Transcription
If Britain wants to ruffle feathers with China, the biggest economy in the world, a very powerful and influential military power in the world, well, you need to be fully aware of all the consequences.
First, um, relations with China, from how we see them as a nation to, uh, China's ambitions for a super embassy in London. All that has been in sharp focus as the Crown Prosecution Service dropped a case against two alleged spies in the heart of Westminster. So what do the Chinese think about this all? Uh let's speak to Victor Gao, the vice president of the Beijing-based Center for China and Globalization. Uh he was uh previously an adviser to former Premier Deng Xiaoping and he worked in China's foreign ministry. He's actually in Rome. Hello to you Victor.
Good morning. Thank you very much for having me. Happy weekend.
Well, let's see. Um, Sunday Times is leading uh with um this report that a British spy suspect was stopped on a return flight from China with £4,000 in cash apparently given to him by his handlers. What What would you say to that? First of all, I'm concerned that there is a lot of hysteria in Britain about China. From the Chinese perspective, China does not look at Britain as an enemy or as a competitor. Nothing like that at all. China looks at Britain as an important country to be engaged with for mutual benefit. China does not treat Britain as the top priority on its radar screen. And China doesn't have resources or time to spare for looking into Britain. China is very much focused on the United States because the United States is worried that China will catch up with the United States and China looks at the United States look at China as the pacing threat. Britain is not looking at China as a pacing threat. China is way ahead of Britain in almost all the other categories. So be assured, take some good rest. Britain is not on China's radar.
Well, you say that, but our intelligence chiefs have repeatedly warned about penetration by China. We've had cases of uh a lady working in the House of Commons uh who was apparently trying to gather intelligence. And whether these people were guilty technically of spying, they were clearly trying to uh gather intelligence for China. So there is an active uh you may regard us a small fry but there is still an active uh Chinese intelligence and spying operation into this country, isn't there?
Well, Britain has a tradition of rule of law and the presumption of innocence until convicted. So I hope you will put everything you suspect through this process of law, giving him or her due process and uh don't reach a conclusion until you find a final verdict. From my side, I really do not see why China should put Britain on the radar screen at all. We are not uh contiguous to each other. For example, we are not neighboring countries by land or sea, and there is no need for China to look at Britain as if it is an enemy or adversary or a competitor, nothing like that. Don't waste your time by misguiding yourself to believe that China has a big interest in Britain. No, we just have interest to do tourism for kids to get education, to engage in normal trade, but nothing geopolitical at war between China and Britain.
Well, if if we don't matter so much, why does China want to build an enormous embassy uh in the heart of London?
Well, the Chinese embassy has been its current location for more than uh a century. I think it's more than 140 years. It is very small, very crowded. It's not befitting the size of China as the biggest economy by purchasing power parity and the second biggest economy next to the United States, a very influential and impactful country in the world of today. Therefore, I think China needs a bigger embassy in London, as Britain needs a bigger embassy in Beijing, and I support both initiatives. I hope China will have a new embassy at its preferred location and Britain will have its new location in China as its new expanded embassy. We need to do uh what the other side wants to do on a reciprocal basis rather than try to do it unilaterally.
And what do you say to those um British politicians who say the reason why China wants an embassy in that location uh with some rooms for unspecified uses is so that you can tap into communication cables going into the City of London?
It's complete nonsense. I think uh China and Britain have been talking about that location because Britain needed the money. Britain needed to sell that property or lease that property, as it has been doing with many old government properties uh in uh London. And if you do not know what I'm talking about, go and see the Raffles Hotel, which was the old War Office uh used by Prime Minister Churchill in the Second World War. It's now converted into a hotel. So if you talk about potential implications of these locations, well, you can read a lot of history, for example, and come up with all the reasons to scare yourself. I was in London. I was in the old War Office for conferences and I tried my best to get a feeling of what Prime Minister Winston Churchill did in the Second World War, conducting operations against Nazi Germany. It's all gone. It's its own history for the site that China and Britain are talking about. It's an old property not used by the British government, and the British government wants to monetize that site and that location and that property, and China happened to need a bigger place.
Yeah. It sounds like you think it was a sort of bit demeaning uh of um the UK to give up such a historic government building to um a Chinese hotel company.
Well, it's a decision for the British government to make, and if it does not want to proceed as originally agreed by the two sides, China will not proceed with a new premise that Britain needs in Beijing. So again, it's a good pro-business. I think China and Britain will do each other justice by enabling each other to have its preferred site in both Beijing and in London, to make sure that China and Britain, despite of all that historically has happened, can still treat each other on an equal basis and view each other as a decent and dignified counterparty to deal with for now and for many decades and centuries to come.
We we've had reports that China has been offended. The Chinese regime has taken offense at some of the discussions which have already gone on around the spy case. What do you think would be the consequence if the British government decides to deny uh the um embassy, the new embassy?
I hope the British government will not do that stupid thing and will not make that stupid decision, because they know for sure if they do not give access to the site in London, China will not give access to the site they chose in Beijing on a completely reciprocal basis. That will be a very nasty chapter in China-British relations. And we've been engaged with each other for hundreds of years. There are pleasant things, there are unpleasant things. And if Britain wants to ruffle feathers with China, the biggest economy in the world, the very powerful and influential military power in the world, well, you need to be fully aware of all the consequences.
And if if if that does happen and the embassy's denied, would Starmer still be welcome to go on a visit to Beijing next year?
I think Prime Minister Starmer will be better advised not to do so.
You think?
I'm an optimist and I have full confidence in China-British relations going forward for the better rather than for the worse. And um, just finally, I've got someone describing here, one of our listeners, describing China as a malicious dictatorship uh when the stated aim is to bring communist rule worldwide by any means and is prepared to use lying and falsification. Is that a fair description?
Absolutely not. China is the major force defending free trade for all mankind, not only for the Chinese people but also for the British people, and ironically also for the majority of the people in the United States. China is the champion of free trade, and China now defends peace for everyone in the world. China is building up its military capabilities, of course, but that's a measure up against the United States to make sure that the American government and the people in the United States will be more peaceful, less jingoistic. War should not be an option between China and the United States, and it should never be considered by Washington as an option against China. In that sense, China is the staunch defender of peace in this world.