Thera

My dad.

What a day. So, um, so I I got your message and I wanted to understand. So, you guys want to meet today and Wednesday?

Yeah, that's right. We wanted to double up.

Okay. Was everything okay?

No.

No.

Okay. It's like that's why we're doubling up for sure. Okay. Well, um, we can do it. So, um, how are you guys this week? What's been going on?

Uh, Matt moved in, um, uh, over this weekend. So, I took time off work. Um, he's obviously off and we moved in over the weekend together. Um, like built a bookshelf, like did all the things. Um, got him settled, like moved stuff into storage, like so that's um, been successful. um did a pretty good job like throughout that time of like speaking with each other like uh like negotiating like uh just you know like just not like creating like a a chaotic environment and then yesterday it came to a head again.

So that's what we wanted to talk through. Um the issue uh it it wasn't an issue for me necessarily but I guess like it started from this. So, um, in his sleep, Matt punched me, um, in the arm on, um, Saturday night. Um, and so this is the second time that he's like done something like that. He needed me the other time. And we were laughing about the first time. It was fine. I told him in the morning like, "Hey, you punched me." And I was kind of annoyed, you know, like a little bit. I'm like, "Hey, like I'm I'm, you know, I don't want this to be a thing and like keep getting like hit or whatever in the middle of the night." And um, he apologized like definitely was very sorry. I know he is. cuz I know he didn't mean to do it. Um, and uh, for some reason I just kind of was still harboring something like I I knew that I I knew all the things but it's like something about it still was irritating me and um, but we moved past it, went to church um, that morning and um, uh, I felt I guess I'll just speak from my experience um, that I I wasn't feeling well. I'm starting my period today so I was just quiet. I was getting really nauseous in the car. Um he was holding my hand. I was holding his hand back. Um he asked if I was okay. I said, "Yeah, I'm just feeling nauseous." He asked what I needed. Um we got to church. I um was holding his hand like I usually do, putting my hand on his knee, like leaning into him, all the things. Um I thought showing that I was um being like uh just connecting um talked uh about the sermon with him a little bit afterwards. I think it was like about uh leaning saying yes, like leaning into what like God wants for you. I was like, "Oh, like that like that was for and he was like, "Oh, I'm glad you caught that." Um, it was first Sunday, so we go and um uh do a potluck um uh after that. And like I I had a lot of anxiety. I am starting work. Um I have two weeks um you know, and then um off for the wedding. And um I have a lot of stuff that I have to get done and you know, like just anxiety about going back like okay, like work just it it's been stressing me out. It's been really difficult honestly and um just kind of getting those Sunday scaries. Um, but I haven't been to church for a while and I know it's important to Matt. So, I wanted to make sure I stayed engaged, did all that, you know. Um, and then, uh, we went to leave and, uh, go pick up lunch like we normally do and then come back to the valley. And I I think I was sitting there laughing to myself kind of quietly like thinking of the image of him punching me. And then I said, "What an ass like to him." And then I was about to go into like what I was laughing to myself about. And that completely did not go well. Um, he got really upset with me. Well, not really upset, but you said like

I wasn't really upset. I just

I I just I said, "Please don't call me that." I go, "I don't want to be called an ass." I said, "If I said that to you, there would be a problem." And you go, "No, there wouldn't." And then like we Yeah. It toppled from there, but I don't I don't want to detract from your thing.

Yeah. Um, I uh I think I'd been getting gradually irritated maybe over the past couple days because I I felt like Matt wasn't practicing the asking questions part. Um, and there had been other instances that of course I can't remember um of him kind of jumping to a conclusion versus like trying to ask me like is this what she meant? And I think that's why I answered um you know like I would have preferred if you could have said it like this and like also no I wasn't for the record. like, "No, I wouldn't have been mad um if you would have said that to me because I knew my intent behind like what I said." Um and uh I think we sat in silence for a little bit. He apologized. I think we were okay when we came back, but then I forget where things started to devolve a little bit more cuz it it tends to to happen like that. I feel like we something kicks it off and then like we spend the rest of the night like continuing to argue and like more things come out and I feel like some some things are still not like really getting addressed like with Matt and um I feel like he is like harboring a lot of things and like feeling um like he just can't bring him up like he can't talk to me like I'm not really like sure what he is looking for. So that was one of the things that we wanted to talk through. I think I asked him like, "What is it that you need to see like when we're arguing um to make you feel comfortable in the way that like we're expressing ourselves?" Cuz I feel like I tried in a lot of different ways yesterday to stay calm, to ask questions, to um seek understanding, um repeat back like certain things that he was saying. And um it just was not hitting. And then after a certain point it like even kind of like it it felt like he hit a point and he kind of had like a panic attack I think. And um it just feels like um yeah I just don't know how how it escalated so much. And I think he he he just concerned me like I was just very concerned. I told him I was trying to understand him. we were sharing a lot of things and I think maybe he shared something that made him feel um vulnerable. Um, and he said like I I feel like I'm ch I'm telling you something that like I like he specifically said something um like I I have wanted to kill myself like because of this in the past and like you're taking it in this way or you're saying something um you're saying X about it and basically that I'm not taking it seriously or like oh critiquing him. It was critiquing him because I was saying oh I wish that you could be vulnerable in front of me but I wasn't saying it in that moment. I was just saying like I wish that I could understand like when you need me to be something and like as I said that your emotions are kind of the same when you're trying to be vulnerable versus like when you're like communicate it's just across the board and so I'm just like sometimes it's hard for me to like have a map and that's what I was trying to say but he was taking that as like I'm critiquing him and so that was of course very frustrating. Um and there was something else that happened too. It was um what am I missing?

Um,

Well, you can go. I've talked enough.

No, we No, everything. Yeah, I I I I wrote notes because it's easier for me. Um, yeah, but I I don't want to interrupt you. You can keep going.

No, I I I think that's Yeah, I think that's good for now. And I'll I'll chime in if I have something else.

Okay.

Yeah. So, hang on. Let me see. So, basically what happened, it was it was in the morning and um this is what I remember. I didn't write this part down, but um we were driving to church and she was very quiet. She told me that like I hit her last night. I thought she was kidding. I was like, "Oh my gosh, are you serious?" And I go, "You're joking, right?" And then she goes, "No, you you hit me." And then I was like, "I am so sorry." And she goes, "Yeah." And she was on the other side of the bed. I go, "Where did I hit you?" you you he punched me in the arm. And then like I freaked out. I'm like, "Are you hurt? Are you okay?" And um she was like, "No." She's like, "I'm fine." She's like, "It hurt." And I was like, "Oh, I had this like kung fu dream." And I was like, "I guess I did that in my dream." I was like, and I apologize. I was like, "I'm sorry." But what happened was we were driving to work and um to church. Yeah. We were driving to church and um when I was driving there like she was very quiet, was kind of giving me the silent treatment, but I was like, "You know what? Like I'm not going to make this about me. I think she's just going through something." And I checked in with her a couple times. I was like, "You okay?" I go, "Do you need anything?" And she was like, "Mm-" And then we went into church. It was like very quiet. We're not really talking to each other. And when we get there, I felt like she kind of had her arms crossed. And then eventually, you know, like I I leaned over and put my hand on her leg and she started to like warm up and everything. So, we were we hadn't I felt like we hadn't really had like a lot of conversation, but she felt differently. But when we were driving, um I started I thought we were like past it, so I started to laugh and she was like, "I don't find it funny." Or something like that. I don't remember exactly what the context was, but she goes uh she goes, "Yeah." She goes, "You hit me last night." She goes, "What an ass." And then I was like, "Hey." I go, "Can you not like talk to me like that?" And I was like, "I don't want you to call me an ass." And I was like, and then she basically what happened was she said I was um she said I was taking it personal. And I go, "Well, the reason why I'm taking it personal is because we weren't really laughing throughout the day." I go, "There was like this silent treatment that I was getting." And I was like, "When you say that," I go, "It makes me think that you are um it makes me think that you're harboring this resentment." And I go, "And it it doesn't feel good." I go, "It doesn't feel like a joke." So, she started to say, she goes, "I don't feel safe um over something." She said, "Cuz you're reacting." So, I went into the room when we got back home. I tried to apologize to her and um she I was like, "Hey, we can get through anything. I believe we can get through anything." And then she meant she brought up she goes, "It makes me wonder if the relationship's going to work or something like that." She said something to that. And then it's I started to be like, "Well, what do you mean?" And then she goes, "You know when we get in these things?" And then she goes, "Don't you feel the same?" And I was like, "Yeah, I guess." And I agreed with her. And then something got brought up and she goes, "I don't know what it is with you." She's like, "It's like this." She goes, "I don't know if it's this fragile masculinity." And that pissed me off so much cuz it's like, "I hate hearing that." And she I go, "Why do you think that I have a fragile masculinity?" And she told me and then um she like I go I started to get upset because I go the reason why that bothers me, this is like where I get upset in these conversations. I go, "The reason why this bothers me." and I start telling my feelings and she starts getting defensive but then she tells me I'm being defensive and then when I start like trying to like it's like I'm screaming to be heard like I'm trying to say my feelings and she's like you're being vague and it's like I feel like I'm getting critiqued and I can feel like my body shutting down to where I'm like uh uh uh uh and it's like I start stuttering and like I start getting really angry. Um, and then I I told her this thing. I told her what the thing that she was referencing at night. I go, you know, I go, "It's hard being a man." I go, "Because like the reason why we want like someone to be nurturing to us." I go, "Is when we go out into the world," I go, "No one really cares about us." Like, they care about like what we do and what we bring to the table. Like, nobody cares about you when you're a man. I go, "This is not just me saying this." I go, "I have this conversation with my friends." I go, "I'm not suicidal, but I like I go in the past." I go, "The weight of that would make me want to kill myself cuz it's lonely being a guy." And I and I go and after I said that, she goes, "I wish you showed more vulnerability when you told me things like I can't see it in your face." And then I was like, like I started shaking cuz I was so angry. And she goes, "I'm not talking about in that moment. I'm talking about that." And like I started like hyperventilating cuz I was like I feel like I'm trying to share my feelings and it's like I'm like reliving it right now. But like when I share my feelings it's like I'm always defending my feelings like that this is how I feel and it's like that's not it feels like that's not okay how I feel or it gets weaponized against me or like I'm like or like I'm like there's like something wrong with me. And so I started like hyperventilating and she gives me this look. She goes are you okay? And then I was like, "Don't look at me like that." And look at me like I'm crazy. And I just started crying. And I was like, "I feel hopeless." And like today it's like I've just been shut down. I was like, "I don't want to argue." And I just overtly apologized. I was like, "I don't want to argue. Is everything okay? Like I can't argue right now." And she was really sweet. But like that's basically what got me to it is like I I feel like when I'm saying my feelings that they're not being heard. And in these arguments, I start talking about like what I feel and I'm like, "This is what seems like it's happening." And I'm calm at first, but then I feel like when she starts building, I get triggered. And then I start getting built cuz I can't be calm anymore when somebody's not hearing me. And then it gets turned around on me and it's like, "You're losing your temper. You're spiraling." And I'm like, I'm reacting to what you're doing. And that's what it feels like. And I I Yeah, that's that's I think Yeah, that's what's going on.

Okay. Well, um you know, I appreciate both you guys for sharing your thoughts and feelings, um as plain and clear as you guys can. Um what I hear from you guys is it sounds like you guys were on like in different spaces when you guys have spoke. Um, but I feel like before we dive into that, I mean, how are you guys doing right now?

I feel anxious honestly and like I don't really feel like I struggle with anxiety as much anymore in the way that I used to, but I feel like yeah, I feel like really anxious in my body, but you know, I'm okay. I'm just having anxiety, that's all.

I hear you. And what about for you, Lex?

I think I'm having a really hard time.

Yeah.

Okay. So, I don't know. I think instead of going at what occurred, I think it would be good for us to slow it down a bit and um trying to get to the root of the situation.

So,

Okay. All this stuff took place, but I mean this might sound I feel like for lack of better words, like what's really going on for you guys? I think like for me it's just like difficult to have conversations when it feels like there are certain things that can't get bought up um that like feel like it's going to make things very volatile. Um I'm trying to I I feel like a partner is somebody um that is going to say things that might be like difficult and like maybe no one's ever said to you before. Um, but it's like, hey, these are some things that I'm seeing. And um, it feels like I'm demonized for the things I say and the way I say it. And I like will admit that I'm maybe not the best with my delivery, but I am coming from a good place and I'm really trying to understand him. And so, um, it's just very hard. And I feel that, um, a lot of times when when Matt's trying to explain something to me, he uses like when he was talking about, um, like when when he says anything about like a man, he he uses it in the collective. So, it's like all men feel this and like like any man that you were to talk to would say this and like it makes me feel um like otherred and like like I'm like wrong and like strange and like I'm like um just different and like um yeah, like I think that's uh just what's been really hard.

I think for me the reason why I use the collective is because I get singled out. Like it's like I think you have maybe fragile masculinity and it's like I had no idea where that came from. And I go why? And she told me and I was like all guys feel like that. And so I'm like this is like something that like men deal with and it's like it's I I think my biggest frustration is like when we get in these arguments I'm like screaming to be heard. Like I'm like I'm very calm at first and I'm like hey this is D and then all of a sudden now I'm down like a different road and it's like the thing that I'm taking is starting to get back and it's like d and then I'm like no that's not what I meant. I'm trying to say this d and then okay now I'm down a different road and I'm defending three things now. Then I'm saying something now I'm on four roads. I'm defending four things about myself. Stop being defensive. And then I'm like I am not being defensive. And it's like and then all these arrows start getting and I'm like nothing that I'm saying is being heard. And finally it's like I lose my temper and I never like scream. I'm just like this is not what I'm saying right now. It's because I'm being misunderstood at such a high degree. Then it's like your tail spinning and it's like I feel like I'm questioning my reality and like I'm going crazy. Like I feel like everything that is being done to me, it's being told to me that that's what you're doing. And it's like I'm I'm just trying to be heard. Like I'm calm at first, but it's like I feel like I I feel like I can't argue. It's it's the I feel crazy when we get in arguments cuz I feel like I'm trying to be calm and say what hurt me or whatever. But it's like, well, maybe you're too sensitive or maybe you're like, and it's like I feel like I'm not getting hurt. And I feel like I'm going crazy cuz it's like no matter what I say, I feel like it's it's the wrong thing. Well, you should say it like this or you should do it like that. And I'm like I start to feel like Yeah. The easiest way I can describe it is I feel like I'm going crazy when we get in arguments. Like it's it's it's like I can't say anything, right? And I think that was my body shutting down last night like over like a panic attack because it's like I'm feeling like I cannot argue like I can't say anything right and then it's like I start stuttering and then that gets pointed out or that like that I'm not being clear that I'm being vague and it's like I'm just like yeah, it's like really difficult.

I'll say on um that note too that um I I feel that sometimes like me trying to understand more is misinterpreted as like getting him feeling like he's being critiqued and it feels kind of like I'm in like a neverwinning like spiral because like we're supposed to seek to understand but then when I try to do that if it's like not in like the proper right circumstance it's going to be taken the wrong way and I feel like I'm getting like contradicting direction sometimes. Like I said something last night at the hot tub like, "Hey, can you acknowledge like what I what like what I did here? I think I did something." And um I was like, "Hey, I just want to be acknowledged. I feel like sometimes you brush over like when I do things right and it makes me feel like I'm not seen." And he was like, "Oh, thank you so much for bringing that to me." Like, you know, keep doing that. Um I want to be able to fix that. And then but in the next you know moment like now that we're in an argument I guess and and I don't know but it just feels like when I now when I'm critiquing like now it's not okay and now I'm misunderstanding him and now like and then everything's like going and I'm like what I don't I don't know like I just I don't I don't know like what to do and like

I think it's cuz it's a harsh delivery and I think like at the hot tub it was like out of kindness and we were like sitting and listening to each other. I think those are the the different things.

I feel like it was a kind delivery still when I was saying like that's what I'm saying like I truly meant like hey I want to be able to understand you more. I wish that like I could see more of your vulnerable side but like that's what I'm saying like that was taken wrong and like it was in the right place. So, I don't know how I could have

I think it was because it was such a vulnerable thing and it's like I wish your face did more like I wish you showed more vulnerability on your face cuz like I was trying and it's like I had my head behind my hand and she goes, "You're real nonchalant." I go I took it back from behind my head. I go, "Okay, let's try this." And then I was like I tried to grab her hand and I looked at her and then I said, "I feel." And then I told her something that's like really difficult and she goes, "I wish your face showed more vulnerability." I didn't say like I didn't mean it in that moment. And so that's why I'm saying like I I was I was going off of the direction that I thought you wanted me to point things out to you, but then it's like like it's like I'm not getting clear direction, but then you get mad because you feel like I'm nitpicking you to like say things in a certain way. So it just again it's it just always feels like a no- win. Like I I don't I don't know how to like properly communicate with him.

So,

Um, what Ironically enough, it sounds like you guys are saying the same thing in the perspective of your guys' lives. You both are feeling unheard. You both feel like you guys are trying. You both feel like you want to be in a space where you can share how you feel or share your thoughts without it going left. And it sounds like again to like your guys and within your guys's lenses. And so I think we talked about it before about you guys growing into having your own language.

Yeah.

Meaning the both of you guys. And I think that is what's happening. And honestly, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised. Um, this is why people wait to get married because it's a lot of I mean, you guys have lived your own way for so long. And you know, if you didn't like something about a person, you stopped being their friend or you stopped dating them.

But what does it look like to really go through the fire with someone? And I think that's what you guys are experiencing. Um, and so with that being said, um, I think honestly that's just really needs to be worked on is you guys finding your language. What does this look like? Um, and honestly I can't answer that. That's really you guys, you know, are you guys going to be the people where you guys can say whatever, however, are you guys going to be the people where you are thinking before speak. Is it somewhere in the middle? Like really, what does this look like for you guys?

Um, I know a couple, they say whatever, however, and it's like, but they don't have a problem with it. And who am I to say anything because that's their marriage and they've been married for 10 plus years now. And then you have others that's like, you better watch yourself, you know? And then you might have some that's in the middle. So, I don't want to be redundant, but I really think that is what's happening. But what are your guys' thoughts?

I I can give like an example. So, like yesterday it was like uh she goes, "Oh," she she we were talking about something. She goes, "When you don't like it when I say such and such," she goes, "So, it's about your ego." And I was like, "That doesn't really resonate with me." And then she goes she goes, "You're not appreciating this revelation that we just had about your ego." And I go, "I didn't have that revelation." And then I started being like and she started to say that and she goes I just think that maybe there's this maybe. She goes there's this fragile masculinity. And then I go no. I go that's not true. And she goes cuz I go why would you think that? And she goes things that you've said in the past about like your exes and stuff like oh they say that I'm the best and everything. And I was like I never said that. And so it's like this thing that's like I feel like I have to defend myself in those moments. And it's it's like I I feel like I'm we're having two different conversations and maybe that's what she heard that I said with something, but I've never said that and I've never like meant that. And then, you know, like I think it's like these these things and then we it's a lot of those types of conversations within the argument to where now it's like it spirals and there's different it there's like 17 subthreads.

I think like where we get caught up is like in the details of stuff. Like I feel like I bought up something like Maine whereas like I think like maybe there's like an ego issue going on here and like can I be transparent with what we're talking about?

Uh yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Um I was saying that like I feel like you've like commented um certain ways on like the way that I've said little whatever. Like I like I call him like Papa Bear. Like I have my names and I say little Papa Bear. And so he was like, "Oh, I don't like when you call me little." or when I said little like

So here can I can I tell the story from my perspective?

Sure.

So there was a time when we first started having sex that I didn't want to be around her when I wasn't hard. I'm just going to be totally honest because it shrinks a lot. It's when it's not.

And so she was like, "Well, I like all parts of you." And so we're sitting in the bathtub one time and you know we're sitting in there. It's hot water, shrivels up. She she she bops it and she goes, "Your little penis." And I go, "Hey." I go, "Can you not say that?"

I go, "Because" And she goes, "Why would you think that you have a little penis?" I go, "I don't. I never have." I was like, "But when you say that, it makes me feel bad." She goes, "Well, you should be confident and you should know that I don't think that you have a little penis." And I go, "I get that." I go, "But" and then like we brought it up yesterday. And she goes, "When I brought that up," she goes, "Why would that bother you?" I go, "Babe," I go, "Nobody wants to hear little next to penis." I go, "That is a guy thing." I go, "You don't want to hear that." I go, "I could have a 16-in dick and you could say little." And then I'd be like, "Well, she's been with a guy that has a 19-inch dick." And then so now I'm thinking, well, I've never thought that it was little, but maybe it's little compared to her. Like, maybe she thinks it is because it's in conjunction with somebody else. And I told her that hurts me. But like she goes she goes, "Well, you've never felt that in the past." I go, "Never." And she goes, "Well," she goes, "You know, then you shouldn't feel that with me." And then I go, "Well, no one's ever said that to me and put that thought in my head." And so we started talking about, she goes, "What have girls in the past said?" And then she goes, "No." She goes, "Tell me exactly what they've said." And I've said that. I said that. And she goes, "Well, that sounds really egotistical." And I go, "You just ask me what they said." And you go, I know, but she goes, "It sounds douchy." And I go, "You just asked me." And now it's like I'm defending myself because you just asked me a question. I was honest. And then it's it's it's this whole thing. And then now I'm like I go, "Hey, look." And I try to be vulnerable. I go, "Can you just give me a word of affirmation?" I go, "That you like my dick." I go, "I just want to hear that." I go, "I feel like I need to hear it." And she goes, "Why do you need that word of affirmation?" And she goes, "Yes, I do." But it it becomes this defensive thing to where I'm like,

"Ah, I'm trying to be vulnerable and it's like I'm trying to be honest and then it's like

I've never had a complex at all, but no one has ever said little and penis next to me. It made me feel like shit."

But that's what makes me feel bad because then I'm like I've said that to other people in other relationships and it's not a big deal. And so it's just like it feels to me like that's what triggers like okay this person like might deal with like a bit of a complex and I'm just trying to not other like not make him like the bad guy but be like it's your problem but it's like could we explore this cuz then if we both accepted that or like maybe explored that like that can help us be able to have better conversations about it. But I feel like we get caught up in like it started here and like that's what I started talking about, but now um I misqued him about what he said in the past about his girlfriend. Now he's defending that because you know it's like now we're just fighting to be right and now um he wants to be assured about his size. And I was going to get to that, but I'm still talking about something over here. But now he's mad because I'm not assuring him in the moment right now. And now we're arguing about whether I assured you or not. And it's like it just keeps going. It's like we can never finish it and it's it's terrible honestly.

Yeah. Um it sounds like you guys are having the conversations, but you guys are speaking from your guys's world view.

Yeah.

And I don't think you guys are really hearing what the other is saying like one of those like you do but you don't and then there is the are not being curious enough. So honestly I get both of you guys. I mean when it comes to a man not to sound redundant but yeah I I hear you like like no guy wants to hear that. It's kind of like it's their pride and joy honestly I think because that's how society made it like and then you know what they carry. So I get that aspect as well as I get what you're saying Lex like I mean as he's as you mean feel like generalizing all men and you're like I know a few men that I talked to that never had this concern. So it's like then you start to wonder like is it a you thing? However, Matt is answering your question and he's not saying it's to him thing that he know other men, plenty of men to where he might feel like it's all men that don't like these comments. And so that's why I'm saying like you guys are having these conversations, but I think you guys are not fully hearing each other because you guys want to get your point across maybe or you guys are just used to your guys's world view and you might feel like your partner is like they still not really getting what I'm saying. And so because you feel like your world view is right, then they have to be wrong. But what if both your guys' points are true? I mean, there's people that call their partner or their friend ugly. Why are you ugly? Stop it. Or whatever. And to them, it's like, well, they know that they, you know, don't look ugly and so, okay, they're they accept it. But then you have others that also know that they're not ugly, but it's still a sensitive point because like, what person wants to hear ugly even if it's a joke? I don't know if that makes sense. I think another thing that happens too and like sorry I'm getting emotional again is that like I feel that like I've like done a lot of things to kind of like it feels like to come to his side and kind of like take on different things that maybe like doesn't completely make sense to me isn't something I do outside of this relationship and it feels like what you're suggesting is to have him like be a little bit more accepting and it feels like sometimes he's unmoving in like his way of like connecting with me. It's like I'm here and like I have to go and meet him over here. And like maybe you don't feel that way, but like it's just like sometimes with like those certain topics, it just feels like there's no room for like negotiating. It's just like this is how it is. Like everybody feels that way. and just like instead of like kind of trying to like understand and hear what I'm saying. But I'm not saying like and I'm also agree with you that I hear him and I wasn't doing it. But I think like that conversation happened like it was literally before we started seeing you. That's when it happened like a year ago and then like we've gone on but like it keeps happening and it keeps getting bought up where like he's asking about that or he's asking about me and other men. And so that's why I'm starting to like kind of just wonder like is there a deeper thing that's happening here and maybe like asking the question like would it matter if I kept like coming his way like is he ever going to see like my perspective on certain things or my point of view?

I think like I am willing to see her perspective, but it's like the problem is is I tell her something hurts me and she defends it and it it gets turned back on me. You're just insecure. You're just But I didn't say that.

You don't say that. You didn't you didn't you don't use those words, but like fragile masculinity. These these are all synonymous with that.

And so it's like I have never had a complex about my dick ever. And that's why I kept trying to tell her like this is like something you don't want to hear that. I go it doesn't matter what the size is. I go you don't want to hear that as a guy. And it's like I could not get her to see my thing. I'm like this hurts me. And it's like well why why does it hurt you if you've if other women don't think that and I don't think that. I'm like just please don't say that.

That's me trying to see that's me trying to understand you. I'm asking questions, but it feels like when I ask them, you're taking them as like me trying to like prove my point, but I really am just asking a question.

Got it. And I I think that sometimes I try to answer it, but then that's still not good enough. And it's like I answer and I'm like, well, because of this, and it's like, well, I don't think da da da da da. And then it's like it it becomes this thing like, well, shouldn't you be concerned? And she's like, why are you asking about other men? Is that is that connected with my trainer? I'm like, why would this even be connected with your trainer? like and then it's like these thoughts get put in my head and I retaliate to the thoughts because I have OCD and thoughts ruminate in my head and I can see where that's annoying but it's like when I'm telling somebody how to treat me over and over please just hear me and I'm like being like vulnerable and saying like I don't like this because but it doesn't feel like whatever I say is ever enough and it's like it gets turned back to where it's like like I feel like I've never had to defend myself this much Like I I I do get defensive because it's like I say something like if she tells me, "Hey, I really don't like that." And I'll be like, "Oh, okay." Um is there and she tells me why, it's like fine. Like I won't do that to you anymore. Like to me that's like the way I operate. Like if you tell me something hurts you, like I don't need a million justifications. Like and I could get if it's like everything like everything hurts me. It's like okay well we need to talk about this. But it's like I bring in other guys because I am told that like my viewpoint I I shouldn't feel this way. And I'm like literally every guy feels this way. And then she gets mad. She goes, "You're bringing in other people." But it's because it's like I'm being singled out and told that like this is not normal. You feel this way. And I'm like it is though. And it's like I'm a man. And I start talking about men in generalities. Like this is how you talk to a man. And then that like makes her upset. And I'm like trying to teach her how to talk to me. how I want to be treated and it's like I get frustrated because it's like no matter what I say that makes the argument worse.

It's not going to Yeah. It's like are you going to like make

but my individual point isn't received either. That's my point. Like it's

it's it's I'm being told that there's I'm a freak. That's what it comes off as. You're not m it's it's like

you know you've told me before you're being feminine or whatever. And it's like that sets me off.

But that's what I'm saying that I hear what you're trying to tell me too. So, I'm saying like instead of just saying that, like why can't we like find a different way to try to communicate to each other like what it is that as opposed to like here's all this evidence and like now like

I'm totally fine with that. I just want to be heard and not like there's something wrong with you attached to when I talk about myself as an individual. I hear that

like or that I'm overly sensitive or that I'm too dramatic or that there's like it it's I feel crazy because it's like I'm just like trying to talk about how I want to be treated. That's that's it. And it's it's really not like big asks. It's just I don't want to be talked down to. I don't want to be scolded. I don't want to be like overtly corrected. I don't want to be um like voice raised at me whenever we're we're talking and I'm not raising my voice or when I raise my voice back then it's like all of a sudden you're scaring me when I'm just matching the energy. Like it feels like a game that I can't win.

Some of those are a little vague though for me and it feels like I can't win either. like some of the things you're saying that you need and like I gave the example earlier where it feels like it's just conflicting.

Okay.

Like you're you're like I feel like you like could be a little bit more clear about what it is you're needing and like when it's okay, but it's like we kind of have to like almost narrow that down because like yeah, I don't I don't know how

To have a conversation like at this point. I don't at all.

Even though it can feel maybe a bit defeating, I think that this there can be beauty in this because now this is on a spiritual lens, but saying that's that's the big relevance I have, but feel free like to apply it to however it looks. And if it doesn't make sense, definitely let me know.

Um, but it feels like like as a believer when we ask God for things or we want things to go a certain way and it might not go the way that we're hoping for. And so we try to do things on our own and and things still don't work out until we basically tire ourselves out and we say, "You know what, God, have your way. I'm I can't do it anyway. I I'm burnt out. I don't know what else to do." Like, you're literally going to have the enemy. And that's where things fall into place. And so I think here you guys might be tiring your guys'selves out and how you guys navigate to where you guys kind of handle you're still receptive but like in some way throwing your guys' hands in the air like okay look really how do we navigate because we can't continue to do what we're doing but we also want to navigate together going forward. So, what do we do? And I think with you guys feeling tired, you guys might feel hopefully more open to listen to one another. And so, um, getting on this trend of what you guys do want in conversations that could be helpful um, so that when you guys do communicate, um, you guys can have that in mind.

You guys are seem right. I don't get to see you in other aspects besides in therapy, but I'm sure you guys are fun, outgoing people. But if I may, you guys are, for lack of better words, pretty serious people. Like, yes, you guys can joke, but that can change really quick. And it's not a bad thing. It's more of a reflection thing so that you guys know how to navigate with each other. So you guys may want to talk freely. However, it sounds like there's stipulations for the both of you guys on how freely this is. And it's not a bad thing. If anything, we want to be mindful and respectful to our partners. And that takes work. And not just you guys, but everyone in this world. It takes work to maintain a relationship. And I think the question is just, are you guys willing to put more work in than you guys are typically used to doing when it comes to other people.

Um, so that's one thing. Another thing, um, I don't know if it's I'm still trying to figure out how to phrase it and it might not be all completed today. Um, and it's a hot question and I'm trying to figure out how to navigate it. Okay, we need some buy in. So, um, what makes you guys want to continue to, you know, fight the good fight in this relationship?

You can go. Yeah. I think that I know that Matt's a good person, a good man, would be an amazing father, and um I have fun with him and I love him. Um and he's my best friend, I think. Um, I love Alexa's sweet side. Um, I think that she would be a really good mom. I think she's really smart and really intelligent and um, I think she's funny and I like being around her. I just don't like arguing. That's like my that's my thing. Like I I I really do love her personality and I do love her Okay.

And I hear the both of you guys. Um, and I put this. Those things aren't good, but or and okay, you guys want to be able to be vulnerable with one another. And we talked about trust and we talked about um I mean we even have sessions about talking about insecurities and things like that which is all great. Um, but I'm wondering, and this isn't like a a negative thing, it's just we're we're traveling deeper. We're being more vulnerable with one another, right? And so, in order for any relationship to work, in my opinion, and how I see it, is we have to be ready to have the hard questions. And so, Do you guys feel like we can talk about the hard questions and knowing that this is all for like the greater good?

Okay. I feel like a lawyer. I need verbal consent.

Yes.

Yes.

Thank you.

Sorry, I'm taking notes as well.

No, it's cool. That is totally fine. Um, so this is I'm I'm relieving the cap a little bit just I guess this is like a pre-introduction that you guys can marinate on and you guys cannot talk about this outside of therapy.

Okay.

Okay.

So, um, in these past few weeks, it sounds like there is a bit of a running theme. And I'm wondering where you guys are with it, which is in turn of like this whole um, and I say all this with respect. Let me just

walk with you. Okay. Sorry. All these disguments. Sorry.

No, you're fine.

Um, when it comes to this whole idea of a man, it sounds like it has been a running topic for you guys. And it sounds like for you, Matt, you are having to defend your manhood. And for you, Lex, it sounds like you might be questioning some of his behaviors based off of your experiences with men in general in your life. um whether they came and went and so um what are your guys's thoughts about that? I I I personally I think that resonates very well and I also know too just to emphasize what you said there is a toxic view of like well a man's supposed to do this a man's supposed to never cry like I don't subscribe to those things but there is like sort of a baseline thing and I'm willing to admit like even if I do have some of that toxic stuff but but I don't think I do but I'm willing to like explore that in even. So, yeah, I think that that resonates with me. I'll let you talk.

Um, yeah, I mean, I think I think I said as much that I that I was, so that that's accurate. I'm just I'm not trying to say that like you are bad or weird like because of the things that I may notice. And that's why I said like I'm trying to bring it up in a way like that a that a loving partner would bring it up. And I know that my delivery definitely can use work cuz we haven't figured out how to talk to each other in that language yet. Um but I

want to get past that because I see the potential of like where we could go

100%.

So like I want to like work on that so we can like kind of keep making each other better. um is my goal and like that's why I feel like up until this point and I mean like let me know if you feel differently that I've been trying to hear you and what you're saying that I need to work on like I might have like had a moment the other week where I was like well why do I need to go and like all this stuff but ultimately like I'm seeing it as like I think that you're just trying to do what is best for our relationship and like you told me like hey like your anxiety heightens me and like it would really help if like we can deal with that. And I don't think it's fair to like bring that in and and if that's going to affect you. And so like that's the lens that I wanted to use and like I I said I have my my appointment on Wednesday. Um so like I want to to work on that like

for us.

Yeah. I think I think these convers No, and I appreciate that. Thank you for saying that.

You're welcome. I think these conversations come up because it's like I use the man example a lot because it's like, hey, we both can't be in the driver's seat. I have no desire to control you. I'm not. But I've never said this before, but because of there's good things about feminism and there's bad things about it. The good thing is is like women need to be able they can compete in the same way guys can. a lot of times better CEOs. It's like I have no belief that women should be in the kitchen and they should just all state. I don't I don't believe that. But the bad thing is is sometimes when somebody says leadership or things like that, they think that you want to send them back to 1950. And I think that comes from like this mindset of like I'm never going to let a man tell me what to do. And sometimes I do wonder if there is a certain level of that because I will say things and it feels like it's boked at. Um, and I'm having a hard time thinking of an exact example right now, but I will um say something along the lines of um, oh, the the the other guys are attractive thing. Like hearing that I was like, I don't want to hear that. And it's like I know that we're both gonna find other people attractive, but she'll say something like, "Well, you know, my dad, my mom does that and my dad doesn't care." And I'm like, "Are you sure he doesn't care?" Or I'm like, and maybe he really doesn't, but I'm like, "Or has he just not voiced that?" Because I try to explain things like men a lot of times we're afraid to voice things because it's taken so out of context by society like you you're either going to sound like uh tyrannical authoritarian or you're going to sound like a [ __ ] and like if you if you voice your feelings or something makes me feel bad that can quickly get turned on. Oh, you're just insecure. And so she's like, "No, I don't think it bothers." And may and maybe it doesn't, but I think sometimes she'll use that example and then I'll and then it'll be like, "I don't see why this bothers you." And then I'll bring in other men. I'm like, well, other men that I talk to that will bo and then it becomes this whole thing of like that's why the man conversation is so big because I think it's like we don't really have a clearly defined and it's not that I don't have flexibility in my thinking, but I do think there is a certain way that like I do want to be treated if that makes sense as a guy. And I think sometimes like when I I I I speak up that cartoon image might get triggered of like is he trying to control me?

I think it's just your delivery. I think it's the way you say things. And that's that what I was trying to tell you last night. Like I think it's just like uh phrasing things in a way like you said with the Can you stop doing that? Like like you said with the um um Sorry, it's just distracting me. Um with the I lost with the with me going and talking about my anxiety and like, hey, this affects me and just like I I feel it's and I can't like I can't vocalize it. It's like something about the way you say it does sound a little chauvinistic like sometimes. And so that's I think like I don't want to think that about you. I want to try to understand where you're coming from. Um and it's not like a fear of being controlled. It's just like that just sounds weird, like you know, it's just like I think there's a difference. Um, and I think like it's part of me saying when I when I talk about feeling like sometimes you don't know like who I am because I am a gender and women's studies major and um you know like women's rights in addition to like equal rights is something that like I'm very passionate about and um I have like you know gay friends and you know it's just like yeah like I I don't come from a very traditional uh my parents don't really have a traditional mar. We talked about that and like I I think it's just understanding that and appreciating like who I am to like have that conversation but sometimes it feels like you are imposing your beliefs onto me and then wanting me to kind of just like fall in line and like because I don't that's how I'm interpreting it like that's what's the problem is

and I can see that I understand why you would feel that way and it's like you have adapted to a lot of things you know and It's like I've I've let you do that naturally, you know, going to church and everything, but I think a lot of times where it runs into is more about how I want to be treated and I feel like I have to defend that. It's it's all about tone. I don't like being spoken down to. I don't like voice being raised at me. I like and then it triggers other things. I don't care if she drives. Like I don't care if I drive. Like sometimes I don't want to drive. But then there's times where it'll be like I'm driving and she'll say that and I think it it come I I sense that it comes from a place like just so you know that like I can drive too and I'm like

no

okay okay then I imagine that but like I think that there's there's sometimes when it's like or I'm driving and it's like you can speed up, you can go in that lane and then I start being like hey I don't want to be talked to as like just relax and like let me lead and then it but it sounds chauvinistic because it's like part of me feeling good about myself is allowing me to take you somewhere and trusting me and taking your hand off the steering wheel and like letting me take care of something. But it doesn't bother me to have you give me like directions like, "Oh, you missed that turn or whatever." But I think because sometimes that backseat driver thing is so prevalent and there's other areas of our relationship where I feel overtly corrected that I'm sensitive to things that maybe I should not be sensitive about. Maybe sometimes it isn't a bad thing if you speak up like, "Hey, you just missed that turn." Like, I don't expect you to be a mindless robot. I think it just comes back to this level of like respect and maybe I'm clearly I'm not defining it as well as I can but I think sometimes when I do try to explain it it's like gets into an argument so it just comes out all

I think it's because you bring up older references like that's where I start to get sensitive because like that has improved and you've said that like hey you're getting a lot better with the driving thing but then it's like once we hit like a bump that's about anything now all of a sudden everything is getting thrown back at me from past stuff like that. A lot of that stuff you said has not happened. Like when we were driving like I I met happened recently. So like when we were driving on Sunday like you were driving I didn't say anything like I'm sitting there and I was quiet like you know letting you do everything but then it's like that feels like it's not recognized and that's what I'm talking about. Like when I do make the corrections it's still not good enough because then the second something bad happens like everything is going to get bought up again. And like I I don't want to keep arguing like that. I don't want to keep bringing up old stuff. Like can we move past it, you know?

Yeah. And and I think the reason why I bring stuff up is because I try to bring up something gently, but then it's not received. So I try to use past examples as like a metric to say there's this and then it's like, well, you're not seeing what I did and what I've done. And I could probably afford to be better at like praise and be like, hey, that was really awesome tonight. Thank you for like letting me like

I do well with that. That means that I know how like what to keep and I'm like great I've made him happy and like that makes me feel really good like

100% and I can I can work on that. I think it's just but when I I bring up my feelings about something that bothers me it's usually not received and so I have to bring up like references to illustrate like my point, but then that's not received either. So it's like I just feel left like not really knowing like what to say or do, you know?

Okay. So I think this is and I think this would be our last point. Um

I think so what I'm hearing is you know you mentioned Lex like he

it feels like sometimes he's not meeting you halfway or you know taking an extra step sometimes and with this statement. I think what he's trying to say is he is trying to do that but it feels like dang if you do dang if you don't.

Okay.

So just like how he shared like what he does want in like communicated like when it comes to this scenario like how would you want him to communicate with you when it comes to things like this? Because as he said, if he brings it up um in regards to his stuff, it doesn't really work and then he brings up an example, but then it feels like that doesn't work because it's involving other people in the past. So, what would be like what are you expecting from him?

And when you say things like this, you mean like uh the

I guess this topic or whatever we've been talking about.

Okay. I was like, what are we talking about? Um you're talking about like when you bring up like um like something that bothers you.

Sure. Yeah. just really anything, you know, like it it usually is like a tone of way I'm spoken to or like uh

Right. But she's asking me how I need you to preface. Right. Right. That's the question.

Okay. So, I guess I I I need a kind tone, like gentleness, and like saying like, "Hey, I want to like I want to be able to hear you, but like also like I'm I'm willing to be course corrected during an argument to say like, hey, like your tone is coming across a little harsh. Do you think you could do this? Like, do you think you could speak to me in a different way?" And so we can kind of like, you know, inch inch inch like keep adjusting to get there. Um, and I just I don't know if that answers the question. Like I'm always willing to hear things. And I think like we have done that at certain points like when you say, "Hey, like I'm sorry to bring it up, but I just want to like clarify. Can I talk to you about something?" And just like kind of prepare me. Um, like I think that's when we have like a better resolution um sometimes, but it's hard to kind of like pin where it goes bad like all the time. Yeah, it's I don't know if I can I don't know if I can answer that.

I think it's um sometimes I will set something like the the other day when it was like what an ass. I was like, "Please don't talk to me like that." And then it was like she'll she'll say like, "It's your tone." Because I'm very like firm. I don't yell. I'm just like, "It's something I think I'm firm because I've had enough." It's like one of those things like, "Please don't talk to me like that." Like I don't want to be called an ass. And then you're like, "I was just kidding."

And then um I'm like, "Okay." And I'm like, "But it you wouldn't like it if I said that to you." And you go, "That's not true." And then I start being like you. And then I I think where it went ary. I'm just trying to find it. It's like I said to you I said I feel like we're not in a joking mode because you were kind of quiet this morning. And you're like that wasn't about you. I go sure I know it's not about you. And I go okay when you were experiencing your thing this morning. And she goes what do you mean by your thing? I go

your own individual thing. And then I'm like I start like shaking because it's like I feel like and that's why I get like uh uh and I can't like explain. So maybe I should just let Matt talk all the way through and not like ask for clarifying questions. Like maybe that's the better thing cuz it seems like when I say that like that tends to like amplify him cuz he feels like he's being critiqued and then I can just like jot it down or something cuz I I ask because like sometimes I I forget like I have a short-term memory and so it's like I just need to interject. But I think is that accurate that that would help for you to just like be able to say what you have to say?

Yeah. I I don't want to talk at you or anything. I just want to be like heard and not like cuz it it creates an argument to where I defend something cuz I'm being told I mean something or I said something or I did something and then I'm like that's not what I meant. And then I think it's just if I could be like heard and listened to and like okay yeah you don't want to you don't want me to talk to you like that. Like I'm sorry I was just kidding but you know you know what maybe you are just kidding. You know I can I can totally see that. I just feel like maybe we didn't talk that well this morning. It's like this defensive thing that comes in and then I get defensive too and then it's like the whole thing like spirals out and Yeah.

Okay. So, I don't want it to cut out on us. So, um, this system will be, um, so I I think to answer your guys's question, at least for now, it really goes back to what we've been talking about for a while now, which is you guys have to take your time with speaking to one another

and really being mindful of what you say. I think it is evident that you guys do need to be mindful in how you guys speak to one another because you both mentioned tone. You both said that you guys don't like how the other person said something and it sounded like it was very curt. So, as you guys navigate throughout the week, it would be very beneficial to the both of you guys that you guys, for lack of better words, would just before you speak. And it can feel like a lot of work in the beginning because it's something new, but I believe that like a muscle, it becomes second nature, and you guys will be able to navigate more effectively.

Yeah.

Um

and so that would be your guys' homework is just being mindful on how you guys speak to each other with the turn with the tone and usage.

Yeah.

And um yeah, so I'm sorry I had to end like so abruptly.

That's okay. Um, but you guys do got this and you know, just hang in there.

Thank you, Tori.

Thank you.

Of course. For sure. You guys take care. You

too.