"Cut Her OFF!" How to Know if Your "So-Called Friend" is Back Stabbing & Using You | Peter Salerno

A female narcissist doesn't have girl code or woman code. They are the code. They get to make it up as they go.

The narcissistic person is going to try to pin the friends against one another. So, they're going to say something inaccurate to one friend, hoping that they're not going to go tell the other friend. And so, now everyone feels like they're on the inside, but what's really happened is the person has antagonized everyone, put them at odds with one another. Just be prepared. It's emotional blackmail.

That's the power of a narcissistic friend because what they're doing is >> whether it's a psychopath like Elaine Maxwell, a covert narcissistic mother or a manipulative friend that is deliberately sabotaging you, why do we end up trusting other women so deeply that we miss the signs? Sometimes from a cultural perspective, a lot of these traits that we see in narcissism and psychopathy, they're they're typically uh it's like we default or we attribute them to like masculine traits. >> And if you're not aware of that in a particular circle, you won't notice or even suspect that somebody might make up or that fuel the engine of narcissism can be present in any social system. And the ones who have it um often times they do a incredible job of concealing the intentionality behind that trait, you know, the motivations for it and things like that. So, if a friend or if somebody in in your circle is superficially like just exceeding your expectations or even just maintaining your expectations, you're just not going to think to even consider that they might be up to no good. >> But what's interesting is when it comes to a man, I think sometimes you will. It's like, "This is a bit too good. Let me see. let me spot the signs. Let me see if there's red flags. But when it's a friend, you go, "Oh my god, she's a great friend. She had my back." >> So, this is going to be really important. We see some women able to adopt um a superficially agreeable temperament in certain social contexts. So, that this this grandiosity is flying very low beneath the radar. It's not overt. It's not obvious. And so there are people who use gender stereotypes and gender expectations to exploit others within those circles. It's like they're blending in so well to it that you wouldn't even expect that they would be doing anything other than collaborating, cooperating. And so if you don't see anything overtly taking place like overt insults or overt betrayals, you often think that it might be maybe exclusive to just men's circles where there's aggressive sort of stature or posturing. But all of those types of things like aggression and everything, they can be very covert. And so it's very easy to imagine that somebody is just not capable of it. >>

Okay. So, I'd love to go a little deeper now because I have never done an episode on the female narcissist or this female psychopath or any female having a personality disorder. And my community have asked me over and over again to really go into friendships. And so, I'd really love to dive into the friendship thing specifically on the signs that maybe we see but we can't articulate. So, I've got number one where they may weaponize your secrets. So, she uses what she tells you against you later. So something that's really important to understand from the get-go when we're talking about narcissistic people is they don't believe in equality. Okay? So any friendship that's established with a narcissist there it's not being established on the basis of mutual reciprocity or mutual equality. So right there anything that you give them or anything they give you is in fact a weapon. There's these goals that the person has. The narcissistic female in this case she has a goal for the friendship. Okay. The goal is not to collaborate. It's not to problem solve. It's not to even connect or attach in a meaningful way. If it's truly narcissism, then what they're going to do is they're going to arrange this relationship where there's one person who has subjective freedom, that's the narcissist, and then the other person is going to have to be an object. They're going to be um subjugated. They're going to be under the control of the the narcissistic person. So when it comes to telling secrets or revealing secrets or keeping secrets, that's one of the most vulnerable things you can do for to another human being. So narcissistic people will often reveal secrets to you right off the get-go to disarm you. >>

You feel important now. This person has confided in me. They trust me. It's a fainted confiding. >> Oh. >> Uhhuh. >> Okay. So you'll relax into safety so they can more easily exploit you. They're trying to pull information from you immediately because as soon as they have information that matters to you, that makes you feel vulnerable, that could potentially be used as a threat against you, they have an advantage. You know, secrets are being exchanged, things like that, vulnerability. But in reality, the the operating system is motivated for a completely different purpose. And it's important for people to know that those individuals exist. And often times in the beginning, they don't take up much space in your life. So, you're kind of inviting them in even more and more and more, not realizing how further down um and deep into the the pit of of potential destruction you're you're you're going. >>

That's part of my problem when it comes to this because I think if you're a female and a girl asks you to go out and you start sharing stories, like it's a very different emotional feel when you're with your girlfriend, she's invited you out, you're having a couple of drinks, you're sharing these back and forth stories or maybe heartbreak or something traumatic that happened. There's something about I wouldn't think twice about that. But if I was on a date and a guy gave me a drink and he's like starts asking me about my past, I'm going to be a little hesitant. So even when it comes to this one thing about weaponizing secrets, if a woman's sharing naturally as a woman, you want to reciprocate so they don't feel alone, >> right? >> How do you make sure that you don't share with the wrong person? Interestingly though with narcissistic uh people there there's something so captivating and charismatic about them that you you actually feel like compelled to share. >> So when you're feeling that a little too strongly in the beginning like I wasn't planning on airing everything and now all of a sudden we in therapy we call that transference and counter transference. It's these emotions that you start to transfer on to the other person. They might remind you of somebody that's safe or familiar and sometimes they play with that. they mimic and mirror you so that you trust them quickly. I think that one of the most important things you have to look out for is a narcissist will exploit that agreeableness and that collaboration and and they'll weaponize it. So unfortunately I'm I'm the bearer of bad news when I say this. >> You have to develop a degree of skepticism with new people. >> It's not cynicism or pessimism, >> but it's actually an optimistic healthy sense of skepticism. I think people very too often don't want to view relationships as like interview processes or they don't want to view friendships as um something where they have to make an assessment. But that's really the best way to protect yourself. I mean, you can be open enough with somebody and authentic enough without giving them ammunition that they can use against you. And so one of the things that I think needs to be introduced is the possibility that yeah, some of these individuals, even though there's, like you said, there's girl code and you don't typically assume someone's going to be having malicious intentions when they first meet you and when they first start sharing. >> You have to wonder if maybe they do. >> Just just keep it in the back of your mind. It doesn't need to rule you or govern govern all your behavior, but the the possibility that someone might be intentionally deceiving you from the beginning needs to be adopted. >>

All right. Healthy skepticism. All right. Um Okay. Another one that I think a lot of us women get trapped in in scenarios. Oh, this one got punched. The passive aggressive jokes. So, she says something hurtful then tells you that you're actually too sensitive. So, talk to me about that and underlying resentment, jealousy, things like that. So, um, >> all right, guys. We'll be right back with Dr. Peter. But real quick, if you've ever gotten value from a single Women of Impact episode, I ask you for one simple favor. Please go ahead and smash that subscribe button or use the QR code right here. One click to subscribe is a calling card to all women that this is the place to build your confidence. So, please do go ahead and show the love by subscribing. Now, back to the episode. So talk to me about that and underlying resentment, jealousy, things like that. >>

So um there's a distinction between passive aggression and something called covert aggression. I think that's most of the time what people are dealing with. >> Wow. What's the difference? >> A covert aggressor is packing all of the energy of like a physical blow into a statement or an emotional state and you're feeling it. >> Oh, can you give me an example? Well, like you could be um preparing for to go out with your girlfriends, let's say, and everybody's having a really great time and everyone feels really good and then all of a sudden somebody says something like hinting at maybe you've worn that too many times in a small period of time and now you're completely you've lost your confidence, you've lost your footing, you feel like you're secondguessing yourself. That's a covert aggression tactic. There's nothing passive about it, right? It's actually intended to completely derail you and get you wondering and and second-guessing yourself. And and the the motivation behind that, you said it earlier, is envy. Narcissistic people are extremely envious of others. Even when they don't have any reason to be, they have this mentality where they have to spoil it for somebody else. >> They can't just let the other person have it. So, a lot of what's driving this is envy. If you look too good or feel too good, they don't share in that joy. What's interesting as you were talking about that, I was just thinking about the difference of a female saying to you, >> "Oh, you got your haircut, right?" Where it's like they're not complimenting, they're not insulting, but in their tone and everything in their body language is like, "Your hair looks shitty." And they do it on purpose so that you feel shitty. >> Exactly. >> When a guy does that, you start to feel insecure. He doesn't find me attractive anymore. When a woman in your friend group does that, I'm speaking in real time now, so help me think through this. It's almost like you get embarrassed that it's not just this one friend that made this comment. If you're embarrassed, everyone saw it. Now you think everyone thinks that. >> That's the power of a narcissistic friend >> because what they're doing is if they say something, they've already maneuvered and arranged it with the rest of the people that you're gonna believe them and not you. So, no one's even gonna question their their their comment or their observation. and it's just going to be taken as like by gospel truth. >> Oh yes. >> So there is truth to that that the other people in the the fan club or the herum might might be starting to change their perception of you if this particular friend says something like that. So that's not in your head. >> Why? >> I mean they really are they really are doing that. They're starting to mold and and and morph into seeing you and perceiving you the way that person wants them to. Right. >> And that becomes I think one of the hardest things for a lot of women in girl groups. It's the poison ivy. Right. >> Right. And so you to your point, it's like this one person, toxic friend, whether it's a narcissist or worse, has been maneuvering people over time and you don't see it, but you feel it. >> Yes. And so that's part of that is the the triangulation. >> So everybody So each person is a favorite in their own right privately with the narcissistic friend, but they're not a favorite in the group. >> Oh. So what in the triangulation basically >> um the narcissistic person is going to try to pin the friends against one another. So they're going to say something inaccurate to one friend hoping that it is um received with loyalty so they're not going to go tell the other friend. And so now they have this >> everyone feels like they're on the inside >> but what's really happened is the person has antagonized everyone put them at odds with one another but the loyalty is strengthening to the narcissistic person. and they do this and I this is a absolutely um it's a conscious uh goaloriented interpersonal uh tactic. It's not unconscious. These people are just doing this because they're insecure and they need all the attention. Sometimes that's true, but often times these people find reward in being on top and the only way they know how is to be dominant. And this does happen in um female friend circles too because >> a female narcissist doesn't have girl code or woman code. They they are the code. They get to make it up as they go, right? They're eternally presently rewriting reality to fit their their needs and their wants and desires. So >> you're going to see this a lot. You're going to see a lot of people feeling like they're at odds with one another without even communicating because there's all these seeds have been planted. >> Yeah. you really struck me with that loyalty thing that your friend they go to you and you're loyal so you don't say anything and that's part of their strategy. Oh my god that hit me so hard because literally this is exactly what happened to me. I won't name names but one of my friends we were had a friend group and I was trying not to get involved because I'm like look if you guys have beef between each other as my homies I'm going to support you both. I love you both. How can I be there for you? Of course I'm loyal. I'm not going to repeat what you say to me even if I'm part of the girl group. like I've got loyalty to each friend individually. >> Yeah. >> And then of course like 3 or 4 months later, one of my friends broke down and she showed me all these emails from the friend that I was loyal to. And I couldn't believe it. I was like, she wrote that, >> right? >> But my friend didn't tell me because a she was trying to not gossip about the girl. I was being loyal to the girl. And so the girl being the narcissist ended up screwing us all over because she was placating us all behind the scenes. >> Right? So here's something I want to say that's really important to that. That doesn't mean you have a loyalty problem. >> Oh, thank you. >> What it means is you have to protect your loyalty because even though it's an incredible trait, you can easily get exploited with it if you're not, you know, assuming that there's possibly someone who would be willing to exploit it. So, a lot of people, especially women, sadly, they feel like they have to do something about their traits that have been exploited. I'm overly sensitive. I'm overly reactive. I'm too loyal. I'm too trusting. I need to balance myself out. Not if you have good friends because no one will exploit those traits. >> Right? If it's you're questioning this loyalty after somebody exploited it, it's because it was exploited. It's not cuz it's pathological or there's something wrong with it or you need to be less loyal or more hardened. You just need to be a little more strategic at who you're going to let into your inner circle. Um, narcissists though notoriously steal your self-esteem, too. They have a way of taking the good feelings out of you. So, your your self-perception and your self-image after you've encountered one is often that you feel like you have some work to do on your end. And so again, they're going to take something that's in incredibly valuable um like loyalty, and they're going to make you think that there's something wrong with you for having it in the first place. >>

What about somebody that's a little even more insidious than a narcissist? So, let's say borderline or psychopath when it comes to girl groups, how would that sort of thing transpire? Well, what starts to make it a little bit more or a lot more rather malignant is when it starts to move into exploitation and conning of a strategic manner. So, not opportunistic but preferential targeting and and people do that in friend circles too. So, you have to look out for women who are in a friend circle who would be willing to like uh essentially destroy you if it means that they can get away from something unscathed. When it gets to the relationship aspects, you're going to see a lot of parasitic um tendencies, you're going to see a lot of taking without giving, a lot of accusations of betrayal when you don't follow suit. Exactly. And then sadly when it's psychopathy or something that's a little bit more callous, like really lacking in conscience, you're going to see that there's an expectation for you to violate your own value system and that you're not supposed to complain about that or confront it in any way, shape, or form or you're going to be even in even more trouble. And with that, there's a lot more risk of public retaliatory things. So, defamation of character, smear campaigns, things that could really cost you not just your feelings, but maybe your job, maybe your a relationship, maybe a close friendship, maybe an alliance with family members. I mean, these people can really infiltrate your life to the point where the people that you trust the most are no longer believing you. So, it gets it gets really extreme when we enter into the the psychopathy realm or the antisocial realm. And understandably because there's been so many violations against women that women are like, "We're all we have. >> We have to stick together. We have to believe each other." So, there's this intrinsic loyalty to your female group because you do need each other. You do need to rely on each other for things that you should exclude men from in a lot of ways. >> But let's say that there's somebody who's infiltrated that system. I mean, it's the least likely place oftentimes that you'd expect somebody to infiltrate, to exploit. And and sadly, if your audience is saying, "Well, what about this?" Because this happened with my own mother or this happened with my best friend that I grew up with >> and there's all this inherent guilt of should I even be viewing them that way? She she's not the enemy. She's my friend, >> right? So there's there's going to be a lot of cognitive dissonance >> uh when you're trying to understand if if this might be the case in a friendship >> when you feel like a friend has betrayed you. >> Mhm. >> A lot of the time I'll go, is this just me, Lisa? Is it something that maybe I'm just feeling right now because I'm sad I'm on my period? Like I always try to like take a holistic view instead of like a laser focused view. Now the problem is though in those moments, let's say I come to the conclusion like maybe she did use you. I start now to reflect back of all the things that I did for them and all the things they did for me. And then you start to feel the shame and guilt of, well, hang on a minute. You're not a good friend because you're now you're doing it because they need to reciprocate. But did you do it for that or did you do it out of genuine kindness? That messes with my head. >>

Well, what's actually happening is you're picking up on the the absence of mutual reciprocity. But if you have a conscience, what you typically do is you start to judge yourself. Yes. criticize yourself. I could have done something a little bit better on my end. Um, or how am I any different than them? Because I want I have needs too that I want them to meet. There's nothing wrong with having needs in a relationship as long as there's relationship agreements. One of the agreements has to be mutual reciprocity, right? Again, because there's no equality in a narcissistic system. You can't expect them to be to treat you the way you've treated them. But what they do along the way is they superficially do things that seem like their kind gestures or their evidence that they did help you. Um, if you really analyze it, it's probably there's not a lot of weight or depth to those things that they did. They're just sort of these gestures which they use as evidence. Well, see, I did do this for you. You remember like I talked to you for two hours that one day when you were just crying over over whatever. Yeah, that might be true. But you don't know how they internalize that experience of you. You don't know how much it meant to them. They may have gone through the motions of loyalty without having any loyalty. >> Or the one that I've heard, maybe it's just in my position, but like I posted on social media and thanked you. >> Yeah. That means that doesn't mean anything. >> Yeah. Like that's called friendship, >> right? And they they value that because that's something that people can see, right? So they invest, you know, narcissists are constantly invested in their image at the expense of any authenticity. So, as long as it looks like they thanked you, which now there's evidence cuz it's on social media, that should matter to you more than anything according to them. >> Yeah, the evidence. You're so right. Another few things actually we got that I think a lot of us women miss is um the performative friendship. So, we were kind of talking about it was like to the world, you seem like an amazing friend. >> Yeah. >> And yet you feel there's cognitive dissonance between the way other people perceive that friend towards you and how you feel about that friend. >> Right. So, if your initial impression of somebody is that they were kind, they were loving, they um they were sweet, they were generous, they went out of their way, they told you secrets right off the bat, they seemed to trust you early on, every time they act contrary to that, your mind is actually going to create a confirmation bias and go back to the original prior information >> and it's going to erase or edit the inconsistency. And so narcissistic friends, they do the love bombing phase even with friends in the sense that they they seduce you into holding an ideal image of them. So once they misbehave, your prior knowledge actually biases you towards seeing them in a good light. >> And they're doing this from the beginning, by the way. So you're not even aware that you're already hooked or hijacked by this process. It's not exactly like an addiction. Um I like to make a distinction. you you're not addicted to a person like this, but they can hijack your system in a way where you do their bidding. And one of the ways you do their bidding is you you self-reflect and correct their mistakes. >> Oh, say more about that. Like what? So, give me an example. >> Kind of what you were saying earlier when there's something going wrong in the relationship, even if you can pinpoint that their contribution, you start to introspect and try to figure out how you made it happen. M >> you know maybe if I would have done something different they would have done something different cuz you're trying to confirm that original image you have of them. >> Right. >> Right. >>

Coming up. >> Just be prepared. If you're really dealing with a narcissistic or psychopathic person, the smear campaign begins like from the get- go. >> All right, let's get real. How many times have you been out starving, running from one thing to the next to the next, and your only options are just straight up freaking junk? like gas station snacks, sugary bars, or something that just leaves you feeling like absolutely crap 20 minutes later. Well, homie, if you're trying to build confidence, if you're trying to get energy and actually show up for your freaking life, what you put in your body actually really does matter. That's why I'm obsessed with Paleo Valley Beef Sticks. These are literally 100% grass-fed. They're super clean, no weird additives, and actually packed with protein that fuels you instead of slows you down. So, you don't have to compromise. And right now, you can get 30 beef sticks for just $36. So, next time you're running out the door, you've got something that actually supports your goals and tastes freaking delicious. So, go and smash the link below and get stocked up right now. When it comes to the cognitive dissonance though, a lot of time you make it about maybe I'm going crazy, maybe I'm misheard, maybe I'm miss saw. And so you're you're rewriting the accuracy of the story. >> So you're saying like when the friends come in and and confirm the narcissist side, >> right? Yes. >> The narcissist narrative. So a you're putting yourself as a responsible party like I do. Then your friend is telling a narrative towards your other friend and now everybody is believing one narrative, >> right? >> The cognitive dissonance for you. Do you then buy into the narrative of the cult? >> Yeah. I mean that's actually how cults operate. You can start adopting a new narrative um based on the influence or the pressure of the system, you know. So, another thing at stake here, it's not just about getting out of the clutches of the narcissist. They have a they have a herum. >> So, now your your friends that actually are genuinely loyal to you are no longer genuinely loyal to you because they can't be loyal to both you and this other person, >> right? And so yeah, when the message gets reinforced to the entire group and even the people who still do care about you think I think you're misinterpreting what happened um your reality confidence just gets obliterated and now you're you're actually it's like a new belief system has been installed in you and now you're seeing the world through distorted lenses. >>

So the cult thing hits me very well. Talk to me about how the traps of a cult actually do echo in a female group. >> Well, so a lot of people think there's this horrible cult leader and if you just get rid of the cult leader then the problems will go away. But the but the cult leader has done a really good job of of creating followers that are unconditionally loyal. >> So now those people they also have a sense of belonging in the group too. They have to agree with the with the leader so to speak in order to get the benefits of the group too. So now there's two things that are motivating them. They want to stay in the group and they also want to stay on the good graces of the the leader. So you're dealing with that twofold now. You have the leader message has now been embedded in the thinking structure of the whole group. So now there's only one reality, >> right? >> It's the narcissists or the the leader reality. So that can feel like a double betrayal because now your other friends, even if they mean well, they're subjugated too. They're under control and so they're not actually thinking clearly either. That can be a very hopeless situation because you feel like you have no ally, you know. >> Yeah. I had a psychologist on my show and she was telling me her own personal story and she said my uh exhusband I believe um was definitely clinically narcissist potentially worse. But she said when I just saw all the signs he was cheating on me, abusing me like physically, emotionally, mentally, everything. She's like when I finally spoke up and told all my friends, no one believed me. Everyone took his side. >> Yeah. She's like, "Lisa, I lost all of my girlfriends." >> Right. That's very common. Sadly, it's not only common in friend circles. It's f it's it's common in um like more extended circles, even in professional circles where >> you could go to therapy and your therapist can be um taken over by the narcissistic person's narrative, too. Oh, wow. >> Where you you you seem like you're reporting something to them that's crazy. And so they think, well, maybe you're codependent. Maybe you have an insecure attachment and this has nothing to do with this person and we need to we need to keep the focus on you. You're here. That's a another form of invalidation where the the you know people who are entrusted to your care are now, you know, second guessing you. So it it can extend and make you feel like you're going crazy. >> Yeah. The therapist one really gets me because you expect them to be very knowledgeable about what narcissistic behavior looks like and manipulation tactics and they'll be able to see it when it's actually happening. >> Well, but a lot of therapists conceptualize narcissism from um a place of insecurity and low self-esteem. So, they see the offender as a victim >> and they try to explain to you. People only do this when they're trying to compensate. So, the more secure you are, the less they're going to project on to you. And sometimes that's not true. Sometimes these people, they almost delight in this type of behavior because it gets them everything they want. >> Oh, right. >> You know, it secures their resources for them. It's like a social strategy. It's not always um related to defense mechanisms. >>

So, do you think going back to the scenario where the woman speaks up, hey, look, that man has been abusing me and no one believes you. And they will take the man's side. Is that out of cognitive dissonance for them that they're like, but I've seen him. He's really nice. I saw him walk a grandma across the street, so you must be wrong. Or is it they bought into the cult mentality where it's like, but everyone believes it, so I can't even possibly acknowledge that. >> It could be both. Both of those things can get reinforced in a in a like a friendship circle. >> Um, or even just a like a group of like three people, for example. >> That really messes with my head. I'm going to be honest because I'm such a girl that I'm like, if my homie tells me that her man has been abusing her, I got her back. like we are going protection mode. What can I do? How can I show up for you? I'm not like h not sure if I believe you or not. >> That is so hard, isn't it? That's a terrible position to be in because on the one hand, if the person is authentically sharing something that happened to them, um what kind of friend would you be if you didn't support them? >> Right? you kind of have to analyze the friendship overall and say like how many times has this person um confided in me and it it's proved to be true sometimes allowing for the possibility that people make stuff up because it benefits them to do so and sometimes it it benefits them for their personal circle you know to think that you know so one example of this is that actually my my wife shared with me is that she had a friend that would want her to cover for her when she was cheating Oh, cheating on her husband. >> Yes. >> Oh. Oh. Did your wife do it? >> No. >> Oh, >> they're not friends anymore because of it, though. >> Wow. Tell me more. >> According to that friend, this was an ultimate betrayal on my wife's part. >> That she would have >> She broke girl code. >> Oh, snap. She broke girl code. >> Yeah. So, my wife was accused of breaking girl code for not being willing to cover up the affair. >> Right. >> Wow. So, your wife was just like, I'm not willing to do it. >> I mean, it was harder than that, but my wife has a lot of integrity. So, it was like, I'm not going to do it, but it's going to kill me. It's going to devastate me if this person doesn't want to be my friend anymore. But, you know, the integrity mattered more. Like, I I'm not I don't want to be in a position where I have to lie for someone if I'm confronted. And now I have to carry these secrets and they're not good secrets. This is just I'm going to commit this offense and I want to cover my tracks and if you are my friend, you're going to cover it with me or you're you're betraying me. So, the the narrative was framed as a betrayal. damn as a betrayal. I'm so proud of your wife. I don't even know her, but good for her. I think if I was in that position, it would be very hard because I'd be like, "Oh my god, am I breaking girl code?" Like, she'd definitely mess with my head. >> Um, but then I'd be like, "Lisa, who are you fundamentally? What is your value system? My value system is I don't lie. I don't deliberately do anything that's going to hurt another human being." And so, if I'm lying, you were literally helping her hurt her husband by cheating on him. That's also how you know that the relationship is authentic because no good friend would ever ask that of you, right? >> That's such a good way of putting it. Like if they were a good friend, they wouldn't ask me to betray my own values. >> No, they would. I mean, they would typically good friends share your value system. You don't have to convince them of that. That's why you come together. >>

And actually, one of the things that you've spoken about is um the identity erosion. So talk to me about that. >> Yeah. So, if you're somebody who has like a pretty um firm sense of self, like a self-image, that's going to get eroded throughout the process of a narcissistic relationship with a friend. >> Um the reason for that is because all of the things that they intentionally idealized or mirrored for you in the beginning, they they're actually devaluing secretly and they're going to eventually spoil or you forget who you are. or at least you question it enough that the foundation gets very shaky. So there's a lot of identity disturbance in the process of this relationship. A lot of people that I work with, one of the first things that they say is, "I don't know who I am anymore." >> What's interesting when it comes to females as well, as you were describing now, is like when it's with one guy, you're like, "Okay, this one guy doesn't like me." But your friends group, it's like you have multiple people. So that identity erosion isn't just with one person. The identity erosion when it comes to girls is like there's 10 people >> that now you've got an identity erosion uh connection with, >> right? Our nervous systems are interconnected with one another, right? So it's that you're like put between a rock and a hard place. It's like everybody's telling you, no, this is this is the way you need to start viewing yourself now. This is it's changed. You need to come on board with this. It's very difficult for somebody to just stand their ground and say, "Well, I know that all of those individuals that I trust, you know, with my life are wrong." That's very rare that that's going to happen. >> Yeah. And then even kind of when it goes to people around you, I mentioned Galain Maxwell at the beginning. Like that is one of those things where I think >> I wouldn't have doubted her, right? >> I wouldn't have thought twice. And I don't know, and help me think through this as a woman. When a woman is very powerful, I admire her. I'm like, "Wow, she had to do so much to climb the ladder." Like, I have so much admiration for a woman that's had to go through hard stuff to create success. And so, with someone like Gileain Maxwell, the power element of, wow, she's done such a great job would be another thing. So, not only is she female that I end up thinking I would trust her more, but now there's the power element. So, we want to be careful not to take like one success formula and then like like put it across the board for who they are personally. She may have been very ambitious. She may have been able to know how to get things done in ways that other women couldn't. And that is actually admirable objectively. >> Oh. Uhhuh. >> Right. But we don't want to make the mistake of thinking that in addition to that ambition that there is the same level of agreeableness, the same level of conscientiousness, the same level of empathy as there are in all women. >> There might be a trait in that particular profile that sucks the life out of empathy and compassion. And and so her ambition is admirable, but it's maybe it's a bit callous. It's a bit cut through. >> Oh, right. >> Maybe it's Mchavelian or Right. The Maxwell case is a very interesting one because it's um it's pretty we want to believe we we want it to be unbelievable just how many lines she was able to cross against women specifically against women. I could justify it if it was against men. Men mistreated her and she's going to not trust them and they have what's coming to them. Easy, easy. But when it's against women, when she's when she's that predatory, where she's actively going out and drawing them in to destroy them without any remorse or guilt, I mean, that's terrifying. But there's variations of that in friendship circles that I think people should be aware of that this person's callousness is a little bit too much for my friend circle. And so, you do need to kind of, I think, update your assessments. And some relationships unfortunately might be outgrown if you start to really assess them, >> you know. >> Um, all right. I'd love to now move on to more of the dark >> sort of traits. Like we haven't gone dark enough. >> Um, because these are the ones where it's not even that you don't see them. They literally strategically operating to work behind your back in order to manipulate you or trap you and you just don't see it coming. And these are the ones I think sometimes are the hardest to deal with. So, you mentioned it slightly earlier about smear campaigns. >> Just for the record, the smear campaign begins before you meet. >> Oh, before you meet. >> It doesn't happen after they're disappointed with you or after you've let them down according to their standards. Cuz part of grandiosity, part of the trait is a condescending attitude toward others in general. So, even if they're ingratiating you, meaning they're they're trying to win favor, they're secretly already slandering you behind your back to somebody. that's how they gain the advantage, you know. So, there's this idea that it comes later. Just be prepared. If you're really dealing with a narcissistic or psychopathic person, the smear campaign begins like from the get-go. What that essentially does for them is it makes them like the the gatekeeper of of the the official narrative, right? So, the smear campaign isn't just because they're jealous or envious. That's part of it, but a lot of it too is to establish dominance in the group, right? Everybody's going to listen to me and everyone's going to have an inventory of everyone else's flaws from the beginning. And then I'm the person who is like the the holder of the secrets, right? Um it kind of reminds me of like that burn book in that movie Mean Girls. >> Oh, yeah. >> Like they have it all, right? They're they're the gatekeeper of it, so they have all the secrets. Now, even if they didn't meet those people personally, all the other women in the group who read the book, it's informing their understanding of all those people. They maintain the rumors, they maintain the reputation as given by the person who authored the book, right? >> Oh, that's interesting. >> So, there's a lot more social strategy to the smear campaign than just I don't I'm envious of someone and I want to, you know, spoil them or talk bad. It's not just that it makes them feel better. It goes far beyond that. I mean, it's very strategic. it it maintains their their um authority and dominance in the structure. >>

Why is it that we believe the first person that says it? So like with a smear campaign, they've almost built up a catalog of all the negative things so that if you come out and you speak, no one believes you because they're like, "Hang on a minute." For the last 3 months, I've actually been hearing something completely different. So, you believe the person that speaks first >> because they've done a good job of establishing that your prior image of them, the representation you hold of them in your mind is um like bulletproof. So, if they're saying something, it's you have to believe it because they've already established that they're the type of person that would not lie to you, >> right? So, it's this implicit trust that I think actually gets um imbued in you even at a at an unconscious level >> much more than just the words they use. It's their body language. It's their their their mannerisms. It's their charisma. It's the way they relate to you. It all feels really good and warm and trustworthy. >> I remember hearing overhearing conversations like that when I was in a relationship with someone like this. And sometimes it almost looked like they were doing it cuz they were bored. But they would call friends and they'd go in another room but talk loud enough for me to hear. And they would just >> an ex-girlfriend of yours. >> Yeah. And they would just say things to their girlfriends >> about you. >> About me, but about the other friends, too. Like it was the weirdest thing. Like they would say, "Oh, I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't trust so and so to to do this. They can't do anything to save their lives, you know, and then they go and tell that person something." And then they go and tell that person something. And they're just basically just talking [ __ ] about everyone in the group. And again, there's that loyalty component. People are afraid to betray the loyalty because they have integrity. This was said to me for good reason. They're trusting me with this. You don't see it as a smear campaign. You see it as that friend trusts me this much. I'm their I I'm their sounding board. It's pretty malicious how far it goes. I mean, what they're willing to use you for, you know, >> in your situation when you heard your ex-girlfriend go into another room and talk badly, would you associate that with like a personality trait and therefore she does it to you as well or did you cognitively separate the two? >> Well, the trait that she was expressing is is called antagonism, right? Antagonism is in the intentional putting people at odds with one another. >> So, but who's the common ground? Who's the who's the foundation? If everybody's at odds with one another, it's it's them, right? >> So, when you heard her saying it about her friends though, did you associate that that she would then do it to you too? >> Um, no, not necessarily. >> That's the reason why I asked that is I don't think friends do either. Like if someone says to you something about a friend, >> maybe I should, but my mind doesn't automatically go like, "Was she saying this to me? What is she saying?" >> When you're under subjugation, which it means you're under the control, you're minimizing so many offenses. You're giving them the benefit of the doubt so many times. I mean, you're assuming that if they did do that, there's a good reason for it. I mean, maybe they were threatened or maybe they were wounded or maybe it's their childhood trauma. Maybe they're just adjusting, you know, maybe they're stressed. I mean, you come up with all these excuses and explanations for why they're not doing it on purpose. Um, and why they wouldn't do it to you. >> So, we're going to look for everything we can to make ourselves the exception. That's another thing narcissists do right away. They reveal that they're willing to break their own rules, like in the flattery phase. Like maybe they call out to work early to spend time with you and you that looks like a massive gesture to you of how much they want to spend time with you. What they're telling you is, I'm going to violate my own commitments, so I'm going to violate yours, too. One day, I'm going to expect you to leave work early when I ask you to. And if you don't, you're not as good of a friend as I was, cuz now you didn't ask them to. So, that's where the narrative gets destroyed. Right. That's what I was going to ask. >> They volunteered that fake virtue >> and now they expect you to

reciprocate. >> Oh, god. That type of reciprocation where it's like you feel so guilty if you don't. That feels like a very strategic. >> It's premeditated long game. Absolutely. And a lot of people do the long con. It's called preferential targeting versus opportunistic. >> So they'll find you not just romantically, but they'll find you a valuable friend and then they're going to exploit you. >> I pulled that face cuz that felt too relatable, unfortunately. >> I'm sorry.

>> Um yeah. Um okay, so then we'll go to Okay, this one hit me. Oh my god. I think every woman's going to feel this. social exclusion engineering where it's like, "Oh, I'm so sorry. I just forgot to invite you." >> The No, you don't. Who forgets that stuff, right? No, that's covert aggression. >> That's what a covert aggressor does. That the not invitation obvious oftenimes gets um framed as passive aggression. It's a it's a very uh premeditated active form of aggression. It's just concealed because of the the plausible deniability. I forgot. Can't remember everything. and you know what a stressful week I've had. >> Oh yes. How are you supposed to respond to that? Because again, I would be like, "Oh my god." Okay. If I was a good friend, I would be very empathetic about what a hard week they have. I know that they had a hard day at work. Totally. I get it. No worries. And now I feel shitty about myself. >> Well, you typically don't feel shitty about yourself when someone is making you feel safe. >> Oh, that's good. >> You know, you got to wonder, okay, why do I feel shitty about this? If it was an honest mistake, I shouldn't feel shitty. I would give him the benefit of the doubt. Like that could happen, right? We could forget. >> But what if it's let's say for instance as like I'm just going to be honest. When I was very young, I was very insecure. Like if a friend didn't like me, I thought it meant everything about me. So sometimes in those situations, how do you know if it's just not an insecurity or wound of yours? >> So you got to look for the pattern converging. Meaning you got to look to see in this relationship context, how many times do I feel this way? And if it's not happening in other contexts, if this is if it's exclusive to this context, it might be something that's specific to this relationship dynamic. >> Oh, right. >> Uhhuh. >> Because if it's coming out everywhere, yes, I'm sorry, but you might need to talk to someone about that. If it's only happening in one relationship, you you should be questioning why only in that dynamic do I feel this way. You know, >> I feel like you're a bit of my therapist today. Everything you're saying a lot is like really hitting me because you're so right. It's I hardly ever have that feeling with my girlfriends except for one person. >> Oh, well, there you go. >> Huh. >> Yeah. So, pay attention to that. And And you ask what to do with it. You don't immediately write them off. You just note it. You collect the data and then you base the new data from that event, not from the when everything was peachy and wonderful and and together because now you have new information. You have to update. >> Yes. >> Cognitive dissonance doesn't allow you to update beliefs and update evidence because narcissists thrive when you're in a state of uncertainty or ambiguity. So if you're going back and forth, is it me? Is it them? Did I get this right? That's the sweet spot for a narcissistic relationship is you to be uncertain. >> Yeah. And I often I think a lot of women will revert to the means of that initial feeling. So it's like that whether it's a friendship or a relationship that love bombing phase. But they were like that. I remember when they said I was their best friend. I remember when they showed up for me that one time that I needed them. >> They were doing that with all the other people in the group too. >> Winning favor behind your back. Everyone felt like the favorite. Everyone had a secret no one else knew. Everyone knew something about them that you know was coveted information that made them second in command. Uh, it's sad. >> What about now? You really are my therapist. When you see it, you see it like so clear as that. It's happened multiple times. You see that they're very toxic and then another one of your friends loves them. I'm not a gossiper. I don't like talking bad about people behind their backs. I will always tell someone to their face if they've offended me, if I've got an issue with them. I'm very high on communication. The one thing I don't like to do though is gossip behind someone's back or say something negative. So, it's a bit difficult when you see someone for their true colors and someone else that you really love and care about doesn't see them for their true colors. >> Where's your responsibility? >> Yeah. >> In that friend dynamic to either stay quiet or speak up so far, Peter, I'm going to be honest. I've stayed quiet. >> Yeah, you might be better off. >> Yeah, you might be better off because you never know what the reaction is going to be. And to be honest, like you giving them the information doesn't resolve their dissonance. It just doesn't. >> Oh, you're right. >> So, like you're hoping that the information will settle something for them. It actually unsettles them. >> A lot of people have a different opinion of this. They say, "Well, you're just letting them be victims of this predator." Well, no. I mean, if you if they want to talk to you, you're open. And you can even say, >> you know, my experiences are a bit different, and if you ever want to talk, you know where to find me. just extend the invitation. But I wouldn't volunteer information because if they're believing that nonsense, no fault of their own, if it's been installed in them that this person is trustworthy or whatever, it actually is going to disrupt their narrative more if you try to convince them. It's like trying to pull someone out of a cult when they're in the throws of it. >> Oh, they rebel against you and they like they don't like you because they think that you're trying to hurt them, right? They can't trust you. Why would you want to take me out of this? um even if they've already started to notice that this isn't good for me, they still can't just take your your word for it. And another option is if you actually have solid evidence, you can say, "I have something that you might want to see or hear. If you're willing to see it, I'd be willing to give it to you." But it's got to be pretty concrete, like a text or something where >> it their mind can't play a trick on them in that moment. >> Even that though, I feel so icky. >> Well, you're looking out for them. I get this this message all the time from people. How do I inform my kids, my adult kids, that the father that they knew, >> oh, >> isn't anything like they thought? >> And I go, well, you don't you don't really do that. You kind of have to allow the pattern to converge for them. As long as they're not in any physical danger, >> they're not going to be able to grasp it from your narrative. >> You know, it might actually estrange you from them. That's really helpful to know because I think that that can really hurt someone where you're like, "Okay, I'm going to have the courage to go and tell them the hard thing that makes me uncomfortable, but I'm doing it to protect them." And then you say it and they they like lash out at you. >> Like that could be so hard. You're like, I just it was so hard for me to get the courage to say in the first place, and I'm doing it for them, and then now they hate me for it. >> Yeah. Well, and that even happens when people work with me. They'll say, can you tell me is this person a narcissist? I go, "No, you're I'm not going to tell you. You're going to tell me." Oh, >> because you're the key informant and you're you're going to either give me the information that's going to I'm going to see the pattern converge objectively, but it's not going to be from me just giving you the label. You're not going to feel better if I say, "Yep, they're a card carrying narcissist. You better get out. You might even stay longer if I tell you that." >> So, those words don't have a lot of um inherent value when you're trying to sort something out. But, I needed the labels to get out of my own situation. You did. I was I kept I kept viewing the relationship from the perspective of trauma lenses, my trauma models that I was learning in school at the time, >> as in she's gone through a traumatic >> she's traumatized and that's why she's mistreating me. And then I we went to therapy and the therapists were like, she's traumatized, that's why she's behaving this way. If you would deal with her trauma differently, she'll respect you and treat you differently. It was all put on. >> They said that she'd then respect you. Oh >> yeah, >> they didn't believe the the therapists I sought out at the time, this was like 10 years ago. >> They didn't believe in intentional abuse. >> It was all reactive unconscious processes. I was contributing to it. I was co-creating it. >> And at that point in your life, did you believe the therapist then? >> Yeah. I had no choice. It didn't feel good, but I kept defaulting back to well that I must I must have that much more work that I need to do because if I'm not seeing this and everybody else seems to be seeing it clearly, >> this is clearly an inherent problem. It's originating in me. That's what I was convinced of. And unfortunately, you know, I don't necessarily want to be the the messenger of this, but it seems like I've somehow become that is just factor in the possibility of the intentionality component that it's not always a defense. Sometimes these people really do benefit from friend groups operating this way. >> Oh, right. >> And they're not going to give it up for anything. >> And the phrase hurt people hurt people actually something they love. >> They love it. Yeah. I mean, it's it's immunity. >> Oh, immunity. That's rough. Well, it is true that hurt people hurt people some, but we can't use that as a a universal explanation for all mal socially maladaptive behavior, especially in the case of Bundy, which he actually stated, "Stop looking for cause and effect. You're not going to find it." >> You know, I mean, obviously he contradicted himself countless times. So then other times he would say, "Oh yeah, it's it's the sex industry. It's the porn industry. I'm far too sensitive to that. It's culture." Then he would contradict that and say, um, >> I didn't black out. There's no entity in me. I know what I did. You deserve to be protected from people like me. And then he would switch again. I'm the victim. But I believe him when he says that um he wasn't hurting when he was doing this. This wasn't >> internally you are. >> This wasn't pain that he was masking or compensating from. He wasn't ashamed of anything. >> True psychopathy right there. Right. And so we have to understand like it's not as fringe as we'd like it to be. That there's a pretty large amount of the general population who have these traits. Not to the extreme of Bundy, but to the degree that they're willing to not be concerned with you at all, >> you know, in a friendship. >> Yeah. All right. There's a um one we've kind of touched on, but I'd like to go a little deeper on is the proximity manipulation. So they start manipulating other people um >> unbeknownst to you to then gather information about you so that they can then use later. >> Yeah. And obviously they do that to shock you, disarm you. I mean to startle you. Um it's emotional blackmail too. You don't see the friendship group as like a web that you're all caught in, right? >> And so you're giving information to everybody. Um, another thing they do is they try to solicit ruthlessly information about themselves from the friend group just in case you might have said something about them. >> Oh, say more about that. How would you >> like even if you said something as innocent as, you know, that comment they made the other day kind of hurt my feelings, but I didn't want to say anything. >> Well, that's going to get back to them. >> Oh, >> so you have to temporarily suspend trusting anyone who's subjugated, which again is more more effort for you. It's sad, but your friends might also be influenced by this, right? And so, not unbeknownst to them, I'm not saying that they've even turned on you. They just might be operating in this system of subjugation where they're under the control of this one person. >> And so, they're not even fully aware of how much they're willing to not betray you, but but divulge. You know, it's almost like they're being used as spies rather than rather than friends. So, >> Oh, right. That actually then makes me think about the mother that's the um got the personality disorder where they may use the other kids. >> Oh, totally. >> So, talk to me about mothers and >> Well, my my my mother had a mother like this. >> I don't like it to sound like I'm speaking disparagingly of my family, but my my maternal grandmother was a very mean woman. >> Do you remember? >> I do. >> Yeah. We we were brought to her house a lot as a kid and um and so I I very much witnessed the interactions and the dynamics that took place between her and my mother, but she would call my aunt and spread a rumor about my mom and then my aunt would, you know, confront my mom or ask if it was true and then my mom would of course deny it because it wasn't true. But that would reinforce the trust with the mother. >> So rather than it going, "Oh, it wasn't true. I feel relief." it was well now I can't trust my sister you know so she would do that she would triangulate her kids she would put them at odds with each other she would tell different stories so that they would fight have conflict um she was envious of my mother a lot of daughters have a very hard time wrapping their mind around the fact that their mother could have been envious of them >> that was literally going to be my next question Peter how do I get my head wrapped around that that's your child >> so again their operating system isn't doesn't have the same motivations. When you see typically when you see your child, you you have this implicit in or inherent pride and kinship and love and warmth for them. And you celebrate the things that you think the world will celebrate about them, but those are threats to a narcissist. They're not things to celebrate. So even if it's your own flesh and blood, even if you in a sense created it because it's your child, um they still see those as external threats because what if my daughter is prettier than me? >> Oh, I mean, you should be proud. >> Well, that's going to pose a threat to somebody who's extremely vain or somebody who prioritizes their image over anything else that they've invested in their image at the expense of any other aspects of self, right? And it seems like it would be a counterintuitive thing for a mother to do. I I would say it is. It's not it's not how we're typically designed to thrive in in a caregiving relationship. But some of these traits unfortunately >> exist in mothers. >> How do you then have the same woman? So one mother will have multiple kids. One will be the bad kid, right? The one that you're just trying. Yeah. And the other one will be the golden child. Yeah. >> So, the same personality that you had said like, well, they don't want you to be prettier, they'll still potentially have a golden child that they'll put on a pedestal. >> Yeah. So, one one of the ways I can explain this personally is my grandmother actually was treated me with warmth. >> Oh, there you go. Yes. >> And so, the reason she did it as a as a therapist, I'm going to say this, not as a grandchild. The reason she did it is because if she could keep the narrative ideal, if I could, if I maintained idealization of her, she could actually verbally and physically assault my mother in front of me and my mind would tell me it was something else. >> So, it wasn't that there was something inherently special about me, I'll say that clinically, that made her treat me that way. >> Um, it was a matter of convenience. Um, I also never gave any push back. So the push back my mom would give is, "Hey, don't talk to me like that in front of my children." >> So what happens if you say that to a narcissist? >> Oh, let me do it in front of the children. >> Right? >> So often times the golden child phenomenon is really like it benefits me if you see me as perfect because then you're going to have a hard time believing that I'm abusing the other person. Um it's not that they typically genuinely have favoritism for that person. Maybe they're less threatening. Maybe there's something about their physical appearance that feels like it's not as much of a threat. So, there's all kinds of reasons for it, but it's not this genuine I like you and I don't like you. >> Right. Cuz I just very recently watched a docu series about um do you remember the show John and Kate plus eight? >> Yeah. >> So, kids are now totally older. One of the kids, I think it's one of the oldest, doesn't speak to the mom, doesn't speak to the brothers and sisters. And it's because he was the one that was like, "Hang on a minute. Mom's being inappropriate. Hang on a minute, mom. And he started to see things. And look, I don't know the situation. I'm not an expert, but based on what he was saying, he was like, I started to spot all the toxicity. And so my mom just went after me and she would hold my other siblings up on a pedestal. So they all saw me as the problem child. >> Because that was the person who was going to disrupt the perfect image. Yeah. Right. >> Right. Exactly. >> So So we're all like in a narcissistic system, we're all used as pawns. there's not any like loyalty, which is sad because often times the person who was scapegoed thinks maybe there could have been another way of relating to mom so that I could have been the golden child or I could have been at least favored a little bit more. >> What? >> But there's really nothing you could do. So I want to empower your audience to not think that there's something you could have done to to, >> you know, earn the treatment from a narcissistic mother. They don't have it in them to be motivated to treat you that way in the first place. So you just said about the story with your grandmother and your mother and you said this is my psychotherapist assessment in hindsight. Can you talk to me about the actual grandson? So the the heart where you're in that moment you're seeing your grandmother putting your mom down. Talk to me about what's actually going through your mind where you're picturing your grandmother to be great and then you're seeing this things like what how did that feel? >> The human nonclinical person in me had to compartmentalize that. We were very close. I had a very um complicated attachment to her because I remember her the warmth in her voice and she would sing to me as a kid in Italian and all this stuff and it was very meaningful and it still is. Now as an adult I can say well yeah like that can happen and that other type of abuse could simultaneously take place in the same person. It's like um the duality of pain and and cruelty, you know, in some in somebody. But I mean, there are still times where I want to hold her like as a representation in my mind as just like my grandmother who loved me, >> you know? I mean, of of course, we want that from our grandparents, we want that from our parents, we want that from our friends. Um the reality is different but it's not something that um I think it actually feels better to know the truth now rather than to have this fantasy. >> Oh right. Oh that's hard. Is it better? >> I for me it is. >> It is to know the truth not hold the fantasy. >> Yeah. God, I don't know. Sometimes like I'll say to myself, I know I'm tricking myself, but I would rather think of my grandma there in this way. But do you think that that's actually detrimental to them me learning the lesson? >> I think it depends on on the circumstances. So like my mom, she's still in denial about it. >> Oh, she is. So she's like, my mom was great. >> Not great. She was like, yeah, I hear what you're saying, but I loved my mother and she had a really hard life. which is another way of saying she wouldn't have treated me that way if she had a better >> people hurt people. >> Yeah. >> Uhhuh. >> So >> that's fascinating that you were the golden child and now can understand and see the truth of it. But for her she has to hold on to an idealization of who she was. >> I think it's empowering to know the truth, but I think some people if they need to hold on to like sort of a fantasy image or like a halfway or whatever explanation, I mean it depends on the context, you know. Well, that actually then takes me to um one more tactic that I'd like to bring up is the reputational poisoning. >> Yeah, there's so many examples of this. Um well, so what you're describing is let's say that you haven't even met some of the people that that >> the narcissistic person has gotten to. Like they've already like prefaced who you are with misinformation. >> Oh god. >> Like who knows what they told you. They the friend could have said that they um you did some ultimate betrayal back in the day early in your friendship. Maybe like you you tried to steal their their boyfriend or or you did something you spread a rumor about them that was devastating. It could not be true but everyone else already assumes you. So you've your reputation has already been poisoned it and it precedes you. Right. Right. >> And they do that because they just don't want the possibility that someone might like you more, someone might warm up to you. um you can't be seen as somebody with the potential to be likable, lovable. I mean, that's just too u threatening to them. It's inconvenient for them. So, they do a lot of relational poisoning even to people that you you haven't met, >> right? >> But um it's a very sad thing to think that someone's only inviting you into their life to exploit you, to see what kind of use or value you have for them. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, whether it's your mom that you've been brought up and you didn't realize what was happening and you finally see, or if it's friends groups where you weren't realizing, you know, why there was a weird dynamic and why you would feel awkward with some of the girls and not with the others >> or whether you've been in a relationship where the man really did manipulate you deliberately. A lot of these things can really scar women and dent our confidence more than anything in the world. and you talk about something that I would like to really go deep on is rebuilding your reality confidence and have a quote of yours. >> Awareness is not cynicism. It is protection and knowledge of the playbook is the beginning of freedom. So I want to talk about the playbook of freedom. >> That's actually a very fitting quote to what we we were speaking about earlier. Um because I do think awareness liberated me. I think I needed the intellectual awareness that this is a possibility >> versus living in a world where you know you don't even consider that it's a possibility. It could be potentially more dangerous. Right? So I think one of the ways to reestablish reality confidence is to resolve the dissonance. The problem is there's not enough evidence in these relationships to prove that this person has been doing this all along to you. So you can't settle on >> I'm either in or I'm out. Right? reality confidence comes back though when you start to accept patterns that converge whether you want them to or not. >> Oh yeah. Okay. So I'd actually love to go through so I read your book. It's so good. Um and you have like a bit of a breakdown of how to actually tackle this. Um so number one is name what happened. Give language to the behavior. Why is that important? >> Well because I think for the mo for the most part you've been misnaming what happened, right? So you need to hear you need to actually hear the words differently. They need to actually land that this is something else. Most women that that reach out to me go, I I never thought in a million years what I was experiencing from my friend or my partner was abuse. >> Can I say that word? >> Oh, >> and it's like hell yeah, you can say it. And you have to say it. You have to say assault, abuse, whatever the the the bad word is because that's descriptive. I mean, that's why we use language to describe and emphasize what has actually happened. You've been describing it through distorted lenses because your lenses have been distorted. So, it's not friendship. You got to call a spade a spade. I think there's a lot of power in naming it for what it is. >> Do they also need to say it? Um, so some I think it depends on the person. Some people feel very empowered when they put words to their story and they say it out loud and they have a witness to it. Someone needs to know my truth and and believe it and validate it. >> That's wonderful, especially for women, I think. >> Um, somebody knows and they're not going to exploit me with the information and nothing's changed between us. That's powerful. So, I think a lot of women I I think should say the thing to someone they can trust. Other people write it down and they just need to know that it that they know the truth about it without necessarily having a witness. I think it's just a case by case basis. >> Yeah. >> Um what's interesting as you were saying that though um putting words to it sometimes then can go against how you see yourself. So even talking about cognitive dissonance where it's like if you think of yourself as a super impressive, powerful, confident woman and then you put abuse to it, >> there may be cognitive dissonance even within yourself of like how Yeah. like, can I have been abused and still be a damn strong woman? >> Yeah, that can create um like an certainly an identity disturbance or a self a disturbance in your self-concept. If you if you know who you are and this doesn't align with that, it can certainly shake that up a bit. >> Um All right. And so once you've given language to the behavior, then you said you need to see the pattern and you need to see that it wasn't random. >> Oh yes. Okay. So this is a really important part. It's like a retrospective analysis of identifying patterns. Was there any consistency to this behavior? Even though there may have may have been a million times where the person excused it or or explained it away or justified it, whether you like the behavior or not, did it persist across? >> Would you like it to say like >> did it exist? >> Did it exist? because that's a different way for your brain to wrap itself around what happened. It's like now this is just a behavior that I'm noticing and then the likelihood that it's going to increase is based on the past information I have. Like what's the likelihood that after 5 years this person's going to all of a sudden stop lying to my other friends or stop making excuses for why they can never come to my birthday? >> Right? It's happened five years in a row. So whether you like it or not, just see the pattern. Write down the pattern of the behavior. How many times has it happened? Right? >> Explain to me the like thing. So because I can understand, okay, look, this bad behavior, they missed your birthday. They kept making excuses. Okay. Well, five years in a row, clearly they don't care about my birthday. But why is it important for me to notice a pattern on the things that I liked? Well, because the emotional interpretation of it of whether you liked it or not can cloud whether or not it actually just took place. >> Oh, say more about that. >> You know, well, I mean, let's use addiction as an example. >> It's possible that the re that all the reasons the person gave you for why they're engaging in this behavior were absolutely true. It's possible that it was trauma. It's possible that they have a very sensitive nervous system. All those reasons why the behavior took place could be true. Now you have to decide, are you willing to tolerate the behavior whether you like it or not? Is it a behavior that aligns with your system of value? And can you even handle it in this relational system? If you can't, yeah, it does matter if you like it or not. But this is going to inform from an more objective perspective. I just don't necessarily believe this behavior is going to stop. It's kind of sobering to see it as just something that you just don't want in your life versus something that you have to love or despise. >> Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense. Um, okay. So, then the next step is accept that it was intentional. It's not accidental. One of your quotes is manipulation is not a reflex of pain, but a calculated strategy. Yeah, that's what kind of differentiates me from a lot of other people in the psychology field right now is I don't believe all of these um pattern strategic occasions of repeated behavior are unconscious processes that are strictly defense mechanisms. I think that there's an intentionality to this because it really works for these people. Just like loyalty is something you value and it works for you and you're not going to try to become less loyal like naturally, they're not going to try to become less exploitative. >> It's their system. How do you display loyalty in your friends, in your friendship groups? I mean, you could probably say there's a lot of intentional behavior. I go out of my way to do this on purpose. Yeah. >> They do the same thing. It's just not for loyalty. It's for entitlement. >> Uhhuh. God, that makes so much sense. Um, okay. So, then the next step is to validate your perception that you weren't imagining it. This feels like a very big one. >> This is huge. And one of the most successful ways I've seen this with women is women support groups >> of people who have been through the same thing so they can bypass the steps of trying to explain their story, trying to explain the confusion of why it's so hard to tell it, why it doesn't even make sense to them. It's like you skip all those steps and you go straight to, yeah, I guarantee you when you start talking about this friend or this spouse, you're going to be telling my story. And so there's this immediate resonance that takes place like in milliseconds kind of unconsciously almost and that validation feels very stabilizing and and clarifying. >> I don't mean to keep going back to cult but I've learned I've done a lot of work on cult like I studied Nexium and things like that. >> Once you start to realize once you're out of the cult and you start to see other people out of the cult and you've heard the same stories you somewhat do feel like okay thank god it wasn't just me. Even if you've got the proof for yourself of the stuff that's happened to you, seeing other people have proof that it's happened to them as well does feel more validating when you're getting it from the outside. >> 100%. And interestingly, a lot of women try to feel ashamed about that because then they tell themselves, "Does that mean I'm happy it happened to someone else?" >> Oh. Uhhuh. >> It's like, "No, that's not what it means. What it means is you're not alone in this, and you need to know that." >> Yeah. Um, I haven't neatly been on myself, but there's a I think it's a Facebook page. I think it's turned into a website and stuff and it's are you dating the same guy and it's all women going on to be like this guy's a cheater don't listen to him. So it's like okay well if it happened to her then fine I'm not even going to take the chance. >> Well that's a good example of like the optimistic skepticism. >> It's like I'm not just going to go blindly into this. Now I have information before I met this person and I'm not going to discard it no matter how much I think they're attractive. I'm just going to note it. What we tend to do is our confirmation biases can polarize things. So if your bias is towards I'm going to ignore all the important data against this because I want it so badly, that's a problem. >> That's actually interesting when it comes to friendships because there isn't that necessary hard line, >> right? >> So like with a guy >> if you're dating, you're like, are we going to commit to each other? Are we being just exclusive? One commitment. Are we going to move in together? Another commitment. Are we married now? This means that you've got rules around the stages. With friendships, you don't. >> Yes. And that's also why it's more difficult to detect sometimes is because the intimacy isn't as contained. >> Yes. >> As adults, you typically don't ask someone to be your best friend forever. So, you don't you're not establishing like these you're not really establishing these things, these stages. You're just sort of like they keep showing up. It's voluntary. They must like me. >> That sadly can be a bit dangerous. just assuming they're showing up because they like you rather than maybe they maybe I'm very valuable to this person in a way that I don't know yet and I'm going to see what they're going to do with that. >> Mhm. And with guys it's like okay we're about to move in together so I need to tell them my boundaries because we're about to enter this next phase. With friendships you don't. It's that like trickle effect where it's like you haven't said something for two years and it's like well can I really bring this up now because I haven't said it for two years. >> Yeah. There's a lot of opportunities for friends to go and regroup and then you sort of can forget what they have done to you. >> You know, like the distance benefits them, >> right? >> Because they get to go and regroup and almost hope that you reset back to how you used to see them. >> This literally happened to me. I won't reveal names, but I was very close with someone. I they would love bombing me. I thought, "Oh my god, this friendship's amazing." years and years, helped them, did a bunch of stuff, and then they got what they needed, and they ghosted me. So, I realized what it was. I was like, "Cool, Lisa, learn your lesson. Write down what the signs were and what you missed and what gut instincts you ignored." And I just did the training. Um, and I hadn't seen the person for like 6 months. I then go to a charity event and they're there and the first thing they do, they come right up to me. They give me the biggest hug. Lisa, I love you. I miss you. I was so awkward. I was like, "I love you, too." >> Yeah, >> dude. Inside, I was fuming. I was like, "Why did I just [ __ ] say that? I was fuming. I felt like I betrayed myself." >> I know. But that's the subjugating system. Like, you get under and it's hard to believe, but they've actually, you know, there's EEG uh recordings of brain activity. People can make people feel different things. And so, what they want you to do is they want the performative Lisa in that moment where you're going to say, "I love you, too." Cuz that's the setting for that. So, they're pulling that out of you and you're almost like incapable of not saying it. And then you go back and you go, "What came over me? I should have just ignored them or been polite, but just respectfully said, you know, >> thank you. >> Take care." Um, >> and then of course in hindsight, you you rehearse what you wish you would have said. That's all part of the system that was installed a long time ago before you even knew something was up with the relationship, >> you know? So then if you encounter someone like that even years later, you might fall right back into that subjugating system where they're subjective and you're just their object. >> Oh yeah. And I recognize it in me. I think a lot of women have this. It's just I'm a pleaser. I don't want to upset someone. So in that one moment where I'm like I know that if I don't say it back, I'm going to make this moment very awkward. >> It probably was the most appropriate thing to say in that social context. You didn't want to disrupt something. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I hear what you're saying, but I did it for feeling comfortable than I really did it for being truthful about how I felt. >> I And I hear that. I think too that what I'm saying is there's an element of influence that's even beyond what you're aware of. There's a point where there's like a social etiquette aspect that gets into place where you actually feel like you'd be doing the wrong thing if you excuse yourself. These types of people can almost get you to start feeling that before like the fatal blow. >> When I talk about the skepticism, you have to just stay one benign step ahead of that. Just one benign step ahead of that so that you're not now feeling like you're in a situation you can't voluntarily get out of. >> Yeah, I hate that feeling. I hate that feeling so much. Okay, so um once you've said it out loud, you know that you're not imagining it. you validated your own perception of it. Then it's about rebuilding your self trust through clarity, right? >> So talk to me about how you actually do that. >> So a lot of people don't take regular inventory of their own personality, their own traits, the things that they should probably really value in themselves. So one way to do this is use this opportunity as a self-discovery phase. Go and like analyze yourself. In in my traumatic cognitive dissonance book, I have a list of traits that I think people should intentionally cultivate in themselves to to combat these relationships. One is like integrity, right? One is being able to set parameters without guilt, right? Self-compassion. We're often taught that if we're compassionate towards ourselves, then we're narcissistic. It's ridiculous. So once you can sort of create uh a a self-concept that you are proud of then the next step is self-respect and self-respect is acting out that self-concept. It's the action of your self-concept. A lot of people stop at the concept >> and they really do say wonderful things about themselves. They just don't practice it. >> Um there's an exercise I do in sometimes when we do uh in-person uh workshops for women. I make them sign a contract of like a code of integrity. And so now after they leave that event, the only person they're letting down is themselves if they violate the contract. Because >> is there details attached to what code of integrity looks like? >> Yes. Yeah. >> What are a few things? >> So you I mean just kind of traits or attributes or qualities that you value that you think are going to empower you personally and interpersonally. So being true to your word, right? being willing to say no without guilt, you know, like knowing your own limits, not feeling like a bad friend. If you have to say no, I can't make it, you know. Um, this happens to my wife often where she'll feel exhausted and then compelled to go to an event. And in her mind, the people are disappointed if she doesn't go. And in my mind, I just remind her, I know your friends, they will be disappointed if you exert yourself too much. So, you have to reframe the narrative. >> That's so true. I really practiced this. And so the thing that helped me is like, okay, what am I thinking? Am I saying what I'm thinking? Am I acting what I'm saying? >> That's right. >> And right. And so those three buckets was very clear to me to go, hang on a minute, Lisa, you just said that you're really tired, >> right? >> But then you just said, "Yeah, I'll go out tonight." And then you went out. That's not living in integrity. >> That's But what that process is is that's mentalization or or metacognition where you're thinking about your thinking >> rather than just acting on your thinking. >> Oh, right. >> Right. So So it doesn't always work for us. Sometimes we we go, "Okay, even though I was thinking about it, I still didn't do what I wanted to do." That's okay. And you forgive yourself. But but that's a good exercise to get into is thinking about your own thinking so that you can draw some alternative conclusions, right? Which, by the way, in relationships with narcissistic friends, they they impose this sense of urgency. So, you can't think about your own thinking or your own choices that are best for you cuz you're thinking about what's best for them. Yes. >> And they do it instantaneously. And um it's pretty insidious how quickly these things I mean it's it's these things can catch on so quickly and and reprogram you in a way. >> Yeah. >> Um all right. Thank you so much for going through that list. Um if someone's listening right now and a lot of what we've seen has really resonated with them whether it's been in a female friendship, it's a mother, it's someone like Ela Maxwell which god forbid um or it's a guy in your life from a romantic relationship. and all of this really resonates and they want to start doing the work to bring back their reality confidence. What would you say is the first step? Like if someone just doesn't even have the courage to seek help, what can they go and do? >> Oh, that's a great question. Um, I would say educating yourself, psycho education, but specifically on um like intentional abuse and subjugating relationships, meaning relationships that seem like they can't have two equals in them. Do research on that. There's a lot of literature on that. There's a lot of um psychological literature now talking about, you know, what motivates behavior and things like that. And I think people just need to know that it's possible for the first step is just letting accepting that it's possible that some of your relationships might have always involved this um component of control, >> not just a sincere desire to collaborate and cooperate. There's always these excuses of well these people behave this way because they're hurt, they're insecure, they're ashamed of themselves that the shame is so unconscious that they're avoiding it and they're projecting this and and just you just need to understand them from that lens and then it'll make sense. And um that's not always the case. >> So, >> and if they want to find and go deeper into your world and read your books and all the amazing things that you're now doing, where can they go and find you? Yeah. So I have a website drperco.com that explains the services that I offer for people um which in involve consulting and and groups and things like that. Uh inerson workshops for women and things like that. I have books on Amazon and I'm on Instagram and YouTube and all that stuff. >> Thank you so much for all the work you do for women. >> Thank you for having me on. >> Honestly amazing. Guys, guys, I read your comments and so many of you asked me to do an episode on the toxic narcissistic female. It's been really hard for me to do that today because it brought up actually a lot of things and right at the end when he said just know that it's possible. I think that that was a big eye opener for me is that I never really thought about it and yet I have been hurt along the way. And so if I have, how many of you women have been blindsided by a woman in your life that you actually thought that you could trust and you let them into your world and now you were suffering the consequences? this episode today is for you. So guys, please, please go and check out his books. No joke, they are so damn powerful. You got to read them, guys. Guys, thank you so much. Please drop in the comments more of the type of interviews you want me to do and go and check out this man because honestly, he's chalk full of information. If you're not subscribed, smash that subscribe button down there. And until next time, be the hero of your own life. Peace. If you want a spot when that kind, sweet, unassuming person in your life is actually trying to manipulate you, then you can't miss this episode right here with former Russian spy. Secret agents, they adapt to their target so they can be the perfect partner.