Transcription
[Music] What's up? Hi, how are you? I'm good, how are you? Thank you so much for taking my call. I'm so excited. I listen to you every day, but I'm also extremely nervous.
Okay, number one, there's so many other good podcasts you should listen to. And don't be nervous. I'm not that, I'm not that good at this job. Good, yes you are. I listen. You offer lots of good advice and perspective, so I, you know, I'm very appreciative to get this call today.
Well, you're, you're, you're too kind. You're too kind. You're an antidote to how mean Kelly is to me. All right, so let's cannonball all the way in. Go for it.
Okay, so basically, what I'm looking for is somebody to give me an honest opinion. I've been to three couples counselors. Um, I've been married 15 years, and I'm trying to figure out if I need to just go ahead and vow for separation, move forward with divorce, or go to couple's counseling, that Christian couple's counseling my husband asked me to go to, which he's never done before.
That may be one of the best questions I've ever been asked because it's so layered. I love how layered you made that. Yes, it's very, very complicated. So good. Okay. Um, I'll ask you, let's just reverse engineer the whole thing. Okay, give me your gut answer. Don't, don't, um, don't qualify it. Don't maybe. Just give me your straight from your gut answer.
Okay, my gut answer is divorce.
Okay, and that's only because a year and a half ago. No, you're trying to qualify it. Just say divorce. Sit on it. Sit on it. Yeah. I want to leave him forever. Yes. Exhale on that. Now, demand evidence from it. Is that true? Yes. Okay, because I don't believe people can change anymore. I disagree with you on there, but okay. That doesn't matter. What matters is you said the words out loud, "I want a divorce. This is over." Period.
Yeah. And anytime I have those big stories in my head that are floating around, floating around, floating around, by the way, I have had that story in my head too. Okay. And I wrote it down and I sat in and lived in it and I changed my mind. And that's not everybody's path. And I don't even know what happened in your life. But here, here's, um, as you laid out that question, here's what I heard in that question. Um, something big happened or has happened over a period of time and you're exhausted. And you've never had autonomy and power in your marriage to make a choice or a decision. And now that you're making one, it feels awkward and weird and, and obscenely heavy.
One hundred percent. Okay. Something changed this year. I like too many things have happened and I finally feel like I made a decision. Like I, I just, I feel differently. Well, I had back-to-back surgeries and zero help. Um, still having to, you know, take care of the kids, take care of me. And I felt that showed me a lot. And then he had a lot of issues with his mother because his dad passed away two years ago, having to take care of her. And he couldn't put himself aside for the kids. For every single holiday was ruined this year. And it just made me think very differently about how I want our household with our kids. And then also realizing that my wants are never going to be met either. And maybe it's better for everybody if I show them what a happy house is.
Okay, exhale on that. Mhm. You're holding your breath. Drop your shoulders down. I know. I'm stressed out. I know. I can feel it. Okay. Yeah. You said it out loud. Now, I'm gonna, can I poke holes in your story? And I want you to not just accept what I'm saying, but I want you to push back on me. Okay? If we've been together 15 years and we've created humans, how many kids you got? Two. Three. Three. Oh. Um, gosh, this may be the worst marriage thing I've ever said. Um, if you get a hit in baseball, three out of 10 times, they put you in the Hall of Fame. So it's a bad, a bad analogy, but you get what I'm saying. If he had one bad year, his dad dies, he just blew it. The other 14 years, it's been fine. It's been all right. That's one thing. Mhm. And I would challenge you to explore a guy who's begging you to go to therapy. Please go to a counselor with me. I blew it. You had surgery. I didn't show up for you. My mom got sick or my dad died, whatever. Like, I just went bananas and I blew it. But he'd have to actually feel that way. He doesn't feel that way.
Okay, so but that tells me that either you're annoyed by him because this, I mean, you, you hate him. This past year, you've put you through hell. Or this is the cap on 15 years worth. So walk me before this year. What, what has been going on for the last 15 years?
It's been a sexist marriage from the get-go. Like he told me before we got married, it's because it was religious reasons, which we had sex, but, you know, he felt better when we were married. But even when we got married, it was one time the entire year. And then it was exactly like that after that, once every few years. And it was so bad for me because it made me feel horrible as a person that I was cutting. And because of his upbringing, he had zero response. Was like, okay. And I just wanted him to hear me how it was affecting me. I made him go to couples counseling. We did three different couples counselors. We've been kicked out of everyone. And I'm just kind of why have you been kicked out?
Um, the first one when I was, when I was pregnant with my second. And it's because the counselor said he wasn't, he knew what to do and he wasn't willing to do the work. So no affection, no, you know, none of that in the house. Um, I was working on how I talk to him to make sure I was, you know, stroking his ego, making him feel better and not putting him down, not comparing him to like how awesome my dad is or whatever. It was so that was that. We waited a while. Then I when I was, um, went through two miscarriages before my daughter. Which let me just lead by saying all three of my kids are IVF babies. So we're not having lots of sex to have those. Those are.
I was going to say different story if you were in person with me just to lighten the mood. I was going to be like, well, at least you're three for three, right? But you weren't even that, right? No, no, no. Exactly. So, so I went to another counselor because I basically, I had two miscarriages and I was like, I'm not going to be complete unless I have one more kid. So knowing that was a wrong decision. I mean, it wasn't wrong and I love my children, but I basically told him, if it's not you, it's going to be somebody else. I want to use my eggs, my body doesn't work. Before there's no opportunity. And you know, that therapist ended up leaving, sending us to a guy to see if he was more comfortable. And that guy gave up too. He was just like, this isn't working. You two have two different things. He needs to work on him.
All right, if you, if you circle back and listen to this call, and it would be hard because it's weird when you hear your own voice, right? That's always weird. But for the, the people listening and for you, if you want to discern it, when you talked about you, I hear a strength and a resolve at the beginning of this call. Okay? When you start talking about him, your whole cadence changes, your voice pitch changes, you're mad and you're angry that this dude has taken a decade and a half of your life. What I want to tell you is if you make decisions when you are angry, those are by definition going to be decisions that are not involving all the variables in the next right move. Okay? So what I want you to do is to feel empowered, but I want you to own the last decade and a half. Here's what I mean by that. I want you to say the words, "I have put up with this for a decade and a half. I have sought healing. I have sought trying to get his attention through 55,000 different like." Here's the, I want you to get into the driver's seat of your own life because when you talk about him, you sound like you got thrown in the trunk. And I want you to make whatever decision you're going to make next, because it's going to alter your entire life. I want you to it from the driver's seat, not from the trunk. Okay? And all that means is you take ownership. And when you start taking full ownership, you're going to have a season of deep grief. Okay? Because all this mad you've had at him is going to come back to you. Right? Because I'm gonna be the one that's ruining everything. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're going to recognize that you were participated in this for a decade and a half. I allowed it. You didn't allow it. You're not his mom. You participated in it. Okay? You co-created this thing.
But I tried to fix it. I'm not free at all because I got on meds. I've been seeing a therapist for 15 years. You've worked your, you've worked your butt off. You've worked your butt off. Okay? And I've said this a lot on the show and people can agree with me or disagree with me. I think fidelity is is a much fuller picture. This man got married to you and said, "I do not want to participate in a marriage with you." Period. And you have gone to hell and back to make sure you did your part right. And so my bigger question to you is, you sound very resolved at the beginning of this call. What do you think you haven't done yet?
I don't, I don't, uh, it's not that I don't think I haven't done yet. I just know I'm, I just want to know that I'm right. That I do deserve better. That there is like, there's such thing as like a happy marriage with with like affection and all those things. Like that does exist. I don't know. I, I don't want to leave selfishly for just me. But it's not just the sex. It's also follow-through of getting things done. There's just so many things. I know there's going to be issues no matter who you're with. But I don't want to blow up my kids' world just selfishly for me. And I think the, the my 30,000 foot view is your house is already blown up. The real question is, are you going to get the kids to safety? Or is safety going to be found where you are? There's just a different path towards it.
Yeah, man. I don't think they're. What does your husband think he's going to accomplish by this new therapy? This new, I don't, whatever. I don't know. I think he's thinking that it's going to be all fine and I'll like pacifier again for a little bit. But none of it's, nothing's ever changed. Like there's no resolve.
Why does he want to stay married to you?
I don't. I think because he's an only child and he's realized over the last year he's had issues at work that everyone's seeing what I see for once. That he has an obsession with baseball and anything outside of that that he's not interested in. He doesn't do. He can't return phone calls. He can't pay the bills, but he has to have control of the bills. Like those kind of weird things that he can't even give me an explanation on. Like he can't tell me why he doesn't do it. But it's just a multitude of things that it's almost embarrassing. Like I'm embarrassed. So it's hard for me to lift somebody up that I'm not proud of.
Yeah. So behavior is a language. You've heard me say that a bunch. And so it's pretty clear what he thinks about you and your kids and your household and your marriage, right?
Yeah. But he's delusional. He's going to act like I blindsided him. But I've been telling him. But I think his life, he grew up, you know, with an alcoholic mother. He's an only child. She had nothing. I mean, she had something to do. She lived in the house, but the world revolved around her, not him. Dad was the loving one. She was the abusive alcoholic. And I don't know if she abused him. I don't know because he just, it's a blank, blank spot. You can't remember his upbringing.
So let me say this. You can't go forward with a divorce. You can't go forward with your next right move and suddenly expect somebody who has not loved you, cared for you, cared for these kids, been willing to sit down and co-create something new, do all the work. You can't suddenly expect that in the transition, right? So as you're telling me, he can't even give me an explanation as to why he doesn't pay bills. He can't give me an explanation as to why he values baseball over our kids. He can't give you an explanation as to why he won't be sexually interested with his wife after a decade and a half.
No, he won't. He can't give me a reason. I've been asking. I was like, were you abused? Are you? Listen, I've asked everything. You're, you're making yourself crazy.
There's no. I know. Then I start wondering like, if it's not me, because people, if you ask anybody else, they're like, oh, they're gay. If they're not gay, then oh, you know, it's somewhere else. And it drives you crazy.
It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You're looking for an absolution that will never come. Okay? Because if you're gonna get that answer, if he could have given you that answer, you wouldn't be in this position right now. That's true. If he told you the truth from the gecko, he wouldn't be in this position right now. If going to professional help and not getting fired by one, two, three different professionals, right? And by the way, good on them. It's unethical to take somebody's money that just can't, you know, I mean, it's like a contractor like who's unable to build a house in the area that somebody wants them to build it. It's unethical to take their money. So good on your therapist.
True. No, I know. I know. But therapists need to eat. So when they fire you, that's a big deal, right?
Well, I know. And the other thing is I've learned also from a a friend that a normal therapist is not going to tell you how it is. They're just going to listen. They need to be a doctor that can actually call you on your BS. So I think that's where I messed up too. I should have found a different type of therapist.
I don't know. Here's the deal. The days of reflection for you have to end at some point. Okay? You spend every minute of your day looking in the mirror at an, yeah, what have you done? What did you not done? What did you say? What did you didn't say? It's been a decade and a half. Fair. Mhm. Yeah. At this point, reflection, looking in the mirror, listening to another podcast, reading another book, going to find another professional is a, it's a Xanax. It's a way to delay going forward. Right? And it's better for the kids, right? Better for kids to see love.
I know you can't tell me that.
No, I'll tell you. I I think that's a, can be a straw man sometimes. Okay? So, um, it's yes, a loving household full of joy and laughter and connected relationship with two parents is is statistically better for children. And so people always ask like, well, then we should just get divorced because we don't have that. My answer is always no. Get that right. Two people can decide who've chosen a miserable marriage can choose an awesome one. They literally can can can choose that. And everybody listening are going, no, they can't. They for sure can. If you choose to make changes. If you choose to make changes. Mhm. And if you have a partner that's looking at you saying, I don't love you enough to do this. I don't love them enough to do this.
Can I just toot my own horn for one quick second? In 2018, maybe maybe 17 or 18, I got a new fancy job and my gift to myself was a major league ticket. All the baseball games. Yeah. And you just probably broke out in hives, didn't you? That's like one of your triggers. Like I hate B. Exactly. I live it every day. I'm a lifelong Astros fan and they were finally had a good team. Yeah. And I was coming on from work exhausted and I was laying down on the TV and I had a young, young little boy. Dad, let's go play baseball. Let's just watch the Astros. Let's go play baseball. Dad, let's go watch your Astros. And one day my son asked me, and he wasn't being manipulative. He wasn't, he wasn't old enough to be manipulative. He was just literally asking for facts. Dad, do you love me as much as the Astros? I canceled that ticket that day. It's off. I turned it off because what my son was seeing in real time was how obsessed I was with this baseball team. Okay? And all he was kind of crazy because I'm like, you're talking about a ticket and I, my life revolves around baseball. Like I know. But but I need you to say sometimes, I got it wrong. I thought I could have my cake and eat it too. I thought I could go work 14 hours a day on behalf of my family and keep up with my lifelong since I was a little bitt since I was zero baseball team. M. And I thought I could crash on the couch and just relax. And I thought I could do quality dad kid time all at the same time. And an innocent question from a three or four or five, I don't know how old he was. Um, and he wasn't trying to say, do you love me more than baseball? You got to choose. He wasn't doing that. He was just saying, I see you love that. I wonder where I stand. Right? And boom, we're off. And I lived on a steep, steep, steep hill and I chased baseballs up and down the street because he was a kid and he would throw him sideways or he'd miss the right. Right. Just became part of it. But here's the thing, as a choice I made. Behavior is a language, right? Yeah. What I'm telling you is, and I'm not better than anybody else. I just, I just happen to have that real life situation happened in my house. Yeah. Does my son know I love the Astros? Yep. Do I miss games? Yep. But you chose him. I choose him. Yeah. I choose my wife.
See, I think that's amazing. But I, we don't have that. I, something changed.
Choose reality. I know. But here's the thing. How do I protect them? Because the other thing that changed is this obsession. I've noticed now, just to give a snippet, is, you know, he didn't get picked to be assistant coach. And so instead of being a man about it, he decided it's a good idea. Let's tell our children what a bad coach you have. He didn't pick daddy. He's a liar. And I lost it. You do not involve children in adult problems. And now it's happened two times.
I know. But not going to his game. Like I, I know. But do, do you see? It's like he's immature. He's immature. He's immature. He's wildly immature. He's painfully immature. He's unwell, unwell, unwell, painfully unwell. And then he does something immature and unwell and you're like, no way.
Right? Well, yeah. You have to choose to start living in reality and stop being surprised. And what you've done is every time you set yourself up for, maybe this time, boom. Maybe this time, boom. And that's preventing you from taking the next step. I'm not going to tell you to divorce your husband. I'm not going to do that. That's your call. Right. Right. I'm not going to tell you to leave your husband. I'm going to tell you behavior is a language. Yeah. And if you go back and listen to this, you seem very resolved in your next step. That's what I hear.
I, I think so too. I think I just need to pull up my pants and just be prepared for it to be bad.
Have you sat on written on a piece of paper, here's what must be true and handed it to your husband?
No, I'm afraid to.
Why?
I'm because he only has him and his mom and he doesn't have true friendships. And I'm scared if I do that, since I've cleaned up every mess ever made, that what if there's either he loses completely loses control?
Are you scared of him being violent?
An I don't know. I don't know what to expect because last time I tried to leave a couple times, I'm afraid if he realizes he's finally losing it all, he's going to either be suicidal or he'll be the opponent. He'll lose his on me. I don't know.
Has he ever been suicidal before?
No.
Okay. Has he ever been violent to you before?
No. Punched a wall. Not me.
Okay. That's significant. Yeah. But I'm nervous. I'm nervous because, yeah, I don't know. I'm just, I'm scared that it's going to be a narcissist losing their.
You can't, you can't control the other side of this thing. Okay? Fair. So you can't control the other side. If you think he's going to be violent, then you have him served. If you think he's going to go off and do something irresponsible, call 911. I'll also say, if you've never written down on a piece of paper, here's what must be true, here's what I want and need in this marriage. No baseball, no major league ticket. We will pay bills together. We will be a household. If you haven't done that, try it. And if, if, if you know in your guts, we're past that, then do the next right thing. But yes, kids deserve to grow up in a home that they walk in the door and it feels safe inside. And yes, I'm right on this. Having two parents in that house that are connected and loved and provide that stability and safety, not conflict-free. Conflict's actually good because it shows kids two people can be in conflict and still be on the same team. That's the best. But coming home and having a dad that's so scary that you're afraid to even say, hey, here's what I need. A dad that is so devoid of responsibility and security and safety. Yeah. It's not a good place. I wish you the best, sister. Get people to walk with you. Sit down with an attorney and walk through every nuance here. Sit down with a couple of girlfriends that you can text 24/7, 365 as you enter into this process. Get some people to walk with you.