Transcription
From the classroom to the college door, history has always been a subject that has always tried to put us to sleep. But if I tell you today, considering the current political context, a subject that you need to understand is history, so that you can understand today's current political context. See, history in itself is never value-neutral. How history is, depends on who writes it. And in this regard, the first episode of this podcast series, in which we will cover the origin of Islam in Kashmir with Gabiid Nabi, who is a well-known media personality in the Kashmiri social media space. And the founder of Seera Verse. Thank you for coming to the episode. Thank you for inviting.
>> Absolutely. Actually, I have been trying to invite him for a very long time. But Mashallah, he is trying to be in Eid ka chance since six months, but still. >> Sorry for that. Just because of engagements, truly. >> So if I am a layman and I don't know anything. About what were the origins of Islam and Kashmir, what was the invitation, was it forced, was it trade? What really were the origins according to you, Gabi, for Islam? Why, why did Kashmir need Islam in the first place, or how did it come? How would you tell it to me and also to my audience?
>> See, it's such an ancient question that unless you don't understand this question, the mainstream narrative that is being built now, through which identity is being shaped at the pan-India level, and even at the pan-global level. >> You cannot decode it. >> And you will always be in that kind of loop where you will go here and there like a gust of wind, based on the fact that you don't know the facts. >> Exactly. >> And that's a huge problem. >> We. >> So your identity will always keep shifting. >> Absolutely. >> Islam did not come to Kashmir by force.
>> 17 major books have been written on the history of Kashmir. >> And all of those books. >> We. >> Justify this fact that it came in states. >> Okay. >> It never happened that force came, with a sword, saying, "Let everyone become a Muslim," and everyone became a Muslim. Kashmir is one of those regions where no ideology, whenever it has come, has come by force. It came through penetrating the masses. >> Okay. >> Buddhism came here in 300 BCE. >> Okay. >> It didn't come by force. It came because there was a rigid caste structure here, and Buddhism gave a sort of egalitarian form to society. That's why the masses accepted it, because there was a lot of oppression, suppression, and disparity between the masses, and people found it. >> Same happened with Islam.
>> Now, why am I saying these things? Let me give you some facts. >> In the 17th century, something like this AD. >> Muhammad bin Qasim came to conquer Kashmir. >> He conquered Multan. >> Okay. >> He came to Kashmir. >> Okay. >> He failed. Absolute failure. Because of the very geography. >> Wow. Yes. >> See, Muhammad bin Qasim, who captured Sindh, failed in Kashmir. >> He failed in Kashmir. >> And he came again after a few years. >> And when he was about to conquer for the second time, the Caliph of that time. >> Of Umayyad. >> Walid I called him back. >> Wow. >> Again. >> We can call this a failure. >> That we cannot go here. >> We. >> Second, Taghlibi came, Al-Taghlibi, Amr al-Taghlibi. >> He was following Trilokjanpal, his forces, because Trilokjanpal's forces had come to Kashmir at that time seeking refuge, you know, seeking refuge. He tried to conquer, he failed. >> Wow. >> And the main reason is. >> Geography. >> Geography. >> Geography plus the people. >> Okay. >> This is one of those regions where no one has been able to conquer by force for a long time. >> Wow. >> And people out there think that by building a false narrative, by impressing the very identity of the people out here, they can rule for a long amount of time, or they can maintain the rule. It is nothing more than stupidity of extreme essence.
>> We. Muhammad bin Qasim reminded me, sorry, this goes out of the entire thing. Muhammad bin Qasim was from the city of Taif. >> We. >> Right? And this Taif is the same city from where. >> Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was once pelted with stones. >> Absolutely. From there comes a person in history who comes and spreads Islam. >> Absolutely, in South Asia. Wow. >> And see the beauty, the beauty is that even though a personality like Muhammad bin Qasim. >> Qasim could not conquer Kashmir. >> Right? >> And not only that. >> Mahmud of Ghazni came twice in the 11th century to conquer Kashmir, he failed. >> Wow. I think all these facts are totally missing from the mainstream. Even on the street, this conversation hasn't happened. >> Why don't they open the books, sir? 17 major books have been written on Kashmir. >> It's not just Kalhana who wrote. >> Jogiraja also wrote. Now, Ashrafani also has a book. Dr. Rafi also has a book. Many people have written big, thick books. Not a single one has been opened. >> And then they will believe the same thing that is coming from the mainstream. And the mainstream, you know, always works with the political system that is running at that time, so that it can fit the biases of that political system, to make sure that the political system sustains. >> We, we, we. So, as far as I understand, the main reason, if you wanted to enforce an ideology in Kashmir, was geography. Second, there was no acceptance among the masses of any ideology. Until an ideology was accepted by the Kashmiri masses, that ideology could never come to Kashmir. >> Yes, there is a very unique flavor observed in the Kashmiri masses. >> Right from the earlier times, especially from Buddhism, we can extract some history. Before that, extracting history is very difficult, very, very difficult. But from Buddhism, Kanishka, then the Second Buddhist Council, we get some sort of flavor of what the people here were like. >> Okay. >> All right. >> Even at that point in time, you get to understand one very basic fact about Kashmiris. >> That Kashmiris, as I said earlier, Kashmiris were never forced to accept things. >> We. >> They never accepted things by force. Never ever. This is the flavor. Even in the mainstream, meaning at that time, India. >> India, at that time. >> The caste system structure there, there was immense difference in Kashmir compared to that caste system here. >> The caste system here. >> Was much more tolerable, as compared to any other caste system in the mainstream India at that point of time. >> Okay. >> Wow. >> Shaivism was there, Vaishnavism was there. >> Buddhism was also accepted. >> Jainism was also accepted. And it was unless, I guess, Harsha Deva, or it was Bisara, one of the two. At that time, then, you know, a campaign was run against the Buddhists. Because at that point of time, there is a scholar, I think Marco Polo is his name. >> Or no, no, Xuanzang. Xuanzang came here. >> Here, 700, meaning before the administration of Muslims, he came here. And he saw multiple Buddhist temples in Srinagar at that time. Even though the majority of the population at that time was Hindu, Brahmins. >> So the flavor here has been very tolerant, a secular sort of flavor. Just like we say it's secular in today's day. >> So, at that time too, Kashmiris never accepted that, you know, things should be done forcefully. Everyone was living together. Yes, there were problems, huge problems. >> But it was never a problem that things were being imposed by force. >> But when Islam also came, because I am repeatedly talking about Islam. You know, the mainstream media right now runs on the fact that it's forceful conversions. >> They run on the fact that now, therefore, earlier, you know, Hindus were converted to Muslims by the sword. Now we have to convert them back to Hindus. >> The fact is, the first Sultanate, the first Muslim Sultanate in Kashmir, came in 1339. >> 1339. >> Yes, Shahmiri. >> The first Muslim Kashmiri Sultanate. >> Yes. >> Wow. >> No, he was not a Kashmiri. Shahmiri was not a Kashmiri. >> There is a lot of debate about his origins. Some say he is from Turkistan, some from Persia, some from somewhere else. >> So Shahmiri himself used to say he is a descendant of Arjuna. >> I think the only Muslim rulers of Kashmir were perhaps Yusuf Shah Chak. >> Yes, the Chaks, and along with them the Margareys who were supporting them. Because Chaks and Margareys, these are two such communities, communities means. >> Castes. >> Which were indigenous castes here. >> Okay. >> Okay. So I will come to that, Inshallah. That's a different debate. And again, that was a Muslim Sultanate, not an Islamic Sultanate. >> Okay. >> Even the Shahmiri dynasty, which came in 1339. That was a Muslim Sultanate, not an Islamic Sultanate. >> Islamic Sultanate. I will justify it by saying. >> Yes, like, so now my questions are coming. One, if you said earlier that Muhammad bin Qasim came, then Ghaznavi also came from there, and others also tried to impose themselves in Kashmir, but it didn't happen. >> Yes. >> They come in the 13th century. Like, but what was the reason? Why does it happen in the 13th century? What was happening in the 13th century that wasn't happening before?
>> First report, I'll start like this to make you understand the whole context. >> We. >> Two reports come, two accounts come, about when the first Muslim came to Kashmir. >> We. >> First report comes of Hameem ibn Sim. >> Hameem ibn Sim. >> Yes. It is said that he was the governor of Sindh at that time, or the ruler of Sindh at that time, I don't remember his name, but he was the son of Jasya. He brought Jasya to Kashmir as a refugee because he was attacked, there were some issues with the Sultanate. So he sought refuge in Kashmir at that point in time. Okay. >> And at that time, it is said that either Jyotiraditya Raja was here, or Chandrapida Raja was here. >> So he is the first Muslim who came here. And the king here welcomed him and gave him a place. >> We. >> To come here. >> We. >> The second, more authentic report, is that of Muhammad Alaafi. >> Hmm. >> Muhammad Alaafi was an Arab mercenary. >> Oh. >> All right. >> He sought refuge in Kashmir. And at that time, King Chandrapida knew that Multan had also been conquered. >> By Qasim, Muhammad bin Qasim. >> So he wanted someone from the opposite side who knew their strategy, whom he could use against them. >> He invited him, he accepted him, and he gave him a jagir, Shakarpur or Shakulpur, I don't know the exact name, but this jagir was given to him, and that jagir later came under another Muslim named Jaham. He built the first mosque. >> Wow, interesting. I've never heard this before. >> From the people here. It was a forced conversion? >> What timeline are you talking about? >> 8th century. >> 8th century. >> Meaning, so, we can talk as far back as it goes to Islam, Muslims have been accepted since then. >> Yes. >> So the fact that in the 13th century, basically, there was, as you quoted, a Muslim Sultanate, because the potential was already there. >> It had been created. >> Since the 8th century. By the way, when the Muslim Sultanate came here, Muslims were not in the majority, they were in the minority. >> Okay. Imagine the Shahmiri dynasty came. >> Shahmir changed his name to Sultan Shamsuddin. >> Wow, the facts. >> Yes, I know. >> He married his daughters to Lavanyas and, you know, Darawas, meaning Hindu rulers. >> Why did I say it was a Muslim Sultanate, not an Islamic Sultanate? >> Islam, you know, cross-religious marriage is not allowed, especially like this. >> But to sustain his power, for the 13-14 years he built here, because he came during the time of Saudeo, Sahdev. >> Yes. >> So to build it, he gave his daughters and granddaughters to the Hindu landlords here to get power. >> And at that time, Muslims were in the minority when a Muslim dynasty was here. >> And it was not a forced love, and Darawas supported Shahmir at that point in time. >> And he married Kota Rani, Shahmir Sultan Shamsuddin. >> He married Kota Rani. >> Who was already, meaning, the daughter of a Hindu ruler. >> Meaning, it was more of a power struggle. >> More of a power struggle. >> Even about Mahmud of Ghazni, there is a professor, Professor Habibullah is his name, maybe he is from Kashmir, or he is from Kashmir. >> He has given a case study on how Mahmud of Ghazni's invasion here, which he tried to do twice, was not for Islamic principles. It was for his own power and glory. >> He was also chasing some other power that had fled there and taken refuge in Kashmir. >> I mean, there is something unique about Kashmir. You know what? >> All those who have fled, even recently, it became a big topic that Kashmir's tribe is from Israel's tribe. >> You saw that, it was also in that that those people fled from there and sought refuge here. Everyone has tried to find refuge here. So my entire point was, I'll come to that. PC, Alf, you know, Alf comes. Okay? Then under Jaham, that Shakulpuria, something like that place comes. At that time, by the way, they were called militias. Militias. >> Militias, meaning those. >> Of the Jaziya. >> Because there was a caste system here, right? Very dangerous. In mainstream India, there were four castes. Okay. >> Meaning, the rigidity of the caste system was divided into four systems. Here there were 64. >> But there was tolerance even then, but there was a problem. So there were 64 communities, so they were called Malichas, and the first settlement of Muslims in Kashmir was also called Malichapur at that time. >> Malichapur. >> Yes, Malichapur. Now, what happens is, he comes there, you know, the mosque is built there first. A small community is formed there. >> Later, what happens is, there is a king of Ladakh. >> He has a son, Rinchan. Rinchan. >> Yes. >> That king is murdered in Ladakh. >> We. >> In Tibet. >> We. >> His son comes to Kashmir seeking refuge. >> Seeking. >> Seeking refuge. >> And he was a Buddhist. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> He seeks refuge. >> He gets refuge here. And in fact, he makes him part of the army. I think it was Sahadeva. >> He makes him the part of the army. His own army. >> Shahmir was a part of the army of Sahadeva. Okay. >> Kalhana, whose narrative is used in the mainstream, he writes that in the 11th century, when Harsha Deva, Bisara was there, there were Muslim commanders in the Hindu army. >> Where is this? Rajatarangini. >> It's in Rajatarangini. >> Yes. >> And not only that, Bisara, who came after Harsha Deva. >> He used the Muslim army against Sushala, meaning his contender, to fight. >> Wow. >> So when you are saying that Muslims came here by the sword, and everyone was converted to Islam by the sword, why were the Hindu rulers using them for their own interests and making them commanders? >> This doesn't fit into the right hand. >> You know, just to clear for my audience, so Rajatarangini is a book that Kalhana writes. He was a versifier. A versifier is a person who, let's say in layman's language, a poet. So Rajatarangini is taken as one of the top historical sources. From the other side, there is a debate that no, this is mythology. But you know, this is how I get the answer about Ghaznavi. Because this is highlighted a lot in the Hindutva concept. Ghaznavi came, he did this. But if you see from the Hindutva concept, in the Hindutva concept, Afghanistan is also a part of Bharat or India. >> Right. But if somebody is coming from like Afghanistan, let's go to Delhi, how is an invader and is a part of India in itself? I said this because I don't remember exactly whose book it was, maybe it was R. Roy's book, but she says this very well, but anyway, that's out of the question.
>> See, the idea of an invader. >> Yes. >> Is much associated with the identity of whether you are a Muslim. >> Or not. >> Or not. >> Even though there were 16 Mahajanapadas in Hindustan. >> After the time of the Vedas, there were 16 Mahajanapadas, like 16 great tribes there, who fought among themselves. >> And every time one Mahajanapada attacked another Mahajanapada. >> You never called them invaders. >> Hmm. >> You never called them that, you know, they did it by the force of the sword. Even though they were fighting against each other. >> Out of those 16, then three remained, right? >> We. >> Magadha, the rest of them. >> We. >> So you don't call them invaders because they are not, they are associated with your identity and not an alien identity. >> Which you consider alien. >> So again, your point, when you are saying invader, to define invader. Who is an invader? >> Exactly. You are not saying geographically. You are saying by identity. >> Right? And the fact that you get to decide the identity is a huge problem. Exactly. >> Right? Meaning, for example, let's say that I am, let's say that I am a reverted Muslim. >> We. >> Okay? Now I don't have that choice that I define who the invader is. Now, until you are reverted, you will define who the invader is. This is also a very dangerous thing. >> Exactly, right. This is basically what identity politics is, how much right does an identity have, and they make you second class with this thinking. Meaning, the moment you are not able to think, then you are not able to speak. >> Exactly. See, this is what Jews do. >> Hmm. >> All right. >> You read Al-Mod. >> There are more than 2 lakh verses. >> In the majority of places, the identity that is formed is "us versus them." >> Them. >> And who defines "us"? >> We. >> That's the question. Who defines "us"? Who defines "them"? >> Yes. Who has that power? >> Exactly. Just having power means he can control the masses. Absolutely. >> Their identity. >> Let's go back to this. So far, as I understand, because I am also not well-versed with history.
Of Kashmir, at least the history of Islam in Kashmir. I am still trying to understand the timeline, that the first Muslim Sultanate was in the 13th century, but the potential was already there because of the refugees, whatever external struggles were happening outside. Different people were coming. Then, eventually, in the 13th century, the first Muslim Sultanate was formed. Not an Islamic Sultanate.
Yes, right. Now the question still remains, how did the Islamic Sultanate come into being?
Where do we see the origins of Islam?
To be very honest, the Islamic Sultanate never ever came into being in Kashmir.
Never.
Never ever in its full peace and form. Never ever.
Hmm.
I'll give an example. Syed Ali Hamdani came.
Okay.
In the 14th century, Qutb-ud-din was the king at that time.
Hmm.
Qutb-ud-din literally married two sisters from the same family, two sisters.
Hmm.
Which is again, as per the rules of Islam.
Rules of Islam.
In the 14th century, it is written, Muslim. Sir Walter Lawrence's book, The Valley of Kashmir, pages 24 to 85.
He mentions that the Muslims here have nothing to do with Islam. Sir Walter Lawrence, who is not a Muslim, he says that when he differentiates between Arabs and these Muslims, he says these are not even Muslims.
They have the tag of Muslim, but everything else is different.
Who are they looking at when they say this?
Kashmiri Muslims.
At what time, meaning?
At the time when the book was written. At the point of writing the book, he came much earlier, right? Think about it, you came here 700-800 years ago.
Hmm.
At that point of time, he says, imagine the 13th, 14th century.
When there is a Muslim dynasty here, he says these are Muslims in name only.
Hmm.
Islam has not yet come into them because when I compare them with the Arabs, or when I debate with the Arabs about them, they don't even consider them Muslims.
Hmm.
So, if, let's say, since you mentioned that the Islamic Sultanate never existed.
Yes.
We see some sparks. During the time of Zain-ul-Abidin and Sikandar, we see some sparks.
Hmm.
When do we gradually see Islamic elements?
Yes, I'll come to the Islamic elements. I told you about Rinchan.
At that time, in the minority, you know.
Who were they? Muslims. Okay. When Rinchan came, Shahmir also came.
Shahmir saw the refugees, he, you know, gave them the valley of Sodavara, Gurez to live in.
Okay.
There, in Davar, he constructed a mosque, whatever the matters were, and a small Muslim population was formed in Malik Shahi.
Okay.
When Rinchan came here seeking refuge.
At the same time, what happened was that Suha Deva, Zulju Khan, the Mongols, they invaded at that point of time.
They plundered everything.
Where is this happening? This is happening in Kashmir. Mongols.
Yes, Mongols came here, Zulju Khan.
Wow, yes.
Mongols, by the way, Mongols are only successful invaders.
Exactly, only successful invaders. No one else succeeded. If people say that it's happening by the sword, then the Mongols should be here, I swear to God.
Because they were the only successful invaders. They plundered here for nine months. They raped hundreds and thousands of women. They killed hundreds and thousands of men. The wife of Suha Deva was Kota Rani, her son was Ravana Chandra. They took refuge in Lar. Lar, you know, is in our district, in Ganderbal. It was earlier called Lahor.
Hmm.
They took refuge in the fort of Lar. Only then did they survive, and he himself fled to Kishtwar.
Hmm.
To save himself. And at that time, what happened? Rinchan was already part of the army.
Shahmir was already part of the army.
They gained their power at that time. For nine months, whatever fights they did, anyway, they became the heroes. Even though no one won at that time, the Mongols won. But do you know what's interesting?
When Zulju Khan was returning, through the Banihal road, towards Hindustan, his entire army died there.
And in the mountains.
They perished in the mountains. Kashmir was the only place, the only army that came to Kashmir.
Could not go back.
This is very interesting.
And what happens? Rinchan gains power. Do you know, it reminds me of the Mongols. When the Mongols go to Baghdad.
Yes.
And so, I think the most terrifying, gangster-type scene of the Mongols, for me, is this: they used to send this letter. So they would give you three conditions. Exactly. I remember when I was studying Islamic history, I was quite fascinated. I thought, wow, the way they write, they terrify you with that.
Hmm.
The way they write. And this also is, I mean, if you think it through a little, it is able to give you an answer to one more question. If the Mongols were such a powerful force, who conquered almost half of the world, and then they also married, it's not like that. You must know about Genghis Khan. If ideology survives by force.
Then so the same argument goes to Kashmir, the same argument goes to the mainland. If Islam had come there by force, like the Mongols brought it.
So how is Islam surviving? But they are not surviving. Exactly, right. I know Mongols did come there, but they are surviving. They are surviving. Such a small word. It's like.
I mean, people are giving their lives for it.
If someone comes to my mother and says, you are oppressed, you wear a burqa, or you wear a niqab on your face, we will beat her with a broom and throw her out. I mean, that is not survival.
Yes, exactly.
So, see, that is a problem. See, where were we? Rinchan.
Yes, we were talking about Amritnaz, how Islamic elements are gradually being introduced into Kashmiri society. Then.
Yeah. So what happened during Rinchan's time? Until then, by the way, small Sufi saints had already arrived. There are accounts where Karota was some kind of king. I don't remember his full name. He invited, he sent a letter to the Persian king and told him to send a Muslim from your side who can teach us these things, about Muslims. And at that time, there was a person, Fatullah.
He translated the first Quran into Kashmiri.
And that was during the reign of the Hindus.
The Quran was translated for Kashmiri masses. Wow. In what language did he translate it?
He probably translated it from Arabic to Persian, and then from Persian to Kashmiri, because Kashmiri had become half Persian by then.
So he did it in Kashmiri.
Wow, during the reign of a Hindu ruler. And accounts of Hindu rulers come that they invited at that time, meaning, send someone who makes us understand all these things.
To the masses.
So, I said, Kashmir's flavor was very unique. They accepted everyone.
Hmm.
But this very thing also led to their downfall later.
Okay.
That's a different matter.
Okay, great.
Even if it's a great thing, I revere it. I admire it.
But you should always have boundaries for your own identity.
Why?
Respectfully.
Because our judge's, our judge's motivators, they say, if you accept everything.
Yes.
Then you don't have "I". You don't believe anything.
Yeah, if you accept everything, then that thing is finished. So we were talking about Rinchan.
So Rinchan comes into power when this issue of Zulju Khan is going on.
And he marries Kota Rani.
Okay.
Suha Deva's wife.
Wife.
Suha Deva returns. He thinks maybe something will happen or not, but he fails.
Okay.
Alright.
Rinchan becomes the king.
King.
And he was a Buddhist. A Buddhist king, meaning at that time.
He was not Muslim, not Muslim. He was not Hindu.
Hmm.
Now, what happens? It is said about Rinchan that he was very inquisitive. He loved to be in gatherings of knowledge.
Every evening, there were royal courts of Buddhists, Hindus, and other religions, saying, come, teach me.
What is the issue? To reach the truth.
Now, there are multiple accounts of this. One account says that Rinchan wanted to become a Hindu. But Dharmasen, a Brahmin, did not agree to make him a Hindu. I mean, I do not believe in any authenticity in that, because I think Jogi Raja, in Rajatarangini, which he repeated, wrote it because of whatever biases.
Which I believe.
Because a Brahmin is telling a king, I will not make you one.
Okay? So what is lacking in the king? That other Brahmins will not make him.
And the second thing, if there was a problem with Rinchan converting to Hinduism, then before that, a family member from Vaitah had already come. Okay? I don't know what his name is, Nihil Kalakpur or something like that. He had already converted to Hinduism.
So when there was no issue with him, what was the issue with Rinchan?
So this debate is brought up that Ashok did not accept him as a Hindu, hence he became a Muslim. But the truth is, he was so inquisitive. He used to ask questions to multiple people in his court.
To reach the truth.
But he never got satisfied.
And if you look at Rajatarangini, after that, Jogi Raja, Vivas, another historian, you can say. And they greatly uplift Hindu history. No one has seen it, because they see the decline of Hindu society and the rise of, if not Islam, at least Muslim society. So that was also a big reason.
Yeah, a reactionary historical point of view. No. Just like you mentioned in the very beginning, who writes history?
That's very important.
Who had the power to write?
Hmm.
And not just power, but the socio-economic or socio-political structure was ready for it, that it propagated that history. It's a question.
Exactly. There's more to it. What is that you are trying to achieve by writing that?
That is pretty.
See, Umar writes history, I also write history. We are both from the same place.
Hmm.
Umar's history gains momentum, mine does not. So the question has to be asked.
Why did yours gain momentum? Why did your history get support from the socio-political system? Why not mine?
Absolutely.
Who had the power? So anyway, Rinchan, he becomes, sorry, he tries to find the answers.
And at the same time, Syed Sharafuddin Abdul Rahman, famously known as Bulbul Shah.
Okay. By the way, Kashmir did a number on him too. They actually called him Bilal.
Okay.
He, meaning, he is attributed to Bilal, may Allah be pleased with him. He was so great in Islam.
Meaning, in his love for the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, that he was known by the name of Bilal. Later, he was called Bulbul.
So we call them Bulbul Shah. Anyway.
Rinchan is in his inquisition, asking questions, troubled, what is the reality, what is not the reality. He has an encounter with Bulbul Shah. One day, he woke up in the morning, he saw a Sufi saint praying, in meditation. He goes out to him and asks the questions. Do we have any account of where Bulbul Shah himself is from?
Bulbul Shah has multiple accounts. But the major account of Bulbul Shah comes from Turkestan.
From Turkestan.
Yes. They say Turkestan, Persia. Then some people say he was from Baghdad, by the way. But nonetheless, the major account is from Turkestan. He was from Turkestan.
So what is the point? He meets Bulbul Shah.
Hmm.
They talk, questions and answers happen. He gets satisfied. He accepts Islam.
Okay.
The first ruler who converted to Islam was Rinchan.
And it was because of pure inquisition. Okay. There is another account of this, by the way. Rinchan was very close to Shahmir.
Because when the rebellion happened, other issues happened, they were together at that time.
Right.
So some accounts say that Shahmir attracted him to accept Islam.
Because Shahmir had a good population of Muslims. But I don't agree with the second one as much. Because Shahmir was also pleasing the Hindus at that time, because he also gave his daughters to Hindus. So he was not just about Muslims. Hindus have praised him.
Suha Deva, when Shahmir was under him, praised him. Shahmir was a chief minister under Suha Deva. He praised him then.
So I revere, I agree with the first point of view that because of the encounter with Bulbul Shah, he became a Muslim. And then Rinchan married Kota Rani, the wife of Suha Deva, and her son, Ravana Deva, also accepted Islam.
Okay.
Yes. So this son, or brother-in-law, he voted for Islam. And thus, the first major conversion to Islam started. First major conversion.
Actual conversion.
Not by the sword.
Hmm.
Not by force.
By curiosity.
By curiosity. And by then, the ground had been somewhat prepared.
And one more thing, the second element that is strongly narrated is that in the 9th, 10th century, there was a great demand for Asian horses in Kashmir.
Okay.
Great demand. So Asian horses. Now, see, Kashmir was the central route towards every other region.
You have to go to the Silk Route.
It's still there today.
It's still there, right? Meaning, it was a central area around that. So there was constant interaction. So some people say that through trade, through the trade of horses, Sufis came, Muslims came, they came and they were preaching Islam. And let me tell you something interesting.
In Tarikh-i-Shahi, it is written that the Brahmins of Kashmir were also mediators.
And they even kept.
Muslim butchers.
Yes, Muslim butchers. So that they themselves could eat meat.
Yes.
Because they didn't like to do it themselves.
Yes, okay.
So they kept Muslim butchers. Marco Polo also said this.
And if anyone thinks that a Muslim said this to Marco Polo, read Marco Polo. Marco Polo wrote that they have kept Muslims as butchers, but they themselves also eat.
Okay.
Bulbul Shah, besides him, who were other figurative or famous saints, important saints that we see during this period?
During this period, there were very few who were at the level of Bulbul Shah. Some accounts mention that because of this event of Bulbul Shah, 10,000 people converted to Islam here.
And there was a huge number.
10,000.
Yes.
And the majority of them were from the noble clergy.
From the ruling class.
Okay. After this, some others came, like Syed Tajuddin.
Hmm. Syed Simnani came.
Syed Hasan came. Syed Haider came. By the way, Kulgam would not have become Muslim, the people of Kulgam would not have become Muslim if Simnani Sahib had not gone there. It is because of Simnani Sahib that those people became Muslim.
Absolutely. Because of Tajuddin Sahib, this area of Pampore, etc., became Muslim. Because of Syed Haider Sahib, these vicinities of Kulgam, Srinagar, these areas became Muslim. So there were, no doubt, some, you know, good figures. But then the second wave, this was the first wave of conversion.
It has not come by the sword yet. It has not come by force. It has not come by killing and slaughtering anyone.
It was all because of these events. The second wave started when Syed Ali Hamdani, may Allah have mercy on him, came here. No figure in the history of Kashmir can match the aura, the charisma, the work, and the favor he has done on this. Before we talk about Syed Ali Hamdani Sahib.
Until now, for history, if somebody from our audience has to read, because you spoke about 17 different things, if you recommend major accounts for our audience, so that they can start reading themselves regarding the history of Kashmir, what would you suggest?
Read everything.
No biases. Read everything yourself, see everything, extract the narrative, and then understand. I am sure of that. Tarikh-i-Shahi, Rajatarangini, whether it's Kalhana's or Jogi Raja's.
Okay. Nil.
Read the translation by K.N. Pandita. You must read that.
Professor Hangoo. You must read him. Professor Riffi. Oh, that man is wow.
You have to read Professor Riffi. Sufism in Kashmir, that's the name of his book.
Okay. Ashrafani's Islam in Kashmir. You must read that.
Kashmir: The Sultans. You must read that book.
And Mohibul Hasan Sahib's book. You must read that.
Okay.
These are some authors, some people whose names I have taken. You have to read them.
Okay?
No matter what.
If you want to reach the truth.
Okay.
Alright. Yes. You have to look at the mainstream and let your emotions run high. Let your identity be torn apart. You can do that.
But if you want to approach it academically, you have to open all the books. The name of the major victory is.
If we find any links to all these books, you will be able to see them below this video. Whatever we could find, so that you can click on it and go directly. Either download it if it's open source, or if it's not open source, then you can go to Amazon. We will add the links there if available, and you can buy it.
Yes. Let's go to the one and only Syed Ali Hamdani, may Allah have mercy on him.
Yes.
Why did you say that no one's contribution was like his, and with the timeline, because we are going from the 8th century until now.
11th, then 13th.
Yes, now 13th.
Now we come to the 14th.
Syed Ali Hamdani Sahib.
The people of the Shahmiri dynasty are still ruling.
Yes.
And the Shahmiri dynasty was a dynasty of Islam by name.
But it was nothing.
As compared to what Islam was.
Because of the fact that scholars of that time write that in the 14th century, Muslim women here were still worshipping idols.
Hmm.
There was still a custom here that one woman would marry six brothers, five brothers. That was a custom, which was not a part of Islam.
Just to cut you off, because this is a tradition here in Kashmir, so that no one feels that we are saying something to any Shahmiri brother.
Yes, we are taking history and its account as it is.
Exactly.
Right, so we are not attacking any community or caste. Just telling you how history progressed so that we can understand a little bit when we try to understand our history. See, the identity of the Shahmiri brothers right now, whether it has a link from the past or not, that is a different story. Yes, they are like those people who were Shahmirs, Sultan Shamsuddin, you know, we are used to it, right? We are all from there. We are not converts. Exactly. It's my surety that, you know, someone might think... No, no, that's correct. So the objective of the video should be achieved, that we just try to understand our history, regardless of how it happened, we will tell it. And not only that, they can just verify it. That's why we gave you the links and the accounts of the books. From here, we... Absolutely. So no confirmation, and you can question the author. No. So what happens is that the Shahmiri dynasty is ruling, but in the Shahmiri dynasty, as I said, at that time, by the way, Sir Walter Lawrence came when the Shahmiri dynasty was here, he gave that statement that they are called Muslims, but they have no connection with real Muslims. Okay. During this time, some Sufis were coming, saints were coming. That matter was going on through trade. And actually, the reason for Islam being accepted in the mainstream of Kashmir was also that the structure here was very rigid. Rigid structure. Very rigid structure. Rigid structure. Rigid. Yes, sir. There were 64 Kram. Here, Kram, 64. Meaning 64 different castes and they had 64 different jobs, and we had to do the same work from birth. Wow. People were not even allowed to trade here. The lower people, by the way, like Shudras. Okay. They were not called Shudras here, but Chandals. Okay. Chandals were not allowed to trade. To do other things. Was it because when there was a Hindu structure here, they used to follow the same Smriti? Manu Smriti, which the main line followed. Yes, not to that extreme, but yes. But they were... Yes, it was there, whether in trade, whether in political powers, whether, you know, in social structures, this was a big problem here. That's why I said Buddhism was accepted here because of that religious structure. And then Buddhism also became the same. The way Hinduism was functioning at that time. There was dominance of Brahmanical, you know, culture here. And then what happened was that against that structure, when an alternative structure comes, which gives answers to your spiritual being, which gives answers and solutions to your economic being, which gives answers and solutions to your political beings, it gets accepted. This is a very big reason. And imagine, those people who were not even allowed to do any business, thousands, not thousands, but lakhs of people, Islam, Muslim traders gave them work in papier-mâché. Pashmina. Shawl making. Woolen clothes. Imagine, papier-mâché, shawl making, you know, til, these are all works. These Muslim traders who came here gave them work, saying, "Do it, we have no problem." Imagine, if a society, a community, an ideology shows you so much acceptance, treats you as your equal, gives you an egalitarian view, it will be accepted. At that point of time. And in fact, before that, such issues arise. There was a king. This is mentioned in Shahi. By the way, K.N. Pandit has translated it. There was a king during the Hindu rule in Kashmir who became so addicted to luxury, so addicted to money, that he put his daughters into prostitution. Mom. Wow. Wow. I mean, you have to understand how values penetrate, how they are accepted. So from the 8th to the 13th century, a large gap had been created, through Sufis, through dervishes. Or in fact, there was a lot of corruption in between. But nevertheless, fertile land had been prepared. Wanted to reform and wanted to. But when Syed Ali Hamdani came, at that time, the Islamic identity or Muslim identity of Kashmir was in tatters. Not to go against anyone, but here, a mixture of Sufism and Yoga was going on. And when Syed Ali Hamdani came, he saw that the king here had married two sisters. So what would be the condition of the masses below? So he first invited him, and Qutbuddin accepted the invitation. He became his disciple. He divorced one sister and remarried the other sister as per Islam. The problem going on below was the same: Yoga plus Tantric, that ideology plus Sufi ideology was being mixed. Music was also allowed. Dancing and singing were also allowed. As it comes about women, idol worship was also allowed. If a saint was in the house, his worship was also allowed. And Syed Ali Hamdani went against that. The work he has done, I swear, justifies him being titled as Amir-e-Kabir Shah Hamdan, Ali Sani, Bani Musavani. He was alone. First, he sent some of his disciples to Baghdad to check whether this land is fertile enough to sow seeds. Then he came here with 700 disciples, and he did not just give this invitation, he directly challenged the common people and the sultanate, and then started bringing change. Upside now, we... At that time, the nobles and clergy started accepting Islam. And even at that time, it is clearly stated that the kings of that time, Qutbuddin, or the nobles and clergy, did not even wear Muslim clothes. Their attire was also Hindu, Buddhist. And all of those things. There are some major events, particularly in the case of Syed Ali Hamdani, may God have mercy on him. You can say it. Like a major, major event, I told you about the king, Qutbuddin. A major event comes for us when Syed Ali Hamdani, a very famous Sufi here, who was from the Rishi order. They were Rishis. By the way, these were indigenous Sufis here. But they were not completely into the form of Islam. It was a mixture, as I said, at that time. The mixture of Sufism, meaning Islam, mixture of Yoga, mixture of Tantric ideology, all these things. It had become a mixture at that time. So a major event was that Syed Ali Hamdani went into a gathering where these Rishis used to gather, invited them. Most of the Rishis accepted Syed Ali Hamdani's view, and those people then came into that, what we call the flavor of Islam, the flavor of Islam at that point of time. Wow. And then the difference they created in the masses, the right spirit of Islam, the distinction between halal and haram, mehram and ghair-mehram, right and wrong. The distinction of Tawhid. No one else had brought this here in this region until now. So if I say, or if I say that the rise of Islam itself, within the masses, if you look at it, on a very large scale. That starts with Syed Ali Hamdani. Because the spirit was not of Islam, it was not of Syed Ali Hamdani. The aura was still symbolic. They were symbolic. It was a mixture, not in its true essence. Because, see, Islam was not brought to Kashmir by first-generation Muslims. Yes. Not even by second-generation Muslims, to be very honest, not like that. Qasim failed, didn't he? Mobin Qasim. Second-generation Muslims couldn't bring it either. Even third-generation couldn't bring it here. Islam came from Persia, from the surrounding people, from those small chunks of Arab mercenaries, or those who started taking refuge here. So you cannot accept that the true picture of Islam was present here at that time. They were Muslims, yes, but it was not the true picture of Islam here at that time. So the true picture of Islam, which relates to the Prophet, peace be upon him, was initiated by Syed Ali Hamdani. Okay. He built so many Khanqahs and mosques in every nook and cranny, Syed Ali Hamdani, within a period, within a brief period, for a few years here. Literally, a few years. Baramulla, Pampore, Budgam, you know, Kulgam, everywhere he went and made mosques and started spreading. Wonderful. He placed his 700 disciples here, and their sons were Mir Muhammad Hamdani. Who converted Sikandar's Prime Minister, Subha, to Islam. As you know, by the way, it is said about Sikandar that Sikandar broke temples. Yes. Sikandar was a Muslim king. Yes. Right. Just. So after this dynasty, I know. So it is said that he broke temples, did this, that, and the other. It was in its true essence, the Prime Minister of Sikandar, whose name was Subha, when he converted, his name was Saif Ali. He started propagating again. As for the temples and idols, Sikandar supported it. I am not justifying Sikandar here at any cost. But I am saying that who initiated going against the Brahmins during Sikandar's time? Okay. It was a very Hindu who got converted. A converted Hindu Prime Minister. So far, what I have understood is that a space was already created for people for this reform and change. Yes. Okay. But those people who were not happy with this change, meaning people who did not convert. Yes. Okay. How do we justify, how did we create space for them as a Muslim society after Shah Hamdan? See, I told you, the flavor of Kashmir from before was very tolerant with everything. Okay. See, Buddhism came against Brahmanism. But it was accepted here. Brahmins were living, Buddhists were living. Islam was allowed for Islamic people. They were given space to live here. Acceptance was already there. So this is the flavor of Kashmir from before. There is no doubt about it. Now, during Sikandar's time, things had gotten a bit bad. To be very honest. I said Subha was his Prime Minister. He converted. He started attacking Hindu ideology, Hindu temples. At least you see, this breaking of temples was not something new. If you look at Harsha, and he is signing, he also broke quite a few Buddhist temples. Absolutely. And it was for their own power and glory. It was not for religion. Exactly, that's what I'm saying. So we are not justifying it. But we are saying that, you know, it was the power of history. It's not that out of nowhere, because it was Sikandar and his army below them who did it. Every king tries to maintain his rule, tries to make sure his narrative prevails. The narrative against him does not emerge. So if he is a Hindu king, he will try to support and uphold the Hindu narrative. If he was Buddhist, he will try to uphold Buddhism. If he was Sikandar, then... He will try to uphold Islam. Because as far as I remember, and because it was a religious society, the legitimacy for the kings came from the temples. So what did you do there? Either you would break the deity, or you would say, "Look, this is now with me. I am your lord." This was the nature of mostly Hindu society. Not only that, Muslims also had the same thing, right? Not the Muslims here. The famous scholars under them, they would accept them, and the masses would follow them. It was a kind of power dynamics. The way they ran their sultans. By the way, there were problems during Sikandar's time. To be very honest. But then Zain-ul-Abidin came. Yes. The finest and the greatest ruler Kashmir ever had. And Zain-ul-Abidin comes from Sikandar's... Yes, yes. After him, they come from some dynasty. Zain-ul-Abidin. Okay. Now, they are traced in different ways. By the way, this is not the Zain-ul-Abidin who is the great-grandson of Hazrat Ali. It's not that one, because people get very confused. Oh, this is that Zain-ul-Abidin. He came from here. No, no, that's not it. This is Daraja, or his name was also Zain-ul-Abidin. He is the first king through whom we can justify that there was a clear-cut space for everything. And the people who converted to Islam here did so of their own free will. Explicitly, Zain-ul-Abidin ruled for 40 years. Zain-ul-Abidin explicitly declared that if anyone was forcibly converted to Islam, anyone brought into any religion by force, they would have full immunity from me, they could go back to their religion. 40 years. Wow. And those Brahmins who were driven out from here during the time of Sikandar, during Subha and everything, he also invited them back, saying, "Come back, I give you immunity." In the 16th century, there are clear reports of 800 Brahmins in Kashmir even then, and they were preaching their religion, propagating their religion. Zain-ul-Abidin had also abolished the Jizya tax on Hindus or other non-Muslim populations. He stopped taking Jizya from them. Gave full space, and this is not a small thing. The sultanate runs on money. Absolutely. And a large chunk of money was coming from there. He abolished Jizya at that point of time. Now, I am not talking about right and wrong from Islamic principles here. I am talking from Zain-ul-Abidin's point of view, that the concept of space you gave, was there really space, was it the will of the people, did the non-religious, meaning the non-Islamic people, have the will here to do so? Raj, sorry, sorry to cut you out. Zain-ul-Abidin had Hindu ministers in his court. Yes. So that they could see his decisions. Yes. And he gave full support and full space, open space, that those who were forcibly converted could go back, full immunity from me. That is itself the nature of Islam. This reminds me of Jizya. Just to tell you how big a deal this is. As much as you might correct me. I remember that during the Umayyads. Yes. During the Umayyads, it happens that now, because you go to Persia, you have covered North Africa from here. Central Asia has come. Now, at one point, it comes to a point where they stop people from reverting. Meaning, from coming back to Islam. Because their thinking was, if we don't charge Jizya, where will the money come from? And how will the state run? And if the state doesn't run, how will we manage our army and all? So this is a big thing when we talk about Jizya running your entire state. And this is the guy who is saying, "No, brother, you don't even have to pay Jizya. Stay who you are, even though if you don't want to be Muslims." And there's another issue with Jizya, isn't there? See, people think it was some kind of forced tax to live there, that you just had to pay it, and it was only for non-Muslims. Zakat is obligatory for Muslims, they have to pay it. For Muslims, if there is Zakat, Jizya was given for non-Muslims. And where was the difference coming? Why were these two taxes kept? It was because those people were not allowed to be part of the army. Those non-Muslims who paid Jizya. And Muslims had to be part of the army. They were kept as protection, as Zimmis, here. Now, what happened in between, we all know that. After the Rashidun Caliphs. After Imam Hassan, after Hussein Al-Sallam, whatever happened, we know what happened to Islam. Since then, the decline trend. That's why the incident of Palestine also happened, right? This decline trend has been going on for the last 1300-1400 years, and its manifestations have been happening not today, but for many centuries. Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Palestine. So these are the manifestations. What we did, it was from the time of Yazid. But my point was, Sultan Zain-ul-Abidin gave so much space to everyone there to accept. In his court, there were Buddhists. In his court, there were Hindus. In his court, there were Muslims. He abolished Jizya. Sultan Zain-ul-Abidin is telling you that you will have your own Hindu judges, and Modi ji is saying you will have UCC. That's a problem. See, let's differentiate. Yes. But anyway, this is so far. The interesting thing is, you know, when Sultan Zain-ul-Abidin, sorry to interrupt you, half. When this announcement was made, and he ruled for 40 years, from 1330 to 1370, I guess. Sorry, 1430 to 1470, I guess. So when this rule lasted for 40 years, do you know how many people converted back, meaning went back to their religion? How many people? There are accounts that say it wasn't even in the thousands. Honestly. Wow. Obviously, you had that structure, that 500 years of rule, people were ready because of the legal structure and the societal structure. The legal structure aligns with your nature, Islam's. Okay. In one way, the Sufis did the most work here, those who came as preachers here, they satisfied people's minds, hearts, and souls towards the truth. Okay. So people didn't go back. It showed this. It shows that people were not converted by force. People converted of their own free will. Yes, there might be some cases during the time of Sikandar or somewhere here and there, but they are very fragmented cases. They are patches here and there. They do not represent the mainstream attitude. Absolutely. They did not represent the street narrative. So far, we have talked about belief, we have talked about legal structures. Now I want to know, now this other very big ideology towards us, what were the changes in the culture itself? This is something fascinating. As I have studied, the culture of Kashmir today is the indigenous culture of Kashmir, to be honest. The words we use, the things you have learned, they are not from here, they are brought from Persia, they are not your own. Kahwa, we all know it. Okay. Kahwa, we know. Shawl is a Persian concept. Shawl, buff, nabat, shirin, rishta, rishta. Yes, they call it parasta. Here, prasta, agashwata. All this is from Persia. All this is from Persia. Papier-mâché. Papier-mâché, do. Til. Wow. All these things come from Persia. Yard, moj. Mozi means mother. That word, it comes from Persia. That's why we were supporting Iran for that, saying, "Oh, we have to attack them too, or what?" Because of the Silk Road, as far as I remember, the samovar, but maybe it comes from Russia. I don't know exactly, but as far as I remember, samovar comes from Russia. Yes. So, see, that's a problem as well. Now, if you take like 1000 words, 1000 different concepts in the Kashmiri language, Kashmiri culture, 900 will be from Persian. The influence. And that's why I told you in the beginning that this problem. See, this is a problem. It means that whoever dominates you, you will bow down to them. Yes, you have to accept that. This inferior psychology. Yours. It means you don't have your identity. You cannot establish boundaries for your identity. And this is what I am saying. This is what has caused Kashmiris to be ruined every time. Here, you know, the Delhi Sultanate was going on, before that Shahmiri was going on, then the Chakras came. Well, they were indigenous, Maraj and Chakras. But nevertheless, the oppression they inflicted is also not hidden from history. It is recorded in history. In history, then the Mughals come, you salute them. Then the Durranis come, the Afghans, you salute them. Then the Sikhs come. Dogra. Everyone. So this is a problem. It's an identity problem. You are accepting everything. In recorded history, how long have indigenous people ruled? 17 years. 17 years. Yes. 70. That's it. That's all. Otherwise, Kashmiris have always been victims. Yes. Victims. Iqbal said, "O Allah, I don't have a problem with their slavery, they are happy in slavery, I have a problem with this." Wow. That same weight doesn't fit anywhere here. And arrogant speech. It's 17 years, and that too Chakras and Masood. And they were not the majority, they were a minority. They blocked Shias. The only time in history when purely, purely indigenous, meaning their ancestry was also not coming from elsewhere. Imagine, Masood, with the nation. Yes. This is an identity crisis, and arrogance. When these things couple, they are special kinds of chemicals, you know, that get into mismanagement. When they couple, then there is ruin. That's why I told you, boundaries have to be there. Identity has to be clarified for people. Anyway, today there is someone, after 50, 500 years, someone else will come, then after 600 years, someone else will come. You can't salute everyone, can you? No. That's a problem. It means, just like you said, and that... That if you accept everything and you stand for nothing. Stand for nothing. Exactly. Okay, I will stop you there. Inshallah, in the next episode, we will go from Zain-ul-Abidin to the Durranis, and from there to the Sikhs, from there to the Dogras, and we will figure out how we reached Farooq Abdullah. That was a big [laughter]. No, Umar Abdullah sahib. Today, Umar Abdullah sahib, Mufti sahib, Mufti sahib is not there. His daughter, who might become CM, what? I, that Mufti. No, his child. Yes, Mufti, who knows? We will have to see. So, hope you liked this episode. Inshallah, our effort will be to cover this episode by episode, point by point, through the timeline. This entire origin of Islam and the history, including Kashmir, till the present landscape. So that we can understand how the narratives being shaped about us are happening. There is a famous saying that if you want to fix a problem, you need to understand what the problem is in the first place. That is the first step. And this is our first step, what is the problem? Thank you, brother. Inshallah. So much, sir. It's an honor to be... Absolutely. We will meet very soon. Inshallah. Inshallah. Okay, take care of yourself. And if there is any other question you have, you have the comment section, comment there, and we will get back to you. And if there is anything else you want us to cover, please comment, and we will get back to you. Salam Rahmatullah wa Barakatuh.