CONTACT! Encounters With Entities In Extended State DMT Studies

Are we alone in the cosmos? I see DMT as a technology, a technology with many functions. I've been shown every Federation, every spacecraft, every type of alien, and of course, we are aliens too. Galactic citizenship is a noble ambition, but interdimensional citizenship is close at hand. Holy [ __ ] I never thought of it like that, but yes, the amount of entities, the variety, from tiny little eles to ginormous—and you're trying to understand how can they fit on this tiny ship, right? It was an Intergalactic Noah's Arc. What you like the most democratic alien communication tool that you could imagine—that we are only just beginning to learn.

It's a dream, really, for anyone who wants to explore DMT in the most beautiful and optimal setting that you can imagine. You don't need to be ill, you don't need to be sitting on billions of dollars.

Fractal crysanthemum of sacred geometry that just kind of pours in, and there's this almost like warm buzzing feeling as you're kind of traveling. I've been there. I became a Triceratops once. It was amazing. I mean, this is hyperhumanism as opposed to transhumanism, which is why I keep talking about this idea that we don't know what we are [Music] yet.

Is this default World reality the only true reality, or is there other dimensional realities that have sentient beings that have an existence, perhaps not carrying flesh? You can't bump into them with your hands, but DMT might allow you to make contact with this sentient other. And then, if there is a sentient other, what are the aggregations, what are the differentiations? Who are these sentient others, and what is the overarching structure of the cosmos that holds the sentient others and us, as we know ourselves in this skin-encapsulated self?

I brought on Dr. Andrew Gallamore, who's been researching what happens when you go into extended DMT states with patient zero, Carl Hayden Smith, an experienced psychonaut, to explore these topics: what is going on in the DMT Realms, and what is possible on the frontiers of this exploration. This podcast is beyond fascinating. I can't wait to share it with Dr. Andrew Gallamore and Carl Hayden Smith.

Dr. Andrew Gallamore, Carl, it's great to see you guys.

Likewise.

Likewise indeed. So we have a lot of really interesting things to talk about because you guys are deep into the study and experience of extended-state DMT. Now, for those of you who are not aware of what DMT is, let's just give the shortest version of what DMT is for anybody who may not have followed me for the last 25 years when I've been talking about DMT and are just new to this: what is DMT?

Well, shall I start, Carl?

Uh, I think I think that's correct. Yeah, you—well, in one sentence, DMT is arguably the world's most efficient um reality channel switch. It's the most common naturally occurring psychedelic um that has this astonishing, remarkable, inexplicable ability to obliterate the normal waking world and replace it almost instantaneously with one that is altogether stranger, in many ways uh, altogether more complex, inordinately complex, um often hyper-technological, seemingly hyper-advanced, and most importantly, and for many people most significantly, populated—and populated not by other friendly humans uh, but creatures entirely not of this world that also appear to be highly advanced, um extremely intelligent, um uh and holy other. Um, how does that do? Feels pretty good to me.

Now, Carl, let's you and I—let's let's you and I take a moment to just drop into a short synopsis of the experience of DMT, and right now I want to make a short distinction that we're talking mostly in this conversation about N,N-DMT, which has been nicknamed The Spirit Molecule, which as opposed to 5-MeO-DMT, which is also known as Bufo, which has been called the god molecule. And there's an experiential—a significant experiential difference and also neurobiological difference, but that's not actually where we're going with this conversation. We're going to focus on N,N-DMT, which is the primary active ingredient in Ayahuasca, as normally brewed with the chacruna leaf providing the N,N-DMT, although sometimes there's some slight mixture of 5-MeO-DMT depending on the brew and the leaves that are used. Um, also shows up in different snuffs and also anybody who's smoking kind of DMT uh vaporized, as from Mimosa or whoever else it's synthesized. So this is like the classic original DMT, and we're not talking about Bufo in this conversation, although who knows where we'll end up going. But if you want to go first, Carl, and talk about just from an experiential standpoint, you know, what it's like when you get that first flood of DMT, and then we're going to talk about the experiential differences about the onset and the journey of extended-state DMT, which is like an Ayahuasca experience, so they'll—minus all of the intelligence and spirit that comes with Grandmother Ayahuasca—it's just the pure—the pure compound itself. But let's just talk about that from an experiential standpoint real quick to give people a flavor of of what we've experienced there.

Yeah, sure. So I've been doing—I've been very, very honored to do eight years now at Imperial College London as a participant, and I've gone through all the different phases of the of the DMT trials there. So the first one was DMT with with just measuring EEG um intravenously uh administered, which is always interesting, as you pointed out, the route of administration is so important. Um, if we compare Ayahuasca with injected pure N,N-DMT, uh as Andrew mentioned to me, it's about 20% active—the DMT in Ayahuasca in the in the brew. So you're taking 100% DMT when you have it intravenously given to you uh in one of these trials. Um, and yeah, it's uh—on top of the fact that I'm then getting my brain scanned and being inside a scanner—I think the the the experience is, as Andrew says, it's extremely other. It's extremely, you know, like you're plugging into the into the Matrix. You're plugging into this holographic reality where there are galore, depending on how lucky you are and the dose that you've received, but there seems to be this this other parallel world that you're able to access, and uh, yeah, and depending on whether you're having any extra accoutrements like having an fMRI scanner involved, then you'll ramp up the intensity. So when I first had my my first scan—having my brain scanned at the same time as being injected with DMT—it was almost like the cosmic joke was given up. So I immediately—the the amount of entities that arrived on mass, all very concerned for me, cuz they were like—they almost showed me the sort of the 5-MeO flash. They were like, "You're immortal, but you're in a human form right now. You're not scheduled. What's going on?" And I had to spend the entire time trying to calm down the entities, explaining to them, "I'm actually—I'm actually being studied over on this side of the equation. I know you're the guys that normally do the scanning," um, but they they were were just like, "Yeah, you're you're immortal. Don't die right now. Uh, this is not convenient."

Um, what's super interesting is two weeks later I had to go back in uh and have the same procedure, and it's almost like the boy crying wolf. So because I had to go back in two weeks later and have exactly the same dose, exactly the same situation, I was in the same landscape, the same hyperreal sort of holographic landscape, but no entities came, as if to say there is some sort of intelligence there, and there—they're not going to come back and warn me again again if I'm stupid enough to go back in and do the same thing again. So it—there is something there that's continuous, that is this intelligence that, you know, I think both Andrew and I are very much on the fence as to whether these entities are other—other—other than our own imagination, our own archetypes, our own higher selves. Um, but either way, I think we're winning, right? Either way, if it is just our own imagination, then that's also a win. If it's not our imagination and we are in fact accessing other realms, then we have to worry about things like colonization and making sure that we don't end up outstaying our welcome. And we can talk a lot more about what happens when you go back in every—every—every few weeks to have such an extended stay. You're opening up so much—that's such fertile ground to talk about. Uh, but I just want to give people, you know, I've done several hundred DMT experiences—had several hundred DMT experiences—from insufflated in the in the form of Yopo to Vilca to and then also smoked, you know, countless ceremonies of smoked DMT from uh harvested from Mimosa to, you know, some 40-some-odd Ayahuasca journeys. So I've had an immense amount of experience with DMT. So to just give people a sense of what N,N-DMT is like, it starts to open with this kind of fractal crysanthemum of sacred geometry that just kind of pours in, and there's this almost like warm buzzing feeling as you're kind of traveling to what very much feels like an interdimensional reality. And for me, I am not on the fence at all as to whether we are actually traveling someplace separate, into a different dimensional reality. I'm not on the fence at all, nor am I on the fence at all that these entities that appear are entirely other. They have agency. We have communication that is far beyond the deepest reaches of my imagination, and the wisdom that's able to be provided, whether it's a known entity like Yeshua, who I've encountered on DMT, or whether it's some foreign entity like a mantis being that's coming in and doing some very precise psychic surgery on me, then in the in the conversational kind of cosmos that we're in. But so it feels like—first, first the fractals and the geometry, and then when you're blessed—it feels like a blessing when I'm blessed—also because of the way that the the smoke comes in—by the time you're actually land—especially if you're smoking it—by the time you land in the place where you can actually be in this conversational cosmos with the other, often times you're getting pulled right back out. So I've had many experiences where I'm like right at the threshold where if I felt like I had a little more rocket fuel, I could push through and actually be sitting at this Council of star elders, but then I just don't have the—I don't have the rocket fuel to actually get me there. So that's what makes me incredibly interested to go join you guys and be, you know, be one of the patients in the new programs that you guys are working with to see what happens. Now, of course, with Ayahuasca, that is a far more extended-state experience, and often times you will enter this high-DMT threshold place, but it's not a guarantee because of our own, you know, chemistry, neurobiology, all of the things that you know super well, Dr. Gallamore, that depending on how the Ayahuasca vine itself actually reduces the inhibition, you know, that we have to actually—the MAOI or whatever the actual technical—I don't think it's actually MAOI, but actually prevent the breakdown of DMT, so it allows the DMT to be active. However that ends up working, depending on what you ate that day or what your mindset is in, sometimes you may have very little vision, and sometimes just a lot of purgative qualities. Sometimes it may feel like the top of your head just got peeled off and you're on the like the most powerful DMT trip of your life. And so there's some real inconsistency in the Ayahuasca experience where I've talked to many people who've sat for a session of three, four journeys, never saw a thing, and I don't imagine that that's the case with the intravenous administration of DMT. I'm imagining that it's just one of these things that it just doesn't miss—like people are going to have an experience, and that experience is going to be visual. Is that—would that be a true statement to say when you're when you're kind of talking about these extended-state DMT experiences?

Um, yeah. I mean, that was the the original idea behind DMTx. Um, before I say that, I will just say that actually, although Carl said I'm on the fence, I actually now lean heavily more in your direction—or—in that um, from the the two decades that I've been studying DMT uh and attempting using kind of the standard paradigm of Neuroscience to explain um and drawing in other people's explanations for the DMT state and for the entities, you know, archetypes bubbling up from the collective unconscious and all this kind of stuff—I've tried and failed to make sense of DMT using that. So now what's left for me is personally the the undeniable conclusion that the only explanation that makes sense is that we are in fact dealing with some kind of—I—I call an intelligent agent. Uh, I wouldn't call it a spirit or a God or an alien or anything like that. I don't know the nature of it, but I certainly strongly lean in the direction now that we are dealing with an intelligence that we need to take um seriously. So there's that. Um, so getting on to—and—and this is—and this is—I just want to share this—this is, you know, on the new—on the new Noctics page, you have an unbelievable quote, and so I just want to—I just want to reference this, which actually points to the fact that you're not really on the fence, and my suspicions are that Carl's not really on the fence either. However, you guys are being good scientists, and I do the same thing. I also say like, "Look, even if I'm just making this up, is it—is it helpful? Is it beneficial? Does it grow corn?" as my friend Chris Williamson says, like, "Is this something that's useful for your life?" And if so, either way, it's still a beautiful medicinal process. So I'm with you guys, and I also take that kind of scientific skepticism and just—and honoring that voice, but also deep on my inside I know it's not true. I know these—I know the places that I'm going and the things that I'm encountering are beyond what I could imagine. But your quote—and I just want to share this quote—"Galactic citizenship is a noble ambition, but interdimensional citizenship is close at hand. Holy [ __ ]" I never thought of it like that, but yes, indeed.

Right.

Right, exactly. I mean, we spend all of our energy firing rockets into, you know, intermediate orbits around the nearest stellar object or whatever things like this, expecting that our expansion or our trajectory as a species into contact with other species is going to take that form of nuts and bolts spacecraft being fired into the starry heavens. But um, I think DMT is the most reliable uh tool that you—that we have that almost guarantees—almost guarantees an audience with beings that are far more advanced, probably than anything that could exist in this universe. Uh, and anyone has access to this. It's like the most democratic um alien communication tool that you could imagine. You don't need—you don't need to be Elon Musk. You don't need to be sitting on billions of dollars. Um, you just need a few hours in the kitchen and a glass pipe. I mean, that's basically it. Uh, anyone can produce DMT. You know, of course, it's illegal in many jurisdictions, so I can't recommend doing that, but um, it is, you know, it's ubiquitous in nature. It's—it's like—it's like this gift that's been given to everyone. All we have to do is seek it out. Um, uh, it's not beyond anyone's reach if they put in the effort to find it. So it's—it's a wonderful thing in that—and also—and also even—even on the simpler—on even on the simpler path, there's, you know, relatively good research, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, that if you're entering into an extended-state darkness retreat, which just requires the removal of light—like I had undeniably DMT experiences in—in my 6 days isolated in the darkness—undeniable. And there's different theories about how the excess melatonin then converts somehow into additional DMT. I don't know exactly—I don't think anybody's exactly figured that out, but maybe we'll be on the path to figure out that path away from a scientific perspective. But there's also some good research that endogenous DMT is accelerated when you do hyperoxygenation practices like Wim Hof breathing or shamanic breathing or Stanislav Grof's holotropic breathing, and that actually breathing increases DMT, which accounts for a lot of the visions. You know, I've been helping facilitate breathwork for, you know, 6 years now, and fundamentally people are having visionary experiences that are very similar—maybe without the exact fractal geometry—but experiences that are could be more easily explained if you actually understood that you're creating a surplus of endogenous DMT, which has now been kind of shown to exist. So this is ultimately a fully democratized substance. This is a naturally occurring psychedelic, not only in the plants that we—that are brewed in Ayahuasca, but exists within us as well.

Exactly.

Yeah. Uh, well, we're going to get to the darkness retreat a little bit later. I think that's very—it's one particular aspect of DMT that we're particularly interested in—is our own source of DMT, endogenous DMT. We know it's produced in humans. We don't know a lot of how it's regulated or even its function in humans really. Um, so yeah, we can definitely get to that. Um, but back to DMTx. Um, so Carl was saying—um, and you were saying, Aubrey, that about the—there's a few—there's a couple of problems with—I wouldn't say problems. Um, I used to think of them as bugs in DMT. Now I think that they're more part of its—their features. Uh, the main one being that DMT is very short-acting. You know, it's like—it's a few minutes. It's like a a roller coaster ride. Um, you're blasted out into this alternate reality. You look around wide-eyed for a few minutes, astonished, dumbfounded, um don't know what to make of it, and by the time you've kind of calmed down and oriented yourself within the space, you're already being dragged back into the normal waking world. Um, so it's not exactly conducive to being uh to proper exploration, analysis, establishing communication with the beings within the space. Ayahuasca is a solution to that, and as you said, Aubrey, it's—you use this DMT—normally taken orally—as completely inactive. You combine it with um uh this monoamine oxidase inhibitor, MAOI—MAOI, as you said—um, normally from Banisteriopsis caapi, the traditional Ayahuasca vine. Uh, this prevents the DMT uh that you ingest at the same time from being broken down, so it makes its way uh into the brain, and you can have a psychedelic trip that extends over several hours. However, this also has a problem. Um, as Carl said, the levels of DMT that are reached with a typical Ayahuasca trip are less than 20% uh of the levels that would be reached when you um smoke DMT or when you inject DMT. So a normal breakthrough dose of smoked DMT is several times higher than what you would ever achieve with Ayahuasca. So Ayahuasca is generally a much longer, drawn-out, broadly somewhat more kind of gentle experience, although it is accompanied with what many consider to be rather annoying side effects, such as, you know, profuse vomiting—depending on how you—depending on how you look at that—those side effects. I mean, I think one of the reasons to do Ayahuasca is because it's hard and because it's purgative. So there's, you know, mad blessings to the Ayahuasca traditions in the full breadth of the medicine, which isn't excluded into this, but it is very curious. And I will also say that this 20% number is not exactly always 20%. Like certain times I've had certain doses, like the last time I had a full cup from Maestro Alberto of the MSO lineage, and he poured me a full cup of his special home brew—this is—I mean, I couldn't imagine a more 100—100% type of experience—like any—any more—and I don't know if I would still exist—that—I mean, so it can reach that, but often times it doesn't. And often times it doesn't. And this is—it's—it's very erratic. It's unpredictable. And so if I'm, you know, helping to speak to a group of people who are about to do Ayahuasca, it's like you can't have any expectations. You may see nothing. You may feel nothing. You may purge nothing. You may just be kind of peacefully in this kind of warm meditation, or it could be the hardest experience of your life, you know, like you don't know which way it's going to go. So—and that's part of the magic and mystery and and medicine of Ayahuasca. But this is such an exciting way to explore, particularly what you guys are keen on and what you were mentioning, Carl, and I want to get into the entities because this is really, really interesting because there is this common debate: Are we alone? Are we alone in the cosmos? Are we alone in the universe, right? And I think a lot of people are opening their mind to the both physical visitors that may be coming from intergalactically and have some kind of physical—

Form and they appear as lights, or they appear as beings forever, or you know, I think as they opened up unidentified anomalous phenomena, they're opening up the door to interdimensional contact, which to me is beyond a [__] shadow of a doubt because I've experienced it, you know, countless amounts of times. So we're actually looking at two different things, but ultimately, you know, we're exploring the idea: are we alone? Is Consciousness created just from our own brains and our own mind, and are we actually the only sentient species—call it a species, I guess; I don't know if they don't have a body, is it a species?—are we the only, are we the only sentience in the cosmos besides the other animals that we know here on Earth?

And I think these studies are going to start to show, as the University of Virginia has started to show about the continuity of Consciousness. I think as these, these studies are pursued, we're going to start to get a body of evidence that's going to show that, hey y'all, we're not alone in the universe, and that's going to be a profound Revelation that's been isolated formerly to religious beliefs and Angels or potentially new age beliefs in Star beings or psychotic beliefs in, in their direct experiences. But we're going to actually start to have scientific, you know, reports about reliable contact with certain entities, and you know, that's incredibly exciting because it could start to settle some of these fundamental debates about who we are, where we are, and what there is to do in the universe.

Yeah, if I can jump in on that, I think, um, through these medicines I've been certainly gifted a lot of, a lot of sort of intel on, you know, it's an absurdity to think that we are alone. I mean, I've been shown every Federation, every spacecraft, every type of alien, and of course, we are aliens too, and we're very low down in the leagues, I would say. Partly the reason why we're not visited so often, I think, is because we're very much sort of ill-considered in the cosmic game because we're constantly destroying our own ecosystem, and, and through that may, and through that ignorance, maybe that's partly why we've not been harvested, um, so far. You know, that's my, that's my current working hypothesis, that it's only the outliers that come to visit because we're, we're, we're maybe not so intelligent, and maybe it's the melium that's the Intelligence on the, on the planet, but not the humans. So maybe we're protected partly through that ignorance, but I think that, yeah, we are, we're absolutely, um, amongst many alien species, even on planet Earth. Look at this under the sea; we don't even know what's under there, you know, we haven't explored even absolutely all right.

So you said harvested. Now, harvested has a very negative connotation, so are you hypothesizing that there are benevolent entities and also so malevolent entities in this kind of zoos spere of cosmic intelligence? Absolutely. I mean, I think it's a no-brainer that we, I mean, I've, I've, I've experienced the benevolence firsthand, which is why I'm kind of cautious about going too often into, into the DMT Realms. I think 5-MeO-DMT is, is isn't populated in, in the same way. I think that it is pure light; I think it's the top of the pyramid, it's like you as light, and I think you can go there much more often. I think it's, from what we're understanding, is incredible health benefits to do so, but to go, go into these, these Realms, and as Chris found out and others have, have found out from these, from these studies at Imperial, it looks like we're dreaming; it looks like, you know, we're in the dreamlike state when we're on DMT, and we talk about the light body, we talk about the astral realm. So I think we go into these, uh, into these Dimensions where there's tons of aliens, and, and then we, we're part of that. I think that's absolutely the case.

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And the name Saou is also really rad. I asked Matius to Stefano, what is the word in Atlantean for Earth, and he scribbles on his notepad in Atlantean, so he really knows this language, and if you believe that or not, it's up to you, but he said the name was Saou, Sa a Yu. And so we called the company Saou, Sa Yu, because it's a relationship with the beautiful array of Flora that exists on our planet. So we created six different blends that invite you into six different worlds. The first world, of course, is Aradia, the name of our Festival; it's a scent that brings you this feeling of joy and connection in this unique blend called Arcadia. And then there's Valhalla, the smell of Steel and leather, a more masculine scent and the smell of the Earth and wood. And then there's Aeros, which is this delicious smell of both vanilla and spice that invites you into a more erotic State. And then there's Aium, just like the Heavenly fields that bring a sense of peace and calm. And then there's Mage, which was actually channeled by one of our partners as a way to use these unique plants that I've never smelled before as a form of spiritual protection and transportation into different worlds. And lastly, there's Helios, which uses the flower corsac HELOC, which is one of the most coveted and beautiful scents in the world, and when I first smelled it, I was like, oh man, this is the smell of sunlight, if sunlight had a smell, this is it. So we called it Helios and blended it with some other Botanicals. So everything from the beautiful packaging to the way that these oils are harvested and distilled from these plants, we just did it right, every way, all the way up, all the way down. And these are all in my medicine bag wherever I go, and I think you guys are going to love them, so I'm super proud to share our new company sa.earth, sa yu.earth. And if you're interested, you can get 15% off with the code Aubrey and invite yourself into these wild beautiful worlds that I've co-created with my partner Carly, so sa yu.earth, and definitely let me know what you think, cuz I absolutely [__] love these essential oils.

You know, I, I think, uh, I really feel like humans—my personal theory is that humans are the Envy of the whole Cosmos—and I'll give you my, I'll give you my thesis why I think we have the widest range of any species conceivable. Right? We have full physical bodies with full sexual apparatus that are not, not only like psychologically sexual, which I'm sure exists and could be quite wonderful, but I'm quite a fan of the physical old school version that we have available to us. So for one, you know, we have like this full animality and carnality; like we can play basketball, and we can make love, and we can eat all of these varieties of food, and we have such a beautiful planet, and we have the ability, if we har, if we harness it, to reach our own level of Christ Consciousness, as Christ, you know, kind of paved the way, and potentially many Buddhas before him and after him who've also paved the way, and also for us Psychonauts, you know, brief glimpses, these sator, these moments where we get to merge with the fabric of the universe itself, God, which is a word I'm now super comfortable using because I feel God, I know God, you know, in those experiences. And when I have a big, you know, 5-MeO experience, I just lay back and just say, God, God, God, God, God, like wow, like, so we have the ability to reach the whole range, all the way Atman as Brahman, our godhead enlivened and lit up like a Christmas tree from, you know, from, from the, the greatest Christmas tree of all time, or we have the ability to be in the full expression of our carnality. And so I think my own thesis is that humans are kind of in this golden Zone where we can also commit absolutely heinous atrocities, for sure, and the amount of pain we can experience is also available, but this is like, this is like a gambler's Paradise, you know, like if you want to be on the Riverboat, like as a human, you may experience the very worst in the universe, and you can experience also the very best; like we got range. And I think that's, uh, it's a, it's a beautiful kind of, at least from my own mind of being like, yeah, like I would choose human, you know, I would choose human again and again because there's, there's so much available here that's, that's beautiful. And also, I don't know what it would be like to be one of these other entities that I experienced; seem quite happy, full of laughter, full of love, full of wisdom, full of Peace, you know, full of connectedness to the cosmos. So, but I still, I'm holding it down that, that we got something special here as humans too.

100%. I mean, this is hyper humanism as opposed to transhumanism, which is why I keep talking about this idea that we don't know what we are yet. I think if we think of ourselves as discret humans, when in fact we are half bacteria and we're covered in fungi, you know, we're three queendom Ed in this sort of, in nested ecology, so that as soon as we realize we are the jackpot win, it is a jackpot win to be human for a thousand months; it is the Envy of the cosmos. Absolutely agree, but I think it's a case of like, you know, let's, we're talking about peeing Beyond the Veil, and we're constantly trying to Peak Beyond the Veil, but we don't want to, we want to have a human existence as well. So I think it's really about the balance and making sure that we, we, we stay rooted, but we, we travel far. And I think, like you say, with, with these Technologies like DMTs, we have that ability.

Carl, tell us some stories, man, because you know, you seem to be someone who, you know, like myself, have a particular aptitude and a particular tolerance, shall we say, for, you know, quite intense psychedelic experiences and have been blessed with the ability to navigate these while retaining, you know, memory of the experience and some navigability. So tell me some stories about these experiences; you know, you were patient zero and getting this Extended State DMT, you were the first one to do it and stayed through the studies, and I'm sure you've had your own personal experiences, which you don't need to talk about, but, but it's clear when I look in your eyes that, that you're the type of man that, that you know, that has explored beyond the boundaries of the laboratory, but so tell us just some, tell us just some stories, you know, about some unbelievable encounters that you've had with, you know, with these other intelligences.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I, I'll stick to what I've learned from, from being subject zero. I mean, I got the, I got the term thanks to Andrew from, uh, surviving three months of DMTs, um, me and Chris called it DMT church. So it was really a deep surrender into, into the fear, and, and I was lucky to not have any anxiety, anxiety ratings because one of the things they're measuring is anxiety as long as, as well as transformation, and we'll talk, we'll talk more about how to improve those protocols by going into nature as opposed to hospital Wings, which associate, you always associate hospitals with, you know, with lots of great things like death and dying and disease, and you know, in the same hospital bed that I'm doing DMT, somebody may have died earlier that day. So it's a context that is very easily improved, I think, and I think a lot of them, yeah, to say, to say the very least. I mean, the, the whole system there is, is just, it's, it's imbued with fear, right? Like you're in, you're in a giant, you're in a giant like fear Quagmire in a hospital, you know, every, everybody's afraid, and the, and the whole medical system is so much based on this, so not only in the, in the physical settings, but the energetic settings, and then also, you know, I believe in the early studies with Strassman when he was studying DMT, didn't they have like an anal thermometer that they had inside people, so everybody had these visions of getting probed anally by aliens, and that's where this Soul concept came, but it was actually because there was literally something in their ass.

Yeah, well, I'll leave that to Andrew to discuss, but I mean, I think, I think absolutely, I think 80% of the medicine is the context, of course, and that's, and if we think about so far where we're at with the Psychedelic Renaissance, all of the data is fundamentally skewed because it's done in hospitals, so you're not getting optimal results. I think those, obviously, we have naturalistic sort of studies as well, um, but I think if we can improve the base, the base level data, um, in terms of the data collection, then it's a no-brainer. But in terms of stories, you know, I always see these motifs on DMT; I always have a signer at the bottom of, bottom sort of right of the corner, there, there's like this, this energy that's, or this female presence that's going, yeah, do more DMT, thumbs up, or no, no, you've done enough now, just take it easy. So I'm getting this signer in the corner in the middle of my DMT Visions; I'm always seeing this light language that's very holographic; I can walk around it; it's like language made of architecture; it's, it's something that I've always wanted to draw out, and I think again, one of the limitations with these protocols, Imperial, is that you don't, you're blindfolded, you're kind of locked in, you're not able to kind of draw, even though I would be able to draw those hieroglyphs; I would, that's another reason why, you know, I'm very excited to, to improve on these protocols to be able to, to really understand this light language that it's very common; a lot of people see this. I think that you navigate with your breath, um, a lot of the time; that's how you do it in these Realms. You talked about DMT being maybe produced endogenously in the lungs; another great study to find out, but, um, but yeah, so when, when you're going in, um, at very high doses in an extended state, I mean, one of the things I'm, what, what I'm picking up from these intelligences, these, these entities is they're like, oh God, not you again, you know, you're only here like 3 weeks ago, like what's going on, like, uh, you know, we'll still do the psychic surgery on you, but please be mindful, you know, you don't, we don't need to see you so often, um, but it does seem like there's this, there's this mesh, this light mesh that you become part of; it's like a play pen almost, like your, they, it's built for them to observe you; there seems to be this sort of play pen environment, um, but it's like, it's Mutual exchange; it's like they're working on my energy, but for their own ends. So I think it's about surrendering to that and understanding that there's a mutual exchange; it's not just the one-way thing, which is why I talk about we got to be careful what kind of intentions we have going in, um, I think like being very humble about the fact that we may be entering something else's space, um, you know, one of the other things I think is it's very moral; it's a very moral space. I'm either in a space being, seeing these other Realms, or I'm in a, looking through a window, or I'm having a mirror onto my own life, which is kind of like, you're not doing so well, you know, you need to live sharp, you know, you need to, if you don't, if you don't act now and you die with the current state of affairs that you, you've got, death is not a place you want to be right now. So it's very moral; it's always like talking you about your relationships; it's towards the end of a trip I'll be getting these kind of very moral kind of inputs for metaprogramming, um, and I'm constantly being processed through these kind of interfaces; it's a very, it's a flow; there's a flow. I mean, I know we're, Andrew is particularly interested, as we all are at New Nautics, for the stabilization of the space, and I know that there's been attempts to try and map out the space; DMT Nexus, for instance, there was a whole sort of crowdsourced map of the DMT realm, and like, again, that's another fascinating thing, but I think what I experience when I'm doing especially high-dose DMTs is there's entirely different ontologies at play that are very different to thinking and feeling that we have as humans; entirely different ontological shocks or ontological Realms, um, and you know, one of the, one of the most interesting things I've always found in, in Yopo or Bufo experience or 5-MeO experiences is being the light, being this, this kind of Eternal infinite light; I'm always my question is always like, what is producing this, like, what is there anything beyond that, and if you look at into Buddhism and, uh, you know, you start to get some answers, but I, I've always asked like, what is beyond, uh, the 5-MeO experience, and one of the things that I found from doing DMTs, um, and Andrew knows about this well, is that on my large dose, on the largest dose, I'm sitting there, picture the scene; I've got a, I've got two, two intravenous, I've got canula, right? So I've got Bloods coming out of one arm, DMT going into the other, um, and you know, I'm, I'm not able to move very freely, but at the bottom of my bed, I'm seeing a white disc; I'm hallucinating, supposedly hallucinating this white disc, and it's like a black hole, but a white hole, and I know it's the unity space of the 5-MeO experience, which is strange 'cause I'm having an N,N-DMT experience, but it's such a, because it's extended, because it's a strong dose, I'm, I'm seeing the unity space, so it's like I'm bridging these, these dimensions, and as I'm looking into this space and trying to shuffle down my bed to get inside the hole, um, it cracks open, and suddenly it's like a, imagine a, um, an alien takeover of the DMT realm, and I'm like, what's going on, what's going to happen, and then as it cracks open, it opens, and I, I expect it to go back to a duality, but what it actually reveals is a, a, a plurality of unities, a plurality of different types of unity, and it's almost like the Meta Meta, you know, it's like a meta reality, but it made me realize that there is, you know, I was actually given a key physically to actually enter this realm, so it's kind of, I've been given this gifted knowledge of, of Beyond a Unity; there's, of course, there is, there's plurality of unities, and there's not just one type of unity, not just one type of this non-dual space. So it did feel like a mystery school; it felt like I was being gifted knowledge about death, you know, if you've not lived a good life, death is not somewhere you want to be, um, and it's about this kind of building the solar rainbow body; it's about surviving, learning how to die well, um, using these tools so that when you actually die, you don't die. I think that's, that's one of the big messages, um, and, and yeah, just, just architectures of, of, of embodied language is extraordinary and extremely sacred and extremely, you know, you have to be humble in the face of it. No doubt, humble, and in, in a way, Fierce, and, and I say that because there's, there are entities that you can just feel, you feel the energetics of them, and it's like, oh, this is not an entity that I want to, I want to [__] with, you know, and ultimately, some of these entities, I have a whole series of different strategies depending on the strength and gravity of these darker entities about what to do; some you can kind of dismiss, some you can call on other helpful allies, for some you...

Have to contest with; there's a whole, I won't get into my whole, you know, my whole philosophy on psychotic, you know, gunslinging here in in this, but it's: you have to be both wildly humble, but also have your short—the sword of your discretion—sharp, and to know like when you're in a safe place.

And what I found in multiple experiences is if you ask an entity to leave, or you're afraid, and they—they benevolent entity—they'll leave; they'll they'll move away, like the moment they sense your fear. Like I had these these rainbow eels that were coming in, and I was like, "Eels, I don't think I'm interested," but rainbow gave me a good sign, so I was like, "Ah, I'm not sure," and then they swam back out into the astral stream that they were coming from. I was like, "No, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, it's okay, it's okay, come on in," and then they got really close, and I was like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, I I don't know if I trust you," and then they left. And then finally I was like, "Okay, I trust you," and then they came in, and they started chewing up this darkness in my body and spewing it back out. I was like, "Oh, it's just the Ecstasy of being cleaned by these interdimensional beings," and so—and I've found that with the benevolent entities is they have—they really respect agency, and they're actually here benevolently, whereas these other entities, you could be like, "No, not today," and they're like [ __ ] you, like, "Here I am, you know, I'm gonna I'm going to do what I'm here to do."

And so there's both radical humility and surrender, and also like the fierceness of your sword of discretion. And these are things that I think people are not aware of when they go in naively; so generally naively, it's generally a benevolent place, and generally the best thing to do is surrender. And as you develop more experience, you learn, "Okay, here's the place where my sword of discretion needs to come, and I need to have a plan of how to deal with these things," which often times surrender is the best choice still, but there's certain times it requires certain different responses depending on what you're actually encountering.

So Andrew, what I don't know very much about what's happening, you know, and you have—you know, you're deep in the neurobiology—what's happening? Do we know what's happening to the brain wave state? Do we know what's happening? Do we know what's happening here beyond anything that I might have experientially understood? Like, what has been learned in the scientific field of what's happening during these states?

Well, we are in the last 20 years—well, really in the last decade to be honest—we've learned so much more about what's actually going on in the brain under the influence of of psychedelics more generally, and in more recent years DMT specifically. Um, but DMT is in many ways unique. So if we go back to the earlier studies with with proper neuroimaging—so we're talking about functional MRI imaging where you can actually see the activation of the brain in real time—imaging studies is imaging studies actually go back to 1950s, like early EEG studies, and even then—um—when subjects were given LSD or mescaline—um—the the EEG signature suggested that under the influence of the drug the the brain was somehow becoming more active, uh, more dynamic; there was more kind of randomness—um—even when the subjects had their eyes closed, it was if their brain was being—was kind of doing stuff, I guess you could say—um—suggesting that there was the brain was self-generating uh information, um, becoming very very active in even in the absence of sensory stimulation.

Um, at Imperial, in uh, from the beginning of the 2010s really—um—the first studies with psilocybin and then LSD—um—suggested that so normally your—in the normal waking state your brain activity is very tightly organized; your brain is kind of constructing this model of reality that we live in, this world model uh as a pattern of cortical activity, a pattern of pattern of cortical information—um—but under the—and it's very very tightly organized, and you can see the brain shifting between these very discrete states in the normal waking state, but when you give someone psilocybin or LSD you start to see uh kind of a loosening up of that activity; the brain activity becomes more kind of fluid and dynamic uh and more random in a way—um—as if the brain is able to explore a larger repertoire of of states—um—over time, and that kind of maps with most people's experience with something like LSD or psilocybin: the world becomes more fluid and dynamic—um—objects shift and morph, and their identity shifts before the eyes, that kind of thing—um—so that kind of made some sense, but with DMT something different seems to be happening; it's not like the normal world—the normal waking world—is is simply becoming more fluid and dynamic, but it's actually being completely obliterated. So you get this disorder with with psychedelics, you get this increase—go from order to a level of increasing disorder uh with the classic psychedelics like LSD and and psilocybin, and this increases and increases, but with DMT it's like you go to disorder initially, you know, this highly chaotic—um—complex geometric—geometric patterns, and then suddenly it drops back into this highly ordered state, but it's not an ordered state that's representing the normal waking world kind of on the other side, but it's like a a new form of order where this brain has dropped into sort of another attractor well, if you like—um—and found a completely new order which represents this highly coherent—um—highly complex alternate uh reality. And the question for me is where does that—where does that order come from? We can kind of explain—um—many of the features of the classic psychedelics in terms of this loosening up of neural activity, but what we can't explain, in my opinion, is why the brain can find this new order, this new world; how the brain is able to construct this highly coherent alternate reality model that bears no relationship to the one that it evolved to construct; your brain evolved to construct the normal waking world as a model of the environment; how does it know, you know, it's like it's—it's speaking a new language that it never learned—um—and what's interesting for me uh with some of the the latest neuroimaging studies coming out of Imperial is that you're starting to see—um—some of this order uh appearing uh in the EEG studies, for example—um—just a few years ago—um—they noticed a couple of things—um—first of all they noticed that—so a little tiny—tiny bit of neuroscience—but when you—when you open your eyes and you're viewing the world, you can see brain waves traveling; so information comes through the eyes, goes directly to the back of the brain—well, not directly, but almost directly—to the back of the brain called the primary visual cortex, and then it starts—the information starts flowing forward uh where it reaches higher levels of the cortex that start to process it and uh enables you to kind of construct this coherent model of reality—uh—so the—you can see—you can actually visualize these—um—brain waves moving forward across the cortex; you can also see them moving backwards in the opposite direction as well at the same time, so you have this—this bidirectional pathway of brain waves. Now when someone closes their eyes—normally—this is normal waking state—these waves traveling forward, they actually stop, right? And that makes sense because your brain—your eyes aren't receiving information—uh—and so these brain waves—you see the massive reduction in the brain waves that are moving forward, I.E. from the environment, these sensory brain waves if you like. Now interestingly with with DMT—uh—and again this was noticed uh first uh by Jordi Riba—um—with ayahuasca no less—is what he noticed is that even when subjects had their eyes closed under the influence of ayahuasca, he could see that the the information was flowing forwards from the back of the brain as if they were seeing with their eyes shut—um—and Chris Timmermann's group also saw exactly the same thing—uh—in that when they injected them with DMT, even with their eyes closed their brain activity looked almost indistinguishable—certain the EEG activity was indistinguishable from somebody who was sober and had their eyes open. So it's quite literally as if the brain is receiving information from who knows where and processing it like sensory inputs. So when you—so you are literally observing another world with your eyes closed, and your brain is processing the information from that world as it processes sensory information from the environment normally with your eyes open. So that to me—that's—that's astonishing, and it's like where does that information come from? I mean, in the papers they—they talk about system noise or spontaneous cortical activity in the lower visual cortices, and I—my response is, "Does that make any sense? Does this—does this feel like spontaneous noisy cortical activity that's just being generated by the brain because it's stimulated by a psychedelic?" No, it doesn't to me; this looks exactly like the brain is receiving some alternate source of sensory inputs that is directing that experience. I see the DMT world as a directed world—uh—I believe that the—you're not literally going anywhere as such, but you are gating the flow of information from some intelligent agent, right? They have control; you are basically giving them control of your cortex; you are saying, "Okay, my cortex is in this very fluid and dynamic and highly sensitive state, you guys or girls or whatever you are, you have it now; your cortex is like a stage; they are the directors; they control the visions." I always say you don't break through into the DMT world; the DMT world breaks through into you; they have control of your cortical world-building machinery for a few minutes or perhaps longer than that—um—and they are directing—you are—your cortex is merely the stage—uh—and they are directing the visions.

And so let's talk about—and—and the—they—you know, the—they answer to me is I think there's entities, and there's also God, and God is this—this field of energy that ex—that the—the imminence of the Transcendent God—the imminence appears as sacred geometry that eventually takes form and molecular structures and and then everything else, but it's—it's geometry, you know, like it's geometry all the way up and all the way down until it actually finds the density of where we are now, but this is—you're actually tapping into the godhead as it's articulated in its imminence rather than just the pure Transcendent state, which potentially with the 5-meo we may get a glimpse at, but still it's—still filtered through our own hermeneutic prism, the way that we see things and process information and our own limitations as as a singular being, but nonetheless—so that—that aspect of—for me—me—how I've reconciled the—they—not—it's not necessarily like one being is transmitting a particular movie to me; it's like I'm entering into a realm that's actually all contained within this Universal multi-dimensional Cosmos. But that being said, I think, you know, and that's again that's just my personal—my personal feelings on it.

What about safety? Because there's a lot of people—I even saw Elon Musk tweet something that referred to ayahuasca as "Giga-frying the brain." I saw that and I was like, "Bro, like you've never done it, you know, like—like maybe do it first, you know, like I really appreciate so much of the things you've done, but it's a little out of your realm; you got to do it first, you know," and then before you start to say things like "Giga-fry" and get people freaked out about what's happening here.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So ultimately, like what have you seen, because you guys have studied safety? Safety was the primary objective—was to determine safety, and then you also reference briefly—not only is it potentially safety, but maybe actual health benefits, you know, with—you know, neurogeneration or neuroplasticity or—you know, BDNF—like the ability to form new connections. So what are we talking about with safety and health of the brain and overall organism that you guys have seen from these studies?

I mean, I mean Kyle touched on the safety—sort of spiritual—that kind of safety, which I think is very important, you know; personal psychological—spiritual safety is of course important, but when people talk about safety they're normally talking about physical safety: Is it going to make you go—go insane? Is it going to Giga-fry your brain, whatever the [ __ ] that means? Um, the short answer is no, it's not—um—it's actually—you know, the the safety record of DMT is—it's up there with—you know, the other psychedelics really, you know; the classic psychedelics have a remarkable safety record uh in that they are at least physically completely non-toxic, you know; DMT, you can pump somebody with DMT for—there's a group in—Basel I think—uh—who have just done a 2-hour DMT—um—trial which they—they—they just literally published—um—earlier in the week I think—um—or last week, and it's completely safe—uh—it has no neurological toxicity whatsoever; the brain is very comfortable with it—um—the fact that the brain is able to absorb it so readily and get rid of it—metabolizes it—metabolizes it as if it's metabolizing one of its own neurotransmitters at about the same rate that it metabolizes serotonin or noradrenaline; it's—it's perfectly at home with this molecule—um—and—and so in fact it—it seems as you—as you said—it's likely to lean in the opposite direction—not in just safe, but actually beneficial, and a number of studies now have—have demonstrated that not just DMT, but LSD and psilocybin are either neuroprotective or positively neuroregenerative—that can actually stimulate the growth of—either new neurons or new connections between neurons—um—which is a remarkable thing. So you can imagine someone with—with stroke, for example—DMT—um—there—there's actually a study that's going on right now in the early phases I think of testing the ability of DMT uh to protect the brain uh in in stroke patients. We know that DMT—it binds to this—what's called an orphan receptor, which is a receptor in the brain that doesn't seem to have anything endogenous that sticks to it—um—this orphan receptor called the sigma-one receptor—when DMT binds to this receptor that's found on—in neurons, it actually protects the neuron—protects the brain cell in a very low-oxygen environment. So when you have a stroke—blood supply—oxygen supply to—to a certain area of the brain is compromised, and those areas of the brain—they start to die quite quickly, and this is—can be catastrophic—lead to death or—or it leads to—massive kind of debilitating—uh—disabilities—um—and so if you can protect these brain cells during that acute stroke period by infusing DMT—H into someone's bloodstream—um—then this might be—could potentially be a revolutionary treatment uh for stroke, and that also could be in fact why we have endogenous DMT. Dennis McKenna—Edie—they hypothesize that the release of DMT—uh—whether it's by the brain itself or whether it's by the lungs, for example, in a low-oxygen state—so this would be at the point of death, you know, as you are approaching death, brain oxygen levels start to plummet; this might be the—the body's last-ditch attempt to protect the brain just in case you come back—just in case you don't die—by flooding the brain with with DMT would protect the brain, but it was also cause this astonishing—so it's like it could also—it could be like twofold, right? So you're—you're in the dying process; DMT is released; it's protecting the brain, but it's also generating this transition state between life and death; it's allowing you to transition to the other—or the afterlife—I don't know what you want to call it, right? But should you actually come back, your brain will be in a much better state because it's also being protected via this sigma-one receptor—um—so it's kind of—it's almost like—has this dual function—maybe—and so if you can simulate situations that mimic this—either a low-oxygen state—um—whether it's influenced also by darkness—this is also a possibility; we don't really know actually what is uh regulating endogenous DMT, but it's certainly something we're very interested in working out, and then we can maybe hack the brain's endogenous DMT system to induce DMT states reliably in people without having to inject them with anything.

Yeah, what do you think about—I mean, I'm just imagining a future world, right? You know, football player comes off the field, gets a concussion; you know, MMA fighter just retires, and they're on a pathway towards CTE, and you know their brain is in some state of cognitive decline from—I mean, could you—and obviously we haven't shown this to be true, but it seems to me that you could hypothesize a world where we start to see actually the neurogenerative properties that are being started to be hinted at by—by some of these compounds be almost like a first-line treatment in some ways—like you get out of the concussion tent, and they're like, "All right, you're going to miss practice for a few days because you got to go into a DMT experience, and we're going to actually repair the brain and let the Mantis beings come in there and do what they need to do to help you—to help you out here, buddy," you know, like I could—I could almost see that as just—maybe—not—maybe not a—a definite—a definite outcome of where this is going to go, but—but possible, you know, because I felt—I felt personally like there were certain times where—sometimes it's like little doctors—almost like—um—tiny little beings of light that are working on all different levels of my body—sometimes larger beings that are working—it's either the dros—I call them like the little doctors—that are working to fix things in my brain and—and my body, or it's sometimes like a big doctor—like the head doctor—which was this interdimensional Mantis being that was doing this very acute, you know, surgical process with these kind of—you know, arms—these—these arms of light that were kind of moving into my brain and adjusting things. It's incredibly profound, you know, to me, the—the—just the possibility of what it might be like to go into this intergalactic—interdimensional hospital and be like, "Hey, y'all, you know, I got beat up a little bit here; I love you guys very much, you know, I intend great things and good for the world, you know, like asking here humbly for all the support possible," and I just wonder—you know, I wonder from just the neurobiological factors that you could measure and also the psychospiritual factors, which I think are going to—you know, be shown to continue to be more interwoven—if this is going to be something that's not only beneficial for potentially strokes, but potentially CTE, potentially—you know, other forms of cognitive decline.

Yeah, I think so, and I think you're going to see—I imagine in the future every ambulance will be stocked up with—with—with DMT to treat people on the field or in their home, you know, when the paramedics arrive—um—they will be set up to—to give you DMT, and why not? I mean, there's this weird stigma—"Oh, it's a psychedelic drug"—but no, this is a—this could be a revolutionary treatment and a revolutionary neuroprotective and neurorestorative—uh—neuroregenerative—uh—agent; why wouldn't we be using it? And I think we're getting past that—that stigma now—uh—DMT is entering a new golden age, and we're seeing that with studies in—with depression and PTSD, and people are accepting now that these aren't just drugs—"quote-unquote" drugs—but these are—I—I—I see them as technologies; I see DMT as a technology—a technology with many functions—um—that we are only just beginning to learn—um—um—how to use, and I think that's only going to increase uh in the years—well—and—and you guys—you know—so you guys are doing something pretty remarkable; you're setting up—you have something in the Caribbean; you have a license to actually study not only DMT but any psychedelic compound, and so you now have this kind of very interesting cart blanche—launch—to create the most incredible context, and you know Andrew was very—you know—was—was very sweet to describe you, Carl, as a kind of contextualist—like a master of the context—a master of the set and setting of the—of the experience. So you guys working together with the—you know, the peak—you know, the top medical practices and studies that need to be done in the greatest context possible with the widest spectrum available of psychedelics—I mean, when I heard what you guys were up to, you know, thanks to our mutual friend—um—Donnie, who goes by the name Savage.

But it was like holy [ __ ] like this is incredible what you guys have, and that's captured under, you know, under news.org for anybody who's interested in checking that out. It's New Natics, like astronautics or psychonautics, dog. And I'm, I just, I can't wait, I can't wait to go, first of all, number one, personally, but I'm also just so excited about what this could mean for the world.

Yeah, I think I think it's uh it's a huge opportunity, and I'm very grateful for my time at Imperial that's led to this opportunity to really improve those protocols, to do it in nature, you know, to imagine a scene where you can go have a light breakfast and you go off and snorkel on the Barrier Reef, and then you come back and you have a a lomy lomy massage for for a couple of hours with, you know, five people massaging you in a really mindful 10-handed massage, unlike what I get at Imperial, which is basically a body scan whilst I'm in a scanner going, "Now relax your legs, Carl. Now relax your arms, Carl." So, you know, then you have your hyperbaric oxygen chamber to get your oxygen just just right.

So my role at New Natics at Alfis, which is what we're calling the retreat, is uh this idea of Context Engineering. So what is the perfect pre-context for going into one of these DMT Extended State experiences? And of course, you want to be as, you know, you want to be in your parasympathetic nervous system, you want to be completely relaxed, um, and then you want to have some sort of special post-context; the integration is something again Imperial can't spend a lot of time on. It's very expensive to do these clinical trials; it's very expensive in terms of time; it t, you know, it there were 11 of us that went through uh the the DMTx trial uh in terms of the pilot phase anyway, and not many people got through it because of those contextual factors, those limiting factors, and then it takes another two years to publish. So it's a four-year process to publish a tiny amount of people, whereas in in the the Caribbean we can have we can have a plug-and-play model, so we can have the world-leading uh institutes like the Beckley Foundation, like Imperial, like the group at Basel, like the groups all over the world now doing DMTx to come to the island and actually have this uh this this carte blanche, as you talked about, to to do other protocols. So, you know, we could do the heart protocol on on Monday, then DMTx on Wednesday, you can do DMTx twice in the same week. So I think that these these opportunities now, luckily for us, are are opening up at a time when, you know, we're sort of seeing the Psychedelic Renaissance hit the buffers a little bit, you know, with the FDA decision not to give MDMA to Veterans. Um, that's kind of like put a bit of a much more kind of eyes on the space, which I think can't be a bad thing, to get these protocols completely ironed out, to make sure that we aren't causing any kind of lasting damage.

Because what we don't want is just more chasing the tail, because what I'm trying to achieve with my work um is altered traits, right? We don't want just endless Altered States, constantly trying to get, chase that Peak experience; we want to see real integration, which means that you've actually learned as much as you can from that reflection of these extraordinary, curatable trips. Like DMTx gives us the opportunity, you know, you're in your trip right, and then suddenly you're seeing entities, but the resolution's too low, so you say to me or to whoever sitting um next to you, "Can you increase the dose while I have this meeting?" And you've gone in there for your for your 2-hour scheduled meeting where you've gone in for a specific scientific question, you know, you may be a mathematician or an indigenous leader or, you know, just just a psychedelic researcher or a psychonaut that's gone in for a specific purpose, and that's the beauty of this technology, as Andrew refers to it. It is a technology because it's like plugging into electricity. We know from Imperial that the heart it does stabilize, you know, whenever we do DMTx there is this kind of like, "Oh My God" moment where you have this kind of body load, but it stabilizes, and we know that there's very little tolerance, so the, you know, the dream is for me to have a low-level, very low-level DMTx experience where I can fall asleep inside the DMT trip and have this Inception, you know, dream, the dream of DMT. And Andrew jokes that he doesn't need to do, we don't need to do that, you can just inject me while I'm asleep with DMT and then see if I have this. It's not a joke.

So yeah, so I think my my thing is like, yeah, let's combine the South American lineages with the the Egyptian lineages. I know you're a big fan of the Elixir, but now we know saffron, if you take saffron it's like an alternative to MDMA; if you take frankincense and myrrh, it's like the equivalent to to Valium or orus. I mean, all our the Ancients were taking orus, right? So that's monatomic gold, monatomic silver, you know, so what what did they, they were into being with the m with not just with the plants but with the minerals and the elements. So I'm really interested in in combining, you know, in terms of coming out of a DMTx experience, what can you take, maybe some sort of Blue Lotus with uh lapis lazuli, you know, as as a as a way of really benefiting and amplifying those States and getting as much out of it and being as sensitive to it as possible, so that these things can uh really, you know, take us to to the places we want to be.

But at New Nortic we have so many advantages, as you see on the website. We're looking for for natural sources of ketamine through a mushroom that we're now growing in the lab. You know, imagine if we can produce, imagine, you know, all of those people that thought that ketamine was was a synthetic substance, very sort of like to be avoided, but actually it's not, it's not um it's not a it's not a plant medicine, it's a fungi medicine, you know, they got there first, the mushrooms got there first, so we we're second to the party. Um, but also AI drug development, there's so many new drugs, 100,000 new uh drugs discovered by AI that hit the 5-HT2A receptor. I mean, we have no, we we we need multiple eyes on these on these things, and we need it's citizen science, you can't do it all yourself, you need to open it up to the best and the brightest minds, and I think that that's the opportunity we have to really bring, and it is the modern-day mystery school, which is why we've called it Alfis, in in homage to the great mystery schools of ancient Greece. And also my my my other big win is, or wish is 5-MeO-DMT, cuz I want to stay in inside that experience for much longer. Wow.

Yeah, I mean it's uh there's so many, there's so many for, you know, for a psychonaut like myself, again, 25 years exploring this and had the best of the best and the worst of the worst, you know, in my time there, but overall the best of the best and experiences and everything in between, um, and then there's still a few, there's still a few that are Out Of Reach, and you know I've talked to to Don about this as well, and he's had, you know, some personal experiences with a compound called MXE, methoxetamine, which is completely unavailable on the, you know, on the kind of your local medicine dealer, as you might call it, you know, and because I believe these are medicines, although any medicine can be used as a drug, and so we have to be mindful of that, just as any drug can probably be a medicine in the right context as well. I'm open to the flexibility depending on the dose and the individual and intention and how it's working with you, etc., that there's a whole gamut between medicine and drug, but methoxetamine in particular is something that's hypothetically available for study, you know, at Nun Notics, and it's become this kind of like interesting thing as someone who's experienced pretty much all of the classic psychedelics, now not going into Shulgin's, you know, deep cuts of uh of all of the different compounds that he's created, but experiencing pretty much everything else out there, this one has kind of illuminated, shimmering like a like a star that I could only, you know, partially see because I have no idea.

Talk a little bit about that compound, because to me it's become this little mini mini Grail quest to find the ability to actually experience this, which, you know, um Donnie is one of my most respected psychonautic brothers who's had the experience, saying, "This was this was incredible, bro, like you you don't even understand like how how potent this compound is." So explain to people who've never heard of MXE what it is and what that experience might be like.

So MXE was legal from uh 2010 to 2014 uh worldwide. Uh, MXE was very famous for um allowing a lot of heroin addicts, cocaine addicts to just quit because it was just superior. Um, it's there, the church that sprung up in the states around surrounding MXE, and I think it's an extraordinary medicine because it's kind of three drug actions in one substance. So you have this sort of opiated relaxation where there's kind of no anxiety whatsoever, then you have this kind of MDMA rush where you're very um you you just want to make change in the world, and then you have the ketamine kind of disassociation, so you're completely relaxed, um very very stimulated and disassociated. So it's like the ultimate metaprogramming tool where you're like the first thing you sort out are those family blockages where you've not spoken to someone in your family for 20 years, that's the first thing you go and do because you just you just you just have the will, and you have this kind of like magic source. So of course, I it is folklore, um and of course when we when we have something that has disappeared from the from from the planet, people start conspiracy theories around it, but I have done um many many years exploring on MXE, and one of the the most famous things um for me was that it was a massive new, it was a new tropic, it was a smart drug. I I won 10 million uh pounds sterling um writing grants, and I I put five grants together, uh won all of them, and some of them only had a 1% chance, and my boss at the time told me to stop [Laughter] winning. Wow. I mean, and this is where this is where the folklore starts to come in because because Donnie's stories are equally as profound, and you know it reminds me of, you know, Aldous Huxley was in this kind of quest to try to find, you know, this the kind of The Elixir, this this particular compound which would be like the perfect psychedelic, and I'm not saying that MXE is, and I think every psychedelic should be respected as any unique individual should be respected, you can't say that the Buddha was better than the Christ or, you know, something something like that, like there's a unique prism by which you can look at all of the beauty and all of its uniqueness, everything has a place in all reverence all around, but it's and he, you know, Huxley in his in his kind of meditations on this, he was he was very into mescaline, and that was what was available to him at that point in time, but he was always imagining like, "What if there was something that was universally like universally the Moksha, like the medicine that you could use for like these deep initiatic processes and rituals?" And you know, so this curiosity for me is is high on the list. So, you know, I hope that one day down there in the in the Caribbean with full legality and full blessing from not only the legal authorities but the cosmic authorities that I get to uh I get to be one of the early patients, maybe maybe my own patient zero experience in the new in the new era on MXE, as well as of course exploring the familiar territory in a novel way with the DMTx experience, which is exciting.

I mean, the DMT experience for me is so, one, it's been so wonderful, it doesn't mean that I haven't encountered, you know, dark Journeys where I've, you know, faced off with the world Crusher who is negotiating with me for the soul of my father and playing, I mean I've had very intense experiences, so I come with maximum respect, but overarchingly the experience is highly pleasurable, especially if you strip away the nausea and the vomiting and the different elements that come with nausea, which can be deeply uncomfortable somatically, but the the experience itself, you know, is something that, you know, I come to with full respect, you know, but no fear, you know, just a kind of just the the appropriate amount of reverence and awe and and humility, as you said, but also like, wow, like what a blessing to have, you know, got connected to you guys, what a blessing that you guys are opening up this possibility for, you know, the return of the exploration. And not only the exploration, I mean what you were describing as far as like a a a center, it's like the Dream Center where you're weaving in, you know, the Bodywork Technologies and the and nature itself. I mean, nature is such a factor, like anybody who's done mushrooms knows that like you do mushrooms in the house and you're outside somewhere where the outside is beautiful, the like as soon as you can get off your mat, the very first thing you want to do is is watch the trees breathe with you, you know, and like feel the feel the clouds, you know, feel the clouds, you know, moving in the sky and the Sun, and it's like it's unbelievable. So to combine nature with all of the human touch Technologies, so all of the right music, you know, I'm good friends with John Hopkins who's produced some of the most incredible music for psychedelic therapy, same with Pangi in his Kuya sessions and and you know all of these in in uh East Forest, you know, like there's so many great musicians not only who are there to sing the EOS and the traditional music but also create like the popular versions you can just listen to on Spotify of just unbelievable music for these experiences, and weaving all of that together in a legal setting where you don't have to worry about, you know, some jack-booted authorities coming breaking down your house and ruining your trip, like that's the only real bad trip is if the if the cops come bust in, you know, at that at that point. But it's it's uh it's such a dream, and I mean I'm just so grateful, with all the complexities and challenges in the world, the existential risks that are popping up, there's Solutions with asymmetrical potential value that are also now becoming available, and I think it's no accident that these things are happening kind of simultaneously.

Yeah, I mean when I when I first kind of was working with Rick Strassman back in 2016 when we wrote the original DMTx proposal paper, um we wrote in the paper initially that we wanted to use this as a tool for establishing two-way communication with these beings, to to explore this space and to navigate it and learn to integrate ourselves with this space. We had to remove that from the paper uh because one of the reviewers said, "We can't be having talk of alien intelligence in an academic paper," so we cut it out, but that was my dream from the beginning. Now I'm really grateful. I mean what Imperial have done is they they real Trailblazers and and Pioneers in actually taking our proof of proof of principle model and actually showing that it's safe and tolerable in humans, that it works, you can stabilize the DMT state, but it was never my uh intention that this this would just be restricted to research institutions or the kind of standard research institutions where they you there's a six-month recruitment period, you end up with a dozen people, and it takes two years for those dozen people to be worked through the system, and they're asking very limited academic kind of questions, you know, "What are the changes in neural activity?" and you know that kind of thing. For me it's it's always been about much much more than that; it's about bringing this extended experience to as many people as possible in a safe, beautiful, optimized uh environment. And so when I started working with New Natics and they said to me, I've been working with them since 2016, uh this nonprofit organization operating out of Florida, um Egon, who's one of the directors, he he called me and he said, "We have this license um in the Caribbean, St. Grenadine, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, so this beautiful uh Island system in in the Caribbean, they have this license, we can use any drug that we want, um literally any psychedelic uh we have this Retreat Center that we that we can construct," as Carl said, we're calling it Alfis or Elis, I think most people pronounce it. People can go to eluis mind.com and actually uh look at what this retreat's all about, but what we can do there is go completely go beyond the academic institutional model uh where we can bring not just sick people or uh you know that's not just the aim is not just to bring in people who are suffering from, you know, psychological conditions or whatever want to be healed, uh but people who want to explore, people who want to kind of um navigate this space um for extended periods of time and and and being able to optimize that protocol um such that it is a manageable experience, so that people can be gently um induced into the state and maybe even control the level of their own state. So you can imagine them having some kind of tool, um some kind of device in their hand where they can actually ramp up the experience, or if it's getting a bit much they can bring themselves out. There might be drug combinations that we can explore; we thought about a number of possible drug combinations that might enhance the experience or alter the emotional coloring of the experience. It's like the world is our oyster; there's nothing um that we can uh that we we couldn't do uh on this island, and this is completely, there's nowhere else in the world, there's going to be nowhere else in the world that could offer this um that can use any drug that doesn't have to go through jump through all these bureaucratic and legal loopholes. We can we can think about drug combinations and we can try them, we can develop them. So it's it's not just a retreat center that we're building, but it's a also a research center, but a research center unlike any other in the world. I think I think it's it's it's a it's a a completely unique uh place. So people can come for five or six days, they will have their pre- kind of uh preparation, yoga and mindfulness and meditation, swimming in the ocean of course, uh then they would have a series of DMTx sessions, maybe starting with a low dose DMTx session, particularly if they're not particularly experienced, to accustom them to the space, and then integration, and then maybe a deeper one later in the week uh where they they can go, they can push themselves, you know, much deeper into the state, and then again follow that up with integration, and uh it's just the whole idea is is completely magical, and it's kind of it's a dream really for anyone who wants to explore DMT in the most beautiful and optimal setting that you can imagine.

Um, there's going to be uh no place like it. Unbelievable. When is, when are you guys going to be, when are they going to be receiving people to uh to come experience this? Is it already happening or is there like an official launch date?

There's no official launch date, but it's going to be in 2025 we expect to get, so if people go to eluis mind.com they can actually sign up um or express their interest at least. Um, in the first year we expect to be able to push through around about 300 people, is that about right, Carl? Um, obviously initial stages will be people like like yourself, Aubrey, and and and Associates, and you know, selected, Selected Few uh who will be the initial, just to kind of to optimize the protocol, you know, we want to, before we roll it out to uh the public at large, we want to we want to get everything optimized, and this is why Carl is here, because he's going to be the man uh that's going to be steering that. I mean, I'm the scientist, the academic neuroscientist type, but when it comes to the all the other stuff that's actually in many ways as important, if not...

More important than the drug itself, the context in which you're taking the drug—uh, the setting, um, um—that's where, where, where car will come in, and we'll have teams, of course. We'll have teams; we'll have doctors and nurses and uh, other scientists and medics. You know, it's going to be um, a broad and broadly, with, with broad expertise, kind of team, um, that's going to be involved in, in developing this, this, this, this Retreat and Research Center. What a dream! What a dream! All right, so I want to talk about some archetypes of entities that are commonly referred to. Let's talk about the elves, or the machine elves. All right, so what is going on there with these? And sometimes they're called gnomes. You know, I think my Ayahuasca shaman, Maestro Orlando Chandama of the Keta lineage, you know, he, he would refer to the gnome, gnomes more than elves, but I think that the gnome and elf are is pretty much the same thing: small beings, seem slightly mischievous, not necessar—not definitely not malevolent; certainly doesn't seem to be in the highly benevolent class either. So what, what is this? What is that phenomenon? And I want to talk about them, and I want to talk about the mantis beings, and then I want to talk about some, some of the more Angelic beings that you might encounter. But let's start with the elves. What, what's going on here? Well, the elves, I can probably start there. I mean, we, the elves or gnomes or Pixies, or Terence McKenna used to call them Tikis, uh, as well as machine elves, they, they go back in, in, in pure DMT studies; they go back to Steven Zara's first study. So Steven Zara was this Hungarian physician who discovered the psychedelic effects of DMT. He synthesized it himself; he injected it, uh, uh, into himself. This was the good old days when you, you know, proper real scientists, uh, who injected drugs into themselves, um, and he discovered the the psychedelic effects of DMT and immediately started recruiting mainly doctors and nurses from the hospital, uh, and one of his first subjects actually reported this experience of seeing these very small beings, like dwarves—she described them—that were moving very, very quickly. That's all we got, but was an indication there that even, you know, this, people often say that, oh, it's only because Terrence McKenna talks about the elves that people see elves, and that's never made any sense to me whatsoever, because elf-like experiences—yes, he christened them the machine elves—but these diminutive, lively, mischievous beings, as you describe them, they go back to the beginning and in indigenous traditions as well. They often talk about the little people. Um, one of the the names of the of the chacruna plant, actually, um, by a different group, uh, is oito, which means little Heavenly people, um, because the chacruna plant, which contains DMT, allows them to see the oito, which is the little Heaven, little Heavenly people. Um, users of the ayahuasca snuffs, these Virola-based resin snuffs, uh, when Richard Schultes was surveying or doing work in the Amazon back in the 1950s, one of his assistants said to him, while he was, he was looking at this Virola tree, um, said to him, oh, this is, this is the tree my, my father uses pellets from when he wants to see the little people. Um, so these little people, they're not some idiosyncratic thing that's bubbling up out of Terrence McKenna's mind; they seem to be a universal feature of DMT-induced um, experience. So where do they come from? Um, we don't know. People have said that they are, you know, these are, this is the the trickster or the jester archetype. To me, that's a very simplistic explanation. Archetypes provide kind of the broad brush strokes for certain universal characters, but they don't capture um, the um, the, the truly complex and dynamic and intelligent behavior of these beings, which certainly seem entirely non-human and yet, in, in a weird kind of way, um, familiar. They're waiting for you; they, they welcome you into the space; they're the ones that are, that are throwing the party, if you like; they're the ones ringing the bells and, and, and flashing the lights and kind of cheering, you know, this great hurrah as you enter the space. You know, "He's back! Welcome back!" Um, so I, I think they're, they're an integral part um, of this space, whatever they are, and they, they, they ought to be cherished, I guess, because they are kind of wonderful. I think—I want to hear your thoughts on this, Carl. I have not experienced—so, despite again hundreds of DMT journeys through different, through different means, I've never experienced them personally. So interesting to note, but that just hasn't—so it's not like a guarantee that they'll be there. But I was sitting with uh, Maestro Orlando Chandama again, from the Keta lineage, and he was explaining the different entities that were entering the Maloka, and he's always, you know, he creates a realm of protection to prevent the darker entities from entering, and then sometimes entities will enter, and when any entity that entered that he knew, you know, didn't have the best intentions, he would take a big breath, and in his practice he takes this big breath with his full intention; he goes and like just pushes him out, right? Like he has, he's developed and cultivated the mastery, and he said that the little, the little elves came in and started kind of dancing around, and they had little hats on, and they were dancing around the Maloka, and this is his vision. I didn't share that vision with him, but in his vision they came in, and he kind of let them, he let them kind of hang around for a little while, and you know, he's had, again, thousands of journeys, so these are familiar beings to him, so he let them kind of hang around and dance and do their thing for a little while, and then gently—not with the forceful breath of, like, "This is my space"—you know, his nickname is the Dragon of the Jungle, so he didn't blow the dragon fire, but he was like, "Okay, guys, time to leave," like it was just like a whole different approach that he had, which was like, "You guys can hang for a little bit, but you know, there's other work we're doing here, so carry on, carry on, little friends," you know? So it was just interesting for me to hear his sentiment towards them, which was just like, "They're cute, you know, they're not going to be doing much harm or not much good, but they're, they're there." And I've also heard many other experiences. I think Joe Rogan had an encounter where they were literally, as you said, like cheering them on, like, "Yeah, let's go, Joe! Like, good job, you're back! Like, come on, buddy! Like, way to go!" You know? And so there's this whole pantheon of—but it's very interesting that there's this kind of steady archetype of these, these types of beings. Have you encountered them yourself, Carl?

Yeah, absolutely. And there's a book coming out, *Illustrated Field Guide to DMT Entities: Machine Elves, Tricksters, Teachers, and Other Interdimensional Beings*, where David and Sarah have actually used AI to help visualize tons and tons and tons of trip reports, so they, they've come up with all these, these variety of, of uh, of entities. Yeah, it reminds me of my—I had—the reason why I got into—I was lucky enough to meet Chris Timmermann, um, outside the Conway Hall where Robin Carhart-Harris had just given a talk, um, amongst others, um, and I just come back from doing a Siloa journey. So Siloa is, for, for those that don't know, it's your uh, Peganum harmala seed, so Syrian Rue, um, before doing um, mushrooms. So very different uh, experience, and it amplifies the, the five-gram heroic dose of mushrooms by five. So you, you did a 5g Siloa journey?

Five g, yeah. Wow.

And it was the equivalent of around 25. And I've done it twice, and every time it's absolute alien invasion! Oh boy! Almost instant as well, like first, first trip, I'm on a, I'm on a spaceship, I'm on a, a shuttle, a typical sorcerer, you know, and, and the amount of, of entities, the variety, from tiny little elves to ginormous—and you, and you're trying to understand how can they fit on this tiny ship, right? It was an intergalactic Noah's Ark!

What do you mean exactly? There's, there's no, there's just, you know, there's no, there's no reason for it, but you're just, you know, the again, the ontological shock, you're just overwhelmed, um, and uh, Brexit had just happened. I remember I was in a really bad mood because of Brexit. I mean, the decision to go, to leave Europe, so I'm in a bad mood, and they're all insisting, and I can see in the middle of the sorcerer there's this, uh, there's this scanner, right? And it's the most advanced technology I've ever seen in my life, and I'm like, and they're all going, "Get in the scanner! Get in the scanner!" And, and I can see this, the shape of the scanner, and there's a, there's a, there's a on the, on the side of the the sorcerer is the same shape, so I'm like, okay, I'm just thinking this through, so they're going to scan me in that box, and then they're going to fire that box out into the universe and spread me into, just like we talked about, into galactically, and uh, because I was in such a bad mood because of Brexit, I was just like, "I'm not doing it!" And I regret to this day, and even blame Brexit for not being an intergalactic citizen already!

Unbelievable! What a, what an epic story!

Yeah. I remember my first Siloa journey, I was, I spent three hours riding on the head of a, of like a cobra, which was interesting enough, that it was like a, it was like a cobra was riding on the head of a cobra, going in and out of the layers of a jungle, and I, so it go into the dirt, and there would be all these insects that would be surrounding me and coming out of me, and then I'd go up to the canopy of the treetops, and I was laughing the whole time. My grandfather, who I never met—my grandfather's name was Aubrey, which is one of the reasons I took the name Aubrey—was my middle name, and I go by Aubrey now, but he was there with me, and he was, he was laughing, like his spirit, even though I've never met him, he was just laughing. He's like, "Oh wow, you're really in for it now, buddy!" And he was, he, you know, according to all reports from my grandma and everybody who knew him well, he loved to laugh, and that was, you know, his favorite book was *Don Quixote*, and I got to have my first real experience where, you know, he was with me on this wild ride that was like 3 hours, and that was only two grams, you know? And that was, but still it was like, it was a remarkable, remarkable experience. And I would caution to all, you know, backyard psychonauts, be very, very, very careful when you're using something like Syrian Rue; the amplification effects are extreme, and whether that's Syrian Rue before, you know, doing smoking DMT or before uh, before psilocybin, or be super, super mindful. This is like, experienced—know this is like high on the experience; you got to get your black belt before you want to start, or be really guided, like I was, by, by a shaman who really understands that in a, in a really deep way. But uh, you know, again, there, like in the pantheon of possibilities, this is just one of those things that emerge that can give you unbelievable experiences, and again, that's not a DMT experience; it's psilocybin is the active, but it, it's very DMT-like in the, in the space. I've never had a journey on mushrooms that was that profound, like an Ayahuasca journey, other than Siloa, which is why I think the name is appropriate.

Yeah, I think um, psilocybin definitely has the potential to approach or even reach uh, the DMT state. I mean, these are very molecularly, they are very, very similar. I mean, DMT is dimethyltryptamine; psilocybin is 4-phosphoryloxy-dimethyltryptamine, which converts to psilocin, which is 4-hydroxydimethyltryptamine, um, so they're very similar molecules, um, and certainly, you know, for most people who take a gram or two of, of dried mushrooms, you, you, you're not going to have, you know, don't be too concerned; you're not going to reach that kind of state, but certainly once you start to push it um, to, you know, five grams and above, or as you say, if you combine it with Syrian Rue, which contains, which is a much more readily available version uh, or source of harmine, harmaline, which is actually where the name harmal—harmine and harmaline came from—harmala, Peganum harmala, uh, then you can definitely amplify the experience and reach DMT uh, kind of territory uh, for, for a long period of time. So it can be, in many ways, much more profound and certainly much more extended, uh, than a regular DMT trip, uh, so it's certainly not for beginners; it's not something um, to play with, as you say; it's definitely something to take seriously.

Yeah. All right, I got to talk to you about mantis beings, because I've seen, I've seen different insect, insect-like beings; some felt extraordinarily benevolent, like this, the the mantis being that I recently encountered in my Ayahuasca journey, it felt like I just went to the head, the head neurosurgeon of the cosmos, like literally, like the respect that I felt and just the awe of this being that was so beyond, so beyond the capacity of anything else, completely non—like, like didn't communicate verbally, but there was this dialogue of, like, when I was, when I was hesitant because it was this gigantic mantis being that was seemed intent on using gold and light to do things in my brain and body, I was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa! Like, like, do I trust you?" And he's, and he just pulls back and he waits, like, "If you don't trust me, you're making a big [ __ ] mistake, bro!" I was like, "No, no, no! I trust you! I trust you!" And then, and then I was like, "But I'm a little afraid," and, and then he goes, "You're afraid? Well, you need to get over—" like this all psychic—not, I didn't hear a word that came out, but it was all psychic—"You're afraid? Well, you better get over that!" And then, like, showed me all of these things to be afraid of. He like, "You still afraid?" And I'm like, "No, I'm not afraid!" And then it just, then at that point it just got to work. So this was my encounter with the mantis beings, my first one, and I'm imagining that, you know, you guys have reports of these, this mantis class of beings as this kind of, I don't know, I guess neurosurgeon of the, of the cosmos; that's at least what it was to me. How does that resonate with what you've seen from the field research about this class of beings?

Yeah, I mean, so I would say that the elves, these little diminutive, jovial ones, they're extremely common; obviously, seem to be a fundamental feature of the state, but so do the mantis beings, and as you say, they are universally almost described as much more powerful or much more intelligent, um, seem to often described as like alien doctors or alien surgeons; they seem to be much more powerful, um, much more knowledgeable, uh, and have a an entirely different kind of intent to the, the elf-like being. The elf-like beings are all about showing you things, having fun, you know, taking that opportunity when you are there to kind of show you what's possible when you let them do their thing, whether it's showing you fractal eggs of nine dimensions or things like that, or singing impossible objects into existence, as Dennis McKenna used to describe it, um, but the the mantis beings are of a completely different uh, order, uh, and that's fascinating, right? You know, if you think about the way that we imagine—if you look at a mantis, just a regular mantis—it has that, it has this slightly—it's the closest insect to a human, and yet it seems entirely alien in a sense. If you wanted to imagine an alien being, a mantis would be a pretty good approximation, you know, these big, and these very, in these big, this triangular head and the massive eyes, the—it looks like if you're an insect or even a small bird, you're, you're careful when you're around a mantis, right? And you've seen videos of them devouring heads. I mean, these are brutal creatures, um, and when you meet them in this space, again, the mantis, they, they have that quality uh, in that they are, you know, incredibly intelligent and technologically sophisticated, and they're, their purpose is not just to show you things, but to do things to you—neurosurgery, and incredibly sophisticated neuro-psychosurgery, um, and, and that is reported again and again, even people who have no familiarity with um, the lore, so to speak, of DMT will very often find themselves in the land of, of the mantises. Actually, a Korean guy emailed me last year; he, he went on an Ayahuasca trip uh, to Peru, and he was, he was hoping to meet, you know, the Great Mother Ayahuasca, or he was hoping for some wonderful healing journey. I shouldn't laugh, because he was terrified when he, when he emailed—we actually spoke for a couple of hours on Zoom; he wanted me to kind of calm him down a bit, because he said, you know, "I was, I was hoping for a healing experience, and I got the complete opposite. I was instantaneously transported to this, through this geometric, alien, symbolic tunnel-type place uh, into this domain where these, what you called them, alien doctors, and they were, they were insects—they were mantises, very large insect-like beings—uh, but they were very malevolent. I mean, they weren't just cold or methodical or clinical, um, they were, to him at least, they were um, very malevolent, and they were actually harvesting—he felt like his soul uh, had been um, harvested; he felt like they were taking his soul from him. He tried to fight it—whether this was some kind of learning experience that he just didn't get, I don't know—and this continued over, over the duration of the retreat, you know, over three experiences; every time um, he was um, greeted by these incredibly powerful alien, insectoid doctor things that harvested his soul, uh, and he, when he emailed me, he was like, 'What do I do?' He, as far as he was concerned, um, his, his soul had been, had been removed; he'd lost it, uh, and he wanted me to kind of tell him that it was all hallucination, that it was all just a bad dream, but you know, I, I couldn't, in my right mind, tell him that. I, you know, I had to say, 'Look, I don't actually know what actually happened to you here, uh, but your experience is not entirely unusual; you, you are not guaranteed an audience with the Great Spirit of the forest, um, you, there is a real, very real possibility that you will encounter beings from the more objectionable end of the uh, of the spectrum of, of entities, and and the mantis beings certainly seem to have the potential to sit at that more uh, horrifying and objectionable and, and I dare say, sometimes quite malevolent end of that spectrum." Have you experienced any mantises, Carl?

It's a good question. I mean, I, I definitely have experienced something like a mantis, but it was also very dinosaur-like, and it was again, Syrian Rue um, combined with changa, and I always find with changa, it's like the room opens up, and, and instead of a closed-eye experience, it's like happening in front of you, and I remember just having this kind of sensation of an interspecies splicing, where I've become half-dinosaur, and I, I was making this sound, and it was—I became a Triceratops once—it was amazing! And you, and you actually have to, you have to express this sound, because suddenly you are—there's no avoiding it. I still, I still remember the sound—it's rather loud for a podcast—but I remember the sound that I had to make; it was quite disruptive to the rest of the Ayahuasca circle.

Exactly. My hunch is that I've actually, I've spliced with this being that's also munching on some DMT in a jungle, in an off, on a planet somewhere, and suddenly that, that being's looking—you know, I'm in a room in Bath, in the UK, and then suddenly—and that, that's probably getting much more of an ontological shock than I am, um, suddenly having this uh, sensation of a ginormous tail and a massive head and, and all the rest of it. So yeah, interspecies splicing! One of the things that I would say to any listeners who's, who's in the account of the mantises and the malevolence of them, first of all, you can't be sure whether they were actually malevolent or benevolent; that's, it's a terrifying, it's a terrifying state to be in, with these beings of such immense power, and to know that their power is greater than yours, and so again—

I approached it with trepidation, and being like, you know, hey, like, I don't know. But one of the things that gives me great comfort is that I still, fundamentally, in my heart of hearts and my very core, believe that God, you know, and that we contain a spark of the divine within us, which is which is our soul. Our soul nests in the home of the father, and no one can take your soul; no one can harvest your soul. Like, your soul is connected to God; it would be like like nothing can challenge God or pure love. And so I always want to remind people that that's the that's the place of refuge—is to go back to that place of faith. Like, I am here with God and in God's home, and all everything else is just kind of of trickery, because like it cannot be taken from you; it is uh it is inextricable from the essence of who we are. Which doesn't mean that bad [ __ ] can happen, but to me, that that faith allows me to journey with less fear.

And I've experienced many times, too, and this will bridge us into the the final discussion as we're kind of wrapping up on our time here, of the Angelic class of beings, you know. And there's been experiences where I've called forward Metatron—has been in like this incredibly powerful Angelic Angelic being who is just, with zero fear, almost dancing through the cosmos. But it was the size of a grand palace where everybody could come and join and dance in this in this Angelic being. In Metatron can come in, and I'll call them, and it's not reliable that I'll that'll that'll show up in the profound visual way that he that he once has, or Yeshua, or you know, Archangel Michael, or some of these archetypes that exist. I found that actually, if you intend to actually bring that energy in, it can change the dynamics of the space that you're in and offer you, you know, greater protection. So, you know, from my standpoint, I've found I never would—I was started before my journey—I was an atheist. So not only did I not believe in God, I didn't believe in the soul; I didn't believe in angels. And as time has progressed, I realize that there's a place for all of these archetypes—even kie from other different Traditions, the Buddha, the Christ, you know, the the angels and the archangels, you know. I've had started to have direct experiences, and I think many times different beings have different names, you know. Like, I'm not entirely convinced that kie is klie is not the same archetypal Force, at the very least of St. Michael, for example, right? Like, it's just the different prisms by you're looking. And I'm not saying that they're the same; I I'm not going to make any bold claims like that. But I think there's certain archetypes that exist—Angelic archetypes—that can be found in these experiences. And then there's another kind of tier of the the regular Angelic class, which might be an encounter with the Pleiades, you could call it, or just angels in general.

So what are your thoughts on the the Angels, star beings, and then this kind of Archangel all the way up to the ascended Master Level, like Yeshua level encounters? Well, I mean, I think there's no reason to think—and certainly the the experiences bear this out—that that there aren't levels of of beings, just as as there are on on Earth. There are, you know, from very small and what we would see as insignificant kind of creatures, you know, or are certainly less intelligent and powerful than us. Um, and why wouldn't that continue onwards? And so if we enter this space and we're that is clearly populated with this extremely diverse uh panoply of beings, then you would expect to see beings that are from the kind of the lower end—I don't mean that in a negative sense in any way—um, such as the elves, for example, or uh higher beings like the mantises, and then perhaps even um much higher than that. Um, and I think I think it's easy to be distracted by form. I think think I don't think that the Mantis beings in their true form are actually insectoid. Um, I just think this is how they they have to take on a form for us to experience in them, you know. We all our brain has to kind of construct a model of these beings, a representation of these beings, and sometimes they actually make that clear. There are reports of people who will say, are you really a [ __ ] insect? Uh, and they would say, no, of course not, but we appear in this form to you uh because this is the form that makes sense to you. So I don't know whether the the intelligence or intelligence is or beings within this DMT space, whether it's an expression or a fragment or different perspectives that you're seeing the same Grand vast intelligence that you Aubrey might call God, right? Uh, whether these are just the the million masks of God, um as um Cheston called it, right? And we are one of the masks of God, um and you are seeing one, you know, you might see a number of these different perspective, these different masks of God, uh but ultimately it it's all the same thing. You're just seeing different fragments, different angles, different um different shadings, different um different perspectives of the same being. And sometimes you can transcend form.

The most common types of entity encounters actually are not elves; they're not mantises, but they are um some kind of amorphous, undeniable presence of some great vast loving, normally loving uh guiding, protecting, nurturing intelligence that doesn't take on a form, but you know, oh boy, you know, is there uh uh with you, you. So I think, yeah, we can, and that's that's very much like the mother Iasa, right? Like, I mean, for me, I've encountered mother Iasa countless times; she's never appeared in form. It's a presence and a voice actually, but I've I've never I've never seen her, you know. I can't tell you what she looks like, you know. It's something far—doesn't matter in a way, like, yeah. So it's easy to get distracted by what did it look like? Well, actually, that's not so important. I think that's just kind of the interface by which we can interact uh with these intelligences. And still, at the same time, sometimes the appearance is shocking and interesting, you know, and it feels like how the hell, like, I like I remember our encounter with this being, and one of the practices that I have is sometimes I'll see beings on the periphery, and I'm interested to know your thoughts on this, Carl, but I feel like actually sometimes they'll show up on the periphery, but if you focus your attention on them and then say like, no, no, no, come like please like I would like to I'd like like this interaction to deepen, they may be somewhat disinterested, but actually if you intend and communicate with them, you can actually bring them—sometimes you have to even imagine what they looked like a little bit to bring them back in and call them back into the space if you're interested. And I remember I did that with this one blue—it was like a Blue Eagle, Dancing Native American, you know, Eagle, the Eagle wings and like a cacina face, and he was dancing out in the periphery, and I was like, and then he left; I only saw him for like a split second. I was like, no, no, no, please come back; like, I'm curious; I want to know what you have for me. And and immediately it it pulls open like it's its ma its mask and shoots this like this plasma ball of energy, and it goes—it's going right over my shoulder, but like I dodged it. I was like, whoa, like maybe I made a mistake, you know, maybe this maybe this being is like not here for for my best interest; I should have left it alone. But then what I ultimately realized—stayed, and then it just stayed in my vision, and then I went into some really heavy territory, and I stopped dodging the plasma balls, and what I could feel is it it was protecting my—as they would say—protecting my six, like protecting everything behind me. And again, that's you're out of the temporal space, so behind you doesn't really make that much sense, but I could feel that that's what that's what its intention was. Like, I called in a guardian, and so I was grateful because I felt like nothing was going to sneak up on me, like everything like he had my back. And it's really, I think, one of the interesting aspects—like there's this there's this choice—you had a choice to enter the scanner. I remember my mother had this, you know, had the spaceship come land and these Angelic, you know, Angelic star beings come and usher her in, and she was like, no, I'm not interested; I'm looking for Angels. And these like Star beings in this beautiful ship were like asking her to come in; she's like, no, no thanks, I'm here for the angels. And I'm like, Mom, come on, you know, go in the ship, see what's going to happen there. But uh but ultimately there's this kind of interactivity that is—again—level one, I think, is just witness and allow surrender; you're not an active player in the space. And then as you get more experience, you can start to interact and make choices that are that are really profound and interesting and can enrich the experience.

I think one of the key things to think about is like Tula—a Tula is a Tibetan thought form, like, you know, we we may have imaginary friends when we're young. Uh, an egregor is multiple tus, so this is like your religion. So if I say Christ Consciousness, it has so many connotations because it's its own thing; it's it's sentient, you know. We've given it sentience, you know, because we've had encounters, partly because, you know, we're we're picking up on it. But I think, you know, we are world builders; we have become gods in the sense that we, you know, we create these these these presences because we are multitudes, as Andrew says; we're, you know, why wouldn't there be such a a cosmos of of entities and things that protect us and things that maybe test us? But I think it's all, you know, it's it's, you know, everything's there for, you know, for you to to learn. I think we're in this learning cosmos that, you know, I am both of us, and so are you. It's like we are we are searching. Um, it's all for you, but none of it's yours. And we're here for 1,000 months, and in that 1,000 months you better maximize your day, because if nature is right and we have this eternal recurrence, then am or fatty love your fate, because you know you may you may just have the one life over and over again, which is his hypothesis. And imagine if that's the case—imagine if each day is eternity, then you may want to make sure that you live each day as if it's eternity, as if you're going to keep coming back to perfect this this one life. I mean, Chris Chris bash's book, uh, you know, we are diamonds; the universe is a diamond-making machine, and we're just perfecting—constantly perfecting. So you know, I think that we are um experiencing different relations of light, you know. In this dimension, we're experiencing light from the sun; light is shining upon us. But when you go into DMT Realms, changa Iasa, you see light beings, light light emitting from objects. We go into the astral when we sleep, but when you doo or 5mt, you become light itself. So we're having all these different relations with light when we're in these different dimensions, but you're all of it all the time. But isn't it fascinating that the COI tribe, you know, they choose their Shaman, and they keep them in the caves for even nine or 18 years, incubating potentially DMT in the dark? So it's incubated in the dark, but it's all about the light. M. Well, that's a beautiful way to wrap this conversation. I am I would say almost equally excited to just spend the time with you guys down in the facility and and share stories and the Fireside Chats and the Integrations and and all of that, um and just really applaud you guys for for your efforts and your contributions to this space, which is near and dear to my heart.

And if um if anybody is interested in contributing to the nonprofit that's kind of supporting this um where can they go? How can they contribute? Yeah, so news.org, as you said, they can go there and express their interest. Um uh we we have a sign-up form there. Um, thousands of people have already signed up. Um, and if they're interested in the retreat specifically and want to go to the island um and experience this 56-day retreat with DMTx, potentially other molecules, uh they can go to ucis mind e l s i mind.com, uh and they can also sign up there. Um, of course, if they're interested in my work specifically, they can find me on Twitter, alien insect. Um, they go to my website, alieninsect.net. Uh, if they're interested in learning how psychedelics um actually change and the structure and dynamics of your world, they're interested in learning about the Neuroscience of psychedelics, they can read my my my book, um Reality Switch Technologies: Psychedelics—Tools for the Discovery and Exploration of New Worlds. And I've got a new book coming out in July actually, Death by Astonishment, which is all about DMT and and science's struggle to make sense of this remarkable molecule, forward by my good friend Graeme Hancock. Uh, so that's something to look forward to. Um, yeah, I think that cover amazing—amazing. How about you, Carl? So yeah, I'm I'm very much involved in cyberdelics, so check out Cyberdelic Nexus. This is really—and I was talking to uh uh various people about like utilizing technologies like virtual reality—sound is another one—in combination with these different medicines to really help prepare. Uh, surrender tech is one thing I call it. So a lot of people with 5-MeO, they don't know how to let go because it's not it's not a cognitive act; it's an embodiment; it's it's an embodied act. So I don't know if you've ever tried Ricky's planking experience, which is a VR game where you go up in a hotel, and then you the doors open, and then you have to walk the plank over the New York skyline, and everyone's like—even—and you add you add an actual plank on the floor, so you're actually really tricking the brain into thinking that you're on the plank, even though you know you're on the floor, you you you know you're you're terrified, uh and you know, ultimately you fall off the plank, but it's a brilliant way of letting go. Um, and so cyberdelics is a big part of my work, also the Museum of Consciousness, which is based at Oxford, where we featured John Hopkins in our first show; it's all about sound and Altered States, so that's the.org. And uh yeah, just uh I'm a DJ, into being on Instagram, check me out there. But yeah, my whole world is about exploring Consciousness through every avenue, so I'm really like looking at different non-drug Altered States. Holot Technic is another part of my work, and Hyperhumanism—how do we counteract this this completely absurd idea that we're going to be um you know, installing whatever technologies into our into our brains? I think, you know, this is where I really where we we jousted a little bit at teing him, thanks to Anton Bilton, me and me and me and Andrew, because, you know, I really think that um you know we're we're here to be human, and of course we can live in a DMT realm; I think we should just visit DMT Realms rather than live there. I think these substances are doorways, not homes; you we're here to have a human experience, so let's make sure that we don't go down the Neuroscience of transhumanism, because a lot of transhumanism is this idea that we're going to upload our Consciousness in this post-biological realm. I I quite like my body; I'd like to actually get more into the body. I think the biggest journey is from the head to the heart, and that takes a lot of time, and it takes a lot of effort. And yeah, we don't know what Consciousness is, guys, so how do we upload it? And also, I think that opens the door to—I don't believe in hell, but I believe that we could create it if we were able. CU what is hell? Hell is a place where you're alone, and if we allow the technology where we could put our Consciousness—you know, talk about life and life in prison—well, you could have an eternal solitary confinement in some artificial in some artificial realm. So I think I'm with you 100%, hyperhumanism. I'm keeping all these things out of my brain because I'm I'm you know I'm not looking forward to to my death; I want to look forward to my life. But um I I trust that the next go-round is Guided by a higher power, so I'm I'm with you. I love the term hyperhumanism, and thank you so much, guys; this has been absolutely, you know, one of my favorite conversations. So and I'm really looking forward to see uh how we can collaborate and journey and uh and see what comes of it in the future. So thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Wy. Thanks for tuning in to this video; make sure you hit subscribe; follow me at Marcus; check out the Aubrey Marcus podcast, available everywhere, and leave a comment; let me know if this video resonated or what else you would like to hear from me in the future. Thank you so much.