The Don Juan of Nauvoo

Welcome, everybody. Mormonism Live. Mr. Radio Free Mormon. How are you tonight?

I'm great. Thank you, Bill.

Excellent. All right. [laughter] Hey folks, we had a little bit of some sound issues, both RFM and I before the show. Me first, and then I think when I corrected my stuff, suddenly he was having an issue. So, if you'll just respond in the live chat whether the sound seems okay, uh, we'd very much appreciate that sound check from all of you.

Uh, tonight's episode is the Don Juan of Nauvoo. And uh, I'll put uh, you're waving at the audience. Are you waving at me? Just it's about me, isn't it? All right. Well, okay. So, here it is. Uh, the Don Juan of Nauvoo. Uh, anything you want to share before we jump into this, RFM?

>> Well, uh, your source material. You're going to go into that immediately, aren't you?

>> Yeah. Because I think what I recall is that you said to some fellow uh journeyed out to Salt Lake City with the intention of writing a book and sat down and started interviewing people about their experiences in Nauvoo. And then he wrote a book with their experiences in it purportedly and divided up into different chapters. And one of the chapters was titled The Don Juan of Nauvoo.

>> Uh, yeah. So this is the thumbnail, folks. It's got uh Joseph Smith there with a little bit of rosy lips and a little bit of blush in the cheeks.

>> So the the book that this came from, had you ever heard of this? This is Mormon Portraits. Joseph Smith. Mormon Portraits or The Truth About Mormon Leaders from 1830 to 1886. This was written by a Dr. W. While that's not his real name. We'll see that in a just a second. W. It's almost like py.

>> Yeah, almost. So, uh, so this book, uh, the author here is Wilhelm Ritter von Y metal.

>> If that is your real name, doctor.

>> Yeah, if that is, uh, 1838 to 1896 is his life. He went under the pseudonym of Dr. W. While, but he often uh, let's see, I already got that. So he was an Austrian-born journalist, trained lawyer, international correspondent who spent decades traveling the world and reporting for major European newspapers, including the and I'm not going to be able to pronounce that, but the New Free Press maybe.

>> I think that a trained lawyer is something less than a lawyer.

>> Yeah, it does seem like [laughter] it does seem like that's the the case. So uh new free press and new zer zatung whatever that is and he was highly educated earned a doctorate in law so he was a trained lawyer I just don't think he was a practicing one and built his reputation as a professional observer and investigative writer covering major cultural religious and social movements of his time. His work included eyewitness reporting, travel writing, and detailed investigative studies based on documents and interviews which helped established him as a serious journalist rather than just a casual commentator.

>> You know, those those uh publications are in German, which I understand they speak in Austria, or at least a similar language to it. Pri Noa Priapressa. Could you hazard a guess as to what that is in English? Bill, it's almost what we would say.

>> The new free press.

>> Yes, we get a lot of our words from German. And then the Nea Turker, I'm not sure what circer is, but the taung is the newspaper at the end.

>> The Noya once again is the new. So out there, uh Tim Wthbone or any other uh people who know German, tell us what circer is. Yeah. And I know Dan's familiar with this book, and I did have a brief conversation with him as I was preparing this episode. Uh, in the early 1880s, actually 1885, I believe, why Metal travels to North America specifically to investigate Mormonism firsthand. While in the United States, he interviewed individuals who personally knew Joseph Smith and who knew early church leaders, compiling their statements into his influential 1886 books. And I think there's sort of two books in one here. Joseph Smith the prophet, his family and his friends and Mormon portraits. And these works were based on interviews, firsthand accounts, documentary uh documentary research and were published in Salt Lake City itself, meaning he was operating at the center of Mormon historical memory. His goal was to produce a fact-based investigation using direct testimony from insiders, defectors, and witnesses, making his work especially valuable as an independent outsider journalist, documenting firsthand recollections while many original participants were still alive.

>> And uh I'm going to ask, if you don't mind, will you read this? This is him explaining to the public at the beginning of the book what he's trying to accomplish. And uh we won't you know it it sort of uh ends there on the right in that last paragraph where it's titled the witnesses and we'll read a different slide now. Yeah. I'm so sorry RFM. So this one here and so if you'll read this if you'll just notice though on the right hand side the second half of that it starts off with the witnesses and I want you to read that it won't read all of it because it comes to an end abruptly and I didn't want to read the next page but there is some interesting things said in that paragraph that I think the audience will connect to in terms of relating to post Mormons today with post Mormons in 1886. But this is him explaining uh what he's what he's about to get into.

>> All right. Now, uh, the letter to the public.

>> Yep. Correct.

>> Okay. And from the beginning?

>> Yes.

>> You just stop me when you want to. Okay.

>> Curer. Curer. I looked it up. Do you know you've heard of Zurich, right? Switzerland.

>> Yep.

>> But Turker is a person from there. So that's what it is. Letter to the public. I do not wish to insult anybody in this book. Mhm. Or to hurt anybody's feelings. I desire to do my simple duty as a writer. That is all. To do it as a critic and observer, having the courage of my opinions and being happily free from all entangling alliances. Um, sounds like he might be quoting Washington there. I came first to this fine territory in December 1884. stayed a few weeks, okay, and received my first general impressions about the state of Utah affairs. Took my first dip into Mormon history and into the problem. Hm. With a capital P and in quotation marks. Yeah. Do you know what that is, Bill? Into dipping into the problem. Is that polygamy?

>> Well, no, no, no. So, the book is on Mormonism in lots of facets. So, I assume what he's speaking to is the deception of Mormonism and uh it as a religion being uh problematic uh in terms of its truth claims in terms of uh being the Lord's one true church. He he he's coming to this as a critic but as an outsider who just came to Utah and said, "These guys don't make any sense. I can't believe anybody believes this." and he starts doing interviews asking people what their firsthand experiences are or what their uh hearsay memories are of what other people have said or experienced.

>> Okay. I was received in the kindest manner by Governor Murray and then he lists a bunch of other people who were not Mormons. In fact, he says the well-known Mormon apostates and reformers and their friends. So that's who he's received by initially by the venerable and clear-headed widow of the Paul of Mormonism, Mrs. Sarah Imprat and I'm guessing the Paul of Mormonism would be Parley herself an exhaustless mind of curious information in the imminent author by the imminent authorist Mrs. Cordelia Paddock also by a number of apostles priests and presidents in the Mormon church. Okay, so both sides of the fence. My interest got awakened. I returned to Utah early in February 85, remaining till the latter part of May. This second sojourn was devoted exclusively to the taking of depositions from the mouths of living witnesses. I have examined some 80, all men and women of recognized probit and most of them of superior intelligence. For months have I worked with them from 8 to 10 hours a day repeating my interviews until I had all the information they had to give. I am still working daily in this way. You know, Bill, if this is actually on the up and up and he really did this the way he said.

>> Mhm.

>> This is an invaluable resource.

>> Yeah. And I think he's credible. I've asked Dan Vogle. Dan uh says that he thinks this is credible that we we ought to take it seriously. That doesn't mean that every account is true. By the way, we'll get into that. It doesn't mean that every reminiscence is true. Some people are sharing secondhand or hearsay. And uh as I went through these stories, I tried to find corroborating evidence. We'll go through that tonight. But there are pieces of evidence that do in fact show that these people generally speaking are telling the truth. And uh in a few instances I'm showing that that we can probably say that that story is not true. And uh but this guy was very serious about sitting down with members and ex-members of the church and getting their memories, their experiences, and trying to essentially write uh a a uh I don't want to say expose, but a um an effort to sort of shine a light on Mormonism and to show what it is and what people have experienced in it and to be perfectly okay saying all the negative that people have experienced in the early church. It was like he sat down and collected 80 Mormon stories. Right. He might have been John Delin before there was John Delin.

>> Mhm. Okay. I'll continue. I have made studies in Rome, Naples, and Sicily. In France, and England, I'm kind of a big deal. Have published some books about Italy and about the Passion Play in Oberg. But never have I felt so interested in all my life as now in the history and workings of Mormonism. He got the bug, I guess. What is the secret charm of this study? I don't know. It may be the fact that the study is a the study of a strikingly peculiar religious sect affords more insight into human nature than any other investigation. You know, I think he's got something there. It may be that the analysis of a modern theocracy calls back so vividly the forms workings in general history more or less dark of older theocracies as that of the Jews, the Muhammedans, and the Jesuits. It may be that a book like The Confessions of John D. Lee shows not only in vivid and startling colors the organism of one bloody fanatic and his murderous mates, but that it explains at the same time by analogy monsters like the Duke of Alba shows that religious fanaticism has taught at all times that crimes committed in the name of God are meritorious and shows again that such teachings find many believers Things haven't changed much. I think they're changing a little bit. Who having devoted themselves to the service of some fancied Lord can lie and perjure themselves rob and butcher, believing that they do the bidding of that God whom Jesus of Nazareth taught to be a loving father to all. You know, this guy has a way with words. What do you think, Bill?

>> He does. And I'm gonna I'm gonna jump here into this next section and read a little bit of this. I just when I read this last part, so he's now explained what is how he got to be in Utah and what he's trying to go about doing. And then in this he describes the people that he talks to and he describes them in such a way that I see so many connections to us today as ex Mormons or post Mormons. And I sometimes think we look back at the ex Mormons of the early church history and we don't realize that they are relating to Mormonism much in the same way that we are in terms of being feeling deceived, being betrayed, realizing that their leaders acted in ways that didn't represent their standard of what a prophet should be. That the doctrines changed, that things weren't adding up, and that there was harm being done to people. And so it says here, the witnesses whose depositions are contained in my book have been for the most part victims of a great delusion. The Mormon missionaries told them in Europe that the gospel of Christ had been restored, that miracles of all kinds, including the gift of the Holy Ghost, daily revelations of the Almighty, and scores of other blessings would be given to the faithful followers of Joseph Smith, the great seer and prophet, that here in Utah was the home of the pure, a paradise of innocence and goodness, nothing but brotherly love, peace, and fidelity. that this was the new Zion. But when they came here, they saw a different picture. They saw that Brigham Young was just as Joseph Smith had been, the great shark, and that the faithful were the karp. They did not hear anymore of the Bible, as they had heard in the old country. In Zion, the gospel was, "Pay your tithing. Obey the priesthood in all things. Ask never any question, but do as you are told. Take more wives. And if you have only a little one, room to log cabin, never mind. Take wives and build up the kingdom so that Brigham Young might soon be king of an independent state of the union." And I'll stop there and I'll just say that when the missionary showed up to teach me the gospel RFM.

>> Yeah. Does it sound familiar?

>> Yeah. I thought there was going to be a ton of emphasis on Bible.

>> On Christ on scriptures in general on uh living the gospel of Jesus Christ. And you get some of that in Mormonism. But really quickly you learn that what what is church? What is what is your life in the church is a bunch of rules that at times seem quite distant from the gospel of Jesus Christ and from the scriptures.

>> Yeah, we got rules. When I joined the church and I'm sure still today, not as much though. We got rules. We don't even know why we have them, right?

>> Yeah.

>> But then they quote from the book of Moses where it's a virtue to blindly obey with Adam, right? Sacrificing the lamb. Yeah. and and God comes, why are you sacrificing the lamb? I know not except God commanded me. And so then he tells him why. Right. So it's actually a virtue in Mormonism to obey commandments that you got no clue as to why you're supposed to obey them.

>> Yeah. and and he's he's noting that there's a deception that happens that you're brought into the church with the missionaries teaching one thing will be your life and then when you join a whole another thing is your life and there's a trick in that that you don't pick up on. I almost needed to read this to clearly see like oh you know what that's right in a way I feel tricked by that too. Um, anyway.

>> Well, yeah, they teach you about the 1830 uh Mormon church and then they baptize you into the 2022 Mormon church or in my case the 1978 Mormon church, but it's completely different and there ain't no spiritual gifts going on. They still teach that they're there. They're just not.

>> Right. Right. What they say and what actually happens aren't the same. And so I just want to note he he seems to be really good at picking up the nuances of Mormonism and he wasn't there for very long. Uh, the next slide is just witness statements. We won't read these, but what I'll just note in these is that you have a bunch of people who are sort of putting their testimonies down that are just saying that they saw this man uh while but again I want to get his full name correct. William Ritter von Y medal that the uh, the folks who put their testimonies here are just saying like this guy is serious and we're testifying that, you know, he really is making a a really sincere effort to go around the town to sit down with people. He talks about sitting down for 10 hours a day interviewing people. And when you go through the book, you can see that he really spent a ton of time on a multitude of subjects getting information from the people in the town. And uh again, Dan, I' I'd love to hear more from you on what you think. But I was quite impressed with the way in which he went about collecting these uh experiences of members firsthand and otherwise and his effort to uh try to collect as much information in a in a in a respectable, objective, unbiased way. Even though he has biases for sure, but it seems like he really is just tracking, recording down uh what people came to him to say. So, I'll just.

>> I see all these are testimonials as to his good character so you can trust that he's doing this on the up and up.

>> Correct. And so then we get there's a bunch of chapters in the book. We're only going to talk about two of them tonight and mostly this first one. And this is the one that the episode title was built on. It is the Don Juan of Nauvoo. And uh he sets this up by just talking about you know Don Juan. Yeah, that's a good name. I remember to have heard the glorious opera of Mozart at least 30 times. I remember how I used to be overcome with two powerful sensations whenever I left the Vienna opera house.

>> One was a strong emotion in my breast, such it as a decent fellow must always feel after having witnessed the punishment of an unscrupulous libertine. And second, any amount of smell of burnt gunpowder in my nostrils, proceeding from the fireworks, which represented pretty well a middlesized, old-fashioned fire and brimstone, hell to burn the great sinner in. Hell to burn the great sinner in. And he says here, "Now Joseph's career and fearful end are to my heart and knows exactly the same over again. Same emotion, same smell, coming now from the smoking rifles of those treacherous Carthage grays. So let us say, Don Juan, and introduce Joseph's amorous history as such. It is now a wellestablished historical fact that the origin of Mormon polygamy or celestial marriage. There's another here's a outside observer who comes into Utah and recognizes that when Mormons use the phrase celestial marriage they're talking about polygamy not.

>> Good point.

>> Eternal ceilings.

>> That's what he used to mean.

>> Yeah. Uh, he says that or celestial mar celestial marriage was nothing but the unbounded and ungoverned passion of the prophet for the other sex. Joseph and John de Lee were the most li lemonous men I ever knew. says my friend Webb and again that sheds be Chanty Webb who knew the prophet for 11 years. He said Joseph was the most lentious and Brigham Young the most bloodthirsty of men says M says uh Mrs. Sarah Pratt who has known all these Mormon leaders during almost their whole career in the church. These people who leave the church they're still in Salt Lake City. It's just like, you know, here we are talking about Mormonism and we're still in this space listening to what LDS leaders say. Uh, we're paying attention to what the church is doing, when it calls new leaders, when it when it makes some change in its program, uh, when it abandons some doctrine. Here we are watching it as observers. And the ex Mormons that are spoken to for these interviews are doing the same thing. They still live in Utah. They're still paying attention. They're still watching this church that they at one time loved with all their heart and now realize that they've been betrayed. And uh, we shouldn't just toss out their statements without taking seriously some of the things that they've said. So with that, uh, let's jump here in. So I'm on on this slide here. I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind reading the uh thing there at the bottom. uh that's boxed in and then it sort of finishes there in the top right and then I'll take and then I'll take the the sections there that are underlined.

>> Okay. So, this is Mrs. P. Is that Mrs. Pratt? That's going to be Sarah Pratt.

>> I don't think this is Mrs. Pratt. Um, he notes that some people were anonymous and then there were other people that he named at the beginning. So, um, for instance, when we get to Mr. or Mrs. W that is uh Chanty Webb and his wife and I forget her name but I think it's either Eliza Jane or Annaliza might be the wife number 19 his daughter. Um, but when he Mrs. W is Mrs. Webb and uh Mr. W is Chanty Webb. Mrs. uh Sarah Pratt is mentioned at multiple times in this. There are other people who are named but in many instances these people wanted to remain anonymous.

>> Okay. Okay. All right, Mrs. P. Well, he talks about Mrs. Pratt Pratt in the um uh immediately above this. So maybe it is. I don't know. But this is the quote. Okay. Everyone knew everyone knew in Nauvoo. Everyone knew in Nauvoo that the Partridge girls lived with Joseph a long time before he got his celebrated revelation about celestial marriage. Dated July 12th, 1843. By the way, Bill.

>> Yeah.

>> It is an interesting thing, isn't it, that this perspective that he was living with the partridge sisters well before he got this revelation?

>> Yeah.

>> Why do we think that he had a revelation before this? Other than that he said so.

>> Yeah. There there isn't any indication other than women and girls who before the revelation was received claimed they were approached by Joseph Smith or the data shows they were approached by Joseph Smith and that he's entering some sort of intimate relationship with with them.

>> Yeah. Well, I think I just think it's interesting to me. Anyway, um, and we go to 1836, right? Because of the ceiling keys and then that becomes important when we're trying to talk about Fanny Alger. Yeah. There just seems to be a consistent effort by Joseph Smith and other persons to keep backdating the receipt of this original revelation from July 12th, 1843 to keep making it go back further and further in time and I think obviously to encompass more and more conduct, adulterous conduct. Okay. The Partridge girls were very goodnatured, says Mrs. B. After Joseph's death, one was sealed to Bighgam and the other to Apostle Amassa Lyman. Joseph's taste was of very large dimensions. He loved them old and young, pretty and homely. He sometimes seduced mothers to keep them quiet about his connection with their daughters. There was an old woman called Dery. She knew a good deal about the prophet's amorous adventures. And to keep her quiet, he admitted her to the secret blessings of celestial bliss. I didn't think that she was ever sealed to him. I don't think she was ever sealed to him, though it may have been the case after Joseph's death when the temple was finished. At all events, she boasted here in Salt Lake of having been one of Joseph's wives. Hec Kimell and Brigham Young took the lion share of the division of Joseph's wives after his death. Joseph had a number of lady friends, sealed or not, excuse me, sealed or not sealed, who permitted him to use their houses as a kind of asignation houses for rendevous with other women. Why does Brigham Young need to get married? Why does Hebrew C. Kimell need to get married to Joseph's wives after he's passed away? I don't know. Is it is it and I'm asking this question legitimately? Is it for the same reason? I mean, didn't Solomon marry all of David's wives or you know those kinds of things that happen? Is that true? Or is it when you conquer a king, you marry all their wives? But um I think it's power. I think that marrying Joseph's wives and as many of them as you can gives you multiple connections. I guess it has to be made stronger by multiple wives or something to Joseph Smith because he's apparently the only guy who's got the golden ticket into heaven. You know, we would make the when you look at this, a believer would make the argument like, okay, now they're widowed. They need to be taken care of. But when we read the stories of these women, many of them speak to not being cared for very well at all by Brigham Young. Um, and so if it's not about care, if it's and by the way, Hebrew C. Kimell, same thing. If it's not about care, it's not it's not theologically needed. They're already sealed to Joseph. They've already got their eternal mate for time and all eternity. They don't need to be sealed to someone else. That doesn't make any sense. They don't even married in the temple even for time only to someone else who says this is who it has to be. They should have been allowed to just go do their thing like to go find whatever healthy relationship they were capable of finding at that point. Instead Brigham and Hebrew C. Kimbell and a few others came along and just snatched all those women up. Uh, it's sort of a strange thing and we just we never really talk about it in this way where we ask why it happened, why it was needed and address whether the reasons given make any sense at all. The person on the left there is uh Dery. That would be Elizabeth Davis Dery, plural wife of Joseph Smith. And I just I just note that she went around bragging about being a pres a plural wife of Joseph Smith as a badge of honor.

>> Um, it was a badge of honor in Salt Lake City.

>> Yeah.

>> So you could have people bragging about it maybe who weren't.

>> Yep. Um, but but this is one of the women who is acknowledged as being a plural wife of Joseph Smith. Mrs. P says she's not sure if a ceiling took place before or after Joseph's death. Um, but Elizabeth Davis Dery is lift listed as a plural wife of Joseph Smith. And it's just noted that she was a little bit of one of the one of the women a little bit older in age when it happened. So it says here uh well an old and this is again a different story. This is Mr. and I think it's Mr. Joe. I don't know what who that is but um he says well an old Mormon who had been very intimate with Joseph in Nauvoo assured me that the prophet always carried a small bottle of holy oil about his person so that he might anoint at a moment's notice any woman to be a queen in heaven. And I don't know if that's true or not, but if it's true, I think it's interesting that we Mormons put a lot of emphasis on priesthood blessings, on carrying vials of oil around with us. We often talk about the ordinances of the temple are deeply connected to polygamy in the early history. And I think it's at least worth noting that priesthood blessings and and again I know they're found in the Bible and there's a biblical reference to that, but their early prevalence in Mormonism could just as well have a heavy connection to polygamy as much as truly trying to use priesthood power to make people be healed and and have them uh recover from illnesses and and things that are uh plaguing Um.

>> Polygamy, I know it's hard for us to understand it so well now. I know that Dan Vogel does, and hopefully he'll correct me if I get this wrong, but I mean, polygamy is so different uh from what we tend to think because it was well, it's like the second anointing. I mean, it is an ordinance of absolute secrecy. We still have the secrecy in the temple.

>> This is an ordinance of absolute secrecy that those who enter into into it must be kept secret. keep it secret and perhaps involves anointing with oil. That would not be surprising.

>> No, it wouldn't. Uh, Hebrew seek. And by the way, I'll try to note what stories I think have some merit to them. I'll try to acknowledge that ones that we just don't know. And there's one or two in here that I think are uh we can refute and say probably didn't happen or at least not in their current uh description. But this one says Hebrew C. Kimble. And again, this is still Mr. Joe. Hebrew C. Kimell, Brigham's alter ego, said as follows. I sat once with Joseph in his office in the mansion house. He looked out of the window and saw weeding in a garden a young married woman whom we both knew. He told me to go to her and request her to come to him, and he would have her sealed to him this very moment. I went and told the woman to come to brother Joseph. She ran to the house to comb her hair and fix up generally, then followed me to the prophet. I performed the ceiling ceremony and retired. So, this person's claiming that they were there and performed the uh I'm sorry, they're saying that Hebrew C. Kimble uh had said that that had happened. I don't know if it did. I know that Joseph Smith had intimate relationships with a lot of women that there are uh direct evidence of him manipulating people like Lucy Walker and I again if I step out of Mormonism I'm not I'm not talking to the believer and trying to build a bridge so that they believe what I'm saying and start to think about these things more deeply. Instead, I'm talking to the post Mormons and I'm saying, if you have a reputation of constantly trying to be a philanderer and you're constantly trying to get in bed with women and children, and you're manipulating women and children, at that point, I can't put it past that kind of person to do something like this. Um, so I don't know if it's true or not, but it's not my job to give Joseph Smith the benefit of the doubt because he hasn't earned that.

>> No.

>> Sorry.

>> Is that a noise? Was that a sound effect, Bill?

>> It shouldn't happen again. It's a notification coming on my computer.

>> Oh, I thought it was that Wahwah thing and I kept walking into it. Um, the thing that is shocking is that based upon the historical record that is generally accepted by historians, this story is not shocking. That's what's shocking about it. In other words, this is completely believable that Joseph Smith might do something like this. And isn't this sort of what Mosiah Hancock says happened with his father and and Joseph and Fanny Alier? that that that Mosiah says Levi was made an agreement with Joseph to sort of procure uh Fanny Alger for Joseph Smith and then right away performed the ceiling ordinance and said the words that Joseph told him to say.

>> It's his mo have somebody else go and do the asking.

>> Yeah. Uh, Mr. JWC says Joseph knew himself well. He said to one of his intimate friends, "If the Lord had not taken me in hand, I would have become the greatest of the world."

>> What?

>> And to another friend, he said, "Whenever I see a pretty face, I have to pray for grace." If if we grant that Joseph Smith is trying to be a spiritual leader and he has a deep desire to be intimate with lots of women and female children. The record shows that at least in part that's true. So there's these two quotes. There's also a quote from Mlelen, which I don't have here, but William Mlelen said something like, "Joseph Smith one day was bragging about one of his plural wives and how much pleasure she could give. She was better at sex essentially than the others uh or at least at some things sexually." So, it's not just this source. There's another source that points to Joseph sort of talking out loud about his weakness for women. Um, and of course he's only talking adult women here, but the the history says also children. Um, so I thought that was interesting as well. Any thoughts from you on that one?

>> That word that you said is a W with a line.

>> Yeah, it's a W with a line, but I'm almost certain that what that word is supposed to be is It's obviously a bad word. What bad words do you know that start with W.

>> That would fit in this sentence?

>> Because womanizer is not a bad word, but that would fit better to me.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

>> Love you with a line. And that was common in, you know, older publications in order to avoid saying things that you weren't supposed to say.

>> Right? If the Lord had not taken me in hand, I would have become the greatest and I think it's of the world. Uh, okay. So, there's that. Then this last one here, uh, Mrs. White, very pretty and always very fashionably dressed. She was in the habit of being very hospitable to the captains of the steamboats. Uh, Mrs. White, we'll we'll hear a story later on that involves her, but she has something to do with the ferry boat there in Nauvoo, and she ran a a wh house essentially.

>> A W house.

>> Yeah, a W line house. And uh, and again, two witnesses in these accounts say that Joseph Smith visited uh, this establishment and helped pay for the expenses of the establishment. Uh, it says here, I'll just say Mrs. white, very pretty, and always very fashionably dressed. She was in the habit of being very hospitable to the captains of the steamboats. And remember, Joseph, at least for a time, uh, was the captain of the steamboat there. And eventually he let other members take that over. But he did that. Joseph of Iowa.

>> Yep. The maid of Iowa. Yep. Joseph was one of her customers and used to contribute to the expenses of her establishment. So there's that. Uh, by the way, there is a vintage vial. This would have been similar to what Mormons would have carried around.

>> The oil.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, that's what I always did with my vial of anointed holy oil was I would anoint women as queens of heaven.

>> Yeah. Uh, you have to do something to get them to sleep with you. And telling them that they are secured salvation in the life hereafter seems to work pretty well.

>> They love that.

>> They do. Will you read this one here on the left and then I'll take these little ones on the right?

>> Okay. Um, here we go. I was servant in the house of a Mr. Ford, a merchant who had a store in Nauvoo. He was want to go by steamer to St. Louis to make purchases. Whenever Mr. Ford was absent from his house, the prophet used to call on Mrs. Ford. He would come chat with her a while and then they would retire to the lady's chamber. For a while I saw nothing in this, being a very young, innocent girl and very strong in the faith. But some way or other suspicion arose in my mind. So when Joseph called again, Mr. Ford had gone to St. Louis the day before. I could not master my curiosity anymore. I followed the pair stealthily and putting my eye to the keyhole, I saw long line. So in other words, it's like a blank. I saw fill in the blank here. The poor woman gave me a description of a scene which was surely calculated to shake even the most fanatic faith. But this is not all, she said. Whenever Mr. Ford came home from St. Louis, he used to complain about business. I cannot understand it. He used to say when I am here, money comes in all the time and when I I am away, not a red scent gets into the house. Now, the explanation is very simple. Whenever Joseph had prayed with Mrs. Ford had prayed with Mrs. Ford, she used to give him all the money in the till to the last scent. Since that time, I do ask myself sometimes whether Joseph was really the right kind of a prophet.

>> Yeah. And again, she claims that she was there. She's the one who who walked in on this stuff or or looked in the keyhole and saw it. Um, is that true? Is it not? I don't know. But some of these accounts, and we'll see one here on this next slide, some of these accounts, I think um, there's enough uh corroborative data to to say that the thing did happen. So, Mrs. D says a Mrs. Granger proved a very reliable and useful friend to the prophet. He was once at her house in bed and not alone. The bed had old-fashioned curtains. All at once, sister Emma, the prophet's wife, came in and said excitedly to Mr. Granger.

>> "Is brother Joseph here?"

>> By the way, I'll say to the story you just read, RFM, I didn't put up a bunch of these, but it reminded me of all these moments where Joseph when I had gone when I was joining the church and reading uh the early history, I was reading things in the like the BH Roberts history of the church and the um what do they call the other one? Manuscript history of the church with the day-to-day things. And you would see all of these moments where Joseph is someone runs into Joseph Smith and says, "You owe me money."

>> Mhm.

>> And Smith and Joseph on a multitude of occasions like goes to someone's house, gets the money really quickly from someone, and then comes back and pays the person off.

>> Yes. Joseph seemed to always be accumulating debts and robbing Peter to pay Paul to take care of that.

>> Heard you read, you know, when you're reading the story about the the young person working in the store and Smith is upstairs sleeping with the wife while the husband's away, but he's also getting money from Mrs. Ford. There's a part of that story that reminds me of all these moments where Joseph seems to be able to get money quickly, but not his money. He gets it from all kinds of people in all kinds of places and is constantly having to pay off debts that he's also constantly making.

>> Yes. Yes. Passing observation. Don't know if this is intentional or just a coincidence, but in that one on the left that I read,

>> It cast I mean this is the Merry Wives of Windsor. The two wives, one of them is a Mrs. Ford, and it cast Joseph Smith, not as Don Juan there, but as fall staff, who's visiting them, of course, well, he's doing his best to have his way with them, but ultimately their virtue remains intact, and they are faithful to their husband, and he is discomforted. Yeah. So, but in this instance, uh, that's not quite how that it ends. Uh, it appears that again, according to this account, that Joseph Smith is sleeping with Mrs. Ford and has stolen her virtue. Yeah. Well, okay. So, that other one, uh, I do love how Mrs. D puts that when she says he was once, this is Joseph Smith, he was once at her house in bed and not alone. [laughter]

>> Yeah. The bed had old-fashioned curtains. All at once, Sister Emma, the prophet's wife, came in. By the way, knowing the Fanny Alger story, knowing the Partridge sisters and how Emma reacted to that, knowing that Emma constantly had to see her husband bringing girls into the home and finding opportunities to sleep with women in the city and women that Emma at first doesn't suspect. It does make sense that Emma would sort of be walking behind Joseph Smith trying to check in on him all the time trying to figure out whether in this day he's being whether he's practicing fidelity or not.

>> So it says here u the bed had old-fashioned curtains all at once, Sister Emma, the prophet's wife, came in and said exact said excitedly to Mrs. Granger, "Is brother Joseph here?" Of course, he was there. He was on the bed behind the curtain. No, said Mrs. Granger. He had just been in, but went out again, getting Sister Emma out of the house as hurriedly as possible. Joseph used to tell his intimate friends how dreadfully he had felt in that bed, expecting every minute, every moment that his wife might look behind the curtains. Uh, Mrs. J, Eliza Partridge, one of the many girls sealed to the prophet, used to sew in Emma's room. Once while Joseph was absent, Emma got to fighting with Eliza and threw her down the stairs that finished my sewing there, Eliza used to say. And then this last one, Joseph kept, we read this the other day. This again is Chanty Webb. Joseph kept eight girls in his house, calling them his daughters. Emma threatened that she would leave the house, and Joseph told her, "All right, you can go." she went. But when Joseph reflected that such a scandal would hurt his prophetic dignity, he followed his wife and brought her back. But the eight daughters had to leave the house. And I'll just note the thing there on the very far right. Um, this is where we get the Lucy Walker account from. I don't remember the name of this book, but it's a bunch of memoirs in it. And one of them is Lucy Walker Kimell, who records her own experience, her own reminiscence. reminiscences about her life. And she says, I've got an underline there. It's really small, but she says, "The prophet and his wife introduced us." That's her and her sister. They introduced us as their sons and daughters because they also had two other kids that were boys from the Walker family. And so, the prophet and his wife introduced Lucy Walker and her siblings as their sons and daughters. And so when we hear Chanty Webb say that Joseph Smith kept eight girls in the house, there shouldn't be anything about that that we would automatically want to strike down as untrue because we know of a whole host of girls that have lived in that home, many at the same time. And uh I've only learned just in the last few weeks doing the Fanny Alger some of those names that I hadn't even known before. And so there are more of them than I thought there were. Um, so that shouldn't be surprising either. And the fact that he calls Lucy uh that the fact that he calls those girls his daughters shouldn't surprise us either because Lucy Walker says the same thing happened to her. Um, so I just note that and I there's a couple of things here. Um, Eliza Maria Partridge uh evidence of sexuality. Um, two references from Benjamin F. Johnson.

>> Alexa stop. On music.

>> I don't know why it's doing that. Sorry. Alexa, stop.

>> It begins.

>> I have no idea what the hell's going on in my house.

>> Uh, it says, "Two references from a Benjamin F. Johnson indicate that this marriage was consummated. 1903, Jose Johnson wrote, "The first plural wife brought to my house with whom the prophet stayed was Eliza Partridge." Again, we've talked about the Partridge children, the Partridge girls. A year later, Benjamin penned a letter to the Desireette News. And we talked about Benjamin Johnson during that founder Fanny Elger episode. He says, quote, I saw one of my sisters married to him and know that with her he occupied my house May 16th and 17th, 1843, which he had occupied with Eliza Partridge, another plural wife, on the 2nd of the previous month. And I say this because in this previous document, you've got Eliza Partridge there. One of the many girls sealed to the prophet used to sew in Emma's room once while Joseph was absent. Emma got to fighting with Eliza, threw her down the stairs that finished my sewing there, Eliza used to say. And uh, it's just to note that this was a sexual relationship. Brian Hails uh shows evidence of that. He's not disputing it. Um, and there's also this understanding that often Smith seems to go to one of his wives homes, some house that's uh a safe place to talk about and practice polygamy so that he can bring one of his other plural wives into the home and be intimate with her. And that's what some of these stories uh speak about as well. I'll note here Emily Dao Partridge Smith Young on the witness stand recollections of a plural wife. I think this is interesting and this is one of those instances because I want you to note that Elizabeth Buchanan is a plural wife of Joseph Smith and Sylvia Sessions is a plural wife of Joseph Smith. And so Emily Dao Partridge, the other Partridge sister says this. She says, "Emma was present at the ceiling of at our ceiling as she's talking firsthand, but because of the context of the web page where the quote is, they needed to designate who it was that was they were talking about." But Emma was present at the ceiling of Emily and Eliza. She gave her free and full consent. She had always up to this time been very kind to me and my sister Eliza who was also married to the prophet Joseph Smith with Emma's consent. But ever after she was our enemy. In other words, in the previous page we talk about this story where the Partridge sisters are living in the Smith home. I think it's I think it's Emily. Yeah, Eliza, sorry. Eliza Partridge is doing this sewing for Emma. Joseph uh is absent. Emma gets to fighting with Eliza and throws her down the stairs. And Eliza says, "That finished my sewing there." Um, and I'm just pointing out that when we.

Look at this account. We get at least some backing of this, uh, of the Partridge sisters living there and that Emma becoming their enemy. And so it says, "But ever after she was our enemy, she used every means in her power to injure us in the eyes of her husband and before strangers, and in consequence of her abuse, we were obliged to leave the city to gratify her. But things were overruled otherwise, and we remained in Nauvoo."

My sister Eliza found a home with the family of brother Joseph Culage, and I went to live with sister Sylvia, uh, Lions. So, brother Joseph Kulage is married to Elizabeth Buchanan Kulage, who's a plural wife of Joseph Smith. And Sister Sylvia Lions, Sylvia Sessions, is also a plural wife of Joseph Smith. And so when the Partridge sisters are kicked out of the Smith home by Emma, Joseph places those girls in the homes of other plural wives of his, which are obviously going to create a safe space where he can show up and continue to be intimate with the Partridge sisters. He doesn't want them to leave the town, and he doesn't want them to live together either for whatever reason. Again, remember the Partridge sisters didn't even know that each other was sealed to Joseph Smith. That he had kept it secret from each of them about the other.

[clears throat] And so there's, and from Emma. So there's some degree of him trying to keep them distant from talking to the other about these things. If there's anybody out there who doesn't know, and that sounds like it didn't make sense. Joseph Smith married each of them individually. The two Partridge sisters, Laura and Tracy, before he asked Emma if he could marry somebody. And, uh, she finally says, "Okay." And he gives it to her to pick. And she says, "Okay, well, you can marry, um, these two sisters." And Joseph knows he's already married them. And they both know they're already married to Joseph, but they go through with it anyway as a charade to satisfy Emma and keep her in the dark that they'd already been married. That's the story, right, Bill? Yeah. And he doesn't tell, uh, Eliza about Emily, and he doesn't tell Emily about Eliza. And as you point out, Emma is on the outside of the whole thing. And, uh, and then when they get kicked out of the home, for him to split them up and place them individually in the homes of other plural wives of his, again, if you stop giving him the benefit of the doubt, that just seems on every level, at every turn, the unhealthiest of things that a man can do in order to continue to secure opportunity to be intimate with these children. And then again, they're they're young adults, 19 and 21, I think. Um, but in all regards, still children. Oh, read the last sentence. My sister, oh, sorry. She was a good woman and one of the Lord's chosen few. Again, a plural wife of Joseph Smith. But even her, she doesn't seem because she mentions brother Joseph Culage. She mentions Sylvia Lion, Sylvia Sessions, and notes that she's a plural wife of Joseph Smith. But instead of giving the other plural wife's name, she mentions Joseph Culage as if she doesn't even know that Elizabeth Buchanan is also a plural wife of Joseph Smith.

Um, and she may not. And she may have found out from Sylvia Lions after she was living with her. Yeah. So anyway, that, I, I think that at least needs to be noted and give some collaborative evidence to the story shared about what Emma did. Whether Emma threw her down the stairs or not, I don't know. There are multiple accounts, whether it's Eliza, Roxy Snow, things going on with Fanny Alger, and then here with the one Partridge sister where we get some sense of Emma being angry. I think also Eliza was rumored to be thrown down the stairs at some point, too. Yeah, Emma threw people down the stairs like hell wasn't having any. You just had to be careful. Damn careful every time you went down the stairs in that house.

Yep. And so I'll just show the Buchanan thing here. This is a deed, by the way, just to go back to the evidence that given to single women in Nauvoo, which almost entirely signified that being a plural wife of Joseph Smith. We get from the University of Virginia, their Mormon studies department. I did not see this on the Wikipedia page of Joseph's wives. I didn't see anything in Brian Hail's, uh, data, but they at least note it here. Joseph W. Kulage and Elizabeth Buchanan were married civily in 1834 in Illinois, not far from where Nauvoo would be built 5 years later. It is unknown when exactly Joseph and Elizabeth's marriage became polygamist. In August 1870, Kulage stated Joseph Smith had sealed more than one wife to him. He did not specify the women's names or the dates of these sealings. Scholars argue they would have been first wife Elizabeth and her younger sister Mary Anne Buchanan. In January of 1846, Al Elizabeth Jane Tuttle and Rebecca Atwood were sealed to Coolage in the newly completed Nauvoo Temple, followed a month later by Rosilla Rosilla M. Carter. And it's just a note that there is evidence that again, Elizabeth Buchanan is a plural wife of Joseph Smith. And two, this idea like you, let me get a woman that you're going to have to help me with, and I'll help you get a woman, uh, in a short time later after you get me taken care of. These arrangements come up a bit in Mormonism. Sorry. These, uh, instances come up a bit more.

Is that angry Alice? I think you have Rebecca's dog over there. Hopefully, she'll open the door here and let him out. Okay. Um, all right. So, there's that. Uh, let's move on to the next one here. And then this is a deed to Lydia Dibble Granger. Again, remember we mentioned the Granger lady earlier. Let me go back to that just to, uh, Oh, yeah. I think I do remember Granger. Uh, like Steuart Granger. Uh, that top right one. A Mrs. stranger proved a very reliable and useful friend to the prophet. He was once at her house in bed and not alone. Remember the bed with the curtain, and, uh, and Joseph and another woman are hiding. Well, they're having sex behind the curtain, and, uh, when Emma comes, they get quiet and she tells them that Joseph isn't here. So, just to show that here we have a deed to, uh, Lydia Dibble Granger, which is almost certainly that Granger being mentioned. And then we also have Benjamin Johnson's, uh, account. Benjamin F. Johnson mentions the name of Dibble as a wife of Joseph Smith. The woman's name was Lydia Dibble Granger. It appears that she was sealed to Hyram Smith and not Joseph Smith. The year of the sealing may have been 1843. Landon W. Cook has her sealed to Joseph Smith. Lydia Dibble, also sealed to the prophet during his lifetime, was sealed a second time in the Salt Lake Endowment House, 8 June 1851. I just, I just want you to know like the names they're throwing out have an absolute connection to early polygamy. And, [clears throat] it's not like this Granger person is some made-up character. Um, it's a real, uh, plural wife in early Mormon history to either Joseph Smith or Hyram. And so there's that.

Okay. Will you, will you read this story here on the left, and then I'll take the small one on the right? Yes. Let me just find it here on the slides and start with, uh, Yeah. Yeah. Start with she. So it's the very first full sentence. She, and who is the she? Is it Emma? Um, no, no, no. This is, uh, Eliza. Uh, this is Eliza Snow. Okay. So she was one of the first willing victims of Joseph in Nauvoo. She used to be much at the prophet's house, and sister Emma treated her as a confidential friend. Very much interested about Joseph's errands, Emma used to send Eliza after him as a spy. Joseph found it out and to win over the gifted exclamation point young poetress, poetess, he made her one of his celestial brides. There is scarcely a Mormon unacquainted with the fact that Sister Emma, on the other side, [clears throat] soon found out the little compromise arranged between Joseph and Eliza. Feeling outraged as a wife and betrayed as a friend, Emma is currently reported as having had recourse to a vulgar broomstick as an instrument of revenge. And the harsh treatment received at Emma's hands is said to have destroyed Eliza's hopes of becoming the mother of a prophet's son. Oh my gosh, this is, um, pretty gruesome. So far, one of my best informed witnesses. Now, that is a complete sentence as it's written. So far, one of my best informed witnesses. Period. Her story becomes corroborated by another reliable source. Elder Bullock, who was a church historian at that time, used to tell the following little tale. Used to tell. Someone's telling him this. It's on the prior page. Quote, "Um, Joseph said on the morning of the first parade of the Nauvoo Legion, 'This is the proudest day of my life.' Many people believe that this outburst of pride was entirely of a military character. But I and some other intimate friends of the prophet knew very well that he was proud of another thing. Not of a parade, but of a conquest. The conquest of Eliza." You know, this kind of reads like the Inquirer, the National Inquirer that you pick up in the, uh, grocery aisle.

Yeah. And I think, I think, um, when I read these stories and I see them being not only like the person didn't experience the thing firsthand, some of them they did, but in this instance, you have a person telling you what others said. And I'm not convinced of this story. Um, but I will note that Elder Bullock, which would be Thomas, uh, Bullock, uh, was clerk at the April 1844 General Conference of the church and assistant to church historian and recorder Willard Richards from 1842 to 1854. And so the, the mention of Elder Bullock, Thomas Bullock, also giving some, uh, corroborative, uh, testimony to this event happening and that he was a church historian has some truth to it at least in part.

Yeah. But all these people came from there, right? What's that? All these, Well, most of these people who live there, they came from there. So they would know the people involved, especially the famous people, right? Yeah. Yep. Um, and so you get on the right, Mrs. P. You hear often that Joseph had no polygamous offspring. The reason of this is very simple. Abortion was practiced on a large scale in Nauvoo. Dr. John C. Bennett, the evil genius of Joseph, brought this abomination into a scientific system. He showed to my husband and to me the instruments with which he used to operate for Joseph. There was a house in Nauvoo right across the flat about a mile and a half from the town, a kind of hospital. They sent the women there. When they showed signs of celestial consequence consequences, abortion was practiced regularly in this house. And Mrs. H said, "Many little bodies of newborn children floated down the Mississippi." Now, how much truth to that, who knows? But we do get some, uh, corroboration of this, and it comes from Hyram Smith. And so there were, uh, put into the, I believe it was into the newspaper, but at least in some way it was in written form. You can see on the right hand side, these are multiple affidavits. It's a dozen at least. And one of them, the one on the very far left column, very, the very bottom half there, is the affidavit of Hyram Smith. And I did make this part bigger. It actually goes for, uh, almost two full columns, and I didn't include all of it, but I've got this part which says that this is Hyram Smith talking, and he's talking about John C. Bennett. And he says that he would give them medicine to procure abortions, providing they should become pregnant. One of these witnesses, a married woman that he attended upon in his professional capacity. And it goes on to talk about her experience. But here you have the brother of the prophet, Joseph Smith, writing out an affidavit and testifying that in fact, John C. Bennett did perform abortions in Nauvoo. We know that Joseph and John C. Bennett are good friends for quite a while, and, uh, that John Bennett says he wanted to practice the same spiritual wiferey or wiffery that Joseph Smith was practicing, and that, uh, at least on some level, what John C. Bennett was doing was out of hand. And Smith at that point tries to create a discrepancy between what he's doing, calling it celestial marriage, and what John C. Bennett's doing, called spiritual wifery, and, uh, and making the one bad and the other good. Um, I don't know if Joseph Smith ever had John C. Bennett perform an abortion for him. I will say Joseph Smith, even according to Brian Hails, was sexual with many of his plural wives, and we don't ever get an offspring. And there can be lots of reasons for that. And it doesn't need to be just one reason, but at least on some level, even Hyram Smith's admitting that John C. Bennett, a cohort of Joseph's for a while, is performing abortions in Nauvoo. Well, I'm sure this is after he's been excommunicated, and now he's a, uh, a person that needs to have bad things said about, you know, he left in May 11th. He was excommunicated. John C. Bennett, May 11th, 1842. I looked it up while you were talking. Um, that's two years before Joseph is dead. Joseph is up and running for two years. And I know that more people than just one can perform abortions. Okay? And yet, I think it was a little, it's always John C. Bennett, right, in these affidavits. He's the guy who knows how. He was a doctor, whatever that meant at in the day. You could be called a doctor without having gone to medical school. So he's the doctor, right? So he performs the abortions, and that takes care of the children who are being, um, uh, impregnated with in celestial wives prior to May 11th, 1842. And he's excommunicated. But what's happening for the next two years? And why are, who's performing the abortions then? And if nobody's performing them, why are there no apparent children that can be traced to Joseph Smith yet?

That's my question. Right? And you know, people pose lots of solutions to that that you can sort of try. Again, Joseph has plenty of opportunities, and he's taking advantage of them with lots of women. He can, along with that woman, be very selective about what time of the month he, uh, is intimate with them. Uh, we do know that while, uh, a much more primitive form of it, that prophylactics, uh, existed back then, and so there can be lots of reasons for why that is. Um, but even again, even the church's expert on this issue, Brian Hails, agrees that many of these relationships were in fact sexual. Uh, okay. So there's a couple more accounts of these abortions. Will you take that one on the left, and then I'll grab the small one there on the right? Yes, I'd be happy to. Um, I have told you, this is, this is a quote. Um, "I have told you that the prophet Joseph used to frequent houses of ill fame. Mrs. White, a very pretty and attractive woman." That was her same description before, right? Yep. Wait a second. Is this the same story? Uh, this is the same story, but then it continues. But, uh, this, I think, is being told by another person now. Uh, I'll go double check while you're reading it, but I think this is being told by another person now. Okay. Because it goes on to say, "Mrs. White, a very, uh, pretty and attractive woman, once confessed to me that she made a business of it to be hospitable to the captains of the Mississippi Steamboats. She told me that Joseph had made her acquaintance very soon after his arrival in Nauvoo, and that he had visited her dozens of times." Yeah, I thought it was kind of a swamp when Joseph got there, and it was commerce, but not sure. My husband Orson Pratt. Okay, so this obviously supposed to be Sarah. My husband could not be induced to believe such things of his prophet. Seeing his obstinate incredulity, Mrs. White proposed to Mr. Pratt and myself. So is she saying to Orson and Sarah to put us in a position where we could observe what was going on between herself and Joseph the prophet? We, however, declined this proposition. You have made a mistake in the table of contents of your book in calling this woman Mrs. Harris. Now, [clears throat] I think this is Sarah Pratt talking to the author, right? Uh, I think so. And I'll just note, um, let me take this off the screen. I'll put this one up. In this account, it's a, uh, a pretty and always very fashionably dressed Mrs. White, but this is also Mrs. P. So this is also, I believe, Mrs. Pratt. Okay. Both accounts are coming from her, but they are different tellings of the story. So, apparently, she's saying that you've got the name wrong. It wasn't M. No, it, you had the name wrong originally. It wasn't Mrs. Harris. It was Mrs. White, right? So Mrs. Harris was a married lady, a very great friend of mine. When Joseph had made his dastardly attempt on me, Sarah Pratt says, "I went to Mrs. Harris to unbosom my grief to her. To my utter astonishment," she said, laughing heartily, "How foolish you are. I don't see anything so horrible in it. Why, I am his mistress since four years." Exclamation point. And, and just to note here, this starts off with the story about Mrs. White, the lady who runs the horror house down by the ferry. But what ends up happening is that Sarah Pratt then goes to Lucinda Harris, Mrs. Mrs. George Harris's wife, and, and says to her, "You're not going to believe this." And she says, "How foolish you are. I don't see anything so horrible in it. Why, I am his mistress for four years." Mhm. Why wouldn't we believe that when we know Lucinda Harris actually is a plural wife of Joseph Smith, that the relationship on some level seems to be kept secret to the extent where Thomas Marsh and his wife allegedly have this dispute over milk strippings, and they're not aware that Joseph Smith is, uh, Lucinda Harris's, uh, husband, plural husband essentially, and, um, that he has no, his wife has no chance to to win this dispute. Again, whether that story happened or not, why would we doubt that Sarah Pratt recognizes that only when she's, uh, encountering Mrs. Harris face to face and trying to confide in her what, uh, polygamous nonsense she's seeing Joseph Smith do to only have Mrs. Harris tell Sarah Pratt how foolish you are. I don't see anything so horrible in it. Why, I am his mistress since four years. We know that she's a plural wife of Joseph. I just don't see any reason to not believe that story.

Oh, I think that she knows that, um, she was that Miss Harris, Lucinda, was a plural wife of Joseph. I think that, um, Hey, Bill. Yeah. Yeah. You'll see people testifying later to the credibility of Sarah Pratt, uh, including, um, upstanding citizens in the, uh, town. Uh, so we'll see that in a moment. All faithful Mormons know that she's a liar from the beginning. Yeah. Sarah Pratt. [laughter] And, uh, Ann Eliza Webb. Yeah. And William Mlen. And William Law. Liars. Liars. All liars. Yeah. And you know, you go on and on and on. Everybody who becomes disillusioned with Mormonism and steps away and criticizes it on any degree, their, uh, credibility as a witness is, uh, deeply diminished by, uh, apologists or leaders of the church to the believing members of the church. I think there was a message of the new prophet Dan H. jokes in his first public address, and that you should avoid them. Yeah, that's the game that the church has always played. But let's ask ourselves, if we go back through all the history, has the critic been right over and over and over again about the crazy things that have happened in Mormonism? Or has it been this nice, clean, sanitized story that the believers would like to hold on to? And again, the church has had to concede so much ground. Mhm. Acknowledging Joseph lied to Emma, acknowledging Joseph had relationships with children. Uh, acknowledging that, uh, polygamy went underground and that it didn't actually end in 1890. Again, every turn acknowledging that the, the race ban was just a disavowed theory instead of a doctrine. Every step along the way, the church has had to go, you know, these stories more times than not turn out to be true enough that we have to change our history and our theology. Um, maybe, maybe we don't have to give the benefit of the doubt to the church when they try to, um, portray these stories as not true. Maybe we should require enough evidence to say these stories are not true. And in this instance, we have enough background to know that Lucinda Harris was in fact a plural wife of Joseph. Um, in this bottom story here, you get Bennett wanted me to return to him a book. Again, this is still, uh, Pratt. So Bennett wanted me to return to him a book I had borrowed from him. It was a so-called doctor book. I had rapid, I had a rapidly growing little family and wanted to inform myself about certain matters in regard to babies, etc. This is, this explains my having borrowed the book. Because I didn't want to perform abortions. I just want to make that clear. Right? And that's what she's trying to say is like, I had this for a good reason. It says, while giving Bennett his book, I observed that he held something in the left sleeve of his coat. Bennett smiled and said, "Oh, a little job for Joseph. One of his women is in trouble." Saying this, he took the thing out of his left sleeve. It was a pretty long instrument of a kind I'd never seen before. It seemed to be of steel and was crooked on one end. And so I just went looking for old vintage abortion instruments, uh, medical instruments to perform abortions. And this was one of those. And, uh, it sort of looks like in what she describes in that, uh, in that paragraph.

So, um, again, why do we not believe her? What are the reasons we choose not to believe Sarah Pratt? Because the story sounds so, so big, so unbelievable. But how many unbelievable stories are there about Joseph Smith and how he incorporates polygamy? So what would be your reasons for wanting to disbelieve Sarah Pratt, RFM? Do you like, I know the, I know the apologists would want us to look down upon these accounts, but what would be good reason for that, uh, to disbelieve her? I'm not sure. I'm not sure what reasons they would give. Uh, I'm sure they've caught her in some kind of contradiction somewhere, which proves that everything she's ever said is a lie. Yeah. Yeah. But then we wouldn't trust any of the early leaders of the church. No. Right. Okay. Will you read the ones on the left, and I'll, Yeah, I'll, I'll take the thing on the right, but that'll be a continuation of that one. Um, heard afterwards is where this one starts at the top of the page. Heard afterwards that the operation had been performed. Did that continue from the bottom of the prior one? Yep. Yes. I heard. Okay. I was on the bottom. I heard afterwards that the operation had been performed, that the woman was very sick, I can only imagine, and that Joseph was very much afraid that she might die, but she recovered. New story, the only wives of Joseph that lived in the mansion house were the Partridge girls. And wives is in quotation marks, by the way. We know that's not true. Yeah, we know that there are other wives living in the mansion house, but each because polygamy was so secretive and because Joseph is, uh, diddling children, of course, he's going to work really hard to keep that secret as much as he possibly can. So in these early accounts, often some members of the church knew about some of these instances, other members of the church knew about others of these instances, and many people didn't know anything. And often even those who knew something didn't know the other things that were going on in regards to polygamy. Mhm. Um, she had said, "This is explained by the fact that they were the servants in the hotel kept by the prophet, but when Emma found out that Joseph went to their room, they had to leave the house."

Yeah. And we, we know that's true. We know that Joseph goes into their room and is being intimate with them. That's what the data says. And I don't think anybody on the believing side besides the polygamy deniers is denying that. Um, okay. Uh, let, I'll take this big one here. You, you should bear in mind that Joseph did not think of a marriage or sealing ceremony for many years. Again, this is, this is Sarah Pratt. He used to say to his intended victims, as he did to me, "God does not care if we have a good time. If only other people do not know it." He only introduced a marriage ceremony when he found out that he could not get certain women without it. I think Louisa Bean was the first case of this kind. If any woman like me opposed his wishes, he used to say, "Be silent or I shall ruin your character. My character must be sustained in the interest of the church." That's what Joseph Smith is saying. When he assailed me, he saw that he could not seal my lips. He sent word to me that he would work my salvation if I kept silent. I sent back that I would talk as much as I pleased and as much as I knew to be the truth, and as to my salvation, I would try to take care of that myself. That's pretty bold of her. In his endeavors to ruin my character, Joseph went so far as to publish extra sheet containing affidavits against my reputation. By the way, we know this is true. He does go out of his way to ruin her reputation. With this sheet was brought to me, I discovered to my astonishment the name, the names of two people on it. A man and a wife with whom I had boarded for a certain time. I never thought much of the man. But the woman was an honest person, and I knew that she must have been forced to do such a thing against me. So I went to their house. The man left the house hurriedly when he saw me coming. I found the wife and said to her rather excitedly, "What does it all mean?" She began to sob. "It's not my fault," said she. Hyram Smith came to our house and with the affidavits all written out and forced us to sign them. By the way, isn't that what Joseph Smith did with the three and eight witnesses, writing out what, uh, had it already written out? Yep. Yeah. Let us introduce now a statement as to the reliability of Mrs. Pratt. Oh, sorry. Um, all written out and forced us to sign them. Joseph in the church must be saved, said he, Hyram Smith. We saw that resistance was useless. They would have ruined us. So, we signed the papers. Uh, let us introduce now a statement as to the reliability of Mrs. Pratt. She is well known in Salt Lake City and all over Utah, possessing all the virtues of an excellent wife and mother, but outsiders may wish to know of Mrs. Pratt's standing in this community. And I take pleasure in giving a testimonial. And it says, "We, the undersign." And they're testifying to her being an upright and honest person. And it's signed by Charles S. Zayn, Chief Justice of the Utah Territory, Arthur L. Thomas, Secretary of Utah Territory, and Reverend JW Jackson, USA Chaplain, Fort Douglas. Uh, so at least for whatever that's worth, ascribing to, uh, to her credibility. And I'll just note here again, we mentioned Lucy Harris, and the testimony of Sarah Pratt regarding her. This was on, this is on Brian Hail's site. He uses this as evidence, and it's the same story that we read earlier. How foolish you are. I don't see anything so horrible in it. Why, I am his mistress since four years. Um, at least so on some level, at least Brian Hails is acknowledging that that story has some merit to it that he puts this in as evidence and doesn't really share much to dispute it. Uh, will you read this story here, RFM? Sure. Let's see here. Okay. Uh, this is from a chapter called The Nauvoo Pandemonium. Yeah. Joseph Smith was shrewd enough to have a few honest men around him when he placed whom he placed in responsible positions. Here we go. Who filled them with fidelity and self-sacrifice, being at the same time in a great measure ignorant of the duplicity and wickedness of the impostor. Oh, none were more, I, I sigh because it sounds overstated. It sounds purple prose, and it probably is. But then I think, is that so different from today? And are there not people, uh, in high places in the church who have fidelity and are honest and are just unaware of the imposture that they are laboring under? Okay. None were more faithful or truthful than Elder Richard Rushton, the trusty steward employed by Joseph in the mansion house in Nauvoo. Elder Richard Rushton. Rushton was a good, honest man of fine instincts and had served faithfully for some years, holding that position when the bodies of Joseph and Hyram were brought to Nauvoo and he received them. It was his duty to lock up every night most of the rooms, especially the pantry, store room, larder, etc., and then to give the keys to Sister Emma. She would, on retiring, place a bunch of keys in a large pocket that was nailed on the wall at the head of her bed. About 4:00 every morning, Brother Rushton would tap at the bedroom door in order to receive the keys and open the hotel. Emma, on hearing the raps, would say, "Come in, Brother Rushton," and would hand him the keys from the pocket and give such orders as were needed. It so came to pass once upon a time that the groceries and other provisions necessary for the use of the hotel were nearly exhausted, and a famine seems pending in the larder. Fortunately, however, Joseph sold a fine black horse which had been presented to him for $350 or so, and also a city lot or two. That's a heck of a price. And also a city lot or two for about $400. With the sales of the horse and land, and a little cash on hand, he mustered up about $900, which he cheerfully placed in Emma's hand, saying, "We are out of provisions. Take this and go down to St. Louis and buy what is needed. Captain Dan Jones will fire up the Maid of Iowa. There it is. A little steamboat always ready for church use and take you down." Emma is started for St. Louis. The going, uh, the going, purchasing, and return occupied about a week. At night, after the departure of the elect lady, that's Emma, the steward gave the keys to the prophet. And in the morning, he, as usual, stepped lightly, stepped lightly and tapped at the door of the bedroom.

Okay. So now the prophet's supposed to give him the keys to open up in the morning while Emma is gone. That's what we're to understand from this, right, Bill? Correct. But that's not who gives keys. Yeah. A voice strange to his ear, of feminine softness, rather startled him in response with the words, "Come in." He retired timidly, or he entered timidly, when lo and behold, there lay in Emma's bed and stead the beautiful and attractive young wife of Elder Edward Blossom, whom we haven't met yet. And by the way, I'll just note here, um, we need to go probably one more slide. You know, the young wife of Ed, uh, Elder Edward Blossom, a high counselor of Zion, uh, afterwards exalted to the apostilhip by Brigham Young. There is no Edward Blossom who was ever a high councilman who became an apostle. This story at least has a wrong name, if not, wrong name. And I note that here in this slide, in an article and essay, a trajectory of plurality, an overview of Joseph Smith's 33 plural wives, Todd Compton mentions this discussion of Mrs. Blossom, Edward Blossom's wife, and he mentions he says in Wilhelm Wild's Mormon portraits or truth about the Mormon leaders, Mr. Blossom was an apostle under Brigham Young, according to Wild's source, an example of the occasional unreliability and unsympathetic sources, as there was no apostle named Blossom, though this does not prevent von Brody from listing Mrs. Blossom as wife number 37. And at the very least, this, this story, doesn't have the right name of a person. That could be the only mistake, but it would give a serious reservation about trusting, uh, the account altogether, but I'll let you read it. I do think it's interesting if you want to continue on.

So, um, it was a, a high counselor of Zion, afterwards exalted to the apostilhip by Brigham Young. Yeah, we definitely know that no Blossom was an apostle. With a pair of laughing, glistening eyes and with a smile of happy sweetness, she spoke in soft and pleading accents, [clears throat] "I suppose, Brother Rushton, I shall have to be Sister Emma to you this morning." As she gracefully handed the keys to him, astonished and blushing, the faithful steward left the room to resume his duties, leaving the adulterous prophet and his charmer to themselves. Yeah, like Joseph Smith wouldn't have her shut up and come to the door himself. I don't know. People do crazy things, I suppose. The same thing was repeated each morning during the week Emma was away purchasing supplies for the prophet's hotel. I don't know why Rushton doesn't just keep the damn keys himself. In relating this occurrence to another of my most precise and valuable witnesses, Brother Rushton, though no seeker after effect, added the following picturesque details. Emma used to keep the keys of the hotel in a richly ornamented wallet given to her by some well-to-do English friends. When Joseph saw how dumbfounded I was, he sat up in his red flannel night and said in a hasty commanding tone, "That's all right, Brother Rushton," making a movement with his outstretched right hand toward me. The prophet's gesture and tone gave me to understand that I was to go and keep my mouth shut. "One afternoon," said Mr. Rushton, the steward. After the hurry of the dinner work was over, I was sitting in my little office when looking through my window, I saw the prophet Joseph, followed by the two Partridge girls coming from the back part of the lot, and enter all three, the little log cabin, which had been the first home in Nauvoo.

So he's looking out through the window and watching them go into a, uh, different house. Is that right? A different cabin, Bill? Correct. The very first cabin in Nauvoo. Yeah. Um, a minute or so afterwards, Sister Emma came to my office door and asked me, "Did you see Brother Joseph and the two Partridge girls go into the cabin?" Why would she ask that, Bill? It doesn't make any sense. If it's you, you would only know that if you saw it or, Right. If she saw it, why would she ask him? Or at least saw it out of the corner of your eye. Well, maybe. And even then, I saw that. Maybe it's kind of a ways away, and maybe she didn't get a good look. Maybe she needs glasses. Maybe she doesn't have 20/20 going. But even then, wouldn't she just go check on it herself? Because the story now has, um, needing to go check on it before Emma get. Okay. Well, let's see. Did you see Brother Joseph and the two Partridge girls go into the cabin? Mr. Rushton didn't like to split on the prophet. Split on the prophet. And yet didn't like to tell a lie. And at last he replied hesitatingly, "Well, I think perhaps, well, I may have seen them." "I'll just put on my sun bonnet and go." This is Emma, of course. "I'll just put on my sun bonnet and go and see what they are about," replied she, and stepped over. A very short time after her entry, she appeared at the door of the cabin, being pushed out rudely. So, this is from Rushton's point of view. He's still over in the Nauvoo House. A very short time after her entry into the cabin, she appeared at the door of the cabin, being pushed out rudely, and came to the office door, crying bitterly. "Oh, Brother Rushton," she said in broken sobs, "I went into the cabin. I found those two girls with my husband, and Joseph jumped up in a rage when he saw that I had surprised them and struck me a horrid blow." At the same time, she showed me the mark of the blow on her cheek. She then dropped fainting on a chair, weeping and uttering words of despair. A few minutes afterward, Joseph entered and going up to Emma said in a meek, repentant manner, "Oh my dear Emma, I am so sorry I struck you. I did it in a passion." It wasn't a passion about you. It was a passion about the two Partridge girls. But it was a passion nonetheless. You must forgive me. I did it without a thought, or I wouldn't have done it. Forgive me. But you shouldn't be running after me, Emma. It really was your fault. [laughter] It was your fault I hit you. But you shouldn't be running after me, watching me, and prying at my actions. Imagine if he had a cell phone. He apologized and kissed Emma and apologized again. And then finally, she arose, and they went into the parlor together, apparently reconciled after all that.

Well, that's how the story ends. And again, he's, he's recording the things people tell him. And I think in this instance, this is, uh, a difficult story to believe. Um, but I thought it was interesting, and I thought I would at least, uh, let folks hear it, and they can make their own judgment call. But, um, and I think the thing is, regardless of whether you believe this, um, he was married to both of the Partridge sisters. Even if this is an apocryphal tale, the basic historical fact remains the same. And if he had hit Emma, struck her a blow in passion, it might also be reflected in other accounts like the one where he had to discipline her harshly. Uh, William Clayton records that Joseph did something that was that he worded as a harsh measure. Harsh measures. Yes. He had, Yep. She wouldn't just shut up about him giving that watch to that that young girl. What was her name? Um, Flora Woodworth. Flora Woodworth. Very good. Yeah. She kept going at him and going at him, and finally, according to William Clayton, William Clayton said that Joseph Smith told William Clayton that he had to use harsh measures with her. I think William Clayton saw it. He, he witnessed Joseph Smith use harsh measures against her. Oh, wow. So he was recording what he saw in the experience. And, uh, so it's not the first time that it appears as though Joseph Smith hit someone. But again, I think there are lots of things about this story that seem exaggerated. And, uh, if I were going through these and sort of marking stories that I believe and ones I don't, this would be one I would strike up as not believing. But I, It's very melodramatic. It's like you could see it in a silent movie. Yeah. Yeah. They're telegraphing every move. Um, I will note though that Edward, uh, Edwin Rushton is talking about his father, son of Richard Rushton. And so he mentions his father. His father did work at the mansion house. By the way, I did put, uh, I thought it was back here. Let me go back one. There's a, there's an old vintage picture of the mansion house. In the bottom right hand corner, uh, in the middle is what it looks like today. Above is just the sign. But man, if you could have been a fly on that wall during the last few years of Joseph Smith's, uh, life, those walls would tell some stories. If the mansion is rocking, don't come knocking. Right. Right. Right. Okay. So, Edward Rushton did work at the mansion house. So, on some level, at least they're getting the character right. They, they know what his responsibility was. The, the story seems a difficult one to believe that Joseph would essentially expose himself by having his girlfriend, uh, answer the, answer Mr. Rushton every morning. Seems sort of a stretch, but, uh, his life. This page here, I don't have anything to read on, but I did just want to include it because I didn't want anybody to see me skipping a page, but there, there were great stories that we didn't include tonight. You, I'll, I'll have in the, uh, in the show notes, I'll have the link to this document, this book.

Can you stop for just a second because I may be giving Joseph Smith too much credit with thinking that this is seems unlikely because I don't know. I don't know. If we were to swap out Joseph Smith for Epstein and we put Epstein's name in there, right, would we think that was unlikely for Epstein to do something like that? Nope. Would that be sort of showing that he, as long as Emma's gone, as long as Emma is gone, he's of the walk and he'll do whatever the hell he wants and let people know about it and stuff like that. And he knows who he has loyalty of. He knows who's been tested and tried and who's willing to do whatever the prophet asks of them. So I think if it's believable, if we put Epstein in, it shouldn't be disbelievable just because it's Joseph Smith. No. And even the stories I have trouble believing, I think there's a hint of truth to them. I don't think they're a complete exaggeration. Um, again, as you pointed out, the Partridge girls and Joseph had a relationship over some standing amount of time. Joseph was going into the rooms and being intimate. He was keeping it from Emma. And so to see another story where he's being intimate with the Partridge girls in a way that's secretive and being kept from Emma shouldn't stand out as being too crazy to think is true. And maybe part of the problem is is that obviously this was going on, but the way I have studied it and encountered it has always been through history and through historians, and therefore it becomes kind of a bloodless affair. It's just sort of this is what happened, blah blah blah blah blah. This may be what somebody said, but it's all kind of antiseptic. And yet we know if it was going on, there had to be these kinds of stories that were circulating and seen. And maybe this is just a window into it. Yeah. Rumors were abundant. Many of the people who left their testimonies said they saw things or were part of the aftermath of the thing happening. And so we shouldn't be all too surprised when we hear about the kinds of events that would lead to people starting rumors and, uh, getting, uh, involved in one way or another. Um, so yeah, I agree with you. Uh, okay, so now on this one, I'll read this, and this is the, these were towards the end of, uh, that next chapter. I'm trying to think offhand. If I go back, maybe I can. It was at the top. Uh, right there, Nauvoo Pandemonium. And so, uh, this is, these last few stories is where I thought it got the most interesting, and there was the most evidence backing up these stories. This one here I thought was great. Joseph Smith finally demanded the wives of all the twel apostles that were at the home then in Nauvoo. And why not? Were the apostles not his slaves, his property, including all they had? Woman in Mormon has been from the beginning a cattle, a man, a slave. That Joseph did demand and obtain the wives of the 12 is proved beyond doubt by irrefutable testimony. But there is further proof from a very high authority. Jediah Grant, Brigham's counselor in the soul of the horrible reformation which culminated in the Mountain Meadows massacre, said in one of his harangues that which were as bloody as they were filthy. Quote, "Do you think that the prophet Joseph wanted the wives of the 12 that he asked for merely to gratify himself? No. He did it to try the brethren. But if President Young wants my wives, or any of them, he can have them, etc. He didn't consult his wives. Oh no, they are only like cattle to be given away if desired. Is the Mormon woman equal to the man according to that?" That was said publicly before thousands of hearers, men.

And women. Mormonism has produced the most abject slavery ever witnessed in the world. Hear Jediah Grant again.

"What would a man of God say who felt right?" When Joseph asked him for his money, he would say, "Yes, and I wish I had more to build up the kingdom of God." Or if he came and said, "I want your wife." Oh yes, he would say, "There she is. There are plenty more."

And Orson Pratt, another man of God, follows in the same strain. "Consecrate everything to the Lord that you have, flocks and herds, gold and silver, wearing apparel, watches, jewelry, your wives and children." Of course, the wives have given themselves to their husband, and he has to consecrate them. They are the Lord's, his chosen prophets. He has only lent them to us.

And I thought to myself, wouldn't it be interesting if Jediah Grant actually did say this in a general conference? And so >> I was trying to look it up while you were talking. >> Yeah, I've got it right here. This is in the Journal of Discourses by Brigham Young. >> Oh, volume two. >> Volume two. >> I thought the footnote down there was to one. >> This was a talk given on February 19th, 1854. A discourse by Elder Jediah M. Grant delivered in the tabernacle.

Did the prophet Joseph want every man's wife he asked for? He did not. Even if it's true that he did not actually want the wives that he asked for, Jediah Grant is admitting that Joseph Smith went around asking for everybody's wife. >> Good point. Good point. This is an incredible quote, by the way. I can tell you right now, which are the wives that Joseph Smith didn't really want? The ones who said no. >> Yeah. >> Oh, I didn't want you anyway. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. He did not. But in that thing was the grand. By the way, did he, did the prophet Joseph Smith want every man's wife that he asked for? He did not. Did he, did he want some of the men's wives that he asked for? That sentence seems to suggest that yes is the answer to that. >> I think it demands that answer. >> Yeah. And history backs that up. He did not. But in that thing was the grand threat of the priesthood developed. The grand object in view was to try the people of God to see what was in them. >> Oh, I see. So why didn't you just have them kill their children? I mean, this, this guy's a nut job, but it's Jediah Grant. But he does tell us number one that Joseph Smith was going around asking for guys' wives and, um, apparently there's some knowledge of it as well in some cases. And number two, that one of the reasons may have been given to, well, to try what's in them, right? To try their faith. Yeah. The grand object in Abrahamic sacrifice, right? >> Yeah. Jediah Grant is admitting that Joseph Smith did this. >> And so Grant, no further question, your honor. >> Yeah. And so if we go back to that talk, it, it makes perfect sense that there is truth to this story. >> Uh, it continues here, the grand object in view was to try the people of God to see what was in them. If such a man of God should come to me and say, "I want your gold and silver or your wives," I should say, "Here they are. I wish I had more to give you. Take all that I have. Take all I have got." A man who has got the spirit of God and the light of eternity in him has no trouble about such matters. He is heaping praise on the people who succumbed to Joseph's manipulation and gave their wives to him. >> Mhm. That's what the really faithful people do. >> Yeah. And then you get Orson Pratt and she, you know, they point out both people talking. Uh, so this is, um, this is Mrs. Pratt, I believe, and she's telling a story about her husband. This is the New York Herald. They interviewed a bunch of Mormons, but one of them they interviewed was Mrs. Pratt. This was on May 18th, 1877. This one took me a, this one was difficult for me to find. I knew what I was looking for. Uh, it took me about 3 hours to locate this. By the way, Jonah Barnes, it does take days to find things if you want to explore this stuff. So the, you, the name of the, of the article in the newspaper was the Utah theocracy, Mor, a Mormon wife and mother, uh, pictures her degradation, how she revolted from polygamy and was cursed by her husband. Orson Pratt's harem goes on and on. I don't wish to wrongfully accuse my husband, said Mrs. Pratt. By the way, she's interviewed multiple times in this paper. There was another instance in like March of 1877 as well, uh, where she speaks to the press, um, but she says, although we have been hopelessly separated for 10 years, I believed when he decided to enter upon the practice of polygamy that he did so not from any violence of individual passion but from sheer fanaticism. >> Yep. He told me that he believed it was his duty to take other women besides myself to wife. And at first, he said that this would make no difference in his affection for me. H which would continue pure and single as it had ever been. All those prom, false promises on the, on the front end of a situation. Huh? But think of the horror of such an announcement. He took wife after wife until they numbered five. And for a long time, they were kept away from me and I was spared from intercourse with them. And of course, in the old language, that just means interaction. By and by, he told me that he intended to put these five women on an exact equality with me. That he should spend a week with one, a week with another, and so on. And that I should have the sixth week. The first wife gets the sixth week. Then patience forsook me. I told him plainly that I wouldn't endure it. I said, 'If you can take five weeks with your other wives, then you can take the six with them also.' Good on her. Good on her. Uh, so just another sort of statement vouching for this stuff that gets said and done behind the scenes. Okay. And then there's this. This is the New York Herald, Friday, September 14th, 1877. This one was even more difficult to get my hands on. This is the one that I wanted. Um, Mormon oracles, how the revelations of Smith and Brigham were manufactured, heaven ordained polygamy. Why Joe, in the old original prophet, had that revelation. I think Mrs. Pratt is also being interviewed in this one. RFM, would you read this one? I think you're going to love what this has in it. >> Yeah, sure. Now, I'll tell you, this is, is it always Orson Pratt's wife? Who's Sarah? >> Sarah Pratt is >> she was a real uh proponent and mouth against polygamy who had been a Mormon, right? >> Yep. She is taking every opportunity to go around the podcast tour and talk to Mormon stories and Mormon discussion and Radio Free Mormon. >> Got it. >> Yep. Because earlier I had said Parley P. Pratt, but then a reference was made to him being the, the Paul, the Apostle Paul of Mormonism, which is more Parley than than Orson. And then I looked up and apparently one of his wives, Parley's wives, was Sarah, was a Sarah. But I'd always heard that this person had been Orson Pratt's wife, that this Sarah Pratt had been >> uh I thought this was Parley's wife that's talking in that previous story, but um I >> what's that? >> Yeah, Orson Pratt's her >> or Yeah. Well, this, that article had lots of things in it. It is possible that Sarah Pratt is talking about her experience and then below that it talks about Orson Pratt's harem, but I >> harem right there, the five. >> Okay, gotcha. Okay, sorry. >> I think so. I think I think it's Orson Pratt's wife and it probably has been throughout, though I don't know what that Paul thing was about. Okay. He was, uh, he was, however, um, is this Joseph successful and returned to Nauvoo? >> No, I, I, um, I think this is Orson Pratt because it's going to be Mrs. Pratt that comes in here and talks at a moment. >> Yeah, he was, however, successful. Okay. And returned to, um, apparently he was doing some kind of a debate, I think with the Calvinists. He returned to Nauvoo where he became almost insane over the charge which his wife made against the prophet Smith. Yeah, definitely Orson. Yeah, this is when he got kind of suicidal and was walking down by the Mississippi looking longingly at the river. um the prophet Smith in which she alleged, this is Sarah, that Smith had attempted to seduce her during the absence of her missionary husband. Yeah, this is that story. Uh, Pratt was at first violent and enraged against the prophet. He was consequently cut off from the church and took it so much to heart that he wandered in the woods like a crazy man. Companies of men were sent after him, found him, brought him back to Nauvoo, and in course of time, he was readmitted into the church. He has been warmly devoted to the memory of his prophet since his death. But whether he believed his wife or Smith, no one knows. So his wife says, "Joseph Smith uh came on to me and and Joseph says, 'No, I didn't know such thing.'" Right. >> And Smith went further than that. He called her a liar and he put out publications to hurt her credibility. >> Yeah, that's what he does. Those are the ones he didn't really want to marry anyway. It is said that the prophet admitted to him, Orson, the attempt he made upon his wife's virtue. So it is said that Joseph admitted that to to Orson, but that it was only done to see whether she was true to her absent husband. You see, I told you, I told you anytime he finds uh a woman who says no and will not do it, then uh she gets reduced and it becomes a, this was a test of your faith. I was just kidding. Right. I was just kidding when I asked you to marry me and when I said that God has commanded me and given this commandment that I'm supposed to marry multiple women. I was kidding about that. >> If Joseph's allowed to have her and and and did her, then uh, then so be it. But if he's not allowed, then that was just a test. >> So it is said that this is what he told that later on. Apparently Joseph admitted to Orson. It is said that he did try to do this to Orson's wife, but it was only a test. Orson, come on. Um, and a test that apparently she would have passed then, which which would raise the question, why did he get all those affidavits and publish them against her if she had passed the test? It is said that the prophet admitted to Okay, blah blah blah. I read that before. This Mrs. Pratt and nearly all her children are apostates in Salt Lake and have given Brigham no little trouble of late years. This apostle is highly esteemed Orson Pratt in the Mormon church. He presided over the Mormon interests in England for several years.

So I only use this as a backup to that earlier story, um, which mentions not only did Jediah Grant say the thing that she claims was said, but she also points to Orson Pratt, another man of God, talking about giving up their wives and, and, um, and then you've got this instance where, you know, Orson encounters this the way he does. Sarah Pratt is, uh, not succumbing to the prophet's approaches. The prophet then goes out of his way to ruin Sarah Pratt's name and Orson is suicidal for a short while. And, um, Joseph acknowledges to him that it was just a test. And, and again, the apologists might go like, why do we, why would we believe this? That doesn't make any sense. Why, I don't, why wouldn't we believe this? There are so many moments in Joseph's practice of polygamy that sort of addresses this story from various angles and shows it's true. One example would be Nancy Rigdon in the Happiness Letter. >> And when you understand that whole situation, you go, this is not that far removed from that. >> No, you have to have a plan. You have to do something when the girl says no. >> Yeah. And what Joseph Smith did was then tell that, tell the public that that woman was lying. And if he can't convince people that she was lying, then it was just a test. And the big danger and the reason she has to be a liar and have her reputation be smirched is because what if she talks? >> Yeah. >> If a woman says yes, then she's going to keep it a secret because it's part of this secret celestial marriage super initiated temple group, the quorum of the anointed. But if she says no, then she's likely to spill the beans. So, she's got to be destroyed reputationally. >> Yeah. I'm going to go back a few slides because we read the story on the left, which was, uh, the talk about Jediah Grant and Orson Pratt. We showed the sources there that lend some credibility to the story being true. And then I'm going to read here this bottom story, um, and this is talking about Violet Kimball and Hyrum C. Kimball. And I, I'm not going to read it word for word up above, but what essentially is being said is that Joseph Smith approaches Hyrum C. Kimball and wants Violet Kimball. >> And somewhere in that process, Violet declines. Um, it says Violet >> says and he says it was a test, right? Because I know this story. >> Yeah. Violet was a good, pure woman and she was better than her religion and though a slave to it in a manner, she loved her husband. Um, hence a reluctance to comply with the Lord's demand that Violet should be consecrated like the movable property of other apostles. Still, Joseph was to them a prophet and therefore the act might be right in him though simply damnable in any other man. They thought the, the command of the Lord must be obeyed in some way. But it goes on, and a proxy way suggested itself to their minds. In other words, is there a replacement for Violet? >> They had a young daughter. Ah, >> only getting out of girlhood. In fact, she was several months shy of her 15th birthday. And the father, apologizing to the prophet for his wife's reluctance to comply with his desires, stating, however, that the act must be right or it would not be counseled. The abject slave of a father asked Joe if his daughter wouldn't do as well as his wife. Joe replied that she would do just as, and I'll skip ahead here to it, just as well. And the Lord would accept her instead. Of course, he would. I would rather have her anyway. That's what Joseph Smith thought. Um, the half-ripe bud of womanhood was delivered over to the prophet. Helen Mar Whitney, this is her name now, still lives and belongs to that undefinable class of wrinkled old women only to be found in Mormonism who pride themselves in their shame. In speeches and in print, she writes pamphlets on the divinity of polygamy. Other plurals do the same. It is the saddest, the most disheartening kind of literature I have ever seen in any country. It makes me do desperate things. It makes me prefer the worst of mother-in-laws to such ladies. [laughter] Yeah. And gives me and gives me a wonderfully favorable idea of the odalisk. Is that how you say that? >> I don't know, but it's a good stab. >> The odalisk of those old bearded Turks. They are pretty and they don't write, you see. So later in life, all of these plural wives of Joseph Smith are showing up at the beck and call of Brigham Young and other church leaders to testify of polygamy and how good it was. But remember what she said in the beginning. Having a great desire to be connected with the prophet Joseph Smith, he offered me to him. This I afterwards learned from the prophet's own mouth. My father had but one ewe lamb, but willingly laid her upon the altar. When you understand the background story that Violet is reluctant and so the Kimballs come up with an idea of, let's let her be the person by proxy that marries Joseph Smith instead of me. That her family offered her up to Joseph and he said, that tradeoff will do. That'll work. That'll be sufficient. It makes so much sense now when we go and look at Helen Mar Kimball's words and we see her saying, having a great desire to be connected. She's saying her family, her dad, her dad having a great desire to be connected with the prophet Joseph offered me to him. This I afterwards learned from the prophet's own mouth. Because you can imagine this 14-year-old going, "Why would you do this?" Like, "You're the prophet. Why are you coming after a child?" And, and Joseph's natural answer is, "Your dad's the one who did this? Not not me. I was making some other request, and your dad saw you as the way to to switch out what what I had asked for for something else." My father had but one ewe lamb, but willingly laid her upon the altar. That makes a lot of sense. And that's obviously a reference in a sense to Abraham being requested to sacrifice his own child, aka >> Hyrum Kimball being asked to sacrifice his wife. That the lamb is found. Right? When Abraham goes to sacrifice his kid, the angel comes down and says that there is a, a lamb that can now be laid on the altar as a replacement for Abraham's child. And Helen Mar Kimball, at least on some level, it seems to me that is she's at least in, maybe in part, referencing that. Uh, that being a ram instead of a ewe lamb, I would suggest that perhaps it might be referencing the parable that Nathan the prophet told David in order to shame him for taking, um, that wife, the one that's famous that I can't remember, Bathsheba from, uh, Uriah the Hittite, because he only had the one, the one ewe lamb and David had hundreds. You remember that, right? Thou art the man. >> Yeah. And he sends, uh, he's, uh, Bathsheba's husband to the front lines of the battle where he's killed. >> Yeah. Has the troops withdraw in the heat of the battle. By the way, an odalisk, odalisk is a female slave or concubine in a harem, especially one in the seraglio of the Sultan of Turkey. So that's the connection there. It's a member of a harem. And then this is the, the last story. RFM, will you read this one? This is, this is the last one we'll read for the night and we're at the 8:00 mark and I'll put the link in the show notes if anybody wants to come on and and ask anything about, uh, what we've gone over tonight. You're free to, but this will be the last story. >> Aha. Okay. So, the other intended victim who escaped the prophet's clutches was high-spirited Mrs. Sarah M. Pratt. She stoutly repelled his repeated approaches, though she had to pay the penalty for refusing to consecrate her honor. She has been ever since hated and slandered by the Mormon, by the Mormon leaders. Joe threatened her if she divulged to her husband or anyone else what he had proposed, adding, "If you do, I will ruin your character. I will deny everything and the church will believe me and not you. My standing in the church must be upheld at any cost and sacrifice." He kept his word. He tried to starve her and her children. He used all his influence against her, even leading mob demonstrations for that purpose and abusing her from the pulpit. He caused evil reports to be circulated about her and tried to make her an object of detestation as an apostate. Brigham Young took up Joseph's course in this, as he did in everything else, and tried to rob her of her modest property in Salt Lake City, the support of herself and a family of small children, mostly sons, whom she has reared to man's estate, and who would do honor to any community. Her husband, Orson Pratt, who became under the influence of polygamy as coarsely selfish as any other plague, went so far in his abject slavery as to join Prophet Brigham in his attempt to defraud the victim, his own wife, and the mother of his children. It was my earliest interview with Mrs. Pratt in January 1885, which gave me the first insight into the pernicious working of a system invented by impostors and carried out by outlaws all the way through. Yeah, I did think it was interesting. By the way, I've, I've heard fundamentalists refer to each other and, and I've also heard, uh, what they would consider Gentiles, but Mormons or other people in, like say southern Utah, for instance, >> referring to those in the fundamentalist sects as plagues. And in my mind, it was always P L Y. But here's the first reference I'd ever se, or the earliest reference of me ever seeing that being used. Um, down there on the bottom left, a P O L Y, a PIG. Um, I thought that was kind of interesting. But, uh, again, just a note, this story shouldn't stand out as something unbelievable. This is very much along the lines of what happened with Nancy Rigdon in the Happiness Letter. Um, Joseph, when Nancy turned down his approach, Joseph went out of his way to besmirch Nancy Rigdon and to put out material into the public, uh, that would distance him from having to be accountable for what she was charging him with or what she was, uh, angry about. Um, so anyway, I think that's interesting. I'll put the links in the show notes. You can read this. Your thoughts, RFM? I, I thought these stories are interesting. I think some of them are likely true. I think some of them are either false or highly embellished. And, uh, but I think the stories are certainly interesting and point to how, uh, ex-Mormons in Utah in the 1880s, how they perceived Joseph Smith, how they perceived polygamy, and likely what they were discussing with each other, in the same way that we discuss these things today. >> Mhm. Yeah. And to the extent that they are recollecting and, um, reciting things that they claim to have had direct knowledge of, I think that's valuable. You have to take into account if they have any grudge or bias against Joseph Smith that might be infecting what it is they're relating in some way, but, you know, it's direct evidence. It's admissible. Yeah. Um, the book itself is really interesting. I, I need to spend time reading through it, but when I saw that chapter, the Don Juan of Nauvoo, and, you know, the, the believer in the apologist wants to rush in. And by the way, folks, the link there is in the chat. If you want to come into the show and have a question or comment, feel free. Otherwise, we'll just end it here in a second. But, um, when you grow up as a believing Mormon, you have this very innocent story about Joseph Smith and about the church. And it's only because the church isn't the story that you were told about it and Joseph Smith isn't the story about Joseph Smith that you were told about him that you begin to make allowances in your head for like, oh yeah, well, you're right. Like he did have sex with children, but here's how I make it okay. But you're right, the Book of Abraham isn't on the Egyptian papyri, but here's how I make it okay. You know, and, and that goes for Book of Mormon and, uh, racism and, uh, Native American theology and, uh, and polygamy here that we talk about. As a believer, I wonder like, at what point do you stop giving the benefit of the doubt to the church when the reality of Joseph Smith or the reality of the church continues to much more closely match up with the way the critic sees the data and the data that the critic makes you aware of. At some point you start to look at these stories and you go, man, some of them sound pretty, you know, exotic and unbelievable. But then you look at the rest of things that are happening in Mormonism around polygamy, for instance, and you go like, it's not any more crazy than the Partridge Sisters having a second ceiling and Emma only knowing about it as if it's the first one or >> right, like, like these stories are already crazy. Mhm. And so at what point do you go like, uh, I need to stop discrediting every story that I can't prove is true when so many crazy stories turn out to be true. Maybe my first thing I should do is give the benefit of the doubt to the critic and ask the church to prove that story is not true. >> Anyway, >> Yeah, I just wanted to underscore what I'd said there toward the end. Um, I think I said a very soft if and it may have sounded like it's direct evidence and therefore admissible. What I had said was if it's direct evidence, then it's admissible. For instance, if you got people saying, yeah, this guy told me this, right? Uh, Bullock, Thomas Bullock, right? Said this. Not admissible hearsay. But Rushton is saying, "I worked as the clerk or the custodian or whatever at the Nauvoo Mansion and this is the stuff that I saw and this happened. I saw Joseph go in and here comes Emma saying, 'Did you see Joseph go in? I see Jo, Emma go over there and all this stuff.'" That's admissible. That is direct evidence. Whether it's true is a different issue and that's why God created cross-examination, but it's admissible. And I'll just note in that instance, it's someone else telling the story that Rushton told. So it's a secondhand telling of Rushton's account. >> It's not. >> You mean the author? >> Yeah. Rushton himself is not interviewed in this book. >> Oh, he's not. >> Someone else is saying, "By the way, there's this, uh, Richard Rushton. He worked in the Nauvoo Mansion house, and here's the story that he told." >> Okay. Not admissible. >> Not admissible. Um, again, you get to choose which of those stories you believe and which you don't. I don't think you can dismiss them all out of hand. I think in certain instances, I'll give the example, Joseph calling the girls who lived in his home daughter seems like a pretty reliable instance since Lucy Walker attested of the same. The instance of, uh, uh, Jediah Grant acknowledging that Joseph Smith did in fact ask for the apostles' wives seems to be backed up by what Jediah Grant said in a conference talk. >> That's a hell of a quote. >> Can't be disputed. Um, and you've got, uh, >> came and asked for all of the guys' wives, but he didn't mean it for all of them. >> Not for all of them. >> He didn't mean it for all of them. That's how it is. Yeah. >> Not for all of them. >> The ones who said no, it was just a test. >> Yeah. Yeah. So he, yeah. So for some of them, it, he really did want them. Is that what you're saying? Uh, >> He wanted them all. >> Yeah. He wanted them all except the ones he didn't want. >> The world was not big enough for Joseph. >> Yeah. Uh, these stories as a person outside of the church now and realizing just how much crazy is in Mormon history. How much in our day I trust the informed critic to be the one telling the truth. My gut tells me that those ex-Mormons weren't much different than you and I or Lindsey Hansen Park or John Dehlin, that they were just trying to make sure that history didn't forget the truth. And some of them were sharing hearsay and secondhand stories. And some of that probably isn't true, but I think there's a lot more truth in those stories than what the believer would prefer. >> Oh, Dan Vogel's probably saying some things in live chat about how obviously, as a lawyer, what's admissible in court is not what it, it's not the same thing for a, um, a historian. In other words, historians would much rather have affidavits by the person relating direct evidence, but they still have to weigh. Again, I think some of them are true. I think some of them are not, and I think some of them we may not really be able to know. And, uh, but I do think it's interesting that this, uh, Austrian journalist goes to Utah in 1884, 1885 and is so amused and interested in Mormonism and what those who experienced it had to say about it that he takes a chunk of his life dedicating day in and day out, hours and hours a day to sitting down with the people who had experienced Mormonism to get their accounts of what had happened and his effort to try to at least put it out there and let the reader make up their mind about what's what's worthwhile and what isn't. >> Do you know, were there any accounts in there from witnesses who were still faithful to the church? >> Um, I really spent most of my time in those two chapters. I glanced over a couple of others and they seemed deeply critical as well, but the book is almost two books and the first part of the book seems to be more of a telling of the history of the church. And, uh, so I'm going to sit down with this in the next few weeks and try to read it and, uh, see what else is interesting in here and I'll report back on whether there are believers sharing their testimony as well. >> Okay. Well, it doesn't look like anybody's coming into the studio, which is good news for me because I've got to go home and pack because I'm getting up at O dark 30 to head to the airport. >> Well, let's get you out of here. Folks, please like and subscribe. Thanks for joining the show today. RFM, thank you. >> You know, I'm going to the airport, right, Bill? >> You're coming to Thrive in St. George and some folks, a few folks will make a bad decision and they'll be singing karaoke. And for the rest of you smart, intelligent, uh, folks who approach life the right way, you'll be listening to RFM and I doing a session of Mormonism Live. >> Who scheduled this opposite karaoke anyway? >> Yeah. >> That's that's crazy. >> Yeah. Well, it is just karaoke. >> Well, I'll, I'll sing a few songs, whatever it takes. >> All right, folks. Uh, please like and subscribe. Thanks for joining the show tonight, RFM. Thank you. >> And we'll catch all of you guys next week. >> Bye-bye. >> Good night, everybody.