Transcription
Hello Benjamin! Hello Flemming! Today we are talking about the concept of Heimat. What does Heimat mean to both of us? What comes to your mind first? The first thing that comes to my mind is actually a quote from Herbert Grönemeyer, a well-known German singer whom you surely know. And he said: Heimat is not a place. Heimat is a feeling. Very nice. I am definitely sure that we can talk a lot about it, that there is a lot to say. And have fun with this episode. Exactly, definitely stay tuned! Hi Benjamin, how are you? How did you spend Easter? I spent Easter similar to last year in Czech Republic. So not with my family, not with my German family. Therefore, I didn't get an Easter nest, didn't get Easter eggs, didn't have to search for Easter eggs. I received Easter eggs because we have such a different tradition here, where men also receive Easter eggs in Czech Republic. However, not in a way that you have to search for them yourself in the garden. I missed that a bit. And of course, I would have liked to be with my family. But within the possibilities, it was still a nice Easter. And what did you do? I saw that on Sunday Hansa Rostock played against Dynamo Dresden. Did you follow that? Of course. That was the absolute top match of the league for anyone who doesn't know yet, probably most of you: I am a big fan of FC Hansa Rostock, a football club here in Germany in the third division. However, it was a top match between first and second. Dynamo Dresden is first, Hansa Rostock is second. And it was just a boring 0:0. Not a single goal. But still, it was a very fun game because we made a really nice family game out of it. I was with my family for Easter. And yes, that's perhaps something you could try too, if you have nothing better to do. Namely, drinking games for football. That's what it's called. Or player drinking in colloquial language. Sounds like a drinking game. Okay, that's not for me. Not for you, no? It's a drinking game. That means everyone gets a player, a player's name. And every time the commentator says their name, you have to drink a shot. So a small schnapps. So that after these 90 minutes then... In any case, the mood was then very, very well-tipsy and it became a really fun Easter celebration. That's how I spent my Easter and unlike you, I searched for eggs. We still do that in our family every year. Even though my siblings and I are already a bit past that age. But we maintain this tradition. Exactly, we always do that too, normally. So when I'm in Germany, we always do that too. And I find it a nice tradition, don't you think? Definitely. Every time again excited, but I also always have the bad luck that I don't find much. Honestly, I think I'm a bit too clumsy at it. And do you hide the eggs somewhere in the garden or do you go out into the forest, for example, and hide them there? No, no. My parents always hide them in their garden and in bushes, in rain gutters, under plant pots. Exactly, I know it like that too. A very nice tradition. Yes, here there is another tradition with an Easter whip. So a whip, that's actually several branches tied together, several branches and twigs from a tree or shrub. The men then, so to speak, of course only very lightly, hit the women on their behinds to drive out the evil spirits, so that they are blessed with health and luck for the next year. So that they are all healthy and happy, that is the tradition here. And as a thank you, the men then receive an egg and something sweet from the women. Okay. Funny tradition? Probably a bit... not quite contemporary anymore, one would say, I think, right? But I think traditions are just like that, you don't always have to understand them, do you? Yes, exactly. That's just how it is. So I find it quite funny too. I don't actually know it at all. I've spent it here for the third time, I think. So last year I spent it here. This year I spent Easter here, in Czech Republic, and then already three or four years ago. And I still find it funny. I can't really identify with it, let's say. I don't understand, for example, why the women get nothing or why you have to hit the women. But okay. Yes, that's how it is with traditions. So as I said, they only hit them very lightly. They hint at it. So nobody gets hurt. Definitely interesting. I didn't know that. But tradition is also a very good keyword, of course. When we think about our topic today, right? Exactly, definitely! And also referring back to the quote, because Heimat is a feeling and not a place. And that applies to me too. Okay, so we're already in a good place. I didn't want to get into the topic so quickly. I'll get to that later. We'll get to that later. I wanted to do a little game with you first. So as an introduction. Namely, the association game. Some of you will already know it from my previous podcast. And it works like this: I say a word to you and you tell me the first thing that comes to your mind. It can be one word, it can be several words. In any case, I will mention a few terms that all have more or less to do with the topic of Heimat. Okay. I'm curious. Go ahead! Let's start. Landscape. Trains. You can explain that to me later. Living room. Living room. Home. Fatherland. Germany. I'm supposed to say the first thing that comes to my mind. Exactly right. Wanderlust. Corona. Oh, okay. I won't question it for now. Family. German. Abroad. I would have said wanderlust first too. Travel. Travel fits. Then I had Saxony. Oh, wonderful. I'll say that first. Saxony, for all of you... a federal state in East Germany. Benjamin's Heimat. Identity. Benjamin. Then strangers. People I've never seen before or don't know, with whom I've never spoken. Interesting. I'll come back to that in a moment. Germany. I miss Germany, that's the first thing that comes to my mind, now that you're asking me in 2021. And then finally, home. Coziness, security. Where I feel comfortable. Okay. I would like to pick up on what you just said. You miss Germany. Why? Explain that to me! Do you miss something at home where you live? Or what is the reason for that? Oh, there are several reasons. We are recording this episode in April 2021, which means in the middle of the Corona period. And I was in Germany for the last time at Christmas. And that's why I miss Germany simply because I like the country. Because I miss the feeling of going out onto the street and hearing German, my mother tongue. And then simply... sometimes you can't really describe it. Heimat is indeed a feeling, very often. Now I say I miss Germany. I didn't say first that I miss my family. I miss them too. That's also a reason because my family is in Germany. So that is often connected with a place or perhaps several places. But sometimes it's just like that. For example, when I come to Germany for the first time after a long time, I have a totally great feeling like a small child. I'm totally excited, totally enthusiastic and think: Oh yes, that's exactly Germany. This is where I come from. I don't know, can you somehow relate to this feeling? Definitely. I have also lived abroad for a longer time in the past. I lived in Spain for several months, in Italy for several months, and also visited my home country, my country of origin, Germany, during these periods. So I know this feeling quite well, I think. Probably not as intensely as you, where you really live abroad permanently. But this missing, definitely. Although I then also always again... It always depends, so if I was on a shorter trip, maybe for two weeks on vacation, then I often think: Actually, at the end of the vacation, I don't want to go back at all. I would much rather stay here. And I don't want to go to Germany at all yet. I don't miss anything there. Nevertheless, this feeling of belonging to my homeland is always extremely present for me, no matter where I am. So I also try, for example, to spread the name of my favorite club abroad. Funny example, we just had Hansa Rostock. So I always want everyone abroad to know that I am a fan of this club. That's why I like to wear the jersey. When I'm traveling. People actually approach me about it. It's incredible. People approach me about it. What kind of club is that? Where are you from? And so on. It's always a great conversation starter. And I often express this sense of belonging to my homeland outwards. And it is important to me that on the one hand for me, that my identity, that I become clearer about my identity through this again and again. And on the other hand, I simply find it interesting and nice that I can talk about it with people from abroad and they are interested in where I come from. Yes, that's a bit similar. I've been living here for about a year and a half now, or only for a year and a half. Depending on how you look at it. And I've made it a habit, although I also speak Czech, that I always speak German when I'm out. Of course, not with people, because not everyone understands it. But when I go out with acquaintances or people I live with here and so on, and they know German, then – and they of course also know Czech, yes, they know both languages – but then we always speak German, because that's always a need for me. I just like it that for me it's like a small world or a small bubble, you could say, it also has a slightly negative connotation sometimes, but I create a small area when I ride the tram, for example, and I'm the only one, of course my conversation partner too, we are the only ones who speak German. That means everyone else doesn't speak German. Maybe there's someone who understands it, but you know what I mean, right? You have a bit of privacy. You have your home, so to speak, your Heimat brought with you. So even though I'm in another country. But I speak my language and that's a feeling. So is Heimat for you, as I hear it now, to a large extent your mother tongue. So exactly, many things play a role for me. And that's why I also think that Heimat is a very nice term because it is not clearly defined. I think everyone defines for themselves what Heimat means to them. So for me, Heimat actually means both a place where I feel secure. So Geborgenheit is also a beautiful German word. So you feel comfortable, you feel accepted, you feel loved, welcomed. Yes, so in a way, this has also become my chosen Heimat here. Yes, because I definitely feel secure here. I feel comfortable here. I have people here who love me and whom I love. But there are other things that play a role. Language plays a very big role for me. So I can't imagine living anywhere and completely giving up German, the German language. So that's part of it for me. And when I just turn on German radio over the internet and just this... that's also something funny. I also listen to regional radio stations, partly from Germany, just to have this contact, to have the feeling that I am actually in Germany. So language and my family, yes, so the people I grew up with. So if they weren't in Germany anymore, then I might have a third Heimat, namely where they are. And exactly there you hit on something good. You can definitely have more than one Heimat. Would you see it that way? Yes, I would see it that way. Although I would always say Heimat and chosen Heimat. So Heimat is perhaps still a bit more than what I have here now. I would rather call that my chosen Heimat. But this feeling, for example, what I told you earlier, when I come to Germany for the first time after a long time, I'm like a little boy, really happy. And I don't have that feeling when I come back here after a long time. So then I also say "Okay, I'm happy that I'm home again. And here I have all my things and everything." But I don't feel that enthusiasm there. Okay, so this feeling of Heimat, as you brought up the quote from Herbert Grönemeyer at the beginning, it must definitely be associated with a positive feeling, right? Or can you... When you say, a chosen Heimat, Czech Republic is your chosen Heimat, does that still mean that you have to feel comfortable there to call it your chosen Heimat? Or could it also be that if you don't feel comfortable somewhere, but you just live there because you have to work there, can it still be your chosen Heimat? Do you understand the question? Yes, of course. Excuse me, that was formulated a bit complicated, therefore. No, it's okay. I understand the question. So yes, it is definitely associated with a positive feeling. So if I have to live somewhere and I don't really want to live there and don't feel secure there, for example, don't feel welcomed, don't know anyone there, or I only have work there and want to leave as soon as possible when I have free time, then I don't want to call that my chosen Heimat. Therefore, Heimat is not necessarily home. Home is where you live, simply. I could also have a home somewhere in America, perhaps. So maybe I built a house there and then I go there again and again. But I wouldn't call that my chosen Heimat. Unless I also have a family there and really build a life there and have people there permanently who accept me, accept me, love me, where I really feel comfortable permanently. Then I would also call that my chosen Heimat, as it is now. But what you just said, I think that's important to emphasize again. I don't know how much German learners, for example, have a problem with this term Heimat. But we also talked about it beforehand that Heimat doesn't exist in every language. This term is not translatable into every language. So Home is not necessarily the same as Heimat. English speakers, for example, or English-speaking people probably, I'm not a hundred percent sure, but also not for what we want to express with Heimat, not always Home. For example... Now I'm unsure... A better example, for example, French, I know that it's called Pays d'origine, which means something like country of origin. But when we talk about Heimat, we don't just mean the country of origin, but also, as we just discussed, other feelings. That we associate with it. Exactly right, because, for example, my country of origin is Germany. But I wouldn't say that every place in Germany is my Heimat. So of course, if I come from another country, from Czech Republic for example, to Germany, then of course first of all the country, no matter where I cross the border, then I have, no matter where I am in Germany, this feeling, I am back in my Heimat. But I haven't completely arrived yet, of course. So my Heimat, if I had to limit it to one place, or to a few places, then it would be where my family is, where I grew up, yes, where I always feel welcome and where I could always go, even if I might not have anyone left. But I could always go there and I would still find someone who would take me in, for example, and that would not be the case in, for example, Munich. So I don't know anyone there or no one who would trigger such feelings in me or take me in like that or something. So that would not be my Heimat. Bavaria, for example. But Saxony, that was also the first thing I said, right? Saxony? So that's going in the direction of Heimat. So my family is there. And then we are back to language. So I know that many people don't like the Saxon dialect, but I personally don't find it beautiful either, I have to say. But when I hear it, it simply triggers this feeling in me again. "Ah, this is someone who comes from where I come from too, and who understands me. Who knows me, so to speak. So even if he is a stranger, I haven't seen him in my life." So I would also say that it means that... So a part of your identity is also this dialect, this language. Yes, hundred percent, of course. And that means in reverse, to some extent, that without Heimat you have no identity, can you say that? Oh, that's very philosophical, yes, one could perhaps say that without Heimat you have no identity. Yes, why not? Or does everyone have a Heimat? That's what I haven't quite clarified for myself yet. Does everyone have a Heimat, just because they come from somewhere, just because they were born somewhere? Or are there people who perhaps have no Heimat in that sense? That's hard to answer, because I really think everyone defines it for themselves. There are certainly people who have no Heimat. Or there are also people... I have met people who say, I am rather not Czech or German or something like that. I am simply a resident of the world or a resident of the Earth. So something like that can also be a conception. I met someone here in Czech Republic who said that. It's like a globetrotter who likes to travel and also with a sleeping bag and tent. Yes, he just flies to some distant countries really far away and is not interested in hotels or anything like that, but he wants to get to know the people there. And is not necessarily rich and then sometimes really sleeps in the forest, somewhere or in the car or wherever, how he moves around. Exactly. And then I asked him, do you feel at home anywhere? Do you have any feeling of Heimat? Do you know that? Then he said, well, Heimat for me is actually the whole world. So he feels at home everywhere. Nice if that's the case. So I like that. But I can't imagine for myself personally that I will ever see it that way. So I am also incredibly... so I love to travel. I love to go into foreign cultures, to get to know people, to speak the languages, etc. That has all become an incredibly important part of my life for me. But nevertheless, I always associate the concept of Heimat with the original, so where I really come from. So for me, Heimat is primarily place-bound. Of course, other factors also play a role. So, for me, Heimat means the region in Northeast Germany, on the coast, on the Baltic Sea. Heimat means a lot of family for me. I don't know what it would be like if my family didn't live here, but I think I would still call it my Heimat because so much here has shaped my identity so incredibly. So the simplest example again, the football club Hansa Rostock is an important part of my identity. And for me, that's a big part of Heimat. Yes, exactly. It's the same for me. The term is simply incredibly difficult to grasp, I think. So even for us Germans. So we all associate something with it. Everyone has their own definition of it. But you can't explain it in one sentence, perhaps. So for me, it's similar to you. So I associate it with the region of Saxony, perhaps. But I wouldn't just say Dresden, I would perhaps go with Saxony. Yes, my mother also lived in Leipzig for a long time. Maybe that's why. So then I also have there, somehow... so if I were in Leipzig now, I would also have that feeling of feeling at home, feeling comfortable, even though I don't actually live there or have never lived there for a long time myself. But then I see things there or as it is with you with Hansa Rostock, for me, I'm a tram fan. I'm interested in trams and so on. Yes, I saw that on Instagram. Exactly. And when I just see a Dresden tram, I'm like, that's like you with the football club. I have so many memories with these trams. Simply because they are from Dresden. So I don't have that same feeling when I see a tram in Rostock. I find them interesting too, of course. It's also part of my hobby. But I have nothing connected with the Rostock tram in that sense. But with the Dresden tram, yes. I took photos there. As a little boy, I rode back and forth to the end stations and things like that. I don't have such memories in Rostock, of course. So all of that plays a role. And but also my family and the language. These are all things that play a role. But I think, mainly, these are also things that you can see. So the place. So I agree with you a hundred percent on everything. It's hard to grasp somehow, but... So to clearly define what it actually is. But I think the people who are listening to this now and perhaps... either the term exists in their respective mother tongues. So then they understand it, probably they can relate to it very well. And will be able to confirm that it's not easy to say what exactly it is. Or the term doesn't exist. Or there's only something like in French, something like country of origin. But that's not, country of origin is not exactly what Heimat is for me, just my country of origin. The last topic I would perhaps like to address again: I think the concept of Heimat is also sometimes a bit negatively charged. A bit politically charged. For example, when I think about it, I always have the feeling, the more, well, how should I put it? There are regions where the concept of Heimat really goes in a direction where this local patriotism is also very strong. So I think, for example, that especially in the East German federal states or in some regions, this topic of local patriotism is very strong. There is a lot of talk about "we" and "you" and less about "us". That's my impression. And people who see it that way often try to highlight their Heimat and the value and importance of their Heimat as place-bound. Do you understand what I mean? So you mean that it also goes in the national direction, perhaps? Exactly. A little bit. And what is your impression? So is love of Heimat perhaps a bit like the precursor to patriotism? Can you say that? Or what are your observations? For some people, perhaps. Some would also feel threatened by migrants, for example. Yes, and would say: "No, they don't belong here. They should stay in their Heimat. This is our Heimat and my Heimat has nothing to do with migrants," or something like that. But there are always such stupid people. So I wouldn't say that's the norm, and I wouldn't say that's the precursor to patriotism, because... That was a provocative thesis. Yes, very provocative. I wouldn't say that, I don't think I'm an exception if I were to ask around in my family, for example, or in my circle of friends, how they define Heimat. I think no one would say "where only Germans are" or "where only our old traditions are maintained" and "foreign things have no place there" or something like that. So no one would say that. I think they would all say something similar to me. Many would primarily associate it with the place, and then other factors would play a role, such as family and possibly language. Although language, I think, I wasn't aware of that before. When I still lived in Germany, if you had asked me then, I might not have said "language". I've only become aware of that now because, since I leave the house here, I of course don't hear German. That's clear. Of course, there's someone who speaks German, but everything else you normally hear here is Czech. That's not what touches my heart, so to speak. Czech. I know the language, I like the language, but it doesn't touch my heart. But when I hear someone speaking German, I immediately feel... yes, then I have that feeling of Heimat. I don't know him at all. But just by hearing it, I have that feeling "Ah, someone from us" or something like that. And that's the perfect example that Heimat, that the concept of Heimat is not place-bound, because you can drive from Czech Republic to Bavaria, to a region you don't come from. Nevertheless, he speaks German and you have that feeling of Heimat, yes? Exactly right! Or I'm even here and I just hear someone speaking German here. And I can also have that feeling of Heimat here. Very good, exactly so. So I hope it has become a bit clearer now what Heimat means. You notice, we ourselves haven't fully grasped it yet. But we both have our ideas about it, just as every person probably has their own ideas about it. Or every German. And it is definitely a very exciting topic, where we could probably philosophize for hours. But I think we'll leave it at that for today. Please let us know if you liked it too. If. If you liked it, we would be happy about good ratings.