Transcription
Did God know the fall would happen? Yes. Do you think they regret it?
It reminds me of a politician, you'll remember who this is, when he said, "I did not have sex with that woman." He regretted getting caught. He didn't regret the action.
Do we have numbers on each side?
There's a reference where the dragon sweeps a third of the stars down by his tail. It's referring to a third of the angels fell.
Let's talk about the fall.
Okay.
What happened?
So, when the angels were created, the so the whole hierarchy of angels is created at once. Now, the way angels know things is the the exact opposite of the way we know things. The way we know something is we have to come in contact with the thing. We have to work with it for a little while, then eventually kind of gain a more abstract knowledge of it, and eventually we can kind of have a universal knowledge of the thing. So, it takes us a while to actually get to the point where we fully understand something. And so, and we even see this even when we wake up, you know, we wake up, it takes us a while to get fully functioning. And even when we're going to make a choice, a lot of times we have to go through a series of steps to kind of consider various things before we make the choice. Okay. That's because our knowledge comes through the senses. We have to be in contact with something, and then from that we can actually know something about it. Um and derive and we can also infer knowledge based upon that um about other things that we don't necessarily see, etc.
Okay.
With angels, their their knowledge is infused. So, at the time by God, that's their mode of knowing, St. Thomas says. So, what at the first instance of their creation, God did two things. The first is he, in addition to creating them and creating them in a this state of grace and state of perfection, he also infused in them the knowledge of all of the essences of created things. And basically, what that means is they know exactly what a human being is, they know what dogs are, cats are, they know they know the natures of these things. Whereas human beings take a while to finally fully understand those things, they immediately exhaust everything there is to know about those just by thinking about them, to the degree of their intelligence and infinite knowledge. It's not infinite cuz it's still limited because they're limited, but it's they instantaneously understand everything that could be known about that thing to the degree of their intelligence. Instantaneously, they don't have to think things through. Okay, so that's when it comes to the natures of things. But but that's distinct. That kind of knowledge of things is distinct from knowing this thing is going to happen at this point in time. Those are called particulars. So the ones are kind of called universal knowledge of things. The particulars are infused in them as they actually occur. So by God. So for example, the angels and the and the demons know what we are talking about as we talk about it cuz it's infused in their minds. So for example, if they want to know what's going on in another room, they just have to think about that room and then boom, they can see immediately what's actually there. Okay.
When they were created, um they were created into an act of knowing because they instantaneously exhaust what there is to know. And in that that act of knowing, they learned a few things. One, who they are. They instantaneously saw their own nature and their specific difference. They actually understood by that fact that God had given them an assigned task. And that assigned task that he had given to them is who they are. They're It's their very nature of who they are. Then, um which we'll talk about what that means in the fall. Plus, they were given knowledge of all the other angels cuz it's all infused. They give the knowledge of all the other angels and their assigned tasks. They were also given knowledge that God was eventually going to become incarnate through Jesus Christ and that there were going to be certain human beings. Those who were created guardian angels were given knowledge of the the person that they were going to have to guard and to protect and certain aspects of that person's life. Because they would actually be told, "This is the person you're going to be um be uh protecting and this is his that that this is God's will for him in certain respects. They didn't know all of it, but they knew a lot of it. Okay. They understood so they understood who they are, who the other angels are, what their assigned task was, what their um uh these other particular things. And then they also knew who God was. And they also, St. Thomas says, were infused with faith, hope, and charity. So, they actually knew that that God, the second person of the Trinity, was going to be coming incarnate. And we we actually know that from scripture. That they were given that knowledge in the very beginning because when Christ first first shows up on the scene, they're like, "Is this the guy? Is this the guy? Is this guy?" And then once they see he's doing miracles and he's doing all this other stuff and the nature of his teaching, they realize, "This is the guy." He's the only only Christ could explain that who this guy, you know, cuz we were told that that he was going to be coming incarnate. Okay. So, they knew that Christ was going to be coming incarnate. And then um uh and they also knew that God was going to create human beings, etc. So, but they they also knew God, they had a perfect knowledge of God, they had knowledge that he was triune because of their faith that God would showed them that he was triune, that there's God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, God the Father, that he was triune. All of that they saw in an instant. Wow.
So, they saw all of that and the resulting factor that that they they saw that intellectually. The natural response of the will, St. Thomas says, when they saw that was delight. The beauty of it, the magnificent, the grandeur of it was just so magnificent that they just they were taken by it in their first instance. And so, their first experience in their will wasn't their first choice cuz it was something which the will just naturally gravitated for towards because it was so beautiful. Um that was the that's in their first instance of their creation cuz remember they're in the aevum which has a sequence of events. So, they have they have um that's the first instance. Because they saw that, they also were that in that same thing, they also saw if they were faithful, they would get to see God face-to-face and be happy for all eternity, but if they rejected God, they would be in they would be damned in hell and miserable for all eternity. So, they knew what the punishment was going to be like then. They have absolute clarity about that. There's not It's not like human beings were sometimes a little hazy for us. It was absolutely clear.
The second instance is then in the second instance, St. Thomas says, they looked at intellectually, they could see the temptations what all the other angels were going through. Every single intelligent being in order to be in the presence of God has to go through a test. And the test that the angels had is they had they were created with a set of perfections, but they could see higher perfections ab- above them. And they could see that having those perfections would be actually a really good thing, but in order to have that perfection, they would have to reject their assigned task because it's not part of their nature. It's part of something else. And so, when they saw that perfection, um that's at that point that they they had to perform an act of sacrifice. They either had to sacrifice the desire for that perfection that they saw that they would like to have in order to remain faithful to the task that God had had told them that they had to do. And so, but if they were faithful to that task, what they would get is the beatific vision, which is above any perfection that they could possibly have. And so, that was their actual test. So, that's
So, that created jealousy.
Uh in a sense, not in the sense that they had they didn't have those kinds of emotions that we have, but they saw that perfection and what would be like to have it would be a wonderful thing. But they had to be willing to sacrifice that lesser created good to ultimately end up seeing God face-to-face, which is the greatest of the highest good, the greater good. And we can kind of return to it cuz that's the same problem we have with human beings, the same thing we live out every single day. But that we have to sacrifice every single day to in order to achieve the greater good. But they have that they saw that greater good, so that's what they saw intellectually. So they even saw Satan's temptation. And they knew or Lucifer's temptation, and they knew that if they chose to reject their assigned task and have a and choose to just desire this thing, they were never going to get it. But just to desire it, um then they knew they would be under Satan, so they saw that whole complexity. And then they made their choice. And so with them, they're very different from us than human beings are. The reason God has mercy on human beings is cuz we're stupid. No, it's true. We We as human beings, we make decisions and then, you know, afterwards we're like, "Oh, that was a mistake. I shouldn't have done that." And that's why God has mercy on us. So if we're sorry for it, God will actually, um you know, have mercy for us. But with the angels, they're not stupid. They know exactly what they're doing, and they know the full ramifications of it. So when they make their choice, their choice is all in, and their will becomes completely fixed on that choice, whether it's good or bad. And this is why even in session, demons will say, "Yeah, it was a bad choice, but I'd still do it again." Cuz their wills become fixed in that. So they make their choice, and then the third instance St. Thomas says is because unlike human beings, get me out, we can make stupid choices, but then we can kind of start getting our act together later. God gives us time to work through that process, and then at a certain point when we die, it becomes fixed, and then then he either condemns us or he brings us into heaven. Um so for us, it takes us time to to out our salvation, as St. Paul says, you know, in fear and trembling work out your salvation. So, it takes its time. Whereas the angels, it's a one-shot deal. And so, once they make that choice, their will becomes completely fixed. And so, St. Thomas says in the third instance, then God levies judgment. Just like all human beings have to go before Christ and and and uh he judges us, all of them were judged by the second person of the Trinity as to what their condemnation would actually be or their reward in heaven. And so, they're immediately damned or they're immediately uh taken into heaven and see God immediately.
How how How do we know this? I mean, some of this is not in the Bible, correct?
Uh it's Yeah, some of it parts of it are not, but parts of it actually have to do with two two forms of knowledge that the church has. The first is um saints who have had mystical experiences and also just the general working out theologically of how these things actually work. The second component has to do with the collective experience of exorcists for 2,000 years. Because my experience as an exorcist is not any different from the exorcist in the 1st century AD. And so, how demons talk and what their psychology is and what they end up revealing is consistent throughout those 2,000 years. So, it's all of that kind of taken together. So, it's theological reasoning. So, if you read St. Thomas, it's all based on theological reasoning, but it's also based on a lot of scripture, but then also the mystical experiences, but then also just the church's collective experience in actually dealing with them.
It's recorded information through time.
Exactly.
Let's go back into the fall.
Okay.
Did they all fall at one time?
Yeah, it's all done at the instant Yeah, they all fall in that second instance.
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Um
Do we know?
Uh well, the scripture um the description in the Book of Revelation is, you know, I saw um um Satan fall like lightning. So, [clears throat] it was just boom, everything had shifted and changed instantaneously in the li- in the in the experiences in the lives of the angels. So, either the you know, the the angels that did the good there will the chose to do their assigned task, they all became fixed in the good. And then of course they got to see God right away. But then the angels they fell and according to the fathers of the church and it's actually true by the way, in session, I've told demons, you know, I command you to consider you think to weaken them, I command you to consider the the the your first instance of delight that you had. Because that when they first that joy that that that delight that they had crushes them now because it's so painful for them to consider how joyful it was in that moment. Um so you actually see these things kind of playing out and um but they also will some of them will actually under certain circumstances God will compel them to reveal what their their judgment that they underwent by God. And so you find out what those actual things actually are in relationship to it. So it's this massive shift and like lightning falling.
Did angels from every rank structure fall?
Uh we know from the lowest eight ranks that there were ones that fell from those. There is some debate about whether one fell from the the seraphim or not. Thomas Aquinas says they didn't. Uh a majority of the theologians said they that from that top rank they didn't fall. It was just the ones from cherubim on down because there was nothing to look up to other than God, basically. And same for St. Thomas, it was um that they saw God and their in their first inclination was to love him that they couldn't that that it was because of the strength of their charity or love for God that they just did what he asked.
Are there still angels falling today?
Uh no. So that all the angels, since there's no more creation of any angels and since they all went through the first instances together, um none of them are falling now. So they don't It's not like you have an angel that ends up later falling.
Do we have numbers on each side?
According to the interpretation of the fathers based upon what's in the book of Revelation, there's a reference where the dragon sweeps a third of the stars down by his tail. That has been interpreted universally by the patristics, that is the fathers of the church and also theologians throughout time as referring to a third of the angels fell.
Can angels redeem themselves?
No.
Demons, I mean.
Yeah.
The demons.
Once their will becomes fixed in evil, it's irreparable. It can never change.
Do you think they regret it?
You know, it reminds me of a politician, you'll remember who this is, when he said, "I did not have sex with that woman, so-and-so." He regretted getting caught. He didn't regret the action. And it's the same thing with them. They have remorse in the sense of it bothers them and they hate themselves for it and they're sad about the fact that they committed the sin and that they um and that they uh you know, that they're going to be damned for all eternity and suffer for all eternity, but they would still do it again. In fact, I had a demon actually say that. So I said, "Command him." because I was trying to weaken this guy. I said, "So let me get this straight." By the way, when I put it colloquially, you know, in the interview, it's very structured. What I'm saying, I command you to tell me X, Y, and Z. But uh I just said, "So let me get this straight. You were created to have the beatific vision, yes. And you were created with this phenomenal perfections and the the ability to see this, yes. And you saw that beauty in the first instance, yes. And you knew that if you were faithful, you would enjoy these things, yes. And you knew if you weren't faithful, that you would suffer this and you and this yeah and you you're suffering this now, yes. And you do it again, yes."
Did God know that was going to happen? Did God know the fall would happen?
Yes. Because he's outside of time.
Why did he allow the fall? Is the fall ultimately the test of the human being?
Uh well, we we are all tested as
the ones that influence our mind, correct?
Yeah. It's Let me ask you this. Would you want to be around someone who you forced to love you?
No.
No. You want someone who wants to love you and chooses it on their own. It's the same with God. God created us with free will. And in order to have that free will, he allows us that certain percentage of people to fall, uh both human beings and angels to fall and reject with him for the greater good, which is those who are faithful, who voluntarily chose to love him.
How did they gain access to our mind?
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