetic test like. That. Like it's it's crazy where the industry's come and I excited for the next 10 years, you know, 10 years to go. I can only imagine. I can only imagine how much it's evolved for for like guys like you guys because how much it's evolved for me and I've only been around since like 2020 and how much evolved since then. Yeah. Imagine the evolution that you guys have seen. Yeah, you came in. You guys talk about You guys talk about 50k bananas and I'm like mind blown over that. I'm like, "Yeah." What? Try finding try finding reptiles before the internet. Did you ever get you get your emails and you get your you get, you know, your your uh letter that came to you in the mail? That's what you used to get. Oh, you we used to go to Daytona for that mail for places. Yeah. Yeah, email. But I was around for like the um uh bp.net, bush league breeders, all that. Stuff. I was around that. And then uh and then, you know, transition onto Facebook and that social media blew up and then onto Morph Market and John built Morph Market and that that whole like. Progression of things is uh. Morph Market really morph market really did a lot of good stuff for us. I mean, we had King Snake and stuff, but man, it wasn't it wasn't like Mor. No, social media has done the most. I've never seen it grow like it has since social media. Yeah. That's why I have social media. I wasn't into social media. I didn't want it. I only have it for snakes. That's it, dude. And then now scrolling like an idiot, you know? But I didn't want it. You won't if you go to find some picture of me or something on my personal page, you won't find it. It just I don't have it. Yeah. I don't. It's all odds. God said people are producing triple visuals. They're second season. It's a new game. Yeah, it's true. But those people can't ID basic yellow belly combos. It's like we have gone skipped the whole thing and you're like, I don't know what anything is. Thank god for shed testing. Pretty soon it's going to be like a fortune cookie, right? It's just going to come out with a label on it. Stick it on the bin and put it in the. Pretty soon we'll have a AI identifying everything for us. We just test the egg and and sell the egg. I Well, I was asking Charlie, I was like, theoretically, right, you could take fluid from the egg and you could tell me what it is before it hatched. And he's like, I mean, in theory, you could. I'm like, "All right, I'm going to send you a whole bunch of. A bunch of vials like. Little syringes. Should I incubate this one? Should I mail?" Just like, "Nope, you're going to start finding stud fees and stuff. That'll be the next thing, right?" I'm surprised you haven't got to that yet, man. I'm telling you, it's definitely doable. I I was reading about artificial insemination in snakes and they did it with Berms. And I imagine that's the next kind of. That would be pretty close. I wouldn't wouldn't be surprised. Barry can send me some of that calico calico a bottle of that calico puzzle stuff and. Yeah, is that where it's gonna kind of less animals. Hey guys, I gotta find a charger for the phone. I didn't know we're gonna be on this long. Okay. So, uh, what kind of impact do you think that'll have on the market? What? For what? Like say if we got to the point to where we could like uh like artificially inciminate snakes like I feel like everybody will start buying and and doing it and then boom, we go from 40,000 on more market to 120,000. Like what? Well, you would I mean the the basically I imagine your stud feeds would cost the most and then you'd run into the how many realistic times where you think the not and every stud feed like my grandfather used to raise quarter horses so I kind of know a little bit about the whole stud feed thing how it works. So the thing is not every single time would that work. Well you weren't on the hook and you were I mean that wasn't his fault that it didn't take. So, if that's the situation you're running into, is there a guarantee with that or is there no guarantee? Like, is there the next phase in this is kind of where you're going. And that's kind of a slippery slope.

I don't know where we're going to go. I don't know what the next phase is. I mean, there's thing with this like especially with AI and where technologies going is I don't know if we can even predict artificial insemination. Sounds like one that's like quite reasonable, something that we could do, I'm sure. Um, but I I don't know, man. I mean, if you if you had said 10 years ago when I was getting in, you could just send in your shed and they'd tell you exactly what's in the snake. I'd be like, "Yeah, [ __ ] mine." And here we are. Sending sending sheds to to Charlie and RGI every week. So, don't know. Don't know. Yep. Don't know. It's a It's interesting thought where where does the market go? I think we're going to go back to like a lot more um not so much like right right now the market's definitely in like stack recessives like just stack them as stack them to the ceiling and get as many recessives as you can. But I don't think I mean, there's not that many quads that I think are going to be like stunning. There's a handful sure there's a handful that will be awesome. Right. You got to have codeons. Got to. Yeah. And I I've I've said this on lots of. I mean, even with some Kodoms could wash them all out too though. But why aren't we like double stacking Kodoms? Why aren't we like a DG clown homo homozygous DG homozygous clown? What if we do. Uh super hurricane white lace? You know, it's just a double it's a double super and then you add spot nose to that and yellow belly to that and that's your new like spotnose yellow belly. It's just as hard to make. It's the same. It's the exact same. And with shed testing, all recessives are now are incomplete dominance that we can pay to find out. So the realistically the odds work the exact same way. Het clown works the same way. Pastel does. You breed one het clown, you just can't see it where before we could see with pastel. Now I pay pay Charlie, he tells these are hat clowns. These ones aren't. And so we can we can stack recessives like real fast. Now, I took a quad hat DJ asanthic monsoon clown, took a male, I bought a male from Justin, bred it to a DG clown and made a DG clown that tested double hat asanthic monsoon. Mhm. In order for me to to do that normally. That would have been like. Four or five years. Like 10 years, man, to like actually do that, you know? Breeding. Yeah. You're talking four or five years. What you got? Is that to try and figure out what it is and all this. Yeah, there's there's been a lot of stuff where I've been like the shed testing thing is like been like, "Oh boy, but it's also like great for advancing projects." The ultimate end winner are the people walking around at shows being like, "Oh, look at all these pretty snakes I can get." Because pretty soon DJ's antic clowns like it people call me crazy for saying this but there will be a point where DJ's antic clowns end up in a wholesale box and DJ's antic puzzles do and super orange dream cypress spot nose puzzle. Yeah, it all ends up there at one point they all go to that at some point. So, y. I think the real real trick moving forward is to like really focus on stuff that's like jaw-droppingly nice. And. That's subjective, right? Like some people like. I mean. Puzzles, some people like ultra and. You know, hate everything. I it's it just depends on. You know, what brings you down to earth is when you talk to your friends that aren't into snakes and you show them pictures of something and they're like, "Why is that one worth any money?" And you're like, "Well, to us it is, but to you, yeah, it's like darker and uglier than this banana, but you know." Like. Dude. I have people come over and I'll like open up like a DG hypo clown bin or like these these stuff that I'm like super happy for and then I'll open up like a pi. They're like, "Whoa, what is that?" Yeah. Show Show a non-snake person a bell. And sometimes we do. Exactly. Sometimes we do buy a morph just because it's, you know, new and something to work with. And it's actually not that nice. You know what I mean? Compared to the stuff we could get. Yep. I can think of a lot of like like just super OD calico stuff or chocolate spotnose stuff or cypress redst stripe stuff. Like you could go down those roads for a long long time and I think you're going to make. If it passes that grandma test like if my mom comes in and I show her two snakes and I'm like, "Which one's cooler?" She's like, "Oh, that's Cypress Red Star. That one's really pretty." And then there's a DJ's antic sitting beside it and she's like, "Yeah, I don't like that one." I'm like, "But this is a DJ anticide." And she's like, "Here's. You might as well be speaking Mandarin to me. I don't know what that means." You know. Meanwhile, they're looking at a spider highway and they're going, "Oh my god, whoa, look at that." Yeah. Right. Right. So, I I think there's, you know, something to be said about that. And like early on and when when I was kind of getting in, I was kind of at the tail end. And I'm sure you guys, too. I was sort of on that tail end of that like codeodon craze where we stack so many codons together that you remember Curly's old videos granite this this is and it was like white at some point we're like. Oh, we put all this. Too. It's too much and I think now we're going to go back to like. The reason this combo is is valuable or expensive is because it's got these specific genes in that order. It's not doesn't have the one that washes it out. It doesn't have that. It's like this is the combo you want to move forward with. And are you looking for like as an adult phase? Is that what you're kind of looking at too is when you're making your your babies, are you trying to see what kind of an adult it'll make? For sure. For sure. I mean, you know, at some point we have to admit like we sell babies, right? Oh, absolutely. But I don't My personal thing is like I told you, I'm a janitor, right? So I want to open my tub and see something and says, "Oh my god, look at that." Instead. Oh, is that a piece of [ __ ] or is that is that the snake? I've raised so many double heads that I'm over that. I'm over the whole like. Just normals and. Yeah. I don't want to raise snake anymore. I just want to raise like pretty stuff. And. You breed cool [ __ ] to cool [ __ ] and you make cool [ __ ] you know? So. Yep, that's the true ghost for me, man. That blue gray as an adult. Oh, man. Oh, dude. There's lots of stuff that's super pretty like that, too. And that's a jean combo that's like over like not over underrated. There's so much stuff out there that's like gorgeous gorgeous to look at. And that's why hypo is is so easy to work with. Like you could buy a Cosmos and then buy, you know, 10 adult breeding ready hypo combos for nothing and breed the Cosmos to them and make, you know, hypo combos and get all the combos going. Like like hypo so versatile and easy to work with and easy to find. Easy to find the the next step because everyone thinks they're worthless until you make it. Go, oh, that's what we got to do. And that's partly why I got into it. I just hatched some my first hypo clown today or while I was gone. But yeah, it's nuts. It's nuts. I like hypo clowns. They got look they they got overlooked when DG. Yeah, they did big time. I've been making some hypo stuff this year. Actually, it might be the most gene I'm making the most of this year is hypo combos. Been in my ear like, "Get hypo, get hypo, get hypo. All right, all right. All right. But uh but yeah, like I I, you know, those those super pretty snakes are the first ones to sell. Yep. Outside of like the like uber like project snakes. Yeah. So the you know like a Cosmos, don't get me wrong, Cosmos is a cool gene and I'd like to work with it. But if you put a Cosmos on the table or a Super Orange Calico hypo 10 super OD calico hypos for the price of a Cosmos, right? But to read look at for three years and like I Yeah. I mean, to me I know what I'm picking. Yep. Yeah. You're talking a super orange rain guy here. So I. Or even like white lace combos or. The orange in general. Yeah. There's. There's there's lots of stuff that I think is really overlooked just because it's not recessive. Correct. Yeah. Gonna go through a deconstruction phase. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised, man, to see the I for the longest time, man, you know, the industry goes one way and I kind of like watch everybody go in that same direction. I'm kind of like I should probably pivot, you know, probably go down a different road while everybody's doing that. That's honestly why I don't have any clowns. I mean, yeah. That would be the How many breeders you know that don't have any clowns? Like I had to make a decision. I had to make a decision like four years ago because my room is so small. I'm like he's making pompes and I'm looking at my collection and I'm like I there's no way I can keep up in this room with with that. My whole thing would have to be clowns. And I had already started puzzle and a couple other things and I'm like, you know what? I'm just going to get rid of these and concentrate on this stuff. And it worked out well for me. I honest to god I think that's something that a lot of people should be doing if you're going to run a small 20 30 clutch collection like hyperfocus be be the master of one instead of like because like look at like Barry you're perfect example of this you have taken hypo puzzle put it on your back and run with it when someone says where do I get a hypo puzzle there's one answer really it's you you know like call. And I'm not like mass producing like Justin or. But if you if you had have said I'm going to do ultramount clown and hypo clown and hypopuzzle and dgpuzzle and aanthic clown and this you'd only be making like small steps in each one but because you're able to do 10 or 15 or 20 clutches of hypo puzzle you make big steps in that project each year and it shows. It's kind of rewarding too like like I only have one shot at like each thing every year so when I actually hit something going for. It's like a big deal, you know, and sometimes it's I price it accordingly. And when somebody doesn't like the price, why you want to charge that much? And be like, well, I missed it last year and I hit it this year and I had to make the parents and it took me five years to make it. So, you go make it. That's why. Yeah. If you didn't want it, right? Like, Yeah. So, yeah. You go buy the ingredients and wait the five years. I'm trying to hold that. I Which one you want to spin? Yeah, I try to hold that at a higher level, you know, and and just kind of I've had to come up with my own prices a lot of times. Like I was the first one to make the orange dream hypo puzzle. Well, no, somebody in Europe did, but like, you know, when I had three or four to sell, I'm like, I don't know what to charge for these. I had to come up with the price. And then, you know, every every year I just have to go, I don't know. To me, it's going to cost you this much to to get it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I mean like look at the hypo puzzles you're making. It shows, you know, like. Yeah. I don't think anybody else is making hypo puzzles like like you are. Nope. I appreciate that, guys. I know it's a sponsor and [ __ ] but. Well, don't worry. Kiddinger's on my heels because who do you think bought up a bunch of them one of those years? Fair enough. Fair enough. Jason's got Jason's got some nice stuff too, man. Jason's a sleeper, dude. Like nobody knows what he has and he has a lot. Yeah, I I'm going to start making some more. Um, incomplete dominant type animals and maybe just some stuff I'm not even breeding with for the hat that's on it. Right. Clown females that I'm like, I just like the jeans that are in her. I don't care about the hat clown part. I'm just using her, you know. It's what I've done with mine, man. I did all my puzzle stuff. I did like 30 different combinations in it and I just made headsets for them all. And now I'm just going through and making the visuals and then holding those visuals back and carrying it on because when it's my time, it'll be my time. I'm just at that point, I'm just riding and doing what I enjoy doing. Hell yeah. Well, when you got about 20 aanthic puzzles for sale on your table, you're going to be clearing house. I have one right now, but I'm 20. Uh. Maybe maybe years. Yeah. Oh, dude. Coming. I got two visual girls ready to go next year. So, I'll see what kind of stuff I can do. So. And I'm going to be standing there two rows from you and thinly, you know, and everyone's going to be coming over going, "You got any puzzles or true ghost puzzles?" No. Have to go see. Puzzle anymore and just puzzle now. Yep. I'll take it, man. Because I [ __ ] everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. It's work, man. You put work in and and if you do it right, you it pays off at some point, you know? Oh, it will hopefully. It's gonna pay in a big way. We know works in hypo and DG. So, like it's a it's a staple moving forward, right? Like it's. Oh, for sure. Yeah. No, it's it's one of those things you kind of you kind of get beat down a little bit, you know, because it doesn't happen whenever you think it should. But man, at the end of the day, I'm looking at these animals that I want. So, I'm I'm tickled. So, I I can't get mad. I'll just sit back and enjoy what I'm doing cuz like we've all said, at the end of the day, we'll still be doing it. So, I mean, it's kind of how I look at it. You should be pairing for things that you want, not just pairing for [ __ ] to sell. Oh, absolutely. I can't wait to see some of the [ __ ] I produce. The byproduct should be the misses. Yeah. Yeah. And all these Yeah. Yeah. And all these people who bought in at 2020 and they're already jumping out because oh the market and this and I'm not, you know, it's like look dude, we we every project I've started took at least five years to even get anywhere. And it doesn't mean it sells right away. You have to put work into it. You have to. Get to it. I mean. This is full of peaks and valleys. It's definitely. Kind of I kind of feel like it it takes you a little while to really grasp what you want to do anyways. Oh, it does. With within the within the hobby, you know, which jeans or projects you really want to settle on. I feel like that even takes probably a couple years. At any time. [ __ ] Like you like too like. Because a lot of times you be influenced by stuff that people who you look up to when you first get in and kind of what they're doing and what they like. And so you kind of align with some of that stuff. And then as you spend more time in and you start working with stuff yourself, producing stuff yourself, seeing what different genes do, then you start developing like your own taste for it. And I feel like that's what you should be breeding for, right? As opposed to breeding to chase what everybody else doing or just make money and all that kind of [ __ ] That's not. You don't follow, you build off of what they did. You go, that's really cool. I think I could do something else with that. But you don't just follow. If you follow, you're just always going to be following. Yeah. And there's there's there's peaks and valleys in the way that the the the market too, right? Like. In 2015 16 we were kind of at a low point and then. I got out I got out at 15 for about three months. And I I just find it kind of funny that like some people got in at the high then rode down and were like nope I'm not going to wait for the next you know it happens. It's stock market man same thing. Right? You know what? You know what's funny though is I actually I got out at the end of 14 and I had like three like 1.3 uh OD combos and no one wanted to pay for those. So I made supers that year and between the money of selling all the Kodoms and stuff I had before and those supers was how I had money to invest in the puzzle and stuff. So sometimes you just have to clean house and and restart, you know, start over with the direction you want to go, you. Well, that's that's kind of what I'm doing with this year and I guess next year at the market's the same way. This was the first year that I had like 90% of the animals that I bred I actually made. So, it wasn't like I went and bought the animals and things of that. It was all stuff that I actually started producing myself. So, I'm looking at what is the vision that I'm actually seeing and I'm starting to see it. So, I'm really tickled about where I'm going. But, it's the simple fact of if I'm not going to make that money that I want to make from that animal, then I'm just going to hold it back and look at it. And then whenever the money for that animal will be right, I can have multiple babies I can sell at the same time instead of just the one. Yeah. Yeah. Every single clutch this year so far. That will change here shortly. But every single clutch this year so far, I've made the male and the female. Yeah. Oh, I'm in that I'm in that boat now, too, man. It's very rewarding when your collection is [ __ ] you made. Yeah. All of them. Like Yeah. I'm breeding males. I made I'm I'm still waiting to get to the female part. Oh, yeah. You get there. Wait till you've made the the parents that make the hats to then make the visuals of those, you know. Yeah. I got Granny over here. Yeah. I will say though, it feels good breeding a snake you produced. No, it does. Yeah. That's a great feeling. So far, I've only produced a clutch with a male I produced. I got two girls that'll probably go this year, though. And you remember. When you get that first one, it's 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. That's Yeah. Here's But you get to this point where you've produced 80 90% of your collection and now their collection really starts to take shape and like go the direction that you wanted it to go. And. Right. You know. Then I get to dump on stuff and that's what I'm going to get ready to do. But I mean, that's what we got to do. We got to move on. You're your own best customer. So you get and you get first dibs. You don't get first dibs with anyone else. So it's always it's always great to be like, "Nope, that ain't going nowhere." No, I'm my own worst customer, man. That's for sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's the hard part is I've had years where I hoard everything and then I don't make any money and then.

I've had years where I sell everything and I make money, but now I don't have [ __ ] to progress for next year. So you have to have find a nice balance and it just depends what's going on in your life and what you need to do or not do. But I've had I've learned some lessons of I shouldn't have sold that.

You know, >> I've always prioritized the future over money. And I'm >> that's it. >> Still waiting for it to happen. >> I will. I'm right there with you, bro. I'm right there with you, man. >> It's like, but I love it, man. It's fun.

So, >> and and don't bring it to a show if you don't want to sell it because somebody will try to offer you money for it. I really had to uh fight off some some people on one animal to see her. >> Oh, I've had to fight you off a couple times, bro. >> Yeah, >> damn sure. Rap puzzle. You came over like, "Are you sure?" I'm like, "I'm positive. This thing's coming home with me." >> Yeah.

>> Cool. Well, dude, we done pulled up on a couple hours here now. Uh, so we wrap it up for the night. I know. Will you You've been up basically all day. >> Yeah. I'm like past tired at this point. I'm just like >> the next level like whatever whatever the next level is at >> transcending >> delirious. Yeah. >> Yeah. I appreciate y'all coming on, man. It's been a blast. Amazing show, man. Lots of good information. I definitely have to get everybody back on the show um at some point. >> Oh, yeah. Me, let me know. I'm here. >> For sure. For sure. >> Good time with all you guys and you know, love when we all personally learned a lot and whatnot. Oh yeah. Yeah, I definitely personally learned a lot tonight, so I appreciate you guys very much. >> I hope I had something useful to say. >> Oh, yeah, for sure. For sure.

Kev, you're Arkansas. >> Uh, yes, sir. >> Who else is in Arkansas? >> Uh, there's a few, but I'm not too sure. Too many. I know. Uh, I think maybe three. >> Dave Lavine's Dave Lavine. >> State exotic. He's Arkansas. Are he Arkansas? Is he? Yep. Top corner >> for some reason. >> No bottom. >> I didn't know he was in Arkansas for some reason. I don't know why I did know that.

>> Are you uh are you guys all planning on going? >> Am I froze? >> Froze for a second. Yeah. >> You guys uh you guys are going to Tinley this year? Obviously you guys at Tinley. What about uh >> I won't be at Tinley. >> I'll be there though. Yeah. Unfortunately, I won't be at Tinley either. I just got too much going on in the next month to >> But no, I'll be at Tinley. I haven't I haven't got a chance to see if I can bend Bob's show yet. Whenever I could try to get in there the first year, dude, I got hit with lightning last year. So, I got hit with 20 away from my snake building. I got a tree just got drooed completely by the lightning strike and it threw my entire season off last year. So you talk about I had 19 clutches last year. Typically, I did about 50 to 70. uh tells you kind of how much of a hit it gave me last year. Uh all my girls after June 3rd after that happened, everybody who was either going they reabsorbed if they did if they're at that point they could reabsorb or if they were already at that point too far away they slugged out every single animal after that. So it just dude it was it was a train.

>> We've all had those years man. >> Yeah. Didn't lose nothing. So I'm grateful. So I just kind of skipped the year and just kind of moved on you know. >> Yeah. This are the worst. >> Real shitty for me. Like I'm not >> like I was looking the other day I think like 10 or 12 of my most anticipated clutches girls didn't go because um I think it's because because we moved to stuff in like fall 2023 >> didn't really have no impact in 2023. In 2024 like a lot of my stuff shifted and went later and then this year like I'm just like not getting the clutches. And I think part of it is the move and then also I went on top of it like I was with the ultrasounding and kind of like watching for changes because I had so much other stuff going on. So I just like really took a hit on some of my best clutches this year. Like I'm still having some production and I've been having production like over the last year. >> But it was just like one I got one clutch in the incubator right now and I usually have a full incubator.

>> Well, you'll be all right. just moving the first year breeding. Usually moving will screw that up. But >> yeah, you'll be fine. >> I got a lot of young girls that are like they're they're be their three-year-olds now. Probably 50 or 60 of those that are like ready >> and >> but they're ready with with your temperature and climate. >> I know they >> Yeah. When you when you bring that minute pressure down a little bit, buddy, you're going to notice a little difference. >> Yeah. I notice it moves all the time. >> It could be the other way, though. Yeah. >> Everything goes after a move. I've heard both. So, I don't know. We'll see.

Yes. Uh I I am moving to the States. Yeah. >> Yep. I mean, >> I moved, but I didn't go far. >> Won't be at Tinley because that's right around the time I'll be moving. But if you guys are going to be at Seir Bar, I'm sure I'll see her before then. But, uh, yeah, man. I'm excited. >> Yep. We're all glad you're coming down, man. Thank you. Appreciate that. Appreciate that huge change. But uh >> I want to see I want to see Will with animals, not just Will drinking, running around town. >> I want to see you struggle, too, buddy. Let's Let's see what that Don't worry about that. There's plenty of that, man. >> I want to hear your take on the heat. >> Your take on the heat after the first summer. >> Yeah, >> dude. The first summer is going to kill me. >> Yeah, >> you be coming at a good time now. >> Yeah, you got you got to thin that blood into it. Yeah, ease into it. Winter will feel like nothing, but uh >> Yeah, >> you're gonna be at the beach in sandals and socks and >> shorts. Daytona in August is real. >> Yeah, I bet, man. I bet. I bet the humidity is what I hear is like crazy. >> It's like being in an incubator. Yeah, it's like it's like sitting in a tub of water in the incubator.

>> Hey, no, no joke. No joke. My snake room's in the garage and it's insulated and everything. But at certain times in the summer, it was got so hot I just turned off the incubator and opened the door in there. It would get to >> Yeah. >> 89 or 90 degrees in the snake room. So, I was just like, "Fuck, I'm just turning it off." >> Yeah. >> If my snake room went to 90 degrees, I'd have a [ __ ] panic attack. freaking out, dude. >> I'm I'm all ambient, man. And I just go with the flow of the natural [ __ ] here. You know, >> we have the opposite problem. You guys get hot, we get cold, and we had stom an ice storm this winter that knocked out our power for like five days. >> I had heaters going in the room, the generator going. I had all and I was like two buildings and I'm running back and forth making sure the generators are going and filling them up at 3 in the freaking morning. Like it was just and it was cold. Like it was very >> That was awful. I've seen the pictures. That was awful. >> Yeah, I remember that. That was >> Oh, dude. Everything was coated in ice. Everything. >> Everything. I'm I the morning of the I woke up and there was a huge branch out over my over my driveway and I was able to drive my truck like under it and it's like a maple tree where like the limb is like >> Yeah. >> huge around. And I drove out to go see what the hell was going on. I grabbed a chainsaw. I had to like cut trees up and pushed them off the road just to move the truck forward. And when I got back to come home, that limb was flat on my driveway and I was like, "Holy shit." Like, I'm glad I wasn't underneath that. >> It fell, man. Like, it was a big It would have flattened the vehicle.

>> But, uh, >> yeah. Anyway, probably won't have to deal with that in in Georgia. >> No, no, >> no. >> Hurricanes. You're just gonna have to get excited for hurricanes. Yeah. >> So, do you like >> you get hit like hard with those or like I know Florida for sure, but >> Florida for sure. Georgia usually >> once they start hitting land, they start breaking up pretty decent. >> It's like a just a really good like rain. >> Rainly tornadoes. Just depends on which side of the storm you're on. >> Yeah, tornadoes could be a problem. Yeah. >> Trees fall down and roof shingles fly off most of the time. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Well, >> we're conditioned to hurricanes here. >> Yeah. We're conditioned to four feet of snow, >> blizzards, >> you know. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah. Well, I'm sure it'll be fine. We're uh >> Yeah, you're lucky. >> Anyway, appreciate appreciate everything. Thanks for having me on, Mike and Barry and Kevin, Brian, and uh excited to be down there with with all you guys. And we'll uh >> Yeah, >> glad to have you, man. >> Send me a box. >> We'll catch up soon. >> Send you a box of puzzles. >> Get you some gifts. Housewarming gift, bud. Yeah, >> you go now. >> I'll think about it. >> Little little little easier to get your animals now. >> Much much much easier. You're gonna have them next day. Next. >> I think I >> I think I had to sit on an animal for you for like a year almost, >> dude. All winter. >> Oh, yeah. I got the tinley, right? October tinley. And we could till like April. >> That's That's how I operate. Like I hatch animals in November and sell them knowing I can't ship them till April. >> Oh, that sucks. It It feels so much better to get rid of them right away once. >> Sure. I mean, I don't have I don't want to them for six months. Like say it's good for the It's good for the buyer, >> right? >> Well, yeah. Everyone gets their animals. They're 400 grams already. But like it's, you know, it's uh it I mean I'm excited to to just be there, be able to [ __ ] be part of the market, >> be able to vent, >> see everybody more often than I do, you know, >> just it's gonna be fun. >> Yeah. Pretty soon we'll all just be going Will's Will's taking all the business. >> Can you Yeah. No, I don't think you have to worry about that, dude. There's enough for everybody. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, plenty. Plenty.

>> Cool. All right, guys. Uh, yeah, man. Appreciate y'all coming on. That's going to do it for tonight. Uh, big shout out to the replay gang. Make sure y'all make sure when y'all come through, y'all leave a comment gang. Let us know what you thought about the show, man. Big shout out to the audio only gang. But that's going to do it for tonight for Clutch Conversations. I'm Mike. This is the illustrious panel. The lovely lady behind the scenes is the car. Thank y'all for coming out. Be blessed. Peace.

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