Transcription
team sometimes. Sometimes she doesn't. OK.
ALISON: OK. It's so silly, but it's the truth. You get pissed with me when I go to the bathroom.
- People, stop.
- Stop.
ROD: Sorry. So you sound angry.
No, I was angry last night. But why are you angry right now?
I'm not. Why do you sound angry?
[SIGHS] Because I'm pissed off. Sorry. I am.
So you are angry.
I'm mad that I acted that way last night.
ORNA: You're mad at yourself?
Correct. Why are you then speaking angrily to Rod?
Because I project everything on him. OK. Let's try to work on that.
ROD: We've both been in therapy individually, but not as a couple.
ORNA: I see. So this is a new conversation.
Yeah. And it's certainly one we've spoken about, what, the last couple of years, like, we should have therapy. It'd be good for us. And then we haven't done anything about it.
Mm-hmm. We have a 10-year-old daughter who's absolutely divine and awesome. But when she sees Mom and Dad arguing and fighting, she has become the moderator. And that's not fair of us to do that to our daughter, so that's why we're here.
Yeah. Did you prepare that? Because that was really good.
No, I did not. OK. So we're older parents.
Mm-hmm. And our daughter addresses that like, Mommy, Daddy, you guys are, like, so old. Like, why? What happened.
- We're not so old.
- No, in comparison to her friends.
Yes and no, 'cause everybody's mixed.
- That's true.
- It's different. In the city, it's different.
It is. Are you in the middle of an argument right now?
- I don't think so.
- No. I don't think so.
No. No.
- I think when you see it--
- Yeah.
--you'll probably know it. No, I'm just curious about the tone.
Oh, I have a tone. I mean, that's-- You both sound like you're almost there.
OK, and this is how it's always been.
Mm-hmm. It's always been.
ALISON: We have no patience for each other, I hear it.
See? That's true. Absolutely. And in the apartment, when it escalates and that becomes loud, I mean, that's-- I mean, I'm more one to try to take a deep breath.
ORNA: Mm-hmm. And then Alison's one to be a bit more vocal.
- OK, OK.
- What? I think you need to be a little honest.
What? In the last couple of years, you have really shown a different side that I never saw when I first met you.
OK. You don't have any patience for Skylar or myself.
I have patience for Skylar. So tell me, what are the problems?
ROD: I mean, everyone's going to say this. Finance is often a big part of the conversation. I'm working. Alison's not.
ORNA: You work. You're at home?
Yes. I was in the fashion industry. And then we had a-- a child, and I realized that I wanted to be around.
Mm-hmm. But I think I'm resentful also, because I left my job and like, my career as identity. And now that my daughter is older--
Mm-hmm.
ALISON: --I'm questioning myself now and-- and doubting myself. Yeah. I've had a lot of hardship throughout these last couple of years.
So be more specific. My dad passed last summer.
Oh. What happened with your dad? My dad was diagnosed with dementia.
ORNA: Mm-hmm. Whoa. And then--
You're saying whoa. Whoa, meaning-- meaning-- there's just a lot of-- there's a lot of layers to that.
ORNA: I'm sure. And since all of this happened, did things get worse between the two of you?
Yeah.
ORNA: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, communication is broken down. I mean, right now we're kind of in good behavior. I mean, it's funny because the world sees us as best buddies, which we are.
ORNA: Mm-hmm. But then we're also arch enemies. So what happens? Alison has zero patience. At a dime, you know, her patience is gone.
Does that sound like you?
Yes, and I'm working on that. Absolutely. Yeah. But it's kind of a behavior that I've learned for so long.
Interesting.
ALISON: Yeah.
- Learned from whom?
- My father.
ORNA: Mm-hmm. Meaning your dad--
ALISON: My whole-- my whole life.
--would flip like that?
Mm-hmm. But, I mean, how many times have you threatened divorce?
Often. I'm not gonna lie.
What does that do to you?
It just-- I just-- it further makes me kind of, you know, turn down my volume. It's like, OK, I'll be more quiet. I won't say anything, you know, protect my-- myself emotionally. Yeah. But it's always what I do. It's the pointing fingers. It's Alison, you know.
Mm-hmm. I think I am very disconnected right now with where I am in my life--
Mm-hmm.
ALISON: --and where I want to be in my life.
Mm-hmm. And I look to him to give me something, and it's not there.
ORNA: Yeah. Today we seemed OK. Yesterday we weren't OK. Yesterday wasn't good. Yesterday was a shit show.
It was. Today wasn't but yesterday was. You were really bananas.
I was extremely stressed out, and I took myself out of the situation. I've never done that before.
Remove yourself?
ALISON: Nope. It's like you shit and walked away.
I did shit, but you also were not with me the entire day yesterday, which was so difficult.
ORNA: So, Rod, describe it from your perspective.
ROD: I finished work. I was sitting and watching the news. And within 30 seconds, you came in. I mean, it was screaming, like this close.
ORNA: Screaming, saying-- Did you take the dog out? You know, did you-- did you contact the office? I had to do something. And then you did walk away. But the feeling-- the kind of upset you brought within three seconds didn't go away from me. I'm glad you took yourself out of the picture. But it didn't go away for--
ROD: For me, it didn't go away. You'll scream at me if she doesn't go to the bathroom. I can't-- Because you need to walk her. I'll walk her around the block 15 times sometimes. Sometimes she doesn't go.
- So OK--
ALISON: OK. OK. This is so silly but it's the truth. You get pissed with me if she don't go to the bathroom. People, stop.
Sorry. So you sound angry.
No, I was angry last night.
ORNA: But why are you angry right now?
I'm not. Why do you sound angry?
[SIGHS] Because I'm pissed off. Sorry. I am.
So you are angry.
I'm mad that I acted that way last night.
ORNA: You're mad at yourself?
Correct. Why are you then speaking angrily to Rod?
Because I project everything on him. OK, let's try to work on that. First of all, why don't you say something to Rod about that right now?
OK. I'm sorry for my behavior last night. But I am so frustrated, and I need for you to start communicating something. Because I think I feel very overwhelmed with a lot. And then when I say to you something-- I even made a funny joke. I mean, I did say-- make a funny joke with you today. I said, so when are we going to have sex?
And what did you say?
- I said, soon. And walked away.
Well, it was the middle of my work day. I was in between meetings.
- I don't know. Somebody else would have been like, right now. I don't know. I'm sorry.
So what-- what would you-- first of all, you apologized. Great. Do you accept the apology?
Yeah, I do. Just don't do it again ever in your whole life. I'm kidding.
- As long as I live?
ROD: As long as you live.
ORNA: So let's-- let's kind of rewind, like, a few minutes before you got in Rod's face.
Mm-hmm. And let's imagine how you could interact with Rod in a way that would give you something of what you need. How could you ask for--
I just would love him to ask me--
What could you do--
ALISON: Yes?
--to get what you need? I could have easily walked over to him and given him a hug or a kiss and said hi.
Sounds like a good start. Do you ever just come and give me a hug?
ORNA: No, I'm not talking about what he's going to do. I'm trying to give you options for what you can do.
ALISON: Mm-hmm. OK. Did you say that you do not or do you want to talk about sex?
Oh. [LAUGHTER] Oh, I'm not opposed to anything at this point.
OK. And you?
It's part of the, you know, conversation, so it's silly to avoid it. So how are the two of you doing? Are you--
ROD: We're not intimate. Not intimate at all. Not for a while.
ALISON: Oh, my god. Oh, my god, I'm having a heart-- now I'm having-- yeah.
ORNA: What? What's this?
- Yeah. No, I mean, I'm just going, oh, my god. Yeah.
ORNA: Oh, my god what?
Oh, my god, we're not.
ORNA: OK. We're not. OK. Does one of you want more than the other?
- Me all the time.
- OK. All right. So you're holding the flame. And you? Do you want to get sexually involved with each other again?
Yeah.
ORNA: Yeah. Mm-hmm. What would be the best way for that to happen?
For me, it's calmness and kindness, I mean, the two words that come to mind. When we were screaming and yelling and screaming at each other, there's no-- there's no desire to want to be physical.
Mm-hmm. Maybe I bruise easier when it comes to verbal-- verbal attack. I'm going to remember things and maybe you don't. If I scream you, maybe you don't. I don't know. But I do feel--
- But you do. You know about yourself.
Yeah, I just feel like I do. And with that kind of bruising effect, I don't really want to be intimate.
Mm-hmm. ROD: And last night-- again, back to last night, I didn't trigger you. Something else triggered you before you were in the house. But you-- this is so sad to say, but like, you've become my dumping ground.
Me too. And then you wonder why I'm not intimate. But then you wonder why I'm not intimate.
No, no. But see, but this is what you do and this is what makes me upset. I'm turned off when you're like that. You're turned off when I'm big and explosive. I get that. But there is two dynamics here that are not working Or a certain kind of thing that's working too well, which is that you withdraw, you approach, you punish by withdrawing, you approach with rage. It's too fixed. It works too well.
Correct. We're stuck.
ORNA: Mm-hmm. We're stuck in a pattern that is so unhealthy for both of us. It's almost like a substitute, like you're treating-- you're substituting the nutrients of connection, passion, pleasure, with bickering.
Correct. Mm-hmm.
ORNA: So can I ask each of you-- you, Alison, with like, reducing or trying to eliminate the bruising--
Mm-hmm.
--and you with increasing intimacy, both physical and verbal, emotional?
Mm-hmm. I think that would do wonders--
ROD: OK.
--if you each take that on.
ROD: OK
[GENTLE MUSIC]
I feel like the last week or two, you've been kind of avoiding me.
I have. Here we go. OK.
ALISON: OK. Was that easy?
ROD: I mean, it's--
ALISON: Yeah, I have. When you live in a two bedroom apartment in Manhattan and your wife disappears for a three-hour dog walk, you know, for a few days consecutively, you know, there's definitely an issue. We've not addressed it until now.
So tell me how it affects you.
ROD: Well, I was obsessing, you know. My mom's in town from overseas, and I was conscientious of how I was behaving around my mom. Because I felt like Alison thought I was babysitting. You got upset with me, like, you know, making her a cup of tea, and can't she do it herself, and stuff like that.
I can make my mom a cup of tea. Don't.
ALISON: OK.
- Don't.
ROD: The timing felt a bit curious that my mom's here, and then she disappears for three hours, two days in a row or whatever the case was. And Alison keeps on telling me, communicate, communicate, talk, talk, which is like, a mantra. And yet she's, you know, done some disappearing acts the last week or so. So I'm not quite sure-- obviously, she's nodding her head, so there's something.
No, no, no. No, I'm just listening. I'm listening.
ROD: OK. But you're not just listening. You're making notes?
ALISON: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
What do you mean, absolutely? No, absolutely, I'm making notes and I'm processing what he's saying.
No, but you're shaking your head, so you're--
Oh.
ORNA: In your body language, you're conveying disapproval despite trying to keep it in. So--
Sure.
--listen without voicing an opinion. OK. But in Alison's absence, you're filling the blanks with the idea that there's a lot of judgment.
Yes. Yeah, I am. That's correct. It sounds-- even though you're not saying it, but correct me if I'm wrong-- it sounds like you were missing her being more involved.
Yeah, I was. That's correct. That's correct. Yeah.
ORNA: Mm-hmm. When noticing that you want her to be back in, what do you do?
I don't think I didn't do anything. When this happened this week, I just let her come back. Just, I think I just went with it. I didn't want to kick up a stink, so I just let it be.
Right. Kicking up a stink is not a good idea.
ROD: Right. But there might be other things you can do.
ROD: Mm-hmm. But you know what, Rod? It's your mother. It's not my mother. It's my mother-in-law. I would love to see her, but I don't have to hang out with her 24/7. This is an opportune time for me to have time for myself. And I got to tell you something. I like it a lot.
Mm-hmm. I didn't intentionally leave the house saying, I'm taking hours. The weather was beautiful. I had the dog. I didn't need to be anywhere.
- Mm-hmm. You know, like, there was not even a care, like, in my head to think, oh my god.
ORNA: But it's interesting that when Alison is not filling the space--
ROD: Mm-hmm.
--the first thing that comes to mind is you're being criticized or punished.
Yeah. That's good for you to think about that and say, hmm, I wonder if that's really happening or is that my automatic assumption?
Got you. And then it sounds like you were also missing Alison. So ask yourself, how do you make something happen? Not by way of kicking up a stink, but by way of being inviting.
Right. But you filled in the blank with the feeling of conflict--
Mm-hmm.
ORNA: --that something's not going well. So that makes me think that you might unconsciously be baiting Alison to come in--
Mm-hmm.
--create conflict, create turmoil, so that you're not left with those feelings.
Interesting. OK. So I think the more Alison leaves space open for you to come in, I want you to be observing of your own process.
OK. Like, what kind of interpretations are you making of this empty space?
Mm-hmm. And then think, what do I want? And how do I make that happen?
That's serious homework.
Mm-hmm. I guess that brings us back to when you say, like, what is I feel and what is I want?
Sometimes I'm just don't know or I'm not in tune.
- Great.
- OK.
- That's fine.
- Mm-hmm. Just wait. Ask yourself. Give yourself time. Go for your own dog walk.
[CHUCKLES] Before, I was just on a treadmill by myself, thinking that I was going to be saved by my therapist, or my medication, or friends, or life.
ORNA: Mm-hmm. And now I'm actually doing the work to make us better. Internally.
ALISON: Yes. Mm-hmm. Did something happen in your life to give you the anger?
- Yeah, my dad.
- OK.
ALISON: It was easier to distract than deal. Like, scream, put down, than just dismiss? Dismiss and then come back with, is everything OK? Like, a whole-- like, could be an hour or two later and--
It's like Jekyll and Hyde.
No, I mean, that's--
- OK. But when you say that to me--
- Yeah?
--that starts with me getting angry. Like, that-- So rather than get angry-- And I don't want to get angry.
- Right.
- So I'm gonna-- So why don't you explain to Rod in a way that is kind--
OK. OK.
--what makes you angry about it. The Jekyll and Hyde comment, you used to say to me when we were first together. And now that I am working on that and more aware of it than ever--
- Mm-hmm.
--it's very hurtful to me. It doesn't feel good when you say that.
OK. I-- I'm-- I thought that was great, that you could like, really say it in a way that is very easy then to take in.
Yeah. I mean, that was big for me.
ORNA: Yeah. 'Cause I could have just blew up and flipped out.
Right, which would do--
- Slim and nothing.
- Yeah. Well, I get there, and I think of you while that's happening. I am definitely catching myself at times to take a moment. You seem to be interrupt less, which is great. Because that used to be a passion of yours. So I think you really think about thinking before you talk.
And what about you?
It's made me more conscientious as well, of course, of my actions.
ORNA: Of what?
I mean, like, being more involved in the conversation and not stepping back in the conversation, which invites you to then go for my jugulars, and then we retreat.
That's great.
ORNA: Mm-hmm.
ALISON: I want you to be you. I need me to be me. I need to respect you instead of trying to fix you.
I'm not broken. That's not how I view you. But you said, I don't want to fix you. So I said, what is there to fix? It's an interesting thing to pause on. OK. Because I think Rod is saying something to you about the message he's getting from you--
Mm-hmm.
--meaning what Image are you sending each other.
Correct. Today was a better day.
Yeah, it was. We were supportive of each other. Today was definitely a better day.
Describe. Like, you giving me a kiss last night before we went to sleep.
You know?
- Mm-hmm. What did it-- how did it affect you?
I felt calmer.
ORNA: Mm-hmm. It was that little of a-- of something that made me feel calmer.
Mm-hmm. I just know that I had to back off--
Mm-hmm.
--and stop being so overbearing. And I realized that it makes a huge difference when I am calmer--
ORNA: Mm-hmm.
ALISON: --for everyone. Without doubt. And I'm heard instead of barking, because it was easier to do that than deal. It's like my dad.
Mm-hmm. And Rod, I was curious. Who did you talk to more at home as a child?
My mother.
ORNA: Mm-hmm. My dad was always-- always there, but always very reserved, very quiet. Not much of a speaker at all. And that used to be-- make my mom actually pretty infuriated. Like, she wanted--
- Him being that way?
Yeah. Like, she wanted more conversation.
Sure. And it just didn't happen, so I guess there wasn't-- that was always a rift between my parents.
Yeah. ROD: Yeah. I've got my mom's anxiety and my dad's reservedness.
Great. Or the pattern that you're familiar with is that pattern.
Yeah. How did you feel when you would watch them that way?
Certainly sad. I remember there was a time-- we triggered it. I just had a-- a quick memory. My father was from Los Angeles. My mom's from London.
- Mm-hmm. I remember going back to California to visit my grandparents, probably when I was maybe about our daughter's age, like, 8, 9, 10, and my parents having some kind of big blow up argument. And I just-- I ran out of the house. And I remember distinctly walking down the Hollywood Hills by myself. And I just had to disengage from the kind of, you know, toxicity that was going on.
Did you have any wishes? Like, I wish Dad would blah, blah blah, or I wish Mom would--
Not really. But when my parents finally did get divorced, I was probably late teen-- no, late teens or early 20s. And I was actually relieved because I felt like the marriage was off tracks.
Yeah. I remember the action of me running out of the house and like, no, don't do it. Like, you want to cover your ears and like, enough! Like, no more shouting! No more screaming!
Yeah. I mean, our daughter's done that sometimes. I just don't want her to witness what we witnessed with our parents.
What do you need from Alison?
Kindness. Respect.
- Respect.
- She does--
How do you mean? I mean, she's always been incredibly supportive. I mean, my career throughout the marriage, always, I mean, I wouldn't be where I am without her, so I praise her immensely.
Can you say that again, please?
[CHUCKLES] No, you've given me-- But those are the-- but those are the things that are so important--
the recognition.
- No, absolutely. You've given me--
Recognizing you?
Yeah. But what's happening right now is you're interfering--
Yes.
--with Rod's ability to try to figure out what he wants.
You're absolutely right. So I'm just going to sit here and behave.
No, I want to.
- Don't just sit here. I want him to talk.
Don't just sit here. Listen.
ORNA: Listen and see how you can invite more from Rod. Don't just do nothing.
OK.
ORNA: Try to do that. Mm-hmm. Alison's personality is, you know, bold. And we're kind of-- you know, she's-- I guess we have this balance. I'm more refined, and she's louder, and it's-- you know, it's an attraction.
ORNA: Mm-hmm. But sometimes it overtakes me, so I guess I've chosen to put myself kind of on the back seat, you know, within the relationship. And, yeah, so that's it.
ORNA: But are you saying, Alison, I want you to continue to take a front seat, and be loud and dominant in our relationship?
I want that. No, I guess what I'm saying is I want evenness, you know, 50/50.
- How? How do you want Alison to--
ROD: To let me--
--contribute in that? To have a moment of patience. Let me open my mouth and, you know, construct my thoughts and feelings without interrupting.
ORNA: OK, good. So what did you hear Rod say?
That I need to give him time--
ORNA: Mm-hmm.
--to talk.
ORNA: Mm-hmm. And I will give you time.
Mm-hmm. Do you want to say more?
Thank you. No, I feel like this process has given Alison awareness, and me as well. Of course, I will own it as well.
- But-- but--
- What?
But it's giving me-- I guess-- I guess I just wish--
ROD: Yeah?
--that it wasn't I know it's giving Alison. How do you know that It's giving me enlightenment?
I said awareness. But I'm just saying, how do you know that reaction that I'm getting, awareness?
- Oh, I don't. It was an assumption.
- No, I'm just-- I don't. I understand that, but that's what we do. We assume. We don't listen.
You assume I'm having enlightenment.
- OK.
- And what are you having? What just happened here?
I don't know. Alison got really upset, and I couldn't figure out what triggered her.
- Uh-huh. I don't know. I saw red lights. I don't know.
- What? I just saw red-- it's a trigger.
ORNA: What is a trigger? The trigger is him going, Alison, she-- you know, like, it's-- I feel like he always--
Talking about you.
ALISON: Always about me.
- OK. It's about me. It's about me. It's about me. And I want it to be about him--
ORNA: OK.
--also
ORNA: Right. So that's what we're trying to work on. Right? So if you want it to be about him--
ALISON: I need to listen.
--be a better listener.
ALISON: Yes. And don't pass the ball. OK. And I need to own my-- own my space.
ORNA: Own your space.
- Mm-hmm. That was brilliant. I never heard you ever say that.
Just made it up. It was really good.
ORNA: Mm-hmm. It was. I actually like him right now.
Mm-hmm. Is that what happens?
Yeah. I like you better today than I've liked you in the last, like, three or four weeks.
Why, because I'm owning my space?
- Like, this minute.
- OK. Because you actually talked.
Mm-hmm.
[GENTLE MUSIC]
ROD: We had another blowout argument about the dog.
ORNA: I want to hear it.
- At lunchtime, I--
- It's silly.
- --take her out at 2 o'clock--
- Yeah.
--thereabouts. And if she doesn't go to the bathroom, she doesn't go to the bathroom. I can't make my dog go to the bathroom, as you know. You have Nico.
ALISON: But, yes, you have to keep walking.
Yeah, but you have to keep walking--
ROD: I had a meeting.
- --until she goes.
ROD: --and Alison came back, and she was really upset with me the dog didn't go to the bathroom. It's just lazy.
ROD: It's not lazy.
- It is lazy.
ROD: That is not lazy.
ALISON: Rod. Rod. You know she doesn't always go. So what-- this is like, a good example. So the repeating over and over, each of you the same position, is not productive.
ALISON: Nope. Not at all.
ROD: No, it's not. Not at all. Not at all.
ORNA: So what needs to happen beyond you saying I'm upset that she didn't go, you should have stayed longer, and you saying I did what I could, I'm not responsible for her bladder?
Mm-hmm. What else could be said?
ROD: I mean, it's kind of ridiculous, talking about taking the dog out and doing number one and number two. On the flip side, we've got a dear friend who's--
ALISON: OK, OK.
--terminally ill, and that's serious life. And we're arguing over a freaking dog shit. I mean, it's kind of stupid when you think about it.
ORNA: Mm-hmm. Do you want to say something about this friend and how you're both feeling about it?
Yeah, I really tear up. I've definitely got some right now, so that's pretty rare for me to do that. She's not going to be here long.
[SNIFFLES] It just puts everything in perspective--
Mm-hmm.
--on how quick life could be right in front of you and how--
Mm-hmm.
--how fast life can be taken away.
Mm-hmm. I don't have many close friends. And in recent years, I've lost three close friends, and every so often they kind of come up on me.
My god. It's OK. You could feel it. It'd be so good for you to cry.
Ooh. It's OK. That's OK. It's OK.
[CHUCKLES] It's OK to feel, honey. You have so much inside. You could let it out.
He's trying to. OK, I should shut up. Well, that's the thing. That was a lot of--
Loss.
Yeah. I guess I haven't had much time to digest, but it's pretty heavy last week.
Mm-hmm. We touched some pretty serious issues.
ORNA: Yes. It's hard to know how to be present to someone dying or anything else. I thought that was really important.
- I want to be present.
- Mm-hmm. Because you lose-- you miss so much when not being present.
Exactly. ALISON: But I really honestly have to tell you, this has really made a huge, huge change.
Mm-hmm. I didn't realize how much help we needed. I didn't realize how much we hurt each other.
Mm-hmm. ORNA: So I think it's important for you to fully take in, which I think you have over the course of our work, that you're jumping in is blocking Rod from expressing himself. That does not absolve Rod of understanding that you're relying on that and hiding in that. And it's very easy for you to invite Alison to do that for you and bypass your own work.
Mm-hmm. You know, I need to take that, like, obsession and obsessiveness away from things that are out of my control.
Mm-hmm. It's the unknown, and I never was able to like, be OK with that. It was a control thing.
- Mm-hmm. No, it's true. You can be overpowering. The fact you're noticing you can take a deep breath is allowing me maybe to open my mouth somewhat.
I'm not criticizing you. I'm praising you.
No, no, but I'm not-- but I'm not criticizing you either. But why does it have to be what I'm doing dictates how you're going to be? It makes me angry--
Mm-hmm.
--to like, almost want to say something back to you.
First of all, wonderful that you're not just reacting, but you're reflecting.
Mm-hmm. That's very different.
Mm-hmm. ORNA: Like, in that, you hold a lot of power to change a lot of the dynamic between the two of you.
Thank you. ORNA: It's great. Thank you. I can't do this alone. I need for-- no, I don't want to-- I want to-- I don't need for you.
Nice. Because that's going-- looking at me going-- giving me the eyeballs like, don't start.
ORNA: Mm-hmm. Don't tell him what you need.
Mm-hmm. OK.
[EXHALES SHARPLY] Where are you, Rod? No, I respect what Alison said. That makes sense, that I do sometimes project on her to maybe deflect from me.
Mm-hmm. ALISON: Last week you were feeling it, and all of a sudden you let your guard down. I liked that.
Good. The more you let your guard down, the less Alison will need to come after you, the less you fill in, the more you'll have space to speak--
- Do your thing.
- Mm-hmm.
ORNA: Do your thing. Yeah. It does-- it does feel like, in our apartment and our life, it does feel like there's a new level of calmness, which is-- which is great.
ORNA: Yeah, Absolutely. But we have to maintain it, because we're going to have relapse. We know that. Last weekend we did, and it's-- but the fact that we're conscientious, I think, is so important.
That's good. But what if we take what you just said and try to translate it back into you.
Mm-hmm. If we work with the assumption that you're partially using Alison to find something in yourself--
Right.
--what is it? Let's go back into you. What are you saying with that?
Maybe I was, you know, hiding behind grief with anger as well or buffering grief. But are you saying that because it sounds right or do you connect with what you're saying?
No, I'm saying because it sounds right. I don't know. I'm just kind of articulating and talking out loud right now, so I don't know.
ORNA: Yeah. So what if you took a minute and tried to see if what you said about Alison pertains to you?
I think maybe I-- maybe I suppress my feelings in general without--
- Mm-hmm. Get curious about them.
Mm-hmm. I keep on dabbling with the idea of meditation. I mean, I've done that in the past.
ORNA: Mm-hmm. And then my mind is like, yeah, I should. I need to. I haven't, but it's something I'm very conscious of.
I'll do it with you. I'll go. Let's go.
ROD: You don't have to go anywhere. You don't have to go anywhere.
No, but I'm just saying, like, I would even--
ROD: You can sit on a toilet and do it.
ORNA: Alison. Sorry. Right.
ROD: It's a personal thing. I mean--
Why are you going in there? I don't know.
[CHUCKLES] It's just I see it all, which I guess frightens me right now. And the fear is-- Being able to come out on the other side and be content what the other side is. I don't know. I don't know. Is that OK too?
- Yeah. Like, the unknown right now.
Mm-hmm. I think everything that I've learned in all these weeks of therapy and everything, this has come full circle. And now I'm sitting here with my husband, where I know that we're going to be OK.
Mm-hmm. So maybe I should go sit on-- like, over here.
ORNA: How about that?
- Can I give you a kiss? That's it. We're done. We gave each other a kiss.
ROD: [LAUGHS] [LAUGHS]
[UPBEAT MUSIC]