Best Probiotics for Dogs & Cats: The #1 Secret to Better Digestion, Skin, Immunity, & Health

Welcome back to the Next Level Pet Parent Podcast, everyone! I am so excited about today's episode because it's truly a game-changer for any pet parent looking to improve their pet's health and yet, yes, even cut down on those vet bills because, at the end of the day, who doesn't want that, right?

Today, we're diving into a topic that I believe is one of the simplest yet most powerful ways to transform your pet's health, no matter what diet you feed. And that topic is prebiotics and probiotics for pets. Maybe you've heard of them before, or maybe you're wondering if they're just another trend. Either way, by the end of this episode, you'll know exactly what they are, why they're important for every pet, and how to pick the right one for your individual dog, cat, or horse.

Pre and probiotics can improve digestion, reduce skin flare-ups, and even contribute to healthier mental well-being, AKA less anxiety and stress. I've seen the difference that pre- and probiotics can make firsthand in my pet's health, and I can't wait for you to experience it as well. But don't just take my word for it. We are joined today by someone who has been a trailblazer in this field for over 20 years, long before gut health was even a buzzword. Julie and Lee is here with us today. She is the visionary behind Adored Beast and a true pioneer in holistic pet care. Julie has dedicated her career to helping pets thrive through the power of gut health and has been diving deep into the science of prebiotics and probiotics since the beginning.

So, whether you're listening with a pen and paper in your hand or cuddling up with your pup or kitty, you're in for an amazing episode. Let's jump right in. Julie, welcome to the show.

Thank you again. It's always, it never feels like work when I'm talking to you guys.

I'm glad to hear that. It's the same for us. Yeah, I'm super, super, super duper excited about today's podcast because I honestly think that we talk about pre and probiotics every single day. Yes, Charlie, we talk about gut health, we talk about how incredible pre and probiotics are. So, and I also, I think it's one of the easiest ways that pet parents can help enhance their pet's health, no matter what type of pet food they're feeding. So it's, it's, yeah, I'm very excited to dive in.

Yeah, so let's, let's get straight into it. Okay, first question right away: How long have you been researching pre and probiotics for pets, and what inspired you to dive deeper into this topic?

Well, 1994, I guess. So how long? It's like 30 years, right? Yeah, like, yeah. 1994. Um, and what made me dive into it was it was accidental in a way because back in '94, Purina didn't even have, um, their probiotic out, you know, Flora, Flora. And they, you know, the vet association didn't support it. You know, they, the vet association still wasn't supporting probiotics in, in 2006. So, uh, so what would happen is that animals would come into my clinic, and I have been, you know, a raw food advocate, fresh food feeder forever. And so they would come in. One of the very first things I would do is change their diet. And because I was a newbie homeopath and, you know, not too sure exactly what I wanted to give them, the first thing they would go home, I would do their case, go through all of their files from their other clinics, and then they would go home with a food change. That was the first thing that they would do. So, and then I would work on their case, and then I would call, I mean, unless it was like an acute thing, but then I would call them back to come in for their homeopathic remedy and their supplements and things like that. And, you know, often just the food change alone, if we were doing it too, maybe too quickly, or, you know, back then there were no commercial foods, so they couldn't just go to the pet store and buy a balanced, already-made food, they had to make it themselves. So, you know, then you're depending on like, did they get the right ratios? Did they, you know, all of that stuff? So a lot of times animals would get some GI stuff, not anything horrible, like, but some soft poop or whatever it was, usually the, the, the situation. And, um, so then I would put them on probiotics, right? They would call up, you know, they would get my vet techs or my receptionist, and they'd be like, "Oh, well, you know, so-and-so's got soft poop," and we would say, "Well, come on in and get some probiotics." So they would come in, and they would get probiotics, and very often they'd start getting better right before I would even prescribe the homeopathics, or like, not maybe as profoundly better as when they had it every combination, but definitely improvements, you know, improvement in energy, improvement in stools, vitality, itchy skin, whatever. So I started really thinking about it, going, "Oh, that's, that's so interesting. Like, why are they getting so much better with giving them probiotics?" And, and pre, I always have always given pre- and probiotics right from the very get-go. And that was, you know, I can thank my, you know, longtime mom's naturopath for that. So, cuz we, we knew about that even as children. So, um, yeah, I just, you know, all different things started getting better. So I started researching it more with people, right? Because there was no information out there for animals. So I started looking more and more and more into the, the improvement that people were getting when they were using pre- and probiotics. And, and that evolved into looking at leaky gut syndrome and, and, and what that did. So, yeah, I, I think 30 years I've been researching the microbiome and pre- and probiotics.

It's, and so much has changed in those 30 years. Like, now, you know, probiotics are very common, very, very popular for people and pets to be on probiotics. Everyone seems to be familiar with the term. Uh, so that's exciting that a lot has changed on that front. Um, I, I remember one time you told us that you even had, you were even forced to like, take an article out of, um, or unpublish an article or something like that.

Yeah, yeah. I wrote a column for the Vancouver Sun called Adored Beast. And, you know, every, every week, they would get, they would say, "Send me questions from people." The public would write into the Vancouver Sun, and then they would send it to me. And someone had asked the questions, "Can I give my dog human probiotics?" And I wrote an article just about how important gut health was and what do pre- and probiotics do and how, what are the benefits and all that stuff. And, yeah, the vet association made me retract it, too. And that was in 2006. And that, I had to retract it because there was no science-based evidence to say that pre- and probiotics were supportive for dogs. And then, like a year later, uh, Purina came out with theirs. And, so, yeah, I mean, it, you know, fast forward it from 2006 to to now, you know, that's, you know, 18 years. I mean, you can't open up a, a magazine or watch something on television or go on the internet without seeing something to do with the microbiome and, and gut health and, and stuff.

So what has changed now in the scientific field of pre- and probiotics? What is the science showing us now? Uh, because would you say pre- and probiotics are very much supported by science now?

Oh, yeah, definitely. And, you know, that's a, that's a love-hate relationship sort of for me, um, when it comes to that, because I feel like we have to be careful that we don't get too much in the box with, with, with that. So, you know, um, pre- and probiotics and postbiotics are something that is very scientifically, um, uh, researched now, from, you know, with the gut-brain axis, to the gut-kidney, to the gut-heart, to the gut-bladder, to the gut-joints, to, to the gut, like, you know, they're, they're isolating, uh, bacteria that has an affinity on certain organs. Right? And I think that's amazing. Don't get me wrong, I think that's a really, really good thing. But I also feel like we can't lose sight of the ecosystem and, and how, how diverse it is. And that there's no way in the world that we're going to be able to produce, um, something that, that, like, you, you have to be careful not just to be, you know, feeding too many of the same strains all the time. That's why we really recommend changing our, changing, like, rotating through our, our different strains. Um, but it's a, it's a, it's a very exciting field that, that we're just, just starting to tap into and look at and, and understand for sure.

Before we start digging into the benefits of, uh, pre- and probiotics for our pets, can we just talk about what exactly pre- and probiotics are?

Yeah. Um, and I'll add postbiotics too, to that. Yes. So a probiotic is friendly bacteria. So it's beneficial bacteria that does, that does a, a kaleidoscope of things, from regulating hormones, to, you know, over 80% of the immune system, to, I always say that the, the, the microbiome of the gut is the conductor of every system of our body. So we actually know for a fact that the, that the gut speaks to the brain, and the bacteria in the gut regulates the brain function, right? So that's how important it is. And regulates whether or not, you know, brings the immune system up, brings the immune system down, you know, regulates, modulates the immune system. So the probiotics are the beneficial or, or, uh, friendly bacteria. Prebiotics are the food. The, the, the, what drives those engines, what drives the, drives the probiotics to be, um, viable, to sustain them in the, in, in the. So the, the prebiotics are the food for, or the energy for the probiotics. So they, they, they need to be together. You know, and sometimes people are even saying, you know, you need more prebiotic than you do probiotic. Like, that's, that's how important they are. But what I found is they produce the postbiotic effect. And the postbiotic is the conversion of, you know, short-chain fatty acids, being able to convert, you know, vitamins, minerals, um, nutrition from the food that we eat, be able to repress and stop pathogenic bacteria, like E. coli, Salmonella, Clostridium. So the postbiotic is the, the sort of, like, the short-chain fatty acid perspective of, um, the conversions of, of those two working together. So that, that's why for me, prebiotics are really interesting, and they always have been. I've looked at prebiotics differently than most companies from right from the get-go. And, you know, science is showing me now, and us now, that it is actually really important that the, that the prebiotics are equally as important as the probiotics. And because the right amounts and the right partnering up of those make a more beneficial postbiotic.

So what exactly are some of the health benefits of feeding pre- and probiotics to our dogs and cats, and even to our horses, and to ourselves?

And to ourselves, exactly. Um, I would say everything, like, almost everything that you can imagine, it benefits because it does, you know, like I said before, it's the conductor of the symphony. It regulates hormones, it creates better brain health, it absorbs nutrients and our, our vitamins and minerals better. It's really important, modulates the immune system. So when we hear about all these autoimmune diseases, like allergies and, you know, different kinds of, you know, autoimmune diseases, which animals have tons of, thyroid, the list goes on and on. It helps to modulate the immune system. So when you think about giving your dog prednisone or Atopica or Vetalog or Cytopoint, those are all immune-suppressive drugs. And if you have the right immune-modulating effect in the gut from your pre- and probiotics, the gut should be modulating the immune system, they don't need to have, um, immune-suppressive drugs. So, yeah, everything, you know, joint health, skin health, um, brain health, anxiety. There, there is nothing that the microbiome doesn't contribute to.

There are so many things that, uh, even our customers have been talking about, like just including a pre- and probiotic in a diet, like, a lot of times pet parents don't even realize, "Oh, yeah, actually, my, my dog did get calm now that you say it." Like, things like that that you would never think that, uh, there actually is a correlation between adding a pre- and probiotic, supporting gut health. A lot of people think that it's just for digestion, but it is so much more than that.

Oh, more, yeah. So that is really exciting. Um, is there, like, a specific scenario in which you believe that pre- and probiotic supplements are especially important? For example, during or after antibiotic treatments and things like that? Are there, like, specific conditions that you think are an absolute must?

Yeah, um, definitely after, after antibiotics, that's, that's for sure. Uh, or even at the same time as, as antibiotics, but, you know, four to six hours apart. Um, because antibiotics can't choose between good and bad bacteria. You're taking an antibiotic to, to destroy something pathogenic, and, but it doesn't know how to, like, selectively choose that pathogen over the rest of the good microbiome and the rest of the good bacteria in the gut. So it's vital to, to replenish that post-antibiotic. Um, but, you know, lots of things decrease the vitality of good microbiomes in the gut. So processed food, certain drugs, stress, you know, there's, there's many factors that can decrease the, the microbiome in, um, where the, where the body really does desperately need it to be reestablished.

And would you say any pet can benefit from a pre- and probiotic, or do you think that this should only be for pets who already show symptoms?

No, definitely proactively. And there's lots of puppies and kittens and pups and babies that are born with a really, really, uh, limited microbiome. So if the mother, um, doesn't have a very strong microbiome. So if the mom went on antibiotics a year before they got pregnant, um, but didn't reestablish their gut microbiome, or they're not eating really well, or they're taking a drug on a regular basis that that destroys that microbiome, or they're in a very stressful job, or, um, you know, in, in, or, you know, they're, they're breeding dogs, so that, you know, they're, they're canneled a lot. Like, there's a million different reasons why a puppy, a kitten, a pup, or a human baby could be born with a very deficient microbiome. And it takes a lot then for them to show symptoms. By the time they show symptoms, the body is usually, you know, malnourished, right? Because the, the bio, bioactivity of, of absorbing their nutrients is not there. If you wait for symptoms to happen, then it just takes a longer time for you get to get them reestablished. You know, all different things cause it. So we're, you know, we're fighting pollution every day. We have, you know, our animals are, you know, on, on, on flea control and all different things that are going to affect the, affect the microbiome. So I don't, I don't look at probiotics as something that you now and then add. I look at probiotics and prebiotics as a maintenance, like a, like a sustain, like something that's you, you, you sustain to do as a proactive measure.

So since we're on this topic, many pet parents actually ask how often or how long they should be feeding probiotics to their pets. And there's even some source on the internet that say that, you know, pets may not benefit from daily probiotic supplementation. But I know that you have a very different and unique standpoint on that. So can you elaborate on how often and how long you think pets should be supplemented with probiotics?

My view on probiotics is that you should be rotating them. And I think that that's what's the most important thing. And what people are trying to say on the internet is if you're, if you're feeding one or two strains and you're treating them all the time, then you could overpopulate the gut with those strains. But if you're rotating through different strains, different prebiotics. So my philosophy about prebiotics is very, very different too, right? So when you're looking at supplementing an animal and, and the prebiotic is, is FOS, right? Like a fructose or inulin or something like that, then, you know, should you be feeding that all the time? I, I don't, I don't know. But, and it doesn't really matter. My philosophy about prebiotics is that prebiotics should be functional. So what that means is that they should be creating something else in the body besides just the prebiotic effect. They should be, they should be, um, you know, giving the body something else. So our, our one of our prebiotics, as an example, is Chlorella, right? So Chlorella has many benefits, antioxidants, all kinds of stuff. But we also did a, a very detailed study on it to see its effects as a prebiotic, and it's incredible, right? It's really, really good. So, you know, using a prebiotic in, like, a soil-based probiotic, which is what, what we do with our, with our, with our Chlorella soil-based probiotics, are giving a very different bacteria than just a regular lactobacillus. So, or turkey tail, right? So our turkey tail has all kinds of other medicinal supportive functional value besides. So when, when I say I think that pre- and probiotics should be given every day as a prevention or as a, as a, um, a proactive approach to health, that's also saying that you rotate them, and you, and you use different prebiotics and different probiotics, and, and keep moving it around. The other thing about giving it every day, and I wanted to say something too, quickly, is that we, you know, we can be feeding great food, or we can be feeding food that's like processed and doesn't have a lot of nutrients and antioxidants and things like that in it. But just in general, our food source now doesn't really have bacteria in it, right? Like we've sterilized a lot of stuff. So, so back in the day, when we were eating, I'm just going to use humans for now, when we were eating food, it was coming from a, from the ground that had, that had bacterial-rich topsoil. And so the plant itself, um, would, would uptake the benefits of that bacteria. We don't have that anymore. So we are, we are, this sounds really weird, but we are lacking in bacteria. So, you know, we've gone like full, full, full steam ahead about everything has to be sterile, everything has to be, you know, no bacteria, no bacteria. And we've done, done ourselves a huge disservice through our food and through our resilience and our gut of using beneficial bacteria, destroying beneficial bacteria. That's the other reason why I think that animals need pro-, pre- and probiotics every day. And there are studies out there now that show how, basically, the pets that have the most diverse beneficial bacteria range are going to be the healthiest. So which also again means that, like, the more beneficial, different strains of bacteria or probiotics we can give to our dogs, the better. The more vital they are, the better health they will have.

Yep. It's true. It's like, it's, it's an ecosystem, right? So when you think of a forest or you think of an ocean, um, and the diversity in that ecosystem, it's the same as it, the gut. Your gut is the same. You want as much diversity as possible because every bacteria does something different. Some support the different organs, some support decreasing the amount of yeast in the gut, decreasing the amount of pathogenic bacteria in the gut. So by changing it around, you're just creating more resilience. I think that's, that's the key.

So what different types of probiotics are out there that we can feed our dogs and cats?

So we have all different lactobacillus and bifidobacterium in all different strains. They're derived from all kinds of different things, uh, but so we have like 14 different strains derived from, from your basic sort of basic areas of probiotic. And then we have, uh, a soil-based probiotic, which actually is bacteria from soil, from like an organic ancient soil. And then we have species-specific bacteria. So we have bacteria that comes from the healthy, that we've isolated and produced from the healthy feces of a dog. And then we have, um, uh, probiotics that come from, from, uh, a wild pack of wolves, from the feces of wolves. And then we have probiotics from healthy cats, from, from the feces of healthy cats and horses. So we've, we also have very, we have species-specific, which is also quite unique because, yeah, like you're downplaying it right now, it's a big deal because it's, you have that, but it's actually the world's first, uh, species-specific probiotics for these different species.

Yeah. So, um, that, that came from me digging in a little more when it comes to, uh, ancestor stuff, right? Ancestry stuff. You know, you've heard me talk lots and lots about, why do wolves live longer, healthier lives? Why did our dogs 60 years ago live 30% more than they're doing now? Like, what are we doing? What are we doing? And also, it came from this place where have we really tested what we know that the strains that we use for humans, we know they work on animals. I mean, that's all I ever used at my vet hospitals, right? So, we know that, like, empirically, but there hadn't been a lot of, when we came out with our, with our PhytoFlora, the canine species one, there hadn't been research done on, do they actually stay viable in the acidity of a, of a, you know, the bile acids and stuff of a, of a canine or a feline? Because it's very different than a cow, it's very different than a person. So we started doing those studies on it. It would make sense to us to do studies on, you know, bacteria from the feces of, of these animals. So we did that and, you know, isolated specific strains from, from the feces and have very strong criteria of what they did. And when I talked about immune modulation, yeah, I am downplaying it because half the stuff we see in in veterinary medicine is autoimmune diseases, the same with people. So when something has an autoimmune disease, that means that the immune system spikes too high, it goes out of control, and it starts to overactivate. And that's with all the allergies and different things. So your animal goes on an immune-suppressive drug, which is really hard on the, on the, on the liver, and it's, some, some of them are really hard on the kidneys. But it, it also keeps them susceptible to viruses, right? Because their immune system is in the tank. So then they have to go on antibiotics often with it because their immune system is vulnerable because they, their immune system is suppressed. So then you're using antibiotics and you're killing any good bacteria that's in the gut. It's a really, really bad vicious cycle. So when I started seeing that that the, the, the fecal probiotics, the probiotics made from feces of this, of that species, started, we started doing the research on the immune modulation piece and found that it helped to modulate the immune system. So if the immune system started to go too high, it brought it down. If it started going too low from, you know, then worrying about viruses and bacteria, it brings it up. So lots of super cool stuff with the specific. And, yeah, you know, the wolf one is making huge strides on the gut-brain axis, you know, of helping anxious dogs, helping fear-aggressive dogs, helping dogs with, you know, just anxiety in, in general.

I think a lot of, uh, pet parents sometimes are confused when we talk about, uh, canine-specific probiotics because, when you buy a probiotic for a dog, of course, it says on there that it is for a dog. So it's like dog-specific, right? But there is actually a real difference between, if you go to a regular pet store and you see a probiotic for dogs, the strains in that probiotic may not actually be dog-specific, even if it says on the bottle that it's for dogs. There might be human strains, there might be cow strains. So Adored Beast was the first one to actually bring a product to market that had the beneficial bacteria that would be in a healthy dog's gut or poop.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and how you would differentiate that if you want to purchase it, it says, it says species-specific. So, you know, there's a lot of, um, you know, canine-specific, right? Meaning, you know, they've, they've, you know, looked at different things that might, that might be supportive, or they're using strains that they know are, um, compatible with canines and stuff. But the species-specific is a very different word. And that should only be on a container that has probiotics in it that have been made, like, isolated and then made from the feces of that specific species.

And when it comes to probiotics and type of different probiotics we can feed to our pets, uh, we can, you mentioned you can, we can feed soil-based, we can feed species-specific, and basically rotate through the different supplements that, um, we can purchase. But apart from that, also, there's lots of natural sources of probiotics that we can also feed to diversify the gut microbiome as well. Like, for example, um, raw milk, kefir, would be one, or fermented vegetables, or, um, tripe, even raw tripe is, the one that's not bleached, the green tripe.

Are there any other ones that you say that you like to include into your own dog's diet?

There are all different kinds of ways of getting friendly bacteria into your animals' gut. And fermented goat milk, fermented foods, fermented vegetables are all amazing. And I think the reason that they're so amazing is because when, if they were eating a really natural prey diet, they would be eating the gut of their prey. And in that gut of their prey, the food is, you know, most of them are, are herbivores that they're, that they're ingesting. So they would be digested fermented vegetables and grasses and berries and things like that in their gut. So it's, it's very, very beneficial for animals to have that. You know, there's, there's also, it's great for them to get dirty. You know, they can get beneficial bacteria when they're rolling around in healthy dirt, or, you know, playing in a manure, a manure pile where, you know, we know that, you know, that particular manure is, is good manure, doesn't have a lot of chemicals and things like that in it. There's, there's lots of different ways for them to get friendly bacteria.

I prefer Milka not to be rolling in manure, but also we don't freak out when she does. So don't. What I prefer Milka not to, uh, roll in, uh, manure. Manure. Well, not dog manure, like, not dog or anything to do with people or anything, but like, my, my, my dogs have always eaten horse poo. Yeah. Always. And when I talked about my mom and growing up on the rescue and things like that, and these dogs living till they were like 18 and, you know, really living long, healthy lives, they all ate horse manure. They all ate, they all ate horse manure. Always chasing them away like telling them not to eat it, but they always did. So, so if they eat herbivore manure, like, you know, um, cow, sheep, horse, it's, it's, it's actually pretty beneficial. I know it's, it's so, it's so funny because, like, um, right now we're in Germany, and we go up to, like, a sheep field, we get to walk along, um, an amazing pasture land, and they let the sheep free roam. And, you know, they eat the grass, they poop, but Milka eats it. And I'm like, "Please stop eating it. It looks so gross." But I, I know that it's healthy for her. But it's just such a weird, visual.

Takes time to. Yeah, it can be. It can be, especially if you're not used to it or you're growing up in the, in a city, right? Like, yeah. Stuff for me, it's, I don't even think twice about it now because I've seen it for so. And the other thing too, and I know this sounds crazy, but we used our own manure on our farm, right? When I was growing up, so we used our own cow and horse manure on our farm. And, you know, it gets dug into the soil and stuff, but there's still some of it there. And, you know, you're ripping out carrots out of the ground and just banging them on your, on your lap and then eating them. You know, if we think for one second, we're not eating some of that, we're, you know, we're getting ourselves. Yeah. So, but that was like the best way to eat them, the most beneficial way of eating them, is not to wash them, you know, in eating all of those microbes that are that are associated with it.

So let's say, uh, a pet parent is looking for a probiotic supplement for their dog, cat, or horse. Um, what should pet parents look out for when they are purchasing a pre- and probiotic supplement?

You know, colony-forming units, making sure that there's, there's lots of colony-forming units, so at least, at least 10 billion, depending, depending on the, on the, but your basic ones should be more than 10 billion. And, and strains, like, you want to have, you know, at least, at least eight, you know, and more strains, uh, that would be, you know, a big one. But a big one for me is, uh, what it's mixed with, you know, is a ton of silicon dioxide in it, you know, to, to fluff it up and make it look like it's super-sized, like in a bigger bottle. Um, that wouldn't be something that I would recommend. Um, or, you know, a lot of, a lot of the prebiotics, I wouldn't want to feed my dog or my cat or my horse a lot of fructose or a lot of inulin or a lot of the, the, you know, the, the basic, uh, prebiotics. So for me, it's always been important to have a functional prebiotic. So look for things that, you know, have, um, you know, more, more beneficial and would be something that an animal would eat. So when we use Larch, that was interesting because when I was at my, my vet hospital and I was putting together pro-, pre- and probiotics, like making them at our clinic, um, I was always thinking, like, what would they be, what would a prebiotic be? I mean, other than fermented vegetables and stuff, what, what else? Like, what can I get my hands on to use as a prebiotic when I mix them with probiotics? And, so I just started researching one night, kind of, one thing that's in nature that everything eats, right? Like, like, like what are the prey animals eating? Meaning, like, if my, that wolf or that coyote or even a dog is going to prey on a squirrel, or it's going to prey on a rabbit, or it's going to, you know, they're going to take down a deer or whatever, depending on where they live, beavers, squirrels, birds, pheasants, like, you name it. Is there a common theme of something that they all ingested? And it was, and it was bark. Tree bark. So, it produces a lot of prebiotic effect. So we use something called Larch. And Larch is, that's one thing that we use. It's a, it's a, it's a prebiotic made from the bark of a tree, of the Larch tree. And it's got all kinds of cool things. It's got, you know, immune-modulating. It's been, it's been researched for, um, you know, slowing down the metastasis of tumors, all, all kinds of different things. So I think pet parents should be looking for functional prebiotics. So something that an animal would eat, something that has other value besides just sugar.

And, yeah, this is such a good point because a lot, a lot of probiotics that are out there for pets, first of all, a lot of them don't have any prebiotic inside, which is a big red flag because we've learned today that, uh, prebiotics are so important for the probiotics to actually survive and be effective. But then also, the, a lot of the companies that do use a prebiotic, they'll use a form of sugar. And we all know that it's probably not a good idea to feed our dogs sugar, especially when we're addressing things like allergies or yeast.

It does help the probiotics convert sugar, right? Sugar, sugar does help it convert. But why, you know, if I can choose something that has a benefit, exactly. Over that.

What makes me excited too, is like, again, how does that, how do they play together? You know, like, how does that prebiotic play with that probiotic? Does it play really well so that it produces all kinds of phenomenal postbiotic effects, or does it just play well enough that it makes those probiotics survive?

Right. Be viable, or does it boost it up exponentially so that the, the postbiotic beneficial effects are even much more, um, efficient and, and profoundly important in your animal's health?

Yeah. Yeah. And then another thing mentioned is that, um, regarding the, the big tubs, like, a lot of companies will use filler ingredients that will make the product look bigger. But that also means that you're going to have to put more powder into your pet's food. And it's actually something that, um, we get a lot of questions, or some of our customers are concerned about this sometimes when they see the Adored Beast tub, and it's like, so small. But like, also, you only use like a quarter of a teaspoon. So one small tub lasts us like six months, almost, because you don't use any filler ingredients. So I think that's also important for pet parents to realize or think about, like, "Okay, what is in the product that I'm buying? Am I, and how much am I feeding? Am I feeding? Do I have to feed a teaspoon of a probiotic because it includes like mostly a filler ingredient such as maltodextrin?"

So, yeah, I mean, I think, I think what they have to be aware of is how many, so when I produce and formulate, I'm always thinking of what's best for that animal, not what's, because it's not easy to, it is not easy to formulate with no fillers. It's really, really, really difficult and takes forever to do. But I know with my animals, they get so excited to eat. It's like, I don't want to feed them raw food that they can smell the meat and the veggies and the bone broth and all that stuff, but then they put their mouth on it and the majority of, as a supplement, right? Like, it's, I just, I just, I just didn't, I've never done that. I've never subscribed to that. So when, if you take a scoop of something, usually a scoop is about, you know, if it comes with a scoop, those scoops are usually about a tablespoon, um, or if it says, you know, "feed one full teaspoon" or "feed two full teaspoons," in that, in this scoop or in this teaspoon is X amount of colony-forming units. That's where you need to look at it. So we might, we might recommend a, you know, a quarter teaspoon, a sixteenth of a teaspoon, a small amount that delivers 30 billion colony-forming units, whereas a whole tablespoon only delivering eight billion, right? Or eight million, even in some cases. So really, you're giving them predominantly fillers and not, you know, not the, the, not a, not a beneficial amount or as a beneficial amount of actual probiotics.

Yeah. And also, like, it doesn't sound like a lot, but a tablespoon of a supplement into food, it's a lot, especially for some dogs. Like, it is a lot. And one of the other things that you've mentioned was to, uh, to look out for the pre- and probiotic supplement to have at least eight strains, which actually is another big thing with a lot of the veterinary-prescribed probiotic supplements. And the number one veterinary-prescribed probiotic only has one single strain. So can you talk a little bit more about that, and why is it a problem to, to introduce a one-single-strain probiotic, especially in situations such as after an antibiotic treatment or something like that? I mean, it is amazing that veterinarians nowadays, uh, would prescribe a probiotic alongside an antibiotic. But what is the problem with then using a probiotic that only has one strain?

I think what, when they first came out with that probiotic, like Purina, um, I think they were focused on what causes diarrhea from antibiotics, right? So they were looking at the, you know, putting, they put in one strain because back then it was probably the only strain that was even researched, uh, to help prevent diarrhea, right? Slow down diarrhea. So the, the problem is that, you know, you, you feed an antibiotic, it destroys all the friendly bacteria, but then you're just replanting it with one species. Think about a wildflower garden, and somebody comes in and and takes a rototiller and plows up your wildflower garden, and then you're like, "Oh, dear. Oh, well, we had to do it because it was getting, you know, overcome by a weed, whatever." So think of your gut being exactly the same way. The gut is being overpowered, or the body is being overpowered by Coccidia, or overpowered by, you know, some kind of pathogenic bacteria, E. coli, Salmonella, whatever. The, the dog, or the dog has a Staphylococcus infection on their skin, and so the vet gives them an antibiotic. So if you have this wildflower garden, think of that as your gut, or the gut, and you're like, "Okay, there's all, there's these weeds going in there, these weeds are bad. We're going to plow up this whole garden, right? We're not just going to go in and selectively pull out these weeds," which is what should happen, or what should really happen is they should plant a cover crop that competes with that weed, right? But we don't. We go in, we announce, like, destroy the flower garden, the wildflower garden, and then we just plant sunflower seeds and we expect a wildflower garden. That's what's happening. We're not going to get a wildflower garden. We're not going to get that, um, diverse, all different kinds of plants and things like that that, that, that help the soil and feed the bees and all of that. We're going to get a bunch of what? We're going to get a bunch of sunflower seeds. And that's, that is what happens when you plant one bacteria. That bacteria becomes the predominant bacteria in the gut and doesn't give the diversity, which is a problem because we've also learned today that the more diverse your dog's gut flora is, the more healthy your dog is. So if your dog only has one strain or a couple of strains of pro-, like beneficial bacteria, that's when, like, secondary infections and stuff like that can happen.

After? Yeah. Or it's when other things start to, you know, the dog becomes more lethargic, or they have other GI issues, or they have start getting allergies, or they start doing because the body doesn't have that education through, through, through the different kinds of of bacteria. Um, the only, the only place that we don't have that is in our, in our wolf strain, and that's because we chose to use only a few of the isolated strains. But I'm not worried about that because I don't tell people to just stay on that, right? It's, it's, it's like an addition. So if you're using Gut Soothe, or you're using PhytoFlora, or you're using, um, I mean, PhytoFlora has four, 16 different strains in it, or if you're using, you know, Soil and Sea, or you're using our other probiotics, you're getting all of this diverse thing. And then if you use for, you know, two months, you're using the, the, um, the wolf strain, but you haven't given antibiotics, then all you're doing is adding that strain on top of it, right? Putting in another diverse, very diverse strain. I think I've calculated, we, we have it in our store, we actually sell it as a combo, Gut of Steel. Yeah, we call it the Gut of Steel because it has so many different strains of bacteria, 22, I think, in total. That would be 22 plus three of the prebiotics. It's incredible.

Yeah. Yeah. There's all kinds of different, yeah. You can, you can, you know, you can give the whole shebang until the, until the gut is like, you know, "I gotta steel." Exactly. Um, and then you can start rotating them after that, right? So that, so that you're just sort of reintroducing them all the time. But the other thing that pre- and probiotics and postbiotics do that's very important, that some has scientific evidence supporting it and some doesn't, um, ours do. So where it, um, maintains the permeability, right? It, it supports the, it supports the permeability in the junction of the gut. So if the permeability is fractured, right? So if, if the gut's ability to, to not allow toxins to go in, infiltrate into the bloodstream, if that is, um, traumatized in any way, you want to, you want to, that's where all kinds of things go sideways. That's, that's, that's like a recipe for disaster. They don't get the proper nutrition, the body goes into a state of alert, autoimmune disease starts to happen, chronic inflammation, the list goes on and on. So you want to make sure that the probiotics that you use have supportive studies to say that it maintains the permeability of the gut. Another biggie.

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We're postbiotics. I think it's, it's so incredible because there's a lot of research coming out around, uh, postbiotics, and now we are seeing this word being used on packaging and marketing. So what exactly are postbiotics? You've mentioned it already, but just to reiterate, um, exactly what is it?

It is, it is the, the postbiotic is, is the conversion and the benefit that the pre- and probiotics have together, right? It's what pre- and probiotics produce. Okay. So postbiotics, like I said, it, it is the, it is like the short-chain fatty acids. It's the, it is what it is the molecule and the production of everything that creates the benefit of of pre- and probiotics. I did a, I did a course on postbiotics, oh my gosh, like nine years ago from, was an online course from Japan. And it was so fascinating, but no one was even talking about it back then. And I, I'm glad people are talking about it now because I think people are going to have to be.

more aware of you know what they're using as a Prebiotic. you know, they're they're going to be more educated. like, oh, okay, that's interesting. you know, this is what this pre and probiotic do together. have to be careful though, because again, you know, we're isolating what we feel is beneficial, right? and we're we're saying, okay, but it's only what we can test for. and and that's that's like, I'm I'm thrilled that that gut health is is, you know, in our face all the time because I think it's really important. I I do. but I'm also a little worried that we're going to go down a slippery slope if we try and um control it too much. you know, because what we see like on a fecal test, let's say, like we're going to do a we're going to do a poop test. M, we're seeing what's happening in that moment. it's a snapshot, right? 12 hours later, six hours later, even less, that poop is going to be different than it was then.

so when we're looking at postbiotics, I think of it sort of the same way. is that we can I I talk about I I talk about that with CBD. I talk about that with phytoplankton. is our is our ability and and mushrooms, really huge, big time with mushrooms. like we're looking at polyphenols, trines, polysaccharides, but that's just because that's what we can test for and that's what we know what to test for. it has so much more. like so so so much more. and I feel the same with the gut microbiome. I feel like when people go, oh, we're going to put these postbiotics in, we are isolating the postbiotics based on what we can test for rather than allowing the body to produce what it inherently knows how to produce with the pre and pro. okay? you know, I think it's a good idea. don't get me wrong. I think it's a good idea. I think we just have to be careful. so we've been seeing products, um, supplements pop up on the market lately and they claim that they put a postbiotic inside this product. so we were wondering, is that actually something that can be done or is that like a false marketing claim? no, it is something that can be done. and and for me, you know, we we may do that down the road a little bit. you know, me is I won't ever put anything on in anything because it's a fad or because someone else has told me that's what I need to do. I'm I'm, you know, I'm so science-based and I have to be proving everything and whatever. I'm a bit anal when it comes to that. um, so for me, my concern is that we are forcing then the body to to take something that would inherently produce these on their own. and and do we have the tools to be able to capture all of it and isolate all of it? or are we isolating just what we can measure scientifically now and and adding that? do do you know what I'm saying? yeah, makes sense. basically everything is doable. so you know, when we talked about our cancer project and I was saying like, I'm not a big kind of like is not isolation or fractionization fan, but we had to do that in in this case. and when we isolate strains of probiotics, we do the same thing. but we're isolating them from um, we're isolating them from the feces independent of the prebiotics, right? so we're isolating only bacteria, only the probiotic bacteria. and then we've done some studies with like the wolf and turkey tail and chlorella and and soil in in soil probiotics, right? to see the postbiotic effect of those two working synergistically. and when we see that, it is it is mind-blowing. so I'm still leery of being able to be say, oh yeah, because it's it's the it's the part that's very beneficial, right? it's it's the end result. so if I'm just a little worried of taking what we assume the end result should be and adding that. yeah, yeah, right. rather than all just allowing the body to produce that postbiotic on its own by creating a a Prebiotic that we know plays really, really well with the bacteria that then produces phenomenal postbiotic effects. because what's gonna happen is that people are just going to use maltodextrin, some basic probiotic, and then take a postbiotic and mix that, right? it's kind of like, I don't know, my I was trying to explain this to my sales team and I don't know whether this you can cut this out if you have to. my one sales manager said something like, well, it's sort of like having an orgasm without having sex. oh, right. that threw me off. that was unexpected. it's it's kind of like we're missing the dance, right? we're missing the dance. we don't we don't know what that we aren't 100% sure what that dance is. we can see it under the microscope and we can we have the tools to do it, right? so like I said, I may wind up producing a PO a postbiotic, but I'm not going to do that unless I know that that that postbiotic is all that it could be. I'm not just gonna go, okay, I'm gonna take a postbiotic from inulin and two strains of probiotics, right? because for me, that postbiotic isn't going to be the same as taking a postbiotic from 14 strains or a species specific strain and a functional Prebiotic. yeah, they're gonna they're gonna be different. yeah. and you're you're kind of you're trying to create this without performing this. it's kind of like a it's it's almost like cheating a little bit. like yeah. and and I am concerned about. I'm more for me right now, my research is going into how do I actually get the body to create the most beneficial postbiotic possible? how do I get it? because I feel the body knows what it means needs more than we do. I feel like the microbiome of the gut is so intelligent, so intelligent beyond our intelligence. we don't even have the tools yet in science to really, really, really figure it out, right? so why not for me for me, I feel like I'm I would be playing with something that still isn't for me. um, the most beneficial way to get the postbiotic, the most beneficial way from for you for me to get the best postbiotic effect possible is to create phenomenal pre- and probiotics. and then the body kind of does the magic and chooses what postbiotic is the most beneficial. not even then, but every moment, every minute, every time it ingests some other different food, every time it it it's changing constantly. because just like you said, like the poop from today is going to be completely different than the poop from tomorrow. so the body knows best what it needs, right? in that moment. yeah, yeah.

so you know, I I I I love all the science and I and I kudos to people that are doing different things and whatever. for me, I'm just more that person that if I can support the body to do what it's supposed to do independently. so that's like saying, okay, this this jar is going to do exactly the same thing for Charlie and Larry. I don't want that jar to do exactly the same thing for Charlie. that's very standardization. and I don't think health is standardized. I just don't. I think I think, you know, as someone that had, you know, seven different vet clinics and worked with thous, you know, over, you know, close to 40,000 animals just in that in that space, every single body's individual. no matter what you want to say, everybody is individual. and I like producing things that I can feel confident will produce the effects individually for every single body that ingests it. and that it will function in the way and the that the body will know what it needs to address rather than forcing something that's been already produced assuming that's what that body needs. yeah, I would far rather. I'm not saying it's not beneficial. I'm not saying it's bad. but for me, I want to fine tune the probiotic and Prebiotic aspect of it so that it can be more individualized in the gut. the gut can individualize it more. it it makes so much sense. and it's so interesting to hear you talk about it because like, you know, the the way that you think about certain things is just so different from anything else that's out there. and and your integrity just always remains unbroken. so so like, you know, just because there's like a new thing out there doesn't mean that you're just going to jump into that and and uh produce it without thoroughly understand uh or researching it. so it's it's it's just so great to you know, get a insight into your thoughts about that. well, and I think everybody has their forte, right? so my I would say that my forte is trying to find ways, almost I I don't want to say less is more, but I want to find ways. like when I when we did when we isolated the wolf strain, my my dream for that was that it was going that fingerprint of something wild and unsuppressed and without the cancer element that that dogs are having, without the autoimmune element, without the anxiety element, without that that fingerprint, it's literally called the fingerprint of the bacteria would somehow really, really resonate with the gut brain axis, right? would would hone in and resonate with that. because they are so stable, they're they're they're so happy and adjusted and and like I said, they, you know, they have this incredible community and they're just so freaking cool. I can't even tell you. and I I thought, you know, I wish what I wish for with this is yes, all the physical stuff too, but I really was hopeful that it could potentially do something with them emotionally. sort of like reignite that that stability, reignite that resilience, reignite that ability to to settle in and, you know, not be wild. but because really when you look at a wolf and you look at a dog and you look, they're so much more educated. they're so they're so much more adapted and and and like I said, and resilient. and they know how to be socially. I feel like most dogs don't even know what they're supposed to do socially, right? we're telling them what they're supposed to do. so my goal was that I didn't know it was going to work and I didn't know. I just had hopes for it, right? but said anything, I never I couldn't say anything, right? because I didn't I couldn't prove it with science. I could all kinds of other stuff that it had immune modulation and had all of these phenomenal postbiotic effects. I could prove that. but scientifically I wasn't able to prove or or say when back then when we when we launched it, that it would have a more of an affinity. I was hoping that it would have an affinity with the gut brain. and you wouldn't believe how many people have been emailing us and saying, my dog is a completely different dog. I've had university contact me and say, you know, we work with a veterinary psychiatrist. saying we work with um, like specialize in behavior and psychi like psychiatric stuff. we they work with a behaviorist and she's getting phenomenal results with using this probiotic. amazing. so yeah, so that's that's where I want to hone in on. I don't want to hone in on, oh, well, postbiotics is a new thing. well, it's not a new thing. I've been researching with postbiotics for a decade, right? yeah. and it's just not something that I feel is as it is incred it is it is the ultimate of importance. but it's the ultimate importance of how it does it itself in the gut. yeah, yeah.

amazing. so so a quick fire question uh I've got for you now. if someone who's listening right now, if they have not yet uh tried out pre probiotic supplements for their pets and they're inspired and want to now go and start with a pre probiotic for their dog, cat or horse. uh what would you recommend where they start? uh all right. so any dog or cat that have has had sort of gas problems, like long-term gastric problems, I would immediately start with gutso. that's that's that would be my go-to. if it's a healthy puppy, a healthy kitten, healthy dog, healthy cat, I would start with h phytos Flora for the dog because that's got 16 strains. that gives you the most strains en large. and for cats, I would start with Felix Flora because it's got the feline, the feline strains in it, as well as the 14 strains. so that's that's where I would start and see how it feels. see if you can see a difference. I always tell pet parents if they start anything new, whether it's diet, supplements, keep a journal. you know, at my vet hospital, every new patient got a journal to go home with. and um, yeah, because like you said, you're going to notice things that maybe you wouldn't even know or you might not notice things that are changing. yeah, it's always a good uh thing to like write a journal and and just write about like how your dog is or what you're seeing because you see your pet every day. you might not notice the small changes, but then like you look at the journal entry like a month ago and you're like, oh yeah, that and and that was wrong. I I totally forgot about that. so yeah. and and also before and after picture is always great. yeah. you know, that happened all the time. I know this wasn't a fast question or fast answer, but you know, I would have people come in to my clinic and I would take really detailed notes, right? and would go through all their files from all their vets and blah blah blah. take very detailed notes, very detailed notes, like where do they sleep, what do they like when the postman comes, blah blah blah, like everything, like how much water do they drink, how do they stand when they drink their water, do they lie down when they eat their food, like everything. and people would come in back in a month and they'd be like, oh yeah, well, you know, the the diarrhea is subsided or he's not he's less itchy or whatever. and I'd be like, oh yeah, um, anything else? no, I don't think so. and then I would start asking them questions from before, like, is still doing this? oh, my gosh, he's not doing that anymore. oh, is he starting to sleep on the bed again? oh, my gosh, yeah, he's sleeping on the bed again. like because his arthritis was too it was for him to jump on the bed, you know, so that would be like he used to sleep on the bed, he doesn't sleep on the bed anymore because of his arthritis. and then, you know, two months later, I'm retaking, you know, I'm doing a like a like a recheck or something on them. and oh yeah, he's able to walk on his things. he's not panting as much. and like like that's it. yeah, that's it. is he sleep where is he sleeping? oh, my God, he's sleeping on the bed again. oh, my God, that's so amazing. you know, like you just don't think about it. you're busy and yeah, yeah. and also sometimes when things go back to normal, you you forgot that they were ever different. yeah, like it's normal for the dogs to sleep on the of course. so yeah. or even some things like when Henry, when my dog was sick, he's a real barker, right? like he barks and bar, like he just barks, barks to get me to give him treats, barks when like barks and um, when he was sick, he wasn't barking very much. and um, yesterday, no, this morning, the the peater guy came in and he just lost his mind, right? he can't think. he so got such a loud bark. and I just was like, oh, he's barking again. thank God. thank God he's barking again, you know? so even the irritating things that irritate you, if your dog isn't feeling well, it might not do that. or your cat, even, you know, your cat gets sick and it stops scratching the furniture because it's just it's hiding in the closet, right? or it's it's like sleeping all the time or whatever. and then all of a sudden it starts scratching the furniture again. yeah, you don't want it to scratch the furniture, but you're happy that it's feeling well enough to scratch the furniture. yeah, I know it's funny. we'll link to you as well as adored Beast and the products that you've mentioned in the show notes for anyone who wants to check them out. well, thank you so so much, Julie, for taking the time with us today to talk about the amazing benefits of pre and probiotics for pets. we've learned so much and we're excited to share this with our audience. yeah, oh, well, thank you. it's an interest very interesting topic and it will get more interesting and more interesting as it evolves for sure. thank you so much for tuning into today's episode. if you like this show and you like what we do here and you want to support us, the free and simple way to do just that is by hitting the subscribe button. Larry and I spent countless hours creating this podcast and seeing our community grow really means the world to us and enables us to keep creating awesome content just like this. [Music] [Applause]