Transcription
What is the game plan when you're going to try to go into this game and do it well? Every football team has won. Every basketball team we've got to have it at the church. And a big part of it is missing sometimes: development of leaders and servants who helped run this thing and do the ministry and care for people. Our topic today, Pastor PD—we like the name, I hope you do—I'm Newt Larsen. I'm with Jeff Bow and Jim Brown.
Why is leadership development hard sometimes, Jeff?
Why is it to some people?
Yeah, to all of us. I think it is hard, and I think one of the biggest reasons why it's hard is because there's no system. You're not gonna buy a book, run somebody through it, and produce a leader at the other end. It really is the heart; it's really discipleship. It's the hard work of discipleship: identifying leaders, speaking vision into their life, and then walking through their life with them and having that relationship where they're open to the critique and you're open as well. And that iron sharpens iron, and that's how leaders are discovered and developed. So it's, it just takes hands-on work to do it.
It is difficult because it takes time, Jeff. It takes time. A lot of guys aren't willing to take the time to do it. And I like what you said to that: you don't give them a book and say, "Here, become a leader." A lot of times we place knowledge/application, and I found—you guys I know you have to—is everyone develops differently. To some, one guy already has one area that he's good at, but to fully develop that leader, it requires sometimes months and even sometimes years. It requires your time, their time, and then they finally get to a point where you can release them. And so, leadership development requires time.
I would say, you know, coaching churches and pastors, I've been—I've heard 10, 20 times in the last five years—"I don't feel like a leader." You got to do it anyway. Yeah, and none of us—I don't—I don't think I ever looked in the mirror and thought, "Hot dogs, we've got us a leader!" I'd like to talk about that: you gotta do it, and you can get help. It's part—part of the humility that comes with leadership is looking and saying, "I may not know how to lead something, or may not know how to lead in a particular area." That's where the body of Christ becomes really exciting. There's probably somebody in the church that knows how to do those things; you should be leaning into them. But as a, as the senior pastor, you're the senior leader. If you're the youth pastor, you're the senior leader of that ministry, and so on. If you don't embrace that, then nobody will, and your ministry will, will be, will drift because of it. So you, you have to lead, and you have to overcome those weaknesses. If it doesn't come natural, it doesn't mean that you can't do it, right? It means you're going to have to work harder at it, but not leading is not an option.
Yeah, I would say even for me, 20 years I've been at Goshen, I've adapted the ways I train guys. I change the ways I've trained guys. I've used all kinds of systems, but ultimately what I, my desire is, and our desire has been, is to take the knowledge and to see them live it out. Like, some guys are so good at knowing what a leader is but don't know how to live it out. And so they finally—I get to a point where they live out these principles and so their systems, from 101, meet with a guy, looking at his life. I even have—I have this mental list that I'm already looking for potential leaders. The question to me is, is a leader born or is a leader developed? The answer that I would say is yes, right? And we have a part in looking and being at church events and just meeting people. We've got to be able to be talent—and it's not just talent, but still spirit.
Okay, how do you guys find leaders? You're both doing a great job with this. How do you find leaders to help in the church? Let's be even about positions in the church, or elder board, or all those things. What goes through your mind as you're looking?
I would say the first thing for me—are our people following this guy? Like, if there's an environment, whether it's a community event, which church event, does this guy already have someone that's listening to him? If I see a guy that someone's already listening to, already following, like, he's already has maybe the beginning skills of leading, and sometimes you just see him. And sometimes I've heard one guy say this one time, he said that you put men in a circle and you give them a task, the leader will surface. Like, okay, we got to do this. And so those kind of guys I'm going after first. It doesn't mean that that's the only guy, but if he's not being equipped, I'm going after that guy.
Yeah, there's an old—I think I got it at—from Dance Pay, terrific, from me or from you, Lara’s my—Newt Larsen. When I think about it, but there's this old little acronym called FATTER: Faithful, Available, Teachable, Enthusiastic, and Responsive. And that's—that's what Jim's saying. I'm looking for the guy that's tied into those things. Then what I do is, is I find that it's very important to speak vision into that person's life. So a guy who's a good worker, a good leader at work, or a gal who's the captain of her college soccer team, right? She doesn't—they don't necessarily think to translate that into spiritual leadership. That's where discipleship has to come in, to let them see that some of those instincts work very, very well in, in disciple and people in helping them. So I'll speak vision into their life, and then what I'll do—I do this pretty frequently—is I'll invite them to gradually elevate their leadership. So I'll say, "Will you come into this room and help me think through the problem?" Then I want to see how they do that. And next I'll, I'll take them to the next environment, the next environment. And especially our elders and, and potential staff people that will come out of our congregation, I'm really going to work with them that way over time, disciple them, and feel if their faithful, teachability is HUGE. If I can speak back into their life—the big, big deal to me—then we'll see over time and how they, how they think and how they work and how they—I would've elip—I would, you know, for me, some of the one thing is really big for me, and I'm sure it's big for both you guys, too, is: Do they love people? Like, if you, if you want to lead in the local church, you have to love people. And so are they, are there are a ways they're loving people? And I would even say, do they love all people, and their family? Yes, modeling that in front of her family, and even—I would say go so far—I look for potential leaders: Does a guy, when a child enters a room, does a guy get down on his knee? Does he acknowledge the child? My wife would even say—she would say to this many occasions, Jim, "I feel respected and cared for by a man, not only when he knows you, but he turns to me and introduces himself and shakes my hand." And so I look for men who acknowledge the kids and the ladies too in a room, just if I'm looking for future leaders.
Any final thoughts, because this is one of the most crucial things we've done in Pastor PeeDee, because we all have to be developing leaders, even a group around you, five men that you meet with regularly, as well as one-on-one, but every pastor has to do it.
I would say, you know, make sure they're not power-driven, but people-driven. So I would—that would be it. I will get—I would say have an environment of—one of mine is every Tuesday morning, I have a men's Bible study, 50, 60 guys, bunch of leaders come out. You, you need to be in the, the mix with your men, with your leaders and seeing them, speaking into them. So that the standoff pastor who's intimidated by strong people will run that strong person off because they're insecure. You have to have your security in the Lord and how God has created you and realized that he brought those leaders around you because he's building that local body. So learn—learn how the humility to learn from them and have the backbone not to let them run over you, but pursue it. Pursue it. Pursuit. If you invest in leadership for five years, it pays off for 25 years. And so it literally will set your ministry up by leaning into those, those intimidating things a little bit. The old way, and many of our churches, was let the congregation choose the leaders. Yeah, let's have an election. Please, First Timothy, praying for leaders, and then it says that you develop strong people who will be able to—strong, you know, and with men, women, with women. Pastor PD—today on developing leaders. I'm Newt, with Jeff and Jim, and we thank you. We'll have a lot for you to read in the, in the printed stuff. Thank you very much.