The King of Crypto: CZ’s Rapid Rise

Hello, everyone. Today we've got an amazing conversation with CZ. He's the founder of Binance. He's one of the most successful entrepreneurs of our lifetime. He's one of the wealthiest people in the world, and he's also someone who came from absolutely nothing. He was born in a village in China. As you're going to hear, this story is incredible. It's one of the best entrepreneurship stories in our lifetime, but also it is one of the most important stories in all of crypto because it ultimately explains one of the predominant exchanges in the industry, how it came to be, how they rose to all of the success that they've had, and what happened when they went through all of the pain when it came to the legal issues that they faced.

CZ is somebody who I've greatly respected for many, many years. Him and I have got to know each other, and I think that he's an individual who's got a story to tell. And so hopefully, as you listen to this entire conversation, you'll better understand not only CZ as a person, Binance as a business, but also how he, as somebody who saw the future of where this industry was going, how he sees it actually playing out in the coming years as well.

Here's my latest conversation with CZ.

CZ, I thought a great place to start the conversation is, you know, you're one of the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You've been incredibly successful both personally and professionally. I think a lot of people outside of the crypto industry probably don't realize how big a company like Binance that you built became. I don't think they quite understand how successful you have been. Um, but I always find it fascinating for people who have really driven their careers and reached kind of the pinnacle of whatever industry they've chosen, what their world view is. And so the fact that you built it in the crypto industry, talk a little bit about Bitcoin and cryptocurrency, what is its role in the world and how do you see the importance of that continuing to increase moving forward?

Yeah, sure. Well, I think you hit a pretty strong point, which is um, over the years I've learned that to be able to build a successful company, you really have to have a strong conviction. You really have to believe in a strong worldview. And hopefully, that's a bit earlier than what other people realize. So I think I got lucky. We got lucky. We got into Bitcoin early, right? So, you know, this is the third time we did a podcast, I think. Um, and um, so like in 2013, 2014, I came across Bitcoin. I was like, "Wow, this is this technology is going to be bigger than the internet, right?" So, and I didn't quite catch on the internet wave. So, um, I was just out of college and kind of in college. Um, and then when Bitcoin came out in 2013, I was like 35. Um, so I was like, well, I'm not going to miss this. So, um, I went all in. Um, quit my job, sold my sold my sold my house um and got into crypto. Um, I think having that strong conviction really helps. Uh, this is a technology for money and for f for anything in the future that needs proof. Uh, so anything that needs to be verified. Uh, you know, database is great for storage of data, but you cannot be verified easily. Uh, any everybody can have their own version of a database. Uh, and you have to believe somebody to to do that. So this new technology is primed at the time primed for finance, and we're still looking at the beginning of its adoption in the financial uh world. So for me, it was like this is a this is a big technology I'm not going to miss it, and the next one is going to come 10, 15 years later, which now we see as AI, I think. U so it's like one of those three fundamental technologies that I would face in my sort of adult life. Um, so that's kind of the the mentality I think that was important for to have that kind of strong conviction build a platform, etc.

Yeah. When you think about that worldview, you know you're somebody who I think has had a lot of life experience. Uh, you've moved around, you've uh worked at different types of companies. Um, and it feels like being exposed to a lot of different things in your life can help you uh not only one have empathy and kind of understand how different people view things, but also uh I think of intuition is kind of like your human algorithm. You're you're training it. And the more kind of exposure you have, the better you get at being able to identify it. Why, when you saw it, were you like this is going to be so big? Was it the technology? Was it the the I don't know the uh price associated with it? Was it something about the market like like what was the thing that really convinced you uh to to say hey this is going to be so big?

Yeah. So I think the u uh I was very lucky to have the personal experience in living in different countries. Um, I grew up like I was born in China, grew up in Canada, went to school there, worked in Tokyo, in New York and Shanghai. So I was like, you know, I was like uh uh well I was pretty close to a global citizen back then. Nowadays I'm a much more global citizen, but just that global experience um moving through through different countries, changing money, moving money from like Japan to to New York um I lost quite a bit on conversion rates um and then you also gives you a worldview that you know uh a currencies you're not limited by countries etc. So when the and also I have a tech tech background. So I was using my own PGP uh private key priv private public keys in 1998. Um, and so I understand the encryption algorithms used by Bitcoin, and then I worked in Wall Street like Bloomberg uh uh Tokyo Stock Exchange systems etc. So I understood I I have a financial tech background which is helpful to understanding Bitcoin early. And then for me it was really really important to look at the community, and I I like the community that I saw in 2013. So I think that combination of experiences helps helps me to understand this technology much earlier than other people. Um, so uh I was I was lucky to have that type of experience that allowed me to do that. Um, and also uh I was also uh I understood it enough for me to have a very strong conviction so that you know I I I can stay in the industry. Uh I was all in. So I think all of that helps. Um I think people's uh horizons uh or understanding of the world is really important. It's really important for people to have a world of view instead of a country view.

Yeah. So I did a lot of research to come and talk to you, and you know you and I have known each other for a while now, but uh I think most people know you from the professional component of this, and as I talked with people and and uh started to learn more. Um, you know, you grew up in a pretty not ideal scenario in China, and I don't think I quite understood that before. Can you talk a little bit about where you grew up and and what that life was like?

Yeah. Yeah. So, um I was born in a village uh in in like rural China. Uh uh I moved to from a from a from that small town to a real real village uh before before I can even remember the place I grew up that I remember we didn't have running water. We didn't have electricity. Uh even when I was in elementary school, I was studying under oil lamps with like a glass cover. So um a few years later we got like know we got a water pump that you can pump water out. Um and then uh then a few years later we got electricity when uh and then I moved to a small city uh in China and then I moved to Canada. Um so that was all before when I was 12. So um so that's like uh my life went through like you know quite big changes over time. Even when I was in Vancouver, my parents were teachers when they were in China. Um, but in Vancouver, my dad was studying as a professor uh or studying to become a professor initially. So my mom because she didn't speak English, she had to work in a sewing factory, sewing clothes, right? So she left at 7:00 a.m., came back around 7:00 p.m. Um, it's like minimum close to minimum wage. So uh we were like kind of we're not starving, but we're kind of at the bottom tier of the society, but we never had any debt. uh the you know the Chinese parents always have savings. So well we so we went through that I was like the second generation immigrant. Uh so I saw how hard how hard my parents work to give me that opportunity to be able to uh uh to have a word platform. So I think uh that mentality also helps. So that's why I'm relatively frugal. Uh I don't have I don't have a lot of luxury habits. Uh but I work really hard. So um that combination also helps I think. Um yeah. So that's kind of my upbringing. I consider myself extremely lucky knowing going from like know with no running water. Um you know we had to go my mom used to have to go to a well about 300 meters away, carry two buckets with a bamboo stick uh on her shoulders to get one to get water for the household. So going from that to like know where we are today. It's like yeah um it makes you appreciate life a bit more.

Yeah. Well, what's interesting to me is I think many people would associate you and the work that you've done is kind of being on the tip of the spear of innovation, right, and technology and uh so much of uh the success that you've had, I think, is uh embracing new technologies. What you're describing is a world where it sounds like there was almost no technology, right? Uh no running water, no electricity, like all this stuff. Did you know growing up that uh you guys didn't have a lot or was it just hey, everyone around me has kind of similar things and so uh this is how I think everyone lives?

So when I was growing up, I just thought everyone was was the same as us. Uh I still have that mentality. I think everyone's the same as us today. So um uh when I compared horizontally like people compared to the next guy to the guy next to them, right? So in in in the village, everyone's the same. Uh in fact like you know my my parents are still teachers. So they're actually slightly above average uh in that village. But then when when I moved to a bigger city I was like wow the city is much better. Right. the city the when we moved to a city that city called called HF it hosts one of the uh top universities in China uh in inside the uh inside the university campus they have paved roads like they have cement roads that was a new thing that was like wow this is pretty good this better than the dirt roads um so uh I've always kind of lived on the sort of a middle to bottom uh I wouldn't say poverty but like middle tier um um but every every step up I was like wow the world is much bigger uh so over my lifetime I I was experiencing the the the world becoming bigger and bigger and uh better and better. Um so I think that also expands my mentality to accept new things. Uh so like all of the all of us early adopters into crypto are usually early adopters. So um I think that also helps a bit. Um but yeah, I've always viewed myself as kind of the same as everybody else pretty much. U so I never really have a superior or inferior complex. I'm not like I hope I'm not I'm not overly arrogant but also no not overly pessimistic. I'm always quite optimistic in general.

What's uh fascinating to me is I recently watched the NBA draft, and there was a gentleman who was drafted, and he talked about that for seven years he lived with a generator, right? They didn't have electricity. They the family lived on a generator, and you could feel the emotion that was kind of overwhelming him in the moment saying I went from living with a generator for seven years. My mom sacrificed so much for me to be able to you know now play in the NBA. Um I I don't know if you are good at basketball, but uh you you have ascended to the NBA of technology at least. Um talk a little bit about your relationship with your parents and then you know have you ever had a conversation with them where they they've said they're proud of you or or or vice versa? You kind of had to go explain to them like hey we we may have opportunity for a different lifestyle now that than maybe we grew up with.

Yeah. Yeah. So u um luckily my relationship with both my parents are generally decent. Um I spent I didn't spend a lot of time with my father. My father's always um worked away from home. Uh quite a bit of uh his life uh making a better living for us. So I spent more time with my mom. Uh my mom didn't have huge ambitions for me. Um she's still extremely frugal today. She's like 83, 84 now. Uh she still complains groceries are too expensive, stuff like that today, right? I'm like mom you can buy anything you want now, right? So um u my dad is also quite frugal. Um my dad uh when I when I give my dad money once the second time like you know 6 months later or a year later I was like dad do you need more money I can give you more money. My dad always rejected it. He's like no I I haven't spent a penny of the money you gave me last time. So I've only given my money given that my dad money once. Um so they still leave their same life. Uh they haven't changed at all. Um so they don't want to you know they don't want to change their life. So my dad passed away two two two years ago. So, you know, uh um uh so yeah, I had a uh uh both of them are pretty uh I would say normal. Um I yeah, so I wouldn't say I'm super close with my dad, but he I think he he had a lot of influence on me regardless. Uh he's quite frugal. He's quite down to uh down to the basics. Um yeah, he's not a fancy guy. My mom's the same thing. So um yeah, so I I would say I have a pretty good relationship with with both of them.

Yeah. When you moved to Canada, uh your parents obviously bring you there. Uh you're 12 years old. What do you remember about that experience? And uh you know, Canada, uh coming from America, we kind of look at Canada as like our little brother sometimes. I know they don't like that, but you know, that's the joke at least. Uh but it is a very western, you know, and as close to an American experience as you can get not being in America. So that's got to be jarring, I assume, going from, you know, China, especially from a village to maybe a little bit bigger city, then all of a sudden jumping to to Canada, which is uh fairly developed.

Yeah. Yeah. That that was a that was a really nice experience. Um uh like in for example, when I landed, my dad had a friend who had a car to pick us up from the airport, right? For me, that was a big thing. I've never sat in a private car in in my life before that. Uh in China, you just don't have private cars. You know, I took buses and stuff, but never in a private car. Um and so and few days later my dad took me to buy a $400 Canadian dollar like um fourth time used car. I was like I was thrilled. I was like wow we have our own car. Um and then u uh the life in Canada is really good. Um you know the I think generally the life quality in Canada is quite good. Um it's safe. Um there's grass you know you play on uh you play with your friends. Uh school's really good. The school's not that taxing like they're not that highressured. uh school's relatively easy. Um uh I had time to study English etc. But overall just like the whole system is just really good. So I had a fantastic teenager years in Canada. Um and also college years. Um so which I'm still very thankful. Um I developed a a lot of good habits in terms of playing sports. Um I played a lot of volleyball in high school. I played like 15 hours a week basically three hours a day. Um I was captain for the school volleyball team four out of the six years. Uh so the later four years grade eight grade nine I wasn't but from grade nine second uh second half I was like a so I played a lot of volleyball um uh I did okay in academics um so uh I had a great relationship with all my teachers in high school um so uh we had a small high school with like when I joined it was only 200 students when I graduated like about 400 students uh so it's a small school uh everybody knew everyone else um so it was like a very um I would say like my teenager few years are some of the best years in my life. Um so that really helped. Um and um yeah, so I think can I still feel a lot of debt to Canada. Uh I think it's really helped me to grow.

Yeah. One of the things that you you talked about uh my wife as many people know is from Bulgaria and when she came from Bulgaria to the United States, uh she remembers that they were like solving for X in Bulgaria and she got here and the American kids were doing like addition and subtraction and she went from being like the the worst math student to the best math student for for a period of time. I'm assuming that the Chinese education system was much more intense. What was that experience like going to uh you know from the Chinese experience to to move to Canadian?

Yeah. So um my mom put me put both my me and my sister in school two years early because my mom's a high school teacher. So he she didn't want to take care take like know deal with us at home. So she just put us in school. Uh so when I uh I finished um grade eight or like the second grade of middle school when I came when I was 12 in China but when I came to Canada they said I'm 12 so I have to go to elementary school. So I went to elementary school for one year and then got into grade eight in the uh in the sort of middle school high school middle school and then um uh I was taking grade eight classes but math I was taking grade 10. So this is after one year delay I was still taking grade 10 math. Uh and then I participated in a few of the uh uh national Canadian national mathematic competitions there the the ferment uklids uh etc. Um most years I was placed in the top 100. Um the last year I was top placed like the top 25 or something. So I got a couple like you know small plaques etc. Um so math is always the my my stronger subject. Um so naturally math kind of leads into programming uh tech etc. So um uh that that part is easy. English is always harder for me naturally as a second lang second second language for me. So um uh yeah so but um I had I also had a very good English teacher in high school. Um I was probably the I was part of the ESL class, English as a second language class initially. Um most people from those classes don't get A's in the normal English class. Um I got a A most of the time in the English class because the teacher liked my writing. Uh he he commented I was witty. Uh so my vocabulary wasn't that wasn't that wasn't that much. Uh but I was always kind of funny in the in the writing and the teacher liked it. So I had a good rel relationship with him. That also instilled quite a bit of confidence for writing today. Even though I know I'm not a great writer in terms of grammar etc. I make mistakes but you know just having the fun part like the wittiness uh helps. So um yeah. So um uh yeah academic wise uh it's a bit different. I was stronger in in the sort of mathematics side of things.

Yeah. What is the story of your life from you graduate high school and then

You find Bitcoin 35 years old, give or take? Um, I, I don't think I really understand. You know, where did you go? What did you do? It sounds like you went to uh some of the finance shops, but also you went back to Asia. Just talk us through kind of what you were doing there.

Yeah. Yeah. So in my fourth year, so I, well, when I went, when I was in McGill, right? So the first, I always worked every summer. So the first summer I got a software intern job. The second summer I went to the same company. The third summer I found a job in Tokyo, um, doing intern, um, this company worked for a trading system that connects to the Tokyo stock exchange. So, uh, I was a junior software developer, and um, I developed some code, you know, during that, and then, uh, the fourth year, um, um, the same, I was working the same company gave me a job, and then, uh, we're working on a project. The project got delayed, so the my boss, my manager says, can you uh extend for one semester to finish this project because you're quite, you're now quite an integral part of this project; they didn't want to switch. So I said fine, so I extended for one semester, and then the project didn't, wasn't finished on time either, not because of me. But, uh, um, so the project extended a couple times. I end, I ended up never going back to McGill to finish the degree. So I actually didn't graduate from McGill. Um, but then I stayed working in Tokyo. Um, and then later on I found out that without the degree it's actually quite difficult for me to get a work visa. So I went through some online distant education to get the bachelor's degree. I transferred most of the credit, got a couple more courses, got that degree. Um, and then I was like, well, uh, and then, uh, I worked there for a couple years and then the 199, like the 2000.com bubble hit. Um, so most, like most, most tech stocks got uh dropped, and then that company I was working for got acquired by a company, by a NASDAQ-listed company, and but that stock wasn't doing well after the acquisition, so a bunch of people were leaving, and then I was looking for a job, um, and very few companies are hiring. Uh, Bloomberg was hiring in 2021, uh, sorry, 2001, um, and so I interviewed with Bloomberg on the phone, uh, we got an offer, I was good to go, and this is summer of 2001, and by September, 9/11 happened, right? So I called back to say like, "Why is the job still there?" Um, they said, "Yeah, the job's still here. Do you still want to come?" Like, "Yeah, I still want to come." So, uh, I went to New York, uh, on November, in uh, 2001. So, that's two months after uh 9/11. Uh, the streets, the streets were pretty quiet. Um, and, uh, but you know, I went there, everything was fine. Um, I continued to work. I worked in Bloomberg for four years. Um, Bloomberg actually helped me grow quite a bit. I joined as a senior developer. Um, but then, um, very quickly I got promoted like three times in about two years. Um, so I became, I, I, I be, I managed a team of uh 60, initially 60, later on 80 people. Um, some in New York, some in Princeton, um, uh, uh, and some in London, some in Tokyo. Um, they were working on a futures trading system. So that's like my first full-on, like that's what I call my second-generation trading system that I worked on.

Um, and then later on, four years afterwards, uh, I got promoted three times in two years, but then second two, the last two years I didn't get promoted. I, I look at the, at the organization, I was the youngest uh manager at that level, and I was the only Asian face. Everybody else is white at that time. So I was like, well, I, I have to wait for somebody to retire or die to, like, you know, move up to the next tier. Um, so I started looking at entrepreneurial activities, and then there was a group of guys who were doing a startups in Shanghai. I was like, "Okay, let's, it's actually the same, quite a few of the senior founders in the, in the Japan company I worked for before. Um, they were doing a new startup in Shanghai. So I said, I'm going to join them as a, as the youngest partner out of the six people. I was the only Chinese-speaking guy. Everybody else is, there's two Americans, two British, and one Japanese guy. So the six of us went to Shanghai to start a new startup called Fusion Systems. That's in 2005. Um, and then we did that. We've grown that company to a uh four, four different offices: Tokyo, Hong Kong, uh, uh, Shanghai, and Los Angeles. Um, and man, the company had about 200 people. Um, initially we struggled for a bit, but later on we eventually, we eventually became sustainable, like, you know, uh, we became uh slightly profitable. The partners are taking decent salaries, have a decent lifestyle. We did that for eight years. So that's from 2005 to 2013. And in 2013 I came across Bitcoin. And I was like, "Oh, okay. This is a new thing." I tried to get Fusion to do a Bitcoin payment uh service provider, like um, uh, BitPay. BitPay, like, you know, raised $4 million in 2013. I was talking with my partners like, "We got to do like a copycat of BitPay." But the other partners are older. They didn't quite get Bitcoin back then. Um, they said, "Well, no, we're not going to do it." And I said, "Okay, well then I'm going to leave and do join the Bitcoin industry." So that's kind of how that history kind of went out.

It, it's crazy to me how, uh, in hindsight you could always point to someone's career in terms of what were they doing, what were those details, how do they all kind of line up to each other in terms of, uh, eventually what you end up, you know, being highly successful at. Um, but, but, uh, uh, you only can do that in hindsight, right? When you go to Bloomberg or you go to uh, to Fusion, you have no clue what's, what's the uh future has in store for you. So it's uh, uh, pretty cool. Now you see Bitcoin. What's the first thing you do in the Bitcoin industry? So, u, I, I saw Bitcoin first. So it took me about six months to understand it fully, to have full conviction. Uh, I was introduced to Bitcoin in July 2013. Bitcoin was $70, right? And then by December when I fully understood it was like trading at a thousand, right? So that's the peak of December 2013. I was damn, I'm really late. I, I got to get in this early. Um, so I sold my apartment in like January 2014. Uh, and I got paid in trenches, right? So every trench I get, I will buy Bitcoin. Um, and, uh, so I got paid at, so I bought at $800, wine range at $600, of wine range. This is January 2014 was like kind of going down, and then by February or March I got the last payment and I bought like $400 US, uh, so my average price is about $600 uh per bitcoin.

Uh, and then you went from to like 200, 150 for like a, for like stayed at 200 for like 18 months, right? So that's like 2015, 2014 to early 2015. So, um, uh, I basically lost two-thirds of a house as soon as I bought, and, uh, luckily, like, you know, my family is pretty supportive, um, um, and they, other than my mom, my mom's like, no, you stupid kid, like, why, why did you do this, why couldn't, why couldn't you like kept your original job at Bloomberg, you were making good money, etc., etc. So, but anyway, she was just nagging, she wasn't really, she wasn't really able to do anything anyway, so, but I thought that, you know, either I was really wrong or everybody else is slightly off. Um, uh, so I thought, I actually thought I might just be, I might just be too early, so I just head on to it. Um, and 20, 2016, um, actually the, the c, the, the, the I guess it was a governor of the central bank of China, Mr. Joan, he, he suddenly said something about blockchain in one of his speeches, and suddenly the, the Chinese crypto industry became the blockchain industry, um, and the price started going back up. So, um, yeah, so went through that, was my first winter cycle, u, after that, um, everybody in crypto, right, after you go through your first cycle, the second cycle is so much easier because the, the much higher, so uh 100%.

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Yeah. So, uh, building an exchange is not a new idea. Every, like everybody I spoke to in crypto wants to build an exchange at some point. So in 2013, we thought about building a payment system. Then we thought about building an exchange. Uh, we talked about it. Uh, I thought I didn't have quite enough experience just to build an exchange yet. So I actually joined another Chinese exchange for, for a bit. But things didn't work out too well there. So I left within like uh less than a year. Um, and then I pivoted, uh, I tried to do a Bitcoin exchange in Japan because Mt. Gox went down in 2014. And then by 2015 I was like, well, we can do another crypto, Bitcoin exchange in Japan. I talked to a bunch of VCs trying to raise money. The VCs all suggested to me that I should become a, I should become a a tech provider to other exchanges, um, because they have invested in a bunch of exchanges in Japan, um, and I know how to build the systems. So, uh, and I got a couple guys together. We started building a system, um, and so we kind of pivoted from uh wanting to build an exchange ourselves to providing the exchange system. Um, that company actually became quite successful. We signed up a lot of clients who wants to do exchanges, um, some crypto, only actually only a small number of crypto exchanges, but majority, um, there was another growing phenomena in China back then, uh, on the what they call stamps exchanges, cures and stamps, um, that's a whole different story, but they, they needed systems with order book matching, etc. But we have the systems. So we actually signed up like 30, 30 plus uh exchange clients. So this is a B2B business. We, we, we charge a monthly fee to the, to the, to the, to the businesses. And it's actually a very steady business. Um, but then in early 2017, the Chinese government shut most of our clients down uh because they don't allow that type of exchanges anymore. And then, uh, we're like, well, what are we going to do? Uh, well, now we have a team because we're servicing 30, 30 clients, 30 plus clients, etc. We had a team of about like 25 people at that time. Uh, mostly tech guys. So, and one or two sales guys. So we said, well, let's, let's do our own exchange now. So we kind of pivoted backwards. So the idea wasn't new. Uh, it was like the, so this is what I tell entrepreneurs. Ideas are not worth the paper that they're, they're written on, right? So it's all execution. So by 2017, uh, we have the system, uh, we have our own team, which I thought is a pretty high-performing team. I really like that team. Well, that's the still the Binance team today. So, um, I, none of them are like fancy resumes, you know. None of them are fancy guys. All of them are like, I would say quite relatively down to earth. Uh, relatively young and junior, but they're all very good. Uh, so I thought like, now this team's pretty good. In 2017, um, uh, most of the other exchanges still Bitcoin exchanges. Coinbase didn't even support Ethereum back then, right? So Ethereum wasn't listed. Coinbase has Bitcoin, Litecoin, something else. Um, and most other exchanges were not prepared to handle ERC20 tokens. But 2017 was the sort of ICO year. Everyone was issuing uh, um, uh, ERC20 tokens. So Binance, we issued the ERC20 token ourselves, and then we started uh supporting all the ERC20 tokens on Ethereum. Um, so that was a niche we caught on, and then the other guys wasn't reacting fast enough, and then we really revamped the customer service in the crypto industry. Back in 2017, if you raise a support ticket, you'll be waiting for two months or more if you get a reply. And this is when your Bitcoin withdraw stuck, and you don't have it, you can't trade it, the, the price is moving, and you're stuck there for two months, right? So, we thought, no, that's a, I have had those experiences on other exchanges which are not good. I said, okay, let's do 24-hour response longest, and then we push to one hour. So, um, uh, so we built a really good product plus really good service, and then we also got lucky in the sense that we protected users like no other exchange have done before or even since, um, so we got lucky in a few of those points, and you know, then Binance grew.

Yeah. When you're going through that hyper growth, you basically brought to market something that no one else had created. You're solving a problem, right? Which is, uh, I think anyone that I know has had any degree of success in business or been able to build any amount of wealth for themselves personally, you can always go back and say, "Hey, what was the thing you provided to the market that they needed?" And you guys were, were doing that. Um, what was it like when you were hitting that hyperscum? 2017 was the first cycle that I went through where I was like, "Okay, this is going to get kind of crazy, right? Uh, this is not just a Bitcoin thing. This is, you know, all these coins are going to keep going up." Um, and then there was a big crash, and I got to imagine that there's some like emotions that follow price uh in this industry. So what was that like, you know, in the early days of Binance?

Yeah. Yeah. So that was a, like the, the first I would say uh 8 months is like surreal. It's just everything, like, uh, is unexpected. Everything's like, uh, kind of hard to imagine. Um, when we start, we started July 14th, 2017. Um, a six weeks later, like a month and a half later, Chinese says, "Okay, the Chinese government says no more crypto exchanges in China. We're like, okay, we gotta, we got to pack up, a, we could shut down or we could pack up and move." Uh, because again, this is this comes back to my international experience, right? So, I was like, it's easy enough to move. I've been, I lived in many places outside of China. We can move. So, we moved 30 people from China to Tokyo back then. So, we decided like, no, just not, just not have a China base. Uh, so that was a bit surreal, and, and um, uh, kind of hard to imagine for most businesses. Um, and then, uh, we didn't have any fiat channels. Uh, no banks worked with crypto exchanges. Uh, not in China, not, not anywhere else. So we were forced to deal with the blockchain. So Bitcoin, we were crypto-to-crypto exchange. So Bitcoin deposit, um, on the blockchain, you can fake to Ethereum, withdraw on the blockchain, etc. Um, but that actually, uh, that would limit our user base to a very small number of users per country because most people want are more familiar with banks. Um, but when, then we found out that wait a second, with this small number, there's a small number in every country. Uh, so we were actually, we, we, then we have a global platform. Um, so then the moving out is quite easy, and we saw our business grow. Um, and then by, uh, within like two months we were like the top 10 exchange, and then, uh, another four months later we're the top five, and we stuck at the top four for like about a month, and then by, by December, five months after we launched, uh, we were, I was in Tokyo. Somebody messaged me and says congrats. Was like, well, what's going on? He's like, well, now you're the number one exchange. Uh, and the Bitcoin price went through the roof too. So the volume is really high. Um, uh, uh, so Bitcoin went from like 3,000 at the beginning of the year to 17, to 19,000, uh, at like, at peak in December. I almost like, on the same day that we reached number one in trading volume. So, um, and the system's crashing like crazy. I, I'll give you a little story, right? So our CTO, um, uh, he's like, you know, managing this whole system with all this load. Um, our product manager, uh, sleeps late. So he will, he, he, while designing the product, like, you know, design the buttons and screens, he will monitor the community, um, and if there's any issues, he will call the CTO, and there's usually very a lot of issues, he will call the CTO almost every night at 1, 2 a.m., and then our operations guy, like our pro, what we call the project manager, um, he's, he wakes up early, and when he wakes up, like, at 3 or 4 a.m., hey, look at the community again to check, make sure there's no, no issues, and if there are issues, he will call the CTO, and for like a month, for like, for, for many months, both of them will call the CTO, like, the last thing they go to sleep and the first thing they wake up. So the CTO wasn't getting any sleep, um, when there serious issues, I, I'll get wake up. So, uh, it was like that kind of environment for like, for months, and then, uh, in January 2018, um, we hit peaks where we were getting like uh 200,000 registers per hour. Uh, we got 300, 300,000 users registering per day, and our system couldn't handle it. It's not just like, it's not as simple as people think that you just put a email and password in the database. We had huge back, backlogs, right? So, we didn't, we couldn't stick to the one hour or 24-hour response. So, all of that happened. Um, and then actually in January when the, um, when the Bitcoin price went down, the beca, the market became quieter. It actually gave us a bit of breathing room, like we were like, we were literally like, like swimming uh before that. So when the market went quiet, our trading volume went down, but we actually got some breathing room to, to, to rebuild. Uh, we were never really worried too much for me, like, you know, when Bitcoin was like $6,000, I was fine, you know, I was like, this price is much higher than what we anticipated. Um, so I, the second, that would be the second cycles that we go through. So, um, that didn't cause, from a business, pricing, financial perspective, we didn't feel any pressure. Binance has always been profitable since uh 3 months in. So, uh, every single day.

Yeah. So I, I was going to ask how much money do you think you made in the first year because it, it's uh, it's kind of a crazy story. You launch this thing, and it just takes off, right? But to what scale in the early days? I think we made about a billion in profit in the first year. I think we're, I think we are probably the uh, the first company to hit a billion profit from startup, and that was, and that was what, in only the first like six months really, if you launched in July. Uh, I think bulk of it is in the first six months or so. Well, the bulk, like the bulk of it from months three, four to like months seven, eight-ish, um, that's like the peak where, where we, we had, where we had the tremendous volumes.

Prof profitability, the quickest back so in the first year of operations you hit a billion dollars, which is just absurd, right? What are you thinking at that time? Are you like, wow, I'm a genius? Are you like, oh my god, this is going to go away? Like, what are the emotions? Do you ever stop and you're like, that's pretty cool? Do you celebrate the billion-dollar milestone?

Uh, well, actually, I took a much more balanced mindset back then. I was like, well, this is based on Bitcoin price at today. Uh, when the Bitcoin, when the Bitcoin price goes down, our pre- because we hold our profits in crypto. So we don't convert it to US dollars because we believe that crypto longer term will will rise higher. So there will be volatilities, but we can handle it. So, um, I thought that we just gotta, we just got to make sure that we have enough cushion uh to survive any downturn. So that was like in my head, uh, it was like, no, we just want to make sure we let's not, let's not get too excited right now. Uh, let's not distribute all the, you know, earnings, and then on the next downturn we will be in the red, right? So we, we got to survive. So, um, uh, yeah, and then the price actually did go from like, you know, um, $20,000 to $3,000 in early late 2018. Uh, um, so yeah, so back then I also, um, uh, the the profit numbers shadowed by the amount of assets on the platform, right? So the amount of asset, user assets on the platform when we had to like rearrange code wallets, we'll be transferring billions of dollars, and the first time you do that is like really shaky, but after you do that a few times it's like, oh, that's just a number. So you kind of your, your mind gets numbed to the number, is it just a number? And uh, you look at your own wallet, you don't have that much money. And so when I look at my own personal wallet, I never cashed out. So I don't have, I don't have any money. So I didn't really, it was like a more of a virtual number. We're in a virtual industry. So yeah, I, I remember, u, I was in New York City and I was walking and I, I can't remember if it was 2018 or 2019, but all of a sudden, all over at the time, Twitter, uh, Binance gets hacked. And I remember reaching out to someone on the executive team at Binance and saying, you know, are you guys okay? What is there anything that uh to do to help? And um, it was, it was chaos because everyone's trying to figure out what happened, who, where's the money, all, all this stuff.

Talk about that because I think that you know, when people hear, oh, Binance went from zero to a billion in profit in the first year, everything's amazing. You guys had just as much, I think, kind of challenges and pains along the way as every other, you know, uh, company in this industry, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So that happened in May 2019. Um, so we suffered a hack where um, the hacker emptied our BTC hot wallet of 7,000 BTC. So at the time it was about $40 million. Um, so uh, we shut down withdrawals for a week. Um, and then we, but we kept trading on because we didn't want the price fluctuations to be out of sync for with other exchanges. And then um, uh, I within like a couple hours from the hack, I did a live AMA. Uh, the live AMA was actually scheduled beforehand. I was going to have a monthly AMA. It was just like the next day, the next morning. So, I went on it. Um, and people, uh, people, people analyzed my posture, my, you know, expression saying that we had the funds to back it up. Um, just to give some context, uh, back in 2019, $40 million uh was probably about we calcul was about a month of revenue. So, it wasn't like, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't going to bankrupt, bankrupt us. But everyone's very agy, right? So, everyone, we were very nervous, too. Were like, like, is that the only thing that they, they can take away? We were like, no. Um, so this is always the biggest risk in crypto is security. Um, and then uh, I think we, I established with a team back then, we got to get on Twitter every two hours. Every two hours we're going to give, give an update. Um, and what we're doing, uh, uh, we were doing a proof of reserves. We were doing like, we, and actually looking back that's probably a blessing in disguise. Um, yeah. So uh, back then everyone, uh, everyone was really edgy. Uh, uh, what's interesting though is um, after a week later, after we enabled withdrawals, we returned everything to normal. We saw more deposits back into the system than withdrawals. So people actually were more confident with us in how we handled the hack. So I think that was a very good lesson for me that if you just being very transparent, always there um and just take responsibility, deal with the issue, people actually, the hacks are the security instance actually build more trust in you. So I think recently we've seen some of that uh as well. People who, who handle those instances well actually build, builds more credibility. But yeah, it's not, it's not an easy business. So it's uh, it's just so many issues. Yeah.

We, we can't talk about that hack without the uh, funds are SAFU. You're going to have to explain uh where that came from.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So um, uh, so um, I first said, no, obviously, when those things were happening, no, I said, I tweet about the funds are safe, right? Um, and then somebody, I forgot his name, um, uh, somebody, a YouTuber made a YouTube video, um, uh, uh, and then he portrayed me as a Japanese guy, and in the video he says, funu uh as a pronunciation, and then the next time when we had any kind of withdrawal uh pause or, you know, system updates, I adopted that, I, fun desu, SAFU, right? Um, and then that kind of, no, I was kind of embracing the meme, and then, you know, then, then the community kind of rallied behind it, and that became a meme, so uh, that became very popular, so I every time I see it, it cracks me up because uh, because of that moment.

All right, so you get, you get into uh, out of 2019, past the hack, uh, 2020, obviously things kind of get crazy again, coming out of uh, of co, talk a little bit about um, you know, now you're kind of prepared to a degree, right? You've had that breathing room. You're now uh building this big business. I think the world now understands, at least the people paying attention to crypto, Binance is big. Binance is successful. What happens in 2020 and 2021 that maybe is different or or that you think is important?

Yeah. So, um, 2020 was like a warm back, warm-up year. I would, I would say like, u, I think in 20, in 2019, Binance launched the Binance Launchpad, like in the, in the bottom of the winter, like when I, I remember when Bitcoin was 3,000 or so, uh, we launched, you know, um, Binance Launchpad, and then we rolled out a slew of features, now we continue to revamp the system, um, by, it was like 2020 was like a Walmart year. 2021 was a really, the explosive year. Uh, 2021, at the beginning of 2021, we had 20 million users. At the end of 2021, we had 120 million users. So, we're going like five, 6x uh during that year. In 2021, the Bitcoin price went to like 60,000, right? So, um, so yeah, uh, that was again a high-pressure year, but that time we were much better prepared. The team's bigger. We're still struggling here and there. Uh, we're still struggling on customer support. We're still struggling on some of the system issues, etc. But 2021, we had a bigger team. uh, we uh, we're more mature in, in, in the industry, etc. So that was a really strong growth year where we got a lot of users and our reputation is also kind of out there. So uh, we're kind of a long, no longer a new platform. So that, that was the the main growth year in, in sort of as far as I can remember.

Yeah. And at some point you guys go from, you know, what I'll call like kind of a a niche crypto product to very quickly the the number one crypto product to eventually it's on the world stage and everyone starts showing up and um, I think that I saw you in Singapore maybe in 2019 and I remember you kind of being like, oh wow, this is like, this is big, right? And you could just feel it at, at you guys had a conference in Singapore and I just remember looking around being like, there's a lot of people here, right? And uh, as you get into 2020, 2021, I also think that there became a lot more scrutiny on the crypto industry and that's when it kind of started, but no one was really uh doing anything about it. Obviously, as we get into 22, 23, then it felt like there was a crackdown, and so talk a little bit as to, you know, this like explosion in 21 and then really success being met with friction from governments, not only in the United States, around the world though um, ends up really kind of causing problems, I think, for a number of companies in the industry.

Yeah. Yeah. So I think we met in January 2020, 2019. Um, and that's, that's when the bot, bottom of the bare, the bare market. Um, that's like when Bitcoin was like 3,100, um, and, and um, but even at the bottom, like, you know, when we organized a conference, there was still quite a lot of people, right? So u, and then by 2021, u, the market was pretty hot. A couple months later, SEC filed a lawsuit against Binance US, Binance and myself. Initially, that lawsuit had like, you know, accused us of fraud, saying that we moved customer money, and they actually issued a um, emergency freezing order, um, like a temporary restriction order, order, and that froze all, all the assets in the company. I gave a $250 million loan to Binance US. I couldn't get a penny back until recently when the case is fully dismissed.

Shortly thereafter, obviously, you come under your own scrutiny uh from regulators and and uh, talk through a little bit as like what happened, right? Because I think people read headlines and and frankly, even I, you know, you and I know each other and I don't even know if I know all the details in terms of like what exactly happened, um, what did they claim you guys did? What did you get in trouble for? What was the punishment? Just, just walk us through this whole situation.

Yeah. Yeah. Sure. So um, so that was FTX was November 2022, right? So uh, December 2022, people got really panicked about, you know, safety of funds on centralized exchanges. December, we exper, Binance experienced like a lot of withdrawals in that one week, we uh, there were 14 billion US dollars withdrawn from the platform. Um, the on the, on the high day was a Wednesday, $7 billion got withdrawn uh from the platform, but we handled like, and again on that Wednesday, I was having, uh, I was having dinner with Matt Rosak, uh, Bruce Fanton, u, plus Gabriel, plus uh, Calvin Chan in Dubai, and they were like, wow, look at all this withdrawals from Binance, like, why are you having drinks with us? It was like, I'm not managing a buy, like withdrawals myself. So that was December. We, we, we had, we like the platform handled $14 billion of withdrawals, no issues. And then a month later, by January 2023, SEC lawsuit came. Uh, the SEC lawsuit was pretty much like was trying to accuse us of a FTX, right? So they said, "Lucky, you moved user funds um, etc., etc." And the judge even said like, asked them like, you have zero evidence. This is part of the court transcript which is public. So um, that, that thing happened and then uh, Binance US at the time of the SEC lawsuit was about 35% of Coinbase's global trading volume. Um, so market share wise, so it was like uh, I would probably imagine it's about 50% of Coinbase's US market share. Uh, after that lawsuit um, Binance US lost um, the banking channels, um, it dropped to about 1% of Coinbase's volume. So it went from 35% to 1%. So that's how much impact that, that is on a business. Um, and then uh, uh, after that uh, they became the, the, the DOJ stuff. So the DOJ came later. Um, so the DOJ stuff, uh, I have a plea agreement with the DOJ. Um, I cannot say anything that violates the plea agreement. But the plea agreement basically says, uh, I, I agreed to violation of one charge of banking secrecy act. Uh, we um, uh, we were going to debate in court about the sentencing. Um, I was a bit surprised that I was sentenced to jail. Um, because uh, I was the first one in US history to be sentenced to jail for a single violation of banking secrecy act with no fraud, no prior history, um, uh, nothing else really. So um, I was a bit surprised. Um, but it, it is what it is. Um, I voluntarily flew to the US to deal with it. That outcome is a possibility that I knew, uh, even though I thought it was a small possibility, but you know, it happened. Um, yeah, and then I did four month, four months in the U, four months in jail and came out luckily okay.

Um, yeah, so you, you were outside the US while this was starting and then you voluntarily flew to the US, which, you know, um, there are many people throughout history, there's a famous story, I don't know if you know the story of a guy named Mark Rich, who he actually invented the oil spot market and he uh got in trouble and he fled the US, he went to Switzerland and he refused to ever come back, right? And um, he actually got pardoned at one point by Bill Clinton, and it's uh, I think there's a book called The King of Oil that I read years ago and it's a fascinating story, right?

I read that book. Did you read it?

Okay. I read that book like a textbook. So, well, I read all the books. Um, I read, I read quite a lot of books about part, people getting pardoned. I read um, um, u Mike Milken's book, uh, well, Witness to a Prosecution. Yeah. About, about uh, about uh, I read multiple books about Mike Milken, um, etc. So yeah, I met, I read, I read those all of those books before I flew to the US. I read them like textbooks.

All right. So, but, but, but a big thing is in Mark Rich's case in particular, he left the United States and um, you know, he, I, I don't think he was an, he wasn't born in America. He'd become an American citizen. He fled. Uh, and then he stayed away. He never came back to the United States ever again. Um, I think that there's an element of you voluntarily coming of, sure, maybe you didn't think that there was a high probability of going to jail, but you still came and you know, I don't think anyone would suggest, hey, you should not come, face the charges or, you know, run or anything like that, but I do think that there's plenty of people who would do that, right? They would just say, hey, I'm not coming, and so what was like the calculation or, you know, you can't talk about like the conversation with your lawyers, but just like what was that like? What were you feeling, you know, did you talk to friends or family or, or, or what as that was all playing out?

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, there were, I mean, it's a very difficult process. I don't know how to describe it so that people get it. um, it's, it's unimaginable, I would say, um, even through the process, there are multiple times where you, you, you think about the choices, right? And there will be friends or lawyers giving opinions and uh, devices, etc. So there's all of those things going on, and you're reading books about, you know, what's happened, the, the type of lifestyle that Mark was going through, um, his office, his building, his security, you know, uh, all this stuff, um, so uh, and multiple times you have to think about, well, okay, where if I make one choice, I probably, there's a very high chance I will be living life as an international fugitive, right? So I will have to be very careful about every border I cross, etc., and the my business is going to be destroyed on top of that, uh, my uh, a lot of our users will, a lot of BNB holders will, will suffer. Uh, the BNB price will definitely tank, um, and u, uh, multiple, this, there's just going to be a lot of damage in, in the industry. Even the BNB, even the BTC price will probably get hurt. Uh, you know, we saw like when FTX went down, BTC price got hurt pretty bad as well. So that's uh, the, so there's one choice which is, okay, um, I can probably live a reasonable life, um, just, you know, holding out in a few countries, there, there, there are quite a few countries you can live in without extradition treaties to the US, um, but I thought like overall, that's a, that's not a lifestyle for me, right? That's not a, a running, hiding, running away from things, avoiding is not the lifestyle that I, that, that I want. Um, I did have some trust in the US justice system, um, I thought, you overall, uh, regardless about the politics, um, the war on crypto, um, chokepoint, Operation Choke Point, all of that stuff, you know, that's politics, uh, I'm, I still have a degree of confidence in the, in the US judicial system, so um, I said, well, let's, on the flip side, uh, I go there, um, I could be, I probably shouldn't be, even worst case, I'll go to jail, probably shouldn't be that long, um, and I think that's a very small possibility, I thought a higher possibilities case, I have a home confinement for like 6 months or 12, 12 months or so. Um, so at least then I would personally still be safe. I wouldn't be like without the inmates. I thought that's a, that's a, that's an outcome I can deal with. Um, and that's, and also that's a reasonable outcome which says, look, um, either just probation, right? So I

Already resigned from from from Binance as the CEO. I already paid a huge fine. The company paid an even bigger fine. Um, I thought all of that would suffice. Um, so, um, it was a difficult calculation, but I thought I would uh it's much more responsible for me to take it head on and address it and deal with it and deal with whatever outcome, uh, instead of being a sort of um a runner, um avoiding avoiding avoiding things.

In doing in doing this, um, I heard a story that you missed the birth of one of your children dealing with all this. Is that true?

No, no, no, no. Uh, I uh I uh I didn't miss a birth. Uh, my son was born, my latest son was born in July, uh, 2023. I flew to uh uh I flew to the US, uh, November 2023. Uh, and my other son had a minor medical operation which I missed.

Um, so when I flew to the US, um, we we didn't agree on the plea arrangements. Uh uh the US uh the the government want to keep me in the US. uh the DOJ wants to keep me in the US, but they promised that they will not limit my movement in the US. So, I I'm free to go anywhere in the US, but they don't want me to leave the country. We of course argued, like I paid $150 million bail, uh, and I have three other friends putting up their houses uh uh to to sponsor me, and I flew in voluntarily to plead guilty. It'd be worse if I plead guilty and don't show up for sentencing. Like that's that's crazy, right? If you want if you don't want to come you don't you don't you don't plea, you just fight. So, um um so the first judge, the magistrate judge, said I can leave, but then the government appealed the uh the the bail uh hearing, which is unheard of, my like no, uh but what's even more unheard of is the judge actually sided with the government and said, okay, I have to stay in the US. So I flew there with like a small suitcase of like, you know, a couple change of clothes, and then um I had to buy clothing in the US, and then I missed one medical procedure for my slightly older son.

Um, so, um, yeah, so that's that's what happened. Yeah.

And then Got it. Yeah. And then I was only supposed to be there for 3 months, first between, uh, sent between plea and sentencing, there should only be a 3-month gap. Uh, my sentencing hearing was originally scheduled for February 23rd, 2024. In in early February, on my birthday, the government requested an extension on my birthday. Right? So, uh, there's a lot of mind games that's being played. So, and of course the court readily agreed to a three-month extension, and I requested to leave the US. Um, the court says no, you have to stay in the US. So, I stayed for six months in the US away from my family just waiting for sentencing and then four months uh after that. So, yeah.

And so, you don't once you go to the US, you don't see your family again until you get to leave post uh post all the sentencing stuff.

No. So, yeah, I didn't I mean, in theory, my family could visit me, but they don't have the proper visas anyway. Uh, and also I didn't want them to come to the US and deal with other issues.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think anyone who's got young kids and, you know, family and stuff, it's also, uh, god forbid they come, they can't leave, or there's other issues or, you know, whatever, right? I think it's understandable.

Um, all right. So, you get sentenced. Uh, my understanding is you got sentenced to four months in jail. Is that right?

Yeah.

All right. Um, I also read somewhere that the first cellmate that you had was a double murderer. Is that true?

Yes. Yes, that's true.

Okay, you guys have to tell me this story. I mean, that's pretty crazy to go from running Binance, uh, making a billion dollars in the first year, uh, you know, yeah, you started off life in a in a pretty tough situation, but now you're in a cellmate uh with a double murderer.

Yeah. Well, on top of that, even before I got to prison, so between prison and between sentencing and going to prison, um, so the government, the the DOJ actually asked the judge to remand me, like put me in handcuffs and take me to to to prison. And the judge said, "Look, I shown very good behavior for the first six months. I didn't have any violations uh while I was on bail." Uh, and the judge said there's no need for supervision for me at all, which actually had some interesting implications even after sentencing. Uh, I had no parole. Uh, I was just like, "Wait, when I'm done, I was done."

Um, but in that um uh uh but then uh in for my crime, I'm a white-collar crime. I should be I should go to a minimum security prison, which where they most people call the uh the camp the camp um the camp, usually like, you know, they some camps don't even have fences, you can leave, but then your sentence will increase. Most people in camps were like a few months, a few years, a couple years, so they they won't violate it, um, but because I'm not a US citizen, um, I they put me they had to put me in a low-security prison, um, so the low is one year higher in the low; there are mostly drug lords and then uh people. But my first cellmate was a double murderer. He was serving a 30-year sentence. He did 18 years. Uh, because of good behavior, he got moved down uh to medium to a low. The low is the lowest he can go. He will never go to minimum. So, and because of my ethnicity, uh, they put they they group people by ethnicity. So, they group the Asians uh together with Pacific Islanders together with Native Americans into one group, one car. Uh, this way uh they organized by ethnicities to avoid uh violence. Uh, you actually know if you hang out with your people, your of your same ethnicity, ethnicity usually the same culture, there's less clashes. So uh uh I was sent to to said, okay, this is your roommate, and the the other guys, no, he's pretty chill, but you understand he's a double murderer. Uh, he killed two guys at once.

Um, but no, we got along just fine. Uh, he's actually quite chill. Uh, the most lethal the most lethal part about him wasn't his murdering. It was his snoring. He he snores really loud, and the first night I was like, should I kick him or because I mean he's a double murder, might not be a good idea, but the next morning I told him, look, bro, you you you know that you were snoring pretty hard. I told him in a pretty friendly way. He said, well, just just just try to wake me up, well, just try to kick me when um when I snore. So that's that's what I did in the future, and we got along just fine. Yeah.

Now it's pretty scary. And also before I went to prison, the Bloomberg, Wall Street Journal, uh, they all published I'm going to be the richest person to ever go to a US prison, right? And this doesn't help, right? So, uh, like I don't want to like break privilege, but multiple people said, "Look, this may increase your chances of being extorted in prison, right?" So, uh, luckily the people in prison, not that many people read Bloomberg and Wall Street Journal. So uh so yeah, what were there any situations where you felt, you know, unsafe or or people tried to extort you or anything like that?

Actually, no. Um, so uh I was very worried, but throughout the whole experience, I think it also has to do with how you conduct yourself. Um, I got, you know, I got along with people around me pretty quickly. I I got into a group, um, and you know, I was a part of a group very quickly. So um uh I don't think I showed any weakness. So I don't think anybody I I didn't see anybody try to extort me. People do try to like, know, trying to like, you know, get a better deal when you want to do something, etc. But nothing I would say are physical uh risks, etc.

Yeah. Now um I got to imagine if uh somebody is sitting in a uh low-security uh prison and uh a very wealthy successful person shows up. They got to ask, you know, what do I do with investing? How do I learn? Is there any conversation around you trying to educate them while they're on uh on crypto or bitcoin or any of that stuff?

Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, well, this inmates and their guards, um, so the inmate uh event was pretty soon the word passed around; they figured out who I am, and then they were like, oh, they u luckily a few a few guys want to learn about crypto and want to learn about investing, and they were like, okay, fine. So we got books sent to the prison. Um, we're uh so I I had a little kind of study group with them. I sit down with them like for 30 minutes every day. Um, I give them some homework to read. They ask questions, and they actually there were like nine TVs in the in the in the in the unit. Um, they actually changed one of the TVs to like a financial channel, which is like what they started looking at Bitcoin prices um etc. So which is kind of interesting. Uh, so actually that group also uh uh is I felt that that group also probably helped me to avoid quite a lot of trouble because once you have a group of guys who are supporting you, you generally other people pick on you less.

Um, and then there's a group of guards that figured out who I was. And uh, the guards asked me, "Hey, is this good time to buy Bitcoin?" My response is pretty simple. It's like, I don't have internet here. Um, I don't have information. So, I don't even know what price it is, even though I do know because I I have my friends sending me messages about the uh, just the sort of general market updates. Um, but I I just told them that and I said, "Look, I don't have information. I can't give you any advice. I wouldn't know." But they mostly the guards mostly took it uh, pretty well.

Um, so far I think I did not see any major violence in in in prison. There were some fights uh but not related to me. Uh, so I think most mostly the US prison system, at least the minimum security that I was in, um, I didn't see any major violence.

Now we talked about uh Mark Rich, which it's hilarious that you read that book, and I love that you said you studied it like a textbook. Uh, Michael Milken. Uh, there's many examples of people who uh were either accused of, convicted of, or even put in uh in jail um who have been pardoned. Uh, I think that we have seen uh the existing administration pardon a number of people. Uh, some of them uh you know have drug offenses or or things that I think are considered more kind of uh non-white collar. And then we've also seen a number of white-collar uh criminals who uh have been pardoned as well. Um, my understanding is that there's an entire process here, but is that something that you're trying to uh get approved? What is that process like? Kind of walk us through, you know, your thoughts on this uh this idea of a pardon?

Yeah. So, um, I think I don't know that process that well. Um, but as any felon, everyone wouldn't mind a pardon, right? So, and especially in my case, I do think that um uh there's probably some uh there probably uh some politicalness in my case where um 5 days before my sentencing, Senator Elizabeth Warren declares war on crypto again on national TV and writes a public letter to the DOJ. So, um, again, uh, whether that's political or not, I cannot comment. So, um, I uh I personally wouldn't mind, I obviously wouldn't mind a pardon. Um, so, um, but that's a process for the lawyers. I actually don't know that process that well. I wouldn't want to comment on it too much. Yeah.

Um Yeah. But uh also Yeah. And speaking of kind of this like idea of lawfare, right, where that they're uh writing this stuff, how do you think through, you know, okay, there's certain things that you're accused of. You obviously plead guilty. I think that people say, hey, you know, uh um there's a process that gets played out. You said earlier that you have this, you know, confidence in the judicial system. Um, but do you think that there was lawfare involved in the you know kind of investigations and prosecutions and stuff like that?

Um, I think on the SEC front, I think it's very clear that I can say that there's definitely lawfare there. Um um I think, you know, we the case got dismissed now with prejudice. So the we can see that this new administration are much more uh are much more reasonable uh in terms of, you know, how to regulate the market. uh is I think they understand the nuances of, you know, being in um being a new technology, new industry, etc., and the balance between encouraging innovation uh versus protecting uh well at the same time protecting consumers. So u I think we've seen that uh uh attitude difference.

Um, so, um, and also uh not so much on my case, but if you look at our President Trump, so he's I thought he was like a prime target for lawfare and for well political target too, like when I was in prison, right, so I got into prison in the end of May, u by July, um, I saw, you know, President Trump went to Nashville to attend the Bitcoin conference. I was like, wow, this is cool, and then his pro and then he declared his pro-crypto, and then uh I think was Kamala Harris that also declared she was pro pro-crypto. I was like, "Wait a second, I'm still in jail here less than two months, and now the government's pro-crypto now."

Um, so uh and also I read the uh uh President Trump's charges. He got charged, he got a criminal charge for bringing some documents to a to his bathroom to read. I mean, like that's crazy, right? If if my employee did that, I will give them a bonus, right? Then the guy takes like some confidential company papers reading on his in his bathroom. The guy's working really hard, right? So the guys literally have zero other time to like, well, using every minute of his time to read stuff. So I thought that was a bit extreme uh as well.

Um, so um I think um uh there's defin I think there's the last administration was against crypto. I think that was pretty clear. Um, with Elizabeth uh Warren, you know, declaring uh war on crypto multiple times um with uh uh Gary Gensler um suing, initiating lawsuits, etc. And now we see that this new administration is, you know, much more friendly to crypto and much more have a much deeper understanding on finance and technology. So um yeah, again, the definition of lawfare is very subjective. Um, I wouldn't comment on too strongly, but I do think there's probably some elements of it.

If uh if I was president for a day, I would pardon you. You know, I I [Laughter] that counts for absolutely zero, but that that's that's what I would do.

Um, all right, before I let you go, le let's uh let's talk about kind of the future, right? Um, obviously uh you are um one of the most successful entrepreneurs of our generation. Actually, you know what a question people want to know: how much money do you have? Are you allowed to say? Well, they want to know how how successful are you, and I think uh wealth is like a quantitative measurement. Are you able to say anything publicly about that?

I know I have enough money to live. I also have enough money to do stuff, so anything I want to do, I have enough money to money is Money is an enabler for you to be able to do what you think you need to do. That's in my case, it's not so much, you know, playing golf and all this stuff, that stuff I got like I can handle that, but the if I want to do a business that helps people that you know that have positive impact, I have enough resources, so money is no longer the limiting resource, um it's other things, it's uh uh talent, it's people, it's health, uh time, all of those things are limited resources, so I'm much more focused on those things instead of the money power. I I uh I think that makes a lot of sense.

If you ever want to take Binance public, feel free to call me. I'm sure there's a lot of people who'd be interested in that.

Um, all right, talk to me about where's this all going, right? So, obviously uh Bitcoin was kind of your first love in this industry. Uh, you've built, you know, the the leading exchange. Um, where do you think that as an industry this goes now, especially since governments around the world are supporting it? Seems like there's, you know, hundreds of millions of people who are signing up to to adopt these assets.

Yeah, I think right now we're we're extremely bullish, right, with the US uh the the the world's largest, most powerful uh government adopting uh pushing crypto. Now we're seeing you launched a BTC treasury public company. That's fantastic. Um, so I think we're going to see a lot more uh institutional adoption uh both on the ETFs on the public uh treasuries uh BTC treasuries uh a couple companies launch B&B treasuries, the ETF, the Ethereum treasuries, there there's a whole bunch of, so I think we're going to see the traditional equity markets coming into crypto in a big way, um uh we're going to see a lot more innovation in terms, I think there's going to be an intersection between AI, well there is an intersection between AI and blockchain, I think that's only going to get bigger, um, and I think we I'm also seeing a lot of governments adopting blockchain for uh uh for government solutions, decentralized IDs, um um land title rights, um uh healthcare benefits, uh welfare distributions, taxes, um all of that stuff is is happening too. So I think we're finally seeing blockchain expanding beyond just a trading or finance uh single-dimension kind of thing. Now it's going to multi-dimension thing. So I think all of those things are happening, and all of those things are really really good. So um I think with uh uh I actually didn't expect uh if you asked me this like nine months ago, I would not have said this, like we will be in this kind of kind of environment, but this also speaks volumes to the um to the to the to the government structure where the elections can change um can bring bring in new ideas and um innovative leading ideas very quickly. So I think with the US leading, um, the the the rest of the world will follow on on the policies, and we would love to help the US to become the capital of crypto, um, we would like to contribute, but right now we're limited in some ways, um, so we hope to be able to contribute more um in the future, but it's kind of crazy, right? Like you guys are the biggest crypto exchange in the world, you're not in the United States. We want to be, uh, and also when we look at the market, right, the US exchanges charge about 10 to 20x fees what they charge, but Everything everything else in the world you buy, you buy them cheaper from the US. Like look, I use Amazon, right? Everything else you buy on Amazon is cheaper in the US. It ships faster. It's, you know, uh any anything you do, it's cheaper in the US. Hamburgers are cheaper in the US. So, uh, but it's only in crypto that the US consumers pay a much higher price right now, and you have a much more limited uh product offering, and we would love to contribute, but uh there are regulations in place, so we need to go step by step.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it seems like uh if you guys want to be in the United States, uh this administration wants to be the crypto capital of the world, then maybe there's something to uh to be done there.

We would love to be we would love we would love to be part of the contribution to to help to help to make that happen.

Yeah, absolutely.

All right. Well, CZ, thank you so much for taking the time to do this. I I know that uh um you know you've had a ton of success in the business world, and people are always excited about kind of your thoughts, but uh it's pretty fascinating to hear I think a story of somebody who, you know, growing up without electricity and running water to eventually becoming, you know, one of the best entrepreneurs, one of the wealthiest people in the world.

The world is, uh, is one of those stories that, um, as this plays out, it's almost, you know, out of a like a fairy tale, right? Where, uh, every, um, every person who has success, you know, they have some obstacles along the way. And whether it's you, Binance being hacked, the obviously the legal situation, etc.

Uh, one thing I think I've always admired about you is you just keep chugging along, right? And you kind of deal with it and and keep pushing forward.

Absolutely. So, I think we're just onwards, right? So, we got we got to put in this world or simulation that I call it. Uh, we just got to we just got to we got dealt with a hand with a hand put in a situation. We just got to do the best we can. We just got to keep moving forward.

And also I want to thank you so much for all your support along the years and, uh, you know, uh, we've never really spent that much time in person, but, um, you know, I've always respected what you have done, what how how much you've contributed to the industry and always also be a levelheaded voice in in this industry and also in your America overall. So I really appreciate everything you've done.

So yeah, looking forward to doing more together and onwards.

Sounds good. We'll talk soon.

Okay.

Yep.

All right.

Thanks, Mom.