School

Thanks for joining us. My name is Micah Freeze. If you're new to the Exchange with Ed Stzer, for the next half hour, we're going to discuss truth, thoughts, and theology. On today's show, we're going to be talking about spiritual formation and following the will of God with Dr. John Orberg. He's the senior pastor of Menlo Church in the Silicon Valley area of California. He's a graduate of Wheaton College. He has a doctorate in clinical psychology from Fuller Seminary, where he now sits on the board. He's the author of many books, the latest of which is All the Places to Go, How Will You Know?

Before we get to their conversation, let's hear from Dr. Eric Guyger about why small groups are so important for believers. So here's what we found when we did a massive research project on small groups. This is—this was—I mean, this was fascinating, and we shouldn't be surprised because the scripture actually reminds us that we should not give up meeting together. Um, the scripture encourages us to encourage one another daily, as long as it is called today, so none of you will be hardened by sin's deceit. Jesus says that we are to be sanctified by his truth. His word is truth. And he's praying that in John 17, right after he's praying that and right before he's praying that the disciples will be one. And so we see in John 17 that Jesus wants us unified and sanctified, and that happens in community. So we shouldn't be surprised when there's research that says being in a group, being in community is going to have an impact. But here's what the data said: Those who are in a small group, as opposed to those who are not in a small group—those who are in a small group, they report that they confess their sins more frequently. They give more generously. Um, they share the gospel more regularly. They serve more sacrificially, much more so than those who were not in a group.

And so after this massive research project on groups, we just—you had to walk away from the data and say, "Here's the deal: Being in a small group, it really does. It matters. It matters. It makes an impact on the hearts of people when the small group is truly a community of people built on the foundation of who Jesus is and what he's done for us." And so, how do—how does this discipleship relate to groups? Well, just a couple of thoughts, um, when we think about truth. And so here's the—the takeaway for us from this massive research project on discipleship and on groups: Truth is, you want to be sure you feed your people. Feed your people. And this means to be sure that the content of our groups, what people study, what people ingest together and talk about together and discuss, that they're not just getting together randomly and having conversations that are at the surface level. But if we really want to see transformation happen, the content of our groups is going to take people over and over again to who Jesus is and what he's done for us. We're not going to see transformation happen in our groups if the groups are built on something that is shallow. And so we must feed our people. We must use the environment of a small group to ensure that the lives of that group intersect with the word of God that never changes. So feed your people well. So that's truth posture. Uh, even—we did the research on transformational discipleship, which was before transformational groups. We found out this: that one aspect of a posture that is teachable, a posture that is soft and moldable for the Lord is when someone is in community. You know, Dietrich Bonhoeffer once said that sin wants to have a man by himself. Sin wants us to remain alone. Sin wants us to be in the darkness and isolation, not in community. But community—the Lord uses it to mature and transform his people. So, we want to apply the truth of God to the hearts of people. Feed your people while they're in a teachable posture. And this is really groups. And so, we want to challenge you to launch groups.

And so, why—why do I want to launch new groups? Well, there's people in your church right now that are not going to get connected in community in your church unless you launch new groups. The—the groups that are already there, they feel established. It's hard sometimes to join a group that's been meeting for 18 months or for 2 years. And so as you launch new groups, you provide opportunities for people who are not yet connected to enter a posture of interdependence where they can be encouraged and challenged and cared for and loved on by other people in community. So feed your people, launch new groups, and leaders—develop your leaders. So when you think about the movement of your church, it's not truth posture—leader—as if you're the only leader. If you're the youth pastor, you—you shouldn't lead a youth ministry where everything goes back to you. If you're the senior pastor, you don't want to lead a church where all of the discipleship and transformation in that church rest on your ability. There's no such thing as an omnicompetent pastor. And so you want to develop leaders. This is what the scripture teaches us in Ephesians 4. It's actually our role as pastors not to do all of the ministry, but to equip God's people for ministry. And so, as leaders—not just a leader in a local church, but as leaders—apply the truth of the gospel to people's hearts while they're in a teachable posture, the Lord brings about transformation. And the good news is is that small groups can make a significant impact in the hearts of people as the gospel of Jesus is applied to their hearts while they're in community. So your groups, they really matter significantly. They're only going to be transformational if they're rooted in who Jesus is and what he's done. So feed your people, develop your leaders, launch new groups. Thanks.

Well, John, thank you again for coming and joining us again on another show. And I want to jump right in and talk a little about some of your areas of passion. You've written a lot of books, more than 10, uh, and—and really have those books been very influential. Um, you keep coming back to themes that have to do with personal life and discipleship. Why—why is that so important to you and why should it be important to us? Well, it's always seemed to me like the only question that really matters has to do with human beings. What's the nature of the human condition? Why are you the way that you are? Why am I the way that I am? Why is it so difficult to change? Where does God fit into that? Where does faith fit into that? Where are we headed? It's like most of the other jobs that people have and most of the other questions in life might be kind of interesting, but those are the ones that, to me, matter the most.

Interesting. Now, the newest book is All the Places to Go. Is that right? Tell us a little about why you wrote that and why does it matter? Well, it's really looking at a question that just folks obsess over, which is how do I know God's will for my life? And you know, if you're teaching someplace, if you do a seminar on that topic, that will fill up a room quicker than anything else because decision-making is so important. And we all face choices. We face real big ones. We face little ones. We get scared about them. And it's often really challenging to know what does God want me to do? So to have the chance to talk about, um, that question—how do I know God's will for my life—in the context of how do I make decisions and how do I be in a relationship with God? I was super excited about.

Okay. So tell us a little bit about that because I mean there's different approaches. Some people, you know, pray until you hear from the Lord. Pray and fast and then get specific direction. Others, it's decision-making—the will of God is sort of—you do the right thing the best way that you can. Where did you come out? Um, a fellow by the name of Dallas Willard was the most helpful guy for me. And in a nutshell, I would say, uh, you have to put the question in context. The context is this: God's primary will for your life isn't the circumstances you inhabit; it's the person you become. And once you understand that, a lot of other pieces of this question kind of fall into place. So, like with my kids, um, because my primary will is that they'd be really good kids, become really good people, um, I won't always just give them instructions and tell them move here, take this job. Um, I will often want them to choose for themselves because in having to make a decision, they develop character and maturity and judgment and discernment that they would never develop if I always just told them what to do. So, I grew up in—was a great church, which I'm super grateful for. Um, was a Baptist church, and I love that part of my heritage. Um, but I had kind of the idea that on big decisions, God was supposed to tell me what to do. And if he didn't tell me what to do, he must be doing something wrong or I must be doing something wrong. And it took me a long time to recognize God is completely capable of telling me what to do. But for very good reasons, sometimes God might not do that because his will for me might be—if you choose, you will grow as a person more than you would grow if you got a postcard from heaven telling you what to do.

Okay. Do you sometimes get a postcard from heaven telling you what to do? I don't get a postcard, but I—I—I will say this: The church where I'm serving right now, uh, again, it was a decision where I didn't feel like I was getting instructions from heaven. I had to go through the choice and pursue wisdom. I'll often tell people, you know, the main thing to aim at is aim at wisdom and trust that God's leading you in that process. After I'd been there a couple of years, I was driving down Stanford Avenue. I remember this real vividly. It was a real difficult weekend. Sometimes at churches there's hard weekends. And this thought came to me, um, "John, take your being at this church as my calling on your life. And don't waste time or energy asking if somebody else could do this job better or if there'd be another job that would be a more exciting one for you. You will grow in ways that you wouldn't grow otherwise if you just put your hand to the plow." And I've never really had an experience before where I was at a church and I felt like, yep, I think this is a specific place where God wants me to be. Um, I had that at Menlo. I had that, but interestingly enough, it didn't come when I was trying to make the choice. It came two years in when I wasn't looking for it.

So when you made the choice to go to Menlo Park, was the choice sort of—this seemed like the best thing to do, therefore it seemed to us that we should do this, or was this—I know God called me here? Uh, it was at the beginning. No, it was very much the former—is very much—I—I love the phrase in Acts 15. They're having this big debate about what we do to these Gentiles. The letter that Peter sends out is—"It seemed good." Yeah, that's sort of what I was trying to quote, but yeah, it—it—Yeah. So it wasn't this sense of clarity. Correct. But there were times—there were times in the New Testament where there was this great—the Holy Spirit said to them absolutely. So do we have those times still or are those times of the past? I believe that God is absolutely capable of doing that and that God does do that.

Okay. Another, uh, thought that was very helpful to me on this question of God and God's will for our life and interacting with God has to do with, um, can God communicate with me? And when you think about it, communication is just guiding somebody's thoughts. We're talking with each other, and because sounds are coming out of your mouth, I'm having thoughts that I wouldn't have otherwise. So that's all communication is. Um, well, because we're finite, we have to use finite means. So we have to use sounds or words on a printed page or something, because God is infinite. He can guide your thoughts without using any finite means. So thoughts can come to you, um, that are actually being guided by God. And we see this in the Bible like with little Samuel. His name's being called. He thinks it's Eli, right? And, um, Eli says, "When you hear that voice again, just say, 'Speak, Lord. Your servant listens.'" And, uh, it's actually God communicating with Samuel. But Samuel doesn't know it. And some folks will talk about the ministry of Eli. We need one another to help us to discern when might God be communicating with me. So I absolutely believe God can do that. God does do that. I think it's real important that we not abuse it. Anytime somebody says to me, "Hey, John, God told me you should do this, right?" I get real cautious.

But what do you do though? Do you just—do you discard that? Do you discount that or do you respond to it and say, "Well, let me see. Let me test that?" I mean, so because I've had people come to me—I've had a prophetic word for you or—or, you know, the Lord's told me so and so. How do you respond? I absolutely don't discard it. I think God actually, um, can and often does speak to me through another person, right? You know, there's all these illusions about it. Sometimes people think God only speaks to spiritual giants, right? And in the Old Testament, he actually communicates through Balaam's ass—famous story. So like—and if the donkey went back and said, you know, God spoke through me, so I'm superior to everybody else. Like, nope. God can speak through anybody he wants to. Um, so I think he can. However, I never assume right that just because somebody says those words that it's happening through them because again, in the Bible, a lot of times people claim to be prophets, and God didn't say they were—not indeed. I—I think one of the challenges for a lot of Christians is they hear, uh, Christian leaders maybe on—I don't know—television or wherever, saying, "Well, the Lord told me," and then it goes like three paragraphs sometimes in King James English, uh, what the Lord told them, and then they go back to their prayer life and they're like, "I'm not hearing God speak to me like that," and it becomes disheartening to them. What—what kind of hope would you give to them who—who aren't hearing from the Lord in paragraphs with specific details that God's still guiding them?

Well, first, I think it's a great point that those of us that are in leadership or see positions should be really humble about that. I think—I think one of the things we undermine the faith of our people when we say, "The Lord told me this, the Lord told me that." And we'll use that to try to leverage something or get people to do what we want them to do. And I'll generally say to leaders, if God—if you think God told you to do something, don't tell people you think God told you this. If it's God's idea, it will probably carry the day; it'll probably be a really good idea. But then I think for the average person to recognize, um, "I want to be open to the possibility that God speaks to me." Yeah. And, uh, it may not be—"Take this job" or "Marry this person." It may be—when I'm alone and, um, this thought comes—"I'm loved"—or this thought comes—"I'm not alone"—or there's another person in the room and I have a thought—"I could say something encouraging to that person." I think actually God does that. The Holy Spirit does that with people, gives guidance way more than most of us know. And so for people to actually start tuning in, it's kind of like tuning into another voice or a radio station or something. For people to work on tuning into that is a good thing. I think that communicating with God and hearing from God is learned behavior. And anybody listening to us right now can do that. And I think a great adventure lies before them. So I hope they do.

I used to say all the time, "There's a leadership problem in the church. There's a leadership problem in the church." After years of saying that, I came to realize I really don't think that's true. I keep coming back to Ephesians 4:11 and 12. And it says that Christ gave us the apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, teachers. Why? To equip. That word there—"equip"—is trained. Okay? To train. Why? So that the church can do the work and then be built up. You see, throughout scripture, what we find for the Christian is not so much that they're coming to church in order to, uh, watch others do ministry, but the reality is—in the scripture, you see, God has a holy calling on the life of every individual believer to be a missionary engaged in his purpose to redeem people from every tongue and every tribe and every nation on this planet. Yeah. Jesus took these men who didn't even know how to lead themselves. He took a group of men that were willing to follow him, and he did leadership development with them. He discipled them to the point where they just didn't have intimacy with God; they had influence with others. It's this holy cause ordained by God that we have to get. And I think as pastors and leaders, we have to understand—it's not just up to us. This equipping of these people will lead to the growth of the body, uh, to the expansion of the church, to the accomplishing of God's mission throughout the nations. I don't think there's a leadership problem in the church. I—I think there's a leadership development problem in the church.

Welcome back to the Exchange with Ed Stzer. Our featured guest today is California-based pastor and author Dr. John Ortberg. We'll have more of their discussion in just a minute after we hear about adoption from Kelly Rosati, the vice president of community outreach at Focus on the Family.

Hi, I'm Kelly Rosati, vice president of community outreach at Focus on the Family. And I want to chat a little bit today about some things I'm seeing in the church in the adoption culture. Um, it seems you can't go very far without a lot of young evangelicals talking—being very passionate about the cause of justice. And as we know from reading the scriptures, God cares so much about justice. And I think that's just a terrific, terrific trend. I think it manifests in the way we see orphan care and adoption in the church. But I do still also talk to quite a few pastors who wonder why this adoption thing is part and parcel of the gospel. They really want to be passionate about reaching their community for Christ, uh, as we all do as followers of Christ, and they just haven't quite figured out—or they've said to me—"I'm just not sure why the adoption thing connects." And so I want to talk a little bit about that and just about what we've seen at Focus on the Family from the scripture about God's heart for orphans and then what he does as we walk in faith to minister to orphans. You know, one of my favorite verses in the Bible is the verse in the Old Testament that talks about not encroaching on the fields of the fatherless because their defender is strong and will take up their cause. When I think about God's heart, his father heart for kids who don't belong anywhere, who don't have families, who don't know the love of a mom and dad, it—it moves me to tears, and it—it can help me to really, uh, think clearly about how much God loves me. I know that in my head, but I don't always get that in my heart. And I think that is something that everybody is so hungry for. And when they see adoption and when they see orphan care, they see that father's heart. Everybody knows James 1:27: "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after widows and orphans in their distress and keep oneself from being polluted by the world." 100,000 modern-day orphans who need families; 300,000 churches in the United States of America. If just one family in every third church brings one of these kids home, we will have no more waiting orphans. Imagine the testimony and the witness to the gospel of Jesus Christ that that would be. And it is so doable. Be a church that says we're going to be about the business of orphans because our Father in heaven is a Father to the fatherless.

So, John, seems like you're telling me that God doesn't, um, lead me what car I should buy or maybe I can—maybe I can do that. I mean, does he lead me to whom I should marry? Uh, does he lead me the direction I should go? I mean, how did you decide to be a pastor? Did you get up one day and say, "Huh, you know what? This seems like a good thing"? Uh, I mean, so how far do we go with—"It seemed good to us"—from Acts to our earlier conversation? I think a good rule for folks is—pray and ask God—"God, if there's something you want me to do, somebody you want me to marry, let me know." Trust that he can do that. He can put thoughts into your mind. He can have a conversation with somebody else that strikes you at a real deep level. But don't presume that he's going to do that and—and pursue wisdom. You know, in the Bible, keep coming back to that—pursuing wisdom.

Okay. Talk to us about that. Yeah. Um, there's a great verse in the book of James that says, "If anybody lacks wisdom, let them ask of God." It doesn't say—if you face a difficult decision and you don't want to have the anxiety of having to make the responsibility—the Jews—ask God to offload it. And the reality is—for me, I think a lot of times, um, I didn't so much want God's will for my life as I didn't want to have to bear the anxiety of making a difficult decision. Making choices is one of the great anxiety producers in human life. And I think one of the ways that we distort spirituality and distort faith is we want to use God to avoid anxiety. And people will often use things like prayer as more an anti-anxiety tool than actually a means of being with God, surrendering to God. And so I think when I face a difficult decision, it will be very good to talk with God about it and to say—"Now, God, if you—if you want me to marry this person, I'm wide open, and you can let me know about that." But generally, I think because God wants you to become a good person, making decisions is maybe the primary tool in character formation.

M. And so what that means is—I—I can remember asking sometimes when I was a kid like, "How do you know when you're in love?" Because I didn't hit that spot until relatively later in life. And the response I would often get is—"You just know." Yeah. "You just know." That was profoundly unhelpful to me. Yeah. And I carried a lot of kind of fantasies and a lot of immaturity around that. What would have been a much better answer is—"You have to become the world's leading expert on yourself." Mhm. "You're going to have to do a lot of work and find out—what do you value and what are you drawn to and what's the junk inside you and where are you likely to get off track and what do you admire in another person? What makes you—" And as you do that, you grow as a person, and you're able to know, love, and serve God better; you're becoming more the person that you would otherwise be. Whereas if God would have just told me—"Marry this person"—I would have bypassed all that work.

Yeah. All that work though. Who wants to do all that work? I mean, you're—you're sort of—I mean, what we—you—what you're saying is—if I—correct me if I'm wrong—is that we want to focus on who God is so he can make us who he wants us to be. And a lot of times we want to focus on what God wants. Yes. But you're telling us to focus on who God is and what he wants us to be. That's harder. And so, why is that matter? Why is that important to go that route? It's way harder, but it's way better. And I think we always—

I always tend to focus on my circumstances, and I think I want good circumstances. When you love somebody more than you want good circumstances for them, you want them to become a good person. And I got three kids. That's the main thing I want for them. When I look at that, I step back and say, "Of course, that's what God wants for me." And in my best self, when I get quiet, when I pray about that, I realize that's what I want.

It's a very interesting distinction between, um, advertisements and obituaries. You know, we all want the good life, but what's most important is becoming a good person. Advertisements are all about how do you get the good life, right? You got great hair. Got great hair, by the way. Got great clothes, good car, you know. Um, but when when somebody dies at their funeral, we never say, "Ed had great hair." That's right. "Ed wore great clothes." We talk about the kind of person Ed was. So, at the deepest level, we all know life is really about becoming the person God wanted me to be, not having the circumstances I want to have.

I noticed that, um, I talked about this Sunday that when you're by a lot of bedsides when someone's dying, particularly believers, they tend to have like a few pictures and a Bible. And so, really, when it's stripped down to nothing, that's what's left there: who they care about, uh, and and and and hopefully their relationship with the Lord. Um, but okay. So so how do you explain then? I mean, you have the the Acts reference, Acts 15 reference where, you know, it seemed good to us. Uh, which I think part of that was it wasn't as clearly binding as as as as maybe some of the other things, but there's a whole lot of very clear direction in scripture.

Absolutely. So, is that because a lot of times it says, "And the word of the Lord was sparse in those days," and would go for a long, long time? Is that just because we record the highlights, not the day-to-day, or is that was that more normative then than it is now?

Well, of course, the Bible is actually the record of the revelation of God. So you'd expect those highlights. So, by the nature of the kind of book it is, it's going to be recording experiences where God reveals himself in people's lives. It's about, um, it's special revelation, moments of revelation in the history of the human race. So people were still making decisions and based on wisdom between the end of the Old Testament, the beginning of the New. Even even if you look at Abraham's life or Moses's life, we're going to see those moments with them when they receive revelation from God.

Forty years apart sometimes.

Exactly. Yeah. Most 40 years in the wilderness before God comes back to them. And so most of their days, like most of our days, are going to be facing hundreds of choices where I want to pray, but I will have to pursue wisdom with it. So, and and it's much like with another person. You may have a particular will for my life in this moment. It's like, "John, sit in this chair, talk about this topic." But then when it comes time for lunch, you you know, "John, have whatever you want to have for lunch." So, with God, it's a personal relationship. And that's what so many people don't get is God is also a person, and we are persons, and so God wants for us to make to be choice-making.

Okay. But in saying it's a personal relationship, in a sense it seems like you're saying it's a personal relationship so get close, but you're not going to get answers when you have that personal relationship. So how is it both a personal relationship but not a guiding question?

Um, when I'm with you, you may not have a choice for what you want me to have for lunch, but if we're good friends and I say, "You know what, I just love chicken. I can't get enough chicken," you're interested in that. You're interested in the details of my life. And if I'm eating food that's really bad, you're interested in that. You'll say, "You know, John, I want you to be your best self." So, even in a friendship level, um, you may not have a direction for me, but you're going to be deeply interested and care about what I'm doing. And with God, he's always interested. He always cares. He always has something to say about stuff. So, it's not like God's just this removed, you know, abstract being who only occasionally interrupts me with a direction. God wants a continual ongoing conversational relationship with him.

And in fact, that's another huge deal about the will of God for my life. I will the whole issue of trying to pursue guidance with God will never work if my aim main aim is getting guidance from God. Okay? It only works in the context of a much larger personal conversational relationship where my relationship with God is about a lot more than finding out what job shall I take and what person. So God's not a a divine traffic cop directing us this direction or that direction. He is the source and the focus of our affection. That's exactly right. He's our God and our forgiver and our friend and our comforter. And it's in the context of all of that that guidance can make sense. But often with people, we idolize guidance because we're so afraid of making decisions.

And I'm never really asking God, "What do you want me to do in this moment?" Like right here as I'm with you right now and there's a bunch of people listening to us. I don't know what to say. I'm not adequate for that. But I can be talking with God while I'm with you and saying, "God, would you make words come out of my mouth that I couldn't bring that might help somebody listening to me right now?" and to learn to live that way from one moment to the next. That's what a life of guidance with God is really about.

For resources, books, and Bible studies mentioned in the show, be sure to visit edstetzer.com. And while there, check out past episodes or read the latest study and analysis from Lifeway Research. Thanks for joining us. We hope you'll be back with us next week.