Why Logical Thinking is Illogical - Rory Sutherland

People talking is an art form or medium which is probably quarter a million years old or half a million years old in evolutionary terms, okay? Whereas everything else is 5,000 years or less, yeah? I mean, I don't even know if the Egyptians had drama. I'm guessing they might have done, yeah, okay. But you know, I don't know what the plays would have been about. But um, uh, but I mean, writing's what, 4,000, 5,000, 6,000 years old max, isn't it? M. The only two things that are really, really old, conversation and dogs, are the two things that are really old, yeah.

My, my theory is about podcasting that, well, famously, I think, um, Socrates never wanted to write anything down. And part of the reason for that, it might be apocryphal, is that if you write something down, you don't have to remember it. It's like, you don't, you, you sort of, you, you should be practicing this, or my university policy for not taking notes, but it didn't really work in my case, yeah. Well, well, also, there's a sense in which the way philosophy is supposed to be done is through conversation, yes. And so when you write down philosophy, what you're actually creating is this simulacrum of the ideal way of doing philosophy, which is through conversation. So, you know, Socrates or Plato writing a book about philosophy is the wrong way to do it, isn't it? Because, you know, where you're going when you start. Bloody hell. I think that's why so many philosophies are done in the style of of dialogues. That is like, you know, said that same thing. The dialectic is the, is similar, isn't it? Well, well, you have, I mean, literal dialogues between characters. So like the Platonic dialogues, Galileo, right, writes dialogues, human rights dialogues. And he invents these characters in order to make a philosophical point. Because instead of just saying, here's my viewpoint, here's my philosophical worldview, they say, we're going to do this through conversation. Because the best way to do philosophy is one person says something, another person asks a question and clarifies, and they debate. And so Plato is probably thinking to himself, you know, as is Hume, as is Galileo, thinking to themselves, gosh, if only there were a way, you know, to capture, brast, the actual conversation. Brilliant, fantastic. Yes, yes, yes. And so, which I've got to write it down like a script, exactly. And so Plato made that [ __ ] up, didn't he? I think I'm right to say those conversations, a lot of it was, yeah, those conversations probably didn't happen. But the funny thing is that like, a lot of people say, you know, oh, you know, I used to read so much philosophy. I, but now I never read. Cuz because I'm, I'm too busy listening to podcasts and stuff. And I'm like, well, hold on, what you're doing, you're trading the simulacrum for the thing that's for, for like, how it's supposed to be, you know?

This is fascinating. Fun, fun enough, it's arisen as an interesting question. We are rolling, right? Are we rolling? Oh, see you later. Thanks. Thanks for the help today. Fascinatingly, this has arisen as a question, uh, in terms of the AI, yeah? AI use in market research, which is, do you write down a load of questions and ask the respon, respondent, which is what tends to happen in market research now, where effectively the questions reflect a preconception of what you think is important? But with AI market researchers, you will take it as a conversation where it goes wherever it goesh. And so there's this whole sort of area which basically says, the great advantage of this is we can actually start an inquiry without preconceptions as to the, as to the end point, yeah? But that, that in many ways is what philosophy is supposed to be. And so when you read these, these dialogues, I think what people are trying to do is recreate that element of discovery and, uh, trial and error in terms of your ideas, which is necessary to the philosophical process. And given that, when somebody does say to me, well, I don't, I don't read anymore, you know, I wish I was smart and I read books, but instead, I just spend all of my time listening to podcasts. I'm thinking, well, if you're doing philosophy, if what you're listening to, and that's effectively what Plato was sort of doing, the, like, imagine if somebody like took a conversation that somebody had on their podcast, an episode of Joe Rogan, and they transcribed it. But maybe they had to do it from memory, and maybe they slightly adapted, yeah, to make it a little bit, maybe, maybe a little bit more streamlined, but also maybe to sort of make their point a bit more strongly. Even if the person who wrote this, even if it was Joe Rogan himself, remembering the conversation, writing down roughly what happened, you'd probably still rather listen to the original conversation, right? You'd probably rather, if that were available, yeah? Definitely, yeah.

And so, actually, you'd rather watch it because there are more, you know, there are questions like, you know, um, I mean, what, what I tend to do when I watch podcasts on YouTube, and it's partly because my TV is connected to the best sound system I've got, but, um, what's quite good about it is you can kind of get on with something else. In other words, it doesn't demand your full attention, okay? It's rather, my, my joke about, you know, in fairness to, you know, to tea, coffee, and tobacco, they're three drugs you can consume while performing other useful functions, okay? Which isn't generally true of like acid or something. Um, and the, the radio is the medium of the industrious because you can listen to the radio while getting on with something else, you see what I mean? And actually, video podcasting generally, you like the scene setting, and you also glance up every now and then, but it doesn't demand your undivided attention in the way that a television program would. That's probably right. I do take it as a compliment when somebody says, you know, Alex, this was one of those episodes where I actually had to sort of sit and listen. I couldn't be like, doing the washing up, because you sort of have to go back and, and I suppose that probably hurts our, hurts our watch time a little bit, because a lot of these things are, are deep dives that really do require that, that, that focus. Um, I was kind of ahead of the curve on the, you know, the, the TikTok, YouTube Shorts, Instagram thing where they'll have the video, and then underneath they'll have the video game footage of Subway Surfers or whatever to like, keep people's attention. I was ahead of the curve on this because I used to listen to podcasts and debates, but because, you know, I'm just watching people debate on a screen, I would play some mindless video game, Skate 3, Grand Theft Auto, where I could just sort of like, mindlessly keep my eyes in a flow state. Keep your eyes, yeah. And so I, when I started seeing this, this kids do this thing, and more and more people actually do this thing of watching TV with the subtitles on, which is kind of interesting, yeah.

Um, I think that's got a lot to do with the fact that I, I've seen, uh, a few people make this, there's a video I saw on YouTube about this, about how as microphone technology gets better, performances get worse or like, less clear. That is like, there was a time when if you were on television, you had to talk like this to the camera, make sure that it's a bit like theater, you face the audience, you're very clear. But when microphones got good enough to pick up everything you're saying, suddenly you can, well, you can, you can make a, make a point like this, and, and, and it actually makes it more difficult to hear. And so people now have to use sub. So just as you had this change in music where the crooner, people like Al Jolson or Sinatra were made possible by microphone technology, you basically couldn't sing like, I mean, yes, you know, in opera, obviously, okay. It's very much the opposite of cringe, which is highly intimate, yes. And you now have this unfortunate thing where there's a kind of verit, just in in cinema, in both lighting design and in sound recording, where to be h, be honest, you can't hear what the [ __ ] are saying half the time, you know? I mean, you do notice when you watch Gary Oldman, that clearly, you know, what, what, whatever else you think, there's no problem understanding what he's saying, yeah, yeah. And you do, Tom Hardy is famously a mumbler, isn't he? They're various actors who, uh, yeah. But this is the strange paradox of, as the technology gets better, the delivery gets worse. Delivery gets worse because it doesn't need to be good anymore. And, and there, there, I mean, that's great because those performances of a time gone by were much clearer, and, you know, my grandparents can hear them on the TV without having to to turn it up too loud. But at the same time, it's not as a sort of realistic a performance. You don't really like believe you're in that world with the characters. And so I suppose if you're a news reader, how realistic is that anyway? So there is an argument for the sort of Alistair Cooke, absolute clarity of speech for things like news reading, because that isn't a natural, that's, that's not, you know, that's effectively a sort of proclamation of things. Yeah. But you're right about conversation, that picking up the nuances and the, you know, and actually keeping in the ums, isn't necessarily.

I mean, there's a whole interesting question about what, because I, I'm not sure about this, if you have an AI agent, do you actually want it to mimic a h, a full screen human being, um, or at least all the time? And there are a lot of people now talking about what you might call multimodal, uh, interfaces where you go, I'm interested in staying in a hotel in Fuerteventura. Can you show me a few that you think I might like? And so, because, I mean, the mistake that Alexa made, I mean, Amazon spent effectively, you know, several billion dollars developing Alexa with the idea that it would become a channel for the ordering of goods and services in the absence of a video component. Now, in the event, if that's all it becomes, it would have been cheaper for them to give everybody an egg timer and a barometer, because 90% of the questions are, what time is it? Set an alarm. And what's the weather like today? Yeah. Um, and I, there's, there's an interesting question, which is, you know, effectively, what interface is, is, is optimal for performing various tasks? MH. My hunch is that Google must be bricking it, because the threat to Google is really an interface shift, isn't it? Yes. The big threat to Google, to kill the sort of habituation of use and so forth, is that people say they'd rather talk than type. Yeah. I mean, that's a kind of, you know, that's a kind of potentially existential threat. Yeah. And, and how these AI chatbots are kind of like a new kind of search engine, because instead of searching this index of websites, they're searching through their training data, and then searching through the websites as well, at the same time.

I've got a really weird idea for a new business using AI, which is actually where you pay. If you think about it, okay? Let's say you're really into kite surfing and you want to live somewhere windy, okay? Now, if you've got a hundred people paying you a hundred a month, okay? That's a stack of a lot of money. I mean, particularly if you can live anywhere you like. Oh, yeah. Right. Now, if you have an, if you have a PA on the end of a phone or the end of a Zoom call, okay? Even better, who is just very, very good at using the various different AI opportunities out there, you could hire that person as your info butler. And it might make more sense to employ a human who's particularly adept at that, okay, than it is to actually use the technology yourself, however good that technology may be. Sure. So the question is, you know, do I really want to spend the last sort of few decades of my life as a typist or talking to machines? Or could you argue that you could create an Uber Jeeves out of a human being who had no requirement to be physically present, but with whom you'd interact for, you know, 20 minutes, a few times a week? And you'd effectively say, okay, I need you to sort out this thing with my bank account. I need you to talk to so and so, so and so. You could text them, you could use any, any medium of exchange you liked. You'd have an occasional Zoom call. They'd come up with suggestions for your hotel in Fuerteventura, okay? I mean, wouldn't it make more sense? Because this is to the chess, isn't it? That the best chess player is a human plus a machine. Well, if this is really that powerful, why do we want to skimp on the human component if it's really that potent? Because I don't need this guy 100% of the time, or woman indeed, me, okay? Not, not not presupposing. You probably need that person for, you know, I don't know, 20 minutes a day, right? Okay. Now, with 20 minutes a day, you know, uh, you know, they could get on with their life quite a lot of time. They could service a hell of a lot of people that way. They'd also learn from the other people they looked after, who might be people like me. So what I'm saying is, do, do we actually use this to bring back domestic service as a really lucrative form of employment? Sorry, I've got it. Because in a sense, is it, is it, is it the best use of my time when I could be sitting on podcasts or whatever, to actually be there endlessly having to master improvements to that technology? Or do we borrow a bit from Adam Smith and go, look, there's a bit of division of labor here. Might be quite helpful. And that being an AI expert on behalf of a hundred human beings, it's like an AI middleman. Yeah. Someone who's just very good at using the tech. Infomediary, I think was once the phrase they kind of used. You could also then, as an AI company, start developing AI tools which are designed to not be sort of this really great public-facing, anyone can use this and get. They could be hardcore. Yeah. Like, you've got to know the keywords. You've got to know the, the commands. But once you do, once you learn that language, this AI tool is like, in the 1970s, for whatever reason, I mean, this is, I'm old enough to remember this, it was slightly, um, demeaning to be seen typing, right? You had a typist to do that, okay? Now, just as Simon Cowell does not have a mobile phone, okay? He has people to do. My argument is that we have a weird tech fetish around the optimization of efficiency, which basically means the elimination of humanity from every process, because the biggest cost is the wage cost. Yes. But just as a hydraulic, okay, let's say a JCB made a navvy a 100 times more productive, but you still had the navvy. The assumption of the tech world is that you always eliminate the human and the wage cost from everything, and you disintermediate everything. And of course, there's a huge assumption in economics is that disintermediation is a wonderful thing. I would argue we will still have estate agents in a 100 years' time, because ultimately, I want a transaction of that scale to be mediated by a human being. Now, I'll give you an example of that. I was a campaigner, uh, for maintaining manned ticket offices at railway stations, because my argument is there are certain functions I want performed by a machine, which is, I know exactly the ticket I want, and I simply want to buy it with a contactless credit card. But there are, there are people, and there are occasions, who don't want that. Either they're elderly people who want a human being to say, no, no, dear, you need the off-peak return. And there are also unusual journeys where I need a human being whom I can trust to say, actually, make what I'll do, and the machine will never do this, okay? Yeah. Um, look, I'll sell you the, um, the peak single to Dover, and then you can get an off-peak return back from, do, because it's nine quid cheaper. And that gives me the confidence to know that the ticket I'm buying is not stupid. The machines are getting better at doing this. Well, there's no incentive to make them better. Well, that, that's the thing. There's only the decency of the human being. Well, the, yeah, but then I wonder if, like, for example, you know, like split ticketing, you can get them on trains. That's true. Those are done, not by the railway companies, unsurprisingly, they're done by Trainline. Trainline, who will, who will, who will promote a split tick. Yeah. And I guess, I guess that's sort of an intermediary machine.

But I mean, you, you talked in, um, in your book, in, in Alchemy, about, uh, the, the maps problem, like Google Maps. And I, I resonate with this so much. The idea that, like, and the way you talk about it is, say you want to get from A to B, you can, you can look at how long it takes to drive. You can change it to the public transport mode, and it'll show you how to get there in public transport. The problem is that you don't always not want to drive because you don't have a car. Sometimes, I see what you mean. Sometimes the reason that you don't want to drive is just because, you know, it's, it's a, it's a more convoluted journey or a less reliable journey. So maybe you want to drive to the train station and then get the train. But if I look on Google Maps, oh, no, no. Google's very bad at that because they don't. The assumption that Google, and now, fly enough, let me get this right, I think it may be, is it Nicholas C's sister? Um, it's somebody like that, might be Nick C's sister, who's involved in a campaign to make Google Maps much more public transport friendly. Because the American assumption is, if you're using public transportation, it's because you don't have a car. Yeah. So they then assume you're taking a bus to the station, and you're walking to the bus. The very British practice of driving to a railway station. Actually, New Yorkers would do this. Connecticut residents would do it more accurately, to get to New York. But in Los Angeles, the only reason you're taking public transport is because you don't have a car. Mmm. Um, and Google is very Californian in that assumption. I think that's absolutely true. And it's repeatedly annoyed me because it gives ludicrously, um, pessimistic assumptions of how long the journey would take on public transport, because it assumes I'm making no use of a, of a car to get to the station, and no use of a taxi at the other end. So it basically assumes this bated idea of, you're either basically a car, car owner, in which case you go everywhere by car, or you're effectively at the mercy of public transportation for the entire length of your journey. It is really annoying. Like, if the two of us wanted to go to Cambridge right now, Cambridge city center, and we looked on Google Maps, it would either tell us it's a, whatever, how long it takes to drive to, to, you know, St. John's College, or if we say, well, I want to take the train, we click public transport, and what does it tell us? It tells us, well, you have to get to this station, get a bus here, get to the train station, then once you get to Cambridge, you have to get out, and you have to get this bus, which is going to take you up, and then you walk 15 minutes. Which is, of course, both of those options are total bollocks. In the first option, you'll get stuck in traffic in London for ages. And when you leave the station at Cambridge, you're going to get a taxi. By the way, I, I give all your, all your listeners a great tip here, which is that, uh, rail, uh, algorithms when they recommend trains, sometimes overweight the importance of journey time. So if ever you're going down to the West Country, if you're going to Plymouth or Cornwall, okay? What you have to do is you go in, search for a journey starting at Waterloo, not Paddington. And you have to add via Salisbury. Now, Southwestern trains have these trains that go from Waterloo all the way to Exeter and David's. At which point you can then change onto a train going further west. Because they're a bit slow, they never feature on the website. Because they never feature on the website, they're absurdly cheap. You can actually get a kind of first-class single to Exeter and David's, Waterloo, and it's highly scenic because you go through some pretty lovely English countryside. Pack a hamper. I'm not sure what the onboard catering is like. Um, but, um, uh, I've, I've literally, I think my daughter's had to come back from a music festival in, was it, Boardmasters? You young people understand. Don't ask me. No, no, okay. Boardmasters. Okay. Camera people know. Excellent. Okay. And the, the trains were absolutely rammed. And I, I think I got, she and her four friends came back first class in Exeter for like 35 quid each. It's absolutely bonkers. And of course, living in Sevenoaks as I do, Waterloo and Waterloo East is a lot easier than getting to Paddington. So there's a double win. Um, but that's one of those cases where it's, I think it's called the alignment problem, isn't it? The algorithm doesn't really know what you're trying to do. This is why I'm questioning whether we need human intermediaries. Because a really good human, backed with an AI, is going to be such a potent aid to your life, okay, that actually the money you spend on the human, which is perfectly enough to support that human in employment, is worth it simply for the fact that you don't have to master all these goddamn interfaces. Yeah.

Now, you'd have to, the second thing is, your, your specialism is the value of religion. You're a bit of a fan of the Quakers? My, my view is what the country needs is a Quaker revival. Um, the trouble with the Quakers, they're not very good at marketing, to be absolutely honest, okay? They've never, never managed to really break through. Sure. But the thing that always fascinates me about Quakerism is their extraordinary success in business. In that, you know, it's a tiny population which gave rise to Cadbury, to Rowntree, to Barclays Bank, to Lloyds Bank. One of the founders of Sony was a Quaker. Ironically, the Quaker Oats company are not Quakers. They chose the Quaker as an image because of its, um, associations of complete trustworthiness. And they have this principle in Quakerism that your word is your bond. There's no need to to swear oaths or, um, I think there's actually an exception for Quakers if you have to testify in court, because you object to testifying on the Bible, because you say, everything I say has the force of truth. Now, what it meant was that Quaker business didn't really require any lawyers or any of these tedious trust-grating intermediaries, because you'd basically go and say, I'd like to buy your chocolate factory. How much are you willing to pay? 20,000 guineas. Done. And that was it. The whole thing was done. Okay. So it was an extraordinarily efficient form of capitalism. And it also helped that they weren't allowed to go to university for a time, so they actually had to go and do something useful instead. Um, because you had to be an Anglican, I think, to go to Oxford or Cambridge, which were the only two universities, right? So they were kind of forced into business, however intelligent they were, because they were, you know, they, they couldn't go into, they couldn't get sidetracked, uh, into a university. But it struck me that actually, you know, if you have a very trustworthy human being with whom you have a repeated relationship, okay, so that they're actually optimizing for long-term value, not short-term transactional value, that person has a huge value in helping you navigate the digital world, which is, after all, optimized for, well, it's actually it's calibrated for very low levels of trust.

So do you still need humans and concepts like shame or even fear of divine retribution as part of this system? Well, we could potentially build in fear of divine retribution to to an AI system. You know, once, um, once it develops so much that we start questioning whether it might be conscious, why don't we just sort of build into its into its interface belief in the existence of God and shame and shame and eternal afterlife? It's possible. I mean, I, I get the feeling that the technology just isn't good enough yet. And and that what you're identifying as a, well, this just isn't what machines do. Machines don't think in this way. I think that's a problem that can be solved. For example, the earliest chess computers were pretty good at chess, and people were impressed. They think, wow, you know, I can play a game of chess against a computer, and it puts, you know, it gives me a run for my money. But they say, but the reason why a chess computer is never going to beat a human is because chess computers don't have the creativity that's necessary for. Because you can tell a chess machine, you know, never lose your queen. The chess for doesn't understand is that there are some instances where sacrificing your queen is the right thing to do. But of course, saying that now seems silly, because of course you can eventually teach a, again, you don't teach creativity per se, but you teach it a better. Unless you define creativity as highly, unless you define creativity as highly refined pattern recognition, yeah? Fine. In which case, which a lot of creativity is, then then I guess you are teaching it creativity. But but whatever you call it, the, the computer learns to do the, the thing which previously it was thought computers just don't do that, because they just become better at approximating what you really want. And so I can imagine a machine that can, you, you know, can can recognize when somebody is is struggling to to type and maybe switches it from ABC to QWERTY or vice versa. And somebody, you know, who is obviously trying. I mean, a computer could be clever enough to work out that when someone's clicked on Liverpool Street Station, they were actually trying to go to Liverpool Lime Street, and like put up a, this kind of like, you know, that kind of thing that usually would require the human to go, oh, well, actually, you should probably just get this one. And, you know, what technically, if you buy this ticket, they'll let you on that train. It's the kind of thing that as long as companies allow this technology to develop, there's no reason a computer can't do that. The only thing is that the codification of everything, uh, in real life manifests itself as bureaucracy after time. Sure. And understanding things like the benefit of the doubt and wiggle room and defaulting to trust. Okay. I'm just, I'm just wondering whether, you know, actually an, it isn't more economically efficient to have an info Quaker who is entirely trustworthy and to whom I pay, uh, you know, a reasonable monthly salary for performing. It might just be easier than me having to master yet another bastard interface. I, yeah.

I was on a train once, and there was a woman opposite me who spoke not a word of English. And she just started, I mean, she was talking quite loudly into her phone. And I was, God's sake, I'm trying. And then she just started crying. She like burst into tears. And it's because she'd meant to get on this train that was supposed to be like a 5, 10 minute journey to the next station, and was finding a way going somewhere into the north of England. And she couldn't even speak English. So after a bunch of translations, just just sort of, you know, I was like, oh, you use the phone to translate. I use my phone to translate. So, so technology, great. And all, you're an Android user then, are you? No, no. I was on, you know, Google Translate on my phone, whatever. And it was very funny because she would speak into her phone and report back to me, just to say, sort of like, thank you, or yes. And I think she was sort of trying to be nice to me. But there was something lost in translation. So she sort of come back like, thank you, handsome man. And, and, and stuff like this. It was, it was. Could have been sincere. Do yourself down there. Could have been. I just don't think you would, you would quite put it in those terms. Um, or maybe, maybe it's just the kind of, kind of woman she was. I don't know. But at any rate, this whole saga ends with, you know, the, the train worker coming over, and me explaining what had happened, what I'd garnered. She'd gone on the wrong train. She needs to get off at. You can imagine trying to explain to someone who doesn't speak English, you need to get off at this train, you need to transfer to this platform, whatever. But it ended with the, with the, with the train operator, because she didn't have the ticket, right? She, she had the ticket for this train journey, and she was supposed to go all this convoluted route. And the train operator took, like, you know, her ticket or whatever, and just wrote on the back of it with a pen, you know, this woman's trying to get here, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, greet her and arrive, exactly. And sort of wrote out, and, and, and like, that does make me think, even if a computer could do that, it's not the kind of thing you could formalize. We program not to do it, because the benefit of the doubt would show up as a loss financially. Ex, yes. Um, and secondly, it would be vulnerable to fraud. So the first thing to be closed down is the benefit of the doubt. I mean, look, and it's possible that this woman was actually defrauding us all the time. But, but I imagine that she wasn't. And the reason that I know that is because I'm a human being who was looking at another human being, right? And I do wonder if, if a computer will ever be capable of capturing that kind of interaction. You know, it's, it's, it's kind of hard to say, because what computers don't, what computers do is just, well, the, the thing that you condemn so much in a lot of human interactions, which is this sort of hyper-rationality. This is now you're on a podcast right now called Within Reason. That's the name of this podcast. We like to celebrate the. I'll leave right now. I'll get Cod. We, well, it would, it would be the first time that's happened on this podcast. Believe you mean me. Um, although usually a bit less politely that's happened in the past. Um, I think, did that happen with, um, uh, what's his name? Didn't it? Out. Yeah, you know, it's slipping my mind. Um, yeah, a certain Mr. Hitchens. I won't tell you which one. I remember. Um, yeah, he did, he did decide to to stand up and to stand up and leave. So, as I say, you wouldn't be the first. Um, but I'd like to see if you could match the entertainment. Hissy fit was about entirely, to be honest. Neither am I. I think it might have something to do with being with drugs. Well, I, I was talking to him for, for like 40 minutes, interviewing him about his drug decriminalization policy, you know, the one that he, um, wrote a book about. To which he told me that I'd been banging on about it for too long, and that he was sick to death of the subject, and to the of those who who promoted. And, um, and got up to leave. But not before spending 17 minutes at the door, telling me how much he personally disliked me. Yeah. I did actually see him again last night. It was the first time we've been in a room together. Um, I didn't speak to him. He was doing this, doing this event. It was like, it was like an election debate. So he was representing the Conservative Party, and there were a few other people, and there was a Q&A. It was quite an intimate audience. There was a Q&A after. Surprise, Hitchens believes the Conservative Party is a Conservative Party. Well, he doesn't. He thinks that the Conservative Party deserves to be destroyed. But he's so fearful of Labour that he was telling people to to vote Conservative anyway. So he was doing this sort of intriguingly. Of course, our first-past-the-post system allows you to correct against over large majorities. So my argument would be, if you're in a safe Conservative or Lib Dem seat, regardless of your proclivities, it is actually in the interest of the Labour Party for you to vote Conservative. The argument being that if you had a huge Labour majority, it would implode, serve only one term, and then you'd be effectively back to where you were when you started. Yes. Um, that there is actually a serious problem about that, because of the ferous nature of left-wing politics, people would get preoccupied with a lot of sort of single-issue, um, obsessions. And the whole thing would go D. Which tends to happen. Well, there are ways to to sort of think about in principle how you might hack the system when it comes to voting. I'm actually interested in your philosophy of voting, because as somebody who thinks outside of the box about unintuitive solutions to problems, and how to solve this problem, you might not realize that, you know, the way to sell more products might be to put the price up rather than taking it down, this kind of thing. When it comes to voting, a lot of people have these ideas about how, well, you know, unintuitively, if, if you, you know, don't like the Conservative Party, if you're some left-winger who wants to see the Conservative Party destroyed, you might best vote Reform UK in this election, because that's going to take votes, you know, that's that's going to sort of make it more difficult for the Conservative Party if Labour are going to win anyway. Like, there is a substantial, um, uh, right-wing, uh, body of opinion in the UK, which has always found an outlet through the Conservative Party, which has for the most part been comparatively reasonable, okay, by continental standards. Um, I think that might be a, be careful what you wish for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, well, well, I, I'm sort of seeing the, the, a way to sort of destroy the Conservative Party, not by voting for Labour, sort of weird ways of thinking about voting. I mean, like, when, when you see people going to the polls and and voting, what do you think they should be having in mind? There's an advantage to a first-past-the-post electoral system, which is that you get a fairly reliable purge every now and then. Also true in the United States, okay? So you, you do undoubtedly get the problem. And interestingly, the Greeks have a system which is quite clever, which is that the largest party, it's proportional representation, but the largest party gets this kind of bonus of seats, which increases the chance of a majority. They did invent democracy, so I think we ought to give them some credit, okay? Um, and it gives them a kind of bonus which makes a, which makes a majority more likely. So you have a functioning government. But at the same time, you still have this power effectively to reboot, you know, do a hard reset on your politics when any particular party has been in power for too long. It's probably pretty good to have a purgative function. There's also the question of direct representation, which is, there is a person who represents me, you know, there's proper accountability, which you don't have if you have party lists, you know, you have no particular control over getting an individual scoundrel, uh, out of the system, yeah? Sure. So I mean, there are chess fences, I think, in, um, in the first part of the post system. It's, it, whether it works well or badly, of course, depends on the particular breakdown of opinion, um, uh, you know, at any given time. I would also argue that I think, um, voting for reality TV programs and Got Talent and Eurovision and everything else has, um, slightly changed the nature of how people exercise a vote, in that they're more likely to do it for symbolic reasons, you know, or for reasons of identity or statement, for performative reasons, than for actually instrumental reasons. Yes. Yeah. Well, that's, I know. I think we have seen an element of that. That's what I'm interested in, in your views on when it comes to voting. We've got an election in this country next week, yeah? And when you go to the polls, if you go to the polls, I don't know if you're a voter, um, you know, are you thinking, like, I'm going to vote as somebody who, like, knows how how crowds work and operate, how, uh, public opinion and purchasing decisions can affect company outcomes? When it comes to voting, are you thinking, I'm just going to vote for the party I want to win? Are you voting against the party you don't want to lose? Are you tactical? You could tactically vote to say, I live in Sevenoaks, which is a fairly safe Conservative seat, and I could, I'm not sure whether I will make the not unreasonable decision that if Sevenoaks is not a Conservative constituency, that means that you would have a Conservative Party of kind of 38 or 47 people, something of that kind. Um, uh, uh, there's not much chance, there's not much liberal democracy in Kent. The Lib Dems have never actually made much headway in most, most of Kent, in local government, they have, but in parliamentary constituencies, not much. Um, and I could make a perfectly reasonable decision to say, there needs to be some sort of competent opposition, and and vote Conservative with a, you know, with a pinching my nose. I haven't ruled that out, yeah. Um, as a perfectly, and, and that is of course, using the electoral system to some extent. That's one thing you don't have in proportional representation to quite the same extent, which is the freedom to say, I want, you know, I wouldn't particularly mind a Labour majority, but a very large one, bear in mind, of course, you also get the problem that you then get a huge number of members of the parliamentary party who are have no ministerial role, so, and, and probably a huge number of them who have no prospect of it, yeah, which is, it's very good to have a reasonable number of those people, but a huge number of those people might make the whole thing unruly, yes. Yeah, yeah. I can, I can imagine. It's interesting what you're saying about representation. I had a friend recently who was wondering, and this person is a, is a right-winger. He wanted to vote for a right-wing party, but lives in a place where the Green Party actually has a pretty good shot of getting a seat. And he was like, well, I don't know what to do, because I think that all of their policies are like, total bunk. But because we live in a system where they can get lots of votes, but not get any seats, I feel a slight duty to vote for the Greens, even though I hate them, just because I value democracy so much that I think they deserve to be. But is it, is it perfect reason? I might do the same thing, in that there should be some green representation in Parliament. And so even if you totally dislike the party, even if you think it's like the worst thing in the world or whatever, you know, that there was still this incentive to potentially vote for them, just for the sake of democracy. You know, there should be some Reform representation in Parliament, by the way, because, I mean, it's, uh, you know, anything that has the support of 10 to 15% of the population deserves a few seats, deserves deserves a voice. Yes, undoubtedly. And I think, I think there should be some mechanism, uh, where that can work. And I'm, I'm very interested on the, on the Green question. I'm kind of conflicted, because I think that climate change is probably real, okay, and potentially catastrophic. But I also say that most of the actions that have been taken in pursuit of combating it may have been counterproductive or misdirected. What are your views on Just Stop Oil? Well, that, that will be an interesting question, which is a wider question on the possible, um, how would I say this? I think a large part of demonstration culture is counterproductive. MH. Okay. It's a bit like, you know, in other words, it, it makes you feel great, okay? But everybody else hates it. So the classic example of that was Neil Kinnock's, uh, right on the eve of the election in against John Major, '92, I guess it was, wasn't it? Okay? Um, if you're in the hall surrounded by Labour supporters, going, all right, makes you feel fantastic. Unfortunately, it's also broadcast on television, okay? And so there's a well-known phenomenon where it's sometimes called a purity spiral, where people in groups adopt more and more extreme positions and behaviors to signal their adherence to the group. In other words, it's not enough to be averagely concerned, uh, you have to go to more and more extreme behaviors to signal to your compadres that you really, really care about this stuff. And that leads to kind of, you know, what you might call, um, uh, runaway signaling. And the problem is that when those behaviors are observed by other people, um, uh, they tend to, um, uh, uh, they tend to actually be effectively more likely to set the cause back than to promote it. I mean, I mean, if you look at very successful movements, and there are a lot of them, by the way, we tend to forget the unsuccessful movements. I make that, there's massive survivorship bias in our belief in protests. You know, there would have been huge anti-Catholic protests in Britain in the early 19th century or the late 18th century, for example. There are lots of protests. I mean, CND went nowhere. If we were going to be out, you know, that that took up a lot of attention in my, maybe it should have gone somewhere, by the way. I mean, I think they had much better arguments than they had, um, PR advisers. Yeah. There's a wonderful thing in John O'Farrell's book, Things Can Only Get Better, where, uh, he made the point that, you know, what you would tend to have is, you tend to have a CND demonstration, and someone would be dressed, you know, dressed up in a sort of clown suit, appearing to fake a nuclear missile as some act of performative art. And John O'Farrell said, when Winston Churchill said that, you know, if Nazism should triumph, it would mean the end of Western civilization as we know it, it was not necessary for him to also dress up in a skeleton suit and fall to the ground at the end of the speech, okay? And so some of that stuff is actually deeply, by the way, there's a huge, the extent to which we give coverage to demonstrations, um, okay, is an extraordinary form of media bias. Because about, I would say 70% of the population, for various reasons, are incapable of participating in them. Okay? Either they don't live anywhere near London. I mean, the people of Liverpool would have to burn the city to the ground to get the same media attention as, you know, 50,000 Londoners breaking a few windows with, you know, five Sky News cameramen on convenient hand, okay? So it's massively biased towards London opinion. The whole business of giving coverage to demonstrations, it's much less meaningful than it used to be. Now, the police can't beat them up, okay? So when the police could actually beat up demonstrators before the age of the mobile phone cam, you could at least reasonably assume some degree of conviction on the part of people presenting. Whereas for all we know now, it's just effectively, it's Tinder for lefties, right? You know, okay? It's a way to meet a load of like-minded people and hang out. Yeah, okay. Um, but also, I mean, also if you're right of center, like me, we, if we're angry about something, we only have two modes of response. One of which is write to the Daily Telegraph, and the other one is buy an assault rifle. We, we don't have any middle ground, okay? Now, have half a joke, but there are a lot of people who find, massively unfair to introverts, the whole idea of a demonstration, okay? Right. I mean, okay.

I would find have you would you go to Glastonbury? I would find GL. There is no limit to how much I would pay not to go to the GL. And I had to learn this, that there are people who actually enjoy being in crowd situations, which I find totally incomprehensible. Okay, any kind of crowd. Now, I always make that point that yes, it means I miss out a lot of music festivals. On the upside, I wouldn't have gone to the Nuremberg rallies either. Yeah, I would even worried about the toilet facilities, regardless of the political, regardless of any political connotations. There's no way.

But also to me, genuinely, um, um, having someone shout at me with a megaphone and I shout the same thing back, okay, would make me physically sick, I think. Okay, just that action, that particular action of just having someone shout something, I shout the same thing back, just runs completely counter to every instinct I have. I would just find it a repellent activity. I, I couldn't do it for any cause, okay. It, it, it's just not in my DNA to do that. Now, I don't think, you know, I don't know if you're the same, whether you enjoy shouting things that someone has shouted at you. It, on the day, I think, okay, you have those moments. It depends on the time of day as well. Depends on my energy levels.

Interestingly, Jordan Peterson said once, uh, I'm not sure how true this is, but he said, you know, he gets protested his talks all the time. So he was sort of touring universities giving talks and he would get people sit outside, left-wing protesters, just screaming, trying to block entrances, all of this kind of stuff. And he made one change to, to the way that he conducted his talks, and the protest disappeared overnight. Gone. He started holding them in the morning. That is unbelievably perfect. And people couldn't be bothered to get out of bed.

Um, so I mean, that, that was his, well, that is proof of my theory that since the police are unable to actually practice indiscriminate violence, okay, the, the protest has lost some of its meaning. But it's become actually a form of entertainment for a particular kind of person. That's, yeah, I, I see what you're saying there. It's unrepresentative. I mean, okay, um, the fact that no, okay, let's be honest about this, there isn't a counterfactual because there was no Palestinian entry, uh, to Eurovision. But the fact that Israel headed the popular vote on the telephone, okay, with a not particularly brilliant song, okay, in the UK, France, Germany, etcetera, okay, right.

Okay, now, as I said, I'm being very honest here, there was the Palestinian entry. I'm sure if there were, that would have done very well too. So, but nonetheless, what I'm saying is our fetishization of protest and our fetishization of certain types of opinion, um, if you like, uh, strikes me as slightly weird, slightly weird facet of the modern world. Yeah. It's not as if you don't have social media for these people to vent, after all. I mean, it's a, you know, it's a peculiarly weird thing.

But when Jordan Peterson shifted his talks to the morning, basically the trouble dissipated. Nobody could be bothered. That's what he said, anyway. I mean, I mean, it might have been exaggerating and it might, I mean, there's sort of a joke in there, some never protest against anybody, least of all at a university. But I, the one thing I do worry about is that, um, you know, I'm, I'm basically on the far left of the outright in my politics, okay. And one of the, one of the reasons I stay there is that I notice that people who become invested in right-wing opinion are driven slightly insane, M, by the extent to which their whole identity of necessity because of the hostility they face.

So you could argue I'm simply ducking, you know, I'm actually chickening out at this point. But if your whole identity gets defined by responding to criticism and attack, okay, I, I, I just, it may be a highly principled act, but I don't think it's good for your quality of life. There are lots of things about life which are absolutely not remotely political. Okay. Sure. Uh, Dr. Johnson said, "Of all the things that human hearts endure, how small the part that Kings and laws can cure." I think that was Dr. Johnson, who was pretty much my, my kind of sanity touchstone on pretty much all matters, actually.

Um, and, um, uh, the point I'm making is that one of the things I noticed is there are certain people on Twitter. I'm totally happy to have people disagree with me on Twitter politically. M. When someone disagrees with you, go and look at their Twitter feed. First of all, if there is an insane volume of activity, by which I mean they've been on the platform for five years and they've tweeted 97,000 times, okay, they're bonkers. Okay. If you go back through their Twitter feed and it's all about politics, just block them and get rid of them. They have no future interest, okay. That, in other words, they're in the grip of a kind of mental, um, derangement. Right. If, in amongst the stuff about I, Rishi Sunak, there are a few pictures of their kittens or their children or whatever, something that's actually not political.

I mean, someone who, someone who ends up seeing life through an entirely political lens, which of course was always a disease of the left, you know, you literally had people who got up and said, you know, "How can I possibly enjoy eggs Benedict when something bad is happening?" Okay. And that used to be a little bit of a disease of the kind of hair-shirted left. But you can end up on this kind of, what you might call, the equivalent on the right. And my argument is, it's actually just as unhealthy. I want to hear what Jordan Peterson has to say about like maple syrup or something occasionally, right? I don't, you know, he's Canadian, he's probably highly expert. Apparently, the dark kind's much better than the light kinds, just for the tourists. But life is infinitely complex and interesting.

Politics is, by the way, actually, if you, if you strip out the identity component, local politics is probably more important than national politics. I love the point that Jess Phillips made, which is that every time there are local elections, people just go, um, "Oh, well, of course, it's just the local elections." To it's just, what do you mean, solving the problems that act people actually care about? Okay.

Um, but secondly, um, I mean, politics is has has become infected by effectively the need to win arguments rather than solve problems. And I would argue that the mental skills required to solve problems are actually very, very different than the mental problems required to win arguments. And dogma is an extraordinary kind of enemy of problem-solving. I think, I think that the Conservative Party and the political right made a massive mistake, um, allowing rather than using some neoliberal thought, which was probably pretty handy in 1979. Instead, they became entirely infected by economic neoliberalism, which, like all forms of economics, is utter bollocks, apart from the Austrians.

Um, and half se. But economics, an extraordinary ludicrous discipline, an attempt to kind of quantify and predict human behavior as though humans were kind of inert atoms, as if they were chess pie, chess pieces. Adam Smith warns against this precise thing. And what are they doing? They're doing exactly the thing that Adam Smith warned them against. Yeah, because Smith reminds us that it would be as if you were trying to organize chess pieces when each chess piece had its own individual will and its own individual and of attraction, repulsion from other chess people. It would just be, in other words, principles of, you know, it has principles and motivations all of its own. And this idea of the sort of being able to, you know, place pieces where you will, uh, you know, as if there were no forces in acting in between them, yeah, is a kind of nonsense. And he warned against that.

Now, you know, the right probably quite rightly took that as a completely useful, um, uh, warning against central command and control economies, quite rightly. That's possibly what he partly meant. Um, but it's also in a sense, a warning to economics that, you know, in other words, the man of system is the person he criticized, isn't it? That's right.

Um, and, and, um, I mean, this stuff is very interesting, but I mean, I, I think that I've got, I've got some, um, uh, Hindu friends who rather brilliantly always criticize Westerners, I think rightly, for what they call mono-theism. And he said, "Just because, just as we only have, we have to have one God, we also have to have one theory to explain everything." Okay. And one of them, um, um, a fantastic chap called Jug Bala, he points out that his mother goes to a temple in India and on the altar at the temple, there is an elephant, obviously not a real one, a monkey, and Jesus. Yeah. And she sees absolutely no problem, uh, with, uh, having all three. Whereas in the West, we're undoubtedly given to this idea that you have to have one in entirely explanatory, kind of Newtonian, um, uh, explanation of everything.

Okay. And I think, I think he's right. I think, I think he's got a point there that actually, I think, um, you know, what's interesting is there's an awful lot to learn from some slightly odd political movements like Georgism. Ustan school economics, the fringes of economics are more interesting than the mainstream, actually.

Um, an Italian socialist, I think this is a brilliant idea, who I, I genuinely think actually, it's fantastic. Okay. This is, okay. He believed that money should basically have an expiration date. So you should issue money, but to encourage people to spend it rather than hoarding it up, it would effectively run out. Yeah. So you'd encourage the rapid velocity and circulation of money. Now, what's interesting about that, of course, is marketers have already invented that with the, the voucher that you get at Sainsbury's that expires in two weeks' time. You know, in other words, "Get £5 off if you spend £60 at Sainsbury's, expires probably yesterday, knowing my luck." But, you know, what I mean? Okay. And the whole point of that is to encourage the velocity of expenditure. In regular Air Miles, you know, some airline loyalty programs are exactly what Hayek talked about when he talked about multiple currencies, and you can have different rules for the different currency.

But why is it good? Why is it good to to encourage people to to spend money quickly? Well, hold on a second. I'm not really a capitalist, I'm a consumerist. Um, and I would argue that one of the strangest things we do in politics, and this is, this comes from an assumption of neoliberal economics, okay, which is that everybody is a perfect utility optimizer. And there are lots of assumptions in economics which strike me as absolutely heinous. The other one is the single representative agent. In other words, you construct this kind of imaginary being who is kind of average of everybody in the model, you optimize for them, and you assume that what's optimal for the average is optimal for everybody. So you have a model which, for example, can't really clock inequality, for instance.

So I'm weirdly, although as I said, I'm on the political right, I'm, I'm very exercised by intergenerational inequality and the absurd distortions in wealth that have been created by the property market, where actually how wealthy you are, uh, is more a product of when you happen to buy a house, where you happen to live, than your contribution to, uh, any wider society. And so by putting in, it's completely arbitrary. It's, it's, it's like making the, it's like making the national lottery, the property market is like making the national lottery 50% of the economy. Okay. Yeah. It's whack.

I don't understand, by the way, you young people. Okay. Um, you're very weird because you're passionate about the NHS, despite the fact that you get almost no value from it in proportion to what you pay. There should be a waiting, that older people pay more tax than younger people because their healthcare costs are higher and they have more money. Okay. Is that, is that unreasonable? I mean, you know, you'll probably fall off your fixie once or twice and need to have a quick visit. You, you young people with your bloody photograph your genitals, you know, sorry. Okay. But I mean, you'll probably fall off your fixie once or twice. But actually, the value you get to the NHS, I mean, about 80% of it is probably within six weeks of your death. Okay. All right. Um, so you're basically happy to pay huge amounts of tax at a young age. That's true. Okay. This is the kind of idea that interests me.

Roger L. Martin, very good Canadian business guy, believes that instead of having a tax-free allowance every year, it should be weighted to the front of your life. So the first $100,000 Canadian dollars or first $200,000 Canadian dollars you earn in your life is tax-free, after which you start paying tax on everything. Not per year, not per year. It's just as soon. So if you got a job at Goldman Sachs, you'd have one Bonanza year, you earn 200,000 tax-free, and then you start paying tax. If you're earning $40,000 Canadian dollars a year, you get five years of tax-free earnings to effectively allow you to accumulate wealth early, which is when you need it.

I, I, I don't, the entire, the entire tax system seems to be Gant toile. Okay. I'm 58 and I get my financial advisor going, "Well, if you move this thing, if you basically, you can put some money into your pension, get the tax back, and then you can take it out again." You, that, that was great. But I said, "Where were all these tax breaks when I was 30, 35, had two kids, and I kind of needed the money?" Okay. It is absurd. So the fetish, I think it's simply a product of the fact that economists are stingy by temperament. MH. And they fetishize. Why is saving better than spending? It's just consumerism needlessly postponed.

Okay. Now, just to be clear about this, what we have done, I'm no, I'm not get saving, I'm, I'm being mischievous. Okay. But if you have a lot of wealth, it basically means you either don't need the money or lack the imagination to spend it. Okay. So taxing wealth, uh, seems healthier to me than taxing income. And Adam Smith broadly speaking believed the same thing. He was in favor of high inheritance taxes because he thought just inheriting a huge sum of money effectively made people lazy, and it was actually quite a good idea. He was also in favor of, uh, of taxing Grand rent. So he was effectively a Georgist. Okay.

The point, the point, one of the reasons this government, this whole election is so boring, okay, is the Overton window of discussion is now so small that none of the parties appears to be advancing anything that you might regard as surprising or interesting. They're tinkering with the same usual five levers. Okay. When what's needed is a bit of radical intervention in a few ways. I mean, taxing of wealth, which after all, since quantitative easing, a huge amount of this wealth has been earned, uh, in a way, way that's completely kind of undeserved. It's just asset value inflation. Okay.

Um, you, you know, I mean, it was absurd. I mean, what, you know, what you should have done with quantitative easing is followed that Italian socialist and given people a load of money which they had to spend really fast. All right. But then presumably, a load of money that you spend really fast, you buy a house, that house is still going to increase in value, you're still going to have wealth tied up in assets. It's a terrible way in which people acquire assets though, because logically speaking, what they should do when they retire is sell their house, cash in, yeah. And downsize. If people did that, the problem wouldn't really be there. They don't. I, I don't understand. I literally, okay, I know of people where you have a single person, a widow, living in a house worth 2.2 million, whose own children are having trouble replacing the shock absorbers of their car. Before the woman's husband died, the two of them went down to the Harvester at the end of the road, okay, discovered that the special offer on the, the cheap dinner before 6:00 PM didn't apply on Fridays, and walked all the way home again.

Now, I don't know when, you know, I don't know what your idea of millionaire is, okay, but probably your, your definition of millionaire is not someone who goes to little because they're worried about the price of lemons. But I know people who have literally. So you have this absurd discrepancy where you have people who are asset rich in a form of an asset which is completely liquid, where for whatever reasons, and some of them are good reasons, I'm not disputing this, older people seem absurdly reluctant to downsize. I have, I don't quite know what's going on there, okay. But I mean, my brother lives in a house somewhere in Buckinghamshire where, effectively, the entire road, not quite the entire road, I think the entire road bar three houses, consists of a house worth a million quid in which one or two retired people live with four or five bedrooms. They, they're effectively bed blockers for the property market. They're preventing people from forming families. Those people, they don't need the space. It's kind of wacko. Okay. I don't quite get what's going on.

Now, one thing you, one thing that could solve the problem quite quickly is the engineer a pretty decent property crash, just temporarily, so people no longer had this absurd overconfidence in the fact that their house would continue to go up. I think there are people who don't move out of London who would be happier living out of London, but they're terrified that once you move out, you'll never be able to move back in, and they're terrified of missing out. It's, it's, it's basically a massive collective FOMO.

Okay. Now I mentioned the fact that, you know, neoliberal economics, um, assumes optimal, uh, utility maximizing expenditure. Just to be clear on this, okay, housing is the worst way you can spend your money in terms of the externalities. Okay. If I go and go to the pub, right, okay, I'll give you, give you an example of if you look at the effect my expenditure has on other people, right? There's a huge amount of variety in that. In that if I go to the pub, I'm not just buying myself a pint, I'm also securing the survival of a pub for the benefit of lots of other people. Okay. Spending money in pubs, cafes, and restaurants, I would argue, is kind of positive. It's positive for the wider community. Yeah. Okay.

Um, you might even argue, and I would, that buying a car from new is an extraordinary act of philanthropy. Because I buy a car, I take a massive hit in terms of depreciation, so that someone significantly poorer than me can have a car that was, that is nearly as good as my car was when I bought it new, for half the price. Go out, seriously, go out and buy a six-year-old Jag. Okay. You're basically driving around in a luxury vehicle at somebody else's expense. I mean, people who buy cars from new should be celebrated. We should have, we, you know, we should have a statue to anybody who buys a car from new. It's an amazing act of philanthropy.

Okay. My brother's an academic, and I always tease him by saying that I, he basically, in most material goods, he ends up buying exactly the same [ __ ] I do, just three years later. Okay. You know, whether it's computers or mobile phone phones or whatever. A secondhand iPhone, utter extraordinary act of generosity. Someone has a phone which effectively the richest person in the world probably would have owned, I mean, not the very same phone, but an identical phone three years before, and they get it three years later for a third of the price. There are lots of ways in which consumption is actually extreme. You got, even if I go and buy a hot tub, okay, which is getting onto the more selfish phase of things, um, if lots of people buy hot tubs, hot tubs will become a lot cheaper, and more people will be able to afford hot tubs. If you, okay, so this is this is my problem.

I feel that I've worked in advertising for 30 years, and I've entirely wasted my time because what I've done is helped people buy better and better and cheaper and cheaper consumer goods for the most part. There are problems in customer service, in in service-led brands, which I'll, I'll park for a second. I think, I think customer service has got worse all the way through a kind of cult of automation. But but basically, the manufactured goods you buy, the meals, the food you buy, the meals you eat out, okay, are better than they were. I mean, you're not even old enough to fully appreciate it, but trust me, compared to the 1970s, okay, you, Pizza Express, the Manu, Cat Sail, compared, okay, compared to, you know, a standard place you go and eat in 1973, everything's got better. It's mostly got cheaper and more affordable. Okay. And the subtotal of that effect has been to allow people to spend more of their discretionary income on property, and therefore most of the what should have been the extraordinary gains in living standards in terms of the holidays people enjoy, the cars people drive, and everything else has been soaked up effectively by the property market.

And I think we should tax that because I think it's an entirely worthless form of wealth accumulation. And I think that land value, not if you improve your house, you get to keep that because that's your work, but the actual basic value of the land and the appreciation of the value of the land should be heavily taxed because it's an atrocious thing for people to do with their money. It's not an investment, okay, it's totally inert in terms of its effect. It's purely rivalrous. It's, it's, it's much worse than the Dutch tulip thing, the property market, because I don't have to buy a tulip, right? Okay. The Dutch tulip boom was an insane kind of Ponzi scheme, nutter boom, but, you know, there are substitution for tulips. I know these tulips getting be expensive.

What is the Dut? There was a thing that it's part true, part mythical, I think if you dig into it, um, it was effectively that tulip prices, um, and particularly for rare tulips, basically spiraled out of control at some point in 17th century Holland. And so it was one of these cases where effectively, um, rising prices brought in ever more demand, and so you had this thing where effectively it was a crazy boom which spiraled out of control. But the great, you know, that's not a problem because I, I, I, I don't need a tulip. I can get by without them. I could decide to substitute with gladioli. Okay. But you need housing. You need a place to live. And actually, you need a place to live with a reasonable degree of certainty in which you can bring up a family.

The fact that housing has become the predominant, uh, form of wealth storage is to Adam Smith. Okay. Adam Smith distinguished between three things: labor, capital, land. Subsequent economists, because it made the maths easier, conflated labor and land, sorry, conflated capital and land and treated them as the same thing. Adam Smith quite rightly spotted that they are not the same thing. Capital and land are not the same thing. Land is something that is in short supply, and in many cases, the value of it is determined by the actions of others. Okay. You know, someone builds a road, suddenly your house is worth either less or more depending on the road, is whether the road framed as a good thing or a bad thing.

The Singaporean government basically is Georgist. In other words, they own a lot of the land. They fund a large part of the government by, they're effectively property developers with a side gig in governance. I think that's the third or fourth time you said Georgist now. Can you? Oh, oh, CRA. Well, I, um, so Henry George. I'm, I'm not. By the way, you could apply the same principle to any non-nonrenewable resource, whether it be land or fossil fuels. But George's idea was that, I mean, taken to its purest extreme, was that there should only be a single tax in the United States, and the tax should be on the value of land. Because the, the idea being that the value of land is basically land ownership is basically extractive. It's rent-seeking.

Now, here's the greatest mystery in economics. All economists agree that rent-seeking is a bad thing. In other words, patent, you know, patent trolling would be another example. Okay. You're not actually contributing to anything. What you're seeking to do is to own a bottleneck, all right, and then effectively own something that is essential to somebody else and basically milk your ownership of it. You're not actually doing any useful work. You're not investing and creating anything new. You're simply exploiting, you know, an asset that other people require access to.

So what tends to happen, okay, what George would say is that when you get people, let's say forming a community, and the community becomes more and more desirable and more and more wealthier, and more people want to move there and so forth, um, the gains which should go to the people who did the work, or indeed provided the upfront investment to build the buildings or whatever, instead go to the owner of the land who contributed nothing. And what tends to happen is whenever you have any any source of, whenever you have any form of useful activity which depends for its performance on its location, the gains from that activity do not primarily go to the person who's performing the useful activity. Okay, they go to the person who owns the land on which that activity takes place. Yes. Okay.

So, you know, an example would be airport retail, which is effectively, you know, uh, various brands have to be there. You, the people who get rich out of airport retail are not retailers, they're airports. MH. And what they happen to do is simply own a kind of, you know, they've got a, um, a location, the ownership of which confers an income on them without requiring any commensurate investment or risk. And so the idea is that effectively, since this thing is extractive, some people have described Georgism as basically socialism in relation to land, uh, free market capitalism in relation to everything else. Yeah. Okay. That's probably a quite a good, that's quite a good shorthand.

You could, interestingly, I'm sure some people do. I haven't researched this enough. Extend exactly the same thing to, for example, non-renewable energy. Yeah. You could say oil. The, the, the ethical justification for this is kind of, look, land, okay, the fruits of your labors rightly belong to you because you created that thing. However, land shouldn't necessarily belong to anybody because it was effectively an endowment from the Creator, you might have said. And the gains from that endowment deserve to be apportioned fairly and reasonably. Whereas the gains from individual labor, enterprise, or risk deserve to be disproportionately, um, uh, apportioned to rewarding the person who underwent those efforts or those risks. I think that makes sense, does it? So it's basically saying that land is a different category of thing. Yeah. Okay. And you might argue fossil fuels. I, I would, I, I would say it's not a huge leap to say that you should basically tax the use of non-renewable resources. Yeah, because the idea being that they aren't actually the fruit of man, if you want to get religious about it, they're actually a kind of, you know, that they're a fixed endowment.

And that, uh, you know, as people don't deserve the fair share of other people's labors, yeah, there's an argument that they, you should reapportion the wealth that comes from effectively extractive rent-seeking through land ownership. Yeah. See, I'm thinking won't Adar me to the world's property developers. Maybe not. And more ironically still, my one of my daughters is planning to work in commercial property. But, um, my, my point about this is that it's certainly, okay, it was given that Adam Smith believed it, um, uh, actually a surprisingly large number of people. I think Winston Churchill was a Georgist. I think to a large extent. I think Milton Friedman was, by the way. Right. There have been large numbers of economists and and fairly eminent people, who, who's that fashion designer who, uh, was married to Malcolm McLaren? You know, the one who? Oh, you're asking the wrong person. Someone famous. Fashion designer who died fairly recently. Vivienne Westwood. Vivienne Westwood was a Georgist. I'm delighted to say. There are quite some quite interesting people who, um, uh, uh, you know, weirdly, who are like ex-Goldman Sachs who believe this stuff. Now, it's worthy of exploration. It's worthy of experimentation, that's all I can say. I mean, you could experiment fairly easily by creating a Georgist community somewhere, as indeed happened in the United States and a couple of places. Right. And you establish a place effectively on George's principles, where the, you know, the public services are paid for in proportion to land ownership. But unfortunately, we fetishize home ownership. And the argument is, if you tax wealth or you tax home ownership, uh, you're taxing people twice. Well, that's bollocks. Okay. Okay. I mean, okay, yes, they earned the money to buy the house out of income, probably. That's not even, that's not. But the, the vast increase in the value of that house has been created by government monetary policy. Okay. And it's a completely un wholesome. What I'm saying is that if you, or hasn't been prevented, if if that old lady, unlikely to happen, the old lady who didn't want to go down to Harvester to get the non-gain meal, it would be better for the economy if she sold the house and went on a massive orgy of, uh, crack smoking and, uh, jet skiing. MH. It would actually be better for the economy if she moved out of that house and actually spent the money in some shape or form in a way in which it would actually circulate. Because we literally have trillions of pounds of wealth in the UK up in the most inert, non-liquid, you know, okay. If she bought IBM shares and she had 2 million, you know, 1950 something, and she had 2 million pounds worth of IBM shares when her children needed their shock absorbers fixed on the, a daughter and her son-in-law, okay, needed the shock absorbers fixed on their car, I think it, fantastically, she probably would have sold a bit of it. A house is appalling because the only way you can realize the gain is by dying or by moving house. Yeah. Okay. I mean, for that alone, we should hate money so, you know, that's actually tied up in property. So this tax, property, property ownership makes people stupid in a weird kind of way.

How do you mean stupid? Well, I mean, you get these people, okay, people don't want to move, I get it. But you literally have this whole generation attachment. I respect as an advertising person, I respect irrational attachment. There, my only point is that, um, I would argue that people in their 70s and 80s probably are pretty irrational. MH. By the standards of anybody else, in terms of what they're attached to. MH. Um, I'd also argue that we fetishize the old, um, in that all you need is one newspaper, so story about an old person who's, who's got to move out of their home, okay, because they can't afford the new land value tax, and that's Georgism killed. Now, old people, now they didn't fight in World War II, they were at the bloody festival pensioners now, right? You know, I, I, you know, I understand why we're extremely differential towards the generation of old people who I knew as I, as I grew up, because they'd, you know, fought in the trenches or in the case of my great uncle, being, you know, you know, being a rear gunner in a Lancaster bomber in 50 missions over occupying Europe. I, I don't want to move that guy out of his home. The current old people, they're crap, they're rubbish, they're totally for whom final salary pensions. Okay. You know, they're, they're not, they're not proper old people, they're people get older. I think people like have this deep respect for elders because they've fought in the trenches, as you say, and then they get themselves get older and they've, they've sort of internalized this, "Well, you've really got to respect your elders" thing, realizing that maybe the reasons why we had that particular respect don't, don't, I don't think the conditions apply to the extent they did. I don't think our veneration of the old and our deference toward the old, okay, they're not captain to these people, right? They did some cushy job, they grew up in the 60s, they had really good music, okay, they had pretty good drugs, and then they got a job, you know, in some public sector position with a final salary pension. Sorry, I'm not, you know, I don't think we should actually screw over young people to, you know, respect people who, you know, had some crappy public sector job with a cushy pension. I don't think that deserves the same level of veneration and def that we're giving them. I think that's fair enough. I also, they're old, they've lucked out, right? I've got, I've had friends who died in their 40s and 50s. Okay. They're already lucky in terms of the health endowment they've enjoyed. Okay. Right. And now we're actually giving them money as well. It's ridiculous. Yeah.

But I mean, do you think you'll, you'll still feel that way when you're 80? If I make it, um, uh, the, um, the point I would make is that I hope when I was 80, regardless of the state of my financial affairs, I'd have some intelligent apportionment of my wealth where 100% of my available, you know, of my wealth was not tied up in the place where I lived. I, I would have at least made mental preparation to move somewhere smaller. By the way, it's a bit like getting a stairlift. Most people who get a stairlift wish they'd done it five years earlier. Okay. Most people who downsize wish they'd done it five years earlier. Yeah. My father was forced to downsize because he had a, um, a property business which kind of crashed badly and was forced to move from a bigger house into a smaller house. One year later, he actually said this was the best thing that happened because otherwise I would have been an 87-year-old struggling to maintain a huge house. Right. It's not a great way to, it's, you know, and you know, there are only two of you or one of you, right? You don't need, you know, you don't need five bedrooms. Okay. My wife said this, she said, "Oh, I want a bigger place so the children can come and stay." Okay. [ __ ] that, the little shits can go and stay in the Travelodge. Not going to have them hanging around the place. I'm not going to, I'm not going to spend 250,000 on a bloody spare bedroom just so the little shits can, you know, come and visit for sort of three days every month. They can go down the Travelodge like everybody else. And, um, so no, no, I, I, I, I find it weird that we regard this as normal.

There are lots of aspects of the property market, um, where economists have conflated land ownership with capital. Okay. Lots of aspects of the property market, uh, for example, the fact that for 30 years, property price rises were presented in the news as a good news story. Right? Okay. Yeah. Now, nobody says, "Hey, good news, if you've got a full tank of petrol, the cost of petrol has gone up." Okay, because it's something that people need to use over time. Okay. But for some reason, now, just to be clear, if you look at it, um, sequentially, longitudinally, a property price rise is very good news if you've got parents who are planning to die soon, and it's very good news if you're planning to downsize. For everybody else, either people who don't own property or who are planning to move to a larger property because they've just had kids, a property price rise is bad news. MH. It is good news for an extraordinarily small group of people at a particularly select point of their life. Okay. Other than that, it's bad news for everybody else. And yet, the news coverage of it for more or less the entire duration of my adult life was great news. Property has gone up. Why? I, collective insanity is the only thing I can think of. You know, "Hey, great news if you've already got a loaf of bread, bread prices have gone up." Nobody says that. Okay. But for some reason, property was treated as wealth. It's not. It's consumption. You consume property. Okay. People need to consume property. They need a place to live.

There is an answer, by the way, which is to, um, and nobody's going to like this. What we actually need is trailer parks. Now, the point about a trailer park is you own the thing in which you live, but you don't own the land on which it stands. And if the trailer park person gets a bit greedy, you can move it somewhere else. MH. Now, if you go to the Caribbean, there's this extraordinary thing called the chattel house, which is a little two-room house made of wood. They're very, very beautiful. They were obviously the product of really talented carpenters, and they arose when slavery was abolished in the Caribbean in, I suppose, the, I suppose it's the 1820s or something, is it? My dates, some time in the early 19th century. And what happened was that the slave owners were obliged to pay a wage to the freed slaves, but they got it back by basically claiming rent for living in their current housing on the plantation. Okay. So it was kind of meaningless. Which is, by the way, a metaphor for I think our current state of affairs, which is that all economic gains, okay, all economic gains, all improvements in consumer products, all improvements in wealth, even I would argue the double income household, okay, it's getting really controversial, have largely been soaked up in the shape of higher property prices.

So the double income household, okay, it starts as an option. Lovely, my wife can go out to work too, and we can earn two salaries. Early days, absolutely lovely. Okay. Suddenly, okay, who benefits? The government because they're getting twice as much tax. Right. Homeowners benefit because now you need two salaries to buy a house, and therefore houses are worth commensurately, you know, 50% more. Most of the gains over the long term, not immediately, if if you're an early two-income household, you were rolling in it. Okay. But over time, people cotton onto the fact that people were earning two two incomes and therefore demanded more money for a house. As a consequence of which, the government got more tax revenue, homeowners got rich from it. The, I would argue, the typical double income household enjoyed a fairly modest increase in their quality of life. All right. And lost 35 hours of discretionary time every week per household. So when I was a kid, a working-class person could bring up kids on one salary. It wasn't a particularly nice life, but it was actually possible without resorting to total penury. I now know of hospital consultants who are single, who basically can't afford to buy anything. They can barely afford, they're, you know, they're consultant surgeon, whatever it may be, that, you know, they cannot afford to buy, you know, a tolerable place to live with only one income. If they're single. So, you know, the double income thing starts as an option, it becomes an obligation. Yeah. Hugely unfair to single people, hugely unfair to people who want to take time off to bring up children. It's, and now, okay, before I get looked at as if I'm some sort of weirdo sexist, I want to make the point that the two people who raise this, this is not okay. Elizabeth Warren, the senator for Massachusetts, of whom I'm a weird fan. I think she's really, really. And Fay Weldon, who I knew quite well because she used to be an Ogilvy copywriter, and Fay Weldon said that effectively, you know, the two-income idea was great news for certain people at a certain time, but the long-term effects might have been net negative unless you are either a government or a property owner.

So what I see is that there's no point in getting, I mean, look, okay, look at these cameras here. Okay, they're a miracle. You know, if you go and look at a, this is a weird, this guy doesn't seem to have a telly, he's got a lot of art. Where's his telly? That's a good question, actually. Does that painting actually slide back and reveal a 955 in Samsung 48K telly? Anyway.

Well, like we can just, we can just tell them there's a there. Yeah, yeah.

Okay, you know, okay, your television is a miracle compared to a television 20 years ago. I mean, literally, you know, people would have paid millions for a flat screen TV if it had existed in the 1970s. Okay. Computer games, everything of that kind has been massively improved without any commensurate increase in price, by the way, and actually an extraordinary degree of egalitarianism, which is that if you're a multi-millionaire, you can't really get a better phone than someone on median income. Sure, you can. Okay, you can get a fancier TV, I grant that, but only at the point of being ridiculous. Yeah, not to the point that it's actually, actually your Netflix is the same as my Netflix. Okay. 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Country pubs that have a bit of spare space in the car park. Okay, if you could plunk my little two-bedroom job in the pub car park. Well, on for that. So if people could actually buy for 50, 60. In America, you can buy a trailer. I mean, a really nice, brand new trailer. It's about $80,000, and they're pretty nice, and they're fully kitted out with all sorts of [ __ ]. Okay, and you know, okay, they got a better climate. I mean, we got to accept some things about that. But you could join two of these things together. And if you are free to own a form of accommodation without owning the the rights to build on the land on which it sits, you could fundamentally disrupt the property market. Maybe what you need is planning permission for three years only. Do you see what I mean? Yes. So that when people gave planning permission for people to live in the neighboring field, it was for three years, and they got a bit of money from it, uh, rather than indefinitely.

I had this same idea, which is, I think we should build lots of nuclear power stations on ships. Mhm. Right. And the reason is that if someone wants to build a nuclear power station next to my house, right, yeah, even me, I'm pretty pro-nuclear power, but I'm going to have, I'm going to be a bit iffy about it. But I've got, I've got a little flatten deal, and I'm a bit of an amateur rackman. I do own two small flats. I, it's partly a product of my, you know, the, the time in which I was born. Um, but if, if a nuclear power station sails in close to the coast, okay, plugs into a big wire, and then for three months, it provides a lot of power to East Kent, and then it sails off somewhere else. I'm not remotely bothered, am I? Okay. I'm not, I'm not going to protest that to the same degree I would, uh, protest a permanent fixture. So I've got this theory that you just put nuclear power stations on ships, and people would be pretty chill. They'd think, okay, the thing's going to be in harbor for eight months, and then it's going to go somewhere else. Yeah. Completely different level of objection. There could be some sort of like tax benefit for the people who live near it or something.

Well, that's fascinating. If we didn't have this huge explosion in property prices, which unjustly enriches people, uh, without any real measure of the contribution they've made to society. Yeah. Without any proportionality. First of all, you know, one of the things you do is you discredit capitalism because, you know, you can say what you like about Henry Ford being rich, but he gave a lot of people a c, right? Okay. Whereas, you know, nowadays, the rich person is likely to be some weird Russian who's honey-trapped the local Nur into selling them an aluminum smelting works for, you know, 20,000 rubles. You know, it is, it doesn't have the same degree of meritocracy or earned merit, okay, than it used to. So you discredit the whole nature of wealth and capitalism by making it so much to do with your asset class ownership rather than your effort. That's that's my first objection. Second thing is, if we hadn't had property, if we had an artificial means, EG taxation of keeping, and then and a commensurate reduction in income tax, right? If we'd had some means of taxing land value, uh, could people now actually work a four-day week and maintain their basic quality of life? I think that's entirely possible. Okay. Could you have a guaranteed basic income on the basis of this? It might be possible.

Now, my point about this is, by the way, not saying that I'm right and I'm definitely right. I'm simply utterly baffled by the extent to which the incredibly limited number of variables that are considered by neoliberal economic models completely limit the possibility for experimentation. I mean, interest rates become this like weird tool, you know, or keeping inflation down, okay? You know, and, and, and there are, there are loads and loads of experiments with the reapportionment of the rewards, not the rear portion of wealth necessarily, but just the rear portion of the rewards to effort. MH. That should be at least intelligently tried and experimented with. Um, I, I've got a vague idea. I think that, for example, someone at Kent County Council went to the government and said, we'd like to do an experiment where we basically sell planning permission. MH. Because when you give someone planning permission, well, let me explain how I would have paid for Highp Speed to all right. I would have bought 20,000 acres, um, actually two lots of 20,000 acres between London and Birmingham, and two lots of 20,000 acres again of agricultural land between Birmingham and Manchester. And I would have built the railway. I would have awarded myself planning permission, uh, for those 20,000 acres to build housing or communities or whatever you needed. And then I would have built a station in the center of each of those communities. The value of agricultural land, I'm probably a bit out of date here, is about £3 to £4,000 an acre. The value of land with planning permission for residential building, um, uh, uh, within 20 minutes of Houston Station is probably something like, uh, that's actually interesting, possibly a million pounds an acre. Is it might be more, right? It's going to be a few million. I thought, okay, so literally you're multiplying your money by a few orders of magnitude. Yeah. Now, if you'd done that three times, you would have paid for the whole railway, okay, simply by awarding yourself planning permission. What do we do at the moment? We award planning permission to people. We effectively give them a gift of a million quid. Their neighbors meanwhile have to put up with all the [ __ ] and disruption. They get absolutely nothing. The state gets nothing. The local council gets more or less nothing. This is an absurd system. It's absolutely batshit crazy. So you have government conferring millions of pounds of wealth on people through the planning system without recouping any of it to the benefit of the wider community. What a weird thing to do.

That is quite strange. And, and, and unfortunately, rather pessimistic note on which we're going to have to wrap up. I mean, because unfortunately, I do not own this, this, this. But, but my only argument is, these things are testable. They're two-way doors. Yeah. Okay. You can, this Jeff Bezos phrase, a two-way door is something where, to be honest, it's actually easier to try it out in reality than it is to argue it in theory. Sure. And the complete death of experimentation in areas like this, where I think Kent tried to do this, and the Treasury just had a complete like contion about it. Okay. This, we'd like to experiment with a system where we fund local government by basically selling planning permission to people and effectively, um, what you might call nationalizing the gains from effectively what is a government action, which is issuing permission to build. Yeah. It's an empirical question. You can try it out and see if it, try it out, see if it works. Isn't the motto of your company, um, something like, try the unintuitive things? Because no, no, that's actually, I think that's me. I, I would like it to be the bottom line. Test counterintuitive things because all, all the, all the logical things have been tried already. Okay. If there were a logical answer to your problem, some would have already solved it. There's no shortage of logical people kicking around, okay? So by a kind of logic Darwinism, you can say that the problems that are actually that submit to logic have mostly gone away, and we're left for the ones that require something counterintuitive, oblique, tangential, weird. Yeah. There's a great book by John Kay called Obliquity, which I really recommend that everybody reads, which is precisely about this. I'll make sure it's down in the description. Sutherland, thank you for, uh, for, it's been a huge pleasure. Absolute delight. Thank you very much. Wonderful tour of some interesting areas that we don't usually get to touch on on this channel. But I mean, it, it just strikes me as utterly weird that all you need to do is a fairly easy reframing where you see property ownership is property ownership is not wealth, it's consumption. You're consuming the property in which you live by depriving someone else of the right to live there. Now, if, interestingly, consumer electronics, not really consumption, because if I buy an iPhone, I make iPhones cheaper for other people. So there's an odd thing. How, how do you define consumption? Well, you could argue that the worst form, the best form of consumption is when I go to a pub, and I make a pub available for lots of other people at lots of different times, okay? There's a wider benefit to that. Okay. When I buy a new car, you might argue I'm engaging in an active philanthropy where I'm effectively giving someone poorer than me a really good. Imagine if property were like the car market. Yeah. I bought this place for 2 million in Fulham, but I've used it for three years, so you can have it for, you can have it for 900,000. Yeah. That's how the property market would work. Apparently, it does a bit in Florida, where there was so much new build that actually property did actually decline in value with use, really. You got that peculiarity. But, you know, it feels like property is different because it feels, I know you say property is something that you consume. It feels like something you don't consume. It feels like something that, that, that you own that is just there that you inhabit. No, no, no, no. It's, it's undoubtedly a form of rivalrous consumption because that old lady living in that house is depriving a family of a family home. Okay. The people on my brother's street are depriving families of places where they could live by insisting on living there as just two people. Um, I don't know quite what drives the terror of downsizing, actually. I mean, some of it's loss of status, probably. Okay. Uh, that, you know, some of it is, you know, fear of running out of money. But I mean, literally, I know of cases of people who are paper millionaires, but who are, who are like cancelling their Spectator subscription. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's not the, that's not when you set a. Okay, put it here's another phrase I, I used in The Spectator which chimed with a lot of people. Okay. Let's imagine you get a job as a sort of corporate lawyer. I'm not saying that's good, okay? I hope you don't become a corporate lawyer. But if you did, and you suddenly ended up earning £150,000 a year, okay, and you decided you're going to buy half of a terraced house in Fulham for like 950,000. What that means is that for the next 20 years, a very large slice of your discretionary income is going to be eaten up in order to own something that a poor person would have owned in 1917. Now, that is not progress. Right? You're impoverishing yourself as an immensely, immensely wealthy lawyer in 2024, and the sum total of your ambition is to own something that a poor person owned in 1917. Nobody aspires to cars from 1917. Okay? Go and buy [ __ ] jet ski. You know, go and buy something that people in 1917 couldn't have owned. All right? You go and buy something that would have made, you know, Louis the 14th go, [ __ ] hell, I want one of those. Yeah. All right. Right. Don't go and buy. Because Louis the 14th would look at you as your corporate liar and go, right, your television, you know, your dental care, your analgesics, all the things brought to you by consumer capitalism. Defy apart from maybe the food and the clothing, I reckon. I think Louis the 14th would go, bit dowdy, you go, wouldn't he? Tiny bit. Where's the silk? Come on, B, you shirt. And also, um, your car. Even I don't. Do you have a car? Because you're young. I didn't have a car. [ __ ] young people. I can't even drive. Well, you can't drive. [ __ ] hell. What's wrong with you people? I grew up on the Welsh borders. I would have chosen to actually sever my own genitals rather than not have a car. Okay? And actually, to be honest, not having a car would have had a worse effect on my social and sex life than severing my genitals. Okay? You young people, you're also [ __ ] metol. Oh, no, no. I'll just get an Uber. No, learn to [ __ ] drive. Grow up. Crying out loud. The other problem is, I'm going to tell you something here, which is interesting, because I think it's a problem for the motor industry. Yeah. If you drive frequently, driving becomes system one, and it's really enjoyable. I'm not talking about London traffic, but I'm talking about driving in the country is one of life's great joys. You young people, you just like hire a car when you're in Lanzarote for seven days. If you only drive for seven days or 14 days a year, driving is terrifying. So you don't enjoy it. So you're missing out on this massive pleasure. You know, um, but I, I don't understand this. I mean, you young people, you don't really even want a car. Where am I going to, where am I going to put a car? You want a [ __ ] car. Where, where am I going to put a car? You know, you, where did you, you live in London? In London, I mean, have you, have you, have you tried driving in? Oh, no, driving in London is much fun. I get out. Get out. How old are you now? You, you've been living in a suburbia. How old do you think I am? My guess is about 32. I'm 25. You're 25. 25. Okay, fair enough. You can say in London, you don't need to have a car. Okay. I'll, I'll back down. When you're 32, you're going to start looking at two-bed homes and get a decent car and a lawnmower. You know, ridiculous business. So protracted childhood is a product of the property market. Think I'm going to save up my money and buy a jet ski instead. Yeah, buy the jet ski. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But no, I mean, what fascinates me about that is how much of our disposable income and therefore how much of our labor. Now, in fairness to me, okay, I only own a flat. The flat I live in is probably worth less than, I don't know, maybe half a million. Okay. I bought it for 400,000 quite a long time ago. Hasn't gone up in value at all. But it is in a Robert Adam house. You know, Louis the 14th would go, well, you're living in the attic, mate. That's a bit dismal. But [ __ ] me, it's a grade one house. M. I've got a friend, all credit to him, he lives in the Barbican. And there's a bit of me which goes, yeah, I kind of get that. You go into this flat in the Barbican, you go, well, it's worth 1.8 million. But you do walk into the apartment and go, [ __ ] me, this is amazing. He's on the 23rd floor, right? But I don't understand. I don't understand these people who are spending like, you know, 2. This house actually is pretty damn cool, isn't it? Okay. Oh, yeah. You know, okay. If I have 5 million, this, this house we're in now, which is yours, isn't it? I get a from your, your proceeds from podcast. Yeah, that's right. No, but what I'm saying is, I do, I do at least get this place where you come and you go, it's got a swimming pool and it's in central London. It is lovely. This is extraordinary. What amazes me is the amount of money that's soaked up in property that's compl. I don't actually live here. I, I do not actually live here. Just for, I'm going to ruin my, my, my supporters on on Substack would probably immediately cancel if they thought that this was my house. But, um, but it's a very weird of our money. Yeah. To to spend that much money in something so unremarkable, which could be devoted to either things that are amazing, like EasyJet. I realize I'm not doing myself any favors with the environmental community by recommending, but the electric jet ski, that's going to be a real thing. Oh, yeah. That's going to be a [ __ ] me, that's going to be great. But the ultimate solution, and I think this is Elon's plan, okay, is to destroy the whole property market. Right. What's he got? Starling? Okay. Yeah. He's got massive batteries, solar panels, electric vehicles. Okay. Oh, boy. Now put them all together. What have you got? You've got the potential to be nomadic. All right. So effectively, when you have the Tesla Winnebago, which I think is waiting in the wings, which is a [ __ ] massive American motor. Do you ever watch, um, uh, there's a brilliant, brilliant YouTube channel where there's an RV salesman who basically takes you through the latest American. The ingenuity with which they use the space is absolutely beautiful. They have the other, the other thing, even a fairly base level American motor home. This explains how bad the value is we get from our property, okay, which is we spend a fortune on a thing, it's just a pile of bricks. Okay? It could have been built. Well, you know, I mean, there's very little about the technology of house building that's moved on since, well, frankly, the Romans. Okay? I mean, the Romans would look at builders and basically know what they were doing. Okay? I mean, that's appalling. I mean, why don't we produce housing and the way we mass produce cars? It's obviously stupid. Okay? I have no idea what's going on here. Buckminster Fuller tried. But the real American motor home, at the base level, you pay £80,000 for this American motor home. It's got, you know, it's got a nice bedroom. It's got a [ __ ] TV on the outside. I'm not making that up. Okay? Because to the American motor home owner, you might want to sit outside, watch television. So there's actually a panel that lifts up on the outside of the motor home, and there's a flat screen TV underneath, so you can watch television outside. Now that's living. Now, I wonder if Elon's plan is effectively to destroy the property market by encouraging us to become nomadic. Because for your generation, it's quite logical if you think about it. Okay? You can buy, you know, you can afford to buy a really nice motor home. Uh, you're paying only for accommodation. You're not. Because this is what's weird about property, okay? In order to buy a place to live, you also have to buy the land on which it sits, and you have to buy the, the rights to that land in most cases. Now, that is by far the great part of the value of that house. If, if you go around, if you look at this house now, the, the cost of rebuilding this house, even though it's a pretty magnificent house, would I guess be £200, £250,000. The value of the house is probably 2.5 million. M. So it's the land that actually maintains the value, okay, not the actual bricks, mortar, and all the other stuff. Yeah. So what we're forcing people to do is say, yeah, yeah, you can buy, you can buy a place to live, but you have to spend nine times as much again on owning the rights to that land. Now, imagine if, okay, imagine a world where if you, if you bought a car, let's say you wanted to buy a Ford Mondeo. I know you're young, and therefore you've probably got a fixie bicycle or some weird scooter. Right? Sorry, okay. You know, while you're not photographing your food and shaving your genitals. Okay? I'm just stereotypical old man there. Um, okay, but, but, um, if you bought a Ford Mondeo, they say, yeah, you can buy the Ford Mondeo, but you have to buy £200,000 worth of Ford shares in order to own a Ford Mondeo. This is ridiculous. I just want a car. Right? I don't want an investment. I just want a thing to drive around in. But in a house, we've conflated those two things. It's completely bonkers. And the people who solved it, the Irish traveler community, were people who who found themselves in the UK and couldn't afford to buy or rent a house. So they borrowed Romany lifestyle in order. So that's nomadism. And then you have the trailer park in the US, or you have the chattel house in the Caribbean, which is effectively ownership of a house without ownership of the land on which it sits. We do really have to get out of here now. Okay. Of you probably have to photograph AV the car thing among the young. To someone who grew up on the Welsh borders is, oh no, don't own a car. You [ __ ] kidding you. Ian, I'm not young. So I, I own a car. You a. There's no going back, is there? Once you own a car. Yeah. I got a car as soon as I could. Yeah. Exactly. A car and a fixie bike. Do you? You got both? You? Yeah. No, just a fixie bike. Just a fixie bike. No, I've got a car. You got a car? Okay. I don't even have a bike. I, I use those Lime. So you live in London? In, um, yeah, I live in London and I sort of use those, those Lime bikes to get around. They, that's interesting. Is the electric bike actually really important? Because the important thing with electric cars isn't just making cars that look like modern cars that are electric. It's the potential for miniaturization. So actually, one thing I'm really sympathetic to is the cargo, the electric cargo bike. Okay? Because the problem with a bike is that there are too many things that can kill it. If you got to go uphill, this is a physical bike. It, if it's raining, it's killed. If you got to go uphill, it's killed. If you got luggage, it's killed. If you want to go shopping, it's no good. Okay? Now, the cargo bike is like this, because the electric thing basically takes care of the hills for you, and it's got a bit of storage. It's quite a happy compromise between a car and a bicycle. Yeah. So there's something there that really appeals to me. And then, of course, there's this whole micro mobility thing. There's this Swiss company that makes little two-seater cars. Has anybody been to France recently? The Citroën Ami. Did you see those? They're actually kicking around. They're like, apparently you can get them here. You just rent them. Is it like 200 a month, and you just plug it into the mail? Yeah. It's tiny. Yeah. 16-year-olds can. Okay, we need to change that. That's the sort of thing the government should be doing, saying, okay, if you're 16, you can, yeah, you can have a little mini. Yeah. I think max speed is about 20 miles an hour. Something that's take. Yeah, I'm sure people mod them. Yeah, of course. But we won't say that. We say that that's, we see whizzing past at 60 miles an hour. But actually, they, hell of a lot of my journey to the station this morning, I could have happily done in one of those, you know, um, but actually, those, those are, I mean, that's the interesting thing, which is that in evolutionary terms for electric cars, the adjacent possible is much bigger. You can't really miniaturize petrol. You can't really have driverless with, uh, internal combustion engines to the same extent either, can you? You can't de. Have you got electric on your car? No, I'm about to go electric. What, you know, what are you going for? Sorry, we should have recorded this. Really brilliant. You take a 25-year-old philosopher and theologian and you just hijack it and turn it into a car podcast. This brilliant. Yeah, yeah. You have to do your sign off. What, what are you going for? Yeah, it's going to be, well, you guys. Yeah. Philosophy. We're talking about cars here. Look, we're going, we're going to wrap this up, and you two can car this conversation off in the in the in the corridor. So I can, I can do my fancy goodbyes to the camera before we get kicked out of this place. Okay. You better do your fancy. I'll be kicking quiet. That's all right. Well, we, he is he going to be in short? He have to turn around. You want no, no, it's all right. I mean, we can, we can, I'm going to do, I'm going to do all that stuff separately. So, okay. Let's carry on. We'll go say goodbye. Mo for being. Ah, we'll just end it like that. That's fine.