Day 1/ 1st Grader Shoots Teacher Civil Trial ~ Abigail Zwerner vs Ebony Parker

All right, you may be seated. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. All right. Um, we are going to proceed with opening statements this morning. There were two things I did want to advise you of. Uh, obviously, we have a media presence uh here today and in the courtroom. There are cameras in the courtroom, but I want you to know that under state law, the media is prohibited from covering the jury or any jurors at any stage of these proceedings, including the jury selection process. I have been in touch with the individuals who are here doing that and uh they have promised me that you will not at any time be on any video or mentioned at any time. All right. The second thing is I know I promised you notepads. However, we will have those available for you after opening statements when we begin evidence. All right. Having no other motions to make, you may proceed with your opening statement. and may please your honor. Good morning, members of the jury.

In every school, there are spoken and unspoken [clears throat] promises that teachers trust administrators to keep. One of those promises is that when teachers sound an alarm that something is wrong, administrators will answer. In this case, on January 6th, 2023, those promises were broken. And those promises were not broken by chance or confusion, but through a series of deliberate decisions that were made inside Richne Elementary School, a school right down the street from us, 15 miles in our own community. And you're going to hear about the defendant, Dr. Dr. Ebony Parker. She was the assistant principal on January 6th, 2023 at Richneck Elementary School. Now, members of the jury, an assistant principal is the second in command. She's a frontline administrator. And as a frontline administrator, the assistant principal directly interfaces with the teachers every day. Those teachers go to her for support. They go to her when there's problems in the classroom. And those teachers go to her when there are safety concerns. And you don't have to trust me on that. You're going to see during this trial copies of the school handbook, the crisis management plan, which governs these responsibilities. And it also governs the relationship between administrators and teachers. As an assistant principal, you have the authority to search a student, to remove a student from the classroom, to notify the principal, to contact law enforcement. One of the main issues of a frontline administrator is safety. We've all heard safety first. Members of the jury, this is the job of an assistant principal. The job that Dr. Parker accepted with those spoken and unspoken promises with that authority that she undertook as the assistant principal.

Now, let's talk about January 6, 2023. The first week back to school after the holiday. Kids are excited. There's excitement in the air. It's a Friday. There's about a hundred kids that are filing in to Richneck Elementary School at about 9:00 that morning. 20 of whom are headed down to room 11. Room 11 is the classroom that Miss Warner was the first grade teacher of. Now, it's January. It's cold out. These kids have on hoodies, jackets, and backpacks. And in those backpacks are things that you would expect to find. Books, pencils, calculators. About an hour and a half later, at 10:30 a.m., another student, a six-year-old, who we're going to refer to as JT, comes to school. His mom drops him off. You may be wondering why JT got to school at 10:30 that day. You'll probably hear that he was on a modified schedule because JT had some behavior problems. He was also coming back to school that day from a suspension where two days prior JT had a violent episode where he took Miss Warner's phone and slammed it, cracking the screen protector. So, this is his first day back from the suspension as well. JT too has on his backpack. He checks into the office. In JT's backpack are the usual things, books, a calculator, pencils, but you're going to hear that JT also had a loaded gun. So JT goes down to room 11, which is right down the hall from the main office where the assistant principal's office is where Dr. Parker spent the majority of her day sitting at her desk. You're also going to hear that it was makeup testing day. Hosing council may say that's an important day in the life of an administrator and it is. They're doing makeup testing. It's about 30 students that day from grades three through five who are making up the testing. A very small percent.

Now it's about 11:30, 11:40, about an hour has gone by. Miss Warner goes into Dr. Parker's office. She's sitting at her desk and Miss Warner says to Dr. Parker, "JT seems off today and in a violent mood. You just threatened to beat up a kindergarter in the cafeteria." Does Dr. Parker get up from her desk and go down and check on JT? No. Does Dr. Parker look up and address Miss Warner and her concerns? No. Dr. Parker does not even look up. So, now some more time's gone by. It's a little after 12. You're going to hear that another teacher comes into Dr. Parker's office, Amy Kobach. Miss Kovak comes into the office with an alarming report and says after she's been in JT's class, spoken to some of the students at JT's class, Miss Kovac thinks that JT may have a gun in his backpack. So, does Dr. Parker remove the child from the class? No. Does she notify the next in the chain of command, the principal? No. Does she contact law enforcement? No. Does she search the backpack herself? No. Miss Kobach says she's going to go search the backpack. Then they go to recess. Now about maybe 20 more minutes or so go by. Miss Kobach comes back to Dr. Parker's office where Dr. Parker is still sitting at her desk. And now Dr. Now Miss Kovac says to Dr. Parker, "I checked the backpack. There was no gun." Right. However, in her next breath, Miss Kovac says, "Miss Warner thinks that the child JT took something out of his backpack, the gun, and put it in his pocket." Does Dr. Parker then decide to remove the child from recess while he's out there with all the other students? No. Does Dr. Parker search the child? No. She doesn't notify the principal. Instead, Dr. Parker downplays the report and she says to Miss Kobach, "He has little pockets." So, Miss Kobach leaves. Well, Miss Kobach's one of the proctors that day for the makeup testing. So, she goes out to recess and comes back to see Dr. Parker one more time. So, this is Miss Kobach's third time in the office. He says, "I wanted to let you know he has on a jacket and I'm going for the testing." So, it starts at 1:00 and she'll be back for the testing.

Now, some more time goes by. It's about 1:40. Two additional staff members go to Dr. Parker. One goes into Dr. Parker's office and says he just got off the phone with another first grade teacher. He wants to know, "Did you search JT?" Dr. Parker says, "Yes, the book the backpack's been searched." He walks out. Shortly behind him comes in the guidance counselor and he says to Dr. Parker after speaking to others and being concerned that a student actually saw bullets or a gun in JT's pocket says, "Can I search JT?" So, not only does Dr. Parker not leave her office and go down the hallway and take JT out of that classroom. Not only does she not search him, she doesn't call the police, but she makes the decision to say to the guidance counselor, "No, you cannot search the boy." She says, "Just wait. His mother will be here soon. Let her know." The mother gets there about 2:30. This is about 1:40 p.m. We've had a day now of warnings. Four warnings. So now the time is 1:58. Bang. Everybody nearby hears the sound of a gunshot. JT has now taken that firearm, pointed it at Abby, and pulled the trigger. You're going to hear that that bullet went into her hand, her left hand, through her hand, into the side of her left chest where it still lies today because it's too dangerous to remove. You're going to hear how January 6, 2023 changed Aby's life forever. She has undergone six surgeries and still has one coming up to remove a plate out of her hand. You'll be able to see her hands, the difference. She still does not have full range of motion in her left hand. And you're going to hear from those doctors and they're going to tell you about that impact from that gunshot that day. You're going to hear from her sister Hannah and her mother Julie and how they had to give Abby around the clock care for months. Hannah quit her job. Hannah moved in with Abby so she could take care of her around the clock because jurors Abby could not open food containers to feed herself. She couldn't open bottles. She wasn't able to shower. She couldn't hold a brush for her hair or wash her hair. She wasn't able to pull her pants up. She wasn't able to button her clothes. She wasn't able to drive. Abby was 25 years old on January 6, 2023. She had just started her career as a teacher. She's pouring into her students. She was excited about what the future held. In your 20s, usually some of the best times of your life. Aby's going to tell you how they've been the darkest times of her life, how the pain and trauma do not easily fade, and what she's been dealing with. And members of the jury, [snorts] you're going to hear from an expert who's going to tell you that administrators are trained how to deal with the report of a gun in school and how ignoring multiple credible reports of a firearm not only violates protocol, but it puts all lives in danger that were in that school. You'll hear from all the teachers that went to Dr. Parker on that day, four different staff members and teachers with their concerns that JT has a gun. And you're going to hear from the defense that you should excuse Dr. Parker's conduct on that day. You're going to hear Dr. Parker was part of a team of teachers prior to January 6th that were working with JT to try to help correct some of those classroom behavior problems he had. And that's true. You're going to hear that it was a six-year-old child. Who would think a six-year-old is going to bring a gun to school and shoot their teacher? Members of the jury, it's Dr. Parker's job to believe that that is possible. It's her job to investigate it and to get to the very bottom of it and to hope that that's not possible. But her job is to address it. You're going to hear Abby could have done more. But when you hear those arguments, I ask you to ask yourself, why did four different people go to Dr. Parker that day with this concern? Four different staff, four different teachers total went to Dr. Parker because Dr. Parker was the assistant principal. Dr. Parker was in the chain of command. Dr. Parker had the authority to search a student. She had the authority to remove a student from the classroom. She had the authority to call law enforcement. Four opportunities to take decisive action to do that. So, jurors, why are you here today? You're here because we're asking you to enforce a promise. A promise that Dr. Parker broke and a life has been shattered because of it. Only you have the power to decide how to make up that promise. And only you have that decide power to decide what are those harms and losses that Abby has suffered. And it's important, jurors, that you don't have to find that Dr. Parker is not a good person. We're not even suggesting that. We're asking you to look at the decisions and choices that Dr. Parker made that day because she made bad decisions and choices that day. But you can find that Dr. Parker is a good person. But you can also find that Dr. Parker breached her duty of care to the plaintiff on January 6, 2023. And I ask that you please listen carefully to each witness that you're going to hear from over the next two weeks. You're going to get to watch and hear testimony about what happened in that school on January 6th. You're going to see documents of handbooks of protocol. You're going to hear from doctors. You're going to hear from experts. So, please pay close attention to all of that. And also notice each time Dr. Dr. Parker had a decision to make. [clears throat] What that decision was that Dr. Parker made, how many opportunities Dr. Parker had to prevent what happened on January 6. And I'm confident at the end of this, you'll have a clear picture of what happened and how that tragedy on January 6 happened. Minute by minute, decision by decision. And I'm going to ask at the end of this trial, we're asking that you come back with a verdict for our client. Abby, thank you so much for your attention this morning. I appreciate it.

Approach. Sure. Do you want the record? Uh I think so. Just Okay. It's a All right. Before the defense proceeds with their uh opening statement, if there are any subpoenaed witnesses in the courtroom, I would ask at this time that you uh step out of the courtroom and into the waiting room, and council will uh be with you after uh the statement. And for the record, I understand there's a joint motion to exclude witnesses. Is that correct, Mr. B? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes. Your honor ruled on that yesterday. Thank you very much. Yes. All right. Are you prepared with your uh opening statement? Yes, I motion to move by the bill, please. human. No one could see this coming. No one could see this coming. No one could predict. Hindsight is 2020. These are not my words. In the course of this trial, the evidence will show that these are the words of the staff and teachers you will hear from in this case. These are the people who were present and were affected by the shooting that occurred, the tragic shooting that occurred at Bridge Elementary School in January 2023. These are the words of Dr. Evan Parker's accusers. They're accusers. These are the people who were her co-workers. They were her colleagues. They were people that relied on each other to make decisions. They were people who understood that a public school setting is a community and decision-m is cooperative. Although there is hierarchy, decision-m is collaborative. Those at the top, the so-called administration, depend on reliable subordinates. But they are equals. They are equals in the sense that everyone must exercise their independent judgment and discretion. They need to use their minds. The world is a complicated place. There are no easy solutions. There are no simple stories. The law recognizes this. The law recognizes that there is such a thing as hindsight bias. Fine. Hindsight. Everyone's heard the phrase hindsight is 2020. You've heard different variations of this. There's Monday morning quarterbacking. There's this is something that is embedded in the fabric of our life. It is common sense. It is also something that is a bedrock of our system of justice. The law knows that it is unfair. It is fundamentally unfair to judge another person's decisions based on stuff that came up after the fact. We all know this. We don't need a law textbook to tell us this. We know it in here. We know it in here. And guess what? That is Virginia law as well. The law requires you to examine people's decisions at the time of making them in light of the information that they have. Why would the law do that? Because that's how people make decisions. None of us, no one sitting here, not me, not anyone in this courtroom makes the decision for the benefit of hindsight. And that's a hard thing to get past. It's a very difficult thing to get past because when you hear about the tragedy, no one's disputing this is the tragedy. When you hear about what happened to you, we know this is tragic. We know this should not have happened. And you will hear from Dr. Parker's former co-workers, her associates, her former confidants. They will tell you this. They will tell you what they did. They told law enforcement. They told investigators. They told numerous people after the fact. No one could have predicted this. No one could have seen this coming. No one could have imagined that a six-year-old first grade student would bring a firearm into an elementary school and shoot their own people. And this just isn't like speculation. This isn't something that a lawyer is making up. You will hear it on [clears throat] your own witnesses. You will see it with your own eyes. You will see surveillance. You will see video testimony. You will hear from experts. And you'll be able to judge for yourself whether or not this was foreseeable. That's the heart of this case. But as everything in law, it's always a little complicated. Nothing simple. And what I mean is this. There are two there's at least two or three unusual aspects of this case. I told you that the law recognizes that people make decisions in the moment. You can't judge them with stuff they didn't know at the time. Benefit of hindsight. You don't judge it based on because this tragedy happened. It was terrible. It was a horrible outcome. Therefore, someone needs to be held accountable. That is not how the law works. And even if you decided when you hear some of this testimony, think to yourselves, I would have made a different decision. I would have made a different that's not the standard either. It is difficult. I know, but you were selected. You sat through that painful selection process all yesterday. That was for a reason. You were selected for a significant special purpose. And it's because you were selected because of an unfair. You could be impartial. You could be unbiased. And you can view the facts of this case like no one's looked at it before. You talked about invariator, the fancy word for jury selection. all the media coverage, all that's been going on. We're going to court a law down. We're going to court a law down. That's when you get to hear the facts. That's when you get to hear the witnesses themselves. You will have to come and sit back stand and look at Dr. Parker and face her and confront her and state on her face that this was foreseeable. This case is unusual. Ordinarily, under the law, in any negligence case, you got to prove certain elements. That's always true. Elements are the bits and pieces that make up a claim. They got to prove that Dr. Parker owed these people a legal duty, that they breached that duty, that they caused this injuries, and they established the damages. That's true of any negligence case. One thing that would be hard to grapple with in this case, and I know and I want to give you a preview. Now, when it comes to a legal duty, usually the question is easy. You just look up at a law text, look in the code, it's written down someplace, and it says, "The law requires you to do this. The law requires you to do that. The law requires you to not do this, to not do that." It's written black and white. And if we had that type of case, this would be much easier. We don't have a case. this is a case where the plaintiff has alleged that my client has to be assumed a duty assumed to do meaning that under Virginia law even if like the law does not impose an obligation on you to do something even though if it's not written down somewhere in a book that says Mr. Mr. Hogan has to do this or that. Sometimes you can volunteer for it. You can raise your hand and say, "I'm taking on that legal duty. I'm taking on this obligation to do something that the law doesn't require." It may seem crazy, but that's what it is. That's how it works. And you're required to apply that law. But because that is such a significant undertaking to raise your hand and volunteer to do something that the law doesn't make you do or you got to meet some very stringent requirements. And you'll hear about that. The court will give you instructions in the law, give you guide us. We'll come back up here and explain it the best we can. But what it comes down to is in a case like this where there is a six-year-old child, something so unusual, and you'll hear the testimony established. This is not an everyday occurrence. In fact, it is virtually impressed. In a case like this where it is done by when someone suffers harm due to somebody else pulling the trigger of a gun, that is third party criminal harm. That's third party intentional harm.

Your honor, I hate to do this, but I have an objection at this point. Your objection. Your honor, he is certainly going beyond the scope of what is allowed in an opening statement and getting into argument. I refrain from arguing the case and I'd ask that he do the same. Judge. You have a response. I do, judge. I think that we gave council wide latitude in ware and jury selection to instruct the jury in the law make sure that they can abide by those instructions that applies here as well during open opening statements. I'm not arguing the law. I'm stating letter law and making sure that they understand how they should have the framework so they can make sense of this case. I'm going to overrule the objection. I'm not going to give you a law. You're going to hear plenty of that later. But what you need to know is that in a case like this where someone pulls the trigger and it wasn't Dr. Parker, if you raise your hand and say, "I'm assuming a duty to exercise care to safeguard you or protect you." When I the law would make me do that normally, you have got to have a you've got to have an agreement. It's got to be express, meaning you got to say, you got to it's got to be unambiguous. And you heard council mention that she had to acknowledge it and say she claims that Dr. Parker made this promise just by being an administrator by raising her hand and saying I want to be a public servant. I want to come here and I want to educate the children of my community by raising her hand. She signed up for this. You become the judges of that. You all be the judges of that. The other unusual thing about this case is that ordinarily the standard is the reasonable person standard. What that means is when you're figuring out when somebody makes a decision or not, you got to decide, okay, is this a violation of the law or not? Are they liable? The way you assess that is from a reasonable person standard. You just imagine what would an objectively reasonable person do given the information. In this case, that's we got to go beyond that. For them to prevail, for them to recover, they need to establish gross negligence. That means that even if it was reasonably foreseeable, even if Dr. Parker or any other defendant in this type of situation should have known or should have known it was going to happen, that's not sufficient here. They need to show gross negligence. And what that boils down to is indifference. Indifference, not inadequacy. That is what you need to remember. Remember that as you're listening to the evidence. Indifference, not inadequacy. What that means is if you hear the evidence, we come back up here at the end and you're thinking to yourself, I would have made different decisions. I don't agree with what happened here. It's not they need to establish indifference. They have to establish that our client Dr. Parker exercised not even the slightest. If the evidence shows after everything shakes out and you decide and you consider it and you and you come to the conclusion, you think, look, ought to make different decisions, but you can see the evidence establishes that she exercised some degree of care. She did something, even if it turned out to be insufficient. That's the law in this case. That's the way you need to think about this case. Carry that with you when you listen to the evidence. Carry that with you when you listen to these witnesses take a stand and tell the story of what happened because you are the judge's credibility. You have to decide who's telling the truth. And you heard at jury selection council emphasized. He asked you to be brutally honest. Brutally honest. That's what the law requires of you. He's right about that. Ask if these witnesses are being brutally honest. Think about that. The last thing that you should know about this case that you should consider as you're listening to all these witnesses take a stand that there's another duty we got to talk about. Every person under Virginia law has a duty to exercise a reasonable care for their own safety. It's common sense just like how Kindates common sense. The law knows that the law accounts for it. It says that should be a law. You got a duty to exercise reasonable care for the rules. What you're going to hear in this case is evidence that will get you pause. Council ask you to think about every time Dr. Parker had to make a decision. I want you to think about every time Abby Warner had to make a decision. Think about that. Is she being brutally? It's a hard thing to do under Virginia law. If you're even slightly at fault and you fail to exercise reasonable care for your own safety, you generally cannot recover. There are exceptions and you'll hear about them. I'm not here to lecture you on the law, but you need to know this. You need to know this to understand the story you're going to hear because this story hasn't been told for real before. Miss Douglas is going to get back up here at the end of this case. She's going to ask you to hold true to the promises you made during jury selection. that you will fall into well, that you will listen carefully to the evidence, you will weigh it, you will come to him and judge me. What I want you to think about, you are not judging Dr. Parker's conduct. You are judging the evidence. Apply the law. think carefully and ask ourselves, is it really foreseeable that a six-year-old child would shoot their own future? Is that reasonably foreseeable? What is Dr. Parker indifferent? Did she fail to exercise at least some degree of care even if it didn't work out? Did Aby's Warner fail to take steps for her own safety? That's what you got to think about. Those are hard questions. Think carefully. You get one shot at this case. In jury selection, council talked about one of your roles. Your roles is like assessing the value of a dime. Like it's a prize. There's a cash reward at the end of this case. You got to assess it. This is not the anti- ratio. This is a court of law. You assess witness credibility which will be decided in the crystal court. You will look at them. You will decide. You are deciding people's lives, careers. That is what he's sick. If it is not to the diamond, apply the law. Trust your Mr. Hog.

Mark, are you prepared with your call your first witness? We are. Judge calling me a fish. And Miss Ferris, is it Dr. Ferish? Yes. Dr. Dr. Ferish, before the jury walked in, you were sworn to tell the truth. Correct. Correct. And I'm just doing that since they weren't there to watch it. Normally, they're there to watch it. Okay. Yes, sir. So, uh, Miss Ferris, can you give us a little bit of background on your current employment position? Currently, I am the director of human resources for Newport News Public Schools. And did you serve in that same role or capacity back in 2023, specifically January of 2023? Yes. And as part of your role with the Newport News Public School System, did you as a result of a shooting that occurred at Richneck Elementary on January 6th, perform an investigation? Yes. And as part of that investigation, did you interview Dr. Ebony Parker? Yes. I'm going to show you just a road map, which is Go ahead and public. And this is just my handiwork just to tell you what we're going to be talking about today. Okay. Okay. We're just going to have two stops. I want to talk to you first about your interview with Dr. Parker. Okay. And then I want to talk to you about the Newport News public schools protocols. Okay. So, let's start with the interview of Dr. Parker. How soon after the events of January 6 do you recall conducting an interview of Dr. Parker? From what I can recall, it was within two or three days. And so sometime in early January still. Yes. And during that interview, did you ask Miss Parker whether she knew that a student had a gun on campus at Richneck Elementary before the shooting? Yes, I did. And what did she say? If I recall correctly, she said something was reported to her that a student had a weapon. Would it help if I were able to show you a transcript of that interview to help refresh your memory? Yes. Yes, ma'am. Permission to approach, your honor. You may Miss Ferish, just take a moment or Dr. Ferish, excuse me, take a moment and read the initial part of the transcript and tell me if it refreshes your memory as to whether this is a transcript of your conversation with Dr. Parker. Yes. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. And if you can look on to page two, line 19 of the transcript. Can you just read that portion of the transcript silently? And does that refresh your recollection as to what Dr. Parker told you about what she was what she knew or what she was informed of? Yes. And and what was it that she knew? She knew that students reported that a student had a weapon in his backpack. And as part of your continued interview of Dr. Parker, did you learn who it was that informed her that a student had a gun in his backpack? Yes. And who was that? Miss Kovac. And as part of your interview, did you gather from Dr. Parker what time Dr. Parker learned that information? And if I can help you, it's on page four, line 13. Yes. And what time was that? 12:20. And as part of the information that Dr. Parker received about a gun in a backpack, did Dr. Parker share with you whether there was a plan to address it? As I'm reading through and recalling when you say plan, I'm not recalling a plan as much as the conversation of what happened. And and that's perfectly okay. Okay. And so is it fair for me to say at least based upon the reports from Dr. Parker in that initial interview, she did not con convey that she had formulated a plan to address it. Correct. And did she inform you during that interview whether there was a discussion with her and somebody else about searching the backpack if it helps? Page three. So, it was Miss Kovac who searched the backpack. And did Dr. Parker convey to you whether she was part of a conversation with Miss Kovac where there was a discussion about searching the backpack? Yes. And that that request came to Dr. Parker. Correct. Or was it informed to Dr. Parker? Whatever words that you think are most consistent with what Dr. Parker shared with you. So, it's my understanding that Miss Kovac checked the backpack on her own. So, if I can refresh your recollection on page three, line four. If you can read that to line eight. Okay. So, Miss Kovac was the one who You don't You don't have to read it out loud. Just read it to yourself. That's okay. And that portion that you just read, that was a portion of the transcript from Dr. Parker's own mouth. Correct. Correct. So, I'll ask you just so it tracks what's there in front of you, Dr. Parker according to her own statement stated that Miss Kovak was infor in informed her Dr. Parker that she had already asked the student the student being JT is there something in your backpack is that right. Correct. And the student had said to Miss Kovc at least from Dr. Parker statement that no there was nothing in the backpack correct. Correct. And then in the course of your interview there was then a discussion about when the students go out to recess and Dr. Parker conveyed that we can check the backpack. Is that fair? Yes. But Dr. Parker, at least based on the statements she conveyed to you, did not herself check the backpack. Correct. It was after recess based on the statements of Dr. Parker where Miss Kovak asked her, "What about his pockets?" Is that fair? Correct. I would object at this stage only to the council wide latitude, but I'd caution against leading the witness. Any objection, bleeding, any response? I'll rephrase to. That's sustained. And during the course of your interview with Dr. Parker, was there information conveyed to Dr. Parker about pockets? Yes. And what was said to Dr. Parker, at least based on her statement to you? Page three, line 17. You want me to read it. If you could? Thank you. And she says, "But you know what about in his pocket?" And I said, "Well, I don't know. Are they going out to recess?" I would object. This is improper refreshing of a witness's recollection. She cannot just read from the transcript. Again, given him wide latitude, but let's keep it within the scope of the zone. It's. All right. I believe you've been refreshing her her recollection. I have. All right. And um so I'm going to sustain that objection. So you can't read out loud. So we need you to read it to yourself and then if that refreshes your recollection to answer Mr. Pazin's question then you can do that. Does that make sense? Yes sir. Okay. Okay. So just to clean it up. Okay. Just clean up for a second. There there was a conversation between Miss Kovak and Dr. Parker that Dr. Parker conveyed to you. Correct. Correct. And in that conversation was there a question that was posed to Dr. Parker about pockets? Yes. Now, after the conversation with Miss Kovac, did Dr. Parker share with you whether she learned from any other staff members of concerns of a weapon on campus? If it may help refresh your recollection, page 6, line 14. Yes. And who was that staff member based upon Dr. Parker's statement? Mr. Rolls. And did Dr. Parker convey to you what Mr. Mr. RS may have said to her. Yes. And having read the transcript of your interview, has that refreshed your memory? Yes. And what was asked of her? And I can ask a more tailored question to help here. Did Mr. rolls ask at any point in time about checking a person based upon Dr. Parker's statement? Yes. And did Dr. Parker agree to having JT's person checked based on her statements to you? No. And based upon your interview of Dr. Parker, at what time did that conversation with Mr. roles approximately conclude based upon Dr. Parker's statement to you. Page seven, line one. 140. During your interview with Dr. Parker, did she ever state whether she personally left her office to go search a backpack for a gun? No. Did she inform you that she ever left her office to go check the student JT? No. Did she inform you whether she ever asked a member of the team, other teachers, anyone else to search the person of JT? No. Did she inform you whether she herself searched JT as in was he brought to her at her request to search him? No. Based upon her statements to to you, did she contact the school resource officer? No, not to my knowledge. Based upon her statements to you, did she contact and notify the principal? No. Based upon her statements to you, did she call 911? No. I'm going to transition now and I want to talk to you about the Newport News public school protocols. Okay. Okay. question what's been pre-marked and that means there's a little sticker at the bottom And there's a the number there is number 22. Is that correct? Yes. And there's a heading or the title of that document is what? As best as you can tell. I know it's in big letters, but I'm not supposed to say it myself. The whole cover or just what the document is? The whole cover, please. Uh, Newport News Public Schools, uh, Smart Safe Schools, Richneck Elementary, 2022 2023 multi-hazard crisis and elementary management plan. Your honor, I would object to the relevance of this line of questioning based on my prior motion limiting. I would incorporate my prior arguments and to the extent that the court in this evidence I cautionary instruction to the jury admonishing them that the written protocols do not set a standard of care or establish the existence of legal duty in this case. All right. So, I've previously ruled on the motion. Uh your objection is noted and then we'll allow the um in instruction. I believe that was my ruling on this matter. Okay. Your honor, we hadn't yet discussed what the substance of an instruction might be. Correct. And I just flag that because we disagree with some of the statements that were made by council. Correct. Well, I mean, we have to decide that and we'll work that out in instructions. But your objection is noted currently and it is contemporaneous. I I think I'm going to explain to the jury how that work. Yes. Go ahead. So, uh, in preparation for, um, this trial, which we knew was going to take a while, we actually had a day of motions to try to streamline things as much as possible. um because otherwise you would be up and down every time there was was an objection. So I have previously ruled on the record on certain documents and evidence coming in or not. And what the attorneys have to do is when that evidence comes in, if they disagree with my ruling, they just need to put that on the record that they are along with its entry objecting that I allowed that in. That's perfectly fine. That's how this is uh supposed to work. You're not to take anything away from that at all of any of my rulings. Those are legal rulings and you don't need to concern yourselves with them. Uh does that make sense to everybody? Okay. So that's why that's going to happen. It's a good example of that. The next thing is we also agreed um not agreed on but all the exhibits and there are hundreds of them uh have been pre-marked. In other words, they've already been given a number. So instead of having to have them marked, they would have to approach. I'd have to mark them. They'd have to be entered and go back. We've pre-done that. So you might hear that they're out of order, but the uh numbers will um will follow that exhibit throughout the entire case. All right. All right. Thank you all very much. Sorry to interrupt you. That's okay. May proceed. Miss Ferish, as part of your role in 2022, 2023 with the Newport News Public School System, you were made aware of this document. Correct. Correct. And you were familiar with it enough to know it existed and some of the contents of it. Is that fair? I cannot say that I am familiar with the contents of it. Okay. If you could flip through the um substance of it and tell me if Well, actually, we can streamline this. Your honor, this this was a document produced by the Newport News public school system and based upon the stipulation your honor entered previously, it was deemed authentic by the parties. And so I'm going to jump start the authenticity part with your honor's permission. All right. And that's agreeable with council. It is it is what it says it is. Correct. All right. Very well. What that means, Miss Fisher, is we've all agreed that this is in fact the multi-hazard crisis and emergency management plan. Okay. Okay. So, what I would like for you to do is if you can flip to page 12 of that plan and your honor permission to publish. What's over defense objection. Yes. So, just so the jury's tracking, this is the cover page that's in front of you. Correct. Talks about smart safe schools. Correct. Correct. And then it talks about multi-hazard crisis and emergency management plan. Is that fair? Correct. And that is specific in this document as to Richneck Elementary School. Correct. All right. Do you have page 12 in front of you now? Yes. On page 12, there's a portion here at the that talks about startup procedure. And I know it's hard to read. I'll be zooming in folks, but is that the page 12 that's also in front of you? Yes. All right. So, if we can zoom in here and we talk about the school threat assessment response protocol. Do you see that? Yes. All right. And there's a section here at the bottom that talks about procedures. Do you see that? Yes. Okay. And here it talks about the first section it talks about any student upon receiving information that a person is threatening to commit an act of violence shall and the first thing is assume the threat is serious. Correct. And on page 13 it goes through responsibilities of students in the in this circumstance of a threat. True. Are we talking? Yes. And then here when we get to this section which is the third bullet point down it talks about parents and guardians and and their responsibilities. True. Correct. And then a little bit further down we start talking about school staff members. Is that true? Yes. And in that context we're talking about the teachers of the school of rich neck elementary. As best as you understand. Yes. And again it's assume the threat is serious right? Yes. Immediately report the threat. Right. Yes. Be available and cooperative to provide statements. Right. Yes. And then the protocol changes and moves to the school administrator based on this document. Correct. Correct. And then that responsibility is shifted and it says any school administrator. Correct. Correct. And in this context, principles are administrators. Correct. Yes. Dr. Parker was an administrator. Yes. And it says again, assume the threat is credible until and unless an analysis suggests differently. True. Correct. Again, wide latitude, but patience is waiting. All right. Uh you can I'll sustain that and um allow you to rephrase your question in a non-leading manner, please. Does the policy talk about whether or not a school administrator should assume threats are credible or not credible? Yes, it does. And what does it say about that? You can read it. Any school administrator upon receiving information that a person is threatened to commit an act of violence shall assume threat is credible until and unless analysis suggests differently. And the next portion of this policy, does it talk about what, if anything, a school administrator, in this case Dr. Parker, is supposed to do as it relates to the student making the threat? Yes, it does. And what does it say about that? caused the student making the threat, if known, and on campus, to be immediately removed from the classroom and segregated into a se secured area pending further investigation. And is there a conversation within the policy or discussion about what should happen with other student or staff who may have received information? Yes. And what's supposed to what what's the school administrator supposed to do in that context? segregate any student or staff member who received the threat pending further investigation. And then there's is there discussion about what if any requirements there are for the school administrator as it relates to the staff member who is a source of information for the threat? Yes. And what does it say about that? Require the school staff member if this is the source of the information to provide immediate written statements regarding the information received. And is there discussion within the policy about contacting 911 or school resource officer? Yes. What does it say the school administrator is supposed to do in that context? Request police assistance either from the assigned school resource officer or by calling 911 for an emergency or the nearest SRO for a non-emergency to report a threat. Those are all the questions I have. Thank you, Mr. Fair. Thank you. Any cross examination? Yes, Ron. Just move it. Right. And I'd move exhibit 22, pages 12, 13, and 14, which were the pages that were referenced into evidence. All right. Uh, same objection previously noted, now contemporaneous. Besides that, anything else? I just ask that everybody continue. All right, Fran. Thank you. So admitted. So the

The record is accurate. Those pages are being moved in as number 22 and they'll be marked as 22.

Correct.

Yes.

Not at this time.

All right. No questions. So did you want her resquestered? Is she free to leave the building but be on call? How did you want to do that?

Ask her to remain subject to being on call subject to the defense.

Okay. Um I'm assuming you'll go back to work.

Yes.

Okay. You have a cell phone?

Yes.

And has that been shared with the attorneys?

Yes.

All right. And how long will it take you to be here? We were need to need you back.

Just for planning purposes.

15 minutes.

15 minutes. Okay. Thank you very much. So, you are still considered a witness for this trial. So, you're not allowed to discuss your testimony or anything you've heard, read, or said about this. And um that continues until you hear otherwise from me.

Yes, sir.

Fair enough. Any questions?

No.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you.

All right. And you may call your next witness. Next witness is John S.

[clears throat] Huh? You can stand there. Raise your right hand for me.

Do you swear that the testimony that you're about to give, you need to hold your

I do.

May court.

Good morning.

Good morning.

Can you go ahead and state your full name for the court order, please?

John Robert Sims.

And Mr. Sims, what do you do for work?

I am the music teacher at Richneck. And back in January of 2023, what did you do for work then?

I was a music teacher at Richneck.

And the acoustics are really bad. Can you speak up a little?

Yes.

All right. Thank you.

And were you at work at Richneck Elementary on January 6, 2023?

Yes, I was.

I'm going to show you if we can publish. Yeah. Can you on that day, Mr. Sims, did there come a time where you spoke with Dr. Parker about concerns that were being shared in the school.

Yes.

And how many times do you recall having a conversation or being present for a conversation with Dr. Parker?

Twice.

So what I want to do is I want to talk about the first conversation and then I want to talk about the second conversation separately. Okay.

Okay.

So the first conversation, do you recall when approximately during that day that happened?

Timewise. Yes.

Probably between 11 and 12.

And when you say probably between 11 and 12, is there something that was going on? Or in other words, was it recess before, recess after, lunch before, lunch after? That gives you a framework of when it might have been.

I don't know about the recess schedule, but I was um sitting at the registars's desk to cover the phones.

So you said approximately 11 to 12. Is that correct?

Correct. And from 11 to 12 when you were sitting at the registars's desk, was there a conversation that you had that triggered or or resulted in you then going to speak with Dr. Parker?

Yes.

And who was that conversation with?

Mrs. West.

And who is Mrs. West?

One of the first grade teachers.

And what did Miss West tell you that led you to actually go to have a conversation with Dr. Parker?

She asked about um she asked about the boy being searched.

And when we say boy, we're going to be using initials. So, we'll say JT. Is that the boy that you're referencing?

Yes.

And and what is it that Miss West asked about the boy being searched?

To my recollection, I believe she asked if he was searched.

And was why why in the course of that conversation did you feel like it was right for you to then go to Dr. Dr. Parker next.

She asked me to ask Dr. Parker.

And so did you leave the registars's desk then to go have a conversation with Dr. Parker?

Yes.

And do you recall what you might have said to Dr. Parker?

Um

Even if it's not verbatim, but what the communication was?

I believe I relayed the message from Mrs. West asking if he had been searched. And at that time, did you have any information or knowledge about why there was a question of the boy being searched?

Not to my knowledge, other than what Mrs. West had offered up.

And what was that?

That another student had come to her after recess about it. And so that's when um I believe that's when cuz I had called her about a different matter. And so then that's when she talked to me about it on the phone.

And when you say about it, I know it's I mean we're in a courtroom and this is maybe tough. What is it

About the gun?

And it was with that information that you then went to speak with Dr. Parker.

Yes. And and in the conversation with Dr. Parker, just so I'm tracking correctly, you asked whether he had been searched. That is JT had been searched.

Yes.

And what did Dr. Parker say back to you?

I believe she said that uh the backpack had been searched.

And what did you do with that information after you received it?

I relayed it back to Mrs. West.

And when you say relay, you weren't with Mrs. West face to face. You called her.

I I either called her back or I had set down the phone initially and went back and picked up the phone.

And after you conveyed to Mrs. West that Dr. Parker reported the backpack being searched, was there another conversation that then led you to have a second conversation with Dr. Parker?

Yes.

And what was that conversation?

I believe Mrs. West called the back to the office and I answered the phone again. Um and then she asked about if uh JT's person had been searched and when she asked you that is Miss West asked you whether his person has been had been searched. What did you do with that information?

Um I believe I said I wasn't sure but I would ask Dr. Parker.

And is that what led you to then go have a second conversation with Dr. Parker?

Yes.

And when you went to Dr. Parker where was she physically?

In her office. And the first time you talked to her, where was she physically?

In her office.

Did you notice at any point in time between your first conversation and the second conversation whether Dr. Parker ever left her office?

No.

In other words, no. You never saw her or No, you don't remember?

No, I wasn't really paying attention.

And she was there again when you went back for the second conversation?

Yes.

And when you got to her office for the second conversation, was there anyone else present around or in Dr. Parker's office when you got there?

Mr. Rolls was in the doorway, the other doorway. And did you overhear anything that you can recall Mr. Walls communicating to Dr. Parker?

I believe they were talking about the jacket.

And when you say the jacket, are we talking about JT's jacket?

Yes.

And do you recall anything in about the jacket that they were talking about?

Not to my recollection. Do you recall whether there was a conversation about what if anything to do at that point as it relates to JT?

Not to my recollection.

And did you participate in the conversation with Doc Dr. Parker and Mr. Walls at that time?

Yes, they were talking about the jacket and I chimed in to say that Mrs. West had called back and asked about the jacket.

And what if any information was shared with you from Dr. Parker at that moment?

I can't recall.

Were you informed that the uh by Dr. Parker that the jacket was checked?

Question judge. He has his answer.

I'm sorry. What was the objection?

He has his answer. He has responded. He's not entitled to fish for the correspondence that he's seeking. He asked question. The witness responded. He doesn't have a call.

So your your objection is asked and answered. Is that correct?

He is asked and answered, but he stuck with his answer at this stage.

All right. Your response.

Your honor, I'm just ensuring that the the witness understands it is the scope of my question, even if it's more narrow than

So, you're rephrasing. Is that correct?

I will rephrase.

I will overrule that on a rephrasing. Go ahead.

When you were part of this conversation with Mr. RS and Dr. Parker, did you hear Dr. Parker ever communicate that whether or not the jacket was checked?

Not that I recall. At what point in time did you then leave that conversation with Dr. Parker and Mr. RS?

I believe I left after I had chimed in about Mrs. West calling back. And did you then [clears throat] communicate back to Mrs. West any substance that you had learned from that conversation? And I don't need to know what it was. I'm just curious if you then relayed information back.

I can't remember.

That's okay. Thank you. [clears throat] Those are all the questions I had.

Yes, your honor. Morning, Mr. Sims.

Good morning.

Mr. Sims. You have multiple roles at Bridgeick Elementary School, correct?

Correct.

And that was true back in 2023 as well, right?

Correct.

You're a music teacher.

Correct.

You're also a resource team lead.

Correct.

You're also a testing lead.

Correct. And by testing lead I mean Abbridge neck elementary school like many public schools it was subject to statemandated testing protocols. Correct.

Correct.

And those are subject to strict regulations. You agree?

Yes.

I'm sorry.

Yes.

And if the school or administrators fail to comply with those regulations they can be subject to sanctions. Correct.

Correct.

Sanctions can include loss of lensure.

Right.

Correct.

Real penalties.

Correct.

It's a serious consequence if you violate the state testing code. Right.

Yes. And so that's one of your obligations there at the school is to assure their compliance as part of the team, right?

Yes.

At the time that this was going on back in January 6, 2023, they were doing testing at Rich Elementary School. Do you recall around that time?

Yes.

They were doing annual statewide mandated testing. You remember?

Yes.

And Dr. Parker was responsible in part for ensuring compliance with those testing protocols, right?

Yes.

And that's actually part of what she was doing in that office, right?

Yeah.

Objection. Speculation.

You just see the answer, Judge.

All right. Are you moving to strike his response?

Move to strike. Just lack of foundation as to what Dr. Parker specifically was doing.

All right. You have a response to that?

I can rephrase, judge.

All right. So, I'm going to sustain it on calls for speculation with uh allow you to go ahead and react.

Mr. Sims, Dr. Parker, you were in you were in or adjacent to her office at the time of these conversations. Right.

Correct.

Her office is where she does her business, right? That's where she does her job as the assistant principal. Correct.

Yes.

So, it's not unusual for her to be in her office doing her job, right?

Correct. But it was somewhat unusual for you to be in that office made in telephones, right?

Not particularly. No.

Well, let me rephrase. In your employment at Rich Elementary School, were you a professional secretary?

No.

Were you trained to take down calls accurately?

Did you receive specialized training and taking down calls?

No.

Ensuring that those messages were accurately relayed?

No. Did you receive any training of any kind from school authorities there or in the course of your employment there to perform secretarian views?

No.

But on that day, that's what you were doing.

Yes.

You were doing that because you were doing the favor for a friend, right?

Yes.

The registar who normally mans the phones just wanted a lunch break, right?

Correct.

And so you went there and stepped in. It was a good friend and colleague would do, right?

Correct.

And so then later that day, you found yourself in the middle of this whole situation. Right.

Correct.

It's fair to say. So, I'd also say it's fair to say you didn't expect to be in the middle of the situation when you went to work that day, right?

Correct.

Police council has talked about there were two calls, right?

Yes.

There were two calls that you received while you were in the main office there, right?

Yes.

At the time of both of those calls, Dr. Parker was near you, right?

Yes.

Can you describe the office? Is it this multiple of rooms, right?

Yes. It's not just one room and she's right next to you, right?

Well, kind of.

Well, let me be more specific. Um, this room, the main office, it's called main office for a reason, right?

Yes.

It's a communal space, right?

Yes.

People go in there to access the copier, right?

Yes.

There's a copy machines, fax machine, right?

Yes.

So, there's traffic in and out of there pretty frequently, right?

Yes.

And also, like many main offices at public schools, students are there, too, right?

Yes.

They're taken there for disciplinary reasons,

Right?

Yes. And often times they're taken to the principal to await discipline. Right.

Yes.

And that was the case on January 6th as well. Right. January 6th, 2023.

What part?

At the time or around the time of these calls, there were actually two students or multiple students in the office at the time you received those calls. Do you recall that?

Yes.

And actually that was part of why you placed that first call. Right.

Correct.

The first call was you calling Miss Jennifer West. Correct.

Correct.

Jennifer West is a first grade teacher, right?

Correct. She didn't call you, right? Just to be clear.

Correct.

I know that sounds like a dumb question, but you called her, right?

Yes.

Any question in your mind about that?

No.

And when you called her, you weren't calling her to discuss a weapon, right?

Correct.

At that stage, you had no knowledge that there was a suspected weapon on the premises, did you?

Not to my recollection, though.

The first time you heard any information that there's a suspected weapon on the premises of that school was when you spoke to Miss West, right?

I believe so. And when you went into that conversation initially, that was not your plan to have a discussion about there's a suspected weapon ever obviously.

Right.

Right.

You were initially asking her, "Hey, there's two students here in the classroom." Right.

Yes.

I believe they're your students, right?

Yes.

They got in trouble. Right.

Yes.

So, can they go back to class now?

Correct.

And she responded,

They can go back to class.

They could go back to class.

And then she says, "Oh, by the way, right? Oh, by the way, there's some more information. Would you agree?

Oh, yes. Sorry.

Sorry.

She says, "Oh, by the way, and your testimony today was that she let you know that there was a child with a suspected weapon in his possession." Right.

Yes.

But you don't remember exactly what she said. Right.

Correct.

It's been like 3 years, at least close to that, right?

Correct.

If you had to write down in detail, verbatim what she conveyed to you, you would not be able to do that. Right.

Correct. But you've testified that once you received that information, she asked you to share it with Dr. Parker, right?

Correct.

And Dr. Parker, she was in the main office, right?

She was in her office.

Her office, which is part of the main office, correct?

Yes.

The main communal space, right?

Yes.

Where there's all this traffic, right?

Yes.

Right. And it's not like you're right next to each other. It is close quarters, but she's about like 20 ft away or so. Is that a fairy?

Probably. Yes.

Right. And so to better estimate that to go and talk with her, you don't just like yell across the room at her, right? You would have to get up and talk to her, right?

Not necessarily because we were in eyesight.

You had direct eyline vision

From the desk I was sitting at.

Okay. And she was stationed at her computer, right?

Yes.

And at the time that this was going on, she was involved in annual testing, right? That's why she was in the office.

Objection. Same. Objection. Don't stand there. If you can lay foundation for that,

I understand. All right.

At the time that you were in the office with Dr. Parker, did she appear to be focused on her duties? Does she appear to be focused on her responsibilities as a principal working there?

Yes.

And also you testified that you shared some information with Dr. Parker. You can't tell anyone in this court, right, verbatim what you told Dr. Parker, right?

Correct.

This is your ballpark estimate of your recollection of what you told her, right?

Correct.

Three years later, right?

Yes.

You've also testified that there was a second call, right?

Yes.

So first call you called Miss West. initial discussion about the children and the discipline and she says, "By the way, here's some information about a potential firearm on the campus, right?"

Yes.

Okay. When you received that information,

You spoke to Dr. Parker, right?

Yes.

After you spoke with Dr. Parker, you've testified that her response was that the backpack had been searched, right?

Yes.

And then you called Miss West and you told her that. You said Dr. Parker responded, "The backpack has been searched."

Yes. You cannot testify here today that when Miss West called you, she shared where the firearm was. Said differently, you didn't know where that gun was at the time you were talking to Miss West, did you?

No.

You didn't know if it was in a backpack. You didn't know if it was on this person.

Right.

Correct.

She did not share that information with you.

Correct.

Right. And so when you spoke to Dr. Parker during that second phone call, you talked to Miss West. Right.

Yes. Correct. You turn and say, "This is important information. I have important information about a potential deadly weapon on Richneck property, right?

Yes.

That's important. You're doing your job, the job that you volunteered to do, right?

Yes.

And you turn and you convey this to her as best you can.

Correct.

Yes.

And she responds, "The backpack has been searched." Right.

Right.

Because at that time, it was reasonable to believe. Well, I'll strike that question. Strike that question, Judge. There was no discussion with Dr. Parker about the weapon being on this child's person when you spoke with her. Right.

Not with me, though.

Focusing again on the second call, you end up talking to Miss West and she gives you some more information. Right. You continue speaking with her. Right. And that's when this issue of the jacket comes up. Right.

Right.

That was your testimony today was at some point when you're speaking to Miss West,

Um, there's a discussion about this child's jacket. Right.

Yes. And once you received that information, you said, "I've got some more information now." Right. I have important information. I need to share that with Dr. Parker. Right.

Right.

And you tried to do that. Right.

Right.

And you got up. Right.

Yes.

And you walk across the office over to her room. Right.

To have that conversation.

Yes.

But when you tried to do that,

You never had that conversation, did you?

I chimed in on the conversation that was happening.

Let's back up. When you first tried to approach Dr. Park, Dr. Parker, and share the information you got from Miss West, Mr. Mr. Rolls had arrived, right?

Yes.

And before you could share the information you had received from Miss West, Mr. Rolls had got there first, right?

Yes.

And he had poked his head in there and he looked a bit concerned, frustrated you, right?

Yeah.

And when he was speaking to Dr. Parker, you couldn't hear everything I was saying. Right.

Right.

You don't know even what the beginning of the conversation was. Right.

Correct.

You just caught the tail end of that conversation. Is that fair to say?

Yes. And towards the tail end of that conversation, your testimony today was that you heard something about a jacket, right?

Yes.

But you can't tell this court, the jurors here today specifically any details about that conversation, right?

Correct.

You just don't have that knowledge.

Correct.

No further questions. Thank you.

Yes, your honor. Morning, Mr. Sims.

Good morning.

Mr. Sims, there was a question posed to you as to whether Dr. Parker was focused on her duties and responsibilities. Do you recall that?

Yes.

And we've already talked about and this is already in evidence as plaintiff exhibit 22 permission to publish your honor.

You may go.

This is page 14 of exhibit 22. This is the crisis management protocol. And do you see that front that very top portion of this?

Yes. It talks about a responsibility of a school administrator. Is that right?

Yes.

What does it say?

The first one?

Yes. The first one that I start.

The school administrator shall take appropriate action to ensure safety of the students and staff.

And back in January of 2023, there was also a staff handbook at Richnneack Elementary School. True.

Yes.

Stage judge.

All right. Is this a document we've discussed previously in the motion?

No, we have not, your honor. It's it's a I don't think we need a sidebar or we need to have the jury excuse for this argument.

All right. And what's the title of the document again?

This is Richneck Elementary School 2022 2023 staff handbook. Mrs. Bana, principal Dr. Ebony Parker, assistant principal. Updated August 15th, 2022.

Has been given an exhibit number?

Exhibit number 108.

All right. And uh not previously uh handled motion today.

Not specifically addressed.

Okay. All right. And so what is your objection?

Uh it was produced after motion day. It arrived last week for the first time. Your honor, we had never seen this before. Never been produced in discovery. Was not relied on by any expert and showed up last week in two phases. One, someone had taken a screenshot and then the second the full copy and we objected that day on our supplemental objections to the witness and exhibit list.

All right. Uh so you're arguing that that is a it was produced late in the discovery process in violation of an order. Is that correct?

Was in violation of the rules of discovery and it was also beyond the court's mandated time to disclose witnesses and exhibits.

Your honor, we received this exhibit late. We shouldn't have and that's because it was requested from Dr. Parker during the course of discovery and not produced and we had to obtain it through a third party source. We obtained it past the deadline and we disclosed it promptly. And now at this stage, we based upon the line of questioning that was provided, we either intend to refresh the witness's recollection if he doesn't recall the handbook or we intend to specifically introduce it into evidence if accepted by this court.

All right. So, you're not moving it at this point. You are just crossing. Well, you're directing. You're actually on direct now. So, um I'm going to overrule the objection allow him to direct on the handbook.

May I add something to the record, your honor?

Sure.

Um with respect to Mr. Byzen statement that it was requested in discovery as uh all discovery uh was objected to on the basis of the fifth amendment uh on all any questions related to handbooks. Mr. Benzen the pliff never moved to overrule the objection based on the fifth and to come in here now and say that we somehow did not produce something is is not fair.

Okay. Overrule may proceed. You may.

Permission to express the witness. Yes. Mr. Sims, I'm handing you the document or I guess I just handed you a document that says Richneck Elementary School 2022 2023 staff handbook. Do you see that?

Yes.

Was this a staff handbook for you all at Richneck for that calendar year?

Yes.

And that included January of 2023?

Yes. And earlier you were asked about um questions as it relates to uh duties and responsibilities. Do you recall whether this document specifically discusses responsibilities of a school administrator that is assistant principal when it has to do with classroom management and safety? You can answer. Do you recall without looking at it whether it addresses that topic?

Not specifically.

Okay. If you would flip to there's a little red number at the bottom that says 9074. [snorts] If you go to that page,

Does that refresh your recollection as to a portion of this staff handbook that addresses classroom management and safety?

Yes.

And do you recall without looking at it? I know it's right in front of you, but do you recall without looking at it whether there are tiered behaviors within the handbook?

Yes.

Your honor, I object to the stage to this line of questioning. I don't see how this is assisting or try finder effect. I don't I would ask for a profer from opposing council. What is the relevance of this?

Yeah. How does this go towards anything that was brought up in cross-examination?

Your honor, he asked about responsibilities. The tiers within the handbook delineate responsibilities of administrators and staff members and in situations of classroom safety. It's been the the position of the defendants both from cross so far in an opening statement that there was responsibilities shared amongst individuals and there's a stand there's a handbook applicable to their relationships that tell us what their responsibilities were. If you didn't ask the qu he asked the question about duties and responsibilities and so we get to explore what duties and responsibilities were being attended to by Dr. Parker.

I'm going to overrule the doors been open in cross-examination. Objection. Go.

Ahead.

And based upon this staff handbook there's level three behaviors. True.

Yes. And what does it say about level three behaviors as best as you recall? And if you need to refresh your recollection by looking at it, that's okay.

Um, level three behaviors are reported to school security and administration.

And is there a description under is there a section that talks about student behaviors specific that are level three behaviors?

Yes.

And is there a student behavior within the handbook that specifically applies to a circumstance we're talking about here today?

Yes. And what does it say?

At the stage, this is lack of foundation for the basis of this witness's knowledge. This sounds like he doesn't have any independent recollection of this document. He's just being asked to read from this document itself. To the extent that there's an argument about opening the door, I still stand on my objection, but this is a discreet issue. I mean, this this is his bare recital by effectiveness of what is written in the internal policy has no bearing proceeding to this has no bearing in this case. I would object on the ground of relevance as well as two for three balancing because this is going to invite the jury to render it verdict based on a no proper basis. So has no relevance collateral right response to relevance objection. Now.

Your honor I I believe the foundation was just laid with the witness that first this is a staff handbook that applied in January of 2023. He was able to identify it as a handbook that applied in January 2023. And when asked whether there's a level three tiered behavior that specifically is pertinent to the issue here, he says yes. It's within the handbook itself. if we've laid the appropriate foundation. It's certainly relevant to the issues in the case, especially in the circumstance in which the argument's been posed to the jury that this is a case about indifference and not inadequacy. And so what the individual knew, the defendant knew about their responsibilities and how to balance and weigh those responsibilities is certainly pertinent. And in light of the fact that they've crossed this individual on the fact that she was tending to her responsibilities on that day, it's relevant for us to address what other responsibilities she agreed and promised to keep.

Right. Overruled on foundation uh relevance. I think those were the two latest ones.

Go. [sighs] Ahead.

Under student behaviors, is there a specific behavior that we've been discussing so far in your testimony?

Yes.

And what does that say?

Possession of a weapon.

And does this uh as best as you can recall or if you need to refresh your recollection, talk about what next steps and responsibilities to take next steps are on the administrator, the assistant principal.

To secure students and ensure safety.

Is there others?

Immediate notice to administrator and security. Email a detailed account of the incident and everyone's roles, names, locations, and time.

Now, you were asked about whether Dr. Parker focused on her duties and responsibilities based upon your observation of Dr. Parker during your first conversation. Between your first and second conversation when she was in Eyishot and your second conversation and after, did you observe her attend or focus on any of those responsibilities?

Your honor, Robert Jackson, that this is he's calling for expert testimony. He's not an expert.

Overruled. Right. Now you want to object that is that requires extra testimony of overruing that. Go.

Ahead. Do you recall the question you want me to ask you?

Can you ask it again?

Yes, sir.

From the time that you had your initial conversation with Dr. Parker and then you sat at the registars's desk, you could see Dr. Parker. Then you had a second conversation with Dr. Parker. During any of that time, did you observe her take any actions that were focused on the responsibilities that we've just addressed in this handbook regarding the possession of a weapon?

Um, because of the position of the registars's desk, I'm actually facing away from her door, so I couldn't tell you what she was and what is not doing.

During your time there, did you see the student JT come into the administration office?

Not that I recall. No.

Did you see Dr. Parker leave the her office to go potentially look for him?

Not that I observe. No.

Did you overhear her notifying security?

No.

Now, um, there's a question asked of you in cross- examination about not knowing where the gun was. You recall that question?

Yes.

Did you observe Dr. Parker take any actions to try and locate where the gun was?

Not that I recall. All the questions I have cross.

Yes. Based on redirect. That's right. Sure. You didn't see Dr. Parker take any actions after your conversation, last conversation, sir, because you weren't paying attention to it, right?

Correct. No further question. Thank you.

All right. Did you want him resequered on call or is he excused?

Excused from our judge.

All right. Defense.

Judge, do we have him on call for the time being?

Okay. All right. So, you're not being released as a witness at this time, but you are being released to go back to work. Um, if that's what you're doing today. Um, do the attorneys, defense attorneys have your cell number?

Okay. No.

All right. So, um I'm Well, after you've called him, do you have a cell phone?

I do.

Okay. Um so, how long will it take you to be back here at some point uh today? Let's say traffic 20 30 minutes.

Okay. All right. So, uh just with having said that, I'm going to let you leave the courthouse. You still are um not allowed to talk about your testimony today. If you have to tell anyone where you were, you were in court and that's it. Can't talk about your testimony, read, or hear anything about this case. Please report. Um,

Good afternoon.

Good afternoon.

Good morning. Still apologize.

Could you go ahead and state your full name for the court reporter?

Um, Ronzo Duron RWS, Senior.

And Mr. RS, what do you do for work?

Um, school counselor.

And what school system do you currently work with?

I currently work with Virginia Beach Public Schools.

And before your time with Virginia Beach Public Schools, were you employed by the Newport News Public Schools?

I was.

And what was your job title then?

School counselor.

And what school, if any, were you working at in January of 2023?

Uh, Richneck Elementary.

And were you at work on campus January 6, 2023 at Richneck Elementary?

Yes. Okay.

Mr. Rolls, I'm going to show you if we can publish for you just a it's a little road map. It should pop up on your screen. Okay.

And it's just to give you an idea of the nature of the questions I'm going to ask you today. Okay. Okay. So, we're going to talk about information generally, but I want to talk to you first about what you learned on January 6th, what you shared, and who you shared it with,

And then what information you received back? Okay.

Um, on January 6, was there a time in which you had a conversation about student who we're calling JT?

Um, yeah. Later that a probably later that afternoon, I had a conversation about JT. And when you say later, give us a context of what that means in in your life at Richneck.

Um, probably late afternoon. Richneck was called a B or C school. I can't remember exactly how they determined it, but um, it was a later school. So, normally time they didn't dismiss me until around about late 4 3:45 almost 4:00. So, I believe on that date it was around probably it was after 12. So, I would say between the hours of 12:45 to like 1:15 around that time is when I was informed about some information about JT. And who informed you of information about JT?

Originally, it was kind of like indirect. I spoke to Miss West who was a teacher, first grade teacher across the hall from Mrs. um um Soner. So, um she had brought to my attention there was a student from her classroom that was transferred over to her classroom that was very upset about a situation that he was um passion was passed on to him that um really was upsetting him and she wanted me to speak to him, that particular student.

I'm going to unpack that a little bit just to make sure we're we're tracking. And my understanding is that [clears throat] you call Miss Warner, Mrs. E. Is that right?

Yes. And it's totally okay to call her Miss Cy in the courtroom as well.

So, you had a conversation with Miss West in which she communicated that there was a boy that was in her classroom that

He was currently in Miss West classroom, but he was in Miss D's classroom as a student.

Got it. So, again, I just want to make sure everyone's tracking, right? This is a boy that's not JT, correct?

Who um was assigned to Mrs. E's classroom on a normal day-to-day basis.

Correct.

And on this day, January 6th, he was physically in Miss West's classroom. Correct.

And that classroom is across the hall from Miss Z's classroom.

Correct.

And it was while he was in Miss West's classroom that Miss West shared with you that she gathered information from this boy.

Yes.

And just the first initial of the boy just so we can track him. What's the first initial of his first name?

R.

And so this boy R. Did Miss West share with you what the boy R shared with her?

Yes.

And what was that?

Basically, she said he was upset because um JT during recess time had mentioned to him something to the fact that he had some type of ammunition or bullets. I think the terminology was utilized and he sold him showed him or displayed it to him. And during that time, he also told uh R that if he had told anybody that he was going to harm him in some type of way. I think the word was to shoot.

And again, I just want to unpack so we're tracking the people correctly. It was conveyed to you that JT had informed R that he had bullets

And that if R said anything about it, JT would shoot him.

Yes.

And did you interpret that as a threat?

At the time when I spoke to R, I did not because he was not very coherent about what he was trying to display. And um personally, I just didn't think cuz I had spent a lot of time with JT. Um I had been part of his, you know, treatment plan for like a year and a half. So,

We're not gonna get too.

Yeah. But, um, take a long story short. I know I did not didn't answer the question.

Okay. But you did it, it raised concerns enough to you to have a conversation with Dr. Parker.

Yes.

And those concerns were specific about the report that you had just received about something with bullets and shooting.

Yeah. Because normally time we have that you try to investigate. So, we wanted to look into it. Yes.

And so, as from that information, did you then So, that's sort of what we learned, right? So, we have bullets plus a shoot. And did you take that information and share it with anybody?

Well, I can't recall if I shared it per se besides the teachers who already shared it with me, but we did want to look into if he had some type of ammunition or things to see figure out where that may be at. So, we asked about the backpack and where he might store that particular, you know, items at.

And and you're using the term Wii. So, I just want to make sure we're tracking who the Wii stands for there.

Well, we at the time would probably Miss West and Miss Z.

Okay. And so this is a conversation amongst you three. [clears throat]

And then did you then take that conversation and go talk to Dr. Parker?

Yeah, I asked cuz um they said that um they had already I was informed they had already checked his backpack. The backpack was in possession of administration at that time. So I said well even if they checked his backpack and that it was in there had they checked this person and they said nobody had checked this person at that time. So my request was to go to speak to administration about checking this person.

And was that your understanding of how things went at Richneck Elementary?

To an extent in my experiences. Okay.

And so you go to administration. Who do you go to specifically in administration?

Um principal or assistant principal, whoever is in like my boss in charge.

And on that day, January 6th, who did you go speak with?

I spoke to Dr. Parker.

And when you went to speak with Dr. Parker, did you ask about searching the person?

Well, we discussed about the backpack and then I did ask um would it be okay if I checked this person? Yes.

And what did Dr. Parker say back to you?

She basically said cuz he was on a certain plan that they had already checked the backpack. Nothing was in there. So she said um well, you know his mother will be coming to get him soon so we can hold off and wait and maybe when the mom comes and pick him up we can check um check his person at that time.

And did you interpret that conversation as giving you permission to go search JT?

No. I I took it as in she wanted me to hold off and um I didn't want to step over any boundaries so I wasn't going to check them without permission. So, cuz we didn't have any security, anything at that time.

And so, [clears throat] do you recall approximately what time that conversation ended between you and Dr. Parker?

I I don't recall the time.

Do you recall at some point in time?

Um, just so I'm tracking in terms of timeline, we just talked about in information received, which was your conversation with Dr. Parker,

Right? And other than what we've just addressed in terms of information received, the statement she made to you about waiting for mom,

Was there any other information that she conveyed to you at that time?

Not that I recall. No.

What did you, Mr. Rolls, do as a result of that conversation?

Um, I just went back I I left out of the office and I did go back to Mrs. Z's classroom and I walked into the classroom and I do remember Miss Z was in the back of her classroom at like what they call the moon table and um as the students are working and I expressed to her, I said um well, I spoke to Mr. Dr. Parker. She said she didn't want me to check his person at this time and um I told her if she would need any more assistance just to let me know and um that was pretty much it. Then after that I left and went back to my office.

How soon after that conversation with Miss Z did you receive any sort of information about a shooting?

I didn't receive anything until they came over the announcements with the um the lockdown.

And tell us about what you heard then.

Well, when the lockdown originally went, it just sounded like it might have been a drill and any school lockdown, you know, you're supposed to stay in place, lock your doors and things of that nature. Um, so I just proceeded to do so, cut my lights off, turn my door down cuz my office is far on the other end of the building where the classroom is at. But then maybe momentarily, maybe a few seconds after that, another frantic lockdown was um mentioned over there, the loudspeaker, and um I knew something was not right. And when you say you knew something was not right, what did you do after you heard the frantic call?

I know Mr. Rolls, it's okay. [snorts] I um got on the walkie-talkie and asked anybody need assistance and no one answered. So procedure is not to leave my area but I left my area to go around the corner to see what was going on. As I proceeded to go around passing the cafeteria area down the main hall and there's another main hall area. We go heads down to the front office. Um, there was janitors in the hallway and um and I could see speckles of blood on the floor and we were cleaning it up and I I said you know what are you guys doing? It was a lock. You know I ain't supposed to be out there and one of the janitors mentioned to me they said um they got them and I'm like they got who? And they like the student in the classroom out here. So I proceeded past the janitors into Mrs. Z's classroom cuz at the door the door was open and um as I stepped in [snorts] um Mrs. um Wac I mean Miss Amy had JT over in the corner and she had him like in a like a hole not like a restraint like just a hole like hold somebody's arms and I said what's going on and he she said um he shot her and um I said he did what? And she said yeah and I said where's the weapon? was a gun and she had pointed across to the hall. So I walked through the classroom on the far end and the weapon was on the floor. My initial reaction was to cuz another janitor wasn't still inside the classroom at the time as well and I didn't know would he try to break away from the reading specialist Amy.

Um, can I ask a quick followup?

Yes.

Was the police on scene yet?

No.

And so you saw the weapon on the floor in the classroom before the police arrived?

Yes. And then um from what you could tell in your observation, did the gun

stay in that location until the police arrived?

Yes, cuz like I was saying, um, I was going to move it cuz I wasn't sure if he was going to try to get at it again, but, um, I, I wasn't going to touch it without a glove or something. So I asked the janitor or so to give me a glove or something and, um, before that even occurred, that's when the officers did proceed into the classroom.

Thank you, Mr. Ross. Prior to January 6th, was there ever an occasion in which you attempted to search a student for another reason?

[snorts] Not that I recall. No.

Were you ever provided or were you ever given any warnings or reprimand not to not to search a student without someone present or administrators present?

Not that I recall. No.

Understood. Thank you. All right. Any cross examination?

Yes, sir. Good. Good afternoon, Mr. Walls. How are you?

I just have a few questions for you so the jury can hear the whole story. Um, uh, you mentioned that you'd worked with a student before, JT.

Yes.

And you were part of his student success team. Is that correct?

Yes.

Okay. And he had some behavioral issues.

Yes.

And he also had some learning issues.

Yes.

And you were very familiar with him.

Correct.

And he had uh been taken to Dr. Parker's office on multiple occasions.

Yes.

And in fact, two days before, um, he threw Miss Warner's cell phone.

Correct.

Yes. Yes. And you were called to her room either by Miss Werner or Miss West.

Correct.

Yeah. I was called in a walk and talk.

They told you come down and get him and take him out of here.

Correct.

Okay.

Now, Friday, January 6th was a little bit different, wasn't it?

Yes.

You were in fact dealing with student A with Miss West class.

Okay. Yes, sir.

And you and Miss A were dealing with student A who had caused a major disruption in the school.

Correct.

When you say student A, who are you referred to? Exactly.

The student A who was in Miss West class that you had taken to your office. Do you recall taking a student into your office to counsel them? Student A.

That that wasn't what Miss That wasn't Mrs. West classroom. That was another student. She was a first grade student, but it wasn't Mrs. West.

Okay. So, you had brought student A back down to the classroom.

Yes.

Right. And then you learned Miss West talked to you about some something she wanted to tell you about student art.

Correct.

Okay. But Miss West didn't seek you out.

No, that to go. No.

You came down the hall and sort of stumbled on this information.

So, at that point, you had heard nothing about JT that day?

Not to that point, I recall. No.

Okay. In fact, you knew he'd come back from suspension.

I knew that. Yes.

Okay. And at some point, you checked in to see how he was doing that day.

Yeah. I think I walked past the hall. I don't know if I came exactly into the classroom, but I came down the hallway area.

Okay. And you hadn't heard anything other than what student R told you?

I recall.

Okay. So, you took student R outside in the hall.

And spoke to him.

Yes.

Never heard anything about a gun?

No, not at all.

You heard something about bullets.

And because student R was five or six,

you did you decided did you feel like you needed to investigate it?

Well, like Yeah, that's why I went to ask about the bag and everything. Yes.

Okay. And, um, Miss Werner never sought you out about JT that day.

Correct.

Not that I recall. No.

And you No one you didn't hear any walkie-talkie traffic about JT that day?

I If it was, it wasn't towards me. No.

Okay. And so you spoke with R outside of Miss West classroom.

And when you spoke with R, you didn't feel the need to take him to the office.

Correct.

Oh, R.

Yes.

No.

And JT was across the hall in Miss Werner's classroom. And you didn't feel the need to take R out of the classroom, did you?

Not at that.

R or JT?

JT?

No, not at that time. No.

And you are a member of uh the you're a guidance counselor and you're involved in discipline and counseling students on discipline.

Well, guiding them. Yes. Not so much in charge of discipline, though.

But you do counsel students.

Yes.

And And you're probably a member of the threat assessment team at the time.

Yes. Right.

Okay. So, at that time, you did not feel the need to remove

JT from Miss Warner's classroom.

No.

You didn't feel the need to clear the classroom?

No.

Didn't feel the need to call for a lockdown at the school.

No.

So, what you did is you went and talked to Dr. Parker.

Yes.

And you and Dr. Parker have been talking about student A as well.

Correct.

Um, the one that I brought back from the classroom.

Yes.

I may have mentioned, but that was situation that I knew it was kind of under control. I thought I brought that student back.

So, if Dr. Parker was involved in dealing with student A, you just don't have any knowledge of that.

Not.

So, you go back and you talk to Dr. Parker and you tell her uh you have some conversation.

Yes.

And that was over many years ago now. were passed 3 years ago.

Yes.

And do you recall the exact details of the conversation?

I don't exact details. I just know I we that it had been brought to my attention about the backpack having been checked and, um, whatever it was said about the, um, ammunition or bullets and I was like, well, you know, if he has nothing within his possession within the backpack, would it be okay to check his person? That was the conversation I do remember.

Okay. And Dr. Parker didn't refuse you search refuse the search of the person, did she?

She I don't I don't even want to call it refusal. She just said we will hold it off. It was not that the fact that we she maybe she didn't want to check later, but I know at that time, no, she didn't want me to check.

She didn't want to check at the time. She wanted to wait for his mother to get there. And you've stated that you understood why because he's six and checking person.

Yeah. She didn't want to step over any boundaries in that situation. No.

And you didn't feel the need to go around Dr. Parker, did you?

No, I did not.

You didn't feel the need to track down Principal Newton and say, "Miss Newton, we've got a situation here. Dr. Parker won't let me search that child."

You didn't feel that at all?

No.

And in fact, you decided to go back to your office.

Yeah. I went back to speak to Mrs. Zer first, then I went back to my office. Yes.

And then you were in your office and at some point you understood that there was a lockdown.

Yes.

And you came down the hall.

Yes.

And you saw the janitors and they were mopping blood.

And you understood from Did one of them say something to you?

Yeah. They said they got him.

And when they said they got him, did you say, "Oh, it's JT. It must be JT." That was

Did you have any idea who they were talking about?

I had no idea.

And And it wasn't until you went in the room.

Yes.

That you knew that it was JT?

Yes.

And the law enforcement came

eventually?

Yeah.

And after that, you went back to your office.

Yes.

And you cried, didn't you? Because this was shocking to you.

Yeah.

And Mr. Ross, at any time when you were dealing with this situation, up until the time you saw that child in Miss Kovac's room, did you ever think that JT was a threat to that school?

In my personal opinion, in the time I spent with him, I wouldn't have thought he would have took it to that level. No.

And did you think that you were comfortable leaving him in the classroom while you had the conversation with Dr. Parker and then going back to your office? It was an evolving. Isn't it true that it wasn't a credible threat at that point?

I executive would know.

It's all the questions I have.

Any regret?

Yes.

Mr. Rolls. You were asked about your feelings and how you didn't feel like you needed to ask or do certain things that day. Do you recall that?

Right.

You did have a bad feeling though.

I felt more regret after.

Well, you were when you were interviewed by Miss Ferish. Do you recall that? She was with the Newport News public school system.

Oh yeah. Um, I mean, I know he had a lot of concerns and he had anger management issues and maybe maybe so cuz the interaction me and him had was different than he might have had with other people and maybe that's why I didn't feel he was such a credible threat. But I can't determine if that's how you know.

Right. And and and sometimes people's actions towards different people varies,

right?

And this is a six-year-old who two days prior took specific action against Mrs. Z,

right?

And so you had a good understanding at that time that she might treat her differently that he treated you.

Yeah. Yeah.

And when you spoke with Miss Ferish and you were talking about the incidents, that was close in time

to when it actually happened, right?

It was in January of 2023 that you had that conversation.

Right.

And when you went into Mrs. Z's classroom with the information from Dr. Parker that was sort of hang tight.

Yeah.

And what was Mrs. Z's demeanor?

I just remember her her facial expression. And it was kind of like a look of shock and her eyes were very wide and she just kind of looked at me very strangely that that was the outcome of my request. But that's why I try to you encourage her that, um, I would be there for she needed me to hang tight.

And is that one of the reasons you didn't have a good feeling?

Probably.

[snorts] You were asked earlier about never having heard anything about a gun. Do you recall that question at the very moment?

If someone said the word gun to you, would it have changed your impression?

If I put myself back in that moment, and like I said, I spent a lot of time as a lapse. I can't definitely say what my thoughts would have been.

Okay. And when it was conveyed to you that it was bullets and you had asked for permission to search this person,

what was it that you in your mind were searching for?

In my mind, I probably searching to see if if he might have had some type of item of, you know, because sometimes we talk about elementary students that have been doing this job for a long period of time. And you know, bullets could be like somebody might think a bullet was like an end of a pencil eraser. I explained this before or some different item that might have been a shiny. So, it's just the fact that the reason why I asked to search this person because I want to be more definite about if something if he had something on his person or not. And that includes search to see if he had a gun.

Right.

And the message that you learned of was that it was bullets. And if he says anything about it, he's going to shoot.

Right.

How do you shoot shoot bullets?

I'm telling you, you shoot with a gun.

Those are all the questions I have.

Any recalls?

Just a few. You were, um, Mr. Rolls, you were asked about the interview by Miss Ferris. Is that correct? Do you recall in the interview with Miss Ferris talking about feeling guilty for not preventing the shooting?

Right.

And and did you recall saying that that's hindsight bias?

Your honor, relevance.

All right. What's the relevance?

He asked about the interview.

Kind of opened the door on his feelings. So I'm going to overrule that.

That's okay.

And do you recall saying that's hindsight bias that you were feeling?

Hindsight bias. Regret, guilt, hindsight bias. I don't know how you have hindsight per se. If you look at it in my my vision, it's just maybe I could have done more. So they used to say hindsight in that in that position been yes.

And do you recall Miss Farah saying to you none of us could have ever imag?

Yeah.

She just keeps going.

Right. Um, there an objection has been made. Do you have any response that you'd like to make to that objection?

He brought up the conversation with Miss Ferish.

All right. But what's your specific objection then?

Objection. The objection is the statement of Miss Ferish is a hearsay statement.

The the question itself is hearsay. Do you have a response to It's not offered for the truth of the matter of murder.

What's your response to that?

Your honor, there is no other purpose that it could be offered other than the impressions of somebody who is not relevant to the matter here and it's your say whether or not it's relevant.

All right. I'm going to sustain the objection. I'm going to order that it be stripping from the record. You not to consider any of that language that came from the question came from an attorney and is not testimony.

Right. Thank you.

All right. Any other questions?

No further questions.

Okay. Thank you. All right. Do you want him uh excused or resequested or on leave for

he's released from our honor?

Okay.

He's under subpoena with the defense. So, we would ask that he remain in contact with us if we need to call him again.

All right. You have the ability to contact him.

Yes, we do.

Okay. Very good. All right. So, I'm going to allow you to go back to work. Um, and I'm assuming that that would it would if you were called back, it will take you about an hour to get here.

Yeah.

Okay. Um, well, we will give you at least that much heads up. You are still a witness in this case because you're under subpoena by both sides. So, I'm directing you and in fact ordering you not to discuss your testimony, uh, with anyone about this case. If anyone asks, you were in court. That is all you're allowed to say. Any questions for me?

Yes, sir.

Thanks for being here.

Thank you. You may proceed.

Thank you, your honor. And has Miss West been sworn in, your honor? Thank you. I appreciate that. Um, and may you state your name for the record, please, and spell it for the court reporter.

Jennifer West. J E N I F E R W E S T.

Thank you. And Miss West, can you tell the jury how are you currently employed?

I'm a first grade teacher at Richneck Elementary.

And how long have you been a teacher?

23 years.

Uh where were you on January 6th, 2023 as a teacher?

Rich Neck Elementary.

And which grade were you teaching then?

First grade.

Um, and you're familiar with Abby Warner?

Yes.

Okay. Uh can you tell the jury how you knew her in January 6th, 2020?

She was my teammate and taught across the hall.

And tell the jury on that day, did something happen at recess that stuck out to you?

Yes. Um, my class was a few minutes late going out to recess. Um, Aby's class and another class were already outside. Um, when I got out there, I was told that or Abby told me that she saw JT take something from his backpack and put it in his coat. And I spent the rest of recess kind of watching JT and another student. Um, R. They kept going behind the tree at the playground and then R would walk away. They'd come back together and I witnessed that for 15 or 20 minutes while we were outside.

And then after recess, uh, tell the jury where did you go immediately after recess?

I went initially and we had a second entrance into the school. I had a student that was acting aggressively and I opened the side door and he took off into the hallway and I followed him down that other hallway towards the office. Um, and when I got to the office, I hollered inside to um, Mr. Sims, our music teacher, who was standing at the counter, and told him I needed some help with this student. Continued down the hall, and when I got to the corner, the student turned right, and to the left is the first grade hallway. Um, and at at the intersection, I ran into Mr. Walls and Dr. Parker.

And let me slow you down right there. Um, what did you do with the rest of your class when you went after the other boy?

Um, we were in the process of lining up from recess. And when we come in from recess, one teacher typically would blow a whistle and every class would get in line with their teacher.

[snorts] And so my class walked inside with Aby's class and the other I don't remember if the other teacher had gone in yet or not.

And just so the jury understands, so when you're at recess, it's typically all the first grade students.

Yes.

Okay.

Uh and so back to you said you saw Dr. Parker and you saw John Sims.

Yes.

And then do where do you go from there? Do you turn back to your class?

I went to my class. Yes.

So, as you're walking to your class, is there anything you do involving the other student R, who you saw with JT at recess?

I did. I asked to speak with him to to ask him what was going on at recess.

Let me just ask you, uh, why did you talk to R?

Partially to find out because we were watching their interaction.

To find out what

what there it seemed that something was being hidden at recess. And when I pulled R out of I can't honestly remember if it was from the line or from the classroom, but I pulled him to the hallway. And let me ask you, was there anyone else in the hallway with you as you're talking to R?

Not initially. Um Abby may have been standing at her door because we had both our classes. Um, and I asked him what was going on. He said, "I can't tell you." And he was visibly nervous. And I said, "It's okay. You can tell me." And he said, "No, I can't." He said that he would hurt us. He would blow us up. And I said, "What do you mean?" I said, "It's okay. You can tell me." And he told me, he said that JT had a gun and he saw it in the bullet. And I said, "Well, what color was it?" Trying to see if it was real or not, I guess. Um, and he said, "Well, it was bullet colored." And he was crying at that point, teeyed, and I had him come into my classroom. And I called the office to report it. And, um, Mr. Sims answered the phone. And then I went back to my door and Mr. RS was bringing my other student.

And before you get into Mr. s. Why did you feel the need to call the office and report it?

Because R has said that JT had a gun.

Was that the protocol to call the office and report it to an administrator?

Yes.

Uh, and did you send R back to Miss Warner's class or did you keep R?

I kept I kept R in my class for the rest of the day. He was he was visibly scared. He was worried that that JT was going to act. Um, he which is why he didn't want to tell me to begin with.

And can you describe for me as you're talking about him being visibly scared? What does that look like? you could just his demeanor, his facial expressions.

Um, he when I said is okay, you can tell me. When he the words finally came out of his mouth, he had tears. I was at that point convinced that he had seen something.

Okay. And then you were talking about Mr. RS coming down to your classroom. So what happened then?

Mr. RS brought my student back to me and I said, I can you talk to him? He Mr. RS is a guidance counselor. So, we rely on them to to speak to children when they have some big emotions. And I said, "He's scared. Like, he is visibly shaken. Could you please talk to him?" And I reported to Mr. RS that I had been told the backpack that JT's backpack had been checked while we were at recess. And I said to Mr. RS, "Why can't we check his person? R says he had it on him. Can we check him?" And at that point, Mr. RS left my room.

Let me slow you down right there. So, before Mr. RS leaves your room. Do you see Mr. RS talk to R?

I can't remember if if I saw the conversation or not. Um, it was right outside my classroom door and I honestly don't remember where my position was at that point.

Once Mr. RS is leaving and R's coming in, what what does he look like then? What's his demeanor?

How he was scared. I had him sit at um one of my tables. A student was absent, so I put him in an empty student seat. And every time he'd get up, he got up frequently and it was like side eye to look out the out the classroom door window. Um, it seemed to me that he was checking to see what was going on across the hall.

When he came back from talking with Mr. RS, did he still have teary eyes?

Yes, teary eyes.

Uh, so tell me where, if you know, did Mr. RS go when he left your classroom?

He said he was going to Dr. Parker to ask permission to search.

Okay.

JT.

Uh, and then did you see Mr. RS again that day?

He came back and told me that we were told we could not search him.

Okay. And then did you keep R in your classroom?

I stayed in my classroom even after after the incident.

And when you say the incident

and did you hear the shooting?

Yes.

Okay. Um, once you heard the shooting, what did you think that was?

I knew it was a gunshot.

And where did you think it had come from?

Aby's room.

Did you Did someone open your door at that moment?

I did.

Okay. I opened the door and Aby's class came across the hall. I saw the a side view of Abby. I couldn't see her face. Um, I knew that she had been shot cuz there was blood on the floor and I saw her hand. And once I got all of the students in, I shut my door and followed lockdown procedures even though it locked down. Had not been called yet.

Okay.

And are still with you in the class at that time?

Yes.

And did you see JT at that moment?

I did not.

Uh, but you knew at that time

Yes.

that something had happened. JT had done something.

Yes.

And you knew at that time it was a gun.

Yes.

Okay.

Thank you. That's all the questions I have right now. I appreciate if you'll answer any opposing council to

[snorts] the judges.

Cross examination.

Miss.

Yes.

You're one of the lead first grade teachers at elementary school. Is that correct?

Yes.

And that was the case back in 2023 as well, right?

Yes.

And by lead first grade teachers, that means that you're in the hierarchy of responsibility at the school. You

[clears throat] have some um teachers that work under you or you have some authority. Correct.

Um, I don't know that they're not they don't work under me. Um, I'm the lead of the team. Um, what that means is I attend meetings at the district level and disseminate information to my team that way. And I am part of the lead team at the school, but I'm not in charge of any teachers.

That's right. Um, and a part of your responsibility as a lead teacher also is you can serve as a mentor or fellow teacher.

It has nothing to do with being a lead. I can choose to be a mentor teacher. I just happen to be both.

And you were a mentor to Mrs. Warner.

Yes. The previous year her first year in first grade.

As her mentor, you gave her you kind of showed her the ropes with classroom management. You showed her the ropes with how school works and school operates. And you try to share and knowledge, right? As her mentor.

Yes.

In addition to having the opportunity to mentor folks, sometimes you have some supervisory responsibilities at the school.

I'm not sure what you mean.

Say for example, as lead teacher, isn't it typical or was it typical at the time that you would have a walkie-talkie if you went out to recess? And would you usually go to the lead teacher?

I don't believe it. I believe it was the first teacher that went out to recess would get the walkie-talkie. So that there was one on the playground regardless of who was out there.

Understood. on January 6, 2023, you had a walk and talking.

I I did at the end of the day, like after recess, I honestly don't remember having it prior to the lockdown.

On January 6th. The first time you encountered Mrs. Warner was out on the playground at recess, correct?

No.

At lunch?

At lunch? Yes.

That was in Miss Miller's classroom.

Yes.

And that's when Mr. Warner came in and you referred her to go and speak to the administration, right?

Yes.

After that, next time you encounter Abby was on the playground, correct?

Yes.

When on January 6th when you went to recess that day, you got there a little bit late, right?

So, ordinarily probably be around 12:20, 12:25. You were there around 12:35.

Yes.

Right. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand your testimony today to be when you arrived on the playground, Miss Warner let you know that she suspected or had reason to believe that JT might have a firearm on his person.

I don't specifically remember her saying firearm. I remember in the notes that I wrote down from that day was that she told me she witnessed him take something. I wasn't convinced it was a firearm until I spoke with R.

Okay. Once you arrive on the playground, does she immediately notify you

within a couple of minutes?

Most likely yes.

Okay. Miss West, we're going to show you an exhibit which which has been marked for identification as defense 63H. And I just want this to be displayed to Miss West and council. 63.

Correct. Can you see my display?

Yes.

All right. I'm going to play a portion of this clip and ask if you recognize the individual who appreciate, please. All right. Can you pause it here, please? Okay. Miss West, you recognize this is a fair and accurate representation of you coming onto the playground at recess time. January 6, 2023.

I don't know. I don't know. On [clears throat] the Are you talking about on the sidewalk?

Yes.

I honestly don't know if that's me or not, but it might be.

Sure. You can continue playing Brian.

And that individual who just passed, the person in the green sweater, that was Abby, right?

Yes.

Okay.

Do you recognize yourself in this image now?

Yes.

Okay.

So, that's you, Miss West, standing there on the playground on the day uh before the shooting occurs.

Correct.

Mhm. Okay. Now, you just saw that you passed Mrs. Warner on the way out onto the playground. At that stage, she had not informed you.

I don't believe so. I I can't say for sure.

Right. And you'll see that in this display, it's you're the only adult on the playground at the stage.

Okay.

You would agree?

It appears so.

And there's multiple children out there, right?

Yes.

You're the only adult supervising the children, correct?

Um, I mean, that's what it looks like, but there are um, we have we would like to station ourselves in other places. So

Sure, you can we can continue playing the rest of the clip.

Okay.

But this image here, [clears throat] we're the only adult

can be seen by camera.

Yes.

Brian, if you can continue playing this, Brian, let's do, let's do uh 63 F or excuse me, let's do um 63 I please. So, this is skipping forward. If you could pause here, Brian, please. Miss West, can you see in the upper right quadrant, the upper right corner of this video, there's an individual out there. Do you recognize that?

I mean, it looks like me.

Okay. Um, and Brian, please excuse me. All right. And your honor, I'd ask for permission to post this to the jury. Believe I let that initial.

Is there any objection?

No objection, your honor.

All right. The public.

All right. At this stage, which which has been paused, it looks like you're in the upper right corner of the surveillance image here. Well, Aby's Warner is across from you on the other side.

Correct.

Yes. And then Brian, due to my oversight, if you can go back to the original clip and just show that for the jury, if you can punch that, please. We'll see Miss West come onto the playground. Pass Mrs. Warner. And if you could pause, please. And that's 62H that you just showed. Is that correct?

This is E, your honor. 63H. This is

63H.

63H, excuse me. Um, Miss West, while you're here on the playground here at this stage, you have no knowledge whether or not John Doe possesses or JT possesses a firearm, right? No one's giving you anyone.

I don't recall specifically, but probably not.

Right. And so Miss Warner at that stage had knowledge that JT

Judge, I would object at this point for speculation. He said I'm saying what another person had knowledge of.

That's inappropriate.

That's fine. She can't testify to that but it's been established.

Thank you. Miss West, you testified that at some stage while you were out on the playground, you were trying to you were eventually informed that JC might have a weapon, right?

Yes.

Okay. And you said that you were trying to keep an eye on him, right?

Now, I was informed that he took something from his backpack.

I I can't speak for sure if I was told it was a weapon.

And from that point onward, you were trying to keep an eye on it, right?

Yes.

Okay. And your testimony today was that you were trying to remain vigilant because you suspected that he might have a weapon.

Have something. I was told he took something from his backpack.

When you were on the playground, did you feel in fear for your safety?

I don't honestly I don't know. I was watching 40ish children and keeping an eye on somebody that we were unsure.

And after you received the report from Mrs. warning that JT might possess a firearm and you began watching him at that point. Weren't you concerned for your safety?

Honestly, I don't know. I It is a blur, but again, I don't recall specifically if the word firearm or gun was used at that time. I was convinced that there was a gun after I spoke with R after recess.

Reports indulgence, please.

At some stage when you were out on the playground, Miss West, you had another student who became distracted, right?

Yes. When we were lining up.

Right. And at that stage, you had already received information that JT might have a weapon made.

Again, I can't say for sure that the word weapon or gun was used. My notes that I wrote down that day, I just said that it was reported that he took something. I can't speak speak clearly that I was told it was a weapon.

When you encountered when you returned to the school to deal with that student and you got inside, you encountered Dr. Parker

for about two seconds. We walked past each other,

right?

And you walked past her because you were dealing with the other student who had come disrupted on the plate.

I was following him because he was eloping. He was running from me.

He was running from you.

Yes.

And you contacted Dr. Parker and asked for assistance.

Right.

I don't remember what I said to her, but it was literally in passing. It was not a stop and have a conversation.

And a guidance counselor or

was also in the hallway with Dr.

Intercepted the child.

Yes.

And took him to the main office to be dis

I don't know where he took him.

When you encountered Dr. Parker in that hallway, you didn't disclose any of the information you had received.

I did not because I was not convinced until after that when I spoke with R.

So your suspicion that JT might have an actual weapon of some kind didn't materialize until you spoke to RR. Is that correct?

I was convinced when I spoke with R.

But up to that point, you were a suspicion.

Yes. And I didn't I was focused on my student in that moment. And I don't know why I didn't say anything when I walked past Dr. Parker in the hallway.

And you even though when when Miss Warner first reported that the student might have has an item on this person, it was possible that he might have a weapon, right?

It was possible. Yes.

And you're familiar with the protocols that were

to report to an administrator.

But also, if is it your understanding that if someone reports that there's a suspected weapon, you should presume as legitimate?

I'm not sure what you mean.

So, you're not familiar with the protocols?

Oh, I I'm not sure what you're asking. Can you ask that again?

I'm asking that you had received information that the student might have something that may or may not be a weapon.

Correct?

Yes.

Okay. And despite that knowledge, you remained on the playground with multiple students.

Yes.

You allowed that child to continue playing.

You allowed the child to continue playing with other children.

What should I have done?

Detain them.

You can't. How am I supposed to detain him?

Isolate them. Evacuate the area.

An alert walkie-talkie to contact people.

That's not that's not something you would put over a walkie-talkie.

You wouldn't want to share with the school that there's a suspected weapon.

You wouldn't alert the entire school over walkie-talkie that there's a suspected weapon,

but you would allow the child in possession of a suspected weapon to commingle with other children.

It was my understanding that Dr. Barker had been made aware by another teacher

while we were at recess.

And so you took no measures to isolate this child, to detain him.

I did not try to isolate him. No.

Rather you prioritize disciplining another student.

It wasn't disciplining. He was eloping and I was keeping him away from harming somebody. He was putting his hands on another student.

Right. You had you perceived that as an imminent threat to that student.

That's why you followed that student.

Correct.

Because I witnessed it.

Yes.

And you took action on it, right?

Well, I opened the door and he ran.

And you left the playground when you did that.

I did.

And JT remained on the playground when you left.

Yes.

With the other students?

Yes.

With a potential firearm

that Dr. Parker had already been made aware of.

You have received no confirmation that she received any information to that effect.

The confirmation came from my co-workers telling me that she had been made aware.

I spoke with who remained on the playground with you.

One of them, yes, but one of them was not on the playground.

Miss West, you've testified that when you left JT on the playground,

you didn't know whether or not he had a weapon.

I was not confirmed.

Now, but you were testing what you did was that you didn't even think that he had a firearm.

No, I said it was suspected. I didn't know what it was. Once I questioned R and he told me that he had seen a weapon and I saw how scared R was, how visibly shaken he was by the threats of harm from JT. That's what convinced me that it was a weapon.

And let's fast forward a little bit. Once you spoke to R about the reports or information he received about JT, that's when you decided to contact the administration, right?

Yes.

But you didn't go there directly.

I couldn't go there. I had a classroom full of children.

But you left them on the playground before last time. They were getting in line with another teacher.

You only leave children on the playground when you suspect one of them has a firearm.

That's never happened before or since.

It happened on January 6th.

You are correct.

But there was no protocol in place for that other than report to your administrator.

There was no protocol in place.

I mean, I it was report to your administrator and it had been reported. So, meanwhile, while you had information that a child might have a weapon, you've remained you allowed children to remain on playground unsupervised.

Judge, objection. This question has been asked and answered numerous times at this point. Her answer is not going to change.

I can move on from this.

Objection. Sustain.

Miss Weiss, you testified that when you arrived on the playground, you weren't told specifically whether or not JT had a gun.

That's what my notes I wrote down notes that night, and that's what my notes say.

You woke testifying at deposition matter?

Yes.

Being placed under oath?

Yes.

You told to tell the truth?

Yes.

Brian, if you could pull up page 73 of the August 13, 2025 deposition.

Remind what was the page number again? Just write it. It's

page 73. I'm sorry. It's page 73. If you go and direct your attention to line, um, 19, excuse me, lines 17 to 19, you recall you were questioned. So, at that moment, you're out on the playground. You think Don Doe has a gun? And you respond, I'm told that he does. Yes.

Yes.

So, your testimony on under oath at the deposition perceiving this trial, was that M. Warner had reported to you that this child had a firearm?

That's what I said then. Yes.

You were unequivocal at that stage.

I don't recall. It was an emotional time during the deposition.

Imagine it would be an emotional time on a playground where the teacher reports that a child has a gun, right?

It would. Sure.

Yet, you left him on the playground thinking that he had a gun and you didn't do anything.

Judge, again, I'm objecting. It's been asked and answered a few times. Interesting.

Thank you. I have no further questions as well. Before you sit down, um, did you show a second video clip or was that clip that you show

multiple clips? I think there was

63 was the second one.

That's correct.

That's Brian, by the way, for the transcript.

All right. Uh, redirect.

Just one question, your honor. Can you tell the jury who was the teacher that you understood was telling Dr. Parker while you were at recess that they thought JT had a gun on the playground?

Amy Kovac, our reading specialist.

I guess second question. Who did you think she was telling that to?

Dr. Parker.

Thank you.

Any followup based on that?

One question. The reason you thought Miss Kovac reported to Dr. Parker was because you had spoken to Miss Kovac.

Correct.

I don't believe I've spoken to her. I believe I was told.

So, and you weren't present for that conversation?

No.

You got no direct knowledge of whether or not she actually communicated with fire department?

I guess not. No.

All right. Um, is she excused or do you want her resequested?

Your honor, I'm fine releasing her from our subpoena. I know she has been subpoenaed by defense as well, judge.

Okay. And you reserve the right to uh call her.

Just we reserve the right to call.

Okay.

All right. But [clears throat] she can go for today.

Yes, your honor.

All right. All right. Uh, Miss West, um, I'm going to release you from your testimony, uh, from being in court today, but you are still, uh, considered a witness in the case, or you're not allowed to discuss this testimony or anything you've heard or testified to about this case with anyone. All right. Um, and you have her number to return.

Uh, your honor, I did want to also ask that you can instruct the witnesses who are still in not to watch any coverage on TV.

Correct.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And then obviously no watching of any reporting of any of this until you if and when you are called back or released for good from this case. Okay.

All right. [clears throat] Thank you as well. You're free to leave.

All right. Next witness back. Stand right there. Thank you very much.

Do you the testimony you're about to give to the truth, the whole truth?

I do.

Come on. proceed.

Thank you, your honor. Good afternoon, Miss Kovac. Can you state your name for the jury, please, and spell it for the court reporter?

Sure. Amy Kovac. A M Y K O V A C.

Thank you. And Miss Kobach, can you tell the jury how are you currently employed?

With Newport News Public Schools as a reading specialist.

How long have you been employed in that fashion?

12 years now as a reading specialist, but with Newport News for 23 years and then 10 years before in King and Queen. So, 33 years

as a teacher.

As a teacher.

Uh, and you're familiar with Abby Zorner, correct?

Correct.

Okay. How do you know her?

From Richneck Elementary.

Did you two work together?

Yes.

And Amy, I want to turn your attention to January 6th, 2023. Do you recall that date?

Yes, I do.

And uh, how were you working on that day?

So that day we had come back from Christmas break and the state of Virginia has a growth assessment test and right before Christmas we had taken the winter growth test winter growth state test and I was the proctor. We were making up students that hadn't taken it before Christmas. So that's what I was doing on that day.

Uh were you the only proctor that day for the testing?

I was the only proctor but Laura Harris was the examiner. So we were together.

And do you recall how many students were testing that day?

So there were three groups. The first group was like um some uh special ed students and fifth graders together. The second group was fourth and then the last group was third and there was about no more than 10 per session.

Okay.

And on that day were you working closely with Dr. Parker while you were doing the testing?

Yes.

And can you tell the jury what was what did that look like? What was the responsibilities?

So [clears throat] the responsibilities and again I've been in a couple of other schools since that day. Um, usually the AP did the testing, um, which would have been like preparing the testing tickets, making sure they had accommodations if they had like, you know, audio and needed headphones. Um, having a testing box for each session, which had pencils, scrap paper, things like that. And then she would have had to start the

testing session from her computer. So, it really probably should have all been prepared ahead of time for the most part because when Laura and myself would come in and sign off, the folders were ready. So, you were getting the folders that had already been prepared by Dr. Parker for testing.

>> Yes.

>> Okay. Um, and just so the jury knows, what does AP stand for?

>> Assistant principal.

>> Thank you. Um, and was there a time that you encountered JT that day on January 6th? I'm referring to the student as JT for purposes of today.

>> Okay. Yes. Um, as he was coming out of lunch, I was coming out of Dr. Parker's office because we had finished our second session and I was heading down to my office to get ready to have lunch before we had to test again at 1:00. And so as I was coming out, um Abby and her class were coming from the cafeteria. I had stopped at the cross section where the bathroom is and he saw me and he ran up to me to give me a hug. I had already been aware that he was having a difficult time at lunch.

>> And let me pause you right there. Can you tell me how were you aware that he had had a difficult time at lunch?

>> Uh Miss Warner had come into Dr. Parker's office and um she spoke to her and told her that he had already threatened a kindergartener during lunch and also was um I guess being aggressive with the security officer and I was in the office when we were turning back the tickets and seeing what time we had to test next.

>> So just so the jury understands who was in the office at that time when Abby came into the office?

>> Dr. Parker, myself and Laura Harris, the special ed teacher.

>> Okay. Uh can you describe for the jury the interactions between Dr. Parker and Abby on that day that morning.

>> So that morning while we were in there at that time um Abby came in and was standing there like waiting to be recognized. She never was recognized by Dr. Parker. She didn't look up. She didn't look at her.

>> When you say she, who are you referring to?

>> Dr. Parker.

>> Thank you.

>> Um didn't look at her. Abby did say, you know, about the threatening the kindergartenner and already, you know, he was aggressive kind of with the security officer and then she left because she had to pick up her kids and it was like 11:45.

>> Uh can you tell the jury state whether or not you know if Dr. Parker heard Abby Misser that day.

>> Yeah, she heard. She told me I could tell her that she could call his mom at any time to come pick him up.

>> So if he was continuing to act out violent, I guess in a What did you take that as?

>> Well, I took it as like if she continued to have problems, then Abby could call the mom.

>> But she didn't tell Abby that. And you're referring to Miss Warner. Correct.

>> Correct.

>> And she didn't tell her that.

>> She did not. I didn't.

>> So when you're going to tell Abby, you encountered JT.

>> Correct. He came up to me. He saw me. He was happy. He saw me. Ran up to me. He gave me a hug. I already knew that he was being, you know, aggressive and, you know, wild. Um, and so I had told him, I'm like, "Hey, buddy, you know, are you having a good day?" And he was like, "Yeah." So, okay. Well, you know, make good choices, make Mrs. Kovc proud.

>> And then, uh, where do you go from there?

>> So, from there, the rest of the class was walking down. So, I just waited. And then I'm heading to my office. So, Abby's room is the last room on the left. There were double doors. And then my office was straight ahead in the second grade wing. So, I was heading down there to have lunch before I had to test again. And at that time, two little girls came out of Abby's room to the doorway while I was still in the hall and told me that JT had a gun in his bag.

>> So, what did you do at that point?

>> So, at that point, I was like, "Oh." I walked in and I went straight to him. I was focused straight on him. Abby was kind of coming in and getting the kids settled for, you know, lunch and getting ready for the next activity. I went straight to him. His he was in a desk by the windows on the left side of the room and he was like baldled up in his ch in his seat and that is not normal for him. So I pulled up a chair next to him and I was like, "Hey buddy, you know, what's going on. The girls tell me you have a gun in the bag." And he said, I said, "Can I have that bag?" Because typically he's throwing that bag. I carry that bag. You know, we're in and out. His mom carries the bag sometimes. So it was sitting right next to him on this desk and he's baldled up. I said, "Okay, can I have the bag?" And he said, "No, no one is getting that bag." That was out of character for him. And he was sitting right by it. So then he sat there quiet for a little bit and he started talking. I was quiet. He started talking. He said, um, "People are picking on my friend R. I don't know if I can say his name, but anyways,"

>> don't say any minor names. Thank you.

>> Um, so he was picking on my friend R. And I was thinking to myself, "Oo, you have a little friend already." But he said, "People are picking on him." So I told him, I said, "Well, let me tell you how school works. If R has a problem, he can tell his teacher. He could come tell me. He could go tell anybody. If you have a problem, you can tell me. You can tell Miss Warner. You could tell an adult." And so I said, you know, we have to worry about ourselves. And so he's sitting there and sitting there and I said again, do you have a gun in that bag? And he said, no one is getting that bag. And I was like, okay. Then Miss Warner called them to the carpet. He came. I came and sat right next to him. Again, the board is in the front. He sat on the corner here. I sat next to him and he was facing that bag. And so we did the lesson and he was still sitting there. And then he started telling me, he said, "I got new shoes on." Red and black Nikes. And I was like, "Oh, I like those." He said, "But I have to go change my shoes at lunchtime because these are new." And I was like, "Oh, okay." And I was like, "Okay." So, we did the lesson. U Miss Warner got up and modeled what they were doing and she told him what they need. He said, "I need scissors and a pencil." I was like, "Oh, buddy, you're not getting any scissors." Cuz heaven knows what he would do with those. I said, "The lesson did not require any, you know, scissors." So then I went to Miss Warner.

>> Yes. And Miss Kovac, let me just ask as you're describing this. So, at some point you do speak to Miss Zorner,

>> right? Right. Then afterwards,

>> do you tell her that you're going to go see Dr. Parker?

>> Yes. Well, I told her what I told her first was I am I asked her when recess was. She said in 10 minutes. I said, "Okay, I'm going to go and uh I'll come back in 10 minutes to check the bag." But at that point, as soon as I left, I went and reported to Dr. Parker that the girls had reported to me that there was a possible gun. I went and sat with him. I talked with him. I told her what I had done.

>> And let me pause you before we get into exactly what you told Dr. Parker. So before you go down to Dr. Parker's office, do you tell Abby that there's a concern about something at this point?

>> Yes.

>> And you advise her that you're going to find Dr. Parker and talk to her?

>> Yes.

>> Okay. And then do you tell Abby to keep an eye on him until you came back?

>> Yes. Well, yes.

>> Okay. So now walk the jury through. At this point, you're going back down to Dr. Parker's office. Is she still sitting at her desk?

>> Yes.

>> Okay. Uh what do you tell her at that time?

>> So at that time I go up to her and I tell her that the girls reported about a gun that I was in there. He would not give me the bag. He was not acting normal. Um and so I told her that when Abby's going out to recess in like 10 minutes that I would be back to check the bag.

>> And so then Miss Kovac, did Dr. Parker respond to you or give you any direction?

>> She just kind of nodded and acknowledged that that was what I was going to do.

>> Okay. So you let her know I'm going to check the backpack and she didn't. She nodded her head.

>> Yes.

>> Okay. She was aware of

>> Do you then go directly back to check the backpack?

>> No, cuz I was now waiting, you know, for them to go to recess. So, I left her office, was heading back down to my office. When I got to my office, I looked at my cell phone. Abby had texted me and said that they were now outside, but he had gone to his book bag and took something out of his book bag and put it in his jacket pocket. So,

>> did Abby tell you what she thought that was, or did you What did you think that that meant?

>> To me, it felt like it it was whatever he had, like the gun.

>> So, what do you do once you hear that response?

>> So, after I hear that, I go right to Abby's room and I'm checking that bag because again, he was acting really weird, you know, and I checked that bag and I knew it wouldn't be there cuz Abby pretty much told me something he put into his jacket pocket. So, I checked the bag, there was a math book in there, there was a homework book in there, there was a little Spider-Man puzzle that we had made in small group um that was there. He had a gold like little coin tokens, you know, from Leav or something. And then in the front pocket he had a calculator. Um he had not been getting math in his modified schedule and he always wanted me when we did reading um to do something. I taught him how to write hello on the calculator upside down.

>> So at that time you've searched the bag yourself?

>> Yes.

>> Do you then go back to Dr. Parker's office?

>> Yes, I do.

>> And is Dr. Parker still sitting at her desk in her office at that time?

>> Yes, she is.

>> Is there anyone else in her office?

>> Not that I recall.

>> Okay. What do you tell Dr. Parker at this time?

>> So again, I tell her that I went and checked the bag. I told her just what I said to you all what was in the bag. And then I also tell her that Abby texted me that they were out at recess, that he took something from the bag and he put it in his pocket.

>> Did you tell her you thought it could be a gun?

>> I I mean, I told her that I reported that it was a gun. I mean, the whole time I assumed she thought it was a gun because that's what the girls reported and I went and reported to her.

>> And what did she say in response to you when you said he put it in his pocket?

>> Um, she did say that, you know, well, he has little pockets and I said he put it in his jacket pocket and I was kind of mad, you know, and I I walked away cuz I have I have testing. So, I went down and went outside to check on Abby and to check on JT to see if he would come to me. At that time, when I get out there, talked to Abby, she said she overheard R or you heard Jay, she overheard R say, "Keep your hands in your pocket. Don't take your hands out of your pocket."

>> So, you then go back in and tell Dr. Parker about that what you saw the encounter on the playground.

>> So yes, I told her that. I also

>> Let me ask you, Miss Kovak, so you tell her that at that point, do you stress to her that you feel like there's something in his pocket that he has a jacket on?

>> Yes, I do. I feel like he did something. He took something. There's something.

>> And you weren't wavering in your statement to her that you thought he had something that was concerning that could be a gun.

>> Correct.

>> And when you go to testing, do you let Dr. Parker know, I'm going to testing? And Dr. Parker says, "Okay." And does she respond to you? Do you do you feel like at that point she's going to deal with the situation while you go to testing?

>> Well, I felt like the whole time she would have dealt with the situation. She was sitting right there by her phone.

>> So, did you think she was dealing with this situation?

>> I did until nothing happened when at the end of the day.

>> Yeah. Well, nothing had happened up to that point. You know what I mean? And then I did have state testing. So, she is my boss, you know, I went and did state testing.

>> And once she went to go do state testing, is she relieved from her duties at that point with state testing?

>> Um, for the most part, unless unless like a computer won't start or something, she'll reset it on her computer, but again, it's like a push of a button and then when we bring the testing papers back, um, we usually sign them off and then she'll do whatever she needs to do to get them to say they were done. I'm not really sure of that part. Um, but we never made it back that day for the third testing to turn in the papers.

>> So, what did you understand the protocol was on that day when you

>> report to administrator?

>> And who did you report it to?

>> Dr. Ebony Parker. several times.

>> And when you went to go do testing, you left that information with Dr. Barker. Correct.

>> Correct. That was all before testing.

>> Okay. Of the last group, we had already done two sets before lunch.

>> And when you're in testing at that time, you don't see Dr. Parker again or Miss Warner, do you?

>> No.

>> Okay. Not until the end of the day.

>> Yes. Not until 2 o'clock.

>> Okay. Um, did you feel any assurances after you searched JT's backpack?

>> No. Again, he was acting so weird.

>> And did you tell Dr. Parker that?

>> Yes. Like he was curled up. He he likes to talk. So, usually, you know, he'd be talking or running around. That bag, we carried it around, you know. Um his mom usually brings it in that week. She was bringing it in, getting settled. That was a week without, you know, mom attending school or dad attending school with him. Um I checked in on him. I checked in on Abby several times the days that he was there.

>> So, when you're talking to her,

>> do you feel that you explained to Dr. Parker that you feel this is a serious threat?

>> I thought so.

>> Okay. You were very clear that you kept going back to look and do things.

>> Yes.

>> And when you went to go testing, you told Dr. Parker at that point, he's still at recess.

>> Yes.

>> And he has a jacket on.

>> Yes. And then I went outside to check to see if he would come to me. And again, I told Abby, you can call the mom at any time.

>> Um, but at that time, he's not

>> acting out or misbehaving.

>> No, he was behind the rock wall. I thought he would come to me.

>> Okay.

>> So, he had his hands in the

>> end of the day. And do you hear any Do you hear a gunshot or sound of something that sounds like a gun?

>> Yes. So, Laura and I had finished testing. We had been sending the kids down the hall as they finished. At [snorts] 2:00, both of us were walking down the hall, had left her room, which is in the second grade wing across from mine. So, we came through the there's like double doors and at that point I heard that gunshot and instinctively I walked into that room. As I come in the door, Abby's on this side. I see blood on her leg. So, I knew she was hit. I wasn't really sure. On this side, I see Jen open the door. The kids screaming and running out. I felt like I had a bubble of God around me and I walked straight to him. He was standing there with his legs kind of spread open, arms crossed and cocky. And when I got to him, I didn't say anything. I took his wrist because I knew he shot with his left hand. I walked to Abby's desk where her phone was. I put him in between my leg, put my arms around him. I picked up the phone to call 911. Remembered you have to hit 911 to get out. I asked if this was 911. They said yes. I said, "This is Richneck. A teacher's been shot. I have the shooter. Send help." So Amy, I'm I'd like to pull up read uh what's been marked plaintiff exhibit 4, please.

>> And can you check for the jury this time, please?

>> Pardon me. It's my

>> Thank you. And this is what's been marked plaintiff's exhibit 4. We will be um asking to have that submitted to your honor if we can play that, please. And Amy, can you see it in front of you?

>> Oh, yeah.

>> So, Amy, who are you in this photo?

>> I'm on the left side in like the red and black with the short hair.

>> Thank you. And you're walking under a sign that says leaving second grade. What hallway is that?

>> Second grade hallway.

>> Is that the first grade hallway you're walking into?

>> Yes. Um, if we can continue playing that and if the jury can pay attention, there is a boy coming out of a classroom. Do you know whose classroom that is, Miss Kovac? Is that Miss West's classroom?

>> Yes.

>> Okay. And right now, what did you hear?

>> At that point, when I turned around, that's when we heard the gunshot.

>> Okay. Can you find it? And who is that that just came out of the classroom if you know walking in the opposite direction? Not across the hall but down the hall.

>> I think

>> is that Miss Warner?

>> Um did she I I'm sorry I didn't see it but yes she left as soon as the kids the kids were on my right side and she was on my left and I was facing him as I go into the door.

>> Okay. You can continue playing that. And I think the other one running out is Laura cuz she originally had gone into the empty room next door, but when I walked in, I knew Laura would have Abby. Like I I I knew she was hurt and I knew Laura was right there with me. Thank you.

>> Dr. Parker was going to address the situation. Correct.

>> Correct.

>> Okay. Um that's all the questions I have at this time. Thank you.

>> Thank you.

>> All right. Any cross-examination? Thank you. All right. Afternoon, sir.

>> Good afternoon. Mr. Hogan, can you come to the lecture, please? Sure. I appreciate it. Thank you. Let's go back. You've been working at Richneck for quite some time at the time that this incident happened, correct?

>> Um, yes, that was my fifth year.

>> And at Richneck, you had several roles. You wore several different hats there when you were working there.

>> So, my role was as reading specialist, which is a support person for the teachers to really get the best practices. If I had other roles, um, part of my job description is to do other duties as deemed by the administration.

>> One of those roles included being third in the chain of command in the crisis meeting. Correct.

>> Correct. I just recently saw that my name was all over that teachers do not get that crisis plan. Usually there's a PD done by the administration at the beginning of the school year

>> and as the third in command at an elementary school that would mean that the superiors above you would be the assistant principal and the principal. Correct.

>> Correct.

>> So in their absence that would mean that you would take charge and responsibility for the operations of the school

>> with this administration and with the administration the year before. The year before, if I was third in command, they always left the number that if there was an emergency or a concern to call the principal at Macintosh, which is right across the street at Jefferson and Rich. Let's go back. I want to focus on the day of the incident. You gave you a hug, right?

>> Yes. And then I believe in lunch.

>> The beginning of lunch or

>> No, at the end. At the end of lunch.

>> So, right at the end of lunch, he comes up, gives you a big hug.

>> Yes.

>> But at that stage, you have received information from M. Warner

>> that he was in the cafeteria. Yes.

>> Right. Well, prior to that, you were present when Miss Warner came and spoke to Dr. Parker.

>> Correct.

>> And at that stage, Miss Warner spoke to Dr. Parker. Let me know that he was misbehaving.

>> Correct.

>> And her testimony was that she didn't even look up.

>> Correct.

>> There was no response. Whats?

>> No response. I thought it was rude.

>> You thought that it was rude.

>> You agree that Laura Harrow was present, right?

>> Correct.

>> She also witnessed what happened, right?

>> Correct. do you recall? Let's back up.

>> Okay.

>> Just to understand your testimony today, Miss Kobach.

>> Today, my testimony today,

>> just to be clear, yes.

>> You were testifying that Dr. Parker did not respond whatsoever when

>> she did not look up from her computer and say anything. She told me that I could tell Abby to call his mom and she mom could come pick him up at any time.

>> And you recall that on this day, this is when annual testing was going on.

>> Correct. It was makeup testing. So it was not the whole school. It was not all the small groups. It was just three small groups to do makeup.

>> At the time, Miss M. Warner came into Dr. Parker's office. Doc Dr. Parker was on her computer. Correct.

>> She was sitting at it. Yes.

>> Right. The computer faces the door. So the screen faces the door.

>> Does it face the door? No, the door was here. She was here and the computer's here. So she was not facing who would come through the front door.

>> I came through the office door.

>> But she would not be facing you when you entered that.

>> I sat like she was right here.

>> Understood.

>> Mrs. Warner when she came in that encounter was very brief.

>> She didn't she didn't linger. She didn't have a conversation. She was just in and out.

>> Correct. Because Dr. Parker didn't look up at her, didn't acknowledge her, and she had to go get her kids. It was time that lunch had ended. She came in and reported that, you know, he was threatening a kindergartner and then being like hry with the security officer.

>> At that at that stage, she didn't report any threat of a firearm at that stage. A threat, a firearm, weapon, ammunition, nothing.

>> I'm not at that moment. No, we did not know about a firearm or anything at that moment.

>> Right. The first time you learned about that was from two little girls who came out of your classroom.

>> Correct. They knew I was one of his teachers on the modified schedule. And when you received that information, you interviewed those children. You spoke with them.

>> I spoke with them. I I was like, "Okay." And I walked into that room.

>> Did you do any follow-up investigation with the children?

>> Not with the children. I went right to him to do some kind see what he could say and do and try and get that bag.

>> And so you had information that from these two children,

>> correct?

>> That you did not speak to.

>> I did speak to. They spoke to me and I You're correct. You didn't follow up to confirm the basis of their

>> I tried to follow up by getting that bag to see what was in it and talk to him and see what was going on.

>> So your focus was to go after that bag, right?

>> Yes. And him and see what was going on.

>> Right. You had just been warned that this small child might have a firearm in an elementary school classroom. So you took immediate action, right?

>> Correct.

>> You went directly to him.

>> Correct.

>> Right. And you sit down next to him, right?

>> Correct.

>> And you're within at least arms reach, right?

>> Yes. But

>> you sat right beside him.

>> I sat He was here and I sat next to him. He was baldled up. I wanted him to talk to see exactly what was going on.

>> And the backpack, he wasn't holding it.

>> No, it was on the side, but he had his body close to it.

>> So, the backpack was next to him.

>> Correct.

>> Right. And you were, you were next to him as well.

>> Correct.

>> And you're at the third command of that school, correct?

>> Not really. Only when they're absent. I am not an administrator. I am a teacher with a specialized degree and certification in reading.

>> You're also not a six-year-old child.

>> No, not at this time.

>> No. And so, when you needed to, you've confiscated contraband from children before?

>> No.

>> Never. Never. Never as a teacher have you ever confiscated any material from a student?

>> I mean papers, homework, something out of their book bag like money as a parent send it in picture day.

>> Don't elementary school teachers aren't they in and out of school bags all the time?

>> Correct.

>> Right. That's pretty routine.

>> Again, we did not knowing JT, his behavior, his actions and the other children being in the room, I was not going to cause hysteria. I did what I did. I sat there trying to help him based on that relationship and then I went and reported. And I can't help what somebody else did not do. And before you did that,

>> correct?

>> Go ahead.

>> When you were sitting next to that child.

>> Correct.

>> You could have just reached on over and

>> I could have, but I can't turn back and do anything that I did not do back then.

>> Right. [clears throat]

>> In retrospect.

>> In retrospect. In hindsight, you're not able to go back.

>> Correct.

>> But you could have easily, especially

>> I don't know. I mean, I was trying to protect the children.

>> You were concerned about being overpowered by a six-year-old child.

>> Correct. If you knew him, you would be, too.

>> Were you concerned about being out? Who? You're indicating that he was a threat.

>> Did you fear?

>> Not me. I did not fear him. We had a good relationship, him and I, but he is very wild. Administration used to let him talk on the balky and run around in the office.

>> Didn't he hug you all the time and smile on you

>> sometimes? Depending on his mood and what set him off on the school bus with any child.

>> Weren't you also closely involved in his students selection plan, student success plan?

>> I was

>> the facilitator.

>> So the year before, Dr. Parker did not do her job. That was not the question. That was her job. I took over that year.

>> Miss Kovac, I've asked you a specific question.

>> Your honor, I object to the student success plan. That's beyond scope of direct.

>> All right. Are you intending to get into that?

>> I think that she's I'm exploring her relationship with the student and so I don't intend to go into the details of that plan, but it will still establish and give context for the jury to understand what's going on.

>> Right. I've allowed you to ask her whether or not she was involved with that and she said yes. So, I'll let you not let you dig into any more than that.

>> Understood. stuff allow that

>> and I would just on the record also object to the relevancy of the January 6 on this but I understand

>> and I think he's he's going for the link up with the relationship and I'll allow you to explore the relationship but that's it.

>> Thank you honor.

>> All right. when as whether in that role as a reading specialist otherwise at that school you had experience dealing with children and having to discipline them

>> as a regular classroom teacher and then um you know if I'm in the classroom part of my job is co-eing or modeling

>> and when you're doing that you also have to discipline teach students occasionally

>> correct

>> become disruptive if they don't listen to you

>> correct so usually I would follow the teacher's um you know behavior plan and the consequences because the teacher is the one in charge sometimes I would pull the kids and just talk to them see what's going on. A lot of times, you know, there's different things that happen. They might be mad at another person because they looked at them or they come from home upset. So, yes, I've done discipline based on the teacher's plan and when I was a teacher, based on my plan.

>> And throughout all that experience, you've searched numerous backpacks.

>> No, not really. Only if the parent had pretty much said there's money in there, there's a library book in there, their homework is in there, it hasn't been turned in. If you ever suspected that they had something that didn't belong them, you would just tell them, "Go get me that book bag." You get that book bag, right?

>> It depends on what the situation was. In this situation, I did not feel comfortable because I did not know what his reaction would be.

>> Well, when you were speaking to JT, isn't it true you thought, if anything, he had a toy gun?

>> That was my own personal thoughts and I told that to HR. I never told it to Parker because I would not put it past him. But just like any public school, we take children how they come and we do not know what their home life is like. You said you wouldn't put it past him. You mean JT?

>> JT, correct?

>> You think that he set you up?

>> I feel looking back he did set me up or somebody else.

>> I'm going to object to the relevancy of that question.

>> All right. What's the relevance of that?

>> The relevancy is I think it's conditionally relevant. Judge, and I can lay the foundation for this. I can

>> All right. I'll withhold a ruling if you can lay some foundation.

>> Specifically, Miss Kovac, you've testified that when you were speaking to JT and you were in Miss Warner's classroom,

>> correct? You had at that stage sitting next to that child, received the report that he might have a potentially deadly weapon on him. Right.

>> Correct.

>> And with that knowledge, your next step was to ask for his permission to search his backpack. Right.

>> But if he had a gun in there, I wasn't going to take take that out.

>> You said no. You would leave it there and continue to teach a lesson in front of the students.

>> I sat with them in there with him away from his book bag.

>> And then you go and you speak to Abby, Mr.

>> I go to Yes. to ask for when recess is. Yes. And then I leave there and I go and report. But before that happens, JT tells you, "Miss Kovac,

>> yeah,

>> I have some shoes that I need for recess."

>> Correct.

>> I need to get into that backpack later.

>> He tells you that.

>> Correct.

>> At that stage, and you have that knowledge, you know that he might have a deadly weapon in that backpack. He has told you he intends to access that backpack. And you leave the room. Correct.

>> I leave the room, but I did not think about him having that shoes in the bag. That was in retrospect after all of this has happened. You didn't think about that because you were tricked.

>> I was focused on him.

>> He set you up.

>> That's how I felt in retrospect. A six-year-old, I think we've already gone over this in the past. Can't have the intent here. We're talking about setting her up. It's out of

>> You're honest.

>> No, it was her words. So, I'm going to overrule the objection.

>> It was the attorney's words to her judgment

>> and she agreed. So, go ahead.

>> You're telling the jury that you were tricked by a six-year-old child?

>> I He did not trick me. I thought of that on my own several weeks after all by

>> yourself. You very good.

>> Correct. In retrospect and his mother also because she carries the book bag in.

>> So I don't know what he was thinking.

>> And after you leave Mrs. Warner in the classroom. You left to go to testing, right?

>> No, I left to go to Dr. Parker.

>> That's correct. That's correct. You went and spoke to Dr. Parker. You let her know some of the information that you you'd received and then later you went and go and you speak to Ms. Warner. Right.

>> So, I went back to my office and I got my phone [clears throat] and Miss Warner had texted me

>> to say that they were now outside. And again, I left my office. I went to Miss Warner's room. I checked his bag, but she had texted me that he took something from his bag and put it in his pocket. After I checked the bag, I went back to Dr. Parker.

>> I want to I want to focus on the text messages. You said that at some stage Miss Warner texted you and let you know that before recess JT might have removed something from the backpack.

>> No, she texted me while they went were heading out right after and by the time I got that text that's when I went I texted her and said I'm going to check the bag and then I went back to Dr. Parker

>> and later you receive a text from Miss Warner while she's on the playground. Right.

>> That was the text I'm talking about.

>> Right. And it indicates I think I saw JT remove something from that backpack. Right.

>> Correct. the backpack that you left in the classroom, right? The classroom full of children, right?

>> I left it there. Correct.

>> You did leave it there as well as Mrs. Warner with those children as well.

>> And again, those were the actions that we did that day. And I can't go back and change anything.

>> But if you could.

>> No, it's not a but if I could.

>> Objection, your honor, about what she could do.

>> I'm going to sustain that. That's

>> that's fine,

>> Judge. Your honor, I think the comment from council.

>> All right. And I'm going to uh I I'll weal about the limiting instruction. I'm going to give the jury after this witness. M. Kobach, I'm going to show you an exhibit that's been marked as defense exhibit 85. Brian, can you pull it up? Don't publish to the jury yet, please. Just go back. Please read those silently to yourself. The first page there, do you recognize these documents,

>> the text message?

>> Yes. If you look at the top one, you see there it says Amy Kovac.

>> Yes.

>> And the recipient there, that number displays Miss Abby's Warner. Correct.

>> Correct. Do you recognize these are the text messages that you exchanged on January 6th around the time that she was out on the playground? Right.

>> There's only one line, but yes.

>> Well, there's two pages. There's page two and page three as well. Do you see that?

>> They're black.

>> We can fix that for you. J. I think we might have technical issues here, but I can move on to a separate related exhibit.

>> M. Kobach, you said that at some stage you went out you went out onto the playground.

>> Correct.

>> Right. And you actually spoke to Miss Warner.

>> Correct.

>> Right. Um, I'm going to show you what's been marked for identification as defense exhibit 64A. Please don't publish to the jury yet. Miss Kobach, let me know when you see it on the display there.

>> Yes. All

>> right. And Miss Kopc, do you see do you recognize this? Is this the playground outside of Richmond Elementary School?

>> Yes. This is primary one.

>> Uh Brian, could you start the clip so that you can see what happens? I'm just going to ask you to pay attention to who comes out from the right corner. If you can pause, Brian, do you recognize the students that came out onto the playground at that stage?

>> You can't see their faces.

>> See,

>> they're first graders.

>> Sure.

>> Brian, if you could continue playing the clip, please. All right. That individual who just came out, that's Miss Warner, correct?

>> Correct.

>> Okay. And this would have been when her class just went out to recess, right?

>> Correct.

>> Okay. And that would have been probably around 12:20 was the testimony today.

>> Correct.

>> I'm I'm not really sure what time it was. I mean, it was 2 and a half years ago.

>> At this moment, if you could pause, Brian, Miss Warner is the only adult there on the playground, right?

>> Correct. With her class. And this is after you had been in her classroom. Correct.

>> Yes.

>> And this was after you had let her know that you had information that this child might have a firearm in his backpack. Correct.

>> Correct.

>> While she's on the playground, she ends up texting you and that's when she indicates that she saw him before recess remove something from the backpack and potentially put it on.

>> I mean, I guess she was on the playground when she texted me. My phone was in the office. So, when I returned to the office after being in Dr. Parker's office reporting about what was in the book bag and what was not. Then I went back to my office. So I did not look at the time as to when she reported, but it had been after you know they got cuz she reported he took something from his backpack.

>> Understood. Just a moment. full version.

>> Sure.

>> M Kodak, M. Kovac, please turn your attention to the screen. We'll continue playing.

>> Honor, do I have permission to publish to the jury?

>> We don't have the preview on our screen, so we I don't know what he's asking to publish.

>> I don't either.

>> You didn't see the video he was playing? Oh, if that's what we're talking about, then I have no we have no

>> I think there's an issue on the end.

>> A

>> judge, can I take with the court's permission? Could I take a brief recess? I think I'm having issues with the exhibits.

>> Any objection to that?

>> No objection.

>> All right, we'll take a short break, folks. Um, let's uh say 10 minutes and hopefully we'll be back uh hearing testimony at 3:00. Okay, so we'll take 10 minutes now hopefully. All right. Court being a brief recess and

>> let's go back.

>> Yeah.

>> Where we left off, we were still on the playground.

>> Yes.

>> January 6, 2023, you had received, you had spoken to Miss Warner. She was now on the playground. You were in communication with her through text message. And at some stage, you went out onto the playground to speak to her.

>> Correct.

>> Let's go back. I'm going to show you what's been marked for identification is exhibit 64F in the defense. You can see it on your display. Which way? 64F. Mr. Back, you recognize that display playground for wood check?

>> Yes. Your

>> honor, permission to publish to the jury.

>> Any objection?

>> No objection.

>> Without objection, 64 admitted and published.

>> Mr. B, we're just going to play this portion and ask some questions about it. So if you could pause now, Brian, the two folks you see there on the background, that's obviously that's you, Miss Warner.

>> Correct.

>> And you're out there speaking on the conversing on the playground, right?

>> Correct.

>> All right. And you're facing the other students who were there present on the playground.

>> Correct. I think or my head is turned towards her. I'm not sure.

>> You're speaking to each other. This is you're discussing the possibility that JT might have a weapon.

>> I was telling her that she could call the mom at any time and to see if he would come over to me, asking her where he was.

>> Right. And then after you finish speaking with her, you leave the playground. Right.

>> Correct. Because I had to go test.

>> You had to go test.

>> State test. Yes.

>> Right. They were statemandated tests.

>> Correct.

>> That require strict compliance.

>> Correct.

>> And you prioritize that over confirming whether or not there was a firearm on this child.

>> I had already told the assistant principal several times thinking she would do action because I was getting ready to go test and did not have my phone. I'm going to show you clip 64 G of the defense.

>> That should appear on your display shortly. Can you see it?

>> No.

>> Now I can.

>> Brian, can you please put

>> permission to publish the jury judge?

>> Any objection? No objection. You may publish. Brian, can you play the book, please? That's you and Mrs. Warner walking back towards the building. And if you could pause, Brian, there's you're walking just normally. There's no urgency, right? It's just casual pace.

>> I mean, I was walking. I just had my knee replaced. Then

>> you weren't hustling back into the building to report directly to the administration.

>> I had already reported several times. And you were walking back to the building, right?

>> I was towards your back. Are you seeing these children who are on the playground?

>> My back is not towards them right now in this video.

>> But when you're in the building, you're not out there with the children, right?

>> No, I was not.

>> Miss Kovac, do you remember after the shooting happens, you spoke with law enforcement,

>> correct?

>> And you told us folks that when you were speaking to Mrs. Warner on the playground. You told her that you thought if anything JT had a toy gun.

>> I do not recall that.

>> Your honor, I would ask you. I'm going to play defense exhibit 5788. What's been what has been marked for identification? It should appear on your display, Miss Kobach. I'm going to ask if you recognize this.

>> What number again is it?

>> This 578A88, your honor.

>> 57. Switch to 57 A10.

>> You want me just to pause it so you can

>> That's fine. We can do 57 A8.

>> A right.

>> No, you're right.

>> Okay. Sorry,

>> Miss Kovac, would it refresh your recollection to review your interview with law enforcement?

>> I have not reviewed that. I know after the shooting I went into pretty much shock at that time. So, yes, I have not seen it or heard it. The only thing I've seen is one body cam when the police were coming in on us. Miss Kobe, after this event happened, after this tragedy happened, after you spoke to law enforcement, after everything else we talked about, you reached out to Dr. Parker

>> after the shooting.

>> Do you remember texting her and wishing her well?

>> I don't truly remember that.

>> Objection, your honor, to hear.

>> All right. You're asking her about a text that she sent that this witness sent?

>> Yes, but it wouldn't be offered for the truth.

>> All right. All right. She She sent it. So, he's not asking for a response.

>> Are you showing? Am

>> I correct? You just want to show her her chat.

>> I'll

Show this to the witness as well as council and they can see it.

Okay. So, the objection is over. We'll adjust that portion. Anything she texted if she can identify it. Brian, can you pull up exhibit 119 P131, please?

Uh, exhibit 119-P131. Fact, do you see that on your display?

Yes.

Please take time to review that.

You want me to read it out loud?

No, read it to yourself.

Oh, I'll focus your attention on the per text down this document that you're looking at.

Mhm.

Do you recognize this is a text message you sent to Dr. Parker?

I think it was in the group text.

Group text. And you can see I mean and the date is this is in January of 2023 after the incident. Correct.

Correct. I mean, I'm a I'm a kind person. I have permission to publish to the jury. Your honor, any objection to just I guess her text?

And your honor, I I would object to this text. I think certainly the entirety should not come in because of hearsay, your honor, but then when you sent just her text, I do feel it is out of context. I would object to having that come in. I don't see how that's relevant to what happened on the January 6th.

All right.

She sent after when she said she's in shock.

Right. So, your objection is relevance.

Yes.

Okay. I'm overruling that and they've now brought up just her text. So, I'm going to overrule that objection and you may publish.

Move back.

Yes.

Have you published?

This is two days after the incident.

Yes.

And you're sending a message to Dr. Parker. Quote, "You are an amazing person and educator."

Then that is true. She.

No one could have predicted this. That's what you told her.

Meaning a six-year-old would bring a gun to school premeditated to shoot his teacher.

No one would have predicted that. And you were telling her the truth then, right?

I've been telling the truth the whole time.

So you agree here in court today, no one could have predicted this?

Judge, I'm going to object to it. No one.

Yeah. I'm going to sustain that objection.

No further questions to the witness judge.

All right. Thank you.

All right. Any uh redirect?

All right. No redirect. All right. Um, is she under your subpoena as well?

Yes. Just making sure that text.

Yeah, I did. Yep. I admitted it. Um, all right. So, do you want her um released for the day?

Released for the day, your honor. We'll let her know if we need her.

Okay.

All right. So, you're still technically a witness, but I'm not going to keep you here for the next eight days. Um, so you are going to be free to go, but do not discuss your testimony or anything about this case uh with anyone or listen to or hear about any of the coverage. Okay.

Okay.

All right. They'll let you know if you are released or needed back here. Okay.

All right. Thank you very much. All right. Uh, who is your next witness?

Dr. Alan Chap, your honor, and he is in the witness room.

All right. And is this um is this an expert witness, sir?

All right. Is has there been any.

What's that?

There's no controversy with.

Okay. I was going to say I didn't recognize that name as anyone we previously discussed. Okay. Um, ladies and gentlemen, I know I told you this at the very beginning of the trial. I know I said a lot of things at the beginning of the trial, but I just want to remind you uh that statements by attorneys or the court during any evidentary arguments, as you've heard, we're not going to make you get up and leave every time we do that because we'd never get this done. Um, are not evidence and should not be considered as evidence. They're just legal arguments for the parties. Okay. Thank you very much.

Witness your own.

All right.

Stop there and raise right hand for me. Thank you.

Can you write up a testimony you're about to give to the count? Mark, have a seat over here, please. Come over here. Just watch your step. Good afternoon, doctor. We're close to a promised time to get on the stand, I hope. Uh, could you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury your full name, please?

So, my name is Alan Chap.

And you are a doctor?

Yes.

Can we go through briefly your medical educational background so the jury can understand why you're here today?

Yes.

Where did you go to med school?

University of Cincinnati.

And when did you graduate from University of Cincinnati?

2008. And after you left Cincinnati in 2008, I take that you've been working in the medical field.

Correct?

Do you have a specialty?

Uh, surgical critical care and trauma surgery.

Surgical.

Critical care.

Could you explain to the jury what surgical critical care is?

So, uh, critical care is when we take the, uh, people that have, you know, life-threatening illnesses, um, life-threatening injuries, um, they go to the intensive care unit. That's the my job is to take care of them.

What is the difference between an emergency room doctor where people come in by ambulance and what you do in the surgical critical care field?

So the emergency room doctors the ones that see the uh injuries or illnesses initially um do the diagnosis do the you know work up the needed and then we come in as consultants once they figure out that this is something that needs our expertise.

And that expertise being surgical.

Yes. Now, after you graduated from Cincinnati, where did you go work in the field of surgical critical care?

Uh, well, I did um surgery residency and surgical curricular fellowship at Eastern Virginia.

And when did you finish that?

2013.

And after 2013, did you continue your education or you go.

I worked afterwards.

Tell us where you went to work.

So, initially it was in um right outside Durham, North Carolina at a hospital down there and then I was in private practice for another two years and then I came back to River or I started at Riverside as a critical care and trauma surgeon. Uh, and I've been there for seven years.

So, you have been at Riverside Hospital as a critical care surgical doctor for seven years.

That's correct.

At this time, and your specialty is surgical critical care.

Yes, sir.

Your honor, at this time, I'd like to tender Dr. Chap as an expert in the field of surgical critical care.

Any objection?

No objection, your honor.

So, admitted and acknowledged.

Now, doctor, before I ask you about your particular testimony here with regard to Abig Abigail Warner, did I show you and prepare based on the medical records anatomical illustration showing what happened to Miss Werner?

Yes.

Permission to approach record you conceded.

And let me ask you if this is in fact that medical illustration and would it help you describe to the jury what happened for purposes of your care of her?

Yes.

Your honor, at this time I'd like to have permission. I'll leave one up there to show up on your screen. Uh permission to publish it to the jury.

Any objection?

No objection.

Without objection.

MV11.

I'm sorry. What number was that given?

MV11, your honor.

Thank you.

Looks a little bit different on mine. Now you see what's on your screen so you can see it as well. I want to go over if we could first upon arrival at the hospital could you tell us what were and I believe it's in the upper left hand corner and I think with a little luck I can show you on your screen. Do you see the red?

I do.

Congratulations. Uh could you go through and tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what were your concerns upon her arriving under your care?

So the first time I met the patient um the medics brought her in and um you could tell that she was um anxious uh diaphic or sweating. Um when she was hooked up to the monitor, her blood pressures were dangerously low. Um her oxygen levels were low. Uh she was complaining of chest pain. She was complaining of trouble breathing.

Well, let's go through some of the terminology that's used in this record which is in the medical records given to you. Uh what does hypotensive mean?

It means that her uh blood pressure is low.

And when you say blood blood pressure is low, what does that indicate to someone in your field? surgical specialist.

Well, with a a traumatic injury like um I worry about that she's bleeding from somewhere.

All right. What does hypoxic mean?

Means she's not getting enough oxygen or oxygen levels are low.

And I take it you measure that and there's a certain critical level where low is a danger to someone like Abigail's order.

Correct.

Uh lightaded, chest pain, all of those things. Let's talk about the last one, teardia. What does that mean to the.

Her heart rate is is high.

Now, this is how she arrives in your care initially with diagnosis.

Yes, sir. And what do you do with regard to stabilizing her upon her arrival at Riverside?

So, every time you meet need a trauma patient, you want to make sure that you know she, you know, basically what we call is protect her airway. So, if she's, you know, breathing, um, or does she need, you know, support and she need um, she did need a face mask for additional oxygen. Um, you check to make sure you look at her blood pressure. Um, and you, you know, with her blood pressure being low, we start to figure out, you know, where, you know, why her blood pressure is low. Um, is she bleeding from somewhere? Um.

I take it there was a bullet hole in her body that was evident.

Yes.

Yes.

Do you all do scans and X-rays as well for purposes of trying to zero in where the damage is?

Yes. You do a chest X-ray in in what we call the trauma bay or initial resuscitative room.

I want to start using this diagram by first going to the bottom right hand corner which is the anterior skeletal view and tell us sorry professional this one. Tell us what this is and what are we looking at for purposes of Abigail's rare injury.

So, you're looking at um basically uh her the the bone in the front is the sternum. Um and then she's got ribs on either side. You can see her since you're looking straight on it, it's her left shoulder. Um and you can see the bolt wound right underneath her left shoulder or we call the exel or armpit.

And that is a broken rib if I'm not mistaken on the fracture of the left fourth rib.

Yes. Now, let's go to the center and explain to the jury what we're looking at first, describing the bullet entrance for purposes of her body and what was going on here in this diagram.

So, the bullet wound was in like in her left axilla or armpit. Um, it went into her chest. You could see that by the um going through the the rib and basically gone into the chest wall then through the lung and um that basically sits right next to her backbone the bone.

I I'm going to again try to.

Tell us is this here the circle that I'm around. Tell me what that is.

That's like a cross-section of her heart.

And what is the the pointed area there that looks like a silver piece?

That's a bullet fragment.

Okay. And that would be the remnants of the bulleted editor body.

Yes, sir.

Now, I'm going to shift from that diagram for a second into the bottom left. Describe for the jury what we're looking at here as it relates to the center diagram that shows the bullet entry into her lung. Are we looking at her spinal column?

Yes, that's correct.

And is that again the same bullet fragment that entered from the center diagram?

Yes.

Now, what does that mean to you as a surgeon? Can we go in to someone like Abby Werner urgently and remove that? Is that something that you would do immediately or would you not do it? What's the diagnosis and how do you get through it?

I would not take that bullet out initially. No.

All right. Tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury why layman's got a bullet. Get the bullet out. Tell me why you don't do it as a surgical in someone in Abigail's Wner's condition.

Well, there's it's too much um important uh structures around it, nerves, bones, muscles, um large blood vessels that could cause more damage.

Well, as you sit here and look at the diagram and you see the bullet close to the spinal column and uh close to her obviously through her lungs, what is it that you do to help stabilize her with a bullet that's remaining in her body?

So what happened to her is that you can see the bullet track and what happens is it goes through the chest wall into her lung basically um we call pulmonary confusion or a large bruise uh in a laceration and then what happens is that air from the lung um and the chest wall um fills up between the lung and the chest and actually compresses the lung. U blood also gets into that area and that makes it dangerous because um she won't be able to breathe. If it pushes on the heart her heart will stop. And so what she needed was a chest tube that goes between the chest wall and the lung to pull that blood out to pull that air out.

All right, so let's talk about the air and the blood. How does that form after a bullet hole goes through the lung? Is that just your body bleeding?

It's your body bleeding. And then think about when you take a breath, um the air that's supposed to stay in the lung and you exhale it, the air that you breathe in is going to go between now that she has a hole in her lung between the chest and the lung itself.

And what is the danger of why doesn't the air and the blood just drain out?

Well, it's trapped into the it's trapped in the chest.

And what is it that you do for purposes of putting a tube in for purposes of relieving that problem?

Um, so you actually make an uh you want the procedure.

What do you do the jury?

So you have to so basically in the emergency room um you have to make a incision kind of right below her nipple line um because that's where the injury is. That's where the space will be. And you insert a a plastic tube, we just call a chest tube, um, and hook it up to suction and that will pull the blood and the air out and allow the lung to reexpand.

Do you do that and leave it in or do you take it out? What? Tell me what happens after you put in the tube.

So, we leave it in uh because we need to, you know, verify that the lung the blood has been drained and we need to verify what we call the lung uh reexpanding or um coming up. So.

All right, I'm going to talk to you about the white box under the yellow box. I'm not about to say those words out loud. Tell us what we're talking about. What was wrong with her? As you point to the left lung.

So the left lung, the words in the left lung basically mean that the top part, there's two loes of your left lung. The top part um had an injury through because of the bullet called a laceration. Uh the contusion part is the damage that the bullet, you know, um makes as it goes through. Like basically contusion means bruise. Um but she's got a large bruise around that laceration. Um, and this agileis is basically a term for her lung to collapse.

And did her lung collapse?

Yes.

And when it collapses, how does it come back to normal?

Uh, it has to be intervened on with this tube. Yes.

And that will then bring it back up to a normal breathing for as long as you have that tube there.

Yes.

Now, let me take you to the upper right hand corner. And I believe that this is an X-ray taken on the day of the shooting. And you will see the yellow arrows and white dots in her left lung. Could you tell, ladies and gentlemen, the jury what those signify? This is an actual X-ray, correct?

That's correct. Tell us what we're looking at here on Abigail's Wner on the January 6. What are those?

So the arrow toward the middle of the screen is the bullet fragment. Um the Yes.

All right.

And then the two arrows on the left, excuse me, I'm saying left because that's the left. The right one.

That's correct. That's her left side cuz the X-rays you're looking straight at it.

Um so the arrows on her left side, um you show different you show more fragments. You show air in her uh in her tissues there. And also the uh arrow on the bottom shows the rip fracture.

All right. So what is what are we looking at when you say air? What do we see that we would know as layman that that's air? I know you would know what it is, but what are we looking at for purposes of showing that there's air there?

If you just see just to clarify if you you were looking at.

What is it there that tells you that there's air in her lung? Just the cloudiness.

Yeah. So the cloudiness and then if you actually look at the bottom part of the lung, you can see how that lung side of lung is a lot Yeah. down further. It's a lot I call larger or longer than the one on the right side. That means that air has gotten into the the chest wall.

And gotten trapped.

Yes.

Now, let's go to the center bullet fragment here. This is the same fragment that we saw earlier that is next to the spinal cord.

Yes.

How close is that bullet fragment to the heart of Abigail's Wner at the time that she is in the Riverside?

A few centimeters.

And could you with your hand show, ladies and gentlemen, the jury what? A few centimeters.

Something like that. Yeah.

And why is it that you can't go in and remove that bullet fragment? doing this anytime you would try to get to that area, there'd be too much things that you could damage and make it worse.

And when there is a bullet fragment 2 centimeters away from the aorta, what's the danger if that bullet fragment moves?

Uh, it could be into anything. It be the aorta could bleed. Um.

And if a bullet fragment gets into the aorta.

It's significant life-threatening bleeding.

Would you consider Abigail Warner's injuries at that time when you were treating her at Riverside Hospital to be critical?

Yes. And are all of the things that you treated her for as a result of this bullet injury on January 6 causally related to because of the bullet?

Yes.

Now, let me talk about what you did after you helped her lung get back to breathing. Did an assessment. What kind of doctors did you recommend be brought in? I'm not going through in detail with you because we have orthopedic surgeons tomorrow with regard to her hand, but obviously she had a bullet injury to her hand.

What did you do? You're not an orthopedic surgeon. Did you bring in a team to do that?

Yes. Do you remember uh who it is that came in?

Uh Dr. Anderson.

Right. And what is the difference between what Dr. Anderson does as an orthopedic surgeon for the hand injuries versus what you do in the critical care? Is it just focused on the hand?

Yes.

Did you know whether or not he had brought in an extra doctor to assist him with the injuries to the hand?

Not at the time, but it did later.

Did later. Now, [clears throat] with regard to the bullet fragment near the aorta, was a doctor brought in to assist with that as well?

Not at the time. No. Was another doctor brought in besides the orthopedic team, but a different team?

Dr.

Dr. Mun?

Yes, he's he's one of my partners.

Okay. And what was the difference between Dr. Mun doing and what you were doing after you did the initial assessment? What did Dr. Mun's role? What was his role?

Continuing the surgical care treatment.

So, both of you treated her Abigail as long as she was in the Riverside Hospital.

Yes.

Any idea as we sit here how long she was in Riverside?

I honestly I can't remember. About a week.

I'll let her talk about it.

Yeah. Uh, I take it that she was not healed when she left, but that's all you could do for purposes of keeping her in the hospital. She was going to continue on with treatment elsewhere. [clears throat]

Yes.

And you let other doctors take over the care after she left Riverside in your care and Dr. Mun's care?

Yes. One second. Thought I said that. Doctor, of all the opinions you've given here today, to a reasonable degree of medical probability, all of the things that have happened to her and what you've talked about, your reasonable medical probability, all your opinions you've given.

Yes.

Thought I asked that, but maybe I didn't. I think those are all the questions I have. Doc, thank.

Cross examination.

No questions for the doctor.

No questions. Is he excused?

Yes.

All right.

And no other subpoena. Correct.

Correct.

All right. Your time with us is over.

Thank you.

All right. Next witness.

It will be uh Julie Zorner. Can you raise your right hand for us, please?

Raise your right hand.

Sorry.

All right. Come up. Sit here, please. Good afternoon, Julie. Hey.

Uh, can you state your name, please, for the jury and then spell it for the court reporter, please?

Sure. Julie Zorner. J U L I E Z W E R N E R.

And can you tell the jury um what your relationship to Abby is?

Yeah, Abby is my middle child.

And tell the jury a little bit about your family. How many children do you have?

Okay. um have three children. Daniel is the oldest. Um 16 months after he was born, I had twin girls, Abby and her sister Hannah.

Okay. Uh and tell the jury too a little bit about yourself. You were a teacher for some time, correct?

Yeah. Spent 23 years in the classroom.

And what are you doing right now currently for your employment?

Um I'm back in a school as the register in an elementary school. So, left the classroom, but still am in an elementary school doing what I think I'm good at, recordkeeping and crunching numbers.

Um, and can you tell the jury a little bit about your daughter, her career path, why she became a teacher?

Yeah. Well, um, ever since kindergarten, I was in Abby and Hannah's school. They were in the same grade, of course, being twins. Um, so when they were in elementary school, I was a part of their school, um, through their graduation of high school. So, I taught elementary, then I moved to high school, and I'd always been a teacher in her school. Um, I do think that Abby kind of grew to love the profession. She decided to go to college to be a teacher and earned her master's degree from James Madison. She did a 5-year program to be a teacher. Um, part of that decision-making process, she did some shadowing at West Point Elementary where she spent some time in classrooms and kind of decided, "Yeah, this is what I want to do. Think I'd be good at this." Um, also at James Madison, she worked part-time in a preschool and kind of learned that she did love the little ones. And I'm gonna share with the jury right now, Reed, a picture uh that you can tell us about from her graduation. When you see it, we'll share with the jury.

Oh, you want me to talk about that?

Yeah, that [laughter] that.

Yeah, that was her graduation at um James Madison.

Can you publish it to the jury, please? Thank you.

Any objection?

No, your honor.

All right. What number are we giving this?

And this will be plaintiffs 90A.

98.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Judge.

So, without objection, published.

Thank you.

Okay. I mean, I see the big smile. Just so proud and happy to have accomplished what she accomplished looking right at the camera.

And that was the day of her graduation.

Mhm. Yep. The ceremony at James Madison for her school.

And so on that day, uh, did she know she wanted to be a teacher and that was her plan?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. She was already well on the path. She just had student teaching left, like that final year student teaching.

And where did she do her student teaching at?

She did the first part up in Harrisonenberg. Um I believe it was a third grade classroom and then she was able to do the second half in Williamsburg. Um we lived in West Point at the time. So that was great because she lived at home for that last semester and um that was kind of fun cuz you know we were both teaching both working on our lesson plans at night and getting our materials prepared and that sort of thing. That was fun.

And can you tell the jury a little about um your daughter's interests and and her personality before Janu January 6, 2023?

Mhm. Um, personalitywise, Abby is kind and gentle, very compassionate, the kind of person that, um, people are very comfortable talking to. She makes friends easily. Um, when she makes a friend, it's a it's a deep friendship. Um, she loves music. She loves nature. She learned to love hiking from her dad. They spent lots of time, all the kids did, with with uh, John, hiking in the mountains. Um, funny. Aby's quiet but just will out of the blue say something so dry and funny catches you off guard. Yeah. And silly.

And I know this is a a tough subject. Um but your your husband has passed. Her father, correct?

Yep. It's been five years.

Five years.

And tell the jury a little bit about her twin sister was a teacher, correct?

Yeah. Hannah taught for about two and a half years. Um up until the time when this incident happened. Hannah did not go back to the classroom after that. But um Hannah didn't train or study to be a teacher. She had an English degree, English and musical theater, and she kind of fell into a job because a high school needed an English teacher. So she taught um provisionally with a provisional license. Um which she was, you know, you have three years to do that. So she did that. I would not say it was her passion. I definitely feel like Abby, it became her passion. Like she knew that going into college that that's what she wanted to do. Hannah sort of fell into it.

And how do you know that was.

The relevance of her sister's. Um.

And we'll move on, your honor, from her sister's.

All right, I will allow what has been testifying to ask you to move on.

And you stated it was Aby's passion. Why do you feel that that was Aby's passion? That distinguishment. Why do you feel that that's her passion over her sister?

Um, just the the excitement, the joy, the dedication that she showed toward this. um you know from student teaching on the the Saturdays she would go to yard sales looking for things to put in her classroom. The time that she would spend on her own time after hours creating materials, organizing things. Um she would light up when she kind of discovered some tricks to teaching reading to young kids or the science lessons. She was always so excited to share things that you know trees or birds or the the solar system stars, things like that. That's passion when you get excited about it. She was excited to be in the classroom and teach those kids.

And Julie, now I want to talk about January 6th, 2023. Can you tell the jury where you were at the time that you got a phone call about your daughter?

I was at work. Um, it's the middle of the day, mid-afternoon after lunch and uh my phone rang and I typically don't answer my phone when I'm at work and I didn't recognize the name or the number so I ignored it. Um, the phone rang again and I thought, well, something's going on. let me answer and you know see who it is. And um the name was Brianna Newton and I didn't [clears throat] I knew who that was but not in the moment. It didn't occur to me. I mean, it was so out of context.

And real quick, who was that since you said.

Um Aby's building principal.

Okay.

Um I'd never met her but I knew the name, you know, after the fact. But when the phone was ringing, I was at work. I didn't know. I picked it up on the second ring the second time she called and um she said, "Aby's been shot." Just like that. Aby's been shot. and um she must have said she's at Riverside. That was the the extent of the conversation. Hung up. Um literally like grabbed my jacket, lunchbox, bag, went to the next room, and told my co-workers, "Aby's been shot." And I ran out the door. I ran across the parking lot, got in my car. I was working in Williamsburg. Um before I hit the first stoplight, I had called a friend from church. Um Aby's been shot. Please let our prayer group know, our Bible study group. um called my sister Karen. Same thing. Um drove to Williamsburg. I don't really remember the trip, but I know I was, you know, driving way faster than I should have to get to the hospital. By the time I was getting close to the hospital, I remember I was hyperventilating and saying, um, I can't do this again. I can't do this again. I remember that thought.

I just object to uh we're not here on Miss Warner's images. We're here to talk about the doctors.

All right, moving along.

Your honor.

All I knew is that she had been shot. I didn't know anything else. I didn't know if she was alive or not.

And so once you get to the hospital, who greets you at the hospital?

Well, nobody greeted me at the hospital. It was locked down. I didn't know that happened. So, I got to the doors and I couldn't get in and I could see police officers in the emergency room and I didn't know what was going on. Again, I didn't all I knew had been shot.

I didn't know by who or when or.

No, I knew nothing. Um it was about 5 minutes I'm guessing when a deputy or a police officer came and let me in and they didn't tell me anything. They just led me through the emergency room down some long halls and I realized we were headed to the sanctuary in the hospital.

Okay. Um so you ended up being brought to Abby in a room eventually. Correct.

Eventually. Yes. It was hours later. Okay. That um.

So at that initial time you didn't know her condition. You weren't sure what was going to happen at that moment?

No, eventually I was told she was in surgery, so I knew she was still living. Um, but right, I didn't really know much at that point.

So, describe for the jury, um, when you saw your daughter, what was her appearance like? What was her demeanor like?

I mean, she was in pain, you know, all bandaged up, all tubes and machines hooked up to her. Um her arm was all wrapped up and um she saw me come through the room and she just said mommy.

And you had shared just she normally doesn't call you mommy.

Oh [laughter] no.

What does she normally call you?

I mean just mom.

Yeah.

But I hadn't been mommy in years.

And when you saw her, was she able to communicate with you?

No, she was pretty out of it. think she was in a lot of pain and just, you know, her her eyes wide like she was in shock and kind of didn't know what was going on. [snorts]

And how many days was she in the hospital initially?

Um maybe four, but I I don't remember. I don't remember how many days she was there.

Okay.

And tell the jury when she was released.

Did she go home with you?

She did. She came to live with me um so that I could take care of her.

[snorts]

Yeah.

And what was Aby's condition when she was released to you?

Um, when she came to my place, she had a cast [snorts] like a, you know, elbow all the way down.

And.

Big and bulky.

Okay. Thank you. Um, and your honor, there is another photo that we'll be submitting as plaintiffs at 90B that I'd like to publish to the jury now.

Any objections?

Uh, no, your honor.

All right. Admitted and published.

So, you were describing a cast. Do you see the photo in front of you?

Yeah.

Is that Abby on the day she was released from the hospital?

Yeah, because she's got her bag in her lap. We're wheeling her out. It looks like.

Looks like she has a smile on under her mask.

Yeah.

So, the cast, the size of that cast, why is it that large? Do you know?

It was all the wrapping.

Okay. Was it swollen?

So, yeah, it was very, very swollen and all the wrapping. Um, I mean, you can even see her fingers are swollen right there. Yeah. And this doesn't show the chest injury. she, you know, has a bullet hole in her chest and the bullet's still in there. Um, so you can't see that in that photo, but those were also part of her injuries.

And when [snorts] you brought her to her house, what did the care of Abby look like? What did you have to do to help care for her at that time?

Um, anything that would require two hands. So, um, she needed help dressing. She she wore that t-shirt home, but we had to order like hospital gowns that would button could get them around the cast. We kind of got into a routine. what you did first. We had to figure that out. You know, which arm goes first and so forth and so on. She needed wound care um on her chest because that was a a raw wound. So, we had to take care of that. Um she couldn't bathe. She couldn't wash her hair. She couldn't wash her hands clearly. She couldn't eat something like a sandwich that would take two hands. She was unable to open her medicine bottle. She couldn't um you know physically these are things any limitation she couldn't do with her two hands. So, I was dressing her. I was cleaning her, um, putting the toothpaste on her toothbrush, um, taking the cap off her deodorant, helping her step into her underwear, helping her step into her sweatpants, putting the hospital gown on, all that kind of stuff she needed help doing.

So, she wasn't even able to use the restroom alone at this time.

No. No.

Um, and she wasn't able to shower for at least a month after. Correct.

Yeah. It was a good month um that before she showered. Yeah.

And even then, you would have to help her with all of that.

Correct.

And she wasn't able to drive during this time at all?

No. No, she wasn't driving.

And did she have medical appointments that she would have to go to?

She did. She did. She had a lot of appointments. Um I took two weeks off work and then her sister Hannah took time off after that to help um get Abby to and from all the appointments and could, you know, still take care of her.

And tell the jury, are there still medical appointments that she's dealing with to this day?

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, Abby is driving now. Um, but she she still has she's still not done with surgery. Um, she had her most recent surgery. I think it was number six was in April. Um, she recently had a follow-up for that and we're still just kind of waiting. Um, she has a plate in her hand still and it's not healing the way they want. That April surgery was actually a bone graft. They took bone out of her right hip and put it in her um, hand. And that's what they're watching for. That's what they're waiting on. She has another appointment in December. So, it's just kind of like this waiting game. Um so, between now and December, she's just continuing to wear the brace um as much as possible and go to the doctor in December. And at that point, they'll decide if they're ready to remove the plate. If not, we're waiting more. Um once all that's done, we still have more OT appointments ahead of her. So, it's just kind of this never ending. [laughter]

And just for the D OT, occupational therapy.

Occupational therapy, right? or she'll learn how to use the, you know, the fine motor skills that she's lost with her with her left hand.

And describe your daughter's personality since January 6 of 2023.

Now, she's afraid a lot. Um, certain certain things scare her. Um, crowds going to certain places she won't she won't go to. Um, things I've never had to think about have been an issue for Abby. For example, we've had a couple of family like baby shower kinds of things with balloons. And the first time one of those balloons popped, you know, it was traumatizing for Abby. It was like being right back there. Nobody in the family ever thought twice about not having balloons there. You know, we don't think that way. We've never had to. But that's how that's what Aby's world is now. those things that you don't expect to trigger um can trigger. Um something else that happened fairly recently, we were going to go see a movie and we even had the tickets. Um and the morning of the day we were going to go see the movie, Abby literally could not leave her house. She said, "I can't go. I don't want to go. There's there's a scene in that movie I just I can't I can't go."

Do you mind me asking what movie it was?

Um it was the the film version of Hamilton.

Okay. And I know there are a couple of dueling scenes in there and I I don't know if that's what she was referring to. That's what I think probably. Um but things I never would have thought about before. Um I'm learning to like consider what her world is like, you know, just being afraid of things or things happening without warning. Um that kind of bring her right back. She really has trouble um staying in touch with people. people reach out to her by text or leave a voice message and um you know she hears it, she reads it, she just cannot find the the energy to reply or to commit or to you know call back or whatever it is. Um so that's [snorts] been hard. I feel like she kind of is in a shell. She doesn't really have a purpose right now where her job was the thing that centered her and fulfilled her and her way to make the world a better place. Um, Aby's livein from appointment to appointment, not really knowing what what's next.

And how was she immediately after the hospital when she was staying with you for those first couple months of getting out of bed or trying to do things?

Abby, from from that day, she has done everything the doctors have asked her to do and she has um really tried to get better. I mean, I applaud her the way that she has just put one foot behind the other and just done done what she needed to do to get better, to heal. She goes to therapy a couple times a week. Um, two different therapists with different specialties. She's trying to get better. She's doing everything that she should be doing. Um, but I do just I see she's overwhelmed by it. Um, I would say she's depressed.

Actually, no.

Okay. And.

Yeah, I'm gonna Any argument you want to make on that? Uh, I'll ask her to if your honor would allow to describe the emotion, but you're not a doctor, so please be mindful not to we'll have someone else correct, but does she seem sad or happy?

So that's sustained. Yes. And striking the word depression. Okay. Thank you very much. Right.

Maybe she.

So try to describe her emotion.

Well, I can describe what I see. She has trouble getting out of bed sometimes. She has trouble um setting goals, making decisions. Um she does not find joy in things she used to find joy in. um she sleeps a lot. So those are things that I see.

And at this time, do you know um what Aby's plans are moving forward with a career?

No, because she can't make plans. She doesn't know what her future is going to look like. Um, assuming assuming the hand gets as good as it's going to get and she finishes OT and all that, she's she's, you know, in a lot of pain. It's it's painful. Um.

And talking about that, she's head How's her right hand, the one that was not shot with the ball.

Right. And her right hand.

I'm just objecting. We're getting into medical testimony from a lay person. These are things that Miss Warner herself can describe. I've allowed this to go on for a fair amount of time, but I'm going to have to object.

You have a response. And your honor, I'm certainly not asking her to get into any medical conditions, but to describe, she's very familiar with her daughter. She's the one who's supporting her daughter and seeing the struggles and having to, you know, open containers and do certain things for her daughter. She certainly understands what her daughter's capabilities are. So, I'm more asking for the capabilities that her daughter that she can observe her daughter doing.

All right. I'm going to overrule it. And you're permitted to certainly um testify your observations of things. What Abby has told me is that her right hand, even though it's her dominant hand, because she's having to compensate and use her right hand more, that that is often sore now as well. Okay. And you were asking about future plans. Um, none none that we've discussed. Um, she has shared that she doesn't want to go back into the classroom, which I think is it saddens me, but I totally understand. Um, I think Abby was becoming a really good teacher. Um, and so that does sadden me, but I I don't know what her her limitations are going to be and what what kind of work she'll be allowed to do or be able to to handle.

And is there anything else that you want to share with the jury about your daughter since the shooting?

Um, I would share that Abby has never complained. Not once have I heard her complain about what's happened and what she's been going through. She's more worried about others. Um, in fact, today she wanted to be here when I'm up here to support me and that that's who Abby is.

Yeah.

Thank you. You only have the judges questions or present culture.

Cross examination.

Just a few questions, Miss Order. Um, are you aware that your daughter's been in cosmetology school since the shooting?

Yes.

Okay. So, she's she there's some positive sides here. She's um that was something she had been considering before this event. Correct.

No. No. She always liked doing hair, but cosmetology was not something that she'd considered as a career. No.

To your knowledge. [clears throat]

To my knowledge. Correct.

But she did um complete a one year of cosmetology. Correct. And she's become licensed as a cosmetologist.

Right. Correct. That's right.

And um she's also made a lot of media appearances. You talked about being out in the public. She's also made a lot of media.

I think she did two. One was in my home and I think the other was at Dian's office.

Because you've been on the Today Show.

Right? That was they came to my home. It wasn't like out in the public.

Putting yourself out in the public. Agree.

Sure.

And you've um there's been a tremendous amount of community support for your daughter. Correct.

I would say so. Yes.

No further questions.

All right. Any followup?

No, your honor.

All right. Um is she uh excused?

Yes, your honor.

All right. And is she going to be recalled at any point?

Not from us, your honor. Speaking for Miss Warner for a moment, I think she'd like to be in the courtroom. So, unless there's intention from defense council to call her later in their case, we'd ask permission to release her and allow her to sit in the courtroom and serve.

That was my next question. Any objection to releasing her at this time?

No objection, your honor.

Okay. All right. You are now relieved of your subpoena as a witness. You may now stay in the courtroom if you so desire. Okay.

All right. What do we have next?

I may be the bearer of good news or bad news depending on how your honor takes it for the jury. Um, we're ahead of schedule, so that was the last witness that we have for today.

Okay. Um, I think there are some matters that we could probably address with the court, but we have no other witnesses to call this afternoon.