Transcription
Foreign. [Music] Urban Artistry and Funking Focus for the Dance and Dialogue podcast. And for the Boogaloo traditions. So today, we have a special gift for you guys. We have, straight from Oakland, member of the SS Enterprise, the OG himself, William Bilo, AKA Boogaloo Bill. Thank you so much for being here with us. You have no idea how much I was looking forward for this. And well, shall we start?
Absolutely. First of all, thank you so much for having me. Thank you, thank you. So, I'll start with a very, very easy question for you. So, okay, today we'll talk a lot about tradition and history and legacy. So, yes, you to tell us a little bit, when did you get started on Boogalooing and how were you introduced to this? Like, where your mentor or mentors? And you just first saw it? It wasn't a cipher on TV or anything else, just, you know.
Okay. Um, I'm originally from San Francisco, California, and I moved over to Oakland when I was about nine or ten years old. Um, I first saw the art form in 1968, and I was inspired to start doing it, uh, around 1969, 1970. Um, I graduated from elementary school, went to junior high school, and I got a little bit more, um, of a flavor, uh, when I got to junior high school, which is what you all now call middle school. Let me first back up and say that I'm 63 years old. I'll be 64 next year. Um, and so my, my terms and terminology might be a little dated, but that's the era that I come from. Um, but I went to junior high school and got a little bit more exposure, and it really wasn't until I got to high school that I, I really got more of the urban feel because there were so many more, um, dancers that were really, really good at it. Um, I started in a style, a very little-known style called Head Snatching or Head Hunting. And, um, it's a very theatrical style. There was a lot of movement, a lot of sound. Um, a lot of the movements that evolved into posing and hitting, and then later on, popping came from this particular style. And this particular style has roots that date back to the 1950s, and that's another whole story. Um, but, um, I've been pro, I've been doing this thing probably since 1969, 1970. Um, on occasions when my health allows me to. I have two artificial hips and they hurt like crazy most of the time. But at any given moment when I have free time, when I'm not hurting, um, I turn on the music and go in the kitchen and I kind of do my thing. So, um, the second coming of this for me is to pick up on the, um, the, um, historical piece of the, uh, excuse me, of the art. So most people who know me don't know me as Boogaloo Bill, they know me as William Below, the historian. So this is kind of the second half of my dance career, you know, so to speak. So, um, is that pretty much what you were, what you were, what you were looking for?
Yeah, that, that, oh, that was crazy, crazy information. And well, since we were talking about your background, when you started, I would like to know what crews were you in, aside from SS Enterprise? And if you have any active crew or organization right now that you're part of, and enjoy the moment too, to give a shout out to any other fellow boogaloo you want.
Okay, okay. Um, I have not been in any other crew except for SS Enterprise. Um, I started out in my era. Most of us started out, we all started out as, uh, solo dancers. Um, and, um, coming into the funk era of music, which also precipitated bands and groups, group style sort of, sort of took over. Um, and the art form itself graduated from, from the street, so to speak, to the stage because at that point, no one wanted to see one individual on stage for four minutes, you know, kind of doing his thing. So, um, groups allowed there to be more activity, filled up more time, more space, um, and it took up more of the actual song. So the audience itself didn't get bored. Um, so we all kind of came from this solo background, started getting involved in groups. Um, I, my group was formed in 1975. Actually, it's kind of a two-prong because it started out as a two-man group, and we started in 1971. And then when we booked our first show, uh, we decided to bring in a third member, and we had to come up with a name. So we just kept the same name and, uh, started performing on the stage. Um, let me see. Um, some performers that I'd like to shout out actually come from the era that I began in, and they're probably people that most will never, most have never heard of. But I'd like to start with the gentleman by the name of, uh, Kenny Chambers. Um, I'd like to also say Donald, Donald Jones. Donald Jones is an original member of, uh, Granny and the Robitroids. And his brother is Alfred Jones, who was also an original member of Granny and the Robitroids. Um, David Dubose, Leon Jones, who's no relation to Donald Jones, the Robinson Brothers, the Lovett Brothers, and my group member whose name is Marlo Styles. And my other group member, rest in peace, he passed away two years ago, his name is Mari Sapp. So those are the individuals that I'd like to give a shout out to. Um, I'm sorry, there was another part of your question that you asked.
No, I guess the, the, was it all like, if you have, if you are a part of an organization? The organization, yes.
Um, myself, uh, and four other, three other individuals, uh, decided to put together an organization, uh, to gather and, uh, harness and to say the history and the culture of this art form called Boogaloo. So the name of the organization is called OBM, which is Original Boogaloo Movement. And in choosing the name, it's not us saying that we are the only original boogaloos. It's a place where all of the OGs can come, post their videos, share their story, um, give historical information, um, and just make sure that it become, that it gets documented. So that if people want to know more about it, um, they have a place of, um, reference. I'm sure you've seen a lot of the posts that I make and all of the historical information that's, uh, in them. Um, part of it for me is making sure that I'm not the number one single voice for the art form. I want everyone else to come in and, you know, be a part of it because I, I don't know everything. And unfortunately, we're all trying to draw memory from things that took place almost 50 years ago. So sometimes there's differences in times and dates. And so we like to try to incorporate those who are actually there, um, during specific times because I, of course, couldn't be in all places at all times. But, um, that's, that's the basis of our organization. There's myself, there's, um, Darren Hodges Dove, who's a member of, um, Gentlemen of Production. We have, um, his brother, rest in peace, who passed away two years ago, Boogaloo Dan. And then we have Dancer 64, who is from Sacramento and is currently on YouTube and everything else, you know, doing his thing. So, um, us four together decided to come together and, uh, put this organization together. So, um, so that's the name of the organization, Original Boogaloo Movement. And we're based out of Oakland. And you can go to, I have two pages. I have, um, one that's, um, called OBM Legends of the Bay, and the other one is just Original Boogaloo Movement. So either one of those pages on Facebook, you could go to find out the information. One is free for you to post on, the other one is just to go in and look at, you know, all the information that's being posted.
Cool, cool. And I have a question. It's not on the list, but, okay, it's a personal question. Sure. Of Star Trek, and I had to notice the name of your crew, SS. Yeah. So why and how did you guys get to this name?
We had a, we had a friend who, a very close friend of ours, who was in the military. He was in the Navy. And he, um, his ship during Fleet Week was, uh, docked in, excuse me, at the Alameda Naval Air Station, which is about 15 minutes away from Oakland. So we drove over there with some friends to actually pick him up off the ship. And we looked up and we saw the words Enterprise. Now, where the SS came from is, um, my original surname began with the letter S. My best friend's name began with the letter S. So we just decided to take the two S's and connect it to Enterprise. And that's how we came up with SS Enterprise. We weren't even thinking about Star Trek at the time. Um, we were thinking of something more urban and something more, more close to home. So that's why we chose that name. And then when we chose the third member, it just so happened his last name also began with the letter S. So rather than add another S and throw it off, we just stayed with that name. So that's how we came up with the name. Yeah.
Sure. [Music] Now, changing a little bit the subject. And, okay, we know that looking good was a very important part of Boogaloo and dance back then. Yes, yes. Where did you guys and the groups from the Bay Area took inspiration for the clothing? And how did it work in groups to decide what were the dressing code for the showcases and for the, the presentations?
Um, things were done a lot differently back then. Um, when we did stage shows, it was about learning how to produce. So we weren't just dancers, we were entertainers, and we learned the entire gamut. So we learned stage, we learned lighting, we learned how to use props, fashion. And a lot of it was self-taught. We didn't have money to, uh, take classes or have mentors or people to teach us. If for some reason an individual, you know, shared things with us, then, then that's kind of how we learned. So it was kind of trial by error, trial by fire. Um, the style came mostly from the styles that were happening during the late '60s going into the early '70s. Um, one of the most important props, um, was the hat. And you have one, one, yes. Uh, the hat of choice back then, there were two. There was the, um, Beaver 5x Beaver and the, uh, Stetson. Um, so those have always been staples throughout the dance from the beginning, you know, to the end. Because as we brought, um, posing into, into the art form, um, posing was a lighter form of hitting. Hitting was a much harder. So with, uh, posing, what we noticed is when you posed, when you stopped, the hat would rock just a tiny bit. It was like a buzz. So every time you, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, the hat would buzz each time. And so that added to the illusion of the movement that you were doing at that particular time. So the hat was the most important thing. Now, in terms of being at, like, social gatherings, parties, dances, it was whatever the actual fashion was at that time. But when we got ready to do stage performing, and we learned about staging and lighting, your blue lights, your strobe lights, your, um, your highlight machines, you know, things of that nature. We learned a little bit more about how things illuminate under certain lighting. And it gets a little, a little technical. But, um, we also learned a lot from just watching a lot of the, a lot of the dance groups. I'm sorry, a lot of the singing groups that were on television. And, you know, depending on what message we wanted to convey, that's what the uniform was. Some of it was, [Music] um, tuxedos, maybe all white, maybe black and white, maybe blue. And if we started to lean more towards doing skits, like scenes from horror movies, space age things, then, uh, everything got a little bit more graphic. And so you saw a lot more of that with groups like the Black Messengers and, um, the Black Resurgence, Granny and the Robitroids, Derek and Company. Um, you know, those groups, they started to get into more theme type, you know, costumes. So, [Music] um, it all varied. But, uh, most of our influences came from just random things that we watched and random things that we saw. And it just added to the, the whole creative flavor of the whole thing.
It would be about it. And we're talking about inspirations and influences. And we would like to know about how was your family bringing an education and another influences you had, like TV shows, movies, other dances, other artists, like how, how it all contributed to, to influence in your, your art?
Okay. Um, I want to go back to 1965 because 1965 was the very first time I ever saw robot. It was on television, and it was a movie featuring a robot by the name of Towbar. And I forget the name of the actual movie. But that was the very first time I ever saw robot on television. Um, seeing it performed was when I moved over to Oakland, um, in elementary school, and I started seeing it that way. Um, in terms of my upbringing, I was born in 1959. Coming up in the '60s and the '70s, very, very turbulent times, especially in the Bay Area. There's a lot of history and a lot of culture here. Sports, entertainment, politics, art, you name it, here. A lot of movements. The Black Panther Movement, the Black Power struggle, the hippie revolution, many of the marches, war on Vietnam, just many, many different things happening right here. We live minutes away from UC Berkeley, the University of San Francisco, San Francisco State. So there was so much of that going on here. Um, I come from a very underprivileged, underserved neighborhood. Poor education. The economy was, was very bad back then. Unemployment was very high, lack of jobs, police brutality. A lot of the social injustices that are going on now went on back then. The only difference is now they have cameras. So now they can show more of it. And I'm interested to say that it was probably harsher back then because no one could see it. It was a lot of it was done, uh, in the dark. So there was a lot of anger, a lot of bitterness, a lot of frustration. So, um, getting involved in this art form really saved my life. Many of the people that I know, you know, who actually got involved in it. This art, much, much like any urban art, it's a voice. It's an expression with movement, sound, and music, telling stories. It sounds a lot like hip-hop because, to be truthful, it is a lot like hip-hop. Or I should say, hip-hop is a lot like us because we're like 10, 10, 12 years prior to. So it was a means of expression, but also a means of, of escape. My father passed away when I was very young. So, uh, my mom was a single parent. And so she set about the business of, um, making sure that we had strong male role models, whether they be uncles, school counselors, Parks and Rec directors. We had the YMCA. So there were a whole lot of social activities sponsored through Parks and Rec, which was a saving grace connected to the dance because if it were not for that, many times we wouldn't have a place to practice, rehearse, and perform sometimes, or just hang out in order to stay out of trouble. So I was very vital to the communities that I was raised in. Um, I believe overall as good parents, you know, good parents do the best they can with what they have. And I, I think you got to have some intestinal fortitude and want more for yourself. So this dance sort of provided that, you know, vehicle for me, um, and many of those that I know, you know, who got involved. So I'm, I'm grateful for it. I'm extremely passionate about it. And although I can't perform it, um, on the level that I used to, um, I enjoy very much talking about it.
Oh, well, keeping the subject about influences and how your backgrounds of your art, I would also ask, what songs were playing on when you guys were active? Yeah. And how did you guys would do the choices for the, for the performance, for the music, for your performances? Like, were there some rules? Anything that was more popular? How, how would it work?
Well, most of it was, most of it was top 40. Uh, whatever was hot at the time. I mean, each individual person, being creative in their own right, would choose, um, a record, um, that was kind of, that was comparable to the style that they were doing at the time, or, you know, creating routines. Whether they wanted it to be a little slower, whether they wanted it to be a little faster. Oakland was a city that was in search of an identity because we were mired in a lot of, a lot of, um, social and economic issues. So it was the combination of the Black Panther Movement along with James Brown. They both collided at the same time. So, um, the Black Panther Movement gave us the pride and the strength and the power, and James Brown gave us the funk. So those two collidings with gave Oakland its identity. So all the way from, it's, it's, it's kind of rebel-like. So all the way from dance to the sports teams to the music that comes out of here, there's a, there's a rebel kind of feel to it all, a renegade. So, um, so our music, of course, because we came up during the, uh, funk era, most anything that was popping during the funk era, you had James Brown, you had Parliament Funkadelic, you had the Dazz Band, you had, oh, just many, too many to speak of. And, um, it was funk and actually disco, because you can't mention funk without disco, because the two actually collide. And many of the records that we were performing to that may have been thought to be funk were actually disco. You have funk, you have funk performers who were trying to throw their hat into the disco arena, so they sort of delved into that, my vice versa. So almost any, I mean, KC and the Sunshine Band, Average White Band, Wild Cherry, Isley Brothers, Brass Construction, Earth, Wind & Fire, Ohio Players, uh, Lakeside. It's just, just numerous records, numerous hits. The thing is, is that one of the things that precipitated groups was because the average funk record back then was probably about four minutes long, and very few solo performers back then could sustain and not do the same move twice over a four-plus minute period of time. So, you know, when you break that up with a group of four, you know, it's, it's kind of easier to, you know, pull it off, giving each person 30 seconds to come out and do their, you know, solo thing. Um, so it, it's, um, whatever the social music was, whatever was, you know, hot, that's kind of what we were doing back then. That was our influences in terms of of music. And in terms of choosing it, it was each individual, you know, whatever you felt like you wanted to do at that time, you know, then that's what you used. Our favorite record to perform off of was a record by James Brown. It's called "Can't Take It With You" over to the Promised Land. It's a really fast, up-tempo, nowhere near the speed of the music that's being, that popping is being, um, performed to. But it was one of the fastest that we had on the time. So, yeah.
And it's nice. Yeah. Well, we're getting to another subject now. Okay. I would like to ask, after all these years of Oakland not getting enough recognition, how do you see some light being shed on your contribution? And what do you hope for the people of Oakland and their contribution in the future?
There's a narrative that's been going on for years between Los Angeles and Oakland, and everyone has their version of what it is. And it's, it's too long, too very, too much information to actually try and get into. But the distinction of the creators of this art slipped from here and went down to Southern California. And for me, ultimately, I would love to see that distinction come back here, you know, to Oakland. Um, I'm grateful that we're finally getting recognition. Um, I've been at this thing for some semblance of it for about 50 years, and I'm actually grateful to, to guys like yourself because we literally, and we, most of the, a lot of the OGs get together and we talk about this, we literally have to wait for you guys to be born in order for things to happen the way that they are happening now because we not only had, we not only didn't have the technology or the means, we didn't have the business savvy, you know, to make it happen. So, um, I'm, I'm eternally grateful. And it's really important at this stage because most of us are in our early to mid-60s, and some older. Most of a lot of us have actually passed on. So, I think it's important, you know, that the flowers be given while the individual can actually smell them and, you know, enjoy them. So, um, ultimately, what I would like to see happen, especially in my home, is I would like to see, um, a creative arts center built, and have a wing of that center dedicated to this particular art form. And have, just like they have the Walk of Fame and, um, Hollywood, I'd like to see something like that done for as many dancers as possible, you know, from the beginning. And just have it go on and on and on and on. And just recognize, you know, some of the artists who aren't here to, to, um, live this, you know. Um, um, you know, and that's my biggest thing. Oakland has broken up into three areas. You have East, West, and North. I'm from West Oakland. And I'd like to have the center built in West Oakland because West Oakland is more of the center of town, it's easily accessible. Um, I'm also thankful for you guys, especially for the technology because now, um, my great-grandchildren, my great-great-grandchildren, if they ever want to know about their great-grandfather, great-great-grandfather and his contribution, you know, to this art, now they have a place that they can go and find that the information is actually documented. So, longevity, lineage, and, um, legacy are very important. But the history of the art is probably, you know, the most important thing in making sure that it's recorded. So for me, um, the greatest part of my thanks really and truly does go to you guys, you know, for that. So, you know, I appreciate it.
Yeah. And just, I'll just get a second to say that we are eternally grateful for the foundations you guys like for us. Thank you. We talked a lot about some of the social injustice that was happening back then that is me now. Yes. What barriers are boogaloos facing now for the art as an as artists? And also, personally speaking? And how people can be of service and aid you guys in this, in all these questions?
Um, I think that one of the biggest barriers is that because of the time and the era that we started this art form, um, we didn't understand that we were involved in something that was going to continue. So I, I think that had we known that we were going to have to stand in front of people and explain what this thing was, we would have been much greater keepers of the flame. So the struggle that we have right now is the fact that we have probably little to no video. So on a scale of one to a hundred, probably 10% of what we have is video. So what's left to tell the story is still shots and the originals, you know, who were there. So one of the things we run into when speaking to the younger generation is, and they're just products, and you got your products of your era, but one of the first questions is, let me see video. And they don't understand that, first of all, we, handheld video cameras weren't around, cell phones weren't around. And those who did have video, um, had, um, sponsors, management, who could afford to have crews and teams to actually film them. But the majority of us didn't have that. And so there's a difference between being the, the most popular and being the best. And I don't argue either, I just know that there's an actual difference. And I will say that the, a lot of the best never got seen. And so I think one of the barriers is building a bridge between the old and the new, and sustaining that bridge, and understanding that we truly both need each other. Because going, because we, we know that we didn't create this, these movements. We know that we didn't do that. This comes well before we were ever born, and it is, and it evolved to the place of the '60s and the '70s where we got a hold to it and put our spin on it. And then from there it went on and on and on and on. And history tends to repeat itself. There's nothing new under the sun. And we're 100% understanding of that. But what we want to be able to do is know that from a creative standpoint, anytime you want to be creative, at some point going forward, everything will begin to look the same because you can't connect the dots because they haven't been created yet. So if you're trying to find some semblance of creativity, you, you have to go backwards. So what I see the stance, what is our form doing, is I find it, I see it now starting to go backwards. And that's not a bad thing. In fact, it's a great thing. Because as, as a whole, um, you have to mature with your audience, and they themselves will start to say things like, you know, everybody's beginning to, you know, kind of look, you know, the same. Where do we go for creativity? So that's what we're here for. Yeah, with you guys, you, you see, I'm grateful because you, you don't, when you guys go out and you, and you do what you do, you don't have to say anything about us. You don't have to mention us. You're not obligated to do that. So that's where the gratefulness comes in. But that's also where the bridge needs to come, be built and be solid. Because we act, we both, we both need each other. You, you need us for the history. We need you for the continued evolution. And for me, it's all creative. It's all creativity. So, you know, I love it all. I hope that, I hope that answers your, your, your question.
That that answers my question very well. And that also leads us to our next. Well, since we're talking about moving, building a bridge from the first Oakland legacy contribution, I had one question for you. Yes. Is the new word to describe what the boogaloos were already doing back in the '60s and the '70s? And I want to know your thoughts about about it, about this new word, about people renaming it. And how do you feel about this dance today? About what his, what this dance has become today?
Um, when I first heard the word popping being used, but as an OG, it, I have to admit that it was somewhat offensive. But I had to also understand and embrace this thing called evolution. Because popping is just an evolved form of Boogaloo. And they're both creative in their own right. Because if you've got 50, if you've got a view of only 15 minutes of something, and you take that 15 minutes and you parlay it into a style or multiple styles, that alone takes creativity. So the one thing that I've always been very careful about is not ostracizing and taking away credit from a creative standpoint. Because it takes creativity on both sides. Um, I think where a lot of the OGs are bothered is that going forward, um, we, we did, we didn't, we didn't get the recognition, um, financially or any other kind of way. So there were ways that we weren't able to take advantage of the art. Which for me is the reason why I want the distinction of the creative piece of it to come back here. Because although we as OGs might not be able to take advantage of it as performers, but as teachers and as educators, we might be able to bring in that next generation who might want to learn the art from its grassroots and not start at the point of say, popping. Um, although they're evolved versions, there are distinct differences. For me, because I see it as art, it's all creative. For me, so I actually love it all. For me, one of the greater differences is that popping creates illusion using speed. Funk music was a slower brand of music. So for us, the illusion came with a slower, more deliberate movement, and it was eclipsed with a stop that either became pose, stopping on the dime, or hitting. And they're actually all under one umbrella, but they're three different things. Um, the Boogaloo, what makes Boogaloo really hard to teach is that Boogaloo is not a specific set of movements. Boogaloo is the umbrella, and there could be 50 different things under that umbrella. So when someone gets a narrative that this is what Boogaloo looks like, 90% of the time it's incorrect. Because it's, it's all of it. It's so many different things. And we didn't use the word style back then. There was no such thing as styles. We use, we use the word movements. So it became styles when popping came into the fray. So you had all these things under one umbrella. And to be able to teach it, they started to dismantle the umbrella one movement at a time. Where the creativity came in was to take that one movement and turn it into a style. Now, I can't say that everyone, you know, in my era thinks this way about it, but that's the way that I feel about it. Um, and I think for the history and the longevity of the art to continue, um, what you do is not supposed to look like what I do. It's not supposed to. In fact, greater things are you to do with it than we ever did with it. And that's exactly what you're doing. So it, that's, it's important again, you know, for the embracing to actually take place and understand that we both, you know, need each other. I'm excited about the history of it because, um, I see that it's sort of coming back to incorporate more. And I think that that is going to, sometimes in order to go forward, you have to, you have to, you have to step back and pull a little bit of history forward in order to continue going forward. So that it doesn't dry up, it doesn't look the same. Let me just say this, dance is, dance is the least respected art in entertainment, yet it's the most profitable. Every advertiser is using some form of facsimile of this art form to promote and advertise products. Everywhere you see, you see something that connects to this art. So for me, that's for the pride of it all, you know, comes in. So what we have to understand is that we're, we're all dancers. We, it's, it's our culture. This is, this is ours, and it's homegrown. This wasn't something we learned in a studio. This wasn't something we paid someone to teach us. It was, it was birthed from the soil. And each generation took what was happening on the soil that they come from, and they incorporated into their movements. And it's our generation, yours, the next, next, and it will continue to be that way. It's been commercialized, and we haven't been able to capitalize. None of us have been able to capitalize on it fully. That's the hope one day that that will someday happen, is that we will be able to, you know, capitalize on it. So, um, that's, that's what I say. I'm extremely proud of what you guys do. Um, I am, it took me about a year to really embrace it all because when I came back into this, I had never heard the word popping. I had never seen the movements in, in, in all of this because I was totally away doing something completely different. So to see that it has evolved, evolved into what it has, um, I'm, I'm impressed because you guys do things that we could never have thought of doing. After about two minutes, we'd be winded and the whole nine, even being young people. So, you know, I love it. Um, by the way, keep doing what you're doing. Thanks.
And well, getting still in the subject, I would like to know because you said before that you guys sometimes didn't have any, not even a place to practice. Yes. I know it's a generation thing. So I would like to know how did you guys share the knowledge? Like, how did you guys use it to teach each other or to get to know new movements and to get new ideas from each other? How this process would, would happen?
Well, all of those concepts that you're speaking of are, are very new concepts. Those concepts came in with popping. This art was very prideful. It was very competitive, and it was very territorial. This is why if you, if you could survey the art form called Boogaloo, um, you hardly ever saw two dancers that danced alike because the sharing of information, let me say it like this, football, baseball, basketball, soccer, any competitive sport, because dancing was our sport. That didn't mean that many of us didn't play other sports, but dancing was our sport. So we trained and practiced just like any other athlete would. Um, the goal of making sure that no one got a hold of what you were doing was to not share it and to not teach it. Now, if you had a group, of course, you wanted everybody to be uniformed in their movements while you were doing group step. In terms of solo, you got that information by going to events where other dancers were going to be, and the goal was never to look like anybody. So if you saw someone doing something, this dance got to where it is because people stole from one another, let's just be real about it. But the goal was to not make what you do look like what they did. Um, oftentimes, again, because of the time in the era, not only did we not have places to practice, a lot of us didn't even have mirrors that we could look into to to actually perfect. So it was up to us being self-contained in a, a group or a best friend who did the same thing you did to sort of critique you. I'll give you a perfect example. When you guys have battles, um, your battles, um, are very, um, organized. So you, you have a DJ, you have an announcer, and the DJ, it will, you have, uh, two dancers, and the announcer will say, okay, nah, you have so many minutes to do your thing, and then when you're done, this person will do their thing, and that's a battle. We didn't do it. We didn't do our battles like that. Our battles were nothing like that. They weren't organized to that degree at all. Basically, you could be at a house party, and your, your, your calling card was the hat on your head. So if you walked in the door and you had on a beaver or Stetson, they knew right away that you were a boogaloo. And so oftentimes battles would start with either someone announcing that this person's party, these two people are going to go against each other, or, but 90% of the time, they were very random. So you come to the party, and you might be dancing with a girl, and your favorite song comes on, and if you turn, if you saw your adversary on the other side of the room, if you turn to him and hit and then and and point it, then you called them out. And when you point it, you point it to the center of the room. So the two of you would start creeping towards each other to the center of the room, and the circle would form around you, and you guys went at it. So no one had to say, back up or move, because as you move, the circle would enlarge. The closer you got, the circle would shrink. So, and you winded each other at the same time. So then begs the question, how could you determine a winner? Well, we did, we did that. Winners were determined. Let me see, reputations were earned and lost, you know, doing it that way. And and trust me, if, if the event took place on a Friday or Saturday night, by Monday morning, everybody everywhere knew either you won or you lost. We still had telephones. So, people who were from different schools or different places. And then we were really good at giving events in centralized locations, huge massive talent shows where people could come out of their communities to one centralized location and see these, you know, performances and sometimes see these battles. So, um, we, we, we were products of our time and our era, and we got it done that way. The mass doing it in mass is what you guys, you know, have the advantage of because, you know, social media, you know, cameras, you know, video, you know, all of that. So, um, that was kind of how things, you know, were done. And it's, it was a beautiful thing. If I had to trade places, times, and eras, I wouldn't. I would, I wouldn't. The only, the only thing that I would trade is divisibility, um, in the amount of exposure. Yeah.
Nice. Yeah. Using these last questions, I would like to ask something else. Okay. Do you feel the current popping scene or recognizes the boogaloos enough? Or do you think they could do something more? Do we think we could work harder on this?
Um, to be truthful, Marco, I think both sides need to work harder. And I'm just being honest because I think sometimes as, as OGs, sometimes we can come across sounding like bitter old men. And the truth of the matter is that we are bitter, and we are old men because, you know, we, we oftentimes we become that way because of looking at what, what looking at you guys and seeing what we started and what we created and not being able to actually benefit from that. And some believe that if nothing else, there's, okay, there's a debt. And I, I don't know that it's a debt. I think that it's, I think that honor is different than debt. You know, um, I think it all comes down to an actual choice. And I think that if there's mutual respect between the, the two, um, that, you know, I think everybody can be satisfied with the outcome. Um, I think that we could make ourselves more accessible, um, you know, to the younger generation. I think that the younger generation, I don't want the younger generation to show interest, uh, and not really be interested. I want them to show interest because they truly are, because we don't want anybody feeling sorry for us. And so, I just, I believe that it takes two, you know. Um, you, your generation is just the future. And I think for us, in order for our legacy to continue to to grow and for this thing to never die, um, we, we have to embrace what you do and honorably from a historical, you know, place, um, you know, it would be nice for you guys to, you know, participate more and sort of helping to, you know, build that bridge and to make it more solid. So, um, so we promise not to come off like grumpy old men, um, if you guys don't see us as one of your men. I'm just kidding. Um, yeah, but specifically, um, I don't, I don't know that you, I don't know that you're not doing enough. You know, I just, I kind of think that things will continue to evolve the way that they are supposed to. Um, I don't know that we will ever get the exposure or or be able to profit or benefit from from our creation the way that you guys are. And to be truthful about it, we're not supposed to. We're just, we're just not supposed to. Because I mean, you, you guys took it to another level. And and ultimately, greater things are you to do with it than us. So for me, it makes sense that it, you know, with each generation, it's going to get greater and greater, and it's going to look more and more different. You know, I can't look at you and say, oh, because you don't do it like we did, that's not a real thing. Well, Boogaloo is not just a dance. Boogaloo is a time and an era. And so it's not just about learning the movements. And so I'm asked this question many times, can I be a boogaloo? And I don't want to crush anyone's confidence or make anyone feel bad. But my thing with it is this, you can learn the movements, but unless you were there, um, at the infancy of this, and you went through all of the struggle and everything that was poured into the soil that's encompassed in the art, it's, it's hard to say that you are a boogaloo. Now, unless the word popping goes out of style. And maybe different for popping because you're, we had a 10-year run from 1969 to probably 1978. This is, '77, '78 was the most popular run of Boogaloo, and it was the most effective, but it was the shortest run of any other style of dance that has come after it, and I mean street dancing. So, no, I, I don't think that you guys are doing, I don't think that you, it's not that you're not doing enough. I mean, things like this prove it. And I've, I've also witnessed some of the other interviews that you guys have done. Boogaloo Dana, who's a, who's a dear friend of mine, we go way back since junior high school. And, uh, Kearney from The Messengers, you know, I've had a chance to see those two, um, and you guys did excellent jobs, you know, there. So I, I don't know that you can do any more than what you're doing. Um, you know, um, and I'm, you know, I'm grateful, you know, for that, you know, absolutely. Um, I think sometimes we, we might be able to be a little bit more gracious in our approach to things. I'm talking about my generation. But again, you know, we're in our city, we're in our 60s, some of us in our 70s. And I think the greater thing they want is, you know, recognition and just to understand that, you know, we, we are somebody, even though many of us can't do this thing anymore. And I didn't expect this to be able to. So I enjoy watching you guys do it. It's a lot safer, I'll tell you. Uh, yeah.
And well, talking about this evolution, like I said, it's not supposed to be the same. And right, it became something else. Yes. To become something else. It probably becomes something else in the future. Yes, yes. Talk a little bit about the styles or movements that you guys were doing back then, and that you guys can see we doing now, an evolved form of them.
I don't know if I praise it. Yes, you did. You did. Most everything that I see you guys do as, I mean, for, for, and, and I'm not the only one. I'm not saying all of us can see it, but most everything I see you do, I see, I see the evolved form. We're the tree, and the way that you can identify a tree is by its branches. So if we're an oak tree, you can't pick up a pine tree branch and connect it to an oak tree because it doesn't fit. So we're the, we're the tree. You guys are the branches. So in most everything I see you do, I see evolved versions of what we've, of what we've done. Um, I can watch someone dance and within a matter of seconds, sometimes maybe less than a minute, I can see things that we were doing back then that you guys call something else now. I'm not versed in the, in the, in a lot of what you call the movements. But, um, I mean, I can go back as far and start with this thing called backsliding or moonwalking, which, you know, Michael Jackson got credit for. And he was taught. Um, the, what Michael Jackson did was not the moonwalk. It's a, the moonwalk is a completely different dance. It's, I'm sorry, it's a completely different move. Um, we called it levitating because it looked like you were walking on air. So that's how that's what we called it. Now, the Nicholas Brothers back in the '30s, you were the first I ever saw do it. So, you know, it evolved into how we did it, and then when Michael got a hold of it, there was a name change. Um, popping is, there's three forms. You have, you had posing, stopping on the dime, and then you had hitting. And hitting was the harder hit. Kearney Mayers from the Black Messengers is probably more responsible for the hard-hitting. Him and John Murphy. Don Stop was Derek of Derek and Company. That was his baby. Posing was universal. That everybody started out doing. Um, I see that as being somewhat similar. The body control aspect in terms of where the hit comes from, when it comes to posing, when it comes to hitting, and popping are different. But most ever, most everything else, um, body separation, animation, dinosaur, vibrate, just to name a few, um, um, uh, strutting, you know, the arm swinging, you know, the body movements, the wiggle, the head roll, you know, the hopping. One of the gentlemen I mentioned, um, at the very beginning that I wanted to honor, um, his name is Kenny Chambers. Kenny Chambers was giving, he's giving credit for the hop. And everybody at the beginning called it the Kenny Chambers hop, because he was the one that, he was the one who sort of started that. And it, it's been a few moves have been staples throughout this entire history and lineage of this art. So, um, it would be hard for me to name what you guys call it or what you guys do. But for me, I, I see most everything that we did, I see it in most everything that you guys do. The only difference is, is that you were able to create illusion with speed. For us, with, you know, funk music, you have to, you have to learn how to sit in the funk and you have to learn how to eclipse it with, you know, stopping. And in fact, Don Stop is not even a dance term. You know, dime stop is actually a race car, a racing car turn. Race car. There are a lot of street race, a lot of drag racing on the streets back in the '50s. And some of the competition was to put a coin on the ground and go at a certain speed and see if the car can stop where the tire was on top of the dime, didn't roll past the dime. So that's where the word dime stop came from. Yeah, so it's, it's the precision in the stopping. It's not the creation of the work. A lot of the terminology we didn't really create. [Music] Where these names came from. I have one question, but first, I asked if future has some on that following us. Okay. Have any? I have one last question that I would like to make. Okay. Let me see if he can send something for us. You know, all good here. Go ahead. Okay. Uh, you said before about some of the struggles and even that to be an original boogaloo, to be a boogaloo and be there and live all these struggles and through everything. One question that with all this wisdom that these struggles and these experiences taught you, do you have anything to tell from this experience for the new generation?
Yes. The first thing is is that this, this is an art form. And it, it really is an honor to know how to do this because unlike social dancing or social dances, most everyone can do social dances because it's, it's the end thing, just like whatever music is in at the time, most everyone can do social dances. This art takes a gift. And understand that if everyone could, although there's a many people that can do the stance, if everyone could do it, it wouldn't be considered art. It'd be, there'd be nothing to set it apart from everything else. So it really is an art. The second thing I like to say is, never love yourself in the art. Always love the art in you. And if you remember that, you'll always seek to be creative. You'll always seek to be creative. The minute you start to believe your own press, fame creeps in, and fame is a drug, and it's just as addicting as anything else that you might get involved in. So to maintain the passion, just make sure you don't start loving yourself in the art. You always love the art in you. Um, yeah.
Great, great. Thank you so much. So much for being here. And thank you all the wisdom that you shared with us. Like, for me, just to be able to be here and talk to you and learn so much. You're crazy. And well, everybody, this was Boogaloo Bill from SS Enterprise, straight from Oakland, to the Funking Focus Dance and Dialogue podcast. Thank you, everybody. Peace out. Peace out. Thank you, sir. [Music]