Transcription
An exceptional guest with us this morning. Good morning Dominique de Villepin, former Prime Minister, former Minister of Foreign Affairs, alongside me, Soazic Kimner from La Tribune, and Patrick Sauce, head of the international desk at BFM TV. We have just learned that Iran has reportedly appointed a new supreme leader. In your view, what does this say about the resistance capacity of this Iranian regime? Mr. Daret, first, the catastrophe was announced and it is unfolding before our eyes. The war is spreading, it has spread in the region, it has spread in the energy, transport, and insurance sectors, multiplying the risks of global economic crises, and then it is spreading over time. We are counting the days and we can see that this war is not about to stop, and that in any case its consequences are not about to stop. And we also see that the expansion has every chance of becoming geopolitical. Indeed, we find ourselves with imperial powers playing war in a totally irresponsible manner, with the risk of activating powers like Iran and others, which risk dragging us into a kind of global Vietnam. A global Vietnam? A global Vietnam, quite simply because where does the war begin, how do we stop the risk of guerrilla warfare in Europe? Rezaï? How do we stop those who, today, are those who benefit from this conflict, even if it may seem paradoxical? Russia, with the rise in gas prices and the rise in prices of bad news for Ukraine and China, which remains an observer, a spectator of the absurdity of Western democracies, of the inconsistency of Western democracies. And I will conclude by saying that if there is one lesson, because we can comment on the images endlessly, once again, everything that is happening was predictable. The first lesson to be drawn is the powerlessness of power. You know, power cannot do everything. We want to oppose law and force, but in the end, it is always law that wins, because law was made to protect peoples, and law was made as a safeguard. I'll finish, I'll finish if you allow me. I'll finish if you allow me. Powerlessness of power, powerlessness of democratic governments. If there is one lesson to be given to the world today, it is that democracies must say what is happening, what we accept, and what we do not accept. Set a rule. And then the powerlessness of our humanity, because we are at the beginning of a new global chapter. With the development of artificial intelligence, this war was not determined by Mr. Netanyahu, nor by Mr. Donald Trump. It was determined by an intelligence signal, which created an opportunity, which made it possible to kill, to assassinate Ayatollah Khamenei in a targeted manner. And the battle that is taking place today between Anthropik and OpenAI, which is the battle to know how we are going to control artificial intelligence, shows that we are entering a world where it will no longer be men who decide the course of wars. But that the robotization of war, mass surveillance, the play of algorithms will lead us into something else. So, I am for men and women who govern this world, for men and women, for the peoples of this world to say that humanity must prevail. We are on the threshold of something that is escaping us, that is escaping Donald Trump, that is escaping Benjamin Netanyahu, that is escaping all the governments of the world. And we cannot close our eyes. You mention the time of war. Iran says it is ready for six months of war. So, do they have the means to sustain six months of war? We will see. But you know, did Vietnam have the means to defeat American power? Did Algeria have the time to defeat French power? In the end, in the end, one must never underestimate in an asymmetric war the capacity of a government. No matter how rogue it may be, to hold on. And that is where the starting point of everything is, the limits of power. Donald Trump with all his bombs, Israel with all its bombs does not hold the key, because there is a fundamental key, and that is the experience that I have been repeating day after day for 25 years in the French desert. It is that a military intervention, the use of force, when it is not accompanied by a clear political objective, and I ask what is the political objective of the United States. I know Israel's, and in this regard, the little tune is rising in the United States that this war would be Israeli, because we know what Benjamin Netanyahu aims for. He aims for security at all costs. Whether the Lebanese like it or not, whether the Syrians like it or not, whether the Iranian people like it or not. At least, that is clear, and it also leads to catastrophe. Because security at all costs, well, it never stops, it is endless war. But as far as this powerlessness of power is concerned, no political objective, failure no matter what, and including tomorrow if Donald Trump claims victory, it is written and announced in the programming of this war, which once again is a war of opportunity. In 2003, the law was an ideological war with an intellectual underpinning that of the neoconservatives. Here, it is sniffing the wind, looking at the evolution of things with wet fingers that Donald Trump has embarked on the movement to strike Iran without having any idea of what he is aiming for. There is nevertheless one certainty, and I say this for my many Iranian friends who are in despair today to see that they have both dictatorship, bombings, and perhaps tomorrow the catastrophe of the fragmentation of Iran. Well, I say that what we know is that neither the United States nor Israel intervened to liberate the Iranian people. And that is something we must keep in mind when we question the responsibility of democracies, knowing that there are always two paths. There were two paths in 2003: the path of inspections, the multilateral path that allowed us to respond to the tragedy that was the Iraqi situation. Today, there is another path than the one taken by Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu, which would have been to continue negotiations. Continue negotiations, since a nuclear agreement was possible, which would have led to the lifting of sanctions as we did in 2015, between 2015 and 2018, which alleviated the suffering of the Iranian people and undoubtedly allowed for an evolution of the regime. Because we know very well that this regime is indeed a regime of iron, but a fragile regime that does not respond to the aspirations of the Iranian people. So there is never any fatality. But where is the path for Europe? Where is the path for France? – We will come to that question of the path for Europe. – And submission. No, but I know very well that we will always come to it. I consider it fundamental to say the important things at the beginning and to distinguish the anecdote, that is to say the juicy details of daily life, from the fundamental that will change our lives, because we French will be the first to pay the bill. First, let's not forget. The United States, between them and Iran, there is an immense ocean. We are very close. And the consequences, we have already paid them through Iranian terrorism in 1983 in Lebanon. Between 1984 and 1986, we paid them in France. And we don't just pay them in terms of terrorism. We risk paying them through the economic crisis and the rise in the price of oil, which is very bad news for French citizens, and answers will have to be provided, that is Mr. Macron's duty. And then it is also very bad news, given the experience, concerning the risk of a migratory crisis. We experienced it with the Syrian crisis, we will experience it again, let's not forget. Iran is two and a half times the population of Syria, and therefore the migratory consequences risk being – Emmanuel Macron, about whom we learned a few moments ago, it was your information, that he will go to Cyprus tomorrow. You were talking about the expansion… – You allow me a digression on this subject because it is important. When there is a global crisis, when there is a global crisis, it is important to be where you should be. And if there is one place where the President of the Republic should be, it is at the Elysée Palace to coordinate action. In the same way, if there is one place where the French aircraft carrier, the Charles de Gaulle, should have been, it is in the Mediterranean, not in Norway. – It has just entered? – It has just entered with some delays. And not to participate in all of this, but to ensure the safety of our citizens and to contribute to defense actions, defense actions, I say, not at any moment any offensive participation. We all know the mechanisms of the gears. We all know how a war can spread even further. It is urgent that Europeans measure the catastrophe decided by Donald Trump and refuse to participate in it. — You mention the expansion of this conflict. We have one of our special envoys who is in Doha, Qatar. The United Arab Emirates, which have been particularly targeted, especially in recent hours. And Élise Phillips, for the first time, the United Arab Emirates would have attacked Iran in turn. Exactly, according to the Israeli channel N12, sources in Israel indicate that the United Arab Emirates would have attacked Iran. Today, they would have a desalination plant on Iranian soil. It should be known that these desalination plants are very strategic infrastructures for the Gulf countries because many countries here in the region depend largely on these plants for water. I have just consulted the various accounts, the social networks of the various ministries of the United Arab Emirates because it is through these accounts that a large part of the information is transmitted, and for the moment I have not seen any official confirmation from the country on this potential attack, but if it were confirmed, it would be major information because it would be the first time since the beginning of the conflict a week ago that one of the Gulf countries would have attacked Iran. The question has been asked for several days now, because Iran is not relenting in its pressure, targeting its neighboring Gulf countries, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, every day and several times. And so the question arises as to whether these countries, whether one of these countries would eventually retaliate. Every time there is an attack on the territory of one of these Gulf countries, the authorities recall that they are capable not only of defending their skies and their populations, but that if it continues, if it goes too far, then these countries could also choose to retaliate. Is that what happened this morning? We are awaiting confirmation, but it should also be known that the United Arab Emirates is one of the countries most affected by this conflict since the beginning, for a week now they have been attacked multiple times by Iran. Just today, the latest communiqué states that 17 ballistic missiles and 117 drones were fired by Iran at the United Arab Emirates. Thank you very much, Élise Phillips, from Qatar, with Morgane du Mont-Patrick Sauce. You who know these Gulf countries philosophically, what is this sequence changing? There was an idea of almost Switzerland in the Middle East, while geography shows us that there were only 200 kilometers between Qatar or Dubai and Iran, and we find ourselves with a war that comes to these countries and imposes itself on them. The response is graduated for the moment, but the escalation is still happening. What does it change in the minds of the representatives, ultimately? It reminds us that there is no immunity. You know, we used to call Lebanon the Switzerland of the Middle East, and we have seen what has become of it. The model of the Gulf states is shattered. It is a tragedy for the Gulf states. They bet on tourism development, on financial development. They developed the concept of regional security, and we see what remains of it. The strike that has just occurred, if confirmed, by the Emirates is an absolute stupidity. To attack a desalination plant in Iran when we know that all the states in this region depend on these desalination plants. It is an invitation for Iran to strike in turn through drones. So, if I may, Iran just struck a desalination plant? I know, but perhaps that's not where the Emirates should have struck. Because the water war is another dimension this war can take. And the result is that all the populations of this region will no longer be able to have the water necessary for their daily lives. So we are today falling into an absurd spiral, an absurd spiral on the American side. Absurd on the side of the states in the region, and all those who have been to Dubai once in their lives could not fail to notice how much Dubai is an anomaly in the Middle East. And in every culture, in every region, there are profound truths, truths of civilization. And when you want to build a city that reaches the sky, when you want to build a city of pleasure, well, it inevitably attracts covetousness, and you end up with the catastrophe that was quite easily predictable. So I believe there are also common-sense lessons to be learned for governments and for peoples, and we see very well how much this region has been driven by predation, the pursuit of profit, the pursuit of easy money, the pursuit and contempt for their own peoples very often, and in any case for any intellectual and cultural ideal, even if they tried to make up for it by building museums that very few people visited. So there is a moment of truth for this region today. Every region has a moment of truth. There is also a European moment, where we have arrived at the tragic weakness of our own leaders. That is to say, how much we, who have the chance to live in democracies, well, our vote, and I say this on the eve of the municipal and soon national elections, counts. And let's not vote for just anyone. Let's not vote in a rigged market. Democracy is not a farce, even if unfortunately the spectacle resembles a farce. We have seen that there are now indeed several fronts. There is of course what is happening in Iran-Tehran. We have seen the United Arab Emirates. There is obviously what is also happening in Lebanon. Again last night, Israel heavily struck Lebanon and Beirut in particular. We will go in a few minutes to a hotel in particular that was targeted. Israel claims that it was the presence of Hezbollah officials. How do you characterize, Dominique de Villepin, what is happening in Lebanon? It is first and foremost a humanitarian catastrophe and a political catastrophe. Lebanon, after last year's ceasefires, was starting to recover. It is true that Lebanon and the Lebanese government delayed in implementing all the terms of this agreement, and in particular the disarmament of Hezbollah. Hezbollah, which is an adjustment variable for Iranian policy, well, advantage has been taken of it to go even further by striking Israel again and thus giving Israel legitimacy to strike. The result is what the newspapers in this region say: it is both a suicide for Hezbollah and a suicide for Lebanon itself. But when we hear Israeli leaders tell us that they will transform the Dahieh suburb, the southern Beirut district, into Khan Younis, which was razed by Israeli bombs. – Is it an far-right Israeli minister who said that? – Yes, but a member of the government. – Exactly. – Well, I call for responsibility and I call for sanctions. I believe that our democracies must and can act. There are possible economic sanctions, there are possible political sanctions, there is the possibility of bringing the irresponsible to justice, and the irresponsible are not only Israeli. When I hear Mr. Peter Exekiel, Mr. Peter Exekiel explaining what is now Secretary of State for War, now Secretary for War, now explaining that he will disregard the rules of engagement, implicitly all the Geneva humanitarian conventions, well, his responsibility is directly engaged. We have not prosecuted, and this is a weakness of Western countries, we have not prosecuted Mr. George W. Bush and Mr. Tony Blair, we should have, because perhaps today the warning would have been heeded. And I want to make a proposal here, since multilateralism is condemned, which today does not have the chance to express itself. What is your proposal? My proposal is that from now on, we should provide, through a resolution of the United Nations General Assembly, since the Security Council is a principle of reparation. Any country that engages in an illegitimate, illegal intervention must pay the price for the reconstruction of what it has broken. We knew this in France: you break it, you repair it. Well, here, you destroy it, you repair it. And it is an invitation to explain to Mr. Trump and Mr. Netanyahu that what they are doing in Lebanon, what they are doing in the Middle East must have tangible consequences. And I think that in the same way, there is a principle of reparation. And I would be in favor of European countries including in their vote to approve and grant war powers. And I invite the Americans to do the same for the war powers granted to the President of the United States, which were not granted to Donald Trump. A clause that provides precisely for this financial responsibility for reparation and reconstruction in any war situation. You know, we are playing with the peoples of the world and dragging them into an endless spiral of endless war. And all of this. Look at our image, the one that serves as your background. All of this with Hollywood images and the music of Macarena. I'm sorry. War, war, it's not a game. And I regret that Walt Disney, Netflix, and all the American channels, as well as Hollywood, are being used to play the game of war. War is about suffering peoples. Let's remember what happened in Minab a few days ago, when 175 people died, including many children in schools. No one, neither the Iranians, nor the Europeans, nor civilized peoples, can close their eyes to this atrocity. And we know that those who are striking in Iran today have the capacity to carry out precise strikes. And that is where I recall that whether an intervention is legal or illegal, one is always bound by the proportionality of the means employed, by precaution, and by judicial responsibility. You are precisely mentioning the situation in Israel in Jerusalem. Stéphane Amar is one of our special envoys. Hello Stéphane, new alerts in Israel in the last few hours as well. So, new alerts with missiles fired from Iran, also rockets from southern Lebanon, but in both cases no damage or casualties because the missiles are intercepted or they fall in empty areas, which leads Israelis to say that Iran's ballistic capabilities are in free fall. According to the Israeli army, most of the missile launchers have been intercepted. There have also been destructions of missile launchers on the Lebanese side, in southern Lebanon and northern Lebanon in Lebanon, where there are reportedly two deaths on the Israeli side, including a soldier who was driving a bulldozer to clear debris in a village in southern Lebanon. So from the Israeli point of view, this campaign will continue, it should intensify. That's what Benjamin Netanyahu said yesterday. He congratulated himself on the military results obtained. He also congratulated himself on the fact that the coalition with the United States is holding firm and that he has the implicit or explicit support of several states, particularly the Gulf states, which are objectively siding with Israel. And finally, he announced to the Iranian people that this war is to lead to their liberation, because once the regime of the Mullahs falls, as this is one of Israel's objectives, it will be, says Benjamin Netanyahu, the advent of democracy in Iran. Thank you very much, Stéphane Amar, from Jerusalem. The special edition continues on BFM TV. We have just learned this morning, according to Lebanese authorities, that the new death toll from Israeli strikes in Lebanon amounts to 394 dead, 394 dead according to the authorities, thousands of displaced people. Let's recall that there are three geographical zones concerned in Lebanon. There is southern Lebanon, of course, where Israel wants to create a buffer zone. There is the southern suburb that they want to empty of its population, and there is also the Beqaa plain, not far from Syria. This means that it is a complete destabilization of the region. And France, as a friendly country, cannot simply stand by and make decisions. Precisely, that is the question I wanted to ask you, Dominique de Villepin. Is being a friend of a people not abandoning them to faits accomplis? That's what you wrote on X. Do you consider that Emmanuel Macron and France have abandoned Lebanon? I believe that France is missing the boat, missing history, first by not facing what is happening, and by not telling the United States and Israel the responsibility they are taking. Secondly, by not fighting on the European front to mobilize all actors. Imagine that in Europe, it is in Europe, it is Pedro Sanchez who is saving Europe's honor? Could not Mr. Macron... — So Pedro Sanchez, who refused that American planes take off from Spanish bases. — But because we know, we know what will happen. The catastrophe is not a surprise. The catastrophe is written. It is very tiring, you know, to be in my situation. For 25 years, I have been repeating the same thing. Some have wanted to consider that I had a "Warolien" moment at the United Nations. But unfortunately, and it is not my fault, this "Warolien" moment has lasted for 25 years. And unfortunately, it is not over yet because our leaders do not want to open their eyes. On Lebanon, Emmanuel Macron has made it known very quickly that he had contacted the authorities, that he had promised humanitarian aid. He himself is traveling to the region next week, starting Monday. The response is political, it is strategic. It is not just about traveling, playing the game of liqueurs, and sending humanitarian aid, even if it is very important. But it is about saying that sanctions will be imposed, about mobilizing to ensure that these sanctions are imposed. Imagine that the Finule was hit, Ghanaian soldiers. We have 700 French citizens. And if 10 of our compatriots had been killed in a strike by Israel, which considers itself to be in conquered territory, well, we refuse that. This idea that Israel now has no borders and can invade southern Lebanon, invade southern Syria, invade another neighboring country at any time. It is time for Israel to behave like a democracy and to behave like a state, period, while Israel's gamble is to multiply failed states in the region and from there intervene whenever it pleases. The normalization of the region passes through the creation of a normal Israeli state, that is to say with recognized borders, respecting the rule of law that applies to all others. Because in the end, the security at all costs that Israel is pursuing, which is convinced today that Mr. Netanyahu and unfortunately a large part of the Israeli people that they are moving towards more security. I say it very solemnly here. Again, they will be disappointed. This security will not be achieved. Why? Because no people in the world, in any region of the world, can accept faits accomplis, cannot accept the injustice of such strikes. We are feeding terrorism as we are feeding proliferation. The first lesson to be drawn from this intervention in Iran for any state in the world is to equip ourselves with nuclear weapons. And we will, and that is why I spoke of a global Vietnam, not only of a guerrilla that will spread internationally, but we are heading towards a destabilization of the world order through proliferation. And that is where the principle of responsibility, it does not consist only of making very beautiful speeches, very useful to the island, it consists of being ahead of events, and we know exactly what will happen. You know, geopolitics, diplomacy, it is not an art of divination, it is an art that is based on experience. Now, we either have this experience or we don't, and it is based, secondly, on principles. Some political leaders want to consider that international law is now useless because force dominates. But what does that mean? That in the law of the jungle, we must now submit to the abuses, to the illegal actions of one and all. But we are entering a world of the jungle, which is an insecure world for everyone. And tomorrow, the targeted assassinations that are used in the Middle East, why wouldn't they take place in Europe or in the United States? And what will we say? You know, the absolute rule of international law. No double standards. What is happening in the West Bank is unacceptable, what is happening in Lebanon is unacceptable. And the French President would be well-advised to say so firmly, clearly, and to take the lead of a coalition of peaceful, European states. Soon the Gulf states will open their eyes and will realize that they are being led into a catastrophe. And we see very well that their model is based on the economy, on finance, and on stability. Well, this model is dead. – You were talking about these images, we see them of destruction unfortunately in Lebanon, in southern Beirut. Clotilde Bigot, you are in Beirut, the strikes were particularly intense last night. – Yes, exactly. There were several strikes in southern Beirut, notably in the Harit-Tehrik district, around 3 a.m. But what is very important to note is this strike last night in a hotel in the heart of the capital, the hotel behind me. A strike, it was a single room that was targeted. There are 4 dead and about ten injured. And the target would be Iranian Revolutionary Guards. For now, we don't have more information on who exactly was targeted and if there were collateral damages, but what is certain is that the hotel is now empty except for the hairdresser on the ground floor who continues to welcome customers, because that's a bit what Lebanon is, that's a bit what Beirut is. There are bombings, there is a danger that now extends to the entire capital because we are very far from the southern strip. But life must go on and must continue despite this anxiety that remains a little bit here among all Lebanese. — Thank you very much, Clotilde Bégaud, from Beirut. It is 12:31 on FM TV, the special edition continues. We learned this morning that the supreme leader, the new supreme leader, would have been appointed by the Iranian authorities, but his identity is not yet known. Strikes again, you saw them just now in Beirut as well, in recent hours, where a hotel was hit, there were Hezbollah officials according to Israeli authorities, and then massive strikes throughout the night on Tehran and other regions of Iran, and in particular four oil depots were hit. What is striking in this war, as we have seen, is its regionalization. It is also a total war. We saw an American submarine sink an Iranian ship off the coast of Sri Lanka. We saw this aerial battle over Tehran. It is the return of total war. And yes, and what do we do if tomorrow, China decides to invade Taiwan? What does Mr. Trump do? Very nice, playing golf every week rather than being at his office, what does he do? You see very well that we are in an unprecedented global adventure. And every day, we are suspended, listening and watching a President of the United States who changes his mind three times a day and trying to interpret his thoughts. But we all know what we need to know about Donald Trump. The subject is not there. The subject is: what are we doing? His word, Donald Trump's word, has no importance, it is not performative. And the action of the United States, we know it perfectly well, it is a war of groping that they have engaged in, according to the good formula. An irresponsible war of groping. That is why the question, and I say this to the French President who is going to Cyprus, is today to know how he intends to protect the French. We have written about a rise in fuel prices that will not stop increasing, whatever happens in the coming weeks and undoubtedly in the coming months. First objective, allow me to try to give some advice, because we see that we are a bit behind the accelerator. First advice: we must cushion the rise in fuel prices and therefore plan to smooth out, to cap this rise in some way, and we can do it through the fuel tax. If the price of fuel exceeds 100 dollars, we must lower this fuel tax accordingly. And when the time comes, because we must be responsible in terms of public finances, when the price of oil falls below 60 dollars, we will increase, we will increase this fuel tax proportionally to reconstitute this fund. Secondly, it is important to think about the most exposed French households in our country, and in particular those who need a car to get around among the most modest. Here again, what is happening is a catastrophe for them. Well, let's ensure that for these households, aid, a guarantee, a guaranteed check can be provided through the municipalities to respond. And let's not wait for demonstrations in the cities of France. Let's not wait for the French to become impatient and angry. The art of government is to anticipate. And that is why, once again, I sense in Emmanuel Macron the desire to constantly wear the uniform of circumstances that allows him to play the role as best as possible. We are not at the cinema. A President of the Republic and a government are made to serve the French. And serving the French means being at your task. So obviously, it is less glorious. The images are perhaps less beautiful, but it is much more useful for our country. Patrick, I will give you the floor in a moment, where we will discuss the question of Donald Trump. You were talking about the deployment of forces indeed present in the region. Clémence Renard is with us. Hello Clémence. What are the French forces deployed in the region, very concretely? This is what Dominique de Villepin was just mentioning. The last dispatch of reinforcements on which the French army has communicated is this helicopter carrier Tonnerre. You see it in these archival images. It left the naval base of Toulon this Friday and is heading, like the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, to the eastern Mediterranean. It should arrive in the course of the week. It is accompanied by the frigate Courbet. It is an essential actor in force protection operations and it is the Swiss Army knife of the navy, it can participate in evacuation or even humanitarian missions. Let's take a closer look at its capabilities. It measures nearly 200 meters long. It has several helicopters, an onboard hospital with nearly 70 beds, and numerous accommodation capacities. It can carry, for example, an average of 177 sailors. It can also accommodate between 400 and 900 soldiers. What we also know about this helicopter carrier is that it had already been deployed to Beirut in 2020 during the port explosion. So this is in addition to other assets. Where is the famous Charles de Gaulle already, very concretely? Well, let's recall, its departure from Malmö in Sweden was announced by Emmanuel Macron during his speech last Tuesday. Well, it continues its journey at high speed towards the eastern Mediterranean, it will arrive by mid-week. What I can tell you is that it has about twenty Rafale aircraft, radar aircraft, and helicopters to carry out its missions. It is also accompanied by French and European frigates. And regarding the French military presence on site, we know that there were already about 750 French soldiers deployed in the United Arab Emirates, and since the beginning of this war, France has reinforced its protection system in the Middle East and Near East by sending, for example, Rafale aircraft in recent days, but also ground-to-air defense systems and anti-drone capabilities, and also what I can tell you is that two frigates are currently between the Red Sea and the Gulf of Oman to ensure the protection of maritime traffic and French interests in the region. Thank you very much, Clémence Renard. This information that we are receiving at the moment: the explosion that targeted the American embassy in Oslo. The police mention, I quote, a possible terrorist motive. We will have more on this, obviously, in the coming hours, but a possible terrorist motive. We were discussing, in particular, Donald Trump, Patrick, and this conduct of the war, Dominique de Villepin, who said "at a groping pace", indeed. Yes, you were talking about the wallet of the French. We saw the first figures in the United States with the gallon that will take a
fifty cents, that's going to be a lot for cars that are a bit greedy. I'm like you, I don't want to over-psychologize Donald Trump and do a daily chronicle of his own chaos. What is Donald Trump deeply looking for? He knew the price of gas was going to go up. He knew he was going to create indescribable chaos in that region. In your opinion, what is he deeply looking for by triggering this war? I'm surprised, Patrick Sausse, that you ask the question. Donald Trump is not a man of reason, he is a man of impulse. You really think so? I'm trying to detach myself from it. He is a man of impulse. And he sniffed out the good opportunity, just like in the Oval Office, he sniffs out good television. And that's what pleased him. He said to himself, there's a deal to be made here. We have intelligence. You know, it's a war based on a good tip. There was a very famous TV show, Hutschi, the good tips, Starsky and Hutch. Exactly. But there, he received a good tip at the same time as the Israelis, and the Israelis, moreover, very skillfully, said "I am the bait." And from there, he said to himself, "Well, this is a great opportunity. We're going to liquidate Ayatollah Khamenei." But the problem is that you can liquidate Ayatollah Khamenei, you can liquidate his successor and the one who comes after. That doesn't bring down the regime. This regime holds on in a cascade of structures, including the Revolutionary Guards, including the Basij, who are far more numerous than the few he killed in his bunker. They were convinced that by decapitating the regime, they were bringing it down. But should we punish heads of state for stupidity or ignorance? And believe me, there would be sanctions to be taken. Is there really no adult in the room, in the White House? Did you listen to Peter X7? Yes. I wasn't thinking of him in terms of an adult. Yes, but then who are you thinking of? Name me one. Name me one. And what you need to know, and this is where Europe must react, is that it doesn't stop there. They will open a front on Cuba if we don't stop them. And this is where Europe, Europe, has never reacted. And these are so many lost opportunities. We didn't react to the trade war. We didn't react to the digital war. We didn't react when Thierry Breton and a few others were sanctioned. Did we do it on Greenland? We did it by deploying a few individuals and we realized that symbols also weighed on the United States, and therefore we are not up to the task. You are the man who said no, you recalled it earlier. What does it mean to say no today to Donald Trump in 2026? To say no is to say no. 1. We will not participate in this war under any circumstances. We condemn it in all international forums and we draw the consequences, we sanction. We sanction Israel for initiating a tragic humanitarian situation in the Middle East today. We can take measures. You know, they always say, we are dependent. Yes, we are dependent for payment methods. We are dependent for digital warfare. But the Americans are also very dependent on us. Let's not underestimate our capabilities. And so I believe that the mere fact of having an exceptional council of Europeans gathered, with a martial speech, saying to the United States and saying to Donald Trump, "Mr. President of the United States, you are doing whatever you want. Today, you are fueling war in the world. Today, you are destabilizing Europe, you are destabilizing regions of the world, and we will no longer accompany you on this adventure." And that we draw the conclusions, that we stop buying F-35s, that we stop imagining that the United States will be there to help us. – But not all Europeans are in the position you are denouncing. – But that's precisely why I say we need France. I know all that. But in 2003, the Europeans were not in their vast majority on our side either. But the peoples of the world were with us. And that's how we must be able to strengthen the legitimacy of our words. And as the catastrophe unfolds, as I am telling you, in the end, the Europeans may have a chance to open their eyes and stop going to the Oval Office begging Donald Trump to grant them this or that. So clearly tell the United States that their war is illegal, that it is illegitimate, that it is ineffective, and that it is dangerous. Just that, coming from Mr. Macron. Well, excuse me, it would do good for the French, it would do good for the Europeans, it would do good for all the peoples of the world, and moreover, it would be true. To warn, as we did in 2003, the Americans that they are sowing disorder, sowing misfortune wherever they go. Well, I believe it is a salutary warning that a friend must allow himself in the face of the situation we are experiencing. Yet, here, we say the least possible, we act the least possible, we wander around and we refuse to take responsibility. You know, there is something to build on today. You asked me what to do regarding the United States. Let's build a grand coalition of democratic countries that oppose the vision of the United States and the vision that Israel defends today. Democracy is not the United States, and it is not Israel today. Well, let's embody this democracy, let's be the vanguard of a new multilateral organization, and I believe that many countries in the world are waiting for that. So Axel Meunier is one of our correspondents in the United States, in the state of Washington. Axel Meunier, Dominique de Villepin evoked the message that, in his eyes, France or the Europeans should send to Donald Trump. Donald Trump has spoken again in recent hours, if I'm not mistaken, it was on a plane returning from a trip. Axel Meunier, we see it, it's a maximalist discourse, he doesn't want to give anything up and no question of negotiating with the Iranians. Ah no, he was very clear on that, the time for negotiations is over. He was indeed speaking aboard Air Force One, the plane taking him to Florida where he will spend the weekend until Monday evening on his way back from the ceremony for the six American soldiers killed in Kuwait. So, thanks to what he considers, I quote, a large victory for the moment against the evil empire, Donald Trump says that the United States is clearly in a position of strength. We have, he says, considerable room for maneuver in negotiations, but we are not seeking an agreement. They would like to negotiate, not us. What was also interesting is that beside him was Steve Whitcoff, he is his envoy on the Iranian issue, he was present, he led the talks for the United States, and he gave some information about the negotiations as they happened before the strikes. This is obviously to be taken with caution, given that we are in a period of war, with a lot of propaganda on both sides. But Steve Whitcomb says that they did not seem very cooperative, they affirmed that they held an inalienable right to enrich uranium. They boasted of having enough enriched fuel at 60% to make 11 bombs. And they told me, we will not give you by diplomacy what you take by force. In short, Steve Wittkopf and Donald Trump are justifying the stronger and more intense strikes that are currently being carried out on Iran, because it is out of the question for the United States to return to the negotiating table for the moment. Thank you very much, Axel Meunier. From Washington, Dominique De Villepin heard our correspondent on Donald Trump's latest words, who explains that there will perhaps indeed be new shipments of orders on site and who even evokes the possibility of perhaps reshaping, Patrick, the borders of Iran, he says, Iran may not appear exactly as it did before the war. What does all this say? – But it says nothing sensible. It says that… – Except that he is the president of the world's leading power. – Today, the United States is in the hands of totally irresponsible people. Who is Mr. Witkow? Mr. Donald Trump's golf partner, a real estate specialist. Who is Mr. Jaret Kouchner who is negotiating with Mr. Wittkopf? It's his son-in-law. That's the American administration, that's American democracy, that's what runs the world, but it's revolting, it's revolting, it's revolting, and we talk to these people? Finally, there comes a point where we are forced to demand seriousness from the United States. The United States, this administration is not serious, and I believe we must tell them so. And furthermore, Mr. Witkoff in the narrative on the negotiations does not say exactly what happened because we know through other channels, and particularly through the Omani channel, that the Iranians were ready to make very many sacrifices and that an agreement was possible. So, here we have at least several versions. So today, this umpteenth version from characters who are not very recommendable characters, and the world that goes on so calmly, and everyone is a partner, all the world leaders are partners and accept this farce. I think we French need to take a step back and examine our responsibility and live up to our destiny. We have a historical fidelity to uphold regarding France's word. I remember what the Americans said, what the French said to the Americans in 1965. I grew up with General de Gaulle's speech in Phnom Penh, warning the Americans that they would end up in coffins in Vietnam. That's exactly what happened. And I believe we have this duty to alert. America continues to reassure itself, but even if Mr. Trump invents a pirouette tomorrow to say he won and leaves. Today, wanting to recompose Iran, but question the Iranian people. Question the Iranians in Paris, the Iranians in Washington. Do they want to see their country cut into pieces? That is Donald Trump's vision, and that is the logic that Benjamin Netanyahu is defending today throughout this region. We fragment, we cut, and we dispose. That, that, that vision is unacceptable to the democratic governments of the world and to the peoples. That is the logic of the lawnmower. We do what we want. And what does Mr. Donald Trump want in the end? Well, we do business. Why is he doing nothing in Ukraine? Because he wants to do business in Russia. Why is he intervening in Iran? Because he wants to do business with Iranian oil. And so we dispose of peoples and their resources. And look at Donald Trump's geopolitics. Venezuela, the Congo, each time, it's the world's resources. It's a predatory regime. And the Americans are complicit today in an imperial situation that profoundly destabilizes the world without any guarantee or prospect of a political vision. Let's not look for a political vision by questioning Donald Trump. There is none. And that is why we must speak loudly and clearly, because we must, and it is our role, think about the world when America despises the world and no longer thinks about it. — In a few moments, we will head to the Lebanese border, we will find Nicolas Kouadou. — Yes, in two words. Just a few weeks ago, the Trump administration spoke of the imminence of a nuclear program as a weapon of mass destruction, I use these words deliberately. Today, they are justifying, perhaps even with some lies, the use and entry into war, like a Colin Powell, nearly 25 years ago. American holdings, I'm thinking in particular of BlackRock, that was the case in 2003 in Iraq, all of that has already happened. In light of, not to go back to your name and France's opposition, didn't it end up not working, obviously, it was an incredible quagmire for the Americans. What made it so that at one point, we returned to a semblance of international law? Or, we are not at all in a comparative, I would say, reasonable. There is a useful comparison to be made, even if the two situations have nothing to do with each other. American legitimacy is obviously even less than that of the Bush administration in 2003, since they did not have the agreement of Congress, whereas they had the agreement and a vote of Congress. In 2003, they tried to go through the United Nations. And a very interesting point to note, in 2003 they attempted a grand coalition that far exceeded the United States and was a coalition with European countries and states from around the world. Today, they are alone with Israel. It's a unilateral action by two, if I may say so, but it's a solitary action, and it's clear that this is what kills the legitimacy of this action, it's that this action is based on the idea that power can do anything. But it must be repeated and repeated. Power cannot do everything when it doesn't know what it wants and it doesn't know where it's going. It mobilizes against itself, on the contrary, all the peoples of the world, all the resentments, all the spirits of revenge, and it fuels the cycle of violence. What I'm saying is not very complicated to understand. I've been explaining it for 25 years, and for 25 years, starting with France, no one wants to hear it. In the meantime, we had the war in Libya. Thank you, Mr. Sarkozy. In the meantime, we had the war in the Sahel. Thank you, Mr. Hollande. Thank you, Mr. Macron. And it was only when we were kicked in the backside by the Africans that we understood that we had to leave. Honestly, there is something surprising in the way we are led. We will go immediately to Israel, but only a few kilometers from the Lebanese border. Nicolas, hello Nicolas. What is the situation in this zone, which is obviously extremely tense? Hello. Yes, we are in Metula with Julie Roseur, to be precise. 400 meters from the Lebanese border, which you can see just behind me, the village of Kfar Khilar, the first Lebanese village near the border. As you can see, it's no longer really a village, it's totally a field of ruins. A field of ruins because it's a village that was completely razed during the previous offensive by the Israeli army. What we can tell you, we arrived here about an hour ago, is that we hear, we feel that there is this Israeli offensive inside Lebanon. Why? Because we saw tanks, including Israeli army tanks, patrolling in this village. We are really very close to the border. We also hear a lot of artillery fire, and that confirms the information that the Israeli army continues to advance inside Lebanon. There are notably new villages that have been the subject of a new evacuation order from Tsaal, villages that are now located north of the Litani River. Very little information is getting through about what is happening inside Lebanon, in southern Lebanon. But what we know from reliable sources is that at least 5 soldiers have been seriously wounded. Tsaal soldiers yesterday, also civilian deaths. Several dozen, that's what the Lebanese media are reporting. Israel is therefore still leading its front against Hezbollah here in southern Lebanon and continues to advance. Kouadou with Julien Reuser on the ground, thank you very much. Just now, it's the Pope, we're learning, who is praying, I quote, "for the din of bombs to cease in the Middle East and for dialogue to resume." What struck me in what you told us, Dominique de Villepin, is that you said that a new Vietnam is in the process of unfolding. It's a new Vietnam that is unfolding. The geopolitical consequences, and I'm not just talking about Iran, I'm talking about global geopolitics, it's the confrontation between those who advocate imperial violence today and all the other states that are likely to mobilize against this imperial violence in an asymmetric violence that can erupt anywhere in the world. We are today in the hands of those who will decide to settle scores all over the planet. If North Korea decides to play with its neighbors, if, to speak of a major state, China decides to strike Taiwan, if somewhere in Africa, a state decides to invade its neighbor. Will the United States endlessly multiply interventions or, on the contrary, do nothing? We see that we are in a logic of powerlessness. We are being overwhelmed by a cycle of violence that we are unable to control. The devil has come out of the box, a bit like toothpaste out of the tube. And we are trying to manage to put the devil or the toothpaste back in the box. It's Mission Impossible. Who is the devil? Mission impossible. The devil has come out of the box. Who is the devil? The devil is stupidity. It is stupidity that is carrying us away today and governing the world, even though we are not reacting. It is the lack of culture shown by Donald Trump today. It is the ignorance of realities, it is the absence of historical practice, it is the absence of experience. We are facing novices, amateurs, people who are not responsible for what they are doing. And the entire system of international law was created so that those who take these risks pay for them. And that is why I say, and I repeat, there must be a principle of reality. There must be a principle of gravity that pays, and we Europeans, who have experienced everything in our history, I will not bring up barbarism, wars, and the rest. Well, we have a duty, and that is to tell all the peoples of the world that this adventure is dangerous and that we refuse to participate in it. Precisely, you speak of a principle of reality. Is the principle of reality? You speak a lot about power since the beginning of this program. Isn't it about saying that today, France is a medium power, that it cannot have the same role as before, and that the difficulty, precisely, for the President of the French Republic today, in intervening in this conflict, is that ultimately, we watch the bullets fly, we can't do much. But first, we have principles. We can recall them, we can defend them. And moreover, when the world falls silent, when world leaders do not have the courage to state the reality of what is happening, isn't it France's role to be the country that has the courage, the lucidity, the spirit of responsibility to speak for the world? But you know, that's France's vocation. And I dream that we will be able to resume this role simply because France, without pride, is nothing. And look at how much we are rolling in the mud of history, when the movement that is leading today, the political movement leading in France, nearly 40% of French people are preparing to vote for this movement. – So you're talking about the National Rally? – I'm talking about the National Rally, poorly named. It calls itself national, while it is a movement of submission to empires, submission to the United States, submission to Russia. A movement that calls itself social, while we see that everything in the National Rally's economic program is drifting towards liberalism, even ultra-liberalism. A movement that calls itself popular, while we see that it is a movement that increasingly serves the elites today and is blind to the suffering of the French. And then, it is a movement today that claims to defend the interests of our country, we see well that they are absent. So I make no reproach to Marine Le Pen and Mr. Bardella, because they have no experience, because they have never held any responsibility in active politics. But I reproach them for not having the humility to acknowledge that there are historical mechanisms at work, which means they will be overwhelmed and swallowed whole by their own ideology, which is a racist, anti-Semitic, and xenophobic ideology. And today, we are looking for other scapegoats. Let's not be mistaken, the far-right has something in its history that will not change, it is the logic of escalation, it is the logic of denunciation and exclusion. Are we today at a historical moment where we must seek to exclude part of the national community? We are, on the contrary, at a moment where we must unite, unite. And the President of the Republic would be well inspired to put into practice this vocation of unity for the doubts that are expressed. And we see that anti-Semitism will redouble as a result of this war. Let us prepare to face it. Anti-Semitism is an unacceptable scourge. And we see today that it is the risk of division, of fragmentation, and ultimately of a victory for the National Rally through chaos, through the nullity of other political parties. And faced with that, we must stand up, I say this as a former political leader. I say it, and that is the reason for my return to politics. And I think that every citizen today must stand up in their town or village or countryside to say no to this destiny, which is certainly not the French destiny. Dominique Villepin, this escalation you describe continues at this moment. It's a series of explosions that are heard in Tel Aviv after an Iranian missile alert. Stéphane Amard, you are in Jerusalem. These alerts continue across the country in recent hours. Yes, absolutely. I heard a very strong explosion here in the sky over Jerusalem. It is very likely the interception of an Iranian missile, as alerts sounded in Tel Aviv, 70 km from here. But generally, when alerts sound in Tel Aviv, the missile is intercepted well in advance, which means it must have been intercepted not far from here. Indeed, the attacks continue, but at a much less sustained pace than at the very beginning of the war, 80% fewer attacks according to the Israeli army compared to the first days of the war a week ago. And also less precise attacks with missiles that have fallen on fields, areas devoid of population. The same goes for missiles fired from Hezbollah, which also put the north of the country under additional pressure. On the other hand, life is gradually returning to normal here, especially at Tel Aviv airport, where there are more and more flights, not only repatriation flights for Israelis who wanted to return to their country, but also flights from Tel Aviv to other destinations, even though Benjamin Netanyahu has indicated that military operations will intensify in Iran and Lebanon until the fall of the mullahs' regime, the fall of the Islamic Republic. That's what the Israeli Prime Minister said last night. Thank you very much, Stéphane Amar, from Jerusalem, as a series of explosions are currently being heard in Israel, particularly in Tel Aviv, following an Iranian missile alert. We were talking about, you were talking about Dominique de Villepin a few moments ago, French pride, the act of standing up to the United States. As we said, Emmanuel Macron. This is information that Patrick Saut gave us a few moments ago. He will go to Cyprus tomorrow. The aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle has arrived in the Mediterranean. The head of state said he wanted to develop a plan to stop the operations of Hezbollah, but also of the Israeli army in southern Lebanon. How do you characterize Emmanuel Macron's actions so far in this crisis? Are they up to par in your eyes? – The ambitions of the same time, which consist of saying everything and its opposite in the same sentence and acting in one direction, then the next day in another, have created profound confusion. He says everything and its opposite? Confusion in the minds of the French, confusion in the minds of the Europeans, and confusion in the minds of the world. You know, clarity is an absolute requirement when you are head of state. And while there must be moderation, there must also be firmness in the moderation that is expressed. There is even a sort of necessary form in today's world, which is a simple world in 140 characters, in a few formulas, a form of radical moderation that is indispensable. And that is where we must pay attention to everything we say. I said it, I said it to La France Insoumise. When there are puns, when there are too many words, when there are ambiguities, when there is proximity to violent movements, well, we don't let it pass. But here, what the President of the Republic says is not clear. No, it's not clear. Because once again, the President of the Republic is not expected to go around visiting everyone today. He is expected to define a strategy with his European counterparts. It's not about waving the flag everywhere in Cyprus and elsewhere. It's about mobilizing, it's about speaking out, it's about explaining to the French, because he has been stingy with explanations to the French, by laying down the principles that are ours, by laying down the rule that is ours, without any ambiguity about the nature of the deployment that is currently in this region. Is there ambiguity at the moment, in your opinion? There is always the risk of ambiguity when one plays with matériel and military matters. The ambiguity that existed in France's African policy over the last 10 years was that we said there was no Franco-African policy, there was no more France-Africa, and at the same time, the only policy that existed in Africa was the deployment of our military. So we must be coherent, send the right signals, hold the right discourse, defend the right principles. And if you allow me, Guillaume Daray, I would like to end on a slightly softer note. I took the liberty a few hours ago of publishing on social media a text by a great Sufi Persian poet from the 12th century, the poet Attar, called The Conference of the Birds. Well, The Conference of the Birds is a beautiful metaphor for our world and, unfortunately, for what is happening in Iran. Division, indifference. And then suddenly, the great journey begins. And these great birds that set off in large numbers find themselves, they find themselves 30 near the goal. To discover the truth behind their adventure, it is that these 30 birds, well, they are those who embody unity. They are those who embody the future, and they are in search of a king, and they discover that the king is themselves. Well, the French, rather than waiting for the man or woman of destiny, let them wake up and discover that the king is them, it's not me, it's not the neighbor, it's not Louis XIV, it's no one today who can embody that. What we can embody, however, in French fidelity, is to embody eternal France, demanding France, France that must perpetuate itself in the future, capable of carrying a strong word, a strong demand, and a torch that continues to illuminate Europe and the world. Thank you very much, Dominique de Villepin, for being our guest for this special edition. Thank you, Soazic, thank you, Patrick. You are of course staying on BFM TV, the special edition continues in a moment.